This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on Facebook.
hey so we'll try again i think uh as of now we have um everyone who was gonna be with us if there will be some others joining later we'll introduce them later there's uh one more person coming up okay so would anyone like to start us off for another couple coming anyone would like to start us off today give us a little intro remind us oh cornelius how wonderful could you mute please and indulge us gee i look like dean oh it's me um um i've been thinking about thinking all week this stews away of course there's no i and there's no me to think about thinking but it's kind of like a cloud of flies buzzing around some kind of central point so we don't have to stop thinking to endeavor to stop thinking is a completely and utterly pointless exercise the thinking will just go on whether you want it to or not so with regard to thinking we can all just relax because it's just thinking i had this vision the other morning as i was waking up and it was an orchestra of children the children were about four or five years old and they were just sitting there in the orchestra place with their violins and their cellos and their trombones and timpanis etc they weren't playing the instruments they were just sitting there so it was serene these kids superimposed over the top of them as though someone nearby had a a data projector and they were projecting the stuff onto them and it was much older people playing the instruments very vigorously and making a lot of noise and really getting into it the kids were just kind of there folks hammering away was projected on top of them and as I was waking up I thought yeah that's what it's like inside us there's this kid and the kid is kind of fascinated by what appears to be going on but not really involved like it could be good or it could be bad it could be painful it could be joyous it's all just the flux the flux there's a field and the field appears to be teeming with energy and the energy presents itself as colors and sounds and apparent objects apparent solidity it vibrates into all that and this seems to be a central point of the mind and the mind is observed by something that doesn't change indescribable for its lack of qualities can't really be grasped by the mind because the mind is part of the flux the mind is another type of vibration going on in this field within within the field vibrating madly there is a central point that seems to identify as itself but it's impersonal it's just there it's one of the vibrations it's very persistent vibration saying I'm me this is me body world labeling but it's okay that that's there that's just part of the show I nearly said it's necessary to realize that um that the the apparent Observer and the apparent field of vibrating stuff are not different and that's where we get our little um label of non-duality the stuff vibrating and the thing that doesn't vibrate are actually the same thing and inseparable but not necessary who would it be necessary for um we had a question the other day about who deserves peace uh Ray raising um what's the definition of deserves um what's peace um and who is who uh it's story and the story is part of this vibrating field of energy vibrating field of energy I'm thinking there are times I'm thinking there are times when I talk here as though I've done it's kind of Pride that says oh yeah pride that says oh yeah I get it I can talk but then it's I get it I can talk but then it's shame the other end of the stick that says oh no I should just be humble and I was it should to cotton it's not fair at this point at least on ndb I should just be into it hold your real thing it's part of real to express your killing I should fight ask together you should too生 ndb oh yeah it's such a crazy thing to be neutral maybe it just was it about to push turns to love or something more than a marriage and I just should be quiet.
Whereas, like, it doesn't make any difference. Either there's talking or there's no talking. And if this one doesn't talk, then someone else will talk. So there's talking. Where does the talking come from? Nobody knows. There appears to be talking. There appears to be an escape hatch from all of this. But I'm not sure as though some type of imagined life before was a wretched, sad hellscape. And that for 35 years, we looked for the hole to get out. But that wasn't the case. That isn't the case. And the hole to get out. After so many years, apparently, I rang up. Bob one day and Bob said, well, you know, you are, don't you?
And it was so simple. And the thing that you're looking for is you've already got it. We already got it. There's nowhere to go. There's nothing to do. It's already here. And it was always here or it's always here now. It's such a son of a linguistic habit to refer to a past as though it's actually behind us. We can refer to the future. We sort of understand that the future is not here yet. But the past, it's done and dusted. It's the past. This kind of came up in conversation the other day. And we just eaten ice creams. And it was suggested by someone, perhaps me, that, well, there isn't any past.
Like, yeah, but we just ate ice creams and now I'm digesting it. It's like, yeah, but. You're kind of convinced that you have a body and that there's guts and that there's digestion going on. But in reality, like as soon as the ice cream gun goes under your nose and disappears. You don't really know what's going on after that. You've read books about digestion and your parents told you, like, that's what happens. And then it becomes a poo and then you can see it again. So there's all this stuff in between food and poo where you only kind of imagine. And or you've been told that there's this process and the same thing happens with thoughts.
Well, that good. There's a brain and humans have a brain and. It's kind of bullshit, really. Like, it's just now and it's just this. The carpenter has lost his pencil and he looks everywhere for his pencil. He goes to India and chants for 15 years and he comes back and he gets a proper job and wears nice clothes. But eventually. Someone says your pencils just behind your ear. And it's like, oh, yeah, that's ridiculous. Like, I went to so much trouble to find it and it was just already always there. I was sitting outside one day looking at the trees. And it. Very mysteriously and suddenly made sense that.
The things that are being seen. The act of seeing itself and the seer. Cannot be separated. And that little story that I've heard so many times before. Suddenly. Kind of quietly popped. And when that happened. Over the next few weeks and months. The urgency. Of being Cornelius. Left. He was no longer important. He became like a. A. A special guest star in the show. But then he sort of done his thing and he was gone. The stuff. That he worried about for so long. Was. Seen through as being. Utterly unimportant. It was like he'd become. Depressed. He looked up on chat GPT. What was wrong with him?
Chat GPT said you've got. And her Donia. And. Like and I guess and had Donia is like. The root word being. Hedonist. As in the one who enjoys stuff. And an hidden hedonism. Would be. You don't enjoy anything anymore. But it sort of wasn't like that. It was just like. Yeah. Well, you know. Everything's kind of going on and it's just fine. But. Really it's not. It's nothing to get hung about. It's just going on. And then. The more. Attention that was given to this. Nothing. The more it seemed to fill up. All the so-called space. And that. The stuff. Was there. And it just really was just there.
And it was all. Kind of okay. All kind of okay. I mean. Isn't that what we're looking for? This things to just kind of. You know. Be. A part of. The. The. The. The. The. The sort of. Yeah. It just seemed. Kind of. Like to just kind of. Just. Be okay. I don't know if there was a before. But before. It seemed like stuff was never kind of okay. Like. You'd get what your heart desired. And it. It's kind of like. Oh. It wasn't the same as in the shop or it wasn't the same as in the photographs online. It's like. Oh. Yeah. So you throw it in the pile.
And start looking for the next thing. And. I never intended this to happen, but. Somehow I. Found this guru. And. guru and did this 10-year dance with this person in India. And poof, it kind of didn't make any sense anymore. It was kind of ridiculous. I went to university. I became an academic and I learned everything there was to be learned in the world, information, knowledge, the whole business, which became like, strangely, it meant I got a job doing that. It wasn't sort of fulfilling. And I sort of knew there was something because of, I don't know, meditation or something, there seemed to be like this kind of, oh, yeah, well, this is just what you do.
Like you go and play three-dimensional chess for the rest of your life and that's what you do. But then, strangely enough, my contract expired and that was the end of that. And I was blasted into this actual physical emptiness. I could do whatever I like suddenly. I moved to another country and... Everything was kind of great. But I started to look for that thing that seemed to be there. Like I said before, like the hole in the reality, we can sort of go get out of it because it has sort of been promised to me for so long. It was an idea that I was kind of still fixated upon.
And I'm looking online for finding gurus. And I was getting up even earlier. And I was meditating for longer and chanting by myself. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to be able to do this. I'm doing all this stuff. And I would come across non-duality sites where they say, you know, you don't have to meditate. Like it's all kind of pointless. You don't need to do any of that. I was like, no, no, no, that's really like... And other people, you'd come across other people the next week who'd go, no, no, don't let them tell you that you should stop meditating because you need to keep doing that.
It all seemed very urgent. And I grew increasingly desperate to find something until I came across Bob. Bob was kind of normal from Melbourne. And I'm from Melbourne. So Bob, I rang Bob up because he seemed to make sense. He said things like, well, what's wrong with right now if you don't think about it? I was like, that's amazing. What's wrong with now if you don't think about it? And it's always now. And you're nothing but awareness, choiceless, effortless presence, awareness, always fresh. And I always knew Bob's your uncle. So I adopted him as my uncle. And when I rang him up, he said, well, I was asking him questions about Nisargadatta Maharaj.
And he didn't even want to talk about that. He said, well, look, you know, you are, don't you? You know, you are, don't you? This was this was Ramana Maharshi saying, when this when you realise this, you'll laugh. And it's, it's funny, because you always had it. It's the carpenter with the pencil. You brought the pencil to the show. You took the pencil to India. The pencil's always been there. The pencil was before you were you. It's beautiful. The I heard Nisargadatta say that when he was questioned about what his state is, or what's, what's the world like for him? He said, Huh? Oh, the world?
Oh, well, it's like sort of a tiny little thing. It's like a fluttering of energy on the edge of my awareness. And really, in here, this is sort of vast, vastness, which is kind of like dreamless sleep. But this room here with all you guys, oh, yeah, well, it's going on. He had cancer, and he was in pain, and he had lung cancer, and it was like, destroying his body. But that too, was kind of on the edge of awareness. Now. He also said, the more attention that's given to the spiritual, the more it's given to the spiritual, the more it's given to this, I don't know what to call it.
The more attention that's given to that, the less urgent, the old stuff that seems to be so important is, and that seems to be happening. Like, okay, we've got this friend, and she split up with her partner, because he was a beast. And fair enough. But she hasn't divorced him. And it's been a year. It's like, he's not getting any better. They're not getting any closer. And other fellas are starting to kind of sniff around as they do. But others, other fellas are not really committing, because she still got this attachment to Bluebeard. Now, it's interesting, because it occurs to me that it's hard to let go of your important stuff.
It's hard to let go of your heart's desire. It's hard to let go of all the stuff you want. It's hard to let go of all your regrets. It's hard to let go of the filthy life you led before, full of sin and debauchery. It's hard to just drop all that, as though it doesn't matter. Your career, your ambition, being a star, being rich, being healthy, being young again. It's hard to, like, just let that go until you've got, like, the next little thing to latch on to. And then you've got to let it go. And then you've got to let it go. And then you've got to let it go.
And then on to so this story reminded me of that uh that actually it's not it's not an act of volition that can be done you can't just drop it all because you sort of become this lazy hopeless wreck but it seems to get dropped automatically like it falls away it's still there which makes me think to bob's story about the sky remains blue even though you know that it's not blue you've been up there and it's it's clear goes for miles and it's clear but come down here when you look up the concentrated 50 kilometers of pure oxygen and ozone and stuff it looks blue so speaking to you now there appears to be a cornelius there appears to be many things but the sky appears to be blue and it's just not like nothing's really happening now nothing's happening in 15 minutes this will be a memory so in a way all experience when it's happening it's happening but after it's happened it's always in retrospect me thinking now that i thought about this the other day is retrospect and anything that's in retrospect is the conceptual sort of cloud of thoughts that are somehow swarming around now so you don't need to stop thinking uh the more attention that you give to the lack of thought uh the more Darrin W 남 transport is in effect legs chinese so i don't want to life up your self service i hope that's helpful uh the more uh the more the non-urgent serenity business fills the empty spaces and i don't want to promise anyone anything but this happiness and happiness is a funny word happiness comes from the same nordic route as the word happens hap and happy happy hap happens it's all the same thing so like if you're happy it's like you're happy so luck happens no keep calm bilisah that's cool that's perfectly fine but more than this is always the same thing so like if you're happy it's like you're not feeling all the time you're experiencing these things and then you know!
Yeah, whatever. And that seems to be the case for this non-existent point of reference here at this end of the computer. Beautiful, amazing, serene, complicated nightmare scenarios all mixed together and that should give us something to discuss. Wow, that was truly indulgent. Really, really yummy. Thank you. Yeah, so would anyone like to highlight the bits that you actually liked the most? Because every single sentence was beautifully potent and juicy and clear and lovely put. Did anything actually struck a chord in your system? Anything, you know, ice cream turning to poo, that's good too. That was brilliant. Because it really shows the amount of assumptions that are brought into moment-to-moment experience versus what is actually directly known.
The eternity of now? Come on, just tell me. Or what maybe was super clear and really struck a chord and resonated. Or maybe there is something you'd like to explore further. Ask further questions. Look a little bit more into it. Or maybe pick another. I can't think of anyone who is ready to share with us about this. I can't think of one. I can't think of, sorry, anything, anything specific you'd like to see, but I just wanted to put that in your notes, because I know that you are looking at some sort of a kind of question about the past. I think, you know, maybe your moments are really good.
Do you have a question that you wanted to ask about the past? Or maybe it's just been interesting until a couple of weeks. I think it's a great question, but I'm not sure if I've answered your question. If not, please, let me know in the comments. And I'll just answer that in a minute. Thank you. plain pointing and i see capio has a comment here if the separate self does not exist what is the mechanism behind decision making wonderful question thank you for example the choice to join this meeting seem to require an eye to initiate it if there is no me what exactly made that decision and what is currently exercising the agency to either stay or leave i love those questions beautifully formulated very precise and very deep would you like to answer that cornelius or should i do it or anyone else i think you better okay yeah it's the greatest of pleasure so if the separate self doesn't exist what is the mechanism behind decision making what is the mechanism behind decision making what is the mechanism behind decision making what is the mechanism behind decision making what is the mechanism behind decision making what is the mechanism behind the decision making if you look on my right hand side there is a cut on my left hand side there is a cut they don't have separate me as far as we know because that me is made of language the cuts they don't have symbolic language so they can't can't actually construct they don't have labels for objects they don't formulate symbols so they actually don't hallucinate that there is a little cut inside that makes decision and yet so they actually don't hallucinate that there is a little cut inside that makes decision and yet jump with the dersal it makes them feel embarrassed about it that's why i am going to say that bottom card up top at first they might just say where is happening ah call mine at this moment so i can't on uh you can check that give or take this read know why you are talking so directly to me your question is really really well put and I had those questions for decades as well if there is no I who is speaking right now if there is no I who is actually seeing who is choosing to look at the camera rather than at the cut and now if you look at the mechanics of the whole universe the mechanics of automatic following of the impulses in the field of attention let's say noise happened sudden noise happened there was no cut inside that animal who chose to give the attention to that little noise I didn't even know a minute ago that this noise will happen I had no idea it just happened the noise happened attention got attracted to that noise and because of the 것 past conditioning which associates the noise with danger with something breaking something falling that program has elicited that response the cat got suddenly alert and every other response of the body will be according to the conditioning and some people who live in a noisy environment may simply ignore that noise and other will have response and they all will have the commentary which say i decided to respond or i decided i made the decision to eat the pizza over pasta but is it really the eye that made that decision there is a pizza and there is a pasta or salad the two things one creates particular emotional response in the whole bio machine another one causes another response in a bio machine all according to the pattern of thought.
conditioning which is programming of the machine if the machine has been programmed to have liking to a pizza or to a pasta or to a salad the response may be favorable towards one or the other if the narrative that has been programmed in the body was to let's say scold it for unhealthy food choices then even though there is an emotional response towards something yummy there is also sort of ethical moral social response towards something unhealthy and those two dynamics those two programs insert in the machine depending on the day on a weekday this one may actually be a deciding one on the stronger day when you're more happy and the weather is nicer and you had a good night's sleep this one will be the winner of the decision making but the narrative will still follow us up and overlay the commentary.
I have decided to have this today. I have decided to join the meeting. The narrative has appeared, but because there is a conditioning already installed, the thought that arise out of nowhere, oh, there is a meeting response to that thought, oh, the joining of the meeting or the attraction towards the meeting, that response has appeared because of the conditioning in the body, because of the preferences that has been programmed in the body. And the narrative came, I have done it. I have free will. I've done it. There is a lot of brilliant experiments made by science, even in the way of the working of the machine.
How is the free will illusion created on the way of the neural network? The illusion of free will, how it is created, the illusion of decision making, how it actually comes into existence, because this is the stimuli response machine. It's a response to the stimuli. The stimuli may came up internally from the memory, but no one knows what the next thought is going to be. But the narrative says, well, but I think them. I do the thinking. I fire the synopsis in my brain. I do the oh, no, maybe I'm not doing it, but the thinking I'm doing thinking. So if I'm doing the thinking, I can choose to think of joining the meeting and I can choose to follow up on that choice.
But if I'm not doing the thinking and if I don't know if that particular thought or memory will come up, well, obviously then the option of even following it, which is another thought or is a response to a thought, which is also a form of a thought, is not on the menu anymore. And I see Cornelius, would you like to elaborate and take a different angle on that question? Yeah. Staying with the same thing that whenever there's an experience, like I said before, whenever there's an experience or an apparent decision has been made, it's always narrated, as you say. In retrospect, like as though there was some sort of past.
Okay. So sometimes the meeting will be forgotten. And at 1230, it's like, oh, I forgot the meeting. As though I forgot the meeting. But in that moment there, whatever is going on is going on. And the meeting and the forgetting of the meeting are sort of imagined now. Apparently today. I remember the meeting as though I remembered it. And I decided to be that. But really, in the direct experience of now, this is just the meeting. And so, like, agency, agency is kind of doership. As we said the other day about pride, which could also be said about shame. It's just thinking that there's a you who's doing it.
And you can argue, of course, there's a me. Who's doing it. Yeah. I decided to do this meeting. I've been doing sadhana for 40 years. I decided this. And I'm looking for that. And I found this. And I found that. So, yeah, well, good luck with that. Yeah. It's always a narration that's been applied, superimposed over the present moment. More thoughts. Yeah. Beautiful. And in the all brutal. Well, honesty, if you contemplate on any moment of your life, when you and I'm speaking to everyone, let's do it together. Who in which there was a point of the decision that was important and that decision had to be made.
And maybe there was a little hesitation for making the decision because it was important. You know, the sense of importance, a contraction, something personal, something maybe intimate. And decision had to be made. Everything in the whole dream scream. You must choose. And you completely perplexed. You know, what if I get it wrong? And the anxiety sets in. We all know that dynamic. But in a very, very basic, even in a very neutral situations, like what color socks am I going to wear? There is a sense of agency. And the decision making. And how often you could actually catch yourself that these things were done without conscious thinking.
You just discover. Oh, okay. Black socks. Okay. Same way. You know, you're going for the ice cream. Am I going to have a fruit ice cream? I'm going to have chocolate. I'm going to have vanilla. And you open and you pause and you wait. And there is a search internally in the in the bio computer. Looking for which of those options is the most enticing. There is a computing going on and you are waiting to discover the result of computing. The computation goes on of its own on autopilot. Just like the heartbeat goes on by itself on autopilot. Just like the seeing goes on by itself.
Your eyes are open. Seeing is happening. Everything that arises in the field. Is arising in the seeing without you constructing doing it. It is on autopilot within that seeing within that knowing. The decision is being discovered. The choice. Ah, that's what I want. Yes. And then the narrative comes. I've decided I'm sure I'm certain this is my decision. I've done it. But five minutes ago, there was no clue. Okay. The decision hasn't been known yet. It hasn't been discovered in the same way. As the non doership, non agency, more honest approach, more serene approach to witnessing the life unfolding goes on as you really stabilize and ground yourself in that realization that the narrative, the explanation of the split, separation, division and taking credit and imagining the agency is not really neither efficient nor correct, but you actually open, you stay open and you discover the world unfolding.
You discover that suddenly there is a possibility of joining or not joining a meeting. Hmm. I'm curious. Which one is it going to be? Let me see. Oh, this one. Now another possibility arises in the field of consciousness. I can stay or I can leave. Again, which one is it going to be? Let me see. And when I say let me see, it doesn't mean that there is a little me that is seeing. It means that whole openness, the cognizing emptiness being open. To discover, to allow whatever arises, whether it is going or leaving, whether it is coming or not coming. It is discovering just like the empty blank screen or blank canvas, allowing any painting to be cast on it or any movie to be cast on it.
Non differentiated, just completely open and allowing this state of being completely open and allowing and curious, mildly curious, witnessing whatever is arising, whatever. Life brings decision, choice, action. That is the natural state. And that is inherently there for every newborn baby is inherently there. If the mind is inactive, when the mind is at rest, naturally. It is the natural state. The mind comes online and it translates it into the language, the language model of duality in the language in which now it isn't just seeing. It is I and there is not I and the I is doing the seeing of the not I the separation.
And there is I having a power or agency to control the world and to control the dream and to decide for that body. This is just. A credit taking machine. The I not only it has no power whatsoever, it can't even stop seeing when the eyes are open. It can't even stop thinking. Thinking goes on automatically. It can't stop the heartbeat. It can, of course, take a knife and drive it through, but it has to have a thought. It can't do it if the thought doesn't arise. So it has no power whatsoever. But that's only the beginning of the story. Not only it has no power.
If there is something there that has completely no function and no power, why would it even be there? Let's have a look. If there is anybody there residing who does have a choice or whether it is just the here, the emptiness, discovering whatever arises choice, decision, action, like this cat. She's always present and he's always present discovering. Oh, Pat arrived. All right. He said that I was asked, what will you do? What would you do if someone comes in and fights in front of you or someone comes and slap you, what would you do? And he would say, it's not happening right now. If it happens, I'll discover what I'll do.
I'll see what I do. Let me see. Maybe I'll slap my bill around. I don't know. That's the point. In the natural state, a life is a mystery unfolding moment to moment, ever fresh, ever new. No one does it. Just like no one is beating the heart, that just like no one is leading the sun, no one is moving the blood. And yet blood is moving. Heart is beating. Sun is shining. Thoughts are rising. Some of those. Thoughts are called decisions or choices, but they're still just thoughts. Arising in the response to whatever changing environment. And they arise as the function of the thinking machine, like, you know, different animals have different senses.
Bats and dolphins, they have sonars and they are allowing the bodies of those those vehicles through which life experiences can express itself, navigate the dream. Humans have thinking capacity. Buddhists call it like sixth sense, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, thinking, because through thinking, this is one of the cognitive functions of human and Primali says thank you. And we have two more comments. Kapil says hearing that decisions are just conditioned reactions made the mind wants to give up entirely. Feeling. That nothing is in its hands. Yes. Perfect. How does this teaching differentiate between realization of non doership and falling into apathy and nihilism? That's a beautiful question again.
Wow. Wow. You're such a good value. Kapil. Thank you. Yes. The mind is giving up. The mind says, I hate it. I don't want to be here. If I have no power, fuck it. What's the world? I'm not going to get off the sofa. I'm going to just sit in the phone box. You know, there was a little story. I don't know if you maybe heard us saying joking. Bob had a man coming to the meeting and arguing that if that's all true, then I'm going to be offended at the world. I'm offended at God, and I'm not going to go to work anymore. And I'm not going to do anything.
And Bob says, well, try. Life may move you. You are not the doer. So you are not in charge of not doing either. So the guy said, okay. And then he left the meeting and he was driving over an hour home at night. So he was so worked up and so angry and so disappointed for the disillusionment of being the doer that he stopped, found the phone box and called Bob, and he started yelling at him. Even. If that's all true, I will never do a thing ever again. And that was 30 years ago. And Bob says, okay, fine with me, stay in the phone box.
And then Bob was later on telling the story, do you think there is a skeleton there in that phone box still until now, I assure you there isn't. So the idea that if I'm not the doer, I'm going to be depressed for the rest of my life. I'm going to be nihilistic. I'm going to be offended. I'm going to be bitter and I'm going to be anxious because, yeah, gosh, if I have no power, if I'm going to believe that I have no power, what am I going to do? Oh, my God, how am I going to control? How am I going to keep that body safe?
Realization on non doership is a crutch. This is not the final truth. That one is not the doer, meaning the narrating software, meaning the Siri in your phone, which is not the doer. When Siri adds eggs to the shopping list, she said, I added the eggs. But it's done nothing is the algorithm that which is not the doer. The thinking mind. It's not who you are. You are not the one who is not the doer. There is only half cooked truth. I'm not the doer. I'm going to be offended. I'm going to hate the world. I'm going to get depressed. Shit. Fuck it. No, that's not.
That is not who you are. It's much, much, much, much simpler than that. Doing happens. There's no doer thereof. Heart is beating. Mind doesn't do it. Mind is the narrating software, not the doer. But what? What you are, who you are is not the mind. You are not the non doing mind. You are witnessing the mind. You are witnessing the mind narrating and you may have part of what you what is witnessed may be a belief that, yes, but I have agency. I have responsibility. I have duty. I have power or that belief may be debunked. And yes. OK, the mind is just narrating software.
It aims at protecting the body. So there are survival mechanisms there. Five flight freeze responses and the people pleasing all the other habitual behaviors installed in that software. The witnessing of the mind. Doesn't have to do anything is pure intelligence is pure consciousness. It doesn't need to do anything. Anything doesn't need to relinquish the illusion of control. It never had one and never needed one. The pure, directly known experience of miracle, luminous existence itself, pure open field of the consciousness within which the world and the mind narrating the world arise as one that consciousness needs nothing. It doesn't. It doesn't get offended that it is not the doer.
It doesn't feel nihilistic or depressed. That the mind preserves the illusion of control, it doesn't need the illusion of control. It is just. Totally, totally content with whatever arises. Whether the mind beating around the bush and throwing tantrum, whether the mind full of serenity and appreciation, whether no mind, complete stillness. Doesn't matter. Mind is not the doer, but you're not the mind. And that's really the main part of the difference. I wonder if I'm missing out something. Realization of non doership, falling into apathy. So that which falls into apathy or nihilism. Is mind itself. That which takes an offense. That, oh, I don't like it.
I don't like that. I should relinquish the illusion of control. I'm going to be bitter and angry and resentful. This is a software that which is suffering, causing a suffering, creating the identity, believing that identity to be myself, the consciousness. That one. That one can get bitter and nihilistic. But you are not that. You are prior to nihilistic mind. If you witness the nihilistic mind. You see that this very nihilism is just another phase of love of being saying, yes, but I love to have illusion of control. How sweet. So you are the consciousness marveling at this. Aspect of love showing up as nihilism. And wow.
And the more of that relaxed attention in the consciousness, the less that software can even hold on to the idea of offense. Until psychological suffering completely impossible. And if it even comes up, it is like, wow, amazing. Amazing. Oh, my gosh. This mind got so angry. Wow. That was so juicy. But the presence, the stillness in which that was registered, no one doesn't get angry or juicy, it just is. It's just here. I don't know if that answers the question, but I see Isabel has the hand up. Maybe she can elaborate. Can you elaborate, Isabel? Oh, no. Was great. Explain. Point from you. Yeah. Wow.
What can I say about it? To say. I do nothing. What was the question from the the. Yeah. You said hearing that decisions are just conditioned reactions makes the mind want to give up entirely, feeling that nothing is in his hands, which is wonderful. Yeah. Let's surrender, be the tool, be the be the servant and not the master. But there goes the other part. How does this teaching differentiates between the realization of non doership and falling into apathy or nihilism? Yeah, if you identify as the mind, of course, that's excruciating. This illusion. Painful, offensive. Yeah. And, you know, when you say, oh, I can't do nothing, there is no doership, there is no doer.
That is a thought. And not doing is also doing. You know, that's that's the big release from the thoughts. Oh, now I don't gonna do nothing. That's also a doing. And then you can see for yourself. There is, like Katz mentioned, it was the grappling with her. To see, you know. There is only always now. And then come to thoughts, oh, now I'm going to sit on my chair and I do nothing. It's nihilistic. But. That is coming up now. And then you make a future thing from. There is only now. You cannot go to the future. And then you see, oh, the nihilistic, I cannot doing nothing.
You see, there is a knowing from this thought. There is an experiencing from this whole field. And then appears her thoughts. And you see the whole field appears. And maybe you say by yourself, you feel you need to go to the toilet. And then comes the thought, no, I want to be here. I don't go to. No, that is not a good example. The experiencing is already here now. The experiencing is already seeing and happening. The hearing. The hearing. Everything. But spontaneously here. That is the this here now. And then to see like a very good point to. There is no door, there is no little me.
The thought I choose is already a lie because I am the doer. It's empty. You cannot find. You cannot find our eye. You cannot find our doer. And that's such a great gift. I hear it from also an inspirator that he said, yeah, only God, nothing to do. That's already doing. And yeah, this beautiful mystery that we are, but we cannot say that we cannot point it, but it is already here, this now. And this here now. It's eternally now. And it is an experiencing. And this experiencing has no beginning and no end. You cannot stop it. You cannot grasp it. This knowing is knowing.
And not a particular knowing like we learn on school. I know this is a glass. I know this is a candle. No, there is a knowing that is empty and full. . And then there is the peace and the fulfillment from all what's happening in this moment now. And that is such a mystery, for sure. Such wonderful things that's happening here now. And there is no future. And there is now back. And you really go really. It is only now here. It is only. And then it's experiencing what they are very good at. And the knowing. And there is no resistance. Only this can resist.
Oh, I don't want to go to the toilet. Oh, I don't want to go. I don't want to have these thoughts. Oh, yesterday I know it better. Now I forget everything. This is all happening in this field of energy, from colors, thoughts, speaking, listening. And that's a great mystery to see that it's already here now. This, this, that I want to share now. Yeah, beautiful. So much doing is happening. And no doer. Just doing, doing, moving, breathing, seeing. Blood pumping. Living, life, even without mind taking any credit for anything that is happening. It's all the mystery unfolding moment to moment. Yes, Cornelis. It's, it's all.
Automatic. Like, there's nobody doing anything. It's just happening. It's automatic. It's. Culturally, it seems irresponsible. I can understand why Nisargadatta said, don't tell anyone about this or they'll crucify you. Because even the little things like, you'll be all right. Life's kind of automatic. Like, for me, it feels really totally, absolutely, indisputably true that it all just happens by itself. That this happens by itself. That I had a moment where it seems to be a process where you sit outside drinking coffee. And as these things emerge, they're, they're labeled and categorized by the mind. Oh, that's the sound of the water bubbling in the fountain. Oh, that's the sound of the sheep next door.
That's the tractor. That's a harvester. That's next door neighbors yelling at each other. That's a dog barking. There, there, there came a moment the other day where all that was happening. But there was no labeling going on, which was kind of cool. Like, it was happening. But there was no thinking about it. There's no, like, narration telling, telling whoever that this is what's going on. So it needs to be, like, categorized and put it in a little shelf, like where everything is. That's that sound. That's that sound. That's that sound. That seems to be the flavor of these days that even if I decide to do, as Isabel just said, even if I decided to actually last year, I did decide to just abandon everything and do nothing.
It lasted for about two weeks and I started tinkering with this thing and just doing this other thing because that's kind of what happens here. And before long, I was doing this particular thing better than I've ever done it before because I was just sort of doing it to fill in the time or whatever, I don't even know why. But it's sort of. It's continued. The decisions are always made and then afterwards I decided that. At least there's really no answers and. Look. Thinking about the field this week, I kept thinking it's a field, it's a field of energy, it's a field of vibrations, the field, the field, that's a poem, isn't it?
And I found the poem. It's by Rumi. And Rumi says, out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there. When the soul lies down in that grass, the world is too full of the world is too full to talk about ideas, language, even the phrase each other doesn't make any sense. So everything's all happening at once. And. IA, what do you call it? AI. Is further proof that everything is happening at once. You can just think something and ask a question. But it's immediate. Which is like, OK, there's no separation anywhere. That is all. Beautiful. We have a couple more comments.
Hank says our brain is already processing experience before we become aware of it. Yeah, that was that was one of the experiments, the so-called Libet experiment. You know, the blood is pumped. It's already to the limbs before you even think of deciding to rise it. That proves that the narration taking credit pattern is actually happening post-factum when the body is already on a chemical level processing the decision. Thank you, Hank, for reminding. And Kapil has one more question. If my actions are automatic, yours must be, too. Absolutely. Yes. How do I know your explanation? Of non duality is just an automatic reaction from your past conditioning.
Oh, that's beautiful. Brilliant. You thinking? Yes. Yes. Don't believe anyone. Could it be that consciousness itself is merely a concept produced by the brain? Well, it depends on the definition of the consciousness. We'll get it all. They are really, really great questions. I'm loving them all. What if this is entirely a simulation and nothing, including consciousness, exists outside of the mind's programming? Lovely. Absolutely beautiful. First of all, I bow down in reverence for not taking anything on the face value. My explanation is as much belief and words and concepts as anybody else's explanation. Don't take any explanation from physics, from non dualists, from simulation gamers.
Don't take any explanation from anybody. Figure it out for yourself. See what you know directly in your own direct experience. The speculation whether the consciousness could be a product of the brain. For example, you can have the large language model in in AI and whether there is a big sort of neural networks there, whether they can develop a consciousness. Or perhaps the consciousness that is just being the field of that electrical impulses. See how it depends on the definition of consciousness. Because the way we looking at the consciousness or one essence or one life or one intelligence or one field of infinite possibilities that has been here before the brain has grown, you know, when the sperm and ovum met together and started dividing and dividing and dividing, the life force was already bringing it into existence before the brain was even formed to create the illusion of that field, which you later on call consciousness.
So we are talking about the life force prior to any reasoning. This is the life force. But again, you're right not to believe even that because we just said that all the past is just a thought. In the mind, could that be another speculation, another belief or dream? Just like when you sleep at night and you're dreaming and everything seems solid and everything seems real, could it that be that this is also a dream or better yet, a simulation? Who cares? If you know that you are the presence in which the whole show unfolds. Whether you believe that show to be a simulation game, whether you believe that show to be a dream, whether you believe that show to be a God sent Jesus, angels and devils and hell and heaven, or you believe there is reincarnation, there's the agency of the mini me in the mind.
Who cares if you find in the direct experience that prior to all of the beliefs, here you are, here I am, the field of knowing the cognizing emptiness, spinning all those stories, the story of consciousness arising from the brain, the story of consciousness creating and growing the brain, the story of simulation, the story of science, the story of what else? All shit, beautiful, beautiful, absolutely wonderful movies, perfectly lovable, perfectly equal. You know, the Mormons, the Jehovah's, the science, the non duality, all sets of concepts, absolutely equal. But what is prior to those concepts and those descriptions is the direct experience. Here I am. And within that, I am all those channels, all those Netflix channels, religions, philosophy, science, speculations, theories, theory of everything, theory of past, future.
They spring into existence because I am like Cornelius was saying, beyond all ideas, right doing wrongdoing, religious ideas, scientific ideas, simulation ideas, the incarnation ideas beyond all ideas. This is the field. This is the here now. This is the. This is the direct experience. This is what we point to. We don't offer better philosophical or religious system of beliefs that the mind will adopt and say, I agree, I subscribe, I'll sign my life to it. No one can give you anything. Oh, well, anyone can give you everything. But non duality invites you to don't clutter that storage, that memory, any further. Rather unlearn and unclutter all the collection of thoughts and ideas that have been programmed into and look at what is known directly.
And you will see. One, only one unified, same insight in everyone. There's no separation that the only direct knowing prior to and beyond. Beyond all the ideas. Is there I am. I'm here what I am. I can't know. I can believe I'm the body and human person and mind. I'm believer this. I can't know it. I wasn't born with those ideas. Direct knowing prior to thinking. Beyond words, beyond mind, knowing, direct knowing, experiential knowing. Innate knowing. The knowing that you can reasonably assume sits even in this cut here. It's the sentience out there, this awareness of existence without even needing to name it, to label it.
And in that the whole show, believing I'm the doer, believing I'm not the doer, believing I can change the world or save myself, all those things are the channels, programs, changing thoughts, changing dreams. Reality is prior to the dream. And do we have another question here? And please keep them coming. They lovely, they beautiful, the yummy and. Yeah, isn't just automatic reaction from your past conditioning. Absolutely. Yes. Explanations totally. Look, all those explanations are just, you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't even speak English. If not for the past conditioning, needless to say, I wouldn't have that harsh accent. The way my projector has been conditioned to see things and put them in words, whatever explanation seems possible, totally, completely conditioned.
A lot of conditioning came from from Bob, my late husband. But some of it are actually Bob did not use those metaphors. He loved them when he heard them. But they just come from the conditioning. Nothing is mine or his either. Yeah. Beautiful to actually just really highlight that. And Cornelius. It seems entirely reasonable that nothing, including consciousness, exists outside of the mind's programming. That doesn't the Zogchen crew say that the mind and everything you think is also Buddha, that that it's all mind, all this is mind, that the world and mind and the world and life is nothing but mind, that it's all just happening mentally.
You could argue and say, yeah, but I can hold this thing and it has weight. It's like, yeah, there are perceptions and sensations that. Seem to arrive at a central command post and are then processed by mind to to align or not with prior past conditioning. So it's all mind. Like if I didn't wake up this morning. Which even that phrase is mind, it's all mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. That some of the vocabulary uses instead of unified field of infinite potentiality, they just called mind, Buddha, mind, unborn mind or just mind, any word will do. It is it isn't the word. Capul says no questions are coming up now.
Interesting. That's lovely, too. The 10,000 things says, Yvonne. Yes, that's yeah. Mind is really. Yes. As good enough word. As as any other word. They know. How about you? Do you have a spin on that? Well, I think everyone's covered. Hi, everyone. Nice to be here. Nice to listen to to you and and hear the questions and your expressions and and all of that and know you covered all bases really well. Actually, you missed out. You didn't really cover time. See, like exactly. I'm just joking. Exactly what you're saying. Like, honestly, there's there's there's a thing like we can discuss it and express it in so many ways, and yet everything is completely unreliable.
What a consciousness is, where it is, you know, even even doership and non doership and all all concepts is. There's something that happens. I guess when you when you come to these meetings or it doesn't have to be a meeting or a teaching or something happens in life. And it seems like, you know, some people something cuts the old programing, something cuts in and stops it in its tracks. And we don't really know what it is like in these meetings. It could be a pointer. It could be an energy. It could be because like we said from the very beginning, that Cornelius opened it with like, you know, the field of energy, the flux.
Exactly. It's like a flux. And in that flux, everything that you've discussed today appears. And I think something happens and that something that happens is is a non event, really, because it's it's like a cutting away and somehow it can be seen that everything is a concept. And I think so any thought, any idea is actually a concept, no matter how profound or how deep or how it's it's a word or or or a thought or a vibration of energy appearing as a thought describing the indescribable or all. But normally most thoughts are actually describing other thoughts, which so, you know, like a thought describing another thought or a string of thoughts which create a concept or a sentence or a story or an idea or an explanation or a scientific discovery or the infinite description of what the universe is and what life is are all constructs.
So I guess the real the real piece comes when there's there's like a recognition of of. That's appearing in the flux to you know, that all those ideas are appearing in the flux. Who am I? What am I? I don't know, but there because I am and I don't mean because I'm Dean is because there's an an an awareness there's there's life. There's a liveness that is undeniable. Everything is that's all that's all that we can really know. And this this this knowing, you know, like we can't know any of these other things that we've been discussing conceptually, no matter how profound they are, how non dualistic they appear.
And so we can't actually know that. The only knowing is this existence. And it's like everything is known in that field, but not an intellectual knowing, not not with a label or but it includes all labels as well. There's a knowing of life. And what is what is going on when I see going on? I mean, really, just there's a knowing of the flux. The flux is like. It's known like you don't have to know what or describe it in any particular way, but there's a flux and there's as a knowing of the flux and that's all that we can. So fundamentally, it's like all I can rely on is that there's an existence.
And because I because I exist, everything exists. And in that everything, everything's known to exist. That is that is the field and then the details and then all the words and all the descriptions and all the labels and all the seeking energy and the sense of being or the sense of doership, the sense of deciding or not deciding, looking into into realms of timelessness and all these things. They actually they're all plausible. They've all got a place and they've all got a way in which they can be pointed and shown to someone to break crack open the old pattern and conditioning. Yet they are all ridiculous, too, because they are all equally part of the flux.
So so and this this this I like this flux. I've never come across this term flux. Cornelius, it's good. It's good. I like it. It actually it seems to encapsulate the actual experiencing is fluxing. You know, it's it's just fluxing. And that's all you can you know, it's it's one huge explosion of fluxness. And and yeah. So why does this happen? Or to whom? Why does this happen? It doesn't happen to anyone or then the flux capacitor. Well, I might as well pause and just read this capital. If the if if the mind operates based on conditioning, does this mean the realization of the non dual field can be forgotten or overridden if we are subject to new programing?
Is realization permanent or is it vulnerable to future conditioning? That's another another really good question. But I thought there was no questions coming up now. And then Hank says to be or not to be is not the question. But back to back to Keppel's one. Would you like to answer it? Kat, unless you want to tackle it, you want to tackle it. See, the basic, you know, it's a beautiful question, a question, but assumes that I realize it's on the mind, it is not. Realization is primal, is prior to the mind. Realization is so simple and obvious that what Cornelius was saying in the beginning, when you realize that it has never been hidden, you can't help but laugh.
Does the mind realize, like Hank says here, can the mind realize? The sense of I am. Can the thought. Programmed to speak English or program to speak French or program to speak whatever AI language or program to forget or even brainwashed or even demented or even super extended with with some little extension parts, making it like encyclopedic or morphed or merged with AI. Can that mind? Can that mind influence or touch upon that direct knowing of existence? Because this is the realization. The realization is that I am. That literally is the Mahavacchya, the great mantra, the great open secret that I am. What does mind have to do with that?
Nothing. It is always available for every one equally every now, everyone knows that I am directly without thinking, without mind. The problem with the mind is that if it is overactive, it obscures it. And that beautiful, luminous mystery of aliveness gets obscured. Like the sunlight of spirit gets obscured by clouds. But only if the perspective is taken of the fake imagined identity of the me. If I am the little person in the little mind looking up and looking for the sun out there behind all those clouds. I'm fucked. You know, I'm completely on the mercy of the weather. And I have moments of glimpse when the mind stops and I can see the sun.
But I'm still the person seeing the sun. I am the person that is realized for one single second and looking at the sun or God out there far away, far, far, far away. Can't even touch it. This is wrong. This is not realization. I'm not the I created by the mind. I am the sun. I am the self shining luminous awareness of existence. Already right now, regardless of the clouds of the mind, mind can have ten thousand stories. No, no. You are the miserable, stupid person traumatized with bad childhood, with widow, whatever those stories are, appearances like Dean was just saying. They only exist because I am.
If the story will change, the mind will change, but the identity with the mind, the person with the created entity created, imagined by that narrative software. If that. Is disbelieved, is starved from attention, is truly questioned. Then it really doesn't matter what the mind does, whether it is demented or not demented, I still am the existence is there relaxing in that sense of existence. And I think Cornelius also explained it on the beginning beautifully, you know, relaxing the attention from that imaginary entity created in that software and identifying as that created imagine in imaginary entity, relaxing the attention out of it and realizing I'm here.
The less attention available for making that belief seem real. The less real it seems like believing in Santa Claus once unconditionally in fully. Yes, Santa is real. Then questioning and realizing that no, there's a guy dressed up is not real. The relaxed attention available for marveling at the existence, marveling at the miraculousness and mystery of being witnessing cognizing of the presence in which the conditioned mind comes and goes, comes and goes. Not believing to be the part of the mind or to be the entity created by the mind, to be the avatar imagined by the mind. But then again, who is not believing it? No one there is just I am without shape, form, identity, entity, time, space, dimensions, circumference, all of that is just the appearance, is the costume, is the mouthpiece, is a speaker.
This is speaker. I am the existence. Using that speaker to speak, using that cameras to look, I think I see. Cornell, you see, how the hand up would you like to unmute? And that the person personality is part of the flux. A person. A personality is a cloud. If you look at it. Seriously, it doesn't seem to change, but if you look away for 15 seconds, you look back, it's a completely different thing that people aren't fixed their entire lives as the one thing, except my dad, but it flows. So it's an interesting question. Permanent realization, like as though it was realized. And then you got a really hard whack on the head and you forgot that you realized would you have to go through the whole process of forming a new character who didn't know?
I think it would sort of be like eternal sunshine of the spotless mind where Jim Carrey gets his brain operated on. So he would forget about Clementine. And so he gets it. It's a success. He forgets all about it. But then he meets her again and falls in love with her again straight away. So I think it would sort of like it's automatic. So that the Turia state is called a state, but the Turia state is not a state because it contains waking, dreaming and deep sleep. Those three states are included in Turia, which is not a state. It's kind of everything like. And I look, the simple answer is like everything can't move.
If everything is everything, all space and all stuff in the space is included in. The word everything. So it can't move and it can't do anything. Like we talk about the absolute. It includes me like. If the absolute doesn't include me, then it's not the absolute because the absolute except Cornelius. So how could I pray to the absolute? How could I devote myself to the absolute? Because the myself that I'm talking about is part of the absolute. So I think Kapil, don't worry too much if you get enlightened, if you become realized, stay realized, don't worry about it. There is no you to do that.
There's no you to become realized. The realization that you are is already so is just the storytelling instrument, which is so fascinating, which is so distracting and is so amazingly juicy that keeps obscuring that very, very simple fact and the mind that you are. And that's why I'm saying, yeah, but that's boring. So what? There is an existence. So what? It doesn't feel ecstatic. There's not enough pleasure and there is no nothing to do here for me. So let's just overlay it with some clouds of drama. So I can have something to do, fix the problems, predict the dangers, protect the body. Breathing out, taking a box seat and watching that amazing instrument playing all its Malachyia on the screen of awareness and enjoying the hell out of it without needing to do anything about it, leaving it unaltered unmodified uncorrected mind going nuts, exploding like volcano, crying in joy or in sadness doing all of it.
and yet enough free relaxed attention curious childlike open attention to see and marvel wow i didn't know my mind can get that upset wow that's amazing does it mean that there is a me and it is real sure not come on i've looked there is no one there the the habit of getting upset over stabbing at all is there in the system does it prove the existence of a person nothing proves the existence of a person because there is no existence of a person there is an existence and the appearance of the person which sometimes is there sometimes is not but existence is always here and i think that's actually that's that's a good final conclusion for today and we're gonna be here in a couple of days and join us you if you care and uh thank you everyone for contributing and having fun primali says i'm a gem love you primali love you everyone have a wonderful