Meeting with Kat, Sunday 6 September 2026 (Facebook live)

We are good to go. Hey guys. Oopsie. Well, welcome. I'm going to start recording and we have, there is Dean and I and Tony in the room and two cats. And if people come late, they may come or they may not. We'll see. Okay. And so, John, are you up for a challenge? Everyone's waiting and there were also other comments in YouTube waiting for you. Oh, okay. Great. Positive ones, I hope. Yeah. Wonderful. Yeah, sure. Let's do it. I'm excited. It'll be interesting as I... I say a lot of this out loud, but typically it's not vocalized. And yeah, if you guys have anything to add, please jump in at any time.

But I'll say something I was thinking about. It's so cool that we are participating in a kind of informal tradition that's been going on since prehistory. You know, this process of trying to understand and using language not to point to other words. But to point directly to experience. Which is kind of the nature of pointing out. And yeah, it's a real miracle that we have that capacity. So, yeah, what I was thinking about was kind of continuing on some stuff I was saying last week. But I'll pick up with a pointer of Bob's. And kind of the crux of the matter. Which is really recognizing that you already are it.

You already are exactly what you're looking for. This appeared to me, I kind of turned such an obvious statement into something that it wasn't. I felt, oh, it's already within me. It's a quality I possess. And the more I stick with this, the more I see, no, it's literally who you are without exception. So, a lot of the pointers are trying to help us to recognize and realize that we already are it. And what keeps us from that recognition is purely conceptual. Okay. So, let's see. I jotted a couple things down. Yeah. Kind of going back to Nisargadot and so forth. Like a lot of the issue that comes up is that we create this false sense of the self and within the expansiveness of awareness, a certain amount of that content starts to become identified with.

And then the issue becomes that we, as this illusory concept of an individual, wish to become liberated. But we can't be. So this process involves something of a paradigm shift where you're breaking the wall. You're not freeing yourself as a character. You're recognizing that you are kind of a character in this extensive movie and that it's just one continuum of awareness. So when we ask, well, what do we do? It will kind of be like asking, what does awareness do? It's already doing it. It's already aware. There isn't anything more to it except for seeing through where we are mistaken. And one thing I mentioned last week that I thought was really fascinating was that I was, I think someone's audio is on, so it's kind of maybe if people can silence.

Okay, great. So when I was meditating, there's this sense of trying that can come about. And then you kind of try not to try and you get into this kind of mental knot. And even at moments like that, to recognize that you already are it is that even this process of mental entanglement, it still exists within awareness. So I looked at this kind of mental content of effort and saw, well, where is there any effort in it? Which is to say, this feeling of say confusion or sensations, is it trying? Is that content trying? And no, it's just arising with an awareness. And that's what's always happening.

It's just a constant process of there being this impersonal arising. And the placement of concepts onto this creates this illusion through language that it isn't one, that it's multiple, and that you're separate from it. So taking with that idea, say someone is feeling sad. How do you know you're sad? What is arising in your experience that signals sadness? And it could be some sensations or some temperature, some heaviness. And it's a constant process of that. And it's a constant process of that. And it's a constant process of that. And it's a constant process of that. Some thoughts accompanying that. But then ask, is your sadness sad?

Is whatever you call sadness, is that sad? And you'll see, no, it's just some stuff that's present. It's just some content that's arising. And at that moment, there's a conceptual overlay. Feeling yourself as a separate being, essentially, you now know what it feels like to just be a concept. And that's what we do with everything, whether it's a thought, recognizing that a thought itself can't think. It can't know anything. It's known. And this applies to the entirety of our experience. It's simply arising as content. And that's all of it. And that's all of it. All of the senses, thought, it's just content. There's no center to it.

So the question that comes up, well, if that covers all perception, all conception, all objects, all experience, then where am I? Where is there room left for me? Well, it's just the fact that it's known. And this doesn't occupy space specifically. It doesn't, it's not an object. It's the subject. That's who we are. So in feeling into that, it's kind of like in the space where you are not identified with the problem solver, everything simply is known, and you are the knowing of it. So I don't know if you guys want to jump in at any point. I can ramble forever. But I want to make sure it's connecting.

All right. All right. Thank you. No, that's really beautiful, John. That's really, really clear presentation. So keep rambling because I think it's beautiful and it's fresh and it's clear. It's lovely to hear. Okay. Great. Okay. Thanks. I'll keep checking in for encouragement. So let me see here. Yeah. So let me see if I can emphasize a couple of points more. But in this recognizing that we are. We already are it. You know, this is a dots. Any path will lead you away from reality. Any path you take. So simply sitting in the presence of this moment. Really a lot of the work we can do is just to find where there are illusions and break them down.

I don't really know exactly how this coincides with with Bob's teaching and the saga dots teaching. But for me. It's been a consistent process of seeing where there are dualities and recognizing that they're they only exist in thought. And one of the central ones is what is knowing and the known. And when we recognize that all that is appearing right now in awareness is the knowing of it. To me, that's where the rubber meets the road. Where I'm really able to see. Okay. I'm able to see that I am synonymous with this expression. Because something can't appear without being known. And something can't be known without an appearance of it.

Yeah, I think I'll, I'll let you guys jump in a little bit because I'm kind of, you had a loss for words at this point. Okay, maybe, maybe Dino can ask you some questions because that, you know, seekers have questions. Sure. And answering questions always helps. I think, can you say, can anything be separated from, from the knowing of and, and, and like knowing is, is in itself, isn't it like a, it's an activity, I guess, like, like, because there's the manifested universe appears like in movement. And the knowing of it is moving in a sense. Yeah. Because if there's no movement, there's no, there's no knowing.

And, and it's, it's an amazing, can you separate like, awareness from knowing? No. Yeah. Nor being. It's, it's the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. And if you have any sense, like, you know, for instance, like, you know, you can't be perfect. you know for example that you exist you can't find any existence well you can't fact that you are a weapon something is happening and that's it that's you that that sense of um of any form of presence and i think bob had um a pointer start with the fact that you are it remind me exactly what it was and see if there's anything separate from that or seemingly separate from it is there something along those lines yes he would say you are already that start from here and see what obscures it because the realization that you are already here that you already are that that you are is constant it's just we lose sight of it because we focus into the stories dreams ideas and and concepts like separation and and and the overlay of that projected world of objects and subjects and divisions and generally the language the mind but yes generally you already are you you know that you are and no one can deny it right no one can argue with it yeah you know that you are and you know that you're aware and this this is already exactly as it is and always has been it's just that language comes in and in its own process creates creates division plucks things out of the oneness as if to see that they are separate from that wholeness but um it no it yeah it never really happened right yeah yeah that's that's why nothing ever really happened yeah and and and there's the in this is where like it's kind of my growth edge with it but in recognizing that there's no doer there's nothing to do nothing is ever done and once this is recognized nothing ever nothing changed all it's all the way it has been like like you said earlier um about sort of keep remembering or or or or noticing when the sort of duality comes up and and and we're recognizing that like as a that's that's a happening too isn't it like that's an an an automatic part of the appearance in in itself that that movement as well yeah that movement and i think also these assumptions because just like for example saying there's the the knower the knowing and the known when you actually look for them they're not there it's just because we don't really think to question that we don't think to um uh question these conceptual overlays you know that in in as it says like in some in the early um polysutras like in seeing there is only this seeing in hearing there's only the heard but it's just the sense so you go through the five senses and thought and there's nothing else there there's no other separate self so that can be simplified um in knowing only the known and that is just simply this one singular or at least non-dual arising and everything is appearing simply as it is when even even when concepts and everything else are filling it it's just i'm trying how to to state it's everything's kind of in its right place it it's everything is self-knowing and self-aware not a thinker here or uh a seer here in objects but just this kind of landscape that's of awareness and um within this within this landscape um it's kind of like it's the recognition that it's fully already happening this isn't zed and zen what they call zed and zen what they call there's no need to wear a second head because this is the conceptual overlay on everything that makes us think that there's some form of struggle to exist you know like we're holding on to something for dear life that if we let go there's any ground to hit but um all of these senses are happening automatically and when you go through them again there's nothing left sight sound um sensation smell taste and cognitive thought and that's the whole show i think one of the biggest shifts is recognizing this kind of um again paradigm shift from thought being something that's used to figure out and to understand to recognizing that they are effortlessly arising um inert thoughts that they can't and and it's like this kind of turnaround again using these words to to mull something over and to figure it out you see that they're just occurring and thoughts can't think it's just another sense like they say in tibetan buddhism it's it's thinking is the sixth sense it's just something else you're seeing and that's where when we're able to let go we disidentify from thought and maybe some other senses that we find ourselves in we're able to let go and we're able to let go and then we understand that there's a lot of that...

that exist at the center of awareness or the seeming center of awareness. And then this is what Ramana Maharshi says, it's like putting an iron in the fire and the iron heats up to the point where it starts to think it's producing the heat. But once you pull it out, it just loses all of that heat. And this is where true self or like the small self thinks it's the self-self, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I like when you use the concept of paradigm shift. I had this last week, a conversation with someone who has pretty good sort of conceptual grasp one could say, but there is no such thing as conceptual grasp, but could relate to the fact that there is a perception, shift of perception, that the perception from the mind's perception and division versus the relaxed sort of gaze, but it isn't really a shift.

It isn't perception. It isn't assuming identity of a self or assuming the identity of a space. It is dropping the assumption of needing the identity altogether. Because if there is really just that space, that open field of energy, the unified field of infinite potentiality or whatever, even calling it a field is already going too far to the forest because that's the concept. There is no field really. There is no space. There is no space even. Even the space is the imposition, is mental image. But that potentiality, which neither exists nor it doesn't, doesn't need identity. It isn't even there. It isn't not either. It's neither of that.

So trying to grasp it or having a conceptual idea of what it is, having a mental image of what it is, is not it. Concept. Right. Right. The conceptual or intellectual understanding is completely invalid. It's a mental projection. It's an image. So it is dropping all of that mental clutter and that's the paradigm shift. Dropping the mental clutter which comes naturally with the sense of identity as a me. Dropping it altogether, but how do you drop it? Is there even a you that needs to drop it or is just a spontaneous recognition that even the identity is a Three-Diagonal Circle? Exactly. Exactly. arising in that field or no field in that pure cognition in that emptiness cognizing so seeing yeah that's perfect coming and going seeing the identity changing is right right right yeah yeah that's that's the observation that when we are um you know this our experience is that we're thinking we're concerned we're worrying at that point there's an identification and um we don't realize that when you stop and you recognize there's just now all of that loses its meaning none of these problems need to be solved or attended to they're fully complete as thoughts in themselves in that moment and when you step back you just realize oh there's just some thought stuff here and then around that there's some spaciousness and there was this false assumption that um there is a separate self attending to these thoughts or that is these thoughts something along those lines but and that's why you said like what is there to do again it's just recognizing the truth to the best your abilities um and noticing that again when it's all presence all of it loses any form of meaning the the the world around us isn't it doesn't it's it's strange to say it's meaningless but it that's can sound quite negative or nihilistic it's not that at all it's just that you need awareness to witness words and witness meaning you don't need meaning and words to witness awareness they're just simply what's arising in it and it's not that it's meaningless in that sense it's that it's beyond meaning you know meaning is one thing that exists within it like reading a single page of a book versus having the whole thing but the book's infinite yeah yeah that's that's beautifully put yeah totally beyond meaning meaning is just another expression it's meaning is no different meaning to my life story meaning to my journey my relationships my career meaning to my growth my trauma healing all of that is arising simply the same way as the sweat on the skin or saliva in the mouth is just the arising it's a spontaneous arising and we put so much habitually because it's so juicy you know like having a saliva arising was a big deal but having a meaning meaning of life meaning of god or the importance of of my marriage or the well-being of my children rising in consciousness is so multidimensional, so juicy, so cruisy.

There's so many aspects to it is so loaded, is so emotionally charged that is literally irresistible and the dream machine is engaging because the attention is engaging because it's so it's so seductive in a way. And right, exactly. Think it gets habituated and the next thing it flips. You know, it's not a sunny day. I have a wonderful feeling how grateful I am for my wonderful family and a wonderful life. The next thing, how I hate my boss, how they disregard me, disrespect me, and this becomes reality. And I have people also practically on daily basis who spent a lot of put a lot of emphasis on arguing for suffering.

Like, no, this is true. I hate my body. My body is aging. I had to quit my job. Because my job, my boss didn't treat me properly. My mind told me to do that. How can I distrust my mind? I, you know, and really intensely arguing that no past is real. Absolutely. And this is all fine within that movie. When you watch the when you watch the show with meaning of your life, just like you watch the sunset on the beach. You know, yes, all those components are seemingly real. They are part of the picture. But is there absolute reality to it or they completely mental images, imagination depend on the just movement of energy?

Right, and that is their absolute reality. So if someone's having this conception of their past and it's it's you know, I know it well, look at it, how do you know it, what's arising right now? That signals that you have a past and then you can see that it's simply thought. That's where it's the reality of it. And one thing that's very kind of tricky about this process is we'll try to convince ourselves of something. You convince myself of a non dual truth and I'm going to force it on myself in one way or another. Or I'm going to practice it sufficiently and it'll you know, it'll somehow just click, but it really is how it already is, you know.

And for Bob to say, I'm not I'm not teaching you anything that's like that. I think that's just. That's to be driven home, because if there's an attempt to understand it or to create a philosophy of it, then you won't get that you really already are held by it. You know, it's like if there's an idea, let go of that. If you have a concept of God, like I think it was like a roomie or Kabir poem like kill God, you know, it's a bit drastic, but, you know, kill that idea. Let that go. If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill the Buddha, because it's.

Already present, it's not contained anything separate. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. I love the beautiful radical wording because really that's what stops the mind. That's what makes it pause because it's too shocking to even entertain in that regular way of operation, of navigating the the dream. Right, right, right. Recognition. You saw you saw on the ball. You know, any form of practice is going to be just let someone else in the room. Any form of practice is reasserting the idea of a me that is trying to achieve something later, this other time than now, and not only there is a separate me that could potentially possibly get anywhere else than in the now, but there is nothing to achieve.

Right, right. Yeah. You're fully reifying. The idea of a self and your your practice limits you to what you already know or think, you know, so ironically, it's keeping you in that place. You know, seeing these truths, I think we can go back to our kind of texts of origin or sacred texts and reviewing the Bible. Now, it's such different lens for me. You know, I will be done right is a very similar pointer. And Meister Eckhart, who was kind of a non dual teacher in the Christian tradition in Germany, he said even it's so that I will be done that even if you have a will for God's will to be done, you'll miss it.

You have to even let go of that. And then it's just again, what's already happening. And ultimately, even having an idea of what God should do for me is that is the expression of die. Will. Because there is no such thing as my will. So if I have the illusion that I can dictate God, how my life, my future, my enlightenment and all that other nonsense should look like that life essence which propels my program projector to even display the essence of energy that comes from God. So there is no way out is already. Yeah. So I feel separate. One could say that is that sense or that feeling or that belief or that idea is just how that one life omnipresence of God experiences itself through.

It's like, yeah, that's true. That's interesting. Yeah. It kind of seems unfair, you know, like I feel separate. I suffer. I long for oneness. I long for cosmic union. And I have very, very clear imagination of how it is going to look like in the future. And I know for certain this is not it. This is not right now. Even that whole landscape in which I imagine myself to be a person. I imagine myself to be separate. And I imagine myself to travel in time to the future in which I imagine myself to be joining. All that landscape is still how life is experiencing and expressing itself through that dream machine that is projecting separation.

Yeah. And without that projection, there is no cosmic joke. You only when you see the whole landscape, the image of me looking at the image of time, looking at the image of the future in which that will. If you see the whole movie, you just relax and you look, wow, what a joke. And it's all happening right now in consciousness propelled by the same. One could say electricity running through the projector, whether the movie of a drama, whether movies of a comedy or identity trying to find the grand enlightenment, become something in the future. Doesn't matter what the content is, as you said at the beginning.

Yeah, exactly. Oh, yeah, of course, there is no one there. It's just dream arising. And I am the presence that even that is a subtle identity. But but there is a presence here witnessing the dream or whether the dream is, oh, yes, but I'm still inferior. I hate myself. I want to kill myself. I'm not good enough. This is all content. Even the realization of the dream, waking up to the dream dream doesn't end. The dreaming goes on. But of course, yeah, of course, the the individualized sort of a content of the dream is a radical, radical shift because the psychological suffering is not there anymore.

Yeah. But that's right. Yeah, isn't a difference what they say. There is no difference between the enlightened and the unenlightened. There really isn't is still the same life using that particular vessel of vehicle projecting, casting the dream. And even that, again, we are moving away from the from the radical realization that there is no multiple vessels. It's just one dream. It's not like. Yeah. One vessel, another vessel, another vessel, vessels of the cat's. No, even that is just the arising the whole the whole planet with billions of people. And then last night you might you might have dreamt five other planets with other billions of other creatures.

Where are they? They just the content of the dream is constantly rolling. And what is here being present for the dreams to just flicker and display for all those, you know, like like they they talk about what they talk about, you know, simulation or the idea of of being in the game and just having that whole world projected. So it's not a bad idea. It's like, you know, whether it is generated by whatever human made machines in the future, projecting the past. Who cares? Those concepts are really not necessary. So resolving whether it is the technicality behind this or not. In the raw experience. Well, this is a dream machine.

Dreams are change of a thought that I can choose. But and the world multiverse of tomorrow arises with it. I can have a thought about my childhood. And funny enough, even the science, which is just another dream in consciousness, has a beautiful, beautiful load of research. Of people being tested for fake memories. You know, just get the bunch of thousands of of Americans and just put them into a light sort of receptive state and ask them if they can remember that big bunny in the Disneyland that was hugging them. And 60 or 70 percent can. After a while, recall that particular memory and there never was a bunny in a Disneyland.

It's absolutely impossible. More radically, people remember their childhood abuse. And that's tempering with the projector in a way that might not be very pleasant for that particular movie, for that particular dream. But from life's perspective, it's equally, wow, incredible. Yeah, I mean, that conceptually, again, going back to what I was saying before, it's like, if you're in a state of suffering, and granted, this is what's coming forth and what's being expressed right now, but like finding your suffering, how do you know, really know your suffering? And then ask, is that suffering, suffering? Is it suffering? Well, no, it's inert. It's just the arising of some material.

But there's this overlay, this identification, this use of language to give it meaning that it doesn't inherently possess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This can then be applied to so many things. You know, if you look at, it was Zen Master, I think it's Banke. He talked, it was such a similar message to Bob and Nisargadot, but, you know, that if he said, if I'm enlightened, then everyone is enlightened. Everyone has the same knowing that's automatically arising. But what happens is that when you identify with one part, you're at war with another part. He said that's trying to like, like trying to, you know, you're at war with another part.

You're trying to clean blood with blood. It simply doesn't work. So in this process of recalling our trauma, being angry at it or trying to heal it, ironically, in the world of what we call spiritual bypassing has become a big term from, I think, John Wellwood recently, and the bypassing is one's attempt to change it, one's attempt, perhaps even to heal it. Yeah. Now, I'm not disparaging psychology on a level that can be very important, especially if it's preventing like a suicide in that moment, like do what you got to do. But eventually to come to a place where you recognize that there is in full allowance of it to be what it is, it's unbidden, unchosen, arises on its own impersonally, and that you don't need to do anything with it.

It will change and will heal itself. And that should become something very different when you're no longer projecting onto it, creating concepts of it, but really allow it to fully be what it is. Then it starts to automatically change and heal on its own. Yeah, that's beautifully put. You know, the Bob's pointer, leave it unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. Leave it as it is. And if the urge arises in the whole system to go to a society. Psychologist or go to whatever form of therapy, do the bottom. Anything that arises is also life or is also that omnipresence or God or the energy moving. Leave that as it is, too.

And if that means that the body goes out, schedule the appointment and go and lie on the on the sofa in a psychologist for under 30 years. Leave it as it is to recognize that every action comes from the same source. Don't take credit for any of it. Going to psychologist, not going to psychologist. Even the action of suiciding is still the same. One life energy without that life essence. No one could poison themselves or anything. So even that when it happens, it is almost like blasphemous to say, leave it as it is. But to say, oh, try to fix it is equally. It's like, if there is no one there who either leaves it.

Okay. Fixes it. The any advice in that point is just another verbal diarrhea. Adding to the to the display is just also what is arising. So people who are fighting for preserving psychology or preserving therapy, they not people. There is no one there either is the life essence going through that belief and just no different to Jehovah Witnesses knocking the door. No different to vegans or anti. They're trying to give access trying to change the world is no one there. There's no little self is just a projector that is being conditioned in this particular way. Whether you are a fanatical football follower or you are whatever else that is just you look at Dean is that.

Is he the fanatic? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, and this is okay. This is where I get myself in a little trouble. But. It's interesting because even with the idea of something like suicide, you know, you look at this very kind of like objective stance of something like this Darwinian need for survival. It only it's our only, you know, drive and then we reproduce and so on. But suicide in its own way proves there's something more important, which is well-being, which is happiness. And that unless we have that, we'll even end our own existence because it's more important than existence. At least to that, to that being.

Yeah. Oh, that's, that's a great point. Yeah. Elaborate. Yeah, it is. No, it's, it's a good point. No, it is a good point because the love of being is right. The love of being love of agony of slow agony, even you know, that the chooks kept cages in tiny little case. If they have a loose wire, they will try to end their lives because living in agony. It's not. A love of being is actually an offense of being love of being thriving. It's not just merely putting up with agony. So it's nothing wrong with the, even with the suicidal ideations, but the fundamental question is, do you really want to kill the body?

You think you are the body and you want to kill it to end the agony. Oh, if there was a. Magic wand that will lift that identity out of it. Would you still want to die if there was no pain, if there was no longing, would you still want to die? And mostly the answer is no, though they are situation and they are justified and they recognize in the medical field when the machine is inherently broken and it shoots the crazy pain of crazy each that. I heard of a story. Of someone who was having an itch on the forehead literally, especially at night fractured her, her skull.

And infected the brain because the machine was projecting those. Crazy behaviors and and I know I had individual meeting with someone here at home, whose best friend signed up for euthanasia over 12 months ago and went ahead with it. He's not here anymore, but. The. Billy. He's doing great. I've already had a meeting with him back here, and I just have to tell you this is a. No. Characteristic condition of chronic pain. That was persistently taking the attention away. From any other experience and any other joy that could possibly be experienced was. Was just what life has offered us a solution. I just wasn't any better one.

And if you are not the body. If you are. Not. The mind. If you are. Not that. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with the eternity of the sleep? You know, you go to sleep, you love it. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, yeah. And I think for like the idea of this suffering, a lot of that comes into that place of identifying with one aspect of yourself and being at war with the others. And this is where all it really needs is that awareness, open, nonjudgmental, equanimous awareness, which is what we really are. And I think it's pretty beautiful and makes a lot of sense that this is God.

And, you know, in a lot of the Eastern traditions, also in the Western, I am that I am. But that very being. That's aware of all that's arising, that itself is completely free. That's the best thing one can do for someone who's in such a state of suffering is offer that because they're not in a place to offer it to themselves. So it's interesting in parts of India and still to the day, there's a tradition where you can go up to a stranger and ask them to play God for you. And what that is, is they just if they agree, they sit down with you.

And they listen. They don't advise. They don't do anything else. And you just talk to them. And when you're finished, you get up and leave. And I think that's it's very beautiful. That would be called playing God, just witnessing. Wow. That's lovely. No, you play God. There's no need to play anything. Exactly. Is there anything other than God? Like if you want to use that. Oh, it just kind of. Okay. If everything is God, like, is there anything other than God? You want to use that term, you know, or if it's energy, is there anything other than energy? Like, is there anything outside of energy or that's beyond energy or, you know, it's that's the one thing again, you know, before you mentioned something about.

Yeah. Yeah. I think there are really, you know, like different projectors and, and like if there's different projectors and they're all projecting the I am or that sense of presence. Is there really like 8 billion different senses of presence or is there just presence in itself? Omnipresence. Just omnipresence, which is, which is back to the same thing. God, all God, all knowing, all seeing, all powerful. powerful. And that includes all the billions of beings that appear in the dream at night that don't even have seeming physical existence in this particular setting. Yeah. Only can go beyond. Where does the imagination look? This is the limitlessness and the boundlessness of existence itself.

There is no, what do we want to talk about, multiverses and parallel universes and dimensions and wow, there's no end to it. There's no beginning to it either. Dream machine, they all have presence. That presence may be just as a mental projection, as a thought, or they may have a presence that feels really solid. But presence nonetheless is a common denominator. And the most common denominator is the consciousness. Consciousness that is actually wow to seeing it arising, seeing it in a daydream, seeing it in imagination, in the night dream, seeing it in worries or anything that arise. The whole multiverse is present on that blank screen of existence, pure existence.

Right. And I think that's the being consciousness bliss that when consciousness is free, it's free. And that's the thing that I love about being conscious. I love being conscious. I love being conscious. And being conscious is the moment that I'm fully allowed to express unhindered. It becomes incredibly blissful. But it's still something that one is aware of. There's still a preexisting awareness it seems. That like I guess would be that screen on which consciousness itself appears. Yeah. That, it does strike me that becoming aware of that, not just simply what you aren't, but the truth of that consciousness like kind of negative space that you are is very, very helpful to non-identification or to recognizing that you're everything.

I like the idea of negative space. That's nice. Yeah. Yeah. Just, just that, just that knowing, you know, that knowing. Yeah. Yeah. And also even the, you know, the idea of, of the screen and the content is of course, just in the language, in the direct experience, there's no way of separating the screen from the content. It's no way of separating. Even when you dream at night, the consciousness that is you, that is that presence, that is that field in which they are rising happens. They can't be separated just like in the direct experience that which is arising in the field of seeing can't be separated.

It's from that field of seeing. So even though it's just the language translates it, symbolic language to symbols and dualities, but direct experience is uncompromisingly simple. It's just like this. Right. It just is. And when you try to describe it after like recognizing, it's non-duality, it can seem incredibly paradoxical. Yeah. Like you can talk about like consciousness and awareness and all of a sudden there's, there's two things. There's a consciousness appearing in awareness and there's, there's, and it's my awareness that, you know, all of a sudden, you know, this is just language stuff. Sometimes it's, it's simple. It's just, this is it. And it's absolutely immediate.

We don't know what it is. We don't know how it is. We don't know how to describe. We just know, wow, there's, there's an undeniable presence. And, and that's it. And it's always that presence. Like it's, it's, it's just always that presence. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had someone arguing over the email. I think we, I didn't have conversation, but arguing for I am, it's not true for me because when I go to sleep, I don't know that I am. So that's the proof because you know, like when I sleep, I slept last night, I knew nothing. So objectively it isn't true. So now again, arguing for suffering, arguing for the reality of the mind, projected reality of time, arguing against the direct experience of here.

And now are you sleeping right now? No. Are you not here right now? No, but yesterday, well, but where is yesterday? Yesterday is a thought. So right now you are experiencing a thought of not being present, but are you not present? And in your life, do you experience that thought of not being present? So in the direct experience, whenever you look, you're always here. When you don't look, what do you bother? That's not the right, right, right, right, right, right. It's it comes back down again just to the reality of it. Yes. Like just to seeing what's there, um, on its own terms and, and, and recognizing that whatever you are, ultimately aware of it's truly ineffable yeah you know I'm looking at your shirt I can say that's a red shirt but what is the color red to someone who's who's never seen it you can't describe it it's just it's just a an isness there's something else yeah I'll tell you yeah I'm gonna move that basically the void itself is just a concept it's conceptual so you know it doesn't actually exist in the experience and which essentially I just comes up as every time there's a looking internally like there's never a void there's always something that's there and and so you know it's really just movement or stuffness or doingness or isness or existence you know all those things are exactly the same one thing and um yeah so basically you know there is no need to make existence out to be a thing is separate from non-existence because non-existence never shows up every time looking happens in here and the space is just a thing and it's just a thing and it's just a thing and it's not because you're not looking actually happening just that you know that another um that nub of a concept never pops up of of the experience of void you know it just doesn't the other thing pops up there is the and um yeah so that and that's all there is so is is is and um I have a gut run here um bad eyes um yeah so and and also I was reminded of which something I really sort of put into my journal which when I first came here was bit on an old tv screen in a museum in england once um they had this show called bill and ben the flowerpot men and there's this really funny episode where one of them they like they're basically just like flower pots with a string held together and they just walk along like animate you know sort of moved what's that you know stop gap and animation or whatever and um but one of them has like got a potato on a string that dog and go no potato so they have this existential debate these flowerpot men having an existential debate about whether potato is real or not you know has an independent you know identity so yeah that one just really puts to bed any any kind of yes realness about anything beyond this yeah and they love what you say actually yes it actually you can keep it we can have this one you actually don't even need the idea of existence versus non-existence because they cancel each other out they they both just whatever they did yeah yeah it's like the you know theorizing about yeah it's like ultimately when you see the reality of just this language can't really go near every word every description is missing the point because it's it's the duality projected on just this yeah theorizing is just something popping up you know yeah another part of that um popping up yeah the happiness existence isn't this popping up this it's all just one question that's it essentially yes yeah non-void it's just all just one item yeah yeah i don't realize actually the greater weight void is a concept that's so totally unnecessary and you know a little bit almost embarrassed of that thoughts never popped up totally unnecessary and yet again it's just what's happening the descriptions pop up and the joy of describing the joy of exploring it see what it usually and this is what we see in individual meetings and on the zoom groups we have bigger groups like last week we had what 24 people is joy pops up yeah when the attention is brought back to the source and when all the ideas of being limited of person or any sense of confinement is let go of and exploration is of this it's just another element of business it's just when uh wow the hexis pops up and i'm in for a moment you know yeah just yet another no no more special less special yeah yeah you know thing popping up basically a non-thing popping up yeah and it's and again there is no even any requirement because the joy springs up in here to even recommend other people to just go and enjoy no let other people joy pop in when they listen to music they go jogging or they sit in meditation life is self-organizing it does whatever it does you look at the cut and it walks wherever life moves it to walk people go and experience some some uh social experience of uh of life life is experiencing itself through people going and fighting starting the world dragging each other to court being right i don't think the notion of how that really exists is a little closer to less separation thoughts if you know what i mean so yeah yeah it's it's like if if most of the thoughts are popping on top of the other thoughts are that's all separate that's a separate thing then probably the thought wow that really exists might not show up yeah the kind of way that we understand it yeah and i wonder if anyone on zoom we have seven people with us here uh would like to maybe ask question to john or to the room or drop something or share something uh would you like to jump in on mute and contribute tony is suggesting the cut to me out of the car all right there's one thing i was going to say too in response to what was just said like it's with this use of of words and and concepts like ultimately it's all we're all full of like none of it matters in the end because it's what it is um independent of definition and it's already won this process is really fascinating though because it's ramana maharshi said it's like you have a thorn and the only thing you can really use to remove it is another thorn so we have these words that have given us this kind of separation sickness and we're attempting to use words to undo that um and it works only when you realize the arbitrary nature of it so it's like all right i am a thorn i'm going to use it when i want to get rid of it and that's when the mouth is up and i'm going to the roof and that's when the words get rid of them so it's only when you realize the arbitrary nature of it trying to use words right now, I know it's not about words, I know they're not real, but if I use them to point back to the experience and to help me see something, then they're effective.

If they lead to more words, you're just trying to use the sickness for a cure. It's not going to happen. Because like even this idea of void, for example, something and nothing, and since it's non-dual, it's actually both, you could say something like, there's suffering here, I'm out of it. Well, do you know you're suffering? So the knowing is free of suffering. It's free of everything. Yet in the end, there's only what is. Like that doesn't, what I said doesn't make any sense. It's like there's just, what's arising, there's a knowing isn't separate from it. It's just a thing, but it helps cue something. It helps cue a recognition.

It helps cue a recognition where we're off, and then you drop it. It's just worthless at that point. Or else you're just repeating it like a mantra and trying to force yourself to be something else. That's it. That's the enchantment of that beautiful show. If I dream myself to be the body-mind, to be a separate person, and I dream myself to be sick and needing a healing, then of course, all this is going to happen. If I have the validation and all the therapies and all the ecologists and all the gurus, they will help me exercise that whole dream, perpetuate the dream, move it through time, have the goal sets and achievement, it's not better or worse or different to any other element of the dream.

If I want to be a ship's captain, and I now want to go to school and learn the navigation and do other things to achieve the goal. This is the story to be projected on the screen. Yes, that's it. That's it. but this story is an entertainment for what is happening of its own but because it is such an incredible entertainment it isn't i'm not just a viewer of the story i life and everything i am the actor i am the dream i am every feeling every emotion all of it has the is made of me of that of that presence of that field so it appears real it feels real you know like a good movie that you watch in the cinema completely completely takes away any sense of separation and you are crying with the hero or you were in a suspense and it's just separation collapsed and the entertainment is like wow so this whole human adventure is like that but it's even more multi-dimensional because if i hit myself it hurts if i hit him it may hurt my fingers but not really not his so this is so immersive it's so incredibly more godly just like the virtual reality game like at some point i was with tanya and and navi another girlfriend on that little adventure of machu picchu and you walk around the mountains and you feel the movement and then suddenly you are transported high up you're flying and the weather changes like somebody brand new because they're worried they're going to fall off the platform that happens to happen to me yeah yeah yeah yeah so people do there yeah they die there absolutely people get sick you must have got laws yeah yes they could not she's talking about the the vr glass yeah um i put um here on twitter for it now yeah yeah yeah the name's gone yeah yeah so so it is this fully immersive experience is really no different if you see that all of it is happening the common denominator is that space like it's not space i like the negative space will you say because it doesn't it isn't you can't put the circumference you can't grasp it you can't estimate its size or shape nothing negative space that potentiality it all happens there whether you switch on the tv you put the vr goggles or you go and have a chocolate cake or a roller coaster ride it doesn't really matter it all happens when you wake up and you're not sure that you're like you know i woke up this morning you're not sure whether you've slept you know if you haven't looked at the clock and and then you think hang on there's a bit weird being in a bus accident that doesn't chill but you know you just and then like because you know the memory's there or the memory's not of what else might have happened and then the assumption is there that well that meant sleep happened but it's just you know for a moment it's absolutely confusing and nothing can be said any which way yeah so we don't have any comments from facebook we don't have any comments from zoomers i may bring up some questions i have some printouts of questions so i can bring up box cards of pointers oh question questions concept where you just come up with random questions and then people just give their random answers yeah any questions oh um you know we do have a question actually that came in 10 minutes ago from craig okay um i didn't see it yes um oh you're right i'm sorry sorry yeah we didn't miss that okay you want to read it you know yeah yeah um oh dean yeah go ahead no you go so yeah craig asked um is the witness separate to what is being witnessed or are they the same thing sorry i'm a bit confused when i answer that job yeah um is the witness separate to what is being witnessed no um they they are the same so if you have actually you you take this and i'll jump on because i want to take it in a different angle but i would imagine from this question okay yes the witness is separate to the question correct so yukata asked um how is the witness separate from the answer to the question you have question we also have some командist techniques in english but most often the question is given by likepson in english they would say well like saskia oh spanish thicker english like the ms a know all these things but there are some are managed by barbara or sh Tucker and her passion to cover the question but i think that we should stick with this basic question first Within the witnessing, there is a presence, witnessing presence.

The witness arises and the witnessed arise. You see that you can't actually separate the witness from what is witnessed. Because the moment nothing is witnessed, where is the witness? There is no witness, there is no witnessing. Like, you know, when you go to coma or did sleep at night, no witness arises, nothing to witness. There is no witnessing. Same with anything else. Same with seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, knowing, being. Everything is inseparable in the direct experience. And then the mind comes and divides it. This is me, this is not me. This is I, this is the world. I'm separate from the world. I come to the world.

Not the world and I appear simultaneously. Like what Tony was just saying, you wake up. And suddenly, ooh, there is a world and there is someone viewing the world. There is no separation. You can't have the world. Without someone looking at it. Or you can't have someone looking at it without anything to look at. It's simultaneous, completely inseparable. But in the language, in the way that interpreter here translates the experience. And this is absolutely valid within that dream. And it's very, very practical for navigational purposes. It interprets, this is I, this is not I. I am going to move to the kitchen. I'm not at one.

I'm not at one with the kitchen. I, the body, going to move out. Just like when you drive the car or you go in the airplane and you say, I'm going to Europe in the airplane. So you're not the airplane. You are sitting, you're going. Airplane is moving. Or you're parking your car. You say, I'm going to move forward. I'm going to reverse. You're the vehicle. For navigational purposes, you call yourself I. Everyone else does that too. But it is comprehensible. It is practical. But in the direct experience, the I cannot be separated from this. But also when the attention is not there, there's no recollection.

There's no popping up of the thought of going to the kitchen. Oh, I'm in the kitchen now, you know. So, yeah, there's going to the kitchen and there's a thought that a separate thing is going. Well, there's not a thought that a separate thing is going. Mm-hmm. It's just a bunch of stuff showing up. Showing, really. And there was like one thing you said there that I also wanted to like, yeah, drop off. It's not really happening, but it's not showing up. What that separate, that distinction's not showing up right now. It wasn't about I'm going. You know, even with the thought I'm going to the kitchen arises or not, there's just also something else arising.

No. No. No. It's not, nothing's got its own category at all. Mm-hmm. It's just like stuff arising, stuff arising. You know, there's movement to the kitchen. There's a thought that I'm a separate person doing that. Yeah. There's a thought that I have free will and actually, actually doing it like is, you know, intending it and making it happen. Mm-hmm. May or may not be arising. There's just a bunch of things that around. There's just a package of stuff going on, actually. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Whether they're actually connected and how they're connected never really shows. So, you know, science has thoughts about that, but that's just another process arising.

That's it. Yeah. And when Kat is moving to the kitchen. There is no decision-making process of free will. It just finds itself moving to the kitchen. No notion that there is such a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They don't have symbolic language, so they don't create a mental image of kitchen. No. They don't create the narrative that I am choosing. Yeah. They don't create the narrative that I am choosing to do that. They may get pissed off. Action happens. You know, that. Yeah. All emotions are not really available. We don't know how much identification is in that pissed off of this. There's probably some, some bit of identification going on.

What kind? What is that exactly? What does that even mean? It's. But before, my head was too small and it was just going back and forth trying to figure out how to get onto my lap or not. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe some frustration arose. Who knows what numbers of notions actually show or not. You know, obviously a whole lot of people have had a lot of experience with this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's do that, shall we? But we're probably going to manage to find some more choice here. But the thing is, for the practical reasons, again for the reasons of, of navigating.

The cat knows its size. It has whiskers, so it knows the size of the vehicle. Just the same way. You know, the size of your bicycle or your car. When you're driving, it doesn't mean that you have a mental image. I am the car. So as far as we know, cat does not have an idea of, there is a little cut and I am this. No, it's just a movement. All right. movements, one with life. For navigational purposes, the size is known, the needs are known, the emotions are arising, they facilitate survival. When the cat is irritable, it responds by moving away. When the cat is seductive to a positive, some enticing smell, it moves the words.

And that does not mean that there is an identity arising, identity of something or the other. We don't know, like, there might be a little bit of something of that sort. Apparently the machine doesn't have symbolic language to create mental projection. Yeah. So, but we can agree, you know, because it's a collective dream, we can agree that yes, cats have the projector there, they have parts, they have language, they have past and future, they can identify. And as far as we know, we can't see the whole picture. So we can't see all the grudges or leaving the past. But we could. There may be some naps we don't know.

We could agree on anything. We want to dream the dream. Then we don't have an example as nature. Then it's just, yeah, the example is invalid then if we agree on that story. That's just a whole fun existence that's arising. But the story of cats being free from psychological suffering because of not having a mental projection of me, me, me, that is based in the symbolic language. Yeah. And that projects the time. It kind of makes it more fun and more helpful and more accurate with the observation of the creature not suffering. Just moving away from pain and moving towards the pleasure and surviving just like everything else in nature.

And having anxiety radar like. Absolutely. Which is the way they avoid all corners. Like I guess we avoid corners, but that's not total freedom. So there's probably, we have anxiety auras probably. Yeah. And then, you know, again, just another happening. Survival. Another happening, you know, survival is not even a thing. To me, like Dauphin mentioned survival, I suppose it's got some point of value, but to me it's just like another, you know, very blatant concept. And so. It's all, yeah, it's like one word. Every word. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. So just. Survival, we could call it a lot of things. You know, you can have a lot of way, the analogies you use with the computer and the software and hardware and all of that.

Yeah. But it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's a kind of thing. So you, you could see the love of being, which kind of makes the body want food when it's hungry, makes the body want to be healthy when it's sick, makes the actions towards the wellbeing and towards pleasure. Yeah. away from pain that's the that's the natural state yeah it is a natural it might not be moving towards it might just be an ultimate freedom that and yeah but it appears as moving towards it appears as the monkey going for the fig tree and having the ripe fruit then again you and i have got those you've got the light towards and i've got the away froms and our natural we we all have hang ups yeah we all have all of it yeah yeah but every machine has all of it you may have attention predominantly on what i don't want yeah and you have attention predominantly on what you want uh i i do actually have pretty pretty well pretty well your pie i don't like all that yeah but i wonder why i don't have more of that you know yeah but it all comes back to the initial traumas or initial knots in the universe that that are not pure vacuum you know you know and not just freedom that's just what what knots each the different knots that are floating around the universe knotted energies uh yeah i like bob's term um what was that congealed energy i don't know where he did he yeah do you think he thought that one up or do you think that came from somewhere else i have no idea it's a nice one congealed energy yeah but it's like it swells in the river you know as opposed to the free flow in the middle it's it's all that sort of thing yeah yeah and then the whole universe is this world scene or either they all kind of spontaneous unfolding of different movement and the weather changing and the seasons changing and the body's changing and the thoughts are changing oh yeah some of these knots like joy arises at this whole just kind of discussion and around other knots they're like what are you putting us in a box for just shut up we don't want to hear this it's just all different parts of polio yeah yeah and and the thing that that non-dual uh investigation offers is to is to question the narrative overlay over psychological suffering because you say you mentioned anxiety anxiety arises anxiety arises it's just a label but we could say it arises in the in the animals well they is anxiety again it depends on the on the definition the movement away it arises in the in the animals as well but there is no content saying oh i don't want to move away oh it means that i print all the best things wrong with or how to indicate how to i fix it that stuff doesn't happen it's just spontaneous movement the same way the winter just ended and it didn't fight with the spring oh no i want to be here a little bit longer don't come no it's just spontaneous i mean it might be it's tiny i'm just wondering but not that it's actually important in any way as nothing is there might just be a tiny knob of um you know this this this hair may it's like me you know getting annoyed by that noise you know who knows killing like a knob a small enough of a notion never were not worded obviously in like other animals like gorillas like it is worded that can be worded if they're trained up but yeah yeah yeah just more description of the universe absolutely so john would you like to take it under direction whether you were thinking of taking it whilst we yeah well i mean a couple things um one i was just going back to the um the early um sutra i had mentioned um of the buddha where someone had come to him appealing for his teaching and the buddha was taking all the time i'm out with his bowl and he said you know i'll teach you when i'm finished with lunch he said no no the the guy had come a distance he said i could i could die before then anything could happen you oftentimes find this urgency they have this is the passion you need for for the Dharma, but the only instruction he gave the man was and I was referencing this before like And this is back to Craig's question The witness and the witness he said, you know just recognize in this in seeing There's only the scene in hearing there is only the herd, you know, you're breaking down the duality there So he goes through five senses and he says in cognizing only the cognize right or in thinking only the thought and You in that there is no mention of a self you just have essentially sensory information and the arising of thought and With that You You've kind of broken down the witness witnessed paradigm without even mentioning it It's just this arising just this happening The other thing I was going to say and this is kind of this is what we may have been discussing Which I don't know if it prompted the question or caused confusion Which is this nature of the screen in the movie and that can create another sense of?

witness witnessed or reality But it's again. It's getting caught up in the description of it but I find that can be all a hearing all that before I understood what It was experiential was just very confusing to me and I'm still not terribly good at describing it so that was the other direction I was thinking of but Yeah, I'm not sure I have much more even say about it really That's actually really good. I like Tony often describes it that she says there is no existence. There's no being there's nothing It's just stuff popping up and that's really what you say in the thinking just thought but we also have and this is again the confusion that arising from putting in a lot of information into descriptions and words we had a guy who used to come on Zooms Who used to read a lot of Ramana Maharshi and learn it and he really wanted to teach it without maybe a very deep Reflection on on what it means and he would say no I tell you how it is because I know how it is There is only a self.

There's only an experience there. There's only a seer There's nothing that is seen. There is nothing that's experience It's only experience sir, and I say look there are different languages of pointers and Sometimes it is actually quite cute and funny and a good sort of a strategy that life takes to Completely confuse the mind So the mind says ah shit. I'll surrender I'll give up. It's like okay I can't I can't you know, it's only the self or it's only what arising is it or is just they are rising is experience What the heck I can't get it No, you can't But I did actually have to pull him out.

I say look I Don't think this is really being helpful We are trying to speak sailor Bob's language here because people who are in this group have benefited from this particular language so there is a natural resonation with this particular style and Carrying it that wave of resonation. It just rings true the happening now the idea of me and the idea of a content Comes later, maybe the idea of me doesn't come and I can totally relate the idea of me doesn't really come anymore But even if it does it is equally the content of arising as the idea of a mic It's just the content of arising So the contents arising that's it in the experiencing in the arising.

That's it So and and this one is it really it doesn't make Other pointers invalid it doesn't make other style of pointing to it invalid It is just the play of life Going and and and pushing those strings and looking for the resonation and if it's if it rings true If it kind of touches the heart, oh, yes of course Wow. Yes, that's it. That's what brings that that beautiful beautiful cradle of clear reflection of light shining in the eyes like oh And the natural relaxation and then you like that cat just happy to be without any Arguing for the suffering arguing for the mind.

Yes today is fine. But tomorrow I'm gonna lose the job. I'm gonna get old I'm gonna get sick. I'm gonna get cancer and there we are in the cinema again watching feel of About what is not happening right here and right now betraying the unborn Buddha mind for that movie and creating anxiety moving that chemicals in the system and And experiencing suffering and this is the point in which again we string another chord we read another pointer and Yeah, right Oh, yeah, it's now also what's here now? Okay, this room is arising The thoughts are arising feelings are arising sensations are arising sounds are arising Wow Okay, mental images are arising.

Oh the sort of tomorrow is arising. Oh the sort of past or childhood trauma Wow Exploration is arising Exploration absolutely. Yeah, which doesn't make it less neutral, you know, totally totally it's not better or worse whatever is arising is just the content arising Mm-hmm Hmm one of the things is you know, oh But there's a sense of me. There's a sense of a body You know like it must all be have all these arisings must be happening to this sense of a body But there's no truth like it look, you know, the sense of a body isn't arising as well as everything as a thought as as what he's seen as the actual activity of seeing Yeah, so that they're all the risings And yeah, I think I think that body one is something that you know comes up as well.

Oh, it's it's happening here Where's the hero? I can't tell you exactly where it's just it's just I just feel something that it's it's it's in this You know, this or l's the body it's in there's actually if there's no big time if there's nice sensation of that big toe It doesn't exist until there's a sensation of it or whatever yeah i don't really get that one but it's made me realize i get the a sense of a viewpoint in a dream so like in the dream like there was a bus crash but suddenly it was a little mini bus and i was outside while it crashed and then suddenly like i'm going and looking for my baby brother but i'm using a modern cell phone and like um you know then suddenly i'm in the bus looking so it was weird there was a sense of a viewpoint at all times yes absolutely the memories are shared yeah so that's a bit of a weird one yeah yeah yeah but viewpoint is all right your body yeah yeah yeah and also sense of contraction sense of uneasiness sense of yes but i'm still unhappy existential angst the sense of i'm separate i don't like to be here this is something wrong it must be different i don't feel cosmic union and i want to feel one with god and one with everything and this is not it what is it that is emotionally charged mental projection again arising i'm not good enough i feel i'm not good enough i know i'm not good enough i believe it into the reality i believe it so fiercely that it appears real but what is it again another piece of arising no different to the arising of that of that cut here carrot yeah exactly and that's why there's no ever any need to argue against that you know okay hey i see i hear that you're not enough like um where do you who's aware of that how's that arising like just looking at the reality of what's happening and then you don't need to argue with it and and even with the sense of a body when you break it down into those five senses you take away the concept of body it isn't so clearly defined any longer there's a body that's not the same as it is a patch of sensations um which also don't have a boundary there's no inside or outside really felt when you actually feel into that sense well awareness will go right beyond the skin you know your site doesn't it's not contained by sight there's not an edge in sight it's just color merging with color you know these these things yeah that's it yeah it's just arising and then idea of a body you know see the more you know about the body the more complex the idea what do you know about fascia in your system until you learn about it and you create mental image what do you know about your spleen or you know the adrenal glands or or something like that those are all things that are conceptualized and believed into existence the brain what does the cat know about his liver or lungs and what the the body does not care what does it care how my liver is not good enough or maybe my mental projection of myself is not good enough how many stories do we make up about ailments we have like we have some symptoms we make up these long contracted stories about what is actually going wrong and then we go when it was way easier it could have been fixed in two days it's just a lovely you know stuff that shows up and and also to which extent and that can be enhanced by some special trainings you know see our powers and all that stuff but incredible um effect that the placebo has you know feeling unhealthy and experiencing yourself unhealthy believing yourself into an ill health hypochondriacs and the other way around also and everything in between too because you can't choose to believe what doesn't feel right in that particular setting i can't choose to make myself uh into a conspiracy theory because it just doesn't really the whole the whole machine is just not resonating with it so even the conspiracy theorists are not guilty of being conspiracy theorists because this is just how life plays this particular flute and it's just what's arising the greatest conspiracy of the lot is me myself and i okay you Tony, thank you, John.

Thank you for a beautiful spiel and for a really, really enjoyable interaction. And thank you for the questions and lots of love, everyone. We're going to wrap it up and see you next time. See you, John. See you. Thank you. Thank you.