This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
Oh, now the pressure's on. So we were chatting about the conceptual image that we get in our head, a concept about what something is or what someone is. I've often had a thought that anything you put after is M and R is bullshit. It's just because that's just an idea. It's about a thing. It's a narration and new information can change that and different perspectives will change that. And it's just not accurate because it's a narration. I'm going to digress a little bit because we also went into this pointer that I shared with somebody else. You ever heard the story of the Buddha and the Buddha's story of the two arrows?
I like this story. And it's a little bit about, just kind of like, my ADHD has me all over the place, but it's just also about narration. I think that's what really is, this conceptual image is a narration. And this other thing with narration. So there was, the story is about the two arrows is that there's this one arrow and that's the one where you get shot and you're saying, ouch, there's this physical pain. It really hurts. The second arrow is that, oh my God, does that mean I have cancer or you hit me and what are we going to do about this? And that makes it a lot worse, much more uncomfortable.Second era.
So she liked that story that I shared with somebody else the other day. And I think it helps because you can see that you can have the physical pain, but the other pain of the, that is, that can be avoided. You might not be able to avoid the first era, but you can dodge the second one. What else was I babbling about was just the conceptual image. Years ago, I used to go to the Anthony Robbins seminars, and he was talking about the topic of judgment, which I think that's what a conceptual image is. We've made a judgment. I think judgment is a verdict. Anything after is M&R.
It's guilty or not guilty. And not guilty is also a judgment. So there's a judgment, right? But once we've judged something and we've got a conceptual image that this, they are this, we cannot see them as anything else. It's happening in my country actually a lot now. In the United States, if someone's a Republican and I'm a Democrat, I don't want to hear what they have to say because I already know. I've got my ideas and the Republican is this, this, this, this, and this. And it's the reverse. The Republicans, they don't want to hear what the Democrat would have to say because they already know.
And the listening gets turned off once that judgment has occurred and there's a decision of this is. We're not open now to anything else that might arise and show whereThat's inaccurate. Because we're not, the curiosity has been killed. We're not even looking for that. What else was I babbling about with this? Just, yeah. Conceptual image. It's kind of like a judgment, really. I mean, I guess once we go on, you have this idea of what somebody is, and then we don't take in the possibility that there might be something else or they might express differently. As I was dealing with a lawsuit with a family member, This understanding came in handy, even if there is no action figure here.
Just the understanding that if she had the exact same thinking or thoughts in the moment that I have, and the exact same chemistry, and the exact same programming, and the exact same everything, she would do exactly what I do. And how can I expect that? I mean, it's ridiculous to even think about that. So it's not possible. And the same is true. Like if I had her exact same thoughts, I would do exactly what she does. And what happens, I think, is we get an expectation, which is another fixed concept. That's bought into and that's when we get really upset is this this Expectation is taken to be a truth and then reality shows upAnd we're not, we get upset because our concept, what we thought to be true, the expectation, is reality is showing up, it's kind of showing us, no, this is not what's happening.
And then we fight against that and we get upset because it's not showing up as the mind. Said it should. And anyway, I don't know how non-dual this is, but it does at least help to understand the drama that can come about because of believed in thought. And thoughts aren't the problem. They're going to happen whether you want them or not, but it can be... Good if the skill arises to notice the thinking that's making me feel like that I'm feeling like crap So like I just love Bob's pointer of what's wrong with right now unless you think about it Anytime I get upset. I'm sort of a hedonist.
I like feeling good Okay, so So If I'm feeling upset, the way out is pretty fast. I'm just noticing that there's a thought happening. I know that the thoughts believed in that this should be something else. I thought I'd put that on your plane, man. Sorry. Yeah. Anyway. I don't know. I have a hard time rambling like other people do. Only when I'm like with a newbie who's never heard any of this stuff before.So this was fresh and new, but you've all heard this before. I don't know because I, because I, well, I guess I don't know. No, I don't. Maybe people heard it a hundred times but never heard it.
Maybe there's a chance to hear something for the first time now. Yeah. See, when Bob was rambling pointers, spiel, the same spiel, I heard it probably a few thousand times. But it's fresh and new every time you hear it. That's one thing. And then I would also hear people saying, shit, you know, I heard you speaking gibberish for five years. And now the same thing you were saying, it lands now. I hear it now. And your breakdown. And you gave a couple of breakdowns. I kind of like the way you think because I like to break things down. I was thinking about this in the bus stop, like why free will never meant anything to me or why I never blamed other people for stuff.
Because I always saw the universe as unraveling. So what was the point of like... Blaming people for being an unrighteous universe you know it's like you know if if you're blaming other people it's like you know they they're you know maybe they they're not very sighted and they're aiming at you know aiming at a target and but they're aiming at the wrong target because they can't actually see the real targetAnd they're getting really angry and upset and they're blaming, you know, other people themselves in the world because they're hitting the wrong target. You know, they're not, they missed the target. And you're like, but the target's here.
How can I possibly, you know, get in with your anger with you? You know, I'd like to point out that's not the target, but you might get more angry. So, you know, if you just see the universe is unraveling, how can you lay blame? It's not a thing. I'd like to point out that there's a difference between responsibility and response ability. Like, you know, there's responsibility, which is the ability to respond. And then responsibility, like just one word. That's ascribing doership. That's basically, that's totally saying there's a doer. You're responsible. So we don't get upset with a toddler. If a toddler picks up a gun and kills somebody, we don't give them life imprisonment, do we?
We don't even get angry with them. We get angry with somebody else. We go back to a previous cause like the parents or something. You shouldn't have left the gun out, right? But we don't get upset with them because we don't see them as responsible. Not even response able, really. But we don't have a blame. And because we're not blaming, we don't judge. But it was like when I first came to understand at least this idea of like I was so on fire with it.So I was like, oh, my God, this is game changing. You know, just this just because I always did believe in the the.
Oh, yeah, I have 100 percent responsible. That was my programming. You know, 100%. What if it's zero? You know, what a switch. Nobody ever even said that. No, 100%. You even chose your parents, they said. I'm like, well, prove it. Okay? Like, I don't know that I would have chosen my alcoholic narcissistic mother. You know what I mean? I might have chosen something else if it was a me that had a choice. You know, there's no choice. But I remember just being all excited about that. And Bob was just like, you are missing the point. You know, because I was like, there's nobody here to have a choice.
You know, none, nobody. And that's really, there's a believing in somebody. And they can do stuff. And that's, it's just really like a lot of people want to, I was having a conversation recently with a 17 year old who was like, now he was like really into pride, loves, wants to be proud. My thoughts about pride is there's no better way to say doer. You know what I mean? When we're proud of something, aren't we like saying that there's, oh, yeah, look what I did. You know? There's no ego without a thought, and there's nobody here. You can't cut it out of your head.At the same time, I think if we were to give it a definition, we could say there's egoing, right, or the appearance of that, of taking ourselves to be the doer.
That's all it is. And I think that's what pride is, is it's just a full-on, I did it or they did it. And so it's sort of almost the opposite of shame in a way, but not. It's like in a good way of shame, but it's still the same mechanism. You know, it's just the other side of the coin. It's the taking. Yeah. It's a lighter energy than shame, but it's still, yeah, it's still... Seeing you know an object where there isn't one you know feels good though you know it's nice i mean it does feel nice but it's just something to be aware of you know what i mean or to notice and i don't know i mean i haven't experienced a lot because i've just seen the universe as a universe really i haven't actually experienced pride much in my life but i understand what it is and i know what people are talking about i don't um and i think maybe i have felt a smidgen of it but yeah i it's not something I need to worry about letting go of because I don't really have it and I probably don't have the personality but like you two the sevens on the Enneagram that you know go for the buzz so I've got other issues and problems like I'm more like anxious about every future possibility you know yeah because this is a good point you know some personalities like sevens will go for a buzz right some personalities likeFear, whatever, the fear based, all the head triad is fear, but will get the buzz from feeling safe.
There's still a buzz, it's still a pleasure, it's just the processor because you know this very, very basic binary machine, which is wired for survival, which always in that basic bias prefers pleasure over pain. It goes towards pleasure and avoids moves away from pain because pain is that very simple. You can call it the different labels, but it's generally that sort of pull push dynamic, which is survival safety versus danger. Safety is sometimes the buzz, you know, like the adventurousness and the excitement and the intellectual high that comes from beauty is the attraction, is the same attraction as for other sort of settings in the processors, in the projectors, is the sense of safety, sense of absolute trust, sense of being.
Protected or you know like even the idea of future even though future doesn't really have any validity in the direct experience for the processor it is designed to keep that alive so it predicts the future Sorry, briefly. And the safety itself is all about not feelingthe uncomfortable emotions. So when you see like the movement away from the discomfort or the movement to the, you know, exciting distraction from the discomfort, you know, whichever kind of way it pings. Yeah, it's just not wanting to feel the uncomfortable feelings. The real avoidance of every, that's the one thing that's being avoided and all the safety, making efforts. Yeah, and then I finished.
Yeah, that's it. That's it. Avoiding, this was really, really good and precise description, you know, avoiding uncomfortable feelings because uncomfortable feelings would be an equivalent in that basic description of that binary description of, you know, pain, pleasure. That's the pain. That's discomfort. Yeah, it's just the wording. But we know kind of intuitively what it is. When you watch the animal... Observing stuff. Yes. Yeah, for me it's like observing my own reactions, that's how I noticed it. Yeah, it's like there was an uncomfortable feeling and then there was like this movement away or a movement into, dive into whatever addiction it is to not even have to think about it.
Yes, yes. I like it. I like it. I really, really like it. That's right, but I do really appreciate the precision of your wording. It is actually more precise to say.that this machine is wired to avoid uncomfortable feelings than to just reduce it to pain pleasure. But because that sort of pain pleasure already exists in the language, you know, in the psychology and everywhere, that's why I'm using it. But your wording is more precise. It really is. And it's more relatable in the direct experience. There are people actually who get buzzed. From experiencing pain and even, God forbid, for inflicting pain. That also happens. That is a serious damage in the whole processor, which does, you know, like, let's say you get a severely, severely abused child, raped and violated and violated.
Inflicting pain, give it... A sense of power i'm not completely powerless so now this dynamic pain pleasure is a little bit more corrupted and it's less precise than what you say avoiding uncomfortable feeling yes so even that person who was so severely damaged and is inflicting pain on others It's really avoiding uncomfortable feeling of being powerlessness. Sadist, psychopath, avoiding uncomfortable feeling. So this one is actually, yeah. Maybe we should adopt the precise vocabulary rather than reduce it.It's a pain pleasure. But you go back to the bus because you were, yeah. Both of you gave some breakdown examples that I might want to use in the future because that might be right for that person I'm talking to.
And that's what I like from you guys. You're really good with the animal stuff. You both sort of think in a similar way to me when you do those breakdowns. I really like to hear those because they are reflective of reality. It's nice. Go back to the breakdowns, Julia.I don't know which breakdown to start with. I mean, I do love the process of elimination. I mean, that's a breakdown, I guess, you know, is just this whole neti-neti thing of seeing what is by seeing what is not. It's a process of elimination. I'm thinking of this old... Biblical quote, know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
I used to do these Course in Miracles lectures and they said something that I thought was just sort of game changing. What are you freed from? Except for all the psychological suffering. That's what that's the only really believed in thought. The psychology, that's it. You're freed from the belief in thought when it's seen through. Okay? And now there's no more belief that it needs to be this or it should have been that or I am this or they are that. You know not that that but you know what i mean like we buy into this idea that someone or something is a thing we put it in a box you can see that you're in a tunnel and there is light in it yeah but when when you've seen the truth so the truth by the way can't be spoken yeah I mean, the moment we have a word attached to it, now we're like, because I'm breaking it down again, the word or whatever.
I just remember being at an event once.And they were talking about the word love. And it's a big, powerful word. Some people say you shouldn't use it because, you know, it's so big. And then other people are like, oh, it's meaningless. Or, you know, it's like that one word can mean different things depending on who's speaking, right? Or who's listening. So some people will see it. You know, some people will see it as, oh, romance. You know, I went to Russia and I was talking to Patch Adams about love with him. And he was like, oh, he's just going off about something really romantic. It was just like reading some Emerson poetry.
I don't know, just something poetic. I'm like, you're thinking about my kid. I'm disgusted. You know what I mean? What are you saying? You know what I mean? So his concept of love is really romantic. And another person's concept of love might be, I don't know, you have to really, you know, I just like this idea. I have a concept of it, too. I know it's bullshit, but I like it. Okay, I'm going with it. It's an allowing of something or someone to be as it or they are without needing to fix, modify, or correct. Have anything be different to the degree that we can.
Be at peace with what is. Yeah, I think being sort of precise about things and, you know, having at least a look is a step to not needing to look at all. So, you know, I watch a lot of these Asian dramas and they're excellent at, like, delving into the characters and the characters.looking at themselves and all of that but they don't look at a very zoomed out they don't have a very zoomed out look so the idea of all that all of that's toxic behavior this never comes up you know whereas if you look at like a sort of soap opera here you know people i haven't looked at one in decades but they might be talking about oh that was toxic behavior let's put that all together and these dramas they're like always trying to find a way out but they're not even considering that they're in a tunnel with a light at the end of it if you know what i mean um so they might be being you know highly skilled in many other ways but the actual release which is is really sitting with the emotions has is part of that process quite often isn't even known as part as an agenda that exists out there you know um so this sort of breaking things down showing examples, like animal examples, all this sort of stuff, being far more accurate.
What is it that I'm actually feeling? What is it that love is? You know, what is love for me? You know, being, going, describing the reality for yourself as much as possible, as often as possible, is a step towards not even needing to do that at all, you know. Yeah, and seeing how the mind functions. You know, that was what Bob was also always hammering down to people. The fascinating...game in the town to actually see your own processor at work how it creates the concept about everyone and it creates concept about oneself and this was one of the things that you you also mentioned julia in the morning you know if you have the concept about yourself of being worthless piece of shit and you believe it now the energy of belief comes and makes it real well there is a suicidal ideation that's the consequence of the concept imagine you having a concept about someone else to be your most wonderful best partner best friend wonderful faithful husband and this concept is right and of course you respond to that concept and you have the best relationship in your life and bob also had that idea that you know i love her i love her i love her but she said to not she said no to me the bitch you know how the concept can flip and can change and it changes based again on the machinery setting if you had warm and loving family likely you will project environment as safe if you had you know like really really hostile environment safety will be priority so now that husband maybe that perfect partner maybe he's cheating on me And now the processor will prioritize safety.
And now you're on a...a divorce spree and the poor guy doesn't really know what's going on why what happened oh no i can't i'm not gonna fucking tell you you know you idiot you don't pretend don't play games with me of course you know what happened and that is absolutely believed and as far as i know you know many people i spoke with they would have the experience like that in their life when they are faced with the reality of their concept being not as accurate as they would imagine it to be. And that is very liberating. It's just really liberating when you can see you're full of shit.
Yes. Okay. I'm like, you know, but I don't know. It's just kind of like, have you ever lost something? Like, okay, I don't have my glasses handy. They're next to you. But it'd be like, you know, I got, you know, this is more of a visual. Where are my glasses? Where are my glasses? Oh, my God. I'm like, you know, not even noticing I've got them in my head. You know? And then the moment you notice it, like, I don't know, I think I lost something the other day. I'm sitting in my son's car and I misplaced my keys. I'm flipping out for a moment.
Oh, my God. It's like cats. I'm trying to keep my friend's house and my car key here. I'm like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And then how long did it take to settle down? The moment I realized you're there, you know, but it was like all that's happened. It's like what was seen through, I guess, once I discovered them is I never really lost them. You know?And there they are. Here they are. They're ready. It's just immediate. It's once you see through it, it's fast. It's right here. We're back to here. You know, and this is, I think, I mean, I don't know. I had an insight a long time ago that this sense of well-being is always, always here.
If I'm interested in, like, just seeing beyond the believed in thought. It's always been. Beyond, just beyond this, no, not this. This sense of well-being is between each word, which I will sometimes say slowly put more space because it is irritating. It can also help you notice the space that's underlying, that all the words are showing up on. It's always here. And do I ever have a problem if I'm not going, this is what should be, or this is what is, or this is it? It's always like all the suffering, the upset, always. It's just a believed in thought. The other day I did that with my glasses, but I was actually wearing them.
Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. That's exactly it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. Right in front of your eye. Wear my glasses. Yeah. And they're here. And then you laugh, don't you? You know, you laugh when you see it. It's a release that happens. That's what laughter is. It's a letting go. But it's letting go. You know, when we're like, oh, yeah, duh. And I have so many people, they're looking for peace. I've been working at a nursing home lately, and they think it's somewhere out there. That's what's kind of sad, you know?is people don't understand that this is like, you know, I think it's so helpful to have children that I've had babies in my life, you know, that I can say, you know what, they can get really upset.
They do. They'll scream. They get upset. But they let go so fast, so effort. They don't, you know, they don't stay in that upset, you know. And there used to be a narration of, well, that's because they don't have responsibility, you know. That's it because there's nothing they have to do. That's why they're peaceful. But I didn't understand at the time that, you know, you really never did have responsibility, actually. You know, so all that because the because story that I had, no, it's actually there's a better because it's because there's nobody here making a claim of what should be. What I am, they don't yet have that concept, that fixed image of anything after is M&R or even when is.
They don't even have that. That's freedom. You know, we started out that way and it's always here. And that's just sort of kind of liberating, kind of game changing when there's like You know, I can get bought into the nightmare. I sometimes like to watch movies with my husband.And I don't like to watch the horror movies too much, even the action adventure, because I want to like laugh when I'm trying to relax. But when we do watch a movie, if it's like an adventure, I'll like, you know, it's more of a visual, but I'm going to cut off your circulation and think I'm a voice, but I got strong hands and I'm...
You know, and I'm freaking out and it's a movie and I know it's a movie. But then I do that when it'll happen. I know this is a movie. This is a really fun dream that I'm like sharing. We're dreaming together. I'm aware that there's a buying into it, but it only takes a second to go. Yeah. That's the thing, you know, buying into it doesn't mean that there is a person. No, nobody does that. That is buying. Nobody buys into it. Yeah, that's the beauty. You know, when Bob said, you have a concept about everyone, and everyone has the concept about you. And nobody's doing it.
And you have the concept about yourself. Which concept is right none of them obviously but it doesn't mean yes that there is someone producing concept i remember it was one question that i asked bob so don't you have concepts and he says well but of course the concepts comes come up of course they come up you know when the person walks in the door the concept come it's a human it speaks english it doesn't you know like obviously it's not a tree it's not a brick you said the concepts are just part of the operational systemBut are they correct? No. So my concept about you, your concept about your friend or your child or whoever, none of it is true.
That's why Bob would always say, don't trust anyone, anyone, because those people that you see, that you consider your spouses, your parents, your friends, you don't see them. You're looking through the lens of perception, your own conditioning. You see the conceptual image. Don't trust them because you don't see them. You may have very, very precise and accurate conceptual image, especially, as you say, you're breeding children. You know them all their life, day in, day out. Well, yes, the image had a really, really good time to formulate quite accurate, probably the best, you know. The more data you put in the processor, the more outcome, the more precision of the outcome.
The longer you know someone, you know, I know my mom all my life. The image is still there. Well, I do trust her. I don't really trust her or my image of her. Bob said, don't trust anyone. But unconditionally and absolutely trust life. Yeah, that's where I have trust. Will move these people, your children, your mothers out of your life. It's not because the image is not because of the action. It's not because they were guilty or you were guilty. There's no one anywhere. There's no one anywhere. But if life does that, moves that wave, I rememberTanya describing, you know, that this hurricane came and just swept her out of one chapter of her life, broke her to another.
And that's how, you know, it happens. And trust life because it will prove the perfection way, way greater than any human intelligence and the limited processor concepts can ever have. And if you've only ever seen life as something unfolding, there's like trust is absolutely meaningless because, you know, yeah, it's like having a fight club, you know, with an imaginary fight partner when... It's just this life happening. There's no, life has no destination. Life has no blueprint. Life has no pathway. Life has no, you know, if anything, it's possibly just going in towards a vacuum. That's the only thing I can think it might be doing.
And that's a great point because, you know, even the idea of trusting life subtly assumes that there is an I surrendering to life or trusting to life. There is no one there. And yet, naturally, if there is something happening that is discombobulating or is objecting to the images or is incomprehensible, naturally there is an urge to make sense of it because that machine, again, works to preserve the coherence. Makes sense. This is a meaning-making machine.Surrender that. Relax. Don't object to anything. Just be the space. Be the presence. Be the witnessing. Be the nothing. Yeah, there is no great perfection. There is just that not, there is that release of that behavior.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, beautiful. But I do like that, you know, you always contribute a great value, like even trust, you know. Well, perfection, that's a concept too, you know. That's a concept. And at the same time, I just, I like, you know, was it Bob brought up the great perfection of non-conceptual. Non-conceptual. Non-conceptual. Ever present. You know, presence awareness. Like just this, nothing else. That would be perfection, actually, because now we're not going into this is. I am. They are. You know what I mean? Now we're not into the concepts. You know what I mean? We're going, we're, we're, you know what I'm saying?
Yeah, that, that in a way would be the great perfection because, but we started out that way, didn't we? You know? Yeah. Yeah. And we, a long time ago though, I just kind of thought about this with kids and all that. We can see them as little babies is perfect, don't we? You know, perfect. Look, 10 fingers, 10 toes. And as long as I've got 10 fingers and 10 toes, that means I'm perfect. Okay. Okay, good.But at some point we get to be a little bit older, you know, and now we're like, now, now Jimmy is not listening to me. Now he's disobedient. Now he's, you know, a bad boy.
And then like somehow like they go from perfect to now there's a concepts of what should be. You know what I'm saying? You could say that the great perfection is no equals no judgment. Yeah. Yeah. No thought. No thought arises. Yeah. No judgment happens. There's no perfection necessary. It's just, yeah, no, it's just what it is. And that is the great perfection. That is. You don't even judge it as perfect. Right. Because there is no concept. Right. That's what it says. Non-conceptual. Non-conceptual awareness. So without the concept, you can't even say it's perfect or imperfect. Right. But now the concept arises in that which is prior to concepts.
So that non-conceptual awareness is like, you know, the awareness of space, which you don't conceptualize it, but you don't deny it. It's there. Or awareness of the temperature in the room or just awareness of existence. Nobody even has to put it to words. And it is there. That's the non-conceptual awareness. And on that, descriptions, processing, creating conceptual images about the world, about the politics, about religions, about your children, about your spouses, about your friends, arises in that non-conceptual, ever-fresh presence.awareness and now standing or resting in that box seat of that non-conceptual ever fresh space like sky like awareness and watching what it is gonna come up with oh I love this oh I hate this oh I'm afraid of this oh I had a nightmare and there's the eye that shows up in every single one of them so there it is nobody's doing that nobody does that and at the same time it's very interesting to notice that that that's all that's happening every time there's like this suffering that's happening whenever it shows up oh What's the common denominator?
Isn't there always a me? You know, it's an idea. It's a thought that doesn't exist. It's just a concept that's, again, that's bought into. There is none here, really. Like, you know, it's not here. Unless it shows up and how it's believed in but it's it was about the feeling i actually love i would love dean if you know julia you have such a good questions you are actually such a good interviewer you know you usually come up with those questions you know what about the next question here okay just you can read these He's like, no, not now. Oh, yeah. All right. Okay. But I still want to hear you interview Julia because she's so good at that.
So James says, okay, I think it was, oh, yeah, it was, oh, wow, we have quite a contribution. And thank you, guys. Thank you, guys, on Zoom, and thank you, guys, on Facebook.some on on facebook so gioti says hi cut on everyone where does one draw the line between no one is in control and their actions and taking stance again against wrongdoing it's beautiful again drawing the line happens you can discover how the line is being drawn and also how that line is actually changing as the concepts are changing as the experiences are changing you know as the data get updated in that processor the drawing the line changes you know like when is it acceptable to kill animals and eat them or when is it acceptable to uh you know like whatever subscribe to euthanasia and all those other lines you can see how the processor is affected by by the past experiences conditioning influences from every single thing and it draws the line in a different ways but and and the stance against wrongdoing even the definition of the right doing and the wrong doing even that is a concept is based in concept it's a beautiful question and we can explore it further and thank you for that question i think i'm gonna happily explore it also in the zoom meetings because that's uh that's really lovely and we actually nobody draws a concept like nobody's done that either no no so you can't even draw a line nobody can see it happens it's showing up but nobody does that Totally.Yeah, it would all be inaccurate.
You know the story about the war that's coming and so the guy sends off a... Yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I don't... Yeah, everything, every line that is ever drawn, what's right, what's wrong, you know? You're not going to get it right. No, it's impossible. It's a concept. And Emmanuel says, morning, please save me from me. Oh, I could be your lifeline. Stay with you till the sunrise. Giotti, see Rumi's famous poem about any ideas of wrongdoing, rightdoing. There is a field. I'll meet you there. Or as Byron Katie says, who needs God when we have your opinion? Who needs God when we have your opinion?
Which concept is right? Of course, it's mine. And then Emmanuel, a Jyoti says, oh no, there we have another one. James says, when the action is harmless, there is no wrongdoing. And what about when the motivation is malicious, even if the action is harmless? And what is malicious again? You know, even a sadist soothes himself by inflicting pain. Those, you know, you can't draw the line.And Jyoti also says, it's the absolute and relative aspect that is quite a struggle to make sense of. Beautifully put. And the sense-making machine, which is mind. Never ever get it right is the struggle that you can sit back relax and watch you can watch that struggle and enjoy it because the content of the struggle is completely imagined that's the beautiful dream that's the movie that when julia says you know watching a horror You know, that's the show.
And Emmanuel says, yes. And James, try to make sense of breathing without breathing. Who can make sense anything? And Jyoti says, it all collapses. And James, life is breathing prana. Is the life energy everything yeah absolutely you can see the unfolding you can see how drawing the line how making sense how picking sides having opinions all of it happens and you can just relax and watch the show watch your mind see how it functions see what it does And that's the best game in town. And thank you. I've read all. And you grill, Julia, please. I don't have anything to grill. And then John says,He's a wonderful servant and a terrible master.
Yeah. A while ago. Exactly. I was thinking about what you were saying before about, you know, Bob, you have a concept. So there's often a concept about maybe people like Bob that he would never have a concept. Yeah. Okay. That's a concept that should be maybe blown out of the water. Yes. Okay. That the thoughts never show up. That means that he lives without thinking. Which is not true because I think, but you, so to say, but so I've heard him say, oh no, he just, the point is like when somebody says, I don't have a thought, I don't, I don't think. What they're saying is not that the thoughts don't arise, but they're not doing it.
Okay, there's no doer. So that's what they're saying when they say, I don't think. But it can sound kind of like, oh, that means that you never have thoughts happening when you say you don't think. But to be more clear, it's saying, oh, no, thoughts, I'm not doing it. Okay, that's, that's, there's no. Yeah, well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Taking credit for the thought. Yeah, there's no credit. Oh, I thought that doesn't arise. That's all that happens. Yeah. Yeah. They honest, they say thought happened. Thought has been discovered. Like Bob would answer that question when people would ask Bob, do you have thoughts? And he says, well, thoughts are right.Do I have them?
There is no I to have them. Right, right, right. They still arise. Just like sweat arises on the skin, saliva arises in the mouth. I'm not making the sweat happen any more than I'm making the thoughts happen. That's exactly right. I'm not doing any of it. And that, again, is just so liberating. You know, you're off the hook and so are they. You know, everyone's off the hook. There's no hook. And nobody can have one. Nobody can. That's the freedom. That was something because I never really believed in free will. Like I didn't, I thought there was an I, but. That you know it took me like a few minutes here and there over a week to just have a look and oh yeah well i don't see one and there might as well not be one as be one so who cares you know it wasn't wasn't that actually a problem that wasn't a big hurdle for me um the bigger hurdle is all the reactions of discomfort that are still you know there and releasing takes place that reduces that but that that's the big you know blockage here um and like you the bone mine's gone on somewhere else i don't quite know what i was saying um sorry what were you guys saying that i was wanting to respond to i would i think i was just talking about What was she talking about?
Things, just thoughts, you know, bought into the doership, the idea of a me that can be. What about everyone off the hook?That's gone, sorry. That's all right. That's mine. Mine does. Luckily you have anything. I don't believe so. No, I did enjoy, Julie, what you were saying at the start about, the concepts we have of each other and how that, how you can instantly, discount what's right in front of you or like what's happening right now because you've got this overlay of a concept and it can be relatively simple to see when we're when we're having thoughts that oh this thought is you know not my this is not me or this this thought is not true Although it can be a little more challenging to realise that these impressions we build up about people are themselves just subtle thoughts that we're holding onto in the background.
And you come through and... it's more subtle because it's a pre-existing thought that's kind of like baked into your response. And so you can miss it and do exactly as you say, where you discount someone or you assume you know someone because...you're subtly identifying with a thought which says this person is like this and this person thinks that. And it's, yeah, it's a more, it feels like a more nuanced, nuanced kind of investigation. Is really looking and seeing people as they are in directly in front of you instead of as you believe them to be um yeah it's a and it i think you said like you know you weren't sure if this is non-dual i think it's entirely non-dual it's like that's that's the essence of of non-duality is is not attaching to thought and not being identified with thought.
And like say thoughts happen and thoughts happening in and of themselves isn't duality. That's just what is. It's the identification with the thought that... Gives the arising appearance of duality. Yeah. And because then there's me and whatever the thought is talking about or directing to, and they're by definition separated if you're believing that. Yeah, just... It's such a simple and... Poignant practice to meet people as they are with no preconceived thoughts. No, I think they want.though sometimes I was talking with my kid, you know, and he feels misunderstood. Like, you know, like I need to kind of at least you don't know. And also I'm just thinking back.
My own experience, my mother saying she loved me. And I'm like, you love concept of what you had about me. You're loving whatever, because you didn't even talk to me in years. You know what I mean? So you don't know that I'm maybe completely different than I was when I was 17. You know, or when you knew me back then. So you're loving maybe the idea of what you had of me, but maybe not what I am. I don't even know what I am. Actually, I'm 59 years old and I'm still getting to know whatever this is. I don't even know. But my kid was wanting, like, feeling like, oh, I don't know him.
I'm like, I don't know me. You know, I don't know anything anymore. I'm still discovering things. So I think people want you to go, like, maybe agree with their own self-concept. You know, they're like, okay, this is what I am. You should know what your concept of what I am should match mine. Right? And... Mine might be full of shit too. I mean, they're both full of shit. They're both full of shit. They're both full of shit. They're both full of shit. So, you know, but even the thought that it should match is full of shit. You know what I mean? That your concept should match mine.
It's all full of shit. I mean, but just seeing that it's all full of shit. It's also just like, oh. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because I had a friend ask me.I was telling them about an experience that I had of... I don't know what you have. It was a psychedelic experience. And so he's like, okay, I need to know, does the creator exist? And I was like, that is the, how could I possibly answer that question? Because I have no idea what you mean when you say creator. Like, and it's kind of laughable. I'm like, if I say yes or no, you're in no different position.
Like, how is a thought going to help? And if I say yes, is the belief then that there's some, you know, puppet master up there pulling the strings? And that's the inevitable problem with concepts or trying to... You know, portray truth through concepts is, it's useless because the concept can never be the truth. which is why it's always referred to as pointers because you have to look for yourself where we're pointing. And if someone says to you, God is real, that's not a pointer. That's just a statement of fact that's as useless as a cat is real or, yeah, Bigfoot is real, which he is.
And that's sort of recognizing that as like the freeing version of, not communicating, but then the jailing version, not communicating is people who just want to be understood without that communication to attempt to, well, what do you actually mean? Because if they have to actually communicate how they really feel, then they might have to say something vulnerable, they might get rejected, and it's just a safety issue. So when I watch all these Asian dramas, you know, like the Chinese one, watched a character where you know she just well you have to know why I'm angry and that's you know you you know basically and and she has the geek boyfriend who's a scientist and he goes but that's unreasonable and she's like well now I'm even more angry with you I'm not going to talk to you for a few days now but but um And then, you know, within the culture, he then has to find a way of making her right and, you know, being, you know, living with her unreasonable, you know, because, yeah, if we start expressing, if we start trying to communicate, you know, it might...
Get rejected in some way and that wouldn't be safe and so that's the sort oflike in the bubble, very much in the bubble effort to not communicate, whereas recognising that communication is going to fall down at the other end is the freeing version of not communicating. Dean, we have a question here for you from James. Question to Dean. Who deserves peace? That's not even the last thing I'm going to ask. Have a look. All right. Okay.Yeah, well, deserving, you know. Maybe I'll just start from the very start, if that's all right, because, you know, this is non-duality and this meeting is all about non-duality. One essence, patterning, shaping, forming, appearing as everything.
And in that everything, you know, there's this thing of perception and what is perceived and automatically, you know, perception creates conceptualization. So there's a concept of what is actually appearing. So this non-dual one essence is the one thing appearing to be perceived from this body mind. So automatically there's a sense of like, oh, separation. And that concept, what is that concept? You know, I see there's a tree. As soon as I learn what a tree is, How will I actually see a tree again? How is it even possible to actually see a tree for what it is without any concept? Because there's a vehicle here that's been conditioned by the universe from the very, you know, food thatmy grandparents ate to what happened the moment my mum met my dad and everything.
And everything, we could go into the details of, you know, social and economic and genetics and biochemistry and something on the other side of the world that influenced that particular... Gust of wind that, you know, it's endless what has actually influenced this thing. And that is clearly seen as like there is no one doing that. There is no one has influenced this machinery to perceive and to conceive and to conceptualize in the way it's actually doing it. So in that sense, automatically, there's no doer. So there's an appearance of thoughts. So as you started this whole meeting talking about this sort of the way we perceive and the way the concept is constructed, you know, you've got a concept of me, I've got a concept of me, I've got a concept of you, which one is true, which one is real?
Obviously, there is no reality in a concept as such. If reality is that which never changes, you can see that there's infinite perceptions, infinite concepts. But this is also not to, you know, we're not describing, non-duality is not a non-perceptible, it's not the absence of perception either.like the acknowledgement that perception is happening and there's actually no one doing it. And the perception itself is like a God-given, like universal-given, life-given thing that's allowing the experience to even unfold, even experience to unfold. What was the question? So I'm getting to the question. Okay. Oh, and... Is there a... So, yes, exactly. So this is a long way around, yeah?
Yeah, I think. But it's sort of bringing everything to the basics of what this is and what we're doing. And then, so in that conceptualisation, there's embedded, like I think you said, I can't remember the word you used, but embedded and implied that there's me, myself and I, like it's embedded in the thought structure, in the narrative. And this, what you were actually pointing to earlier was like psychological suffering. Pretty much like like there's raw um perceptions and then there's conceptualization and then and then there's um all these the narrative the the self-narrative the self-talk that i'm doing it that i'm controlling it that i'm um in control or I'm the doer, I'm not the doer.
Or that they are. Or that they are, of course. Yeah, that there's them. It's kind of the same thing. Yes. Sorry. Yes, no, no, no, keep going.I didn't mean to interrupt. I'm just timing in. There's just the same thing. It's the same mechanism to believe that there's a them doing it as it is to believe that there's a me doing it. It's still a belief and thought that there's a doer. Yes. So back to the actual, to the quiz. If you can see all these mechanisms at play, who is the seer of the mechanism? Who is the observer of the mechanism? There's no observer. There just is a process that's appearing.
And in that process that's appearing, everything is. So, and in that, without the belief in the concepts, or without thinking that somehow, oh, there's a little me orchestrating, controlling, changing, moving, all of a sudden, the... That peace is already there. It's like the substratum of everything and everyone and everything is peace without the concept. There's no good or bad without if the thinking makes it so. So there is actually no who as such because the who is the narrative. There is just the underlying structure without the belief in the concepts that have been overlaid on top of perceptions and views and perspectives, the endless flow of perspectives, and the structure of everything.That is no longer believed to be the truth.
So there is actually no who anymore, but the piece is that which allows this whole existence to exist. And it's like the, I don't like the word awareness, but it's often used. It's like the pure awareness or the... Awareness with non-conceptual awareness obviously without a concept or it's really it's sort of wrong to even say without a concept it's that without a believed in concept may even be more accurate like there's no there there is no one there to to to to grasp because a concept of a me is a concept so it's like a But there is no, I'm not even, there's no implication, and don't get this wrong, that there's a witness of the witnesser and a grand observer of the observer and all this kind of rubbish.
There is just immediately this nowness. And in that nowness, in this immediate moment, there is that, it's called peace, but you could call it almost the unmanifest, almost the... pure, the stillness in which everything explodes into being, but they're simultaneously and it's all immediate and it's all now. And in that is all the movement of the whole show, the whole dream we call life. And conceptualise on top of that is a narrative. On top is not even accurate either. Simultaneously as well.is the narrative, is the talk. Me, myself and I, I've done this, I've moved that. I can move, change, improve, modify and correct. So like even in answer to some other about good and bad and wrongdoing and also like doing something that's considered good.
There is no place for this in non-duality. So what is considered good now can be considered bad tomorrow. What is considered really good by 90% of the population could be considered incorrect by 10% of the population or could be considered wrong in 10 years from now when it's looked back at. There is no absolute right or wrong. There's endless colours of right and wrongness in the appearance of the dream. Can I babble a little bit at least about this concept of deserving? I mean, let's look into that. What does that mean? Like when we're saying something, isn't that a condition that certain things must happen in order for blank to occur?
So who is deserving peace? Well, first off, peace is what he's saying is already here. It's always been. It's the substratum. It's the core, right? So who's deserving it? Everybody and everything. You know what I mean? And there's nobody here. The who is also wanting to define an entity. You know what I mean? It's saying that there's somebody here.that there is no who, okay? And the deserving, again, there's another condition. People seem to think that there needs to be a whole bunch of things that have to happen, and then you've earned it. Okay, you went to so many years of ashrams, right? You know, and that's it's because you did that.
Right. If now I have to do many years and then maybe, you know, because people say that to me, I've had people say, oh, well, you did 10 years of the Sedona method and went to all those retreats. And but this is somebody who did the same number of retreats as me. Okay, so how come I get it and you don't or whatever? It's not, it has nothing to do with that. Okay, it's, it's not, nothing to do with like, it must be or X, Y, and Z must happen. That's just another condition. There's another concept also. It's a concept. It's believed in. Me. So there's a whole lot of believing that's, sorry.
No, no, it's not the mind. A lot of believing happening. I believed in me. I believed in a concept. I believed that there's a condition. This has to happen. There's just a whole bunch of little subtle beliefs that's just going right into this. And yeah, deserving. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, that's actually, that's really nice. And I also say,Thank you to James for inviting Dean to conversation. And also, if anyone on Zoom would like to unmute and say something and contribute something, you know, you're most welcome. Just raise the hand or just put the camera on or just unmute and speak. Was it? Who was it? Oh, yeah.
I don't know. Okay. Anyway, actually, yeah. Someone is... David, did you want to say something? I see you're on mute. Or maybe you're just on mute by... Oh, sorry, no. Yeah, was I on mute? Yes, yes. Do you want to contribute something? Ask a question or make a comment? Not really. I'm just listening, which is fantastic to hear, everyone. But, yeah, not really anything to say. At this stage but yeah thank you yeah okay thank you thank you i will eventually say something but i'm just not sure what i'll be saying that's the that's the way that's an attitude of openness being completely open and just seeing discovering what question comes up what comment comes up and not you know like just even if there is sense of like controlling it or guarding it just watching it as another appearance that's that's lovely that's lovely when when it's ready when a question or comment is ready Yeah, and if there is even a reservation ready, just, yeah, take it.Sit and look.
Comes up, maybe unmutes, maybe speaks up, maybe objects. Lovely. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And I actually, I really, really enjoyed, I mean, I'm enjoying absolutely everything about it. It's always a lovely, lovely occurrence to explore the natural state. That's what we do. We explore, we explore questions, explore pointers. And it does have the same effect as it used to do on Bob. It would just invigorate looking at the way the mind functions, project the world without engaging, believing any projections. The energy isn't lost in expectations. It isn't lost in going with the intricacies of the dream, identifying with the intricacies of the dream. And it doesn't actually take any beauty out of the dream.
Appearance is still appearing. It's still colorful. It's still intense. It's emotionally intense. Like I love, you know, the way Tony said, avoiding uncomfortable feelings. That used to be, and this was like almost 11 years ago when I had my one and only individual meeting with Bob. And you mentioned it, Julia, you know, I want other people to have the same concept of me as I have of me. And they don't, you know, my ex-boyfriend, he had a concept of me. Didn't match yours. Didn't. He saw the ship.officer a smart ass i wasn't this wasn't me it felt like he's missing me entirely he can't see me like why could you see me like i don't even wear a uniform why do you see me in this way because i had a good luck i had this and not sharp enough mind and the job and the money that was that was his image of me but how about the fragility, the sensitivity, the fear of rejection, the avoidance of uncomfortable feelings.
This was my concept of me. I was, in my own belief, in Tony's language, it's really precise and I like it much more than my own language. And the I like it is just the preference arising. There's no one. Anyway, the idea of me being the emotional self, the core, avoiding uncomfortable feeling, not wanting to be seen as someone so rigid and so... Oh, mechanical and ugly ships of it. Come on. It's like a cartoon character. I'm so much more than that. I'm sensitive. I'm deep. I have a heart. I have fears. I don't want, you know, the vulnerable self. Avoidance of uncomfortable feelings is it really what I am is it reallywho I am?
Is that avoidance of uncomfortable feelings always present? Is it present when I'm watching a good comedy and laughing my butt off? No, but I'm still here. Is it present when, you know, Bob's beautiful question, what's wrong with right now if I don't think about it and the thinking is all the way off? Is it still present here? There is nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong. But I'm still here. Avoidance of uncomfortable feelings shows up on the screen when it's necessary for navigating the whole intricacy of the dream. This is a dream character. It has to survive in the dream settings, just like the dream character that I had at night, actually.
When I had a nightmare, I was dreaming about some villain, some murderer going into the house and murdering people. And I managed to defeat it twice, but it was showing up in a different costume. It was a different man. Eventually, I managed to get out of the house and I started calling the police and I was explaining the policeman the whole occurrence. And as I was explaining it to him, I realized that, hey, wait a minute. It just doesn't really feel right, does it? It just kind of feels like a dream. Maybe I'm just sorry, guy. Maybe I'm just wasting your time. Maybe this is all a dream.
This was in the dream. I was dreaming that I was describing the dream and telling the policeman. And as I was describing, realizing it was a dream.But this, how different is this now? This is the dream also. And the dream character belongs in that dream. And the dream character fully experiences the pains and the pleasure of the dream. And all of that is appearance is known. The character appears just as much as the whole room appears. This room appears in consciousness with this body appearing in the consciousness, hearing itself speak. It all appears in the same awareness. Nothing can be separate. No room, no character, no voice, no pattern of avoiding uncomfortable feeling can be separate from that whole space of appearance, from that whole dream.
Is there a need for a me to be somehow separate? Yes, there is a perspective. Yes, I could put that camera is installed here. So it watches from that perspective. On the Zoom here, the camera is in different locations. So it watches from that perspective. We could include another camera there in that corner and it will give us another perspective of the room. That's just the perspective like Dean was saying. All the perspectives are also arising within the dream, within the whole field of consciousness, within that non-conceptual awareness. And wow, seeing the whole show.with all that multitude of conceptual images fleeting flickering around with the mind creating the ideas and bob would say mind won't stop unless you get alzheimer's disease or stroke or something like that It will do whatever it is designed to do, just like the kidney will do whatever it is designed to do.
And when it stops, well, it might be a remedy for it, or it might just the whole machine may expire, the whole projection. And in 100 years, probably all of those machines will not be here, or maybe less than that. And who cares? There's no future. Yeah, it's like the Matrix with no body in the pod. That's a beautiful metaphor. The Matrix is brought up a lot, you know, in these, like, a lot of communities as far as discussions of waking up and stuff like that, right? I was thinking about the prison, you know, the prison of belief. I have a painting at my house, which I really love.
It was done by Jim Carrey. And it's got these, it's really colorful. It's got these prison bars. You know, it's got really beautiful colors, but there is one black and white image of a butterfly. But everything else is color. And it's hands on this prison bar.And I just, I love this painting, but it says, and in that moment, he was freed from the prison of becoming. You could also be a prison of, there could be a prison of I am. Now we have this idea. It's still, it would be, if I were to ever meet Jim Carrey, I would say, if there's just one thing that make it look a little bit more perfect, is if you could have just like sort of misty, literally sort of translucent, see-through thoughts, words, ideas, concepts on those bars.
Because that's all they are. That's all it is. That's what they were talking about when they said the gateless gate. You know, what do you mean? How could there be a gateless gate? What gate? What do you mean? The gateless gate. There's no gate. It's a thought. It's a word. It's an idea. It doesn't exist without a thought. It's still an idea. That's it. It's a belief. That's it. And it's that. It's that. Cageless cage. Oh, yeah. Of course. Sorry, that's true. That was the neighbor. Yeah. Yeah. That idea, you know, like James actually sent here a message. I can't actually put a heart on this.
That when Dean was explaining, are you trying to explain the peace that passes understanding? Lovely comment. Yes, that's the joy of that whole meeting. Grasping ungraspable. Dwelling in that which is ineffable and beyond descriptions, beyond words, beyond language.What a joy. What a poetry. What a joy. Yes, James. And thank you for being with us. And thanks, Dean, for the pointing also, James says. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's a joy of the impossible task that no one does. It just happens. And it brings a lot of... A lot of lightness and joy. It's a celebration. Yeah. And I just dropped it down, Dean, the cage is a cage.
Yes, yes, yes. In case I ever put it in some writing. The cage is a cage. Well, it's a cageless cage, but it's just, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a good metaphor, but it's like that's really, I think we want to be bucks. It's like, I don't know, have you ever heard the story about if you want to build the perfect prison, you have the prisoners make it and they make it in such a way that it's like. It's, you know, they don't even know they're in prison. You know what I mean? They don't even know they're incarcerated, so they're never going to try to escape.
You know, what you don't know you're in. But we're incarcerated, I think, when we're attached. You know what I mean? When we're believing. It's really, it's like, it's a belief. That's the prison, is the believing. Okay? We don't even know we're in it.You know? Yeah. Yeah, like I was saying at the beginning, yeah, we don't even know we're in a tunnel, let alone a light at the end of it. And, you know, that's, yeah, the perspective of many and everyone to some degree in certain areas, you know. Yeah, isn't it amazing, like, really? It's absolutely stunning. Who or what or to whom was this gateless gate, cageless cage even created?
Like no one actually did it. No one actually created, like life itself can seem to construct, it's all seeming, you know, seem to construct this cage with these bars and each bar has got a different, you know, construct of belief. And then somehow there's a seeming character inside a seeming cage hearing a seeming message. Ah! And all of a sudden there's a seeming recognition and then all of a sudden the scene sort of seems to alter slightly and then the bars start to dissolve. It's freaking crazy. Seem, seem, seem, seem, seem, seem. Yeah, yeah. And another way of explaining and describing and sharing, you know, and exploring the whole meeting is seeing it like all in terms of energy.
And every movement, every thought, every... Breath, everything is nothing expressing as energy and the energy takes on all these different forms, all these different patterns, all these different sequences and explosions of, you know, colours and sounds and meaning and desires and concepts and neuro...and infinite planets and... And a switch and flip and it's all gone. Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's like I was... Yeah, I got caught up in the last week 24-7 building one of these like games online where you create these, you know, worlds, the castle one. And then like about a week and a half later, my opera updates and it's lost, it's gone.
And like, oh, there's the person being chucked up on the shore again at the beginning, you know. And yeah, no, it's a lot more acceptance this time around. There's a lot more, the transition to like it being completely meaningless was a lot quicker, put it that way, than, you know, a few years ago when the same thing happened. Isn't it incredible how this processor constantly updates? It updates, you know, it learns. It's an incredible machine that actually learns through every experience. Like you could look again at the animal and you see when the animal is like, look at this beautiful cat. It's very, very timed, safe, trusting people.
The other one also. One event, one trauma, and that cut will completely, its processor will completely rewrite the view of the dream. And it will start hiding or biting. One event can totally screw the whole processing machine. And then it will take a moment and it will settle down again. The factory settings will change.You say, you know, it would annoy you so badly. And now it very, very quickly lets go. It probably learned that getting angry at the machine wouldn't take it anywhere. It doesn't win you. You know, like I was working once with a lady who used to have this, I wasted my potential type of a story.
And she hated it so badly that she would punish herself in thousand ways. To spare God from the horrible heavy work God is so busy answering all the prayers so she will do the God's job for him by destroying and humiliating herself so that God doesn't have to do that What an incredible, incredible conceptual representation of the world and the God and herself. She snapped out of it. We questioned it repeatedly and it just, eventually we laughed how absurd. I've seen also in Biden-Katie schools, people who would beat their children to the point of bleeding. And then surprise, surprise, those children ended up on the street or in jail.
But she had to do that. She loved them. She was a true caring mother. If she didn't, she was a black, big black lady with alcohol addiction, living on the streets. If she didn't do this thing, how she could possibly prepare those boys?for the hostile world of white policemen in America. She did it with all her heart on the hand, the conceptual image. And when she saw it, the scream, the primal scream of absolute devastation, when she saw that this happened through her the upset and the betrayal and the pain that she caused those kids were far far beyond any pain they could ever experience from some strangers from the policemen from the system wow what an incredible show Seeing how it happened, she only saw first part and that was like suicidal, that scream.
Further on, Byron Katie shown her that she wasn't the doer even of that. She did not choose that concept. That was also a setting that has been installed through learning, in the learning machine, through imitation. Who in the same mind would choose there's no one there it is self-correcting mechanism self-updating mechanism self-organizing universe it's so helpful to when it's seen though that you know just at least all right so There's both free will and no free will. There's the illusion of free will. Okay, so there is that pure.or they're appearing that there's a choice. There's that. And just when it's just seen, there's a guy who is a neuroscientist and his name is like, I don't remember his name right now.
He's a California Stanford University professor. I just love it when science comes in because there's something how somehow that seems to add validity to things. I don't know. It does because just the belief system. Again, but they're willing to look into it. That's like part of it. It's the most common religion nowadays. Yeah. Science. Yes. Yeah. Well, it's like it's a willingness to investigate. That's what's nice about it. But it doesn't take the observer effect into consideration. That's true. It's for all kinds of years. But the society seems to have respect for this. You know what I'm saying? Like it did for Christianity. Yeah. Well, they like this, but this guy is saying that it's really this belief in free will that now we don't even look to the prior causes.
We don't look to, well, maybe, you know, like the mother was actually trying to protect the child. You know what I mean? Because of this, this, this, this. We don't go into any of that. We just kind of. Write them off, you know what I mean? Without even considering the possibility that they didn't do it. There's no, they couldn't have done it.And anything else, you know, seeing that nothing else could happen. That's, yeah. Well, actually, that was a 5MEO experience for me, really, because I was doing a pretty hardcore psychedelic. And it was just the insight that arose was just like, oh, my God, nothing could have been different.
There's no, nothing could, and I don't know, has anything to do with non-duality? But still, it gets you out of this of believing that it could. Yeah. Okay? No, that's not true. Not true. And also here, James, at the same time when you were saying, says a quote, nothing is what it seems, nor is it elsewhere or otherwise. Yeah, beautiful. Thanks, James. Thanks, Julia. Thanks, everyone. And thanks, everyone who was on Facebook and on Zoom. Thanks, Dean.