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spin it again because john has john has joined us so we have uh jane john sim and we have dino michael bibor tony and there we are and cut and right okay so where are you going okay so starting from the fact that you already are that i'm gonna just press this one and also reminding that there is no teaching there is no teaching here non-duality is not a teaching the idea that there is something to learn that there is something to understand or something to get is frankly misguided because everything that you can get or understand or learn is just a recording in the mind and as bob was hammering down i think we have picture here behind us also uh what bob was hammering down the answer is not in the mind the mind can't get it so whatever is being explained uh whatever is being understood whatever is being uh grasped it's not it it's it's not worthy of pursuing it's not the non-duality and non-duality is just a word there is there is no thing called non-duality non-duality is a word that is pointing uh to that which is beyond words and beyond objects beyond experiences beyond any expressions it is that one could say basic space of phenomena or unified field of all possibilities or cognizing emptiness or space-like sky-like awareness or just ordinary sense of presence ordinary awareness of existence sometimes they call it sat treat ananda which is just a description again but this is a description that is bringing back the reminder that sat is consciousness and there is no one unconscious right now and people may say yes but i was unconscious a couple of weeks ago i had a surgery not now not now right now when you look when you investigate and then you will notice that it's always now two weeks ago is just a thought it's just a mental image it's a projection one could call it a memory but where is it where does it have any location or existence so the consciousness is always present whenever you look you can assume or imagine absence of consciousness but that assumption or imagination is just a thought in that conscious awareness right now so sad cheat such cheat ananda being consciousness please so being is sad cheat is consciousness being is obvious we can't even really grasp it but we can't deny it so we can't deny it to actually be conscious uh you have to exist and you can't separate being conscious from from existence again one could say yes but i am existing but in the sleep at night but i'm not conscious of being asleep and i have no memories of that not now and welcome we have anand joining us on zoom and welcome to those who are on facebook live with us so such a consciousness so sad cheat ananda back again being presence existence uh that is clear and obvious for everyone there is no one who is doubting their own existence there is no one who says i believe i exist oh i'm not sure but i kind of yes i kind of agree with that no to even believe or to agree or to disagree that the presence of the existence is already there and that existence So again, those are words.
You could say there is no being, but you have to be there to say it. You can say there is no consciousness. Again, you have to be conscious of that to say it. And there really doesn't mean, it doesn't mean that there is a you who is present or you who is conscious or you who has preference for existence. That only comes when we assume, when we use the dualistic language. So I am versus I am not, or I am conscious versus I am unconscious. It always refers to some alleged I. And that I only exists in the language. If you look at the birds or insects or reptiles, they don't say I.
They are one with existence. They are just life moving, moving through the body as the body, moving as breath, moving as blood flow. It's just life. There is no idea that this is me versus something else not being me. So in language, necessarily, because this is a symbolic language, duality sits in. So when we say I exist, I am conscious, and I prefer to be happy and alive, that assumes that there is an I to which all those aspects relate. And the hard question, is there an I? And we can look at it and see that yes, obviously, everyone says I. They are bodies. There are spaces between the bodies.
There is a seeming separation, just like there are cars on the road. There is a car and no car. There's a body and no body. There is a thought and no thought. So it does appear separately. Every thought appears separate. Every feeling appears separate. When I feel sad, I don't feel joy. When I feel hatred, I don't feel love or whatever. They kind of come and go like winter, summer, like day, night, like up and down. Everything seems to appear interchangeably as if they had separate existence. But that's just the appearance. That appearance is here because I am. If I wasn't here, I wouldn't be here.
If I wasn't here, I wouldn't be here. If I wasn't here, I wouldn't be here. If I wasn't here, none of that could appear because I am conscious. So all the appearance of duality, even the appearance or the assumption or a belief of having someone inside this body, some little dwarf, some little tiny fairy that is believing to be in charge, to have free will, to have control, even that is an appearance because I'm here, because I'm conscious. If I wasn't here and I wasn't conscious, that appearance. That idea of having some little agency inside couldn't even be possible. So now the idea of agency, how this came about.
It came about again through the language, which is a wonderful evolutionary advantage of this particular species. I mean, other species use language also. Birds use signals and practically all species, including even fungi and mushrooms. And my. I see you as they communicate in some way or another, but they predominantly communicate about current present conditions. They, as far as we can tell, don't imagine timeline in which they existed before birth or they had childhoods or they will exist after they die. That that capacity, that incredible capacity to imagine the timeline in the present moment. And believe it real. Seems to be only a product of symbolic language because I can conceive of yesterday.
I can conceive of tomorrow and I have symbols. Those words are symbols that represent time other than now and a place other than here. So because of the conceptual language and because of the navigational purposes, if there is time other than now and place other than here, and this particular body might move through that time and space. Then for a convenience, we gave it a label. We called it Katarina. We called it a woman or man or little boy or good girl or whatever we call it. And because that label doesn't really come near to the mystery of aliveness and the consciousness, we we again, this is an autopilot function.
We we again, this is an autopilot function. The mind builds up and adds to that conceptual image, adds memories, adds traumas, adds little stories, adds preferences, tastes. And it creates the compelling personality with rich life, like a hero journey. And it's beautiful. Though am I this? Or am I the consciousness? Or am I the light in which this shows up? That's that's the question. And someone's joining us. Hi, Charlie. So and this is where this is where non duality. So we got Charlie joining us. You can say hi to zoomers. Yeah. Okay. So so that's that. This is where. A non duality divorce most of the other philosophies and cults and sects and religions.
And we do not go with preconceived notions. We do not agree upon terms. We look into direct experience. We use language. We use pointers. We may within the small group that we are sharing the message, we may agree that a particular way of describing is resonating better. And we. using Bob's language because somehow it proved helpful and it resonated. Doesn't mean other ways of presenting it will not be equally or more helpful for people with other sort of a tuning of frequency. But what is the main predicament of the non-duality is to verify your own direct experience, is to look for yourself. Just see where the pointer is pointing.
Don't worry about the wording and look for yourself. And what are you looking? First of all, are you here? Are you here? Are you present? Are you alive? Are you conscious? Are you aware? Or are you perhaps, like Bob would say, are you unaware? Are you unconscious? No, you can't say that. So now the idea even of the non-duality is to look for yourself. And what are you looking for? First of all, are you here? Are you aware? Are you conscious? Is already kind of suggesting the line of investigation, pointing out that there is a you. But now we know there is a presence of consciousness, there is a presence of awareness, there is a presence of aliveness.
And language points out that this presence is experienced here in this body-mind. And this body-mind has been given a label. And apart from the label, it has been given a label. And apart from the label, it has been given a label. And apart from the label, it has been given a label. And apart from the label, it has also coiled a conceptual image of what it is. So everyone has a concept about themselves, what they are. I'm a woman, I'm Australian, or I'm Polish, or I'm tall, or I'm short, or I am kind, or I am whatever, Scorpio or something else. And my personality is E-I-N-F-G or whatever, or my diagram type is this and that.
So those ideas consist of a concept of what it is. And so I'm a woman, I'm or build up to a conceptual image, which is again used for navigational purposes. And if we look at the cultural conditioning, those conceptual images, I think we were discussing that yesterday, people who actually join the groups and they compare what they like, which conspiracy theory, which religion, what type of vocation, what type of lifestyle. And based on those similar likes and dislikes, they create communities. And communities and tribes bring up joy and safety and increase the chances for survival. So this storytelling capacity for humans is a beautiful capacity.
And David is joining us on Zoom. So welcome, David. And it's a beautiful capacity, but it is also confusing because in using the idea of conceptual image in reference to myself, for day in and day out, all life long, every day of week and every day of a year, somewhat the belief, the energy solidifies, and it feels as if there was the conceptual image is what or who I am. I am the conceptual image. I like this ice cream. Or I get anxious in these situations. Or I prefer this type. of music this is who i am this is me this is just me so as helpful as it is the question of the preferences or the question of the capacities of your vehicle of expression uh is more or less like you were describing your costume or like you were describing your car or you were describing your dwelling place perhaps only perhaps this conceptual image is another appearance arising in awareness and you are not this image you are not the description you are witnessing the description you are registering the description you are aware of that description and you are prior to it so this is where where the serious investigation starts if i for a moment push that conceptual image and concept of what i am or who i am aside do i disappear without the idea that i'm a person i'm a woman i'm the body is the presence gone is that presence depending on the description of what i am or who i am and without that that description how is that being going bob would put it out in a beautiful one-liner what's wrong with right now if i don't think about it and that is in relation to dramas and stories that this individual takes as mine i don't have enough money my body is is aging i am unhealthy my partner doesn't love me or i had trauma i've been abused so those are problems and all of them you you'll soon see but perhaps you know already exist only when you think about them when there is no thought there is no problem even if the body is uncomfortable if there is no thought that the body shouldn't be uncomfortable well there is no problem it's just uncomfortable uncomfortability and one could say is just what is so uh one step further which bob would usually take that line of investigation what's wrong with right now if i don't think about it nothing no problem well but you still don't have money right well now when i don't think about it i can't say it and cancer if i don't think about it not can't conceive of it so it's nothing wrong and have you stopped being have you stopped seeing have you stopped breathing existence did it go anywhere consciousness is it absent Diet ceiling your head to the chair why do you have toonder what are you thinking not in our mind but believe me you are doing the right thing i am leaving your body since everything is sexual when it was a system but my couch is my own family can see us when i am in our especially not transbatus or the conscious i miss my body and i am constantlyware which is just for you is right don't leave this up by alive and what that body is it closed up with the opinions that i wanted to important Is it absent?
So in this moment you realize that without the story of you, without the problems associated with the drama of you, existence is still shining of its own. Consciousness registering, witnessing is still present. Seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling is happening. But there is no costume, there is no concept. You wanna jump in? No. No? Just listening. Okay. I wish you did. And anyone in that manner, you know, it's like, I forget to tell it in the beginning, I love being interrupted. I love the investigation line to being taken anyway, just for that to be wild and spontaneous. And so anyway, without the thought, without the conceptual image, without the idea of who I am, I still am.
I don't know who I am. If I don't visualize, the size of my body, if I don't memorize and bring up the picture of my face, I have no body, I have no face. Yeah, yeah, but my butt is hurting. No, there is no butt hurting. That was a joke. That was a metaphor. I don't want you to think about getting worse. Okay. Okay. If there is any pain. Okay. Back off of soft pressure. Yeah. Thank you. It's not located necessarily on the surface of my bum. It's just the surface. That's it. Brilliant. Thank you. So if there is a pressure present in any point that one could or mind could visualize as the location, mind could localize as the place where the body touches the heart surface or something like that, without that mental projection, or mental image, you can't even call it pain or pressure.
There's a sensation present. And that sensation, mind straight away comes in and interprets. The sensation is in this distance, in this size, in this location. But without that mental processing, again, there is the presence. There is an existence and there is an appearance. And the appearance, consists of visual field, of sensory field, of auditory field, of all sorts of different rainbow of expressions or experiences, including imagination. Everything that appears in that presence is just an appearance. It comes and goes. And you can see the appearance of me as a body when I hold the mental image. Today might be different. And 15 years ago, the appearance of my face in the memory also might be different than when I was five year old.
Which one is right? Yeah, I've just said in the past that when I was like heavily watching Korean dramas, then, you know, when I think of like the face here, an image of a young Korean boy's face pops up, you know. Wow. You have another tiny? No, that's actually, that's brilliant. I mean, you could pop in a face. Actors would probably know all about it, you know, putting different masks, putting different costumes. And there are people who are very, very proficient in role playing also. They will have a different facial expression and different tone of a voice, being teachers at school and completely different ones speaking to their dominating bosses or parents.
They will be different towards the children. So many different eyes, different roles, different personas projected out into the world. How different is the behaviour? Like if you even think of a conceptual image that other people might have of you, you know, the local policeman or the pharmacy guy, or perhaps a child from a neighbourhood. So which concept is right? And if you think of the experience of you, having experience of yourself, you having when you sleep at night, it's yet different, different costume, different mask, different concept, different idea. But what is the common denominator? What is there that never changes? Regardless of the idea, I'm good, I'm bad, I'm inferior, I'm superior, I'm happy or I'm ugly or I'm not good enough.
What's the common denominator? What is always there, regardless of those appearances or those ideas? Is the presence, that you are always here to see it. And Svetlana says, Hi, Kat, miss you, darling. Oh, great to hear from you, sweetheart. And missing you too. And Jyoti says, we are all accomplished methods actors. Yeah, what a show, isn't it? What an incredible dream. So the common denominator in all those phenomenal world in amongst the arising of conceptual images, of visual fields, of sensations, imaginations, past and future is the presence, the witnessing. There is always that existence aware. The awareness is always there, aware of what is arising.
And the presumption. But that one is not constant. If you look closely, the presumption that this is me, that little mini person watching it. This is not constant. It feels like it might feel like it's been constant. I'm 60 years old and it's been there since I was ten. Yes, but before it wasn't. You weren't born with that. So the idea that there is someone watching, that there is a person looking comes from the language. If you see, and again, Bob has had this beautiful demonstration of how in direct experience, the seer, the person looking cannot exist apart from the field of seeing. It is singular experience of seeing.
You are seeing, there is seeing happening. And in that seeing, the content of the seeing is arising simultaneously with the seeing. Simultaneously with the person looking. And if you look at your dream, when you're dreaming, the content of the dream is simultaneously arising with the viewpoint, a perception, a point in perception from which the looking happens. Can there be a seeing if there wasn't an assumed point of perception? Where would you be looking from? If you were looking from every possible direction, you would see nothing. Because. The slides would just overlap and the light wouldn't go through. So the consciousness, the presence experiencing and expressing itself as seeing.
Contains the seer and the seeing. If you remove the seer, there's no point of perception. So seeing is impossible. If there is no arising, if nothing arises, then obviously seeing doesn't make sense. So it is one singular process which has been split. For the language, because of the symbolic language, for the navigational purposes. I'm seeing from here. Michael or Tibor or Tony or Charlie, I think from there, everyone is looking at the same computer and different angles. One can see Dino's left profile, another one can see the right profile. Those are point of perception. The consciousness is assuming different point of perceptions. And like Tony beautifully described, you know, it can assume a young 25 year old Korean boy.
Like Nisargadatta had this beautiful, cute idea of relaxing the attention so completely. To assume other points of perception. Dino is proficient in becoming a deer or magpie or kookaburra, even speaks the bird's language. But anyone who's got mirror neurons can experience a glimpse of other points of perception. Nisargadatta was explaining it through putting two fingers together. And he says, you know, if you relax the attention, you must just identify for the heck of it with this one. This is you. And this is the finger touching. And then turn around. Yeah. Then what? Baratnerkian. That's Indian dancing. There you go. Yeah, just one time I was like freezing at a train stop late at night.
And then, you know, and yeah, and it's just feeling cold. It's like, oh, what's one way of not like feeling the annoyance of the cold? And then I just, you know, what is that cold? And then when you actually really sit with what the feeling was, it wasn't cold. It sort of came down to like sort of lead like material. I've got the feeling of like a lead like material. And I think maybe one other thing. But yeah, the cold definitely went away and the annoyance went away with that too. So it's just interesting. It didn't go further than that. Like it didn't just pep you.
But yeah, there's all sorts of things. It's just like sit with it. Let go of a notion, like the notion of cold went away. I don't ever feel like I'm doing this stuff. It's just this. The notion came to sit with that. The notion. It wasn't even too sit with that. But the notion popped up. What's there if there's no cold? It was not cold. And then the notion of like heavy lead like something sense feeling of something heavy lead. I don't know. It was a notion, I guess. It came in maybe a visual strongly visual here. So a visual probably popped in a bit too.
It might have been the second one, but it's years ago. I can't remember. The memory is not coming up of what. Was there beyond that lead like sense. But definitely the notion that this is cold and I don't like it had gone. Cold had gone. Yeah, that's as far as it went. Yeah. Yeah. Take a nice bath. That might have been the night then when actually for the entire trip home. Other thoughts didn't come in. Yeah, that might have been not many other thoughts really came in and no annoyances came back until I got home. Yeah, it's about an hour's trip. Because you can't intentionally.
You can't visualize things. You can visualize protection or whether it just happens spontaneously. And because the mind is on a completely different track, you don't feel the cold anymore. Yeah. And also like here, there's more of a seems to be more of an interest to clearing out like what's there when that's not doing that kind of negative detailing kind of thing. But yeah, sometimes like a visualization pops in. You know, like daily sort of does. There's usually some clearing process taking place. And so like actually while I've been sitting here most of the time I've been doing this has been happening to. But in this time it was like almost the clearing and the notion might pop up.
What's it about? It might not. And the notion was like, oh, it's this heavy mother, mother, you know, hive thing that sort of had this heavy thing here. But you know, some visual might pop up like there's a bit of a, oh, let's stick it all in a bag and then, you know, purify it, whatever. But it's not a sense I'm doing any of that shit. It's just these little processes of pop and pop and pop and pop. And that's it. It's just life. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just a reminder. I like the way you kind of make it visual. Popping, popping, popping. That's exactly because visual set up here.
So I guess back and back. Sorry. In visual language. But it's just the notion that it shows up. You know, it shows up some one way or another. And artists that are heavily into their art and scientists, you know, say that came from nowhere. I don't know where that came from. It was a surprise. And they're being very connected to what's only there. You know? Yeah. And that's not just visual. I think it is equally relatable for very kinesthetic kinesthetically oriented people. Yeah. It's just things show up, things show up. But we would say show up. And for them, things are arising, being experienced. Yes.
Yes. Whether it is a perception or there is a sensation or there is a concept, whether it is a mental image or yeah. And still, that's the experience. No one knows what's the next mental image or the next thought going to be. No one knows what's the next sensation or projection is going to be. So it is really just being present to whatever is arising. And this is the secret of a life without psychological suffering. Being present. Whatever is arising. Now the unpleasant or uncomfortable sensation, projection, or maybe anxious mental image comes up being present to that mental image with the attitude of discovery, of curiosity rather than.
Yes. And I suppose if you're going to like being present, almost got a positive tone to it rather than a negative removal aspect to it. So I guess if you shifted it to a removal aspect, then it would be like. You know, just not being present to something else, I suppose. I don't know. Good point. Yeah. Let's call attention. Yes. Yeah. Everything that's been discussed like can't exist without the attention. And then in some ways, attention can become like a positive thing. So without attention, it's really just I don't know. See, right now there's very little there, but I guess when there's more so called more there.
Of course, because everything's just the same anyway, whether it's seemingly full or seemingly empty, it's still really you can't say that that's different. But I suppose when it's seemingly full, there is more there and more thoughts of it being something solid, I suppose. Yeah. When you start looking for it, Tony, that's when you lose the reverie. The reverie is just letting it fly. Start looking doesn't really happen, though. It's either in that reverie, like you say, with a very little or there's just like busy, more solid and more angst. Yeah. There's a line there, but I won't say it. Oh, Mike. Mike. It's lovely to say all of that.
Maybe if you know all the answers, I know every answer you're going to give me. I know everything you're going to say. Because I can say it myself and I even can see it and experience it and feel it myself. But sometimes you just get completely lost in it. And it's like mind is like these blocks that you're stuck in. It doesn't matter how hard you try to stay aware of that. It's like you're trapped in it. It's like a whole energy goes down that path. Now that you've said that, Mike, I will say it. Mental masturbation. Not that anybody does it. It's not that you don't get it.
It's not that you don't get it either, though, because it's not like you haven't experienced it, you don't know the truth of it. You've got all of that, right? But it's not like, oh, I'm speaking on duality and therefore speaking, it doesn't mean anything. Like, it's the experience of it. It's the experience of that whatever it is that never changes. But despite all of that, sometimes it's just you're there. It's a solid conceptual cage. Like a cage, like a prison of thought. And then you're responding to that. And then you're creating all this stuff around you. And I even know the answer. As a ruler, man's a fool.
Because the bars are created of mist of clouds. But it doesn't feel like that. And even when you say you know that it's just what it is, you know it's going to pass. You know there's something aware of it, but it doesn't make it easier. Yes. So the question is, who cares? And I don't want to be rude, but you see the subtle expectation. There is a subtle idea that things should get easier in the future, that I'm not doing everything right, because if I did, the focused mode wouldn't be happening anymore. It's like if you look at the animals, the way they live, like kakabaras in the forest, there is a time when they just sit and bask in the sun.
And there is a time when they run for their life or they go nesting. Or they're absolutely completely focused on diving for that little bug underground, or competing, or fighting the war, which family is going to own the territory. The time for basking and the time for laser-focused attacks, the time for basking and the time for laser-focused attacks, the time for basking and the time for laser-focused attacks, the time for basking and the time for laser-focused attacks, is self-regulated. The idea that it should always be one way and not the other is to be questioned, because that idea is also what is arising. And that idea is so charged and is so loaded, because it comes from the loving-to-be filtered by the mind, which is generally designed as the tool of ignoring the present moment right now and looking for a better future, something else, something else, not the present.
something else, not the present. This is wrong. Well, it's not wrong right now, OK, but it was wrong for like 80% of the day yesterday. This is wrong. So I can reasonably assume it's going to be wrong again. Says who? If there is enough relaxed attention, that mind is still laser-focused. Let's say, like, you know, Bob, 50 years ago, he was working. He came back from India and he got straight to work on the war, then he got a health food store, and then he got to the... farm, there was a lot of work involved. He needed attention, absolutely required for survival. But there was no idea that, oh, shit, you know, I didn't have one non-dual thought.
I was completely on the go, flowing with whatever required attention. And shit, this is wrong. I should be sitting and basking in the nothingness. Such thought didn't show up, and if it did, it wouldn't be entertained. It would be noticed. And, oh, bye. Laughed at. The idea that anything could be or should be any different than it is, is madness because it's too late. That's how it is. If the mind keeps engaging, like you should see Dean going completely viral about the project he's working on, five, six, ten hours a day, completely consumed. What's wrong with that? That's where the attention is required. It's actually...
If you look at... The inventors, artists or people who are living the happiest sort of a life, they're in the flow with whatever attention is required to the point that there is no self objecting to any of it. But I guess it's not being in that flow. So it's like doing the activities and then feeling that it should be different, feeling that it should be in the flow. And again, that's like... That's it. And then how much of that can create your own suffering? Because... I feel like you have to do this. So... Yeah. And it's a pattern that you can see over many years as well, where you're forcing yourself, like you're creating the situation for yourself based on fear.
You're projecting out into the future saying this has to happen. And so then you're creating that whole cage for yourself to suffer in. And the habit, the lifelong habit of constant self judgment. I got to do better than that. I got to look better. I got to achieve better. I got to... Everything is wrong. It's not like this. I don't want it to be like this. It's not good. You can see the conditioning from childhood as well, like where it started. Yes. And how a lack has come from lack and fear. Yeah. And now if that narrative, if that voice is believed, welcome to hell.
Yeah. If that voice is believed, welcome to hell. Yeah. If that voice is recognized as completely mechanical activity that this particular so-called organ is exhibiting, just like completely mechanical activity of shivering when it's cold or sweating when it's hot or digesting. Yeah. You can see the judgment coming up. You can see the narrative complaining. You can see the mind doing its thing. But you are that relaxed space, like awareness, noticing, registering that habit, that habitual narrative, showing up like a broken record and the belief, the available attention isn't going there fully. It may still be audible. It may still ring in the back of the mind, but it isn't the truth anymore.
See what makes any mental image a reality or the truth. It's the belief. If you don't believe it, let's say you have a particularly weird conspiracy theorist in front of you talking about the reptiles turning into whatever butterflies and going to your bloodstream and all that. And you listen, you're interested, you maybe even mildly amused. There is no way anything in your conditioning could actually be true. Actually, allow it to be true. But subscribe to it. Like watching a cartoon, science fiction cartoon. Is it going to cause anxiety? No. So now the same thing, but somehow on the frequency of your conditioning, very convincing. Look, the world is going bananas.
This is going to happen. This is going to happen. And then it rings true. It feels right. And the anxiety springs out. The difference is the belief. And the belief is. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I don't get the you create. I don't get the create side of it at all. That never comes up. So there's no belief like that coming up. But I get a package. It's like a package is there that hasn't disappeared out of the system yet. So the package will be the checklist. You have to get the wardrobe together. That hasn't been done in ten years. Have to get stop flattening at the age of 50.
That sort of thing. This is a long checklist. It's behind miles behind everybody else's checklist. And so there's no belief. And I thought that I've created that. It's just like clearly in the system. And there will be the whole package of angst around. And it might be constant. Certainly there. I call it in the bubble. So it might be in that bubble of just all the focuses on getting that checklist off or remembering the checklist, the memories and angst in the body come up about the checklist and maybe constant comes up. But no thoughts that I created any of it and no thoughts that it should be any belief in any belief that it's other than a non dual kind of systems.
But still, the package. So no, you can see things popping up. Yeah. And then after a while, more recently. So then that package isn't coming up the same way. So it's like, okay, a day was just sat in front of a Chinese drama on the TV. About 20 gigabytes got used because there hasn't been a move to try and streamline the fire wires, fire stick, whatever. But the other package of. Yeah. Angst. And I'll know then this next practical thing has to happen or even just the smaller, the primary thing of something has to be let go before things improve. Even that one might not show.
It might just be, oh, yeah. Okay. That's what's happening now. And oh, that's nice. That whole package of angst around the checklist didn't move. It hasn't been showing up lately. But then time will. Then bubble will go back into to work on the checklist. That behavior will happen. Salad bowls will get Googled for a day. Things like that. But a little bit of angst might pop in and they might back off quicker. Oh, okay. That was interesting. Where did that come in? It's been less of that lately. Yeah. So it's kind of halfway between what people say about being believed in and about being not having a no thought.
Yeah. So I think that's the main thing. And the main thing is to just see the mind unfolding, see what arises in around and also what arises in the mind and leaving it unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected, just whatever arises. And then being no thing, being the space, like being the cognizing, witnessing presence. Like I had an example. Was it, I think, a week ago or something. Julia was going. Somewhere and then gave us a ride. She needed to buy some stuff. And there was a Chinese woman with very expensive Porsche car. And she basically our car was parked. Dean's car was parked and she reversed back into it.
But because her car is very expensive, straight away she started making picture. Oh, no, no, no, no. I'll make it up that he did that. So his insurance will pay for it. Well, opportunist. And who knows? She might even believe. Lawyer. Well, she might even believe. Who knows? In a moment of stress, the mind can throw out fake memories. Who knows? I mean, there's nothing to incriminate mind. It's very mechanical. It is mechanical. So if in her conditioning, the instinctive lying to protect is being habituated, then again, there is no one there who had any choice to do anything else. She's as innocent machine doing its own conditioning.
Like us, everyone else. But now we're getting back home. Julia is packing the suitcase. She's going to America next day. And we were supposed to have a little bit of a catch up. And the thing comes up. We'll have to file the claim, put the insurance because she's already police didn't want to talk to her because there's nothing like this car wasn't even touched. She had a Porsche, so she will have a little scratch. But it wasn't really any of our business what was happening. But still, there was conditioning to do the needful before you relax. And then one mind will behave in this way.
Like you might be very responsible, Michael. And then if the mind is coming up, this is serious. This has to be attended. Or Tony with checklist. This has to be attended. It is already preconditioned. That's how the mind was wired. Another person would say, nah, let's get drunk and let's go and lie around and put the TV on. Who cares? It will work. And we see people like that living under the bridges or getting. And who says that this conditioning is better than that conditioning? There is stress induced in the system because the dream requires attending. So you are equally registering presence for the stress and attending for the judge.
How much yapping for the checklist arising? You are still the presence. The no thing aware of whatever is arising, seriousness arising. Oh, shit. You know, like broken quickly put the Band-Aid or any other urgent situation. Speeding fine. Police doesn't matter what is arising. There is always that relaxed presence registering the arising. and now learning about your machine learning about your mind how much narrative it is going to roll how long it is going to chew over that event wow what a fascinating adventure of learning the idea no it shouldn't be this way i prefer it the other way well include that in watching what is that eye who wants something else what is that eye that is objecting to the way the machine is conditioned because that is a part especially the hallucination of the separate self having a say and imagining being a doer and and having an impact on how the situation will resolve how i will grow and progress on the path or how i will get more and more clear all those narratives are just as mechanical as burping and fire i think and also to bring that um the the the leaving unaltered basically thing to that's also wrecks a bit of agency with leaving you know so um to bring it back to mechanical neutrality um yeah i would say the experience is more that like um those things sudden don't happen so at some point you know at points those things don't happen so um so it's not really a leaving process it's just they just don't happen there's no one to leave it alone yeah and and the experience is that you know just you just see that they're not happening when they were and um and also thoughts that they can be left might stop showing up as well you know so that the notions that someone can do it will also stop happening too so absolutely that's really what's going on yeah yeah absolutely yeah there's no one to leave it alone there is no one to not engage with anything those pointers are just to remind they're just reminders that look space doesn't object to what arises even if what arises is the commentary over commentary and rejection of a judgment of a judgment that's what arises if the little bit of attention can just return to space to that registering presence it doesn't matter how many layers of narrative arises how much seriousness and importance and even the idea of separate self if that is showing up on the screen in the awareness and is kind of amazing and that space isn't bothered if you can actually realize that no matter how violent storm there is that layer of or not even a layer, there is a presence registering storm that is not objecting, that is not bothered, always.
Even if you bring like the memories of the situations, traumatic situations or questionable situations, they were all registered. And the registering of a situation wasn't shaken. There's always that unshakable stillness underneath all that is happening. Even if the happening feels like 100% of attention is completely taken. Let's say I'm avoiding the accident on the road. There is no witness watching. No, attention is completely, completely engaged. And that completely engaged attention is still registered. So there is no witness watching. So that I can say the attention was completely engaged. So this is where it gets complicated with the pointing and with the language. So which of it is me?
Am I this space or am I this attention? It feels like I am the one attending. It feels like I am the one looking. I am the one imagining. I am the one who's anxious. So which one is I? And this is where the pointer of no separation. . There is no separation. Can you separate the one who is aware of the field of awareness? Can you separate the anxiety from the awareness of the anxiety? In the language we say anxiety has been registered. But can you actually divide it and separate? Like can you separate the objects in the room from the capacity of seeing?
The capacity of seeing is singular. Everything that arises in it, including the eyes that are part of the whole field of seeing, inseparable one. So now the registering capacity, the cognising capacity, the cognising emptiness and everything that arises are completely one, inseparable. No, no, no. So it really is the idea that OK, I am. There is a dream arising in me. Oh, my God. in the space when there is no dream it's a faulty idea it is only used for the sake of pointer but there isn't too there is no empty space in the content there is just emptiness forming emptiness vibrating into forms if there was no content there was no there is no space if there is no dreaming there is nothing at all there is no waking there's no such thing as non-dream or absence of a dream even absence of a content in the dream is just how the dream arises the existence and they say okay but there is some of them some of the speakers or books or say that there is prior to i am of course i am only comes when you learn words and when the attention is directed at itself when there is no directing of attention well still sub chitananda again prior to the labels that were put on the uh on the fact it's just so it's just so ridiculously simple that speaking about it complicates it but by putting it in words yes and yet there is no choice in speaking or not speaking if speaking is happening that's what's happening and then trying to articulate that which is so intuitive and so obvious and so undeniable and trying to present it in a way using dualistic language even though it just completely divides any description is completely ineffable and beyond language wow and still happening what a joke tony yeah there's been a movement here just to ditch the notion of attention and just go with showing up from now on so let's yeah see how it goes yeah it's going to be interesting um yeah we'll see how this is going.
that unpacked yeah tony brought us a beautiful new zealand chocolate and it's nice oh it's funny okay silly yummy people say something we haven't heard your name so i'm on myself how are you going um i'm going one day at a time chocolate today it's good um i had something earlier but that's gone but um if it comes back i'll mention it um maybe the association with the mechanical mind and uh and that which always is and i think the the dilemma that michael was mentioning earlier was that there's no association with one's essential nature so the mind just goes through this like a concrete mixture going around and around but the thing is it's a good thing because that's a learning within itself you'll eventually get some sort of understanding and so when the mind is associated with its essential nature then i think that's when all that sort of stuff stops you don't get into these mental チャцаux masturbation or whatever you've already come i don't know that's that's what i was thinking when this discussion was going on you know i haven't been thinking much of it that's a good thing uh just uh just listening and or listening happening and um it's just watching what pops up from time to time and you know 99.999 is completely irrelevant um but you know i've just gone through a pretty i'm still working very hard at the moment and doing very long hours so when i'm not working i just uh just feel like exhaustion coming over and just let that happen and yeah i guess that's helping not think too much as well but um nothing much else to add at the moment it's nice to be here yeah good to have you here and yeah well they are patches in life like like bob was saying you know like a river moving through very fast through this rough patches and waterfalls and whittles and things and again the self-regulating nature and even the brilliance of the mind complaining about it even the complaint even having too much i can't go on like this i'm gonna break or i'm gonna cortisone level or whatever even that has its place it is a self-organizing universe everything here it was the scene from that neutral um neutral sort of cognizing emptiness perspective it has its place and it's an expression of the same love of being not wanting to overwork yourself and not have time to breathe and to just enjoy the nature even that hatred for the overwork is a love of being is that behind it is just oh i care for myself more i wish i had more of it you know like yeah it just doesn't life doesn't always work out in ways that make the body feel comfortable you know like i i hear you and you can say well what's wrong right now if you don't think about it but the reality is that there are times that are really difficult for the body whether you think about it or not it's a fact it's not oh yeah you know so it's much more experience too did you experience more aging or uh or when you were young oh similar experience generally i'm speaking very broadly yeah um i guess generally i'm finding things much harder now than they were i thought life was going to get easier but it hasn't and not just in the physical aging side of it just um um i mean i know you can think about like you projected a certain something for your future whatever that meant at the time um and it's it is still hard to you know know about like am i imagining a better past or a better future which doesn't exist as well although um when i think about it and in my memory it seems that i had an easier time even though i went through difficult times it didn't seem like it was as exhausting and as challenging as it is now now whether that's i can't say that's real anymore because it's in the past or in my mind or in my imagination um however my my i don't know the perception is that now is difficult that is it yeah now now i'm sitting here i get that but it's it's hard to reconcile with the fact or the seeming fact whatever how do you put this into words you know like there are times when it just seems like very difficult and it happens to lots of people you know yes you know it's not it feels very personal but but i also understand that it's you know on another level that is just happening and different things happen to different people at different times and it's just life yeah if you keep if you keep going along these these lines like okay yeah actually it is how is that even happening like yeah if you're in a if you're in a in a place like now even saying that in a place like now if now is okay um how we're really good news yeah it's always now yeah well yeah i mean now i get that yes yes however how okay well how does that being in your body get through difficult situations in the same way as how does my whatever this is here get through difficult situations and i don't always have well i don't have the answer because um it just seems that something else happens something else happens and probably the same something else that's digesting the food and beating heart and sometimes it doesn't see i you know like bob was he had cancer for two years before he died and then he died sometimes it doesn't get better sometimes it gets worse and worse and worse and then that and then the dream ends so to actually say and of course you course, you know, really, really sorry to hear that you're going through the rough patch, because I don't wish it to anybody, especially anyone.
So it is sometimes that, you know, the river of life does take you to really, really heavy contracted, like screaming, like think of people really having debilitating physical condition, chronic pains, people being in jail, people being in the families that are being abused physically or emotionally, yes, there is a lot of suffering in that circumstantial sort of a dream when you think of, and when you project or imagine time other than now situation other than now, which includes comparing, you know, like comparing to the way my body was 20 years ago, and I could go to the mountains and walk for 16 hours and just not even get puffed up.
Right now, this is not happening. So I could just really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really make myself miserable with the fact of aging. But if I don't compare, but just find myself witnessing the present difficulty, like, you know, like when Bob was lying on his bed, bed, and there was a pain, and being completely present to taking another piece of opioid, opening the medication, give it to him, giving him water, asking the pain, opening the stomach bag and think that, who, whatever, being present to what's happening, without the idea that shit, you know, three years ago, there was no cancer, we could go for long walks, we didn't have to have the stomach bug, we didn't have to have opioids.
This is shit. But without that comparison, situation was so much worse than it could have ever been like, you know, if we keep comparing, but without that comparison, is a lot of people who are still living in a state of appreciation for still being here present to the dream. Even in the moments where pain was surfacing, of course, pain was the call for attention. And then the pain was attended to. Sometimes there are situations when pain cannot be attended to. And then the call may be to end the dream. And I had a couple of people in my life who did actually found that call in their system and the dream ended.
And there is nothing wrong with that either. It's the social stigma associated with that. I hope this is never going to happen to you. I hope it's never going to happen to any of you or anyone that you that you care for. But technically, in this self organizing universe without any little person in there, we have a lot of people that are just living in the same state of mind, with just the habit of the mind constantly complaining that things are not to the speed that you know, though I have both eyes and both legs and both arms and roof over the head and I don't live under the bridge and I'm not in poverty.
And my family is still alive. And, and all those things are happening. Now life's not worth leaving, because the narrative says so. And my experience is that life is not what not worth leaving. things are completely overlooked and this is believed into experience. Therefore, some big handful of medications or jumping off the building happens. So in 100 years, none of us is going to be there anyway. So right now, this privilege of staying present to the unfolding, whether the unfolding is a dark night or is a bright day, or whether it's a cold winter or is a hot summer. The truth is, it's just now and that now is the eternity.
But the content is changing. No matter how dark the night is, it's not going to last. It's not going to be there forever. Yes, but has been long enough. For the last ten years, my body is going down and it's getting worse. Yes. And it may keep going worse. It may even get like if you get to your 90s, it may even get cancerous. And I've been working with many people in their 90s. They were dying of loneliness apart from being cancerous. And they were looking forward to falling asleep and never waking up. And that part of the dream is still temporary. And it is the only way that life essence can actually glimpse its own existence.
And then and Jotty also says, like, on the same topic, without the comparison or overthinking, it can just be about what's the next step in this moment. Yeah. What's around the corner? What used to say all the time? That's it. Anticipation. No, it's curiosity. You're talking about something else. I quoted Bob. So this is not the same thing. Anticipation is something that takes the mind away from the now. That's. What I was. That's the. What you said, Cat, about the appreciation. I'm looking at the comfort. You've got the house, you've got a warm bed, you've got people who love you, you've got food. You've got.
So it's about that attention as well, isn't it? And what we put the focus on. And then Sandra, I told a beautiful story about how she looks at photos of herself from four or five years old. Four or five years ago. And then she'll look at the photo and she goes, you know what, I actually look quite good then. Yeah. But at the time she's looking in the mirror, she's looking in the mirror going, oh, I've got these wrinkles around my eyes. Oh, I'm getting old. And she's done that. And she's been doing that ever since she was in her 20s. She'd be looking at her something.
My thighs are too big. My bum's too big. All this sort of stuff. And then in ten years time, she looks. Back and she goes, oh, they're good. And that's what we're constantly doing. I appreciate it. I love the attention. We can turn the mind around and do the attention on what you do have and what is good, then there's so much more. But even that is a conditioned. You know, like if you don't, if that is not conditioned, there's sort of a positive thinking. If the thought of looking at the whole picture doesn't arise, you can't, you just keep complaining. You just stay in the darkness.
I find that the movements here that lead towards more lightness, release or relaxness, relaxiness. It's just generally quite often a thought that comes up and a get rid of inner turmoil. And then the other stuff does really as much as a package follow. You know, fortunately and over time. But yeah, I mean, like, I've just noticed things like the angst will disappear when the comparisons and the judgments and that aren't showing up anymore because of the non duality stuff we do, the emotional, but there's also the physical. And here there's just usually some kind of internal process of release going on. And it's incredibly visual because of the setup and it's just happening when it's happening.
But then. And then sometimes there'll be a direct physical random thing. Like the other day there was like some release because here it's quite spatially. Like there'll be a release going on over here, out there, over here and back there or whatever. And there was a big one going over here. I forget what the theme was, what it was even related to. And probably some kind of financial being imposed upon financially or something. I don't know. Something release is going on. But it was just sort of happening in an area just around here. And then there was like feeling like. Some kind of then it just feels airy like air can blow through.
It was just quite released empty. And then suddenly my ears just like opened up like they've been blocked for months. And when I actually went to the air hospital, he was saying, like, I can't even get the wax that's stuck onto the air drum off because it'd be too excruciating. And they put some of that fizzy stuff down. But it didn't put. I should have gone back and got more. And yeah, I've been blocked for months and I just doing a release and immediately physically everything opens up. So I just find that generally there is a movement here to do that and prioritize that. And actually the notions come up that it's really good to have all this big issue and that big issue because it gives an opportunity for something else to be something, some fear gets sparked and that gets followed and some other notion, some area gets worked on or not even worked on, but just starts going through a process.
And then some physical things clear. And big areas of life suddenly become no package of stress involved. And de-stressing the body clearly is going to help physically. So an energetic kind of process does seem to just be the thing here. And it does seem to work in whatever ways. Obviously, if it's something huge, then that's not going to work as obviously. But that's beautiful. That's beautiful and inspiring. And this is really also part of this. This is gatherings that we remind each other that even when the mind comes up with a very strong complaint, something is wrong with the body. There is a pain or there is an exhaustion or there is the emotional turmoil, even voicing it and be able to just kind of remind each other to stay open.
If the problem has been voiced now, staying open and looking for the solution, like Tony was saying, relaxing the nervous system, finding the inspiration, suddenly something is hurt somewhere and it kind of brings the remedy to it. Just that trust in life and openness. And that even though it's the content of the dream, which is kind of a secondary, primarily we are actually looking into the nature of a dream and nature of a dreaming itself. That the content of the dream, whether it is pleasant or painful, is secondary. But with that attitude of openness, the secondary content of the dream is completely included. That's why it is commonly reported that psychological suffering does not have to be present and it may not go in one big blast.
The habit of the mind complaining, always looking what is not, always wanting what is not, may persist. But if that habit is seen, as just part of the landscape, it doesn't have to cause much pain. And yet resolution, staying completely open and finding a resolution, like the resolution of the accident thing, it needed attending. It wasn't pleasant. It was too ridiculous. It was like, come on, try to even not get dysregulated. We laughed about it. But ten years ago, I would just fume with fury. The ridiculousness of it. Too fearful to sit there and talk. Yeah. That has to be quick fix. Take the mic.
Give her a mic. Yes, back to the whole uncomfortable feelings thing. So the people who can only accept mainstream thought are afraid of anything, to be more open minded and just sitting there more open mindedly. Yeah. And want to be in a hurry. It's just. Get me the quick fix because it's too uncomfortable like this. And it's way too uncomfortable to dive in and see, sit with something more uncomfortable to actually unravel and let go of this whole thing. So, yeah, I guess it's that quick fix. Conservative. Yeah. And I wonder if anyone who is on Zoom with us would like to add something to the discussion.
Anyone would you like to unmute and throw a question or description or something? I wonder, Jane, would you like to actually, because we kind of addressed that idea of no self and yet presence being still here, always here. Can you hear me? Am I on mute? Yeah. I think it's been resolved. It was a good discussion, Kat. Thanks for that. I mean, just for the benefit of others. I was just, I guess one of the issues. About advaita is that you can talk at different levels. You can talk about the here and now you can talk about the mind body and then you can talk about the dream and then you can talk about as Dino sometimes talks about just it's all vibration and it's all a waste of time.
Anyway, let's go home and not talk about it. And I just, you know, it does my head in because I'm a fairly structured thinker. And so I say, let's just get these boundaries. And let's just footnote which level we're talking. So it's just my stuff. And that was a really good discussion. So I'm fine. Thanks. Thank you. That is a good point. You're totally right. There are different angles. There are many, many different lenses through which the point be used. You know, like music. I'm having now. Of using the. And. I mean, this is one form of emptiness. But very like centuries old pointer from Buddhism.
They all valid. But yes, not all at once. Exactly. For me. Yeah. Anyway, that was a great discussion. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone. Anyone else would you like? Anand or John? Or David? Or. Seem anyone would like add something. Ask something. It's just an invitation. And I think we have another comment on Facebook. No, we had without the comparison. Oh, no, we had that one. That one. Okay. So. Yes. Yeah. And also it must be a big release of you can let go of needing to live longer. Yes. That is a really great point. And the idea generally of being preoccupied with that which is not happening, which is a habit of the mind.
And it's a beautiful habit. It really comes from love of being. I want to be healthy. I want to be safe. I want to make sure that tomorrow is safe. I want to make sure that there is no war, that there's no shortage of food, that I'm not going to run out of money. Wow. Wow. What a beautiful statements of love of being. But taken seriously. What a nightmare. Because none of that can ever be guaranteed. So staying faithful to that which is happening right now, the current breath, the subtle joy of being alive rather than investing 100% of attention. I'm not saying that anyone has a choice in the matter.
Again, it is just cognizing, recognizing what is the current habit of the mind. If the current habit of the mind is preoccupation with, yes, but this is shit in comparison to the past and it's going to get worse. Recognize that habit. See it from that curious openness in which, aha, this is what it is doing. Clearly it is invested in the love of being. Clearly, if it didn't give a shit, it wouldn't even have that judgment statement. If there was no. Preference for love and safety and comfort, that complaint wouldn't take place. So this is what can be recognized even now, even if the mind is really preoccupied with comparison and fear of things getting worse or bursting or not making it.
Even now, this can be recognized as the expression of the loving care, love of being preference for safety and comfort and being. Again, open to it and curious about it and seeing it as the appearance in space. Here I am because I am because I am conscious because I am present. There is the mind looking at the whole landscape of a dream, wanting it to be better, wanting it to be different. That's what's happening. Lovely. And now what's happening now? The breath is happening. The seeing is happening. Oh, another complaint is happening. Wow. In that openness, in that curious, spacious awareness, because there is an existence without it, like Bob's metaphor of the computer, you pull the plug or you disconnect the battery.
There's no dream. There's no movie. There is not even a bad movie without the power. So even if the dream is uncomfortable, it is only here because I am. I am. There is an existence. There is consciousness. There is a love of being. That's why the mind is complaining. This is not up to my standards. You deserve better than that. Okay. Thank you very much. Again. Look again. Current breath, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, complaining, imagining, imagining, past, imagining future. The more relaxed attention, the more curiosity, the more subtle appreciation for being alive, and the less attention involved in the content, in what is happening on the screen, what is happening in the dream, and in the subtle appreciation for aliveness, which is not for granted anymore, is appreciated in the moment.
That appreciation becomes a new setting. Suddenly, even the mind complaining is wow, that's appreciated. We used to have a really, really good laugh with Bob because the mind does its job. It still does whatever it is designed to do. Oh, it's raining again. We're not going to go out for lunch. Oh, gosh. Bob has three individual calls today. I don't feel like it. And who cares? And we both. We both laugh. Anything the mind comes up with. Yeah, there is no one to care. What a reason to celebrate. The mind can do whatever it does, and no one takes it on board. Wow. And the possibility of recognizing the mind as just another phenomena arising rather than I, the identity, assuming to be my narrative, assuming to be that commentary.
I am the one hearing it rather than one speaking it. I hear the mind yapping. So I am the space, the presence, the cognizing emptiness, cognizing through seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. Well, imagining also, but that imagining goes primarily seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, because that's related to now. Imagining is not related to now. It's past, future, what's not happening, what's not here, what's not now. So you are more of a hearing of the complaining mind, then the mind talking about past and future, because hearing is more immediate than it is right now. And you don't know what it is going to say next. In the hearing, you will discover.
Discovering that that's the end. You want to add to that. To me, like five senses is very fuzzy. There's so much more. But anyway, it's very confusing. Pro preceptor kinesthetic, all sorts. Yeah. For me, the five senses, especially with your Vanuatu chocolate, were all included. The chocolate smelled absolutely fantastic. Didn't have to be kinesthetic or visual, and it smelled and it tasted. And thank you for that. Oh, yeah. There is. Okay. Thank you, everyone. Yeah. Thank you, everyone. You want to.