Meeting with Kat, Sunday 23 August 2026 (Facebook live)

hopefully that's gonna work ready yeah and now i'm gonna i'm gonna spin it around so we can say hi to the guys who are with on zoom with us so we have julia lucky tony sin and the guys on zoom are david jane john josh and there we are and because we have we have our beautiful julia with us i was actually really hoping to swap chairs with her she gave me a little sample of a spiel with a beautiful examples from buddhism and a little little of uh her beautiful and clear understanding and some of you may know julia is hosting meetings on sunday afternoon for american group which is monday morning for for us and i think it is a great value to actually hear their pointings would you swap chairs you want me over there yeah yeah i i i'm in the master seat i think we were chatting earlier i'll wait till she comes back don't wait okay uh earlier kat and i were having a chat and we were just talking about the conceptual image that we all get a conceptual image about what somebody is but is it ever accurate what's up oh we gotta let everybody in oh now the pressure's on so we were we were chatting about the conceptual image that we get in our head a concept about what something is or what someone is i've often had a thought that anything you put after is m and r is bullshit it's just because that's just an idea it's about a thing it's it's it's a narration and new information can change that and different perspectives will change that and it's just not accurate because it's a narration i'm going to digress a little bit because we also went into this pointer that i shared with somebody else you ever heard the story of the buddha and the buddhist story of the two arrows i like this story and it's a little bit about just a little bit about kind of like my my adhd has me all over the place but it's just also about um narration i think that's what really is this conceptual image is in a narration and this other thing with narration so there was the story is about the two arrows is that there's this one arrow and that's the one where you get shot and you're saying ouch there's this physical pain it really hurts the second arrow is the oh my god does that mean i have cancer or you hit me and what are we going to do about this well the one thing is everything is all Abraham Lincoln and the willis willis and that makes it a lot worse much more uncomfortable um that second era so she liked that story that i shared with somebody else the other day and i think it helps because you can see that you can have the physical pain but the the other pain of the that is that can be avoided you might not be able to avoid the first era but you can dodge the second one um what else was i babbling about was just this the conceptual image years ago i used to go to the anthony robbins seminars and he he was talking about the topic of judgment which i think that's what a conceptual image is we've made a judgment i think judgment is a verdict anything after is m and r it's guilty or not guilty and not guilty is also a judgment so there's a judgment right but once we've judged something and we've got a conceptual image that this day you are this we cannot see them as anything else it's happening in my country actually a lot now in the united states you're uh if you're um someone's a republican i'm a democrat i don't want to hear what they have to say because i already know i've got my ideas and the republican is this this this this and this and it's the reverse the republicans they don't want to hear what the democrat would have to say because they already know and the listening gets turned off once that judgment is is occurred and there's a decision of this is we're not open now to anything else that might arise and and show where that's inaccurate because we're not there's the curiosity has been killed we're not even looking for that um what was else was i babbling about with this just yeah uh the conceptual image it's kind of like a judgment really i mean i guess once we go on you have this idea of of what somebody is and then we don't take in that con the possibility that it might be something else or some you know they might express differently as i was dealing with a lawsuit with a family member this understanding came in handy even if there is no action figure here just the understanding that if she had the exact same thinking or thought in the moment that i have and the exact same chemistry and the exact same programming and the exact same everything she would do exactly what i do and how can i expect that i mean it's ridiculous to even think about that so it's not possible and the same is true like if i had her exact same thoughts i would do exactly what she does and what happens i think is we get an expectation which is another fixed concept that's bought into and that's what i'm talking about and that's when we get really upset is this this expectation is taken to be a truth and then reality shows up and and we're not now really we get upset because our concept what we thought to be true the expectation is not is reality showing up is kind of showing us no it's this is not what's happening and then we fight against that and we get upset because it's not showing up as the mind said it should be and then we get upset because it's not showing up as the mind said it should be should and anyway i don't know how non-dual this is but it does at least help to understand the the drama that that can come about because of believed in thought and thoughts aren't the problem it's it's they're going to happen whether you want them or not but it can be good if the skill arises to notice the thinking that's making me feel like that i'm feeling like crap so like i just love bob's pointer of what's wrong with right now okay so um if i'm feeling upset uh the way out it's pretty fast it's i'm just noticing that there's a thought happening and now that the thoughts believed in that this should be something else i thought i put that on airplane mode sorry yeah Anyway, I don't know where I have a hard time rambling like other people do only when I'm like with a newbie who's never heard any of this stuff before.

So this was fresh and new but you've all heard this before. I don't know because I guess I don't know. Maybe, maybe people heard it 100 times but never heard it. Maybe there's a chance to hear something for the first time now. Yeah. See when Bob was rambling pointers spiel, the same spiel, I heard it probably few thousand times. But it's fresh and new every time you hear it. That's one thing. And then I would also hear people saying, shit, you know, I heard you speaking gibberish for five years and now the same thing you were saying, it lands now. I hear it now. And your breakdown.

And you gave a couple of breakdowns. I kind of like the way you think because like I like to break things down. You know, I have this sort of, I was thinking about this in the bus stop, you know, like why free will never meant anything to me or why I never blamed other people for stuff, you know, because I always just saw the universe as unraveling. So you know, what was the point of like blaming people for being an unraveling universe, you know? It's like, you know, if you're blaming other people, you're blaming yourself. You're blaming yourself. You're blaming other people. It's like, you know, they're, you know, maybe they're not recited and they're aiming at, you know, aiming at a target and, but they're aiming at the wrong target because they can't actually see the real target and they're getting really angry and upset and they're blaming, you know, other people themselves in the world because they're hitting the wrong target.

You know, they're not, they missed the target and you're like, but the target's here. How can I possibly, you know, get in with your anger with you? You know, I'd like to point out that's not the target, but you might get more angry. Yeah. So, you know, you know, if you just see the universe is unraveling, how, how can you lay blame? It's just, it's not a thing. It's not a thing. I'd like to point out that there's a difference between responsibility and response-ability. Like, you know, there's responsibility, which is the ability to respond. And then responsibility, like just one word that's ascribing doership. That's, that's, that's basically, that's totally saying there's a doer.

You're responsible. So we don't get upset with the toddler. If a toddler picks up a gun and kills somebody, we don't give them life imprisonment. Do we? We don't even get angry with them. We get angry with somebody else. We go back to a previous cause like the parents or something. You shouldn't have left the gun out. Right. But we don't get upset with them because we don't see them as response-able, not even response-able really. But we don't, we don't see them as responsible. We don't, we don't have a blame. And because we're not blaming, we don't judge. But it was like when I first came to understand at least this idea of like, I was so on fire with this.

I was like, oh my God, this is game changing. You know, just this, just because I always did believe in the, the, oh yeah, I have a hundred percent responsible. That was my programming, you know, a hundred percent. What if it's zero? You know, what, what a switch. Nobody ever even said that. Now, a hundred percent, you even chose your parents. They said, I'm like, well, prove it. Okay. Like, I don't know that I would have chosen my alcoholic narcissistic mother. You know what I mean? I might have chosen something else if I, if there was a me that had a choice, you know, there's no choice, but, but one, I remember just being all excited about that.

And Bob was just like, you are missing the point, you know? Cause I was like, there's nobody here to have a choice. Yeah. None. And, and that, that's really is there's a believing in a somebody and that can do stuff. And that's, it's just really like a lot of people want to, I was having a conversation recently with a 17 year old who was like, now he was like really into pride, loves, wants to be proud. My thoughts about pride is it's, there's no better way to say doer. You know what I mean? When we're proud of something. Aren't we like saying pride? Are we saying that there's, oh yeah, look what I did.

You know, there's no, no ego without a thought and there's nobody here that you can't cut it out of your head. And at the same time, I think if we were to give it a definition, we can say there's egoing, right. Or the appearance of that, of, of taking ourselves to be the doer. That's all it is. And I think that's what pride is, is it's just a full on, I did it or they did it. And so it's sort of almost the opposite of shame in a way, like, but not, it's like in a good way of shame, but it's still the same mechanism.

You know, it's just the other side of the coin. It's a lighter energy than shame, but it's still, yeah, it's still, um, seeing, you know, an object where there isn't one, you know. Feels good though. You know, it's nice. I mean, it does feel nice, but it's just something to be aware of, you know what I mean? Or to notice. And I don't know. I mean, I haven't experienced a lot of, cause I've just seen the universe as a universe really. I haven't actually experienced pride much in my life, but I understand what it is and I know what people are talking about. I don't, um, and I think maybe I have felt a smidgen of it, but yeah, I, it's, it's not something I need to worry about letting go of cause I don't really have it.

And I probably don't have the personality, but like you two, the sevens on the Enneagram that, you know, go for the buzz. So I've got other issues and problems, like I'm more like anxious about everything. I'm more anxious about every future possibility. You know? Yeah. Because this is a good point. You know, some personalities like sevens will go for a buzz, right? Some personalities like fear, whatever the fear, fear based all the elder had tried this fear, but we'll get the buzz from feeling safe. There's still a buzz. It's still a pleasure. It's just the processor because you know, this very, very basic binary machine.

Which is wired for survival, which always in that basic bias, three first pleasure over pain, it goes towards pleasure and avoids moves away from pain because pain is that, that very simple. You can call it the different labels, but it's generally that sort of dynamic, which is survival safety versus danger. So safety is sometimes the buzz, you know, like the adventurousness and the excitement. And the intellectual heart that comes from a beauty is, is the attraction is the same attraction as for other sorts of settings in the processors in the projectors is the sense of safety, sense of absolute trust, sense of being protected or, you know, like even the idea of future, even though future doesn't really have any validity in the direct experience for the processor, it is designed to keep that alive.

So it predicts the future. And the safety itself is all about not feeling the uncomfortable emotions. So when you see like the movement away from the discomfort or the movement to the, you know, exciting distraction from the discomfort, you know, whichever kind of way it pings, you're like, Oh, I'm not going to do this. You're going to do this. You're going to do that. You're going to do that. It's not about any of these things. Yeah. It's just not wanting to feel the uncomfortable feelings as the real avoidance of that is the one thing that's being avoided and all the safety making efforts. Yeah. Yeah, that's it.

That's it. Avoiding this was really, really good and precise description, you know, avoiding uncomfortable feelings because uncomfortable feelings would be an equivalent in that basic description of that binary description of, you know, pain pleasure. That's the pain. That's discomfort. It's just the wording. But we know kind of intuitively what it is. When you watch the animal, you observe it. Yes. For me, it's like observing my own reactions. That's how I noticed it. It's like there was an uncomfortable feeling and then there was this movement away or a movement into dive into whatever addiction it is to not even have to think about it. Yes, yes.

I like it. I like it. I really, really... That's right. But I do really appreciate the precision of your wording. It is actually more precise to say that this machine is wired to avoid uncomfortable feelings than to just reduce it to pain pleasure. But because that sort of pain pleasure already exists in the language, you know, in the psychology and everywhere, that's why I'm using it. But your wording is more precise. It really is. And it's more relatable in the direct experience. There are people actually who get buzz from experiencing pain and even, God forbid, for inflicting pain. That also happens. That is a serious damage in the whole processor, which does, you know, like...

Let's say you get... A severely, severely abused child, raped and violated and violated. Inflicting pain, give it a sense of power. I'm not completely powerless. So now this dynamic pain pleasure is a little bit more corrupted and it's less precise than what you say. Avoiding uncomfortable feeling. Yes. So even that person who was so severely damaged and is inflicting pain on others, is really avoiding uncomfortable feeling of being powerlessness. Say this, psychopath, avoiding uncomfortable feeling. So this one is actually... Yeah. Maybe we should adopt the precise vocabulary rather than reduce it to pain pleasure. But you go back to the buzz because you were... Yeah.

Yeah. Both of you, like, gave some breakdown examples that, you know, I might want to use in the future because that might be right for that person I'm talking to. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I like from you guys. Like, you're really good with the animal stuff. You know, you both sort of think in a similar way to me when you do those breakdowns. I really like to hear those because they are, like, reflective of reality. It's nice. Yeah. Go back to the breakdowns, Julia. Yeah. I don't know which breakdown to start with. I mean, I do love the process of elimination. I mean, that's a breakdown, I guess.

Yeah. You know, it's just... It's this whole netty-netty thing of seeing what is by seeing what is not. It's a process of elimination. I'm thinking of this old biblical quote, know the truth and the truth shall set you free. I used to do these Course in Miracles lectures and they said something that I thought was just sort of game-changing. What are you free from? Except for all the psychological suffering. That's what... That's the only... I've really believed in thought. Yeah. The psychological... That's it. You're freed from the belief in thought when it's seen through. Okay? And now there's no more belief that it needs to be this or it should have been that or I am this or they are that.

You know? Not that that, but you know what I mean? Like, we buy into this idea that someone or something is a thing. We put it in a box. You can say that you're in a tunnel and there is light at the end of it. Yeah. But when you've seen the truth... So the truth, by the way, can't be spoken. Yeah. I mean, the moment we have a word attached to it, now we're like... Because I'm breaking it down again, the word or whatever. I just remember being at an event once and they were talking about the word love. And it's a big, powerful word.

Some people say you shouldn't use it because, you know, it's so big. And then other people are like, oh, it's meaningless. Or, you know, it's like that one word. can mean different things depending on who's speaking, right? Or who's listening. So some people will see it, you know, some people will see it as, as, oh, romance. You know, I went to Russia and I was talking to Patch Adams about love with him. And he was like, oh, he's just going off about something really romantic. It was just like reading some Emerson poetry. I don't know, just something poetic. I'm like, if you're thinking about my kid, I'm disgusted.

What do you mean? What are you saying? You know what I mean? So his concept of love is really romantic. And another person's concept of love might be, I don't know, you have to really, you know, I just like this idea. I have a concept of it too. I know it's bullshit, but I like it. Okay. I'm going with it. It's an allowing of something or someone to be as it or they are without needing to fix, modify or correct. Have anything to do different to the degree that we can be at peace with what is. Yeah. I think this and being sort of precise about things and, and, you know, having at least a look as a step on to not needing to look at all.

So, you know, I watch a lot of these Asian dramas and they're excellent at like delving into the characters and characters looking at themselves and all of that, but they don't look at a very zoomed out. They don't have a very zoomed out look. So the idea of all that, all of that's toxic behavior. There's, it never comes up, you know, whereas if you look at like a sort of soap opera here, you know, people, I haven't looked at one in decades, but they might be talking about, oh, that was toxic behavior. Let's put that all together. And these dramas, they're like always trying to find a way out, but they're not even considering that they're in a tunnel with a light at the end of it, if you know what I mean.

So they might be being, you know, highly skilled in many other ways, but the actual release, which is, is really sitting with the emotions has, I guess the process quite often isn't even known as part as an agenda that exists out there, you know? So this sort of breaking things down, showing examples, animal examples, all this sort of stuff being far more accurate. What is it that I'm actually feeling? What is it that love, what is love for me, you know, being, going, describing the reality for yourself as much as possible. That's the idea. . as often as possible is a step towards not even needing to do that at all.

Yeah, and seeing how the mind functions. You know, that was what Bob was always hammering down to people. The fascinating best game in the town to actually see your own processor at work, how it creates the concept about everyone. And it creates concept about oneself. And this was one of the things that you also mentioned, Julia, in the morning. You know, if you have the concept about yourself of being worthless piece of shit and you believe it, now the energy of belief comes and makes it real. Well, there is a suicidal ideation. That's the consequence of the concept. Imagine you having a concept about someone else to be your most wonderful, best partner, best friend, wonderful, faithful husband.

And this concept, this concept of being worthless piece of shit, and you believe it. And of course, you respond to that concept and you have the best relationship in your life. And Bob also had that idea that, you know, I love her. I love her. I love her. But she said she said no to me, the bitch. You know how the concept can flip and can change. And it changes based again on the machinery setting. If you had warm and loving family, likely you will project environment as safe. If you had. You know, like really, really hostile environment, safety will be priority. So now that husband, maybe that perfect partner, maybe he's cheating on me.

And now the processor will prioritize safety. And now you're on a divorce spree. And the poor guy doesn't really know what's going on. Why? What happened? Oh, I can't. I'm not going to fucking tell you, you know, you idiot. You don't pretend. Don't play. Don't play games with me. Of course you know what happens. And that is absolutely believed. And as far as I know, you know, many people I spoke with, they would have the experience like that in their life when they are faced with the reality of their concept being not as accurate as they would imagine it to be like you. And that is very liberating.

It's just really liberating when when you can see your full shit. Yes. Okay. I'm like, you know what? I don't know. It's just kind of like, have you ever lost something? Like, okay, I don't have my glasses handy. They're next to you. But it'd be like, you know, I got, you know, this is more of a visual. Where are my glasses? Where are my glasses? Oh, my God. I'm like, you know, not even noticing I've got them in my head. You know, and then the moment you notice that, like, I don't know, I think I lost something the other day. I'm sitting in my son's car and I misplaced my keys.

I don't know. I'm flipping out for a moment. Oh, my God. It's like cats. I'm going to keep my friend's house in my car key here. Like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And then how long did it take to settle down? The moment I realized you're there, you know, but it was like all that's happened. It's like what was seen through. I guess once I discovered them is I never really lost them, you know, and there they are. Here they are. They're ready. It's just immediate. It's once you see through it, it's fast. It's right here. We're back to here. You know, and this is, I think, I mean, I don't know.

I had an insight a long time ago that this sense of well-being is always, always here. If I'm interested in, like, just seeing beyond the believed in thought, it's always beyond, just beyond this. No, not this. This sense of well-being is between each word which I believe in. Which I will sometimes say slowly put more space because it is irritating. But it can also help you notice the space that's underlying that all the words are showing up on. It's always here. And do I ever have a problem if I'm not going this is what should be or this is what is or this is it?

It's always like all the suffering. The suffering. The upset. Always. It's just a believed in thought. The other day I did that with my glasses but I was actually wearing them. Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. That's exactly it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. Right in front of you. You're wearing glasses. Yeah. And they're here. And then you laugh, don't you? You know, you laugh when you see it. It's a release. That happens. That's what laughter is. It's a letting go. It's a . . . but it's letting go. When we're like, oh, yeah, duh. And I have so many people, they're looking for peace. I'm like, I've been working at a nursing home lately and I'm like, they think it's somewhere out there.

That's what's kind of sad. You know, it's the same thing. It's the same thing. Yeah. is people don't understand that this is like, you know, I think it's so helpful to have children, that I've had babies in my life, you know, that I can say, you know what, they can get really upset. They do. They'll scream. They get upset. But they let go so fast, so effort. They don't, you know, they don't stay in that upset, you know. And there used to be a narration of, well, that's because they don't have responsibility, you know. That's it, because they don't have, there's nothing they have to do.

That's why they're peaceful. But I didn't understand at the time that, you know, you really never did have responsibility, actually, you know. So all that, the because story that I had, no, it's actually there's a better because. It's because there's nobody here. I'm making a claim of what should be what I am. They don't yet have that concept, that fixed image of anything after is M and R or even one is. They don't even have that. That's freedom. You know, we started out that way and it's always here. And that's just sort of kind of liberating, kind of game changing. When there's like, you know, I can get bought into the nightmare.

I'd like to. I like to watch movies with my husband. And I don't like to watch the horror movies too much. And the action adventure, because I want to like laugh when I'm trying to relax. But when we do watch a movie, if it's like an adventure, I'll like, you know, it's more of a visual, but I'm going to cut off your circulation. You think I'm a voice, but I got strong hands and I'm, you know, and I'm freaking out and it's a movie and I know it's a movie. But then I do that when it'll happen. So I. No, this is a movie. This is a really fun dream that I'm like sharing.

We're dreaming together. I'm aware of it. But then there's a buying into it, but it only takes a second to go. Yeah. But that's the thing, you know, buying into it doesn't mean that there is a person. No, nobody does that. That is by nobody buys. Yeah. That's, that's the beauty. You know, when Bob said you have a concept about everyone and everyone has the concept about you and nobody's doing it. And you have. You have the concept about yourself. Which concept is right? None of them, obviously. But it doesn't mean yes, that there is someone producing concept. I remember it was one question that I asked Bob.

So don't you have concepts? And he says, well, but of course the concepts comes up. Come up. Of course they come up. You know, when the person walks in the door, the concept come is a human. It speaks English. It doesn't, you know, like, obviously it's not a tree. It's not a brick. He said. The. The concepts are. Just. Not of the operational system. But are there correct? No. So my concept about you, your concept about your friend or your child or whoever, none of it is true. That's why Bob would always say don't trust anyone, anyone, because those people that you see that you consider your spouses, your parents, your friends, you don't see them.

You're looking through the lens of your own conditioning. You see. The conceptual image. Don't trust them because you don't see them. You may have very, very precise and accurate conceptual image, especially as you say, you're breathing children, you know, them all their life. They're in, they out. Well, yes, the image had a really, really good time to form you like, quite accurate. Probably the best, you know, the more data you put in the processor, the more outcome, the more precision of the outcome, the longer, you know, someone, you know, I know my mom all my life. The image is still there. Well, I do. Trust her.

I don't really trust her or my image of her. Bob said, don't trust anyone. But unconditionally and absolutely trust life. Yeah, that's where I have trust. We'll move these people, your children, your mothers out of your life. It's not because the image is not because of the action. It's not because they were guilty or you were guilty. There's no one anywhere. There's no one anywhere. But if life does that. Yeah. And if it moves that way. I remember Tanya describing, you know, that this hurricane came and just swapped her out of one chapter of her life, broke her to another. And that's how it happens.

And trust life because it will prove the perfection way, way greater than any human intelligence and intelligence and the limited processor concepts can ever have. And if you've only ever seen life as something unfolding. And if you've only ever seen life as something unfolding. And if you've only ever seen life as something unfolding. Trust is absolutely meaningless. Because, you know, yeah, it's like having a fight club, you know, with an imaginary fight, fight partner. When it's just this life happening. There's no life has no destination. Life has no blueprint. Life has no pathway. Life has no, you know, if anything is possibly just going in towards a vacuum.

That's the only thing I can think it might be. Yeah. That's the only thing I can think it might be. Yeah. That's the only thing I can think it might be. That's the only thing I can think it might be. That's a great point. Because, you know, even the idea of trusting life subtly assumes that there is an I surrendering to life or trusting to life. There is no one there. And yet, naturally, there is something happening that is discombobulating or is objecting to the images or is incomprehensible. Naturally, there is an urge to make sense of it because that machine, again, works to preserve the coherence.

Makes sense. This is a meaning making machine. So surrender that. Relax. Don't object to anything. Just be the space. Be the presence. Be the witnessing. Be the nothing. Yeah. There is no great perfection. There is just that not, not, there is that release of that behavior. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. But I do, I do like that, you know, you always contribute a great value, like even trust, you know. Well, perfection, that's a concept too. You know, that's a concept. And at the same time, I just, I like, you know, was it Bob brought up the great perfection of non-conceptual. Non-conceptual. Non-conceptual. Ever present. You know, presence awareness.

Like just this, nothing else. That would be perfection, actually. Because now we're not going into this is. I am. They are. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm saying. Yeah. That, that in a way would be the great perfection because, but we started out that way, didn't we? You know? Yeah. Yeah. And we, a long time ago though, I just kind of thought about this with kids and all that. We can see them as little babies is perfect.

Don't we? You know, perfect. Look, 10 fingers, 10 toes. And as long as I've got 10 fingers, 10 toes. I've got 10 fingers. I've got 10 fingers and 10 toes. That means I'm perfect. Okay. Okay, good. But at some point we get to be a little bit older, you know, and now we're like, now Jimmy is not listening to me. Now he's disobedient. Now he's, you know, a bad boy. And then, like, somehow, like, they go from perfect to now there's a concept of what should be. You know what I'm saying? You could say that the great perfection equals no judgment. Yeah. Yeah, no thought.

No thought arises. Yeah. No judgment happens. There's no perfection necessary. It's just. Yeah, no, it's just what. And that is the great perfection. That is. Yeah. You don't even judge it as perfect. Right. Because there is no concept. Right. That's what it says. Non-conceptual. Non-conceptual awareness. So without the concept, you can't even say it's perfect or imperfect. Right. But now the concept arises in that which is prior to concepts. So that non-conceptual awareness. It's like, you know, the awareness of space, which you don't conceptualize it, but you don't deny it is there or awareness of the temperature in the room or just awareness of existence.

Nobody even has to put it to words. And it is there. That's the non-conceptual awareness. And on that descriptions, processing, creating conceptual images about the world, about the politics, about religions, about your children, about your spouses, about your friends arises in that non-conceptual, ever fresh presence awareness. And now standing or resting in that box seat of that non-conceptual ever fresh space, like sky, like awareness and watching what it is going to come up with. Oh, I love this. Oh, I hate this. Oh, I'm afraid of this. Oh, I had a nightmare. And there's the eye that shows up in every single one of them. So there it is.

Nobody's doing that. Nobody does that. And at the same time, it's. Very interesting to notice that, that that's all that's happening. Every time there's like this suffering that's happening, whenever it shows up. Oh, what's the common denominator. Like, yeah. Isn't there always in me. Yeah. You know, it's, it's an idea. It's a thought that doesn't exist. It's just a concept that's, that's again, that's bought into there is none, none here really. Like, you know, it's not here unless it shows up and now it's believed in, but it's, it was. It's already, I believe it's a was, not a, but it's got to be. It's now, it's gone.

It's gone. Okay. I guess I didn't mean to interrupt. I was just thinking about what, what you mentioned about the feeling. I actually love, I would love the, in a few Julia, you have such a good question. So you are actually such a good interviewer. You know, you usually come up with those questions, you know, what about the next question. Yeah. Okay. . Like, no, not now. Oh yeah. All right. Okay. But I still want to hear interview Julia because she's so good at that. Yeah. So James says. Okay. Oh, wow, we have quite a contribution. And thank you, guys. Thank you, guys, on Zoom.

And thank you, guys, on Facebook. I have some on Facebook. So Jyoti says, hi, Kat and everyone. Where does one draw the line between no one is in control and their actions and taking stance against wrongdoing? It's beautiful. Again, drawing the line happens. You can discover how the line is being drawn and also how that line is actually changing. As the concepts are changing, as the experiences are changing, you know, as the data get updated in that processor, the drawing the line changes, you know, like when is it acceptable to kill animals and eat them? Or when is it acceptable to, you know, like whatever, subscribe to euthanasia and all those other lines.

You can see how the processor is affected by the past experiences, conditioning, influences from every single thing. And it draws the line in different ways. And the stance against wrongdoing, even the definition of the right doing and the wrongdoing, even that is a concept, is based in concept. It's a beautiful question and we can explore it further. And thank you for that question. I think I'm going to happily explore it also in the Zoom meetings because that's really lovely. Actually, nobody draws a concept. Like nobody's done that either. So you can't even draw a line. Nobody can do that. You can see it happens. It's showing up.

But nobody does that. Totally. It would be inaccurate. I don't know. Yeah, it would all be inaccurate. You know, the story about the war that's coming and so the guy sends off a, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. I don't, yeah. Everything, every line that is ever drawn, what's right, what's wrong, you know? You're not going to get it right. No. It's impossible. It's a concept. It's a concept. And Emmanuel says. Morning, please save me from me. Oh, I could be your lifeline. Stay with you till the sunrise. Jyoti, see Rumi's famous poem about any ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing. There is a field. I'll meet you there.

Or as Byron Katie says, who needs God when we have your, when we have your opinion? Who needs God when we have your opinion? Which concept is right? Of course it's mine. And then Emmanuel, Jyoti says, oh no, there we have another one. James says when the action is harmless, there is no wrongdoing. And, and what about when the motivation is malicious, even if the action is harmless and what is malicious again? You know, even a sadist. Sooth is it sooth himself. Yeah. By, by inflicting pain. Those, you know, you can't draw the line really. That's the point. And Jyoti also says it's the absolute and relative aspect that is quite a struggle to make sense of beautifully put and sense making machine, which is mind never, ever get it right is the struggle that you can sit back, relax.

And watch. You can watch that struggle and enjoy it because the content of the struggle is completely imagined. That's the beautiful dream. That's the movie that when Julia says, you know, watching a horror, you know, that's, that's the show. And Emmanuel says, yes. And James tried to make sense of breathing without breathing. Who can make sense? Anything. And Jyoti says it all collapses. And James life is breathing. Prana is the life energy. Everything. Yeah, absolutely. You can see the unfolding. You can see how drawing the line or making sense, how making sides, having opinions, all of it happens. And you can just relax and watch the show.

What's your mind? See how it functions. See what it does. And that's the best game in town. And thank you. I've read all. And you grew. Julia, please. I don't have anything to grill. And then John says the mind is a wonderful and a terrible master. Yeah. A while ago. Exactly. Yeah. I was thinking about what you were saying before about, you know, Bob, you have a concept. So there's often a concept that maybe people like Bob that he would never have a concept. Yeah. Okay. That that's a concept. That's a concept that should be maybe blown out of the water. Yes. Okay. That the thoughts never show up.

That means that he lives without thinking, which is not true because I think. But you. So to say. But I've heard him say, oh, no, he just put the point. Like when somebody says, I don't have a thought. I don't I don't think what they're saying is not that the thoughts don't arise, but they're not doing it. Okay. There's no doer. So that's what they're saying when they say, I don't think. Okay. But it can sound kind of like, oh, that means that you never know that you never have thoughts happening when you say you don't think. But to be more clear, it's saying, oh, no, that's I'm not doing it.

Okay. That's that's there's no. Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Taking credit. Yeah. There's no credit. Oh, I thought that doesn't arise. That's all that happens. Yeah. Yeah. They honest. They say taught happened. But taught has been discovered. Like, yeah, I would answer that question when people ask Bob, do you have thoughts? And he says, well, thoughts arise. Do I have them? There is no I do. Right. Right. Right. They still arise just like sweat arises on the skin. Saliva arises in the mouth. I'm not making the sweat happen any more than I'm making the thoughts. That's exactly right. I'm not doing any of it.

That's and that is that again, is just so liberating. You know, you're. You're off the hook. And so are they. You know, that's that everyone's off the hook. There's no hook. No. And nobody can have one. No, but I'm going to. Nobody. It. Yeah. That that's the free is. Yeah. That was something because I never really believed in free. Well, like I didn't, I thought there was an eye, but that, you know, it took me like a few minutes here and there over a week to just have a look and oh yeah, well, I don't see one and they might as well not be one as be one.

So who cares? You know? I was, it wasn't that actually a problem. That wasn't a big hurdle for me. Um, the bigger hurdle is all the reactions of discomfort that are still, you know, there and releasing takes place that reduces that, but that that's the blockage here. Um, and like you, the bone mine's gone somewhere else. I don't quite know what I was saying. Um, sorry. What were you guys saying that I was wanting to respond to? I was, I think I was just talking about, how was I talking? What was she talking about? Things, things, just thoughts, you know, bought into the doership, the idea of a me that, that can be.

What about everyone off the. Off the hook. There's no hook and there's no one who hangs on the hook. Um, that's gone. Sorry. That's all right. That's mine. Mine does. Luckily you have anything. Uh, I don't believe so. Um, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It doesn't make sense. No, I did enjoy Julie, what you're saying at the start about the concepts we have of each other and how that how you can instantly discount what's right in front of you, like what's happening right now, because you've got this overlay of a concept and it can be relatively simple to see when we're, when we're having thoughts that, oh, this thought is, you know, not like.

Yeah. Yeah. this is not me or this this thought is not true although it's a little can be a little more challenging to realize that these impressions we build up about people are themselves just subtle thoughts that we're holding on to in the background and you come through and and it's more subtle because it's or it's a pre-existing thought that's kind of like baked into your response and so you it you can miss it and and do exactly as you say where you discount someone or you assume you know someone because you're subtly identifying with a thought which says this person is like this and this person thinks that um and it's yeah it's a more it feels like a more nuanced nuanced kind of investigation is really looking and seeing people and seeing people and seeing people and seeing people and seeing people and seeing people as they are in directly in front of you instead of as you believe them to be um yeah it's a and it i think you said like you know you weren't sure if this is non-dual i think it's entirely non-dual it's like that's that's the essence of of non-duality is is not attaching to thought and not being identified with with thought and like say thoughts happen and thoughts happening in and of themselves isn't duality that's just what is it's and it's the identification with the thought that gives the arising appearance of duality yeah and because then there's me and whatever the thought is talking about or directing to and they're they're by definition separated if you're believing that um yeah just just it's such a simple and uh poignant practice to meet people as they are with no preconceived thoughts you know i think they want you to though sometimes i was talking with my kid you know and he feels misunderstood like you know my mother sent you like i love concept of what you had about me you're loving whatever because you didn't talk to me in years you know i mean so you don't know that i'm maybe completely different than i was when i was 17 you know or when you knew me back then so you're loving maybe the idea of what you had of me but maybe not what i am i don't even know what i am actually i'm 59 years old and i'm still getting to know whatever this is i'm not i don't even know but my kid was wanting like feeling like oh i i don't know him i'm like i'm i don't know me you know i don't know anything anymore i'm still discovering things so i think people want you to go like maybe agree with their own self-concept you know and then you're like oh i don't know what i'm doing i don't know what i'm doing and then you're like oh just let me play this game for once right you know that's not true you know they're like okay this is what i am you should know what your concept of what i am should match mine right and mine might be full of too but you know they're both full of they're both full of so you know but even the thought that it should match is full of you know what i mean that yours your concept should match my it's it's all full of i mean but but just seeing that it's all full of it's all so so sad like oh yeah yeah it's funny because i had a friend ask me because i was telling them about uh anyone you know an experience i had an experience that i had um of i don't know it was a psychedelic experience and so anything's like okay i need to know does the creator exist and i was like that is the how could i possibly answer that question because i have no idea what you mean when you say creator like and it's kind of laughable i'm like if i say yes or no you're in no different position like how is a thought gonna going to help and and if i say yes you is the belief then that there's some you know puppet master up there pulling the strings um and that's the inevitable problem with concepts or trying to you know portray truth through concepts is it's useless because the concept can never be the truth which is why it's always referred to as pointers because you have to look for yourself where we're pointing and if someone says to you god is real that's not a pointer that's just a statement of fact that's as useless as a cat is real or yeah bigfoot is real which he is and that's the sort of recognizing that as like the freeing version of not communicating, but then the jailing version of not communicating is people who just want to be understood without that communication to attempt to, well, what do you actually mean?

Because if they have to actually communicate how they really feel, then they might have to say something vulnerable, they might get rejected, and it's just a safety issue. So when I watch all these Asian dramas, like the Chinese one, I watched a character where she just, oh, you have to know why I'm angry, and that's basically, and she has the geek boyfriend who's a scientist, and he goes, but that's unreasonable. And she's like, well, now I'm even more angry with you, I'm not going to talk to you for a few days now. But then within the culture, he then has to find a way of making her right.

And, you know, living with it. Living with her unreasonable, you know, because, yeah, if we start expressing, if we start trying to communicate, you know, might get rejected in some way, and that wouldn't be safe. And so that's the sort of like in the bubble, very much in the bubble, effort to not communicate, whereas recognizing that communication is going to fall down at the other end is the freeing version of not communicating. So, yeah, I think that's the sort of thing that I would say. Dean, we have a question here for you from James. Question to Dean. Who deserves peace? That's not even a lasting question.

Have a look. No, I'm fine. Okay. Yeah, well, deserving, you know. Maybe I'll just, maybe I'll just start from the very start, like, if that's all right. Because, you know, this is non-duality. This meeting is all about non-duality. So, one essence, patterning, shaping, forming, appearing is everything. And in that everything, you know, there's this thing of perception. And what is perceived. And automatically, you know, perception creates conceptualization. So there's a concept of what is actually perceived. And then there's a concept of what is actually appearing. So this non-dual, one essence is the one thing appearing to be perceived from this body, mind. So automatically there's a sense of like, oh, separation.

And that concept, what is that concept? You know, I see there's a tree. As soon as I learn what a tree is, how will I actually see a tree again? How is it even possible? That's all. Yeah. to actually see a tree for what it is without any concept because there's a vehicle here that's been conditioned by the universe from the very, you know, food that my grandparents ate to what happened the moment my mum met my dad and everything. And everything. We could go into the details of, you know, social and economic and genetics and biochemistry and something on the other side of the world that influenced that particular gust of wind.

You know, it's endless what has actually influenced this thing. And that is clearly seen as like there is no one doing that. There is no one has influenced this machinery to perceive and to conceive and to conceptualise in the way it's actually doing it. So in that sense, automatically, there's no doer. So there's an appearance of thoughts. So as you started this whole meeting talking about this sort of the way we perceive and the way the concept is constructed, you know, you've got a concept of me. I've got a concept of me. I've got a concept of you. Which one is true? Which one is real?

Obviously, there is no reality in a concept as such. If reality is that which never changes, you can see that there's infinite perceptions, infinite concepts. But this is also not to, you know, we're not described. Non-duality is not a non-perceptible. It's like not the absence of perception either. It's like the acknowledgement that perception is happening and there's actually no one doing it. And the perception itself is like a God-given, like universal-given, life-given thing that's allowing the experience to even unfold, even experience to unfold. So what was the question? So I'm getting to the question. And so, yes, exactly. So this is a long way around.

But it's sort of bringing everything to the basics of what this is and what we're doing. And then, so in that conceptualization, there's embedded, like I think you said, I can't remember the word you used, but embedded and implied that there's me, myself, and I, like it's embedded in the thought structure, in the narrative. And this, what you were actually pointing to earlier was like psychological suffering, pretty much. Like there's raw perceptions and then there's conceptualization and then there's all these, the narrative, the self-narrative, the self-talk that I'm doing it, that I'm controlling it, that I'm in control or I'm the doer, I'm not the doer.

Or that they are. Or that they are, of course. Yeah, that there's them. It's kind of the same thing. Yes. Sorry. Yes. No, no, no. Keep going. Exactly. No, you keep going. I didn't mean to interrupt. I'm just kind of chiming in. That there's like, it's just the same thing. It's the same mechanism to believe that there's a them doing it as it is to believe that there's a me doing it. It's still a belief and thought that there's a doer. Yes. So, back to the actual, to the question. So, if you can see all these mechanisms at play, who is the seer of the mechanism?

Who is the observer of the mechanism? There's no observer. There just is a process that's appearing. And in that process that's appearing, everything is. So. And in that, without the belief in the concepts, without thinking that somehow, oh, there's a little me orchestrating, controlling, changing, moving, all of a sudden, that peace is already there. It's like the substratum of everything and everyone. And everything is peace without the concept. There's no good or bad without, if the thinking makes it so. So, there is actually no who as such, because the who is the narrative. There is just the underlying structure without the belief in the concepts that have been overlaid on top of perceptions and views and perspectives, the endless flow of perspectives.

And the structure of that is no longer believed to be the truth. So, there is actually no who anymore, but the peace is that which is, which allows this whole existence to exist. And it's like the, I don't like the word awareness, but it's often used. It's like the pure awareness or the awareness with non-conceptual awareness, obviously, without a concept. Or it's really, it's sort of wrong to even say without a concept. It's that without a believed in concept may even be more accurate. Like there's no, there is no one there to grasp because a concept of a me is a concept of a me.

He's a concept. So, it's like a, but there is no, I'm not even, there's no implication and don't get this wrong, that there's a witness of the witnesser and a grand observer of the observer and all this kind of rubbish. There is just immediately this nowness, and in that nowness, in this immediate moment, there is that, it's called peace, but you could call it almost the unmanifest, almost the pure. um the stillness in which everything explodes into being but they're simultaneously and it's all immediate and it's all now and in that is all the movement of the whole show the whole dream we call life and conceptualize on top of that is a narrative um on top is not even accurate either um but simultaneously as well is is the narrative is is the talk me myself and i i've done this i've moved that i i can move change improve modify and correct so like even in answer to some some other about good and bad and wrongdoing and um yeah and and also like doing something that's considered good there there is no place for this in in non-jewelry so what is considered good now can be considered bad tomorrow what can what is considered really good by the by 90 of the population could be considered incorrect by 10 of the population or or it could be considered wrong in 10 years from now when it's looked back at there is no absolute right or wrong there's endless colors of right and wrongness in the appearance of the dream um yeah can i babble a little bit at least about this concept of deserving i mean let's look into that what does that mean like when we're saying something isn't that a condition that certain things must happen in order for blank to occur so who is deserving peace well first off peace is what he's saying is already here it's always been it's the substratum it's the core right so who's deserving it everybody and everything you know what i mean so and there's nobody here the who is is also a is wanting to define an entity you know what i mean it's saying that there's somebody here that that there's there is no who okay and the deserving again there's another condition people seem to think that there's needs to be and you know a whole bunch of things that have to happen you know and then you've earned it okay you went to so many years of ashrams right you know and and that's it's because you did that right if if now i have to do many years and then maybe um you know because people will say that to me i've had people say oh well you did 10 years the sedona method and went to all those retreats and but this is somebody who did the same number of retreats as me okay so how come i get it and you don't or whatever it's not it's nothing to do with that okay it's it's not nothing to do with like it must be or x y and z must happen that's just another condition there's another concept also it's a concept it's believed in not me so there's a whole lot of believing that's it sorry no no a lot of a lot of believing happening i believed in me i believed in a concept i believe that like there's a condition this has to happen you know there's just a whole bunch of little little subtle beliefs that's just going right into this this and yeah deserving yeah beautiful yeah that's that's actually that's really nice and i also say uh thank you to james for inviting dean to conversation and uh also if anyone on zoom would like to unmute and say something and contribute something you know you you're most welcome just just raise the hand or just put the camera on or just or just unmute and speak a couple of times earlier was it who was it oh yeah i don't know okay anyway i actually yeah someone is uh is david did you did you want to say something i see you unmute or maybe you just unmute i oh sorry no uh yeah was i on mute yes yes do you want to contribute something ask question or make comment not really i'm just listening which is fantastic to hear everyone but yeah not really anything to say um at this stage but yeah thank you yeah okay thank you i'm just not sure what i'll be saying that's that's the way that's an attitude of openness be in completely open and just seeing discovering what question comes up what comment comes up and not you know like just even if there is sense of like controlling it or guarding it just watching it as another appearance that's lovely that's lovely when when it's ready when a question or comment is ready yeah and if there's even a reservation ready just yeah take a box seat and look comes up maybe unmutes maybe speaks up maybe objects lovely okay thank you thank you and i actually i i really really enjoyed i mean i'm enjoying absolutely everything about it this is this is always a lovely lovely occurrence to explore the natural states that's what we do we explore we explore questions explore pointers and it does have the same effect as it used to do on bob it would just invigorate looking at the way the mind functions project the world without engaging believing any projections who the energy isn't lost in expectations it isn't lost in in going with the intricacies of the dream identifying with the intricacies of the dream and it doesn't actually take any beauty out of the dream appearance still appearing is still colorful it's still intense it's emotionally intense like I love you know the way Tony said avoiding uncomfortable feelings that used to be and this was like almost 11 years ago when I had my one and only individual meeting with Bob and you mentioned Julia you know I want other people to have the same concept of me as I have of me and they don't you know my ex-boyfriend he had a concept of me it didn't match yours didn't he saw the ship's officer a smart ass I wasn't this wasn't me it felt like he's missing me entirely he can't see me like why could you see me like I don't even wear a uniform why do you see me in this way because I had a good luck I had a not sharp enough mind and a job and the money that was that was his image of me but how about the fragility the sensitivity the fear of rejection the avoidance of uncomfortable feelings this was my concept of me I was my in my own belief in Tony's language it's really precise and I like it much more than my own language and the I like it is just the preference arising there's no one anyway the the idea of me being the emotional self the core avoiding uncomfortable feeling not wanting to be seen as someone so rigid and so oh mechanical and and ugly ships off it's come on the hack it's like the cartoon character I'm so much more than that I'm sensitive and deep I have a heart I have fears I don't want oh you know the vulnerable self avoidance of uncomfortable feelings is it really what I am is it really who I am is that avoidance of uncomfortable feelings always present is it present when I'm watching a good comedy and laughing my butt off nope but I'm still here is it present when you know Bob's beautiful question what's wrong with right now if I don't think about it and the thinking is all the way off is it still present here no there's nothing wrong there's nothing wrong but I'm still here avoidance of uncomfortable feelings shows up on the screen um when it's necessary for navigating the whole intricacy of the dream this is a dream character it has to survive in the dream settings just like the dream character that I had in the at night actually when I was I had a nightmare I was dreaming about some villain some murderer going into the house and and and murdering people and I managed to defeat it twice but it was showing up in a different costume it was a different man eventually I managed to get out of the house and I started calling the police and I was explaining to the policeman the whole occurrence and as I was explaining it to him I realized that hey wait a minute it just doesn't really feel right does it it just kind of feels like a dream maybe I'm just sorry guy I'm maybe I'm just wasting your time maybe this is all dream this was in the dream I was dreaming that I was describing the dream and telling the policeman and as I was describing realizing it was a dream but this how different is this now this is the dream also and the dream character belongs in that dream and the dream character fully experiences the pains and the pleasure of the dream and all of that is appearance is known the character appears just as much as the whole room appears this room appears in consciousness with this body appearing in the consciousness hearing itself speak it all appears in the same awareness nothing can be separate no room no character no voice no pattern of avoiding uncomfortable feeling can be separate from that whole space of appearance from that whole dream is there a me is there a need for a me to be somehow separate yes there is a perspective yes I could put that camera is installed here so it watches from that perspective on the Zoom here the camera is in different locations that watches from that perspective we could include another camera there in that corner and it will give us another perspective of the room that's just the perspective like Dean was saying all the perspectives are also arising within the dream within the whole field of consciousness it within that non-conceptual awareness and wow seeing the whole show with all that multitude of conceptual images fleeting flickering around with the mind creating the ideas and Bob would say might won't stop unless you get Alzheimer's disease or stroke or something like that it will do whatever it is designed to do just like the kidney will do whatever it is designed to do and when it stops well it might be a remedy for it or it might just the home.

whole machine may expire, the whole projection. And in 100 years, probably all of those machines will not be here, or maybe less than that. And who cares, there's no future. Yeah, it's like the matrix with no body in the pod. Yes, that's a beautiful metaphor. The matrix is brought up a lot, you know, in these, like a lot of communities, ours, discussions of waking up and stuff like that, right? I was thinking about the prison, you know, the prison of belief. Is that it's, I have a painting at my house, which I really love, it was done by Jim Carrey. And it's got these, it's really colorful.

It's got these prison bars. You know, it's got really beautiful colors, but there is one black and white image of a butterfly. But everything else is color. And it's hands on this prison bar. And I just, I love this painting, but it says, and in that moment, he was freed from the prison of becoming. You could also be a prison of, you could be a prisoner of I am. Now we have this idea. That's, it's still, those, it would be, if I would ever meet Jim Carrey, I would say, if there's, just do one thing that make it look a little bit more perfect, is if you could have just like, sort of misty, literally sort of translucent see-through thoughts, words, ideas, concepts.

On those bars. Cause that's all they are. That's all it is. That's what they were talking about when they said the gateless gate. You know, what do you mean? How can it be a gateless gate? What gate? What do you mean? The gateless gate? There's no gate. It's a thought. It's a word. It's an idea. It doesn't exist without a thought. It's still, it's just an idea. That's it. It's a belief. That's it. And it's that, it's that. Cageless cage. Oh yeah. Oops. Sorry, got distracted. That was the neighbor. Yeah. That idea, you know, like James actually sent here a message. I can't actually put a heart on this.

That when Dean was explaining, are you trying to explain the peace that passes understanding? Lovely comment. Yes. That's the joy of that whole meeting. Grasping ungraspable, dwelling in that which is ineffable and beyond descriptions, beyond words, beyond language. What a joy. What a poetry. What a joy. Yes, James. And thank you for being with us. And thanks Dean for the pointing also, James says. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's a joy of the impossible task that no one does. It just happens. And it brings a lot of lightness and joy. It's a celebration. Yeah. Yeah. And I just drop it down. Dean, the cadence is key. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. The cages cage. Well, it's a cage, cage, but it's just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a good metaphor, but it's, it's like, that's really, I think we want to be boxed some. It's like, I don't know. Who's that? You ever heard the story about, do you want to build the perfect prison? You have the prisoners make it. that it's like it's you know they don't even know they're in prison I mean they don't even know they're incarcerated so they're never gonna try to escape you know what you don't know you're in but we're in we're incarcerated I think when we're attached you know what I mean when we're we're believing it's really it's like it's a belief that's the that's the prison is the believing okay we don't even know we're in it you know yeah yeah we don't even know we're in a tunnel little on the light at the end of it and you know that that's yeah perspective of many and and and everyone to some degree in certain areas you know it's absolutely stunning that or what or to whom but was this gateless gate cageless cage even created like no one actually did it no one no one actually create like life itself can seem to construct it's all seeming you know seem to construct this cage with these bars and each bar has got a different you know construct of belief and then somehow there's a seeming character inside a seeming cage hearing a seeming message ah and all of a sudden there's a seeming recognition and then all of a sudden the seeing sort of seems to alter slightly and the bar starts to dissolve it's freaking crazy seems seemed same same same same yeah yeah and another way of explaining and describing and sharing you know and exploring the whole meeting is is seeing it like all in terms of energy and and and every every movement there's a Spirit in all these venidos every thought, every breath, everything is nothing expressing as energy.

And the energy takes on all these different forms, all these different patterns, all these different sequences and explosions of, you know, colours and sounds and meaning and desires and concepts and neurobiology and infinite planets. And it's all gone. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I got caught up in the last week 24-7 building one of these, like, games online where you create these, you know, worlds, the castle one. And then, like, about a week and a half later, my opera updates and it's lost. It's gone. And, like, oh, there's the person being chucked up on the shore again at the beginning, you know. And, yeah, there was a lot more acceptance this time around.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot more. The transition to, like, it being completely meaningless was a lot quicker, put it that way, than, you know, a few years ago when the same thing happened. Isn't it incredible how this processor constantly updates? It updates, you know, it learns. It's an incredible machine that actually learns through every experience. Like, you could, like, look again at the animal and you see when the animal is, like, look at this beautiful cat. It's very, very tiny. named safe, trusting people, the other one also. One event, one trauma, and that cut will completely, its processor will completely rewrite the view of the dream, and it will start hiding or biting.

One event can totally screw the whole processing machine. And then it will take a moment, and it will settle down again. The factory settings will change. Like you say, you know, it would annoy you so badly, and now it very, very quickly lets go. It probably learned that getting angry at the machine wouldn't take it anywhere. It doesn't win you. I was working once with a lady who used to have this I wasted my potential type of a story, and she hated it so badly that she would punish herself in a thousand ways to spare God from the horrible, heavy work. God is so busy answering all the prayers, so she will do the work.

She will do the God's job for him by destroying and humiliating herself so that God doesn't have to do that. What an incredible, incredible conceptual representation of the world and the God and herself. She snapped out of it. We questioned it repeatedly, and eventually we laughed. How absurd. I've seen also in Byron Katie's schools people who would beat their children to the point of bleeding, and then surprise, surprise, those children ended up on the street or in jail. But she had to do that. She loved them. She was a true caring mother. If she didn't, she was a black, big black lady with alcohol addiction, living on the streets.

If she didn't do this thing, how she could possibly prepare those boys for the hostile world of white policemen in America? She did it with all her heart on the hand, the conceptual image. And when she saw it, the scream, the primal scream of absolute devastation, when she saw that this happened through her, the upset and the betrayal and the pain that she caused those kids were far, far beyond any pain they could ever experience from some strangers. From the policemen, from the system. Wow, what an incredible show. Seeing how it happened, she only saw first part, and that was like suicidal, that scream. Further on, Byron Katie showed her that she wasn't the doer, even of that.

She did not choose that concept. That was also a setting that has been installed through learning, in the learning machine through imitation. Who in the same mind would choose? There's no one there. It is self-correcting mechanism, self-updating mechanism, self-organizing universe. It's so helpful when it's seen, though. You know, just at least, all right, so there's both free will and no free will. There's the illusion of free will. Okay, so there is that appearance or the appearing that there's a choice that there's that. And just when it's just seen, there's a guy who is a neuroscientist and his name is, like, I don't remember his name right now.

He's a California Stanford University professor. I just love it when science comes in because there's something, somehow it seems to add validity to things. I don't know. It does. Just the belief system. Again, but they're willing to look into it. That's, like, part of it. It's the most common religion nowadays. Yeah, science. Yeah. Yeah. Well. It's, like, it's a willingness to investigate. That's what's nice about it, you know? But it doesn't take the observer effect into consideration. That's true. Yeah, it's true. All kinds of year. They're a little later. But this guy is saying, but the society seems to have respect for this. You know what I'm saying?

Like it did for Christianity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They like this. But this guy is saying that it's really this belief in free will that now we don't even look to the prior causes. We don't look to, well, maybe, you know, like the mother was actually trying to protect the child. You know what I mean? Because of this. We don't go into any of that. We just kind of write them off, you know what I mean? Without even considering the possibility that they didn't do it. There's no, they couldn't have done anything else. No. You know? And seeing that nothing else couldn't, could have happened.

Oh, that's, that's. Yeah. Well, I get that. Actually, that was a five MEO experience for me. Really? Because I was like doing a pretty hardcore psychedelic. And, and, and it was just the insight that arose was just like, oh my God, nothing could have been different. There's no, nothing could. And I don't know if it has anything to do with non-duality, but still it's like, it gets you out of this. And you're the first to believe that it could. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. When you, not the, no, it's not. Not true. Not true. Not true. And also here, James, at the same time, when you were saying says a quote, nothing is what it seems nor is it elsewhere or otherwise.

Yeah. Beautiful. Thanks James. Thanks Julia. Thanks everyone. And thanks everyone who was on Facebook and on Zoom. Thanks Dean. You're welcome. Thank you. Have a good one. Thank you.