This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on Facebook.
There we go. And press the recording. And we're ready. Anyone would like to start us off today? It was a set of reminders, put us on the same page. Oh, hi, George. Long time no see. Good to have you here. And yeah, we have Kimo. How about you, Kimo? Would you dare to give us a few pointers together later? I know it's pretty early there in the morning. Yeah, it's super early. I don't know if people will be able to hear me because I'm outside and it's a little windy. I don't have earphones, so maybe someone else might start. All right. I hear you pretty well, but it's your call.
Thanks. Anyone? Anyone? I see a new name. Welcome, Richard. And we've seen Mano before, but Mano. And if there is anyone else who we didn't see, who is with us first. Welcome. This is the non-duality exploration. It's not a teaching because there is really nothing to learn. Oopsie. Sorry. It's an exploration because the basic predicament or the basic fact or the basic truth is that you are, you exist. There is an existence. Defining that existence. It's a task for the mind and we are not preoccupied with definitions, identities, theories, philosophies, any of those conceptual overlays. We look into the direct experience of pure existence, pure being, awareness of existence.
And in that, we are all equal. We are all one. Everyone knows equally well that they are. Everyone knows equally well that they are. People may have different concepts of what they are or where they are. Am I still a seeker or am I enlightened? There's no one to be a seeker or enlightened if we look close enough. We can see that the urge to seek or the desires or any other urges or aversions arise in that I am. Or the delusion of grandeur. I'm better than you. I'm more than you. I'm more enlightened than you. Those ideas also arise in the awareness of existence.
So basically, we all aware that we are in that we are equal. So I usually invite anyone who feels like exploring the natural state to give us the first 20 minutes, half an hour or whatever it takes of introduction. Put us all on the same page and then we explore further. But if there's a question, I'm happy to answer it. But if there are no takers, I can just basically string up or bring up few aspects of that awareness of existence. First, that is already clear. It's already clear. There's no one who is confused or who is not certain, who is not sure. It's no one that would say, well, I kind of believe that I exist, but I think I could potentially question it.
No, it's a certainty. Even to actually doubt your own existence, you have to be first to doubt it. And that is it. That is it. The Mahavakya or the great mantra says that I am. Everyone knows that I am. I know that I am. But now who is that one who knows? That's another story. This is where we are venturing into the realm of the dream. Of the dream. Of the dream. Of the dream machine of the mind producing identities. When the consciousness emerges and the seeing starts being available, when the baby is born out from the womb, when there is only dark, opens the eyes, the light starts playing out, the sounds here slightly different, that consciousness starts processing information.
Initially, there is no sense of identity. It's just that field of knowing. And within that field of knowing, there is no sense of identity. There are sensations and perceptions arising. And it isn't different right now. It isn't any different right now. What actually changed is that this processing of information got refined, got finely tuned into the need of survival of this particular vehicle through which the consciousness knows itself. So when that baby is born out of the womb, it's not just a matter of knowing. It's about the experience. The experience of being open field of knowing. Learning the voices, recognizing, putting them to the faces, having that facial recognition software installed, then having the language model installed, learning words, putting labels on things, eventually passing the mirror test.
So putting a label on that vehicle as well on that body. So now I'm a person. I am a little girl or I'm a little Johnny. Good little boy. Or bad or I'm a woman or whatever I am. This is a function of a language and it is a beautiful function. It's absolutely amazing. If we look around and we look at the other vehicles for the consciousness that allow the consciousness to experience itself in the depth of the ocean as a whales and fish, they don't have symbolic language. They cannot gather in in big enough schools and. And divide the tasks to rig the civilizations or design medicine, biology or science.
And for that, the language model is required. The symbolic language. A conversing about that, which is not happening right now. That which has happened in the past and learning from the past, that which could potentially happen, like building a palace in the future. Not now. Symbolic language. We can talk about that. Which is not right now. Animals can communicate. They have sounds. But all relevant to the survival in the immediacy. So there's nothing wrong with the language model, but it backfires. The as soon as that labeling and using the symbolic, the symbol applied to the body mind, calling it I and seeing every other body calling itself.
I. The basic identification. I am the body starts forming. And if I am the body, well, obviously I'm mortal. I'm fragile. I'm going to die. I'm going to get sick. I'm going to get old. But body doesn't quite explain the mystery of of of the world, the universe and the everything. So we add to that concept. I'm the body. Also the feelings. The intellect. The roles that we play. And the identity that cage of concepts builds thicker and thicker as that child grows up. Initially is just, yeah, I'm a good little boy. My daddy is stronger than your my mommy is prettier than yours. And and that's how the my the kingdom of me, myself and I is being built.
But that's not it. That's just the beginning. Later on, the collection of memories. Collection of past experiences. My traumas. My tastes. My preferences. All relevant. Absolutely wonderful to know your musical tastes or what type of ice cream or pizza or entertainment or or spouse. Beautiful, beautiful capacity to actually discern between those intricacies. But again, if that is taken to be the identity. And I'm not saying that I'm not. I'm not saying that I'm not. I'm not saying that I'm not. An identity I am vegan. Now I hate everyone who eats meat or I'm a woman and I hate every man in the world. That causes psychological suffering.
That causes a sense of separation and limitation. Now I'm not any more seemingly so. That open space of consciousness in which the processing of the signals, sounds and and lights and later on language is happening. Now I'm limited, I'm separate, I'm a person. I'm here, I'm the seer, and the world outside of me is separate from me. It is what I'm seeing. I am here, and this is out there. And within the boundary of the skin, the limit of the skin, is the separation. Now, is that true? That's what the vehicle for consciousness has evolved for the practical reason to assume and to pursue in the communication.
It makes sense, even when you drive your car, to say, I'm moving faster, or I've got to stop. But let's face it, you're sitting in a car. You can't stop any more than you already stopped. The car is moving. But you say, oh yeah, I've got to reverse. I've got to park. Well, you're obviously not the car. But for the purpose of communication and the purpose of navigation, it's very, very appropriate to communicate in this way. In the same way, you're not this body. You are the consciousness in which the body is appearing and growing and changing as much as everything else that is appearing in the consciousness.
And that's the direct experience. If not for the wonderful capacity of language holding onto the memories, bringing back the past as a proof for separation, direct experience is this. I wake up in the morning from the dream in which I was a different place, in different location, and now I'm in this place and in this location, and I'm playing this role, and I hear myself speak those words. This is the experience, direct experience right now. There is a seeing happening. Hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, speaking, waving the arms. That is what is happening within the field of knowing, within the consciousness. Something else is also happening.
The story might be held in the mind. No, direct experience is wrong. The story is more appropriate representation of what's going on. And the story says, I'm a person. I am the body or I am a driver of the body. Somewhere there, a mini me, a controller inside who is thinking thoughts, who is making choices, decisions, having free will and all that. This is the story that the mind tells itself to preserve the illusion of control and to enable the navigation, to enable creating a huge, large groups of alike, like-minded people. If I am an artist, well, there is, you know, 20 of us. There is a thousand of us in the suburb.
There is a thousand of us in the city. I am part of, I'm something bigger. Now, my identity grows and feels better. But I can have a thousand others if I'm a mother or I'm a daughter or I'm a sister. All those labels, all those identities enable this vehicle, this presence to experience and express itself in completely different settings. From the lifestyle. From the life's perspective. From that, from the perspective of that God, one could say, or love or the field of infinite potentiality. That opens the door for the multiverse of dreaming. I can dream to be a woman and dance like a woman. I can dream to be a daughter and have the relationship.
Dreaming, dreaming, dreaming. Who is the dreamer? When I say I experienced. Myself as the body or I experienced myself as a person or non-dualist or whatever. Who is that? I. This is where, where the rubber meets the road. The direct experience doesn't require any. I. Direct experiences. This is arising in consciousness. This moment, this world, this experience, this space and this content. This. Thoughts, feelings, emotions, urges, desires. Seeking perhaps is arising in a consciousness right now. The past is also rising. Yes, I had a trauma. Yes, I was beaten or raped or this or that happened to me. And I remember it really happened. I can't deny it.
It happened. This story also arises in consciousness and this story is emotionally charged. So it creates the echo. And it creates the. Wild expression defensiveness. So this is the content of consciousness. Where is the space for the eye for the me and what role would that me play? Oh, yes, but there is a sense of there is a sense of contraction here arising. Oh, yeah. Okay. So sense of contraction here arising. What does it have to do with the idea of some little dwarf or little miniature person? Yeah. Yeah. That is in charge controller. So sense arising. Is it always there? No. Sometimes it's there.
Sometimes it's not there. But the sense of insecurity of a sense of I'm not enough. This feels so personal. Yeah. All right. So the sense of insecurity and feeling very personal is arising in a consciousness. That's what's happening. Is it always there? Is it always the same? I'm always here. Sense. Of self hatred. Sometimes there, sometimes not there. But I'm always here to see it coming and going. So could I be that sense? Could I be that emotional self, that vulnerability, that fear of rejection of fear of abandonment or traumatized broken child? If I can, if I'm here, even when that feeling isn't present. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what am I? I'm here. But what am I, if I'm present to the arising urge of finding freedom or liberation or enlightenment, I'm present to finding an urge to get richer, wealthier, to make name and fame and family and any desire arising in consciousness. I'm here. I'm present to see that desire arising. Okay. But what am I? Can I actually see what I am? Is it even possible for me, me to verify what I am? How would I go about it? Okay. I'm looking inside. We know the body has been sliced into the thinnest pieces and nothing has been found.
So I'm looking inside. I'm finding a little sense of uneasiness by looking because there is nothing to be found. So that's the sense of uneasiness. The sense of uneasiness is arising in consciousness. But can I actually find the consciousness in which those things are arising? Can the consciousness turn on itself and find itself? How is even the looking inquiring of finding to be performed and by who? Let's assume that there is a spaciousness and that cognizing emptiness here. And it somehow could be known by something else. By what? By other consciousness. Now we have the consciousness that is to be known by some other consciousness separation.
We out of the scope of investigation again. Both those consciousnesses are arising here as concepts, as ideas. So how do I ever find out? What is that here? What am I or who am I? Can I actually temporarily move myself out of myself to even see what I am? Even if that was possible, which of course sounds ridiculous, if I was to vacate myself, to cognize myself, what I would be cognizing wouldn't be me anymore. It would be an object. And that which is cognizing again remains a mystery. And this is really, I mean, there is no teaching in non-duality. It's just a plain recognition of obviousness of existence already shining in its full glow.
But there is one teaching that is to be logically explained to the mind, to that cognitive function or that language processor that is narrating whatever is happening and is narrating the navigating of the whole. Of the whole machine. And that is, it cannot be what you are. The pure consciousness, the pure awareness of existence cannot be known. Objectified defined by the mind. Frankly, there is no answer in the mind. It can is, it is unknowable, ineffable. It cannot be grasped. It cannot be grasped. It cannot be grasped. It cannot be grasped. grasped so ultimately you can't know what you are you can't possibly know what you are yes but people there say i am nisargadatta said i am a totality or i am nothing or i am everything how does he know well he doesn't he was telling it to people who were holding a fixed position i'm the body so he would tell them you're not the body if they would say oh i'm not the body body is excluded i'm everything else except for the body he would punch them in the head did you feel it nothing is excluded and what you are cannot be known that's that's given cognizing emptiness they call it space like awareness pure cognitive functioning witnessing presence those are just labels you're not the label but you are you are here in that being here there is a capacity for cognizing through seeing hearing tasting touching smelling and thinking so that machine that body mind machine narrows that full infinite unknowability translates it like you know reflecting like you know like light into a colors into the cognitive function of seeing hearing tasting touching smelling other animals have other cognitive functions dolphins or bats they have sonars other can see in the dark they are different senses in in different creatures human senses can be developed people may learn to read auras or whatever it is senses can be developed yet the cognitive capacity that is expressing through the senses is beyond the senses is prior to the senses and is completely unknowable you can never ever figure out what you are but you can never ever deny that you are if at any point mind will rest its case and get tired of seeking and realize it can't be grasped and just relax surrender in that surrender of the grasping trying working it out in that surrender the joke unfolds there is nothing missing there is nothing wrong this moment as it shows up to consciousness is only evaluated by thought it's only the thought that comes and says i'm not good enough i need to try harder find something different something better not this not now something else somewhere else in the future some other time other place that's impossible this is already here this is already now this is it fantasy about some other time when i get that or when i understand that and i will never be angry and i will never be angry and i will never be angry about something and then i don't have this idea that i will never get angry again or i will never be sad again or i will never feel separate or lonely again that fantasy is also happening now but when that fantasy become true there is no when there is only now there is no other time that can be experienced all the other time is imagined the fully blown radiant miracle of existing right now the capacity of experiencing the existence through all the senses including the imagination including the memory and the projections of future and you see that incredible juicy colorful kaleidoscope of experiencing going on and you can't just say wow well then look again and look again perhaps mind is translating and taking out all the processing power and judging and taking so much of that life essence into the judgment that the judgment is believed and it becomes suffering when i believe i'm not good enough i feel i'm not good enough i want to die i want to kill myself so believing believing believing believing the mind story on one hand you know you follow your dreams you believe you're gonna you know the brother's right will believe that people can fly to build the airplane yes wonderful but at the same time it backfires when you look from the perspective of life itself not from the perspective of some imagined little entity that runs the show but from life itself we can call it god or love or we can call it god or love or intelligence or essence of existence we can call it god or love or intelligence or essence of existence that essence of existence is completely blind and dumb it can't feel it can't see it it is a potentiality it doesn't even exist in any material form it's just a potentiality it's just like electricity is potentially there in the cord when before you even switch the the switch the lamp on but is it really only if there is no flow there is no energy potentially but not actually so now that energy only is there is no flow there is no energy potentially but not actually so now that energy can't be separated it is everything is total it's complete how can it ever even experience it's own without energy even if it's total it's complete how can it even separate itself from itself it doesn't its own magnificence how can it separate itself from itself to see itself as a reflection it can't it's impossible so it dreams okay and then we start looking color isn't that enough or what is that suing acting-ashi a fundamental thing if it's not just your future it's your audacity that's everything because it is why you're dalam and the whole like you know shiva as potentiality and shakti the dance of a dream the flickering dream just like when you go to sleep at night and then suddenly the mountains and the valleys and the supermarkets and peoples and strangers if people who pay attention to the dreams they can actually see the worlds are the infinite creativity of that life essence appearing in the dream the different planets different species incredibly juicy writers and painters they know all about it but anyone can access have the access to that you know they call god the creator that creative power and all that dream matter and the dream body fly flying or running away from monsters where is it what is it made of you claim climb the building or the mountain or you go in the forest how old are those trees did they grow for hundreds of years or the weather in the sky a lucid dream you can change the weather like this so you can fly this is really a giveaway the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way The daydreaming, the daydreaming.
You think about, you know, like that wish-fulfilling tree little metaphor of the desert and the beautiful oasis with a tiny little lake and a crystal water and a beautiful drink with umbrella and the maidens with the fans waving and singing songs. Daydreaming. And those images appear and the body doesn't even know the difference. It might be filled with serotonin or dopamine just on the thought of that. Needless to say, how vivid the erotic fantasies can be. The daydream of a lover. Wow. So where are they made of? How is that dream machine even constructing that incredibly juicy reality, reality? And how? How is this one different?
Well, it feels solid. You know, if I break my leg, it is going to hurt for months. And if I stub my toe, it's going to bleed. And everything is solid. How about in the dream? When you're dreaming? I remember having a delicious taste in the dream. Needless to say, the intense physical experiences of pleasure or pain in the dream. The depth of reality is in that. It is so. It is so. It is too much. You know, the dream has to be a little stronger. The dream has to be there to help you. So there really is no difference. The difference is that the illusion is so persistent is so incredibly persistent that you may make yourself believe that this is reality.
You really not good enough. You really have to kill yourself. Oh, my God. Don't do it. Don't go there. People believe the earth was flat that was reality for them People believe you are a murderer if you kill a mosquito. That's real for them or if you touch the Skin and then cripple all sorts of muggles and bacterias and viruses on your skin. That's cruel pure cruelty for nothing Believing that the magic of fueling the concept the mental construct with that life essence the energy of belief and Constructing a hell for oneself to start with Constructing a cage of concepts. I am a person. I'm limited.
I'm mortal. I'm gonna die Nobody loves me. I'm not good enough that cage of concepts the ideas that were picked up with the language along the way and believed into existence believed into reality and Feeling so convincing like that dream at night That solid or even more so what's real what's true? What do you know for certain? What is not a belief? You know you go to one cult or one religion. They tell you there is one God Allah is thy name They will also told you there's nothing others. It's only that nothing Others so there is omnipresence every single piece of presence is included in the omnipresence You go to another cult and they tell you that Well, I don't know that much about cults really but there's a lot of things that you are You need to subscribe to you know, I I heard quite a bit about different conspiracy theories You know the ideas that they are they out there always they always separated?
They out there maybe on another planet so solar system So maybe in the government or maybe underground and they want to get us the separation and preying on that survival instinct that natural loving-to-be love of being Seeing again seeing how the mind functions and how the mind is by its nature negative thinker and utterly paranoid Because survival requires that If I'm not a negative thinker and and I'm not paranoid I may overlook the enemy and get eaten or killed But now in our time and age Habitually mind has been given so much credibility and never been questioned That paranoia becomes the reality that fear that fear based survival becomes a religion and Everybody not everybody but people who are not moved by life to question it live in that higher or lower persistent level of stress Because they believe I am this and my survival is threatened and If the mind is kicking, you know, you watch too much of a movie science fiction movies.
Oh, there's so many potential threats I Used to hang out with the guy that if we really really wanted to have a good laugh We would google ten most probable cases of extinction of the humanity What are you gonna do about it? That's just the paranoid mind Are you gonna work yourself out and panic about it? This is not now it is not happening now and Everybody's gonna expire The body is just a vehicle the car is gonna go and run get scrapped The costume is gonna drop away if you realize You are not your mouthpiece You are not that which speaks But you are the space in which this body and the rest of the world arises simultaneously Just like in your dream at night just like in your daydream You are the common denominator You are always here.
You are always present within that presence There is the content arising There is the drama arising or there is just the plain boring seeing hearing tasting touching smelling Not really that boring is quite blissful if you really if you really Release that trapped energy in the in the theater of the dramas It's actually quite delightful to just be I have couple of cuts They can lie down on the sofa all day when I touch them. They pair. There's no sense of dissatisfaction in just being Quite on the contrary just the plain being staying like the little children's like Bible says in a state of openness and curiosity or ktongor What is going to arise now?
Mmm, maybe the idea may be the urge. Maybe the desire or aversion maybe the desire will be charged and the action will happen and Something gets created. Maybe not Who cares? Looking what is that sense of contraction? What is that sense of things being important? serious personal But look, you know I'm gonna get evicted my children are gonna lose the I'm this is serious yeah granted within the dream survival matters are serious bodies do get sick bodies do get evicted they do land under the bridge or they get in they go to jail that happens but what does it ultimately have to do with the experience thing itself of course within the dream the character will always always and every character including cats and dogs will have preference for pleasure and for safety so yes of course I prefer to have roof over my head and know where the next meal is coming from and not wake up under the bridge there is a preference it is included in the whole processor the whole machine naturally drawn towards support pleasure safety and moving away from that which hurts don't have to think about it don't have to make philosophy about it it's a natural natural already pre-programmed faculty in this so now with that what's the next scene gonna be okay there is a threat i was perhaps i don't know sued by someone i it happened to bob and i few years ago now what what's gonna happen about that how is the body gonna respond to that let me see then he's got the cancer diagnosis how is the body gonna respond to that hmm let me see having that open curious attitude of what life is serving and how life is responding to that because all of it the stimuli and the response are equally arising in that consciousness that i am always here staying in that state of openness and curiosity without assuming that i could possibly know what i am oh i'm a woman i'm 50 i'm from poland i'm in australia that's not those descriptions are not answering coming nowhere near the mystery of life and and consciousness and universe and everything the best answer we used to laugh is the 42 answer from the hitchhiker's guide of the galaxy it tells you absolutely nothing it leaves the mystery and mystery the moment the answer was given wait a minute what was the question the life and the universe and the everything it's a mystery by the funny turn of events the stop on which you leave the public transport to get to bob's home is 42.
there's one more trump that gets you here you gotta go to the last stop either way it's always here kimo you on thanks i'm back in uh let me see if i can hit lower hand oh good good good oh thank you for that introduction um i've got an interesting one today which is um kind of why i came so um it's going to be something a little bit different than what bob says and gilbert and everybody but let me start by saying something controversial you're already enlightened and and i know when bob was asked if he's enlightened he would laugh you know because the assumption is that i'm not enlightened and you must be you know i've heard your pointers you get this you're enlightened i want to be but there's really no character that can be enlightened in the sense that we we talk about it so i'm going to talk about definitions today so you can see through this stuff so the traditional idea of i'm enlightened me would mean i'm chemo and and i received something i received some kind of insight something changed of the reality i'm enlightened but when i say you you are enlightened or you're already enlightened but when i say you you are enlightened or you're already enlightened i'm talking i think it was roomy i'm not sure but i loved a beautiful pointer of the sun shines equally on on the thief and the righteous man and and that's that's exactly what i'm talking about what you and i mean you as us take yourself to be whether it's the body and the mind or both are already lit up in this presence so that's what i mean by you are already enlightened you are already that light that's enlightening the body and the mind and that's a revelation in itself so we we talk about that's some two words also that i want to talk about revelation and insight when we talk about a revelation we're talking about oh it's some shocking thing that i didn't know before and it helped me get deeper you know this was a revelation i didn't know this before it changed my life or like an insight oh this is something valuable that i hitherto didn't see before but when you look at a revelation it doesn't have to be something positive or something spiritual growth oriented a revelation simply means being revealed so anything can be revealed even if it's a negative experience the the idea of me taking myself to be chemo or a separate entity is a revelation it's being revealed to what i am and that's the blind spot there we think that the chemo or whatever your name is is where this is centered and even the word insight seeing in you know there's a there's a sight or appearance is happening within this television program is an insight it's it's it's a a an appearance within this boundless presence you know that that's kind of laughable because an insight's supposed to be something grand or good it can't just be tv or it can't just be a knock on the door but it can be and it is so another thing we say in the meetings to be compassionate is you have to do the investigation you need to see that you're not you can't see that you're not the body and not the mind and and you know the idea of you have to do the investigation when someone hears you have to do the investigation the first thought is i'm chemo and i've i've read or attended sailor bob's thing and and i i've i've had insights and and you know it's it's a hard when when you're you're having a moment make an investigation and you have to look at your brain and say oh my god that just troubles me and then you really you know it just Bitte- seemed like you had that howd I saying I don't know if I can go back but I think so much about it which is when you think that.» and little cracks.
So if I do the investigation, I'm going to be enlightened, or I'm going to see that I'm presence. You can't do that. And I also see the kind of problem with that is, okay, well, let me go with the nihilist type thing. There's no purpose and there's nothing I need to do. So I'm just going to sit here and wait for the seeking to end. But while you're doing that, while you're waiting for something to be revealed, make sure you see what's already being revealed right now, which includes the idea of, I'm just sitting here. I am this person who's waiting. This whole construct of the person is being revealed.
What's it being revealed in? What's it being revealed to? And the struggle is evident too. I've looked at this, and I want this to kind of become my trademark, this whole struggle of I see that I'm the Atman, but I don't see that I'm Buddha. Just like the thing about that you're already enlightened, I would stress that you're already the Buddha. And not only are you already enlightened, but you're already enlightened. And I would stress that you're already the Buddha. And not only are you already are you the Buddha, but you already know that you're the Buddha, and you're straining to try to be the Atman.
And in a lot of these circles, we say that, you know, even in Bob's, that the person doesn't exist, or it's better to say it's a complete illusion, or it's an appearance. And the same thing with Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy. I mean, say, Cat, you know, Cat, we talk about Cat, and Cat is someone we can go to, right? And we know what her pointers are like, and we know we can go to Dep Denny and knock on her door, there's Cat. But that body is constantly changing. The thoughts are constantly changing. And yes, there's going to be someone who claims there's Cat, just like in, you could say it's like one degree off, right?
Because there are like, tons of people in Finland who claim to be Santa Claus. And also in America here, there are tons of people trying to be Santa Claus, but, you know, they might smell of gas from their meal, or whiskey, you know, they're making $20 an hour to be Santa Claus. So we say like, Santa Claus is fake. But... maybe so. Maybe there's not someone who you could actually see with the reindeers, and they go to every house. But the thing is, that idea is there. Just like the idea, I've never met Cat in person, but I have an idea there. So it's like she exists.
She exists in that idea, just like Santa Claus exists as an idea. We're all going to have a different story about Cat. We're all going to have a different story about Santa Claus. Santa Claus might mean someone who is not very well to do, but they take $1,000 and they have find 10 different people in the shelters or the thrift store to give $100 to, to make their Christmas better. Maybe that's Santa Claus. And there's such an argument about God. God doesn't exist because we have, it has to be this one description. The one description that we have is that we have to be Santa Claus.
The one description doesn't exist, just like there's not one description of Cat. So getting back to this Atman thing, you kind of have to catch your thought process. It's, to me, it amazes me how folks can see that awareness is boundless. But then we quickly go into, oh, I'm not seeing 10 trillion things. I'm only seeing 10,000 things. I must not be boundless if I don't know what's going on. I don't know what's going on. I don't know what's going on. I don't know what, what insects are doing and what someone in Nigeria is doing at work right now. That's a limitation. It's a limitation of objects appearing, but you cannot find a limitation to awareness.
And when I talk to people about that, you know, you do a closed eye experiment. Closed eyes really helps because when you hear a sound or when you have a feeling, you think about what that's appearing. You know, you're not seeing it. You're not seeing it. You're not seeing it. You're not seeing it. You're not seeing it. You're not seeing it. And without the boundaries of the body being known, without the idea of the fake mind putting concepts of limitations, you see that the awareness that you're enjoying right now is boundless, completely boundless. And then, and then folks tell me sometimes, Oh, okay, but I still only see 10,000 things.
So I'm just a piece of, I see that I'm in finite, but I'm just a piece of that infiniteness. that doesn't make sense you saw that you're infinite but then you're saying you're a piece of infiniteness just because the appearance of just since the appearances are limited that says nothing about you but folks think it does i'm having this limited experience i'm in florida i'm in the united states so i must be limited no that's a revelation of a limited experience appearing in something boundless so i i ask people what what is a piece of infiniteness is it about it's the infinite you can't have a piece of infiniteness if you see that your infiniteness you're already in finite and that's the buddha and and within the buddha is the idea that i'm the atman it's 100 an appearance 100 oh but i feel contracted you i feel when people touch my body or injure my body it's happening to me okay so there's a changing body appearing changing thoughts experience even even the idea that it's personal that this is happening to me personal experiences a personal body time and space i'm in florida i'm eight feet from the front door that's not a definition of what i am that that's a description of appearance is that are happening in that boundlessness it's a revelation and just starting with that just starting with rumi's point or whoever did it that this this is already pure lighting up everything so when i say you're enlightened i mean everything is enlightened all there is is enlightenment it's it's a tidal wave you know what it you know what a tidal wave does when when um the water recedes and then the tidal wave comes in everything like that that's the first thing i thought of when when phuket happened that disaster like eight years ago or more the first thing i thought of is wow you know this is nasar gadda and sailor bob stuff right here this tidal wave came through and and what was phuket thailand it was still phuket thailand conceptually but it turned into water you know the idea before the the um tidal wave that it was phuket was was in imagination but but we say that phuket is real and santa claus is fake they're both concepts that point to something and and there's a real pleasure in that because you can enjoy santa claus you can enjoy the tooth fairy you can enjoy phuket you can enjoy the idea of ishwara or god but you have to see that that tidal wave is present right now everything has been engulfed and totally washed out by awareness it's what is right now and just starting with the thing that the consciousness you know the consciousness the light where everything's appearing and then and then um kind of easing into you know that hotel light when it's off there's a capacity there's a light that gives there's a light that's shining on the light that's off and on right so deep sleep so so if we're talking about like binary like deep sleep is zero and appearance is happening is one you know there's something that's even there that's that that's allowing this one to appear that this oneness of of the ten thousand things or the ten trillion things there there's a light on for the light to even turn on and then everything's appearing in that that's the distinction between awareness and consciousness or awareness and little c consciousness but it's one in the same every appearance is that it's that every appearance is appearing in that that presence that's there even in deep sleep when you can't say anything about appearances it's it's giving light to the light that shines on and the 10 000 things that pop up in it so there there's definitely value to the idea of folks who are in the you know like good behavior right and and lovingness definitely there's money in that seekers flocked for that and and you know flock to, you know, they want to be like that.
And there's, you know, that's a beautiful expression to say like, okay, this presence has manifested in I'm kind and loving and doing, as long as it's not performative, right? But it's not what we're pointing at here. What we're pointing at here is that presence that already reveals everything, whether we're labeling it as good or bad. It does not change. It is not dependent on behavior. It's not dependent on an understanding. Even the idea of being confused about this, and, you know, I have it, but I have a bunch of questions. You know, there's no shame in having a bunch of questions. But these bunch of questions are already being revealed, just like the idea of I'm all done, you know, and some big speech about how I'm all done.
And I'm all done. And I'm all done. And I'm all done. And I'm all done. And I'm how Bob helped me, you know, I'm beyond the need for, you know, what am I talking about? I'm beyond the need for further help. There's nothing about chemo that's beyond the need for further help. I need help as a person, but I don't need help as what I am. You know, my body's getting older, and like Kat said, there are relationship things, lawsuits, all this kind of stuff, but those are what's being revealed. That's not your true nature. It is your true nature, but not how it appears.
It's your true nature in essence, just like I was talking about the tidal wave. This whole idea of lawsuits, this one loves me, this one doesn't, the body's aching, the body's dying. That's just, it's not unreal. It's just an appearance. It's like Santa Claus, Phuket, the palm trees. Hotels. We think they're there. We think that's what we are, and we think they're permanent until the rug gets pulled out from under us and the tidal wave comes in, but we need to see right now that the tidal wave is already there. The only thing you can say about this is, is I am, and to say I am, you have to be aware.
So Bob teaches I am, I am aware. You can't say of the fact that you're not aware. Everything after that is a story, but that story itself is the awareness. It's not like, okay, I point, okay, let me go down the list. You know, Catherine, Gilbert, you know, all these people, Dean. Oh, I know that I'm aware. I'm president aware, but all these other people know that they're president aware, plus a story that's real, that they're trying to see through. There is no story. Except as an appearance, the story itself is awareness. So when you think that you're not having insights or that you're blocked, look at that so-called negative experience or that blockage and see that that's perfect, perfect enlightenment too.
It's a perfect revelation. Now, who's this one saying it's not a revelation? Like it's, I'm not going to give that the checkmark. So when I had this insight, when Bob was talking, I'll give that a checkmark because I felt a sense of lightness. When chemo talked, I felt a sense of tightness. That's I'm going to put an X next to that. That's not a revelation, but it is. You were there prior to that tension. You were there prior to hearing my voice. You were there prior to hearing Bob's voice. All that, all this comes after. It's, it's the whole, it's the whole, it's the whole, it's the whole, it's the whole, it's the whole cart and the horse aspect.
The fastest gunslinger in the West. Chemo is always an appearance, but I, but I want to take that gunslinger that comes up after every experience two nanoseconds later that there's a person who claims it as it was good or bad. It was an insider. It wasn't an insight, but, but what is that gunslinger? But yet another appearance being revealed. So we're, we're never going to put the cart before the horse that way when that scene, and it's not even an, oh, whoops. Oh, I can't believe it. You know, I, you know, I, I see what you're saying, but you know, Bob and, and all the, and Kat, they, they never have to question this.
There's a constant lightness there that I never have to question my ideas. So what, how, how does the idea that you're saying, you're saying, you're saying, you're saying, you're saying, you're saying, you're saying, you're saying, you're saying, you're saying, you're saying, you're saying, you're saying, you don't have to question it anymore. I mean, that someone is more advanced than you. They're not more advanced than you because there's, there's a revelation constantly, even if it's repetitive or bad, it's not better. It's just, it's, it's just a value, value judgment. But even right now in the midst of your confusion, in the midst of your questions, you are in the same place as Bob.
As Kat, as Nisargadatta or Ramana Maharishi. You just don't think you are. And I'll pass it there. Yeah, it was beautiful and, and very, very clear. That's really, you know, brings it, brings this to the point, you know, you already are, regardless of what you believe to be true. And I just, I just found the cards that I made of Bob's point. Some time ago and the one that stares at me as a beautiful, beautiful sunset in America. When I was working there and I'm just going to enter a couple in the room and that one says, resonate with that. It is not about gaining understanding, but discarding confusion.
You can never figure out who or what you are, but you can discard what you are not. Keep discarding until you are left with no thing. I cannot discarding the confusion that, oh, other people got it. Other people know it. Other people don't have to question what other people. And I love the way Kimo, you actually put it out. You know, everything is happening is revealing itself in that light of knowing that is enlightenment lightness light light of knowing. So now knowing of confusion or the knowing of discarding the confusion that is all happening in that light of knowing so any questions insights anyone would like to maybe highlight anything from the introduction or Jenny?
Hey, good to see you. I mean, I just see the icon, but I hope to see your face. Do you like on? Hang on? Yes. Yes. Here I am. I'm on my telephone still. And I can quickly. show my face and then i will uh take off the camera again because i'm sitting in the sun hello and it's very bright and hi all it's very bright so i'm gonna talk and close my eyes at the same time so i go camera okay yeah so here i am then i can close my eyes um yeah first of all i just want to thank you for your introductory spielkat it was so just just so beautiful so so beautiful and uh it's something that we like to broadcast out to in a sense to the whole world because when we when we start to look around and uh it becomes really obvious that it is the identification that causes so much pain and so much dysfunction excuse my dogs so much pain and so much dysfunction i've been traveling the last two weeks and meeting with people i haven't seen for quite a while and experience situations where i got to really see like watching a movie how this misc i did identification and this holding on to the identity of this imaginary self causes so much pain if we if we think that we that we actually are are, this body, this mind, these thoughts, and that everything that comes towards us is either a blessing or an attack, life becomes very, very, very strenuous.
And I watched how one of my relatives felt excluded from a simple gathering, and how all the stories revealed itself about being excluded, about how can somebody do this to me, and the inability, like, you know, we humans, we can be like terriers, biting onto a bone, and just refusing to let go, you know, just refusing to let go. And that's how we cause ourselves, or whatever, that's pain, that is suffering. Again, when, yeah, we are all Buddhas, when we see that it's really the desire and the aversion that puts a stick in the wheel for us, two-legged earthlings, you know, for this illusion. And watching it...
But watching what happens and remembering that that too is like Kim Udo pointed out, or everything is just an appearance and knowing that there is nobody doing anything. There is not a person biting on like a terrier. It is just an expression of life expressing itself like that. And when watching everything around us, it's so easy to fall into, for instance, judgment and to realize, oh, wow, hang on, wait a second. While judgment is also just an appearance, the holding on to the trauma is an appearance. The everything is just, it is like it is appearing and yeah, just appearing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it's labeled as pleasant and sometimes it's labeled as not pleasant.
Yet there's always the awareness that all of it is happening and the awareness, the knowing, the I am-ness, you cannot find it. You cannot put it in a box. You cannot capture it. You cannot try to make a portrait of it. You cannot photograph, take a picture of it. Yet still, the knowing, the I am, the tattva mazi is undeniable, yet unfathomable. And that's what I felt like contributing with today, over and out. Thank you, Jenny. That's beautiful. And we have, Sandra has the hand up. Would you like to unmute? Hello. Hey. So, look, I had the surgery last Thursday and I wanted to talk about something that happened before, the night before.
I mean, I wasn't worried about the surgery. I was like, I know. I was totally confident. But the night before, this contraction in the body arise really strong, really, really, really strong. I couldn't sleep. And it was like this until I went to the hospital. They put me to sleep. Surgery happened. And then when I start to wake up, that contraction was gone. So I remember, for example, taking my animals to surgery and it wasn't anything, I guess, because they didn't have any health problems. They didn't have any health problems. They didn't have any health problems. They didn't have any health problems. They didn't have any health problems.
Because they didn't know what was going to happen. Right? So I was with this contraction. I was watching this contraction. At the same time, I was like, who is this eye that is watching? Right? Because there's no eye. Then who is watching? And it was like, OK, the mind knows that something is going to happen to the body. So I guess the contraction comes because of the mind. The animals don't have the mind. They don't reason. So there's no reaction before the thing happens. Right? I guess I'm right with this. Let me continue. But I don't know what you can say about it. But OK, I was in recovery.
And I'm still recovering. But the body is still recovering. So I have a lot of time. Now. Because I'm having help with the kids and everything. And I've been listening to this so-called radical non-duality that they say there's nothing. We are nothing. You know? And there's no awareness. There's no conscience. I think it's something related to words. Because at the end, I think everybody is saying the same. Right? Right. Right. Right. But this led me to this place of this I, this I that is watching. Because I remember reading Sargaratan, he always used to say, stay with the I am. Stay with the I am.
But I am beyond that. There's anymore the I am. You know? The I am is like the first step to go farther or to step away of this I am. of the I am this or I am that, just I am. But like I am is like this radical non-duality they say, I am is still duality. If there's someone watching something there's still a subject and an object, so there's still duality. Yeah, coming back to this contraction in the body, like the body knowing that something was gonna happen, so and this watching the contraction, you know, or this watching the pain after after the surgery, like okay, awareness can watch or it's just this with no subject object, you know, because I think there's something that I get confused with just words or vocabulary because I think they are saying the same, but what we are talking here or what is being shared is that this cannot watch, right?
This is just this, there's no watching, but we have to talk, we have to communicate in some way that can be understood or understood, right? So, yeah, all this. See, see the idea that there has to be subject and object comes again only from language. The idea that there has to be someone for the watching to happen. The idea there has to be something for the rain to happen. Can you separate the rain from the drops, the raining from the drops? It is one singular happening, singular, singular experiencing. And now the mind says no, no, there has to be someone having an experience. Not true.
Not true. That doesn't have to be anyone having anything, but seeing is happening. That means there has to be someone watching. No, it doesn't. That doesn't have to be anyone doing anything. It's just watching. That's it. Just witnessing. That's it. But there has to be awareness than doing it. No, this is only the story in the mind. That doesn't have to be anyone doing. Think anything. This is just pure plain happening. Mind comes and says, oh, yes, if there is an I am, that means that there is someone. So this is even prior to the I am. So there is someone now imagining. No, I am all of that mental somersaults are happening.
Just happening like in the dream. The dream is happening. Who is dreaming? No one is. Dreaming is dreaming is the nature of reality is to vibrate. It's like who is moving electricity from the socket towards the globe. No one is moving it. Oh, no, no. There has to be someone moving it. It doesn't have to be anyone anywhere. The idea of the radical non-dual is no something more or something better because that's just more verbal diarrhea. It's just more languaging. The unknowing is more but it's a creature. Because it's as revengeable at destiny level. And then also the proof that if there was a contraction, that means there was a mind.
Everything is just an appearance in consciousness. Like Kimo was saying, you know, in the light of knowing contraction, no contraction? Who says that? One is better than the other? It's just what's happening. See, I was assisting Bob two, three, four actually four major surgeries throughout. The the Power Word. You know what i mean? It's great to get into this child labor seminar. Let's throw that gap in. You know, theseuinely chubby women need to be muscle contraction, because they just need to get pre transplanted. So it's important that women be able to do it or that involves a lot of work. about the nearly decade that we had together.
Every surgery in your 90s is a risk, is anesthetic, is a risk. So there was a potential that he's not gonna wake up, that I'm seeing him for the last time in my life, but not a thought across his mind or my mind. So there was just being present. If his blood pressure was measured, highly likely it would be a little bit elevated, even though no thought was present. Even with the fact that the environment was different, the idea that, oh yeah, mind was present, that means I'm not getting it, that means something is wrong, that means, that means, that means, that means, that means, nothing means anything.
And by the way, your thingies look like a good, really nice, elevated, highly sophisticated necklace. I have similar necklace, and I really like them. Yeah. I know. And really, really good to hear that it all went well, and that you have help in recovering and all that. Don't overthink it though, because see, you're diving back into what is not happening. In the awareness, in the light of knowing, contraction has appeared and contraction has disappeared. Would that be preferred if there was no contraction? Why? Because there is who, according to who. Every appearance is equal, whether it is rain or whether there is a sunshine. If there is a preference, that preference is also equal.
There is a rain, or there is a sunshine, and there is a preference. It's all just what's happening. It's just because it's a sensation of watching. You know, I've been with for hours with a contraction, and... like something or someone was observing the contraction, you know? It's just that, but at some moment I started, who is watching? Who is watching, you know? And well, it's just that. Because really no one knows what happens when the body dies. No one really knows. Because, you know, some people say there's nothing. Some people say there's reincarnation. But really, for real, no one knows. It's just this now. What happens when you switch off the computer?
I don't know. Reincarnation or nothing? I don't know. What does it even matter? See, preoccupation with not now. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm trying to say, yeah. Yes, that obsession of the mind. But I need to know what's next. What I? What next? This is the experiencing. Now, relaxing that mind, engaging it, if it has to be engaged with the experiencing, creates that beautiful, magical, relaxed sort of... natural state of contentment, which becomes kind of default. Not being preoccupied with the next moment. If the next moment requires action, the urge will show up. You can totally trust life. And when the next moment will be the cardiac arrest, well, you can totally trust life on that too.
And only the mind can imagine. The moment in which... Or can try to imagine the moment in which the body is in need or the body... But what for? It is perpetuating the habit. So that contraction before surgery was mind imagining things? Not necessarily. It was see, contraction before surgery was exactly that. The contraction before surgery. That's all. That's all. That's what appeared. Now, mind want to make sense of it. Want to interpret it. Give it a label. And maybe even beat itself up. Or maybe even evaluate itself. I should, I shouldn't. That's wrong. That's... It was just the contraction arising. You know, the same way as the hunger is arising or thirst is arising.
There's nothing right or wrong about anything that arises. The contraction arising is the 10,000 things, is the whole universe. Interdependently. Coexistent producing the contraction. And you can blindly just look that the motivation behind it is always love. Don't have to even put the story, but this is one essence, one energy. If you call it love, that one energy is appearing as contraction. Love to me. Yes. Yes. And, and, and, and, and even calling it contraction is already. It's already kind of defiling it. That love of being. And it's, yeah, so good to see you being, just having it all behind you. That's, that's always, you see life loving itself in, in, but yeah, don't, don't overthink it.
You know, see the idea that you can get something wrong. It's just another thought. There is no you. There is. Absolutely nothing that you can get wrong. This is just how life is appearing. If it appears as a panic attack, anxiety or paranoia, and in that paranoia, rejecting everyone that loves them, because there is a trauma in the system. That's how, how it is appearing. Who says this is right or wrong? You are the presence in which this one is appearing and now, oh, yes, but I am cognizing emptiness. So there's still duality. Because maybe there is an emptiness that is not cognizing. Well, right in this moment, in the eternity of now, they're not cognizing is imagined.
Cognizing is happening. That's all there is imagining that there is some other time before the body died or before it was, but it's again, just another idea appearing in consciousness in the light of knowing. That's all there is a preoccupation with time other than now. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Future. Past or place other than here. Is the mind is always the mind. Even the idea that, oh, yeah, but there is more radical than this, you know, transcending consciousness and going right into awareness. Who is going where? This is it. Who is I had a really nice conversation today with someone who was with.
who did some you know jeffrey martin's course and and and something uh else and they have all those different you know exploring consciousness going to different locations going to more pleasure more cosmic union more this more that you know all that idea another sales speech saying keep seeking keep seeking there's more asserting the identity and asserting the sense of luck i'm doing it wrong i can do it better there's no one there this is it if the attention is moving to the left or to the right or is moving towards some elevated state or or no state this is it everything else is imagination it's not here not now okay thanks thank you and thank you for sharing you know the this is always really precious when people actually bring up the the concerns and even vulnerabilities or even actually just say that look you know maybe there's something here that is not landing or you know that's that's really precious because doubts arise that's just part of the arising and looking at them together and and laughing them away what a privilege thanks bye yeah thank you thank you and i have couple uh i i see you isabel you can quickly on me and i'll just quickly uh read the comments here richard says many thanks excellent chat back to work for me again now thank you richard and contraction arising is like the rain raining says jenny yes and capil says i still clearly experience an eye or a witness that watches thoughts emotions and contractions passed by i also experienced having the choice to engage with those thoughts with this thoughts or not it feels undeniable that this i exist is this a misconception lovely i love the way you framed it capil i still clearly experience an eye see there is an eye that is old seeing it's completely marry???
experiencing an eye so we have two eyes one that is watching and another one that is arising in consciousness are you actually aware of the whole dynamic the witnessing eye and the arising eye watching the contraction all of that witnessing watching arising contraction all of it is known in that enlightenment what what kimo was saying in the light of knowing the witnessing is also known i know i'm witnessing i know i can experience eye witnessing how do you know because there is this primordial knowing in which the witnessing is cognized but is does it mean that there is an eye that is knowing the witnessing the eye that is witnessing the arising of the contraction no no no the whole shabang is arising in the knowing in the consciousness in the awareness or whatever way you want to call it sense of eye persistent sense of eye is arising and it is cognized is registered in that registering capacity contraction sense of eye guilt shame desire aversion all of that is arising in consciousness and is registered does it mean that there is an eye that is registering no it doesn't just like it doesn't mean that there is a rain that is raining or there is someone that is doing the looking if the seeing is happening or that is someone that is squeezing the heart when the heartbeat is happening this is pure functioning like planet moving around the sun it doesn't mean that there is a planet doing the moving this is just this happening and i can't see you isabel where are you yes hello oh there you are i want to give sandra a little bit more because i know i'm also was on church on my face last monday it's it's it's yeah that's life too and it's going to be very very rough to experience that and you know what really really so false is we hear all the fancy words enlightenment awareness the knowing the being i don't know you know all the fancy words and what what was so close with that he said the closest that you can come is i am that i am i am that i am and you know that there's a word the point of the energy and a word i am that i am put the head in your heart i love him to be and then you can see like that's so much so beautiful explain the knowing it's so easy to knowing the knowing when you are pirates there is annoying when you are hungry there is annoying and there is a sensation of pain there is annoying there's seeding here there is a knowing this voice was speaking now there is a knowing that's all there is the knowing knows everything there is no beginning no ending, you cannot stop it.
That's the I am that I am. And at this point, but you know the mind is so rude with all the books we read, with all the teachers, with all the fancy words, with all the blah blah blah. I am that I am, the loving to be, the closest that is. I love that loving to be again and again and again. And that is not the doer, and that is not I need to do that. But there's a huge point of to trust that and don't trust the talkable in your, sorry I don't find the word, don't trust that. The titles, oh I don't know, awareness, consciousness, presence, oh I don't, I must forget everything.
It's all concepts. They're never ever true in that. I am that I am, that I am, loving to be. Sitchat Ananda. That's the thing that I want to share now. Thank you all. It was really great listening to everyone. I liked to get that so beautiful Sandra to hear from your space. And I hope you are going fast and be lovely for your body. And to the lovely. That is also so beautiful. Bob also point to the intelligence. You can grasp it and bring us it's pumping your heart. Make it, they want ultimately the surgery for a human human to do that. The body fix that but intelligence.
It's unbelievable. Wow! covercm now! coming in. rpm going again it's unbelievable oh my god wow! well always to do that. Very cool picture. How you found it. What's the next thing you did with the soul. It was wonderful. There you and after one week it's maybe you're jumping around and make a dance and ah it's so it's such a miracle this life and that's what you are thank you thank you isabel yes i am that i am and we are on time now carnelius would you like to wrap it up quickly imagine since you were two and a half years old you made fist and you clenched your fist very hard and you kept it clenched for 60 years eventually your mind convinces itself that you're holding on to something one day for no apparent reason you relax the fist and you can see that you weren't holding on to anything that's beautiful someone said that the other day that's the idea of hanging on to the thought that i am i have a separate existence i'm a person with a name and a story and i matter and i'm a unique slow snowflake there's nothing it's just happening um when it rains there's no one raining it just rains it's raining so that's all thank you bye wow that was that was a punchline loved it absolutely beautiful and thank you everyone and uh join us next week if you can and we have um that was helpful says uh