This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
And also reminding that there is no teaching. There is no teaching here. Non-duality is not a teaching. The idea that there is something to learn, that there is something to understand or something to get is frankly misguided because everything that you can get or understand or learn is just a recording in the mind. And as Bob was hammering down, I think we have Bob's picture here behind us also, what Bob was hammering down, the answer is not in the mind. The mind can't get it. So whatever is being explained, whatever is being understood, whatever is being grasped, it's not it. It's not worthy of pursuing.
It's not the non-duality. And non-duality is just a word. There is no thing called non-duality. Non-duality is a word that is pointing to... That which is beyond words and beyond objects, beyond experiences, beyond any expressions. It is that one could say basic space of phenomena or unified field of all possibilities or cognizing emptiness. Or space-like, sky-like awareness, or just ordinary,sense of presence ordinary awareness of existence sometimes they call it sat cheat ananda which is just a description again but this is a description that is bringing back the reminder that sat is consciousness and there is no one unconscious right now and people may say yes but i was unconscious a couple of weeks ago i had a surgery not now Not now.
Right now, when you look, when you investigate, and then you will notice that it's always now. Two weeks ago is just a thought. It's just a mental image. It's a projection. One could call it a memory, but where is it? Where does it have any location or existence? So the consciousness is always present whenever you look. You can assume or imagine absence of consciousness, but that assumption or imagination is just a thought in that conscious awareness right now. So sat, cheat, sat, cheat, ananda, being consciousness, please. So being is sat, cheat is consciousness. Being is obvious. We can't even really grasp it, but we can't deny it.
To actually be conscious, you have to exist. And you can't separate being conscious from existence. Again, one could say, yes, but I am existing in the sleep at night, but I'm not conscious of being asleep and I have no memories of that. Not now. And welcome.We have Anand joining us on Zoom. And welcome to those who are on Facebook Live with us. So Sat Chit Ananda back again. Being, presence, existence. That is clear and obvious for everyone. There is no one who is doubting their own existence. There is no one who says, I believe I exist. Oh, I'm not sure, but I kind of, yes, I kind of agree with that.
No, to even believe or to agree or to disagree. That the presence or the existence is already there and that existence is already conscious so again those are words you could say there is no being but you have to be there to say it you can say there is no consciousness again you have to be conscious of that to say it and That really doesn't mean, it doesn't mean that there is a you who is present or you who is conscious or you who has preference for existence. That only comes when we assume, when we use the dualistic language. So I am versus I am not, or I am conscious versus I am unconscious.
It always refers to some alleged I. And that I only exists in the language. If you look at the birds or insects or reptiles, they don't say I. They are one with existence. They are just life moving, moving through the body.the body moving as breath moving as blood flow it's just life there is no idea that this is me versus something else not being me so in language necessarily because this is a symbolic language duality seeps in So when we say, I exist, I am conscious, and I prefer to be happy and alive, that assumes that there is an I to which all those aspects relate.
And the hard question, is there an I? And we can look at it and see that, yes, obviously, everyone says I. They are bodies. There are spaces between the bodies. There is a seeming separation, just like there are cars on the road. There is a car and no car. There is a body and no body. There is a thought and no thought. So it does appear separately. Every thought appears separate. Every feeling appears separate. When I feel sad, I don't feel joy. When I feel hatred, I don't feel love or whatever. They kind of come and go like winter, summer, like day, night, like up and down.
Everything seems to appear interchangeably as if they had separate existence. But that's just the appearance. That appears.is here because I am. If I wasn't here, none of that could appear because I am conscious. So all the appearance of duality, even the appearance or the assumption or a belief of having someone inside this body, some little dwarf, some little tiny fairy, that is believing to be in charge, to have free will, to have control. Even that is an appearance because I'm here, because I'm conscious. If I wasn't here and I wasn't conscious, that appearance, that idea of having some little agency inside couldn't even be possible.
So now the idea of agency, how this came about. It came about again through the language, which is a wonderful evolutionary advantage of this particular species. I mean, other species use language also. Birds use signals and practically all species, including even fungi and mushrooms and myceliums, they communicate in some way or another. But they predominantly communicate about current present conditions they as far as we can tell don't imagine timeline in which they existed before birth or they had childhoods or they will exist after they die that that capacityThat incredible capacity to imagine the timeline in the present moment and believe it real seems to be only a product of symbolic language.
Because I can conceive of yesterday. I can conceive of tomorrow. And I have symbols, those words. Are symbols that represent time other than now and a place other than here. So because of the conceptual language and because of the navigational purposes, if there is time other than now and place other than here, and this particular body-mind moves through that time and space, then for a convenience, we gave it a label. We called it Katarina, we called it a woman or man or little boy or good girl or whatever we call it. And because that label doesn't really come near to the mystery of aliveness and the consciousness, We, again, this is an autopilot function.
The mind builds up and adds to that conceptual image, adds memories, adds traumas, adds little stories, adds preferences, tastes, and it creates the compelling personality with rich life, like a hero journey. And it's beautiful.Though, am I this? Or am I the consciousness in which this shows up? That's the question. Someone's joining us. Hi, Charlie. So, and this is where non-duality goes. So we got Charlie joining us. You can say hi to Zoomers and Facebookers.Yeah. Okay. So that's that. This is where non-duality divorce most of other philosophies and cults and sects and religions. We do not go with preconceived notions. We do not agree upon terms.
We look into direct experience. We use language. We use pointers. We may, within the small group that we are sharing the message, we may agree that a particular way of describing is resonating better and we're using Bob's language because somehow it proved helpful and it resonated. doesn't mean other ways of presenting it will not be equally or more helpful for people with other sort of a tuning of frequency. But what is the main predicament of the non-duality is to verify your own direct experience, is to look for yourself. Just see where the pointer is pointing. Don't worry about the wording. And look for yourself. And what are you looking?
First of all, are you here? Are you here? Are you present? Are you alive? Are you conscious?Are you aware? Or are you perhaps, like Bob would say, are you unaware? Are you unconscious? No, you can't say that. So now the idea even of forming a question, are you? Aware or conscious is already kind of suggesting the line of investigation pointing out that there is a you but now we know there is a presence of consciousness there is a presence of awareness there is a presence of aliveness and language points out that this presence is experienced here in this body mind and this body mind has been given a label and apart from the label it has also coiled a conceptual image of what it is so everyone has a concept about themselves what they are i'm a woman i'm australian or i'm polish or i'm tall or i'm short or i am kind or i am whatever scorpio or something else and my personality is E-I-N-F-G or whatever, or my Enneagram type is this and that.
So those ideas consist or build up to a conceptual image, which is again used for navigational purposes. And if we look at the cultural conditioning, those conceptual images, I think we were discussing that yesterday, people who actually join the groups andThey compare what they like, which conspiracy theory, which religion, what type of vacation, what type of lifestyle. And based on those similar likes and dislikes, they create communities. And communities and tribes bring up joy and safety and increase the chances for survival. So this storytelling capacity for humans is a beautiful capacity. And David is joining us on Zoom.So welcome, David. And it's a beautiful capacity, but it is also confusing because in using the idea of conceptual image in reference to myself for day in and day out, all lifelong, every day of week and every day of a year, somewhat the belief the energy solidifies and it feels us if there was the conceptual image is what or who I am I am the conceptual image I like this ice cream or I get anxious in this situations or I prefer this type of music this is who I am this is me this is just me So as helpful as it is, the question of the preferences or the question of the capacities of your vehicle of expression is more or less like you were describing your costume or like you were describing your car.
Or you were describing your dwelling place. Perhaps, only perhaps, this conceptual image is another appearance arising in awareness, and you are not this image, you are not the description. You are witnessing the description. You are registering.string the description you are aware of that description and you are prior to it so this is where where the serious investigation starts if i for a moment push that conceptual image and concept of what i am or who i am aside Do I disappear? Without the idea that I'm a person, I'm a woman, I'm the body. Is the presence gone? Is that presence depending on the description of what I am or who I am?
And without that description, how is that being going? Bob would put it out in a beautiful one-liner. What's wrong with right now if I don't think about it? And that is in relation to dramas and stories that this individual takes as mine. I don't have enough money. My body is aging. I am unhealthy. My partner doesn't love me. Or I had trauma. I've been abused. So those are problems and all of them you'll soon see, or perhaps you know already, exist only when you think about them. When there is no thought, there is no problem. Even if the body is uncomfortable. If there is no thought that the body shouldn't be uncomfortable, well, there is no problem.It's just uncomfortability.
One could say it's just what is. So one step further, which Bob would usually take that line of investigation, what's wrong with right now if I don't think about it? Nothing, no problem. Well, but you still don't have money, right? Well, no, when I don't think about it, I can't say it. And cancer, if I don't think about it, no, can't conceive of it. So there's nothing wrong. And have you stopped being? Have you stopped seeing? Have you stopped breathing? Existence, did it go anywhere? Consciousness, is it absent? So in this moment you realize that without the story of you, without the problems associated with the drama of you, existence is still shining of its own.
Consciousness registering, witnessing is still present. Seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling is happening. But there is no costume, there is no concept. You want to jump in? No. No? Just listening. Okay. I wish you did. And anyone in that manner, you know, it's like I forget to tell it in the beginning. I love being interrupted. I love the investigation line to being taken anyway, just for that to be wild and spontaneous. And so.So anyway, without the thought, without the conceptual image, without the idea of who I am, I still am. I don't know who I am. If I don't visualize the size of my body, if I don't memorize and bring up the picture of my face, I have no body, I have no face.
Yeah, yeah, but my butt is hurting. No, there is no butt hurting. That was a joke. That was a metaphor. I don't want you to think about it. Oops, getting worse. Okay, okay. If there is any pain. Okay, back off of soft pressure? Yeah. Thank you. It's not located necessarily on the surface of my farm, but it's just the surface. That's it. Brilliant. Thank you. So if there is a pressure present in any point that one could, or mind could visualize as the location, mind could localize as the place where the body touches the heart surface or something like that. Without that mental projection or mental image, you can't even call it pain or pressure.
There's a sensation present. And that sensation, mind straight away comes in and interprets. The sensation is in this distance, in this size, in this location.But without that mental processing, again, there is the presence, there is an existence, and there is an appearance. And the appearance consists of visual field, of sensory field, of auditory field, of all sorts of different rainbow of expressions or experiences, including imagination. Everything that appears in that presence. It's just an appearance. It comes and goes. And you can see the appearance of me as a body when I hold the mental image. Today might be different than 15 years ago. The appearance of my face in the memory also might be different than when I was five years old.
Which one is right? Yeah, I've just said in the past that when I was heavily watching Korean dramas, then when I think of the face here, an image of a young Korean boy's face pops up. Wow. You ever know her, Tony? No, that's actually brilliant. I mean, you could pop in a face.Actors would probably know all about it, you know, putting different masks, putting different costumes. And there are people who are very, very proficient in role playing also. They will have a different facial expression and different tone of a voice being teachers at school and completely different ones speaking to their dominating bosses or parents.
They will be different towards the children. So many different eyes, different roles, different personas projected out into the world. How different is the behavior? Like if you even think of a conceptual image that other people might have of you, you know, the local policeman or the pharmacy guy or perhaps. A child from a neighborhood. So which concept is right? And if you think of the experience of you having, experience of yourself you're having when you sleep at night, it's yet different. Different costume, different mask, different concept, different idea. But what is the common denominator? What is there that never changes? Regardless of the idea, I'm good, I'm bad, I'm inferior, I'm superior, I'm happy, or I'm ugly, or I'm not good enough.
What's the common denominator? What is always there regardless of those appearances or those ideas?is the presence that you are always here to see it and svetlana says hi cat miss you darling oh great to hear from you sweetheart and missing you too and geoti says we are all accomplished accomplished methods actors Yeah, what a show, isn't it? What an incredible dream. So the common denominator in all those phenomenal world in amongst the arising of conceptual images, of visual fields, of sensations, imaginations, pasts and future is the presence, the witnessing. There is always that existence aware, that awareness is always there, aware of what is arising.
And the presumption, but that one is not constant if you look closely. The presumption that this is me, that little mini person watching it. This is not constant. It feels like, it might feel like it's been constant. You know, I'm 60 year old and it's been there since I was 10. Yes, but before it wasn't. You weren't born with that.So the idea that there is someone watching, that there is a person looking, comes from the language. If you see, and again, Bob has had this beautiful demonstration of how in direct experience, the seer, the person looking, cannot exist apart from the field of seeing. It is singular experience of seeing.
You are seeing, there is seeing happening. And in that seeing, the content of the seeing is arising simultaneously with the person looking. And if you look at your dream, when you're dreaming, the content of the dream is simultaneously arising with the viewpoint, a perception, a point in perception from which the looking happens. Can there be a seeing if there wasn't an assumed point of perception? Where would you be looking from? If you were looking from every possible direction, you would see nothing. Because the slides would just overlap and the light wouldn't go through. So the consciousness, the presence, experiencing and expressing itself as seeing, contains the seer and the seen.
If you remove the seer, there is no point of perception. So seeing is important.If there is no arising, if nothing arises, then obviously seeing doesn't make sense. So it is one singular process which has been split for the language because of the symbolic language, for the navigational purposes. I'm seeing from here. Michael or Tibor or Tony or Charlie, I think from there, everyone is looking at the same computer and different angles. One can see Dino's left profile. Another one can see the right profile. Those are point of perception. The consciousness is assuming different point of perceptions. And like Tony beautifully described, you know, it can assume a young 25-year-old Korean boy.
Like Nisargadatta had this beautiful, cute idea of relaxing the attention so completely to assume other points of perception. Dino is proficient in becoming a deer or magpie or kookaburra, even speaks the bird's language. But anyone who's got mirror neurons can experience a glimpse of other points of perception. Nisargadatta was explaining it through putting two fingers together. And he says, you know, if you relax the attention, you might just identify for the heck of it with this one. This is you. And this is the finger touching. And then, turn around. Yeah. In dancing. Then what? Barat and net jam. That's Indian dancing. There you go. Yeah, just one time I was like freezing at a train stop late at night and then, you know, and yeah, and it's just feeling cold.
It's like, oh, what's one way of not like feeling the annoyance of the cold? And then I just, you know, what is that cold? And then when you actually really sit with what the feeling was, it wasn't cold.sort of came down to like sort of lead like material. I got the, yeah, I got the feeling of like a lead like material. And I think maybe one other thing, but yeah, the cold definitely went away and the annoyance went away with that too. So it's just interesting. It didn't go further than that. Like it didn't just pep you. But yeah, there's all sorts of things. It just like sit with it, let go of a notion, like so the notion of cold went away.
I don't ever feel like I'm doing this stuff. It's just that the notion came to sit with that. It wasn't even to sit with that, but the notion popped up. What's there if there's no cold, if it's not cold? And then the notion of like heavy lead like something, sense, feeling of something heavy lead. I don't know, it was a notion, I guess. It came in, maybe a visual. There's a strong visual here, so a visual probably popped in a bit too. There might have been a second one, but it's years ago, so I can't remember. You know, the memory's not coming up of what was there beyond that lead-like sense.
But definitely the notion that this is cold and I don't like it had gone. Cold had gone. Yeah. That's as far as it went. Yeah. That night.Yeah, that's it. Take a nice bath. It might have been the night then when, actually, for the entire trip home, other thoughts didn't come in. Yeah, that might have been not many other thoughts really came in and no annoyances came back until I got home. Yeah, so it was about an hour's trip. I ask you because you can intentionally visualise things. You can visualise protection. Or whether it just happens spontaneously and because the mind's on a completely different track you don't feel the cold anymore yeah yeah and also like here there's more of a seems to be more of an interest to clearing out like what's there when that's not you know doing that kind of um negative detailing kind of thing but um Yeah, sometimes like a visualization pops in, you know, like, you know, daily is sort of there's usually some clearing process taking place.
And so like actually while I've been sitting here most of the time I've been doing it has been happening to but in this time it was like almost the clearing and the notion might pop up what's it about it might not and the notion was like, oh, it's this heavy mother. Mother net you know hive thing that's sort of had this heavy thing here but you know some note some visual might pop up like there's a bit of a oh let's stick it all in a bag and then you know purify it whatever but it's not a sense i'm doing any of that shit you know it's just these little processes of pop and pop and pop and pop and that's it's just life you know yeahYeah, just a reminder.
I like the way you kind of make it visual, popping, popping, popping. That's exactly because it's visual set up here. So maybe that comes out here. Sorry, in visual language. But it's just the notion that it shows up, you know, it shows up some one or another. And artists that are heavily into their art and scientists, you know, will say that, oh, it came from nowhere. I don't know where that came from. It was a surprise, you know, and they're being very connected to what's, Only there, you know. Yeah. Yeah, and that's not just visual. I think it is equally relatable for very kinesthetically oriented people.
Yeah, it's just things show up, things show up, but we would say show up. And for them, things are arising, being experienced. Yes, whether it is a perception or there is a sensation or there is a concept, whether it is a mental image or... Yeah, and still that's the experience. No one knows what's the next mental image or the next thought going to be. No one knows what's the next sensation or projection is going to be. So it is really just being present to whatever is arising. And this is the secret of a life without psychological suffering. Being present, whatever is arising. Now, the unpleasant or uncomfortable sensation, projection or memory,maybe anxious mental image comes up being present to that mental image with the attitude of discovery of curiosity rather than yes and i suppose if you're gonna like being present almost got a positive tone to it rather than a negative removal aspect to it so i guess if you shifted it to a removal aspect then um it'd be like you know just not being present to something else, I suppose.
I don't know. Very good point. Very good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's call the tension. Yes. Yeah. And everything that's been discussed, like, can't exist without the attention that's... And then in some ways attention can become like a positive thing. So without attention, it's really just...I don't know. See, right now there's very little there, but I guess when there's more, so-called more there, of course, because everything's just the same anyway, whether it's seemingly full or seemingly empty, it's still really, you can't say that that's different. I suppose when it's seemingly full, there is more there and more thoughts of it being something solid, I suppose.
When you start looking for it, Tony, that's when you lose the reverie. The reverie is just letting it fly. Start looking doesn't really happen, though. You see, either in that reverie, like you say, with very little. Or there's just like busy, more solid and more angst.Yeah, yeah. There's a line there, but I won't say it. Oh, Mike, yeah. Mike to Mike. Mike to Mike. It's lovely to say all of that, even if you know all the answers. I know every answer you're going to give me. I know everything you're going to say because I can say it myself. And I even can see it and experience it and feel it myself.
But sometimes you just get completely lost in it. And it's like your mind is like this box that you're stuck in. It doesn't matter how hard you try to say, oh, be aware of that. It's like you're trapped in it. It's like a whole energy that goes down that path. Now that you've said that, Mike, I will say it. Mental masturbation. Not that anybody does it. It's not that you don't get it. It's not that you don't get it either, though, because it's not like you haven't experienced it. You don't know the truth of it. You've got all of that, right? But it's not like, oh, I'm speaking on duality.
And therefore, you know, speaking it doesn't mean anything. Like it's the experience of it. It's the experience of that, whatever it is that never changes. But despite all of that, sometimes it's just you're there. Like a... It's a solid conceptual cage. Cage, like a cage, like a prison of thought. And then you're responding to that. And then you're creating all this stuff around you.And as I see, I even know the answer. As a rule, a man's a fool. Because the bars are created of mist, of clouds. But it doesn't feel like that. And even when you say it, you know that it's just what it is.
You know it's going to pass. You know there's something aware of it, but it doesn't make it easier. Yes, so the question is, Who cares? And I don't want to be rude, but you see the subtle expectation from like there is a subtle idea that things should get easier in the future, that I'm not doing everything right. Because if I did, the, you know, the focused mode wouldn't be happening anymore. It's like if you look at the animals, the way they live, like kookaburras in a forest, there is a time when they just sit and bask in the sun. And there is a time when they run for their life or they go nesting or they're absolutely completely focused on diving for that little bug underground or competing or fighting the war, which family is going to own the territory.
The time for basking and the time for laser focused attention is self-regulated. The idea that it should always be one way and not the other.is to be questioned because that idea is also what is arising and that idea is so charged and is so loaded because it comes from the loving to be filtered by the mind which is generally designed as the tool of ignoring the present moment right now and looking for better future something else not this this is wrong well it's not wrong right now okay but it was wrong like 80 of the day yesterday this is wrong so i can reasonably assume it's going to be wrong again says whoIf there is enough relaxed attention, that mind is still laser focused.
Let's say, like, you know, Bob, 50 years ago, he was working. He came back from India and he got straight to work on the ward. Then he got health food store and then he got to the farm. There was a lot of work involved. He needed his attention was absolutely required for survival. But there was no idea that, oh shit, you know, I didn't have one non-dual thought. I was completely on the go, flowing with whatever required attention. And shit, this is wrong. I should be sitting and basking in the nothingness. Such thought didn't show up and if it did it wouldn't be entertained it would be noticed and bye laughed at the idea that anything could be or should be any different than it is is madness because it's too late that's how it is if the mind keeps engaging like you should see dean going completely viral about the project he's working on five six ten hours a day completely consumed What's wrong with that?
That's where the attention is required. It's actually, if you look at inventors, artists, or people who are living the happiest sort of a life, they're in the flow with whatever attention is required to theThe point that there is no self objecting to any of it. But I guess it's not being in that flow. So it's like doing the activities and then having feeling that it should be different, feeling that it should be in the flow. And again, that's it. And then how much of that you create your own suffering because. I feel like you have to do this. So, yeah. And it's a pattern that you can see over many years as well, where you're forcing yourself, like you're creating the situation for yourself based on fear.
You're projecting out into the future saying this has to happen. And so then you're creating that whole cage for yourself. To suffer in. And the habit, the lifelong habit of constant self-judgment. I got to do better than that. I got to look better. I got to achieve better. I got to, everything is wrong. It's not like this. I don't want it to be like this. This is not good. And you can see the conditioning from childhood as well, like where it started. Yes. And how a lack, it comes from lack and fear. Yeah. And now if that narrative, if that voice is believed, welcome to hell.
Yeah. If that voice is recognized as completely mechanical activity, that this particular so-called organ is exhibitingJust like completely mechanical activity of shivering when it's cold or sweating when it's hot or digesting. Yeah, you can see the judgment coming up. You can see the narrative complaining. You can see the mind doing its thing. But you are that relaxed space like awareness, noticing, registering that habit, that habitual narrative. Showing up like a broken record and the belief the available attention isn't going there fully it may still be audible it may still ring in the back of the mind but it isn't the truth anymore see what makes any mental image a reality or the truth is the belief if you don't believe it you know let's say you have a particularly weird conspiracy theorist in front of you talking about the reptiles turning into whatever butterflies and and going to your bloodstream and all that and you listen you're interested you maybe even mildly amused There is no way anything in your conditioning could actually allow it to be true, could subscribe to it.Like watching a cartoon, science fiction cartoon.
Is it going to cause anxiety? No. So now the same thing, but somehow on the frequency of your conditioning, very convincing. Look, the world is going bananas. This is going to happen. This is going to happen. And then it rings true. It feels right. And the anxiety springs out. The difference is a belief. And the belief is, yes. Because real is the better. I was turning, whatever, I'm going in. Oh, yeah, just ask for a minute. Yeah, like I don't get the you create, I don't get the you create side of it at all. That never comes up. So there's no belief like that coming up.
But, yeah. But I get a package. It's like a package is there that hasn't disappeared out of the system yet. So the package will be the checklist, you know, have to get the wardrobe together. That hasn't been done in 10 years. Have to get, you know, stop flatting at the age of 50, you know, that sort of thing. You know, this is a long checklist. It's miles behind everybody else's checklists, you know. And so there's no belief, no thought that I've created that, you know. It's just like clearly in the system. You know um and there would be the whole package of angst around you know and it might be constantly there i'll call it in the bubble so it might be in that bubble of likejust all the focuses on, you know, getting that checklist off or remembering the checklist, this, you know, memories and angst in the body come up about the checklist and maybe, you know, constant.
Yeah. Da-da-da comes up, but no thoughts that I created any of it and no thoughts that... It should be different. Any belief that it's other than a non-dual kind of existence, you know. But still, the package and the reactions and the checklist thoughts and, oh, that has to happen next for relaxation, you know. So that stuff comes up, even though there's no... anyone's creating that next you know this is going to come out of the system when it comes out that's no one that's not not questioned or no thoughts don't come up around that um but yeah still the angst bubble but then i noticed you know just come in here regularly and the post-it to empty everything out so like while you've been talking before it's just a sense of quite strong um angst in the body and just a relaxation and my thoughts are coming up about it at all but more intense the set you know feelings and um but um some thoughts about memories about what to say maybe um that are disappearing as we speak umThere's nothing behind this expression, by the way.
It's there, but there's nothing. No, no, I can see where you're heading. Yeah, I can't. I've lost it. So. No, you can see things popping up without the idea. Yeah, and then after a while, more recently, so then that package isn't coming up the same way. So it's like, hmm, okay, a day was just sat in front of a Chinese drama on the TV, you know, about 20 gigabytes got used because there hasn't been a move to try and, you know, streamline the firewire, fire stick, whatever. And, but the other package of angst and, oh no, then this next practical thing has to happen, rather, or even just the smaller, the primary thing of something has to be let go before things improve.
Even that one might not show, it might just be, oh yeah, okay, that's that now, that's what's happening now. And oh, that's nice, that whole package of angst around the checklist didn't move, hasn't been shown up lately. But then, you know, time will then bubble will go back into to work on the checklist, you know, that behavior will happen. Salad bowls will get Googled for a day, you know, things like that. But, um, And a little bit of angst might pop in and they might back off quicker. Like, oh, okay, that was interesting. Where did that come in?that lately yeah so it's kind of yeah like sort of halfway between what people say about being believed in and and about being not having a no thought you know for hours yeah and and the and the main thing is to just see the mind unfolding see what arises in around and also what arises in the mind and leaving it unaltered unmodified uncorrected just just whatever arises and then being no thing being the space like being the cognizing witnessing presence like i had an example was it i think a week ago or something uh julia was going somewhere and and dean gave us a ride she needed to buy some stuff and there was a chinese woman with very expensive porsche car and she basically the other car was parked in scar was parked and she reversed back into it but because her car is very expensive straight away she started making picture oh no no no i'll make it up that he did that so his insurance will pay for it well opportunist and and who knows she might even she might even believe Well, she might even believe, who knows, in a moment of stress, the mind can throw out fake memories.
Who knows? I mean, there's nothing to incriminate. Lying is very mechanical. It is mechanical. Extremely mechanical. So if in her conditioning, the instinctive lying to protect is being habituated, then again, there is no...there who had any choice to do anything else she's as innocent machine doing its own conditioning as everyone else but now we're getting back home julia is packing the suitcase she's going to america next day and we were supposed to have a little bit of a catch-up and the thing comes up we'll have to file the claim put the insurance because she's already the police didn't want to talk of her because there's nothing like this car wasn't even touched she had a Porsche so she will have a little scratch but it wasn't really any of our business what was happening but still there was a conditioning to do the needful before you relax and then one mind will behave in this way you know like you might be very responsible michael and then if the mind is coming up or this is serious this has to be attended or tony with checklists this has to be attended It is already preconditioned.
That's how the mind was wired. Another person would say, nah, let's get drunk and let's go and lie around and put the TV on. Who cares? It will work. And we see people like that living under the bridges or getting. And who says that this conditioning is better than that conditioning? There is stress induced in the system because the dream requires attending.So you are equally registering presence for the stress and attending, for the judge yapping, for the checklist arising. You are still the presence, the no thing, aware of whatever is arising, seriousness arising. Oh shit, you know, leg broken, quickly put the band-aid or any other urgent situation, speeding, fine, police, doesn't matter what is arising.
There is always that relaxed presence registering the arising. And now learning about your machine, learning about your mind, how much narrative it is going to roll, how long it is going to chew over that event. Wow, what a fascinating adventure of learning. The idea, no, it shouldn't be this way. I prefer it the other way. Well, include that in watching. What is that I who wants something else? What is that I that is objecting to the way the machine is conditioned? Because that is a part, especially the hallucination of the separate self having a say and imagining being a doer and having an impact on how the situation will resolve, how I will grow and progress on the path, or how I will get more and more clear.Those narratives are just as mechanical as burping and farting.
And also to bring the leaving unaltered, basically, thing, that also wrecks a bit of agency with leaving, you know. So to bring it back to mechanical neutrality, yeah, I would say the experience is more that, like, Those things don't happen. So at some point, you know, at points, those things don't happen. So it's not really a leaving process. They just don't happen. There's no one to leave it alone. Yeah, and the experience is that, you know, you just see that they're not happening. when they were. And, um, And also thoughts that they can be left might stop showing up as well, you know. So the notions that someone can do it will also stop happening too.
So that's really what's going on. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There's no one to leave it alone. There is no one to not engage with anything. Those pointers are just to remind, they're just reminders that look, space doesn't object to what arises, even if what arises is the commentary over commentary and rejection of a judgment over judgment. That's what arises. If the little bit of attention can just return to space, to that registering presence, it doesn't matter how many layers of narrative arises, how much seriousness and importance and even the idea of separate self. If that is showing up on the screen in the awareness and it's kind of amazing.
And that space isn't bothered. If you can actually realize that no matter how violent storm,there is that layer or not even a layer there is a presence registering storm that is not objecting that is not bothered always even if you bring like the memories of the situations traumatic situations or questionable situations They were all registered and the registering of a situation wasn't shaken. There is always that unshakable stillness underneath all that is happening. Even if the happening feels like 100% of attention is completely taken. Let's say I'm avoiding the accident on the road. There is no witness watching. No, attention is completely, completely engaged. And that completely engaged attention still registered.so that I can say the attention was completely engaged.
So this is where it gets complicated with the pointing and with the language. So which of it is me? Am I this space or am I this attention? It feels like I am the one attending. It feels like I am the one looking. I am the one imagining. I am the one who's anxious. So which one is I? And this is where the pointer of no separation. There is no separation. Can you separate the one who is aware of the field of awareness? Can you separate the anxiety from the awareness of the anxiety? In the language we say anxiety has been registered, but can you actually divide it and separate?
Like can you separate the objects in the room from the capacity of seeing? The capacity of seeing is singular. Everything that arises in it, including the eyes that are part of the whole field of seeing, inseparable one. So now the registering capacity, the cognizing capacity, the cognizing emptiness, and everything that arises are completely one, inseparable. You want to comment? No, no. No. So it really is the idea that, okay,I am, there is a dream arising in the space when there is no dream. It's a faulty idea. It is only used for the sake of pointer. But there isn't too. There is no empty space in the content.
There is just... Emptiness forming emptiness vibrating into forms if there was no content there was no there is no space if there is no dreaming there is nothing at all there is no waking there's no such thing as non-dream or absence of a dream even absence of a content in the dream It's just how the dream arises, the existence. And they say, okay, but there is some of them, some of the speakers or books or say that there is prior to I am. Of course, I am only comes when you learn words and when the attention is directed at itself. When there is no directing of attention, well, still Sat Chit Ananda, again, prior to the labels that were put on the fact.
It's just so ridiculously simple that speaking about it complicates it. But by putting it in words... Yes, and yet there is no choice in speaking or not speaking. If speaking is happening, that's what's happening. And then trying to articulate that which is so inintuitive and so obvious and so undeniable and trying to present it in a way using dualistic language even though it's just completely device any description is completely ineffable and beyond language wow and still happening what a joke Yeah, there's been a movement here just to ditch the notion of attention and just go with showing up from now on. So, yeah, see how that unpacks.Yeah, Tony brought us a beautiful New Zealand chocolate and it's...
Oh, it's Vanuatu. Oh, right. Okay. Still yummy. Is it sweet or not? Who cares? You want to know. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummy. It's yummyI had something earlier, but that's gone. But if it comes back, I'll mention it.
Maybe the association with the mechanical mind and, uh, and that which always is. And I think the dilemma that Michael was mentioning earlier was the fact that there's no association with one's essential nature. So the mind just goes through this like a concrete mixer going around and around all the time. But the thing is, it's a good thing because that's a learning within itself. Some sort of understanding.And so when the mind is associated with its essential nature, then I think that's when all that sort of stuff stops. You don't get into these mental loops or mental masturbation or whatever. You've already come. I don't know.
That's what I was thinking when this discussion was going on. Yeah, I haven't been thinking much of it. That's a good thing. Just listening and listening happening. It's just watching what pops up from time to time and, you know, 99.999% is completely irrelevant. But, you know, I've just gone through a pretty, I'm still working very hard at the moment and doing very long hours. When I'm not working, I just feel like exhaustion coming over and just let that happen. And yeah, I guess that's helping not think too much as well. But nothing much else to add at the moment. It's nice to be here. Yeah, good to have you here.
And yeah, well, they are parts in life, like Bob was saying, you know, like a river moving through.very fast through this rough patches and waterfalls and whirlpools and things. And again, the self-regulating nature and even the brilliance of the mind complaining about it. Even the complaint, even having too much, I can't go on like this, I'm going to break or I'm going to, the cortisol level or whatever, even that has its place. It is a self-organizing universe. Everything here, if it's the scene from that neutral... Neutral sort of cognizing emptiness perspective has its place and it's an expression of the same love of being not wanting to overwork yourself and not have time to breathe and to just enjoy the nature even that hatred for the overwork is a love of being is that behind it is just oh i care for myself more i wish i had more of you know like yeah it just doesn't life doesn't always work out in ways that make the body feel comfortable You know, like I hear you and you can say, well, what's wrong right now if you don't think about it?
But the reality is that there are times that are really difficult for the body, whether you think about it or not. It's a fact. It's not.Oh, yeah. You know, so. What's your experience, T? Did you experience that more aging or when you were younger? Oh. Similar experience. Generally, I'm speaking very broadly. Yeah. I guess generally I'm finding things much harder now than they were. I thought life was going to get easier, but it hasn't. And not just in the physical ageing side of it, just, I mean, I know you can think about like you projected a certain... Something for your future, whatever that meant at the time.
And it is still hard to know about, like, am I imagining a better past or a better future, which doesn't exist as well.When I think about it and in my memory, it seems that I had an easier time. Even though I went through difficult times, it didn't seem like it was as exhausting and as challenging as it is now. Now, whether that's... I can't say that's real anymore because it's in the past or in my mind or in my imagination. However, my... I don't know, the perception is that now is difficult. But is it? Now, now I'm sitting here, I get that, but it's hard to reconcile with the fact or the seeming fact, whatever.
How do you put this into words? You know, like there are times when it just seems. Like very difficult and it happens to lots of people you know yes so it's not it feels very personal but but i also understand that it's you know on another level that is just happening and different things happen to different people at different times and That's just life.If you keep going along these lines, like as you're describing, you're actually, like you watch, it's like deconstructing. Yeah. And you're actually saying it. It's actually deconstructing itself. It is. How is that even happening? Yeah, if you're in a place, like now, even saying that in a place like now, if now is okay, That's some really good news.
Yeah. It's always now. Yeah. Well.Now I have to. Yeah, I mean, now I get that. Yes, yes. However, okay, well, how does that being in your body get through difficult situations in the same way as how does my, whatever this is here, get through? Difficult situations and I don't always have well I don't have the answer because it just seems that something else happens something else happens and probably the same something else that's digesting the food and yeah yeah And sometimes it doesn't. See, you know, like Bob was, he had cancer for two years before he died. And then he died. Sometimes it doesn't get better.
Sometimes it gets worse and worse and worse. And then the dream ends. So to actually say, and of course, you know, really, really sorry to hear that you're going through the rough patch because I don't wish it to anybody, especially anyone. So it is sometimes that, you know, the river of life does take you to really, really heavy contracted. It's like screaming, like think of people really having debilitating physical condition, chronic pains, people being in jail, people being in families that are being abused.physically or emotionally yes there is a lot of suffering in that circumstantial sort of a dream when you think of and when you project or imagine time other than now situation other than now which includes comparing you know like comparing to the way my body was 20 years ago when i could go to the mountains and walk for 16 hours and just not even get puffed up right now this is not happening so i could just really make myself miserable with the fact of aging but if i don't compare but just find myself witnessing the present difficulty like you know like when bob was lying on his deathbed and there was a pain and being completely present to taking another piece of opioid opening the medication give it to him giving him water asking the pain opening the stomach bag emptying the pool whatever being present to what's happening without the idea that shit you know three years ago there was no cancer we could go for long walks we didn't have to have the stomach bug we didn't have to have opioids this is shit but without that comparison situation was so much worse than it could have ever been like you know if we keep comparing but without that comparisonIt's funny enough, but we did live in a persistent state of appreciation for still being here, present to the dream.
Even in the moments where pain was surfacing, of course, pain was the call for attention and then the pain was attended to. Sometimes there are situations when pain cannot be attended to. And then the call may be to end the dream. And I had a couple of people in my life who did actually found that call in their system and the dream ended. And there is nothing wrong with that either. It's a social stigma associated with that. I hope this is never going to happen to you. I hope it's never going to happen to any of you or anyone that you care for. But technically, in this self-organizing universe, without any little person in there, with just the habit of the mind constantly complaining that things are not to the speed, that you know though i have both eyes and both legs and both arms and roof over the head and i don't live under the bridge and i'm not in poverty and my family is still alive and and all those things are happening no life's not worth living because the narrative says so and my experience is that life is not what not worth livingAnd all the blessings are completely overlooked.
And this is believed into experience. Therefore, some big hunt full of medications or jumping off the building happens. So in 100 years, none of us is going to be there anyway. So right now, this privilege of staying present to the unfolding, whether the unfolding is a dark night or it's a bright day or whether it's a cold winter or it's a hot summer. The truth is, it's just now. And that now is the eternity. But the content is changing. No matter how dark the night is, it's not going to last. It's not going to be there forever. Yes, but it has been long enough. You know, for the last 10 years, my body is going down and it's getting worse.
Yes, and it may keep going worse. It may even get like, if you get to your 90s, it may even get cancerous. And I've been working with many people in their 90s. They were dying of loneliness apart from being cancerous. And they were looking forward to falling asleep and never waking up. And that part of the dream is still temporary. And it is the only way that life essence can actually glimpse its own existence. And then poof.And Jyoti also says like on the same topic, without the comparison or overthinking, it can just be about what's the next step in this moment. Yeah, what's around the corner, Bob used to say all the time.
Ah, that's anticipation. No, it's curiosity. You're talking about something else. I quoted Bob, so this is not the same thing. Anticipation is something that takes the mind away from the now. That's the thought. And what you said, Kat, about the appreciation, like looking at where you've got the comfort, you've got the house, you've got a warm bed, you've got people who love you, you've got food, you've got... So it's about that attention as well, isn't it? And what we put the focus on. And then Sandra tells a beautiful story about how she looks at photos of herself from four or five years old, four or five years ago.
And then she'll look at the photo and she goes, you know what, I actually look quite good then. Yeah, but at the time she's looking in the mirror, she's looking in the mirror going, oh, I've got these wrinkles around my eyes, oh, I'm getting old. And she's done that. A lot of time retouching. And she's been doing that ever since she was in her 20s. Like she'd be looking at herself and treating my thighs.My bum's too big. All this sort of stuff. And then in 10 years'time, she looks back and she goes, oh, they're good. And that's what we're constantly doing. I just appreciate it.
I love the attention because if we can turn the mind around and do the attention on what you do have and what is good, then, yeah, there's so much more. But even that is a condition, you know, like if you don't. If that is not conditioned, the sort of a positive thinking, if the thought of looking at the whole picture doesn't arise, you can't, you just keep complaining, you just stay in the darkness. I find that the movements here that lead towards like more lightness, release or relaxness, it's just generally quite often a thought that comes up and a get rid of the inner turmoil.
And then the other stuff does pretty much as a package follow, you know, proportionately and, you know, over time. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, I've just noticed things like, you know, the angst will disappear when the, you know, comparisons and the judgments and that aren't showing up anymore because of the non-duality stuff we do. You know, the emotional, but there's also the physical. And here, there's just usually, you know, some kind of internal process of release going on. And it's incredibly visual because of the setup and all.It's just happening when it's happening. But then sometimes there'll be a direct physical random thing. Like the other day, there was like some release, because here it's quite spatially, like there'll be a release going on over here, out there, over here, and back there, or whatever.
And there was a big one going over here. I forget what the theme was, what it was even related to. And probably some kind of financial... Being imposed upon financially or something. I don't know, some release is going on. But it was just sort of happening in an area just around here. And then there was like feeling like some kind of, then it just feels airy, like air can blow through it or it's just quite released. Empty. And then suddenly my ears just like opened up, like, you know, they've been blocked for months. And when I actually went to the air hospital, he was saying like, I can't even get the wax that's stuck onto the eardrum off because it'd be too excruciating.
And they put some of that fizzy stuff down, but it didn't, yeah, it didn't put, I should have gone back and got more. And yeah, I've been blocked for months and I'm just doing a release and immediately, you know, physically, everything opens up. So, you know, I just find that generally there is a movement here to do the inner, prioritize that. And actually this notion's come up that, you know, it's really good to have all this big issue and that big issue because it gives an opportunity for something else to be. Something some fear gets sparked and that gets followed and some other notion as some area gets worked on you know or not even worked on but you know just starts going through a processAnd then some physical things clear and big areas of life suddenly become no package of stress involved, you know, and de-stressing the body clearly is going to help, you know, physically.
So, you know, an energetic kind of process. Does seem to just be the thing here and it does seem to work so in whatever ways obviously if it's something huge then that's not going to work as obviously but That's beautiful. That's beautiful and inspiring. And this is really also part of this gatherings that we remind each other that even when the mind comes up with a very, very strong complaint, you know, something is wrong with the body, there is a pain or there is an exhaustion or there is the emotional turmoil. Even voicing it and be able to just kind of remind each other to stay open you know if the problem has been voiced now staying open and looking for the solution like tony was saying you know relaxing the nervous system finding the inspiration suddenly something is heard somewhere and it kind of brings the the remedy to it just
that trust in life and openness and that even though it's a content of the dream which is kind of a secondary primarily we are actually looking into the nature of a dream and nature of a dreaming itself that the content of a dream whether it is pleasant or painful is secondary but with that attitude of openness the the secondary content of the dream is completely included that's why it's commonly reported that psychological suffering does not have to be present And it may not go in one big blast.
The habit of the mind complaining, always looking what is not, always wanting what is not, may persist. But if that habit is seen as just part of the landscape, it doesn't have to cause much pain. And yet resolution, staying completely open and finding a resolution, like, you know, like the resolution of the accident thing. It needed attending. It wasn't pleasant. It was too ridiculous. It was. You know like come on try to even not get dysregulated we laughed about it but 10 years ago i would just fume with fury the ridiculousness of it too fearful to be unhappy Yeah. So that has to be a quick fix.Take the mic.
Give her a mic. Yes, back to the whole uncomfortable feelings thing. So, yeah, the people who can only accept mainstream thought are afraid of anything to be more open-minded and just sitting there more open-mindedly. Yeah, it's just, and want to be in a hurry. It's just quick, get me the quick fix because it's too uncomfortable like this. And it's way too uncomfortable to dive in and see, sit with something more uncomfortable to actually unravel and let go of this whole thing, you know. So, yeah, I guess it's that. Yeah, quick fix, conservative thing, fear. I wonder if anyone who is on Zoom with us would like to add something to the discussion.
Anyone would you like to unmute and throw a question or description or something? I wonder, Jane, would you like to actually, because we kind of addressed that idea of no self and yet presence being still here, always here. Can you hear me? Am I on mute? Yeah. Yeah. Just, it's. I think it's been resolved. It was a good discussion, Kat. Thanks for that. I mean, just for the benefit of others, I was just, I guess one of the issues about Advita is that you can talk at different levels. You can talk about the here and now. You can talk about the mind-body. And then you can talk about the dream.And then you can talk about, as Dino sometimes talks about, just it's all vibration and it's all a waste of time anyway.
Let's go home and not talk about it. And I just, you know, it does my head in. Because I'm a fairly structured thinker and so I say, let's just get these boundaries organised and let's just footnote which level we're talking. So it's just my stuff. And that was a really good discussion. So I'm fine. Thanks. Thank you. No, that is a good point. You're totally right. There are different angles. There are many, many different lenses through which the pointers are being used, you know, like, yes, even using a timeline happening now or using the nothing appearing as everything. Emptiness is form, form is emptiness. Very, very like centuries old pointer from Buddhism.
They all valid, but yes, not all at once. Exactly. For me. Yeah. Anyway, that was a great discussion. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone? Anyone else? Would you like Anand or John or David or Sim? Anyone would like to add something, ask something?It was just an invitation. I think we have another comment on Facebook. No, we had without the comparison. Oh, no, we had that one. That one. Okay. So. Yes. Yeah. And also it must be a big release of you can let go of needing to live longer. Yes, that is a really great point. And the idea generally of being preoccupied with that which is not happening, which is a habit of the mind, and it's a beautiful habit.
It really comes from love of being. You know, I want to be healthy. I want to be safe. I want to make sure that tomorrow is safe. I want to make sure that there is no war, that there's no shortage of food, that I'm not going to run out of money. Wow, wow, what a beautiful statement of love of being. But taken seriously, what a nightmare. Because none of that can ever be guaranteed. So staying faithful to that which is happening right now, the current breath. The subtle joy of being alive rather than investing 100% of attention. I'm not saying that anyone has a choice in the matter.
Again, it is just cognizing, recognizing what is the current habit of the mind. If the current habit of the mind is preoccupation with, yes, but this,This is shit in comparison to the past and it's gonna get worse. Recognize that habit. See it from that curious openness in which, aha, this is what it is doing. Clearly, it is invested. In the love of being clearly if it didn't give a shit it wouldn't even have that judgment statement if there was no preference for love and safety and comfort that complaint wouldn't take place so this is what can be recognized even now even if the mind is really preoccupied with comparison and and fear of things getting worse or bursting or not making it or Even now, this can be recognized as the expression of the loving care, love of being, preference for safety and comfort.
And being again open to it and curious about it and seeing it as the appearance in space. Here I am, because I am, because I am conscious, because I am present, there is the mind looking at the whole landscape of a dream, wanting it to be better, wanting it to be different. That's what's happening. Lovely. And now, what's happening now? The breath is happening.The seeing is happening. Oh, another complaint is happening. Wow. In that openness, in that curious, spacious awareness, because there is an existence without it, like Bob's metaphor of the computer, you pull the plug or you disconnect the battery. There's no dream. There's no movie.
There is not even a bad movie without the power. So even if the dream is uncomfortable, it is only here because I am. I am. There is an existence. There is consciousness. There is a love of being. That's why the mind is complaining. No, this is not up to my standards. You deserve better than that. Okay, thank you very much. Again, look again. Current breath, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, complaining, imagining, imagining past, imagining future. The more relaxed attention, the more curiosity, the more subtle appreciation for being alive. And the less attention involved in the content, in what is happening on the screen, what is happening in the dream.
And in the subtle appreciation for aliveness, which is not for granted anymore, is appreciated in the moment.that appreciation becomes a new setting. Suddenly, even the mind complaining is, wow, that's appreciated. We used to have a really, really good laugh with Bob because the mind does its job. It still does whatever it is designed to do. Oh, shit's raining again. We're not going to go out for lunch. Oh gosh, Bob has three individual calls today. I don't feel like it. And who cares? And we both laugh. Anything the mind comes up with, yeah, there is no one to care. What a reason to celebrate. The mind can do whatever it does.
And no one takes it on board wow and the possibility of recognizing the mind as just another phenomena arising rather than i the identity assuming to be my narrative assuming to be that commentary I am the one hearing it rather than one speaking it. I hear the mind yapping. So I am the space, the presence, the cognizing emptiness, cognizing through seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. Well, imagining also, but that imagining goes...primarily seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, because that's related to now. Imagining is not related to now. It's past, future, what's not happening, what's not here, what's not now. So you are more of a hearing of the complaining mind than the mind talking about past and future because hearing is more immediate and it is right now.
And you don't know what it is going to say next. In the hearing, you will discover. We're discovering that that's the end. You want to add to that? To me, like five senses is very like fuzzy. There's so much more. But anyway, it's very confusing. Proprioceptive, kinesthetic, all sorts.Yeah, for me, the five senses, especially with your Vanuatu chocolate, were all included. The chocolate smelled absolutely fantastic. Didn't have to be kinesthetic or visual. And it smelled and it tasted. And thank you for that. Oh, yeah. There is. Okay. Thank you, everyone. Yeah. Thank you, everyone. You want to?