This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
Okay, so welcome. Welcome everyone who is on Zoom, Facebook and you guys here. We'll see if anyone else joins us and we'll spin around. So back to the basics, you know, non-duality, the whole non-duality investigation is really about the natural state. Sometimes they call it grand names like a grand enlightenment or stuff like this, but really it is about... Very very basic ordinary awareness with which things are being known things are being cognized like the temperature in the room or the level of sound we don't have to think about it but we know we don't have to think about you know if there is everything okay with the body like kidneys or liver or anything we don't have to think about it and yet it is functioning And when the attention moves there, it is being noticed.
So that capacity to notice, the capacity to know, it is really called a natural state. That's why, because it's very, very natural capacity. The little baby is born with that capacity, is born with the capacity to slowly just know of its own existence, shine that light of being out of its eyes, and then slowly it gets programmed. It gets programmed to recognize the voice.the sounds, initially the sound of the caregivers and then perhaps images and then associate the images with, as it learns language, with symbols, with symbolic language. So that's really how the beautiful, magnificent biocomputer called the body-mind gets coded into making sense of the world and eventually asking the questions of life, universe and everything.
And finding out and looking for the purpose of life and for the purpose of my own existence and all that big philosophical questions and even conceive of the idea that there is something wrong with me that i don't belong i need to find myself or i need to find my tribe and all that stuff that comes with it so Everything that we are experiencing is actually because of the conditioned mind, because we look at the world and we see what we think about the world. I shouldn't be saying we, but this is a general human condition that we are looking around and we interpret the image rather than see that there are just shapes and colors appearing in awareness.
We interpret, we look at the moving cut andWe have all the knowledge about what the cat is, how the cat behaves. We even have memories whether this cat is a friendly one or is not friendly one. All the past that we perceive with the image of shape and form is downloaded. And more attention goes into what we know or what we understand than what we actually perceive. And the cut, it's also half the form of memory and is recognizing faces and sounds. And it is also moving towards the pleasure and avoiding pain. Oh, someone's done.But it doesn't have symbolic language. So it doesn't overlay all that is happening with the past and memories.
Hi, Jimmy. Grab a seat. We just started. We've been a couple of minutes late. Yes, so the way we perceive the reality right now is not the raw perception, like seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling anymore. Now the perception... Oh, yeah. It's adorned by all the interpretations, by what we think about what we see. Do we like it or we don't like it? What association does it make? And now you may have different association to that cat than I do. And you will have different private universe. Because everything else also is filtered through that program, that interpretation that has been installed right from the birth and even before the birth.
I'm just sorry. I'm just going to get that one open. Yeah, there you go.So coming back to the natural state, natural state lies underneath all that overlay of cloud of the interpretation of the mind, of that filter, that lens, lens of personality, lens of perception, lens that is sickened by, you know, like different experience of the tree will have the carpenter. And different experience of the tree will have the herbalist and the nature lover or you know it's like every single thing in nature is perceived through that lens that has been the software that has been programmed in the mind so the social conditioning I was having a little bit of a correspondence.
Now we're going to have a chat with someone who is socially conditioned to fear death because he believes to be the body. And that's... Oh, yeah. I have another person welcome in a zoomers. So fear of dying associated with being the body or psychological suffering or physical suffering associated with the identity that also comes from that lens of perception that also comes from the mind. If you actually look how the identity comes into existence, how the whole conditioncontains in it, in the language, contains the identity. When you start as a little child learning labels of everything around you and then associating feelings and preferences to everything that has been labeled, all that symbolic language, at some point, The body that you are using as that lens of perception, as a vehicle for knowing and seeing and hearing, gets a label also.
And Bob would use the example of a little Johnny. I am a little Johnny now. I am a good boy. I'm not so good. And then the Johnny grows bigger. A little Johnny is not really a pussy. It's not really answering that little label. It's not really coming close to the depth of the identity. So as he grows up, he adds more labels, more associations, more interpretations, and more preferences, and the lens gets thicker and thicker and thicker. And now, instead of seeing the world as it is, we see what we think of it. We see what we like in it, what we don't like, what we avoid.
And the whole identity gets formed because the liking and the disliking and the avoiding and the preferring.Always refers to the self, to the I. And the self is naturally associated with labeling the object. Sometimes it's just the body. Sometimes it's the mind. Sometimes it's the body-mind as a whole, the whole computer, the hardware and the software. So I am this. I am Katarina. I am Polish or Australian or whatever. And now I, as Katarina, I like this or I don't like that. And I, as this body-mind, prefer that food and that music. And this is personal. Now, if I believe in that particular conspiracy or religion, this is personal.
If anyone attacks that particular opinion, which, let's face it, how mine is it? Thousands of other people have the same sort of adaptation, the same virus of the mind infecting the system. How is it mine? And people go to war, nations go to war with other nations to protect that ideas, those concepts, those belief systems, because their identity is seeped in it. So who are you without your identity? Can you just for a moment, just for the heck of a mental exercise, put aside everything that you know about yourself, everything that other people along the life and the culture and the societysociety and teachers told you about you you are a boy or you are a man or you are Australian or you are Iranian whatever whatever the concepts put it aside and see who are you without any idea without any identity without any thought if the question who is even relevant because how could you answer a question who if you were not to use descriptions labels conceptsSo this is the invitation that non-duality presents.
See, experience directly without that overlay of interpretation. How does it relate to the center? How does it relate to me? It is not about losing the preferences. Again, if you look at this beautiful cat here at my feet, he has preferences and there's absolutely no problem with that. He has occasionally urges, which one could even call desires and aversions. There's absolutely no problem with that. The problem is when they become mine. And I own them and I'm attached to that. And now, without all that, if we just put it aside for a little moment,Who am I? Or again, is the question who even relevant? Without the idea, without a mental construct.
Am I even a body? If I don't have a concept of the body, how do I experience myself right at this moment? What is the content of that experience? Well, there is an appearance of the seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. But if I move the attention towards the source of attention, just sense that which is sensing.Experience the experience there, if there is any. See if there is anyone there who is experiencing. If you can find or locate anything or anyone inside or outside, anywhere, that you could call you or me, And if you can, if you by any chance, because really, honestly, how could you possibly find the object if you are the pure subjectivity?
But if you can find that there is a sense of meanness maybe arising somewhere in the upper body, sense of contraction or sense of location, how do you know it is there?Where do you know it from? That sense of me-ness, how big is it? How small is it? How precise is it? And again, how do you know? Where are you looking from? And then you will see that any object that arises in that field of experiencing is just an object, is just a phenomena, is something that mind has constructed because the attention is focusing in there. But that very attention trying to construct something following the instruction where is that attention isn't it more of what you are who you are that attending presence than the object I have a cat fur in my eye.
Thank you. And you interrupt me and ask questions or clarify or answer as well. So there's a clear invitation to look and strip away everything. And like, you know, you mentioned... Something interesting about attention and the movement of attention and perhaps an opportunity to see where attention moves.from how it moves or to focus the attention on the source of the attention itself so how does one do that I love those questions they are they honest and I remember having those questions myself and I know he's just embodying a seeker because He knows there is no one there to do that. But it is a really good question.
How can you not do that? That's the reverse of it. Like in relaxing the attention, when you actually follow, when you watch the mind and you watch how the attention is moving, just look the attention, your attention. I'm going to just spin it around to include you in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, So we have Jimmy and what's in there? Emma. Emma. And Haman. And we have here, we have Anna, David, and John, and Sarah. And, okay, back to the... Back to the question, and we have a couple of cats still with us. I find this attention is absolutely fascinating. What an amazing thing to notice attention.
And it illuminates everything into life. Whatever it is attending to,becomes alive, becomes real, and seemingly real anyway. But the movement of attention itself is just what a life force that's actually moving it and dictating the way it focuses in, focuses out, narrows into narrative, to imagery, to thoughts, to feelings, to sensations. It's such a stunning thing to be fascinated with attention itself. But there's no one to cultivate the fascination with it. I think it just cultivates itself through... How does it cultivate itself? The conditioning that created... This thing to become, you know, to believe in its separateness has somehow the same life, 10,000 things, as you call it, that came into being to seemingly create this condition being to be stuck and believing that it's limited to this body and it's going to die.
All of a sudden, that breaks. Something happens and that cycle seems to be broken, intruded or cut off in some way. And the energy seems to change from focusing on all that external. Or all that narrative into the processof which it's all formulating in itself. And attention is one of the absolute keys to it all. And when I say that, I don't mean, oh, I have the key and you should know the key. I don't mean that. I just mean that life itself has created the conditions, I guess, in a way that all of a sudden... The old system and the old way of navigating collapses and things like attention become absolutely far more fascinating than the contents.
And the contents are still equally fascinating too, but wow, what illuminates the contents is absolutely... Is brilliant. And I guess this is where so-called spirituality, the concept of spirituality steps in. Although we were doing the census here in Australia and I had the girls through painting on Tuesday, And we realized that, you know, like, oh, we have no religion, but we either we don't really even have spirituality sort of a system. Like, you know, what it means to be spiritual, like, oh, another concept. Yeah, doesn't really feel right. But actually looking at the light that illuminates the whole appearance. Looking at the spirit of that whole appearance, looking at this, because what is the attention really?
It's just another label.is just another word pointing out to that life essence. Like, yes, it brings to life whatever comes within that field. Like there is a field of attending or the field of experiencing. And whatever arises in that field simultaneously is attended to. There is no separation between an object and following with the mind of the object. If anything, it's just kind of, it acts simultaneously. Life force or life essence or the love of being the love of being which appears as every single appearance it experiences and it glimpses itself that attention that love of being appearing as everything but again as you said and I love it you know instead of instead of focusing on the objects within that field me want this you actually go back to that essence or the heart or of a spirit and look at that movement directly where is the attention moving Oh, the thought came up, attention.
Obviously, attention gave it life. Without attention, thought is just a potentiality, it's just a possibility, it doesn't really exist. Wow, yesterday, it got attended to straight away. It came up.with the mental image, with the feeling, with whatever we can, labels, memory. This has shown up and got attended to, which is the same thing. So that attention is that field of unified or infinite possibilities taking shapes. You know thinking of yesterday oh there is yesterday thinking of tomorrow oh there is a tomorrow oh thinking of that moment right now seeing hearing tasting touching smelling wow there it is right now so that field that energy appearing as everything but instead of again focusing on the objects and relating the objects how do i like it do i want it do i want to add it to myself but no but just just seeing the whole show the whole dance the whole movement arising in that space like awareness And now again, it comes, if that attention is dispersed, is free, is completely...
Relaxed or it even focuses on itself which kind of almost collapse the movement and it lands in absolute stillness And welcome Ben, joining us. Exactly like what I'm saying, you know, the moment it focuses onthe chair, it also, and there's a narrative that that's a chair, there's also, that exists because there's not a chair as well. It automatically brings into being the opposite, you know, and so if I notice on, if it's focused and believed in that that's, you know, that's all there is, everything else is negated in the field. It has to negate. That's how it focuses. So it's like we're talking about like a relaxation of attention, but that's just a word, you know, that's just a term to explain it.
But when attention seems to be more relaxed, all of a sudden the whole infinite field, infinite potentiality comes into play. But when it's focused on and believed in to be the cause of your reality and experience, then it's absolutely limited. It's bound and every interrelated opposite. Is also comes into being.And it's quite magnificent how it does come into being. And it comes into being, watched from that field of relaxed attention, it comes to being to be actually celebrated. Suddenly, anything that shows up, nothing is personal. I had a headache in the morning, like, oh, headache. There's no crying, no complaining. There was no suffering. That's what's arising.
I have headache once in 10 years or so. And it's just, aha, okay, that's what's arising. There is no translation happening that this is me, this is personal, I am here and I am not here. In my direct experience, there is no division. There is no separation between this here is me and this out here is not me. In my direct experience, and if you really look carefully with a completely open mind, you might relate to the same experience. There is a field of knowing or experiencing. I can't say what I am. I have concepts that there is a body inside our guts and brains and all that stuff.
But if I move that concept aside and I actually experience the pure being, the pure being contains the whole content of the gaze. It contains some subtle vibration.It contains the feeling of a butt on a chair or the back of the chair. It contains the sound of this... so-called my voice it contains everything I am the field with everything that it contains I can't without the idea separate where I begin and the field ends or the field begins and I end the idea that I am within the skin doesn't fit the experience because everything that is seen everything that is that is heard and everything that is touched does not belong it isn't inside that meat bag it is right here and the here to limit the here to the shape of the body takes the concept takes the belief and we'll have to innocently
say most of the people actually hold that belief very dearly through the self-hypnosis lasting a lifetime and that's actually quite convenient for navigating within the world of form as a dream character this is a dream character moving through the dream world just like when i sleep at night It is another character also navigating in the another world while this one is lying flat on the bed.
So the dream character is a convenient navigational tool. But direct experience is always the open field of consciousness, open field of knowing. And within that field of knowing, there are hands sticking out of it and legs sticking out of it. I know there are hands and legs because the labels have been learned. And there is this computer arising in it and the room and you guys all of that completely inseparable from the field of consciousness which is how I experience myself to be. I am the knowing. I am the field of consciousness. I am the attention. As a potentiality and within me that attention moves within me it goes from the left to the right and it listens and it hears and it has no idea what it is going to say but it is hearing it as it shows upAnyone cannot relate to that experience.
Yes, but I feel like I'm contained to this body. I feel like this is the centre and then there's a universe outside and, you know, I have a visceral sense of feeling that I am this body or that this body is real and solid. Yeah. Yeah, lovely. Yeah, it's like the feeling versus thought, the feeling versus mental image. People very often say, yes, but I feel, and then thoughts come. You know, like the feeling, you know, sometimes we get into his car, he's got a really big truck. I get the feeling that this parking spot is not big enough. I'm not going to fit in.
A feeling. This is I. I'm this big truck. And I am not going to fit in. It's the same sort of a feeling. It may not have certain components of it, like maybe rumbling in the stomach. But it might if the driver is inside. So that is the same sort of a thing. And liking the body to a costume or the car or the coat, Bob would say, you know, you say you know it in your language that you are not your body, just as well as you are not your coat or your car or your house. Equally, you know you're not your body.you're thinking or mind because you also say my body and you say my mind so you are wearing this body and how this body was born that size and now this body is this size and it may start decaying and it may lose a limb here and there hopefully not lose some blood or lose some estrogens, whatever it goes with.
And it's still a costume. Did you have a question, Haimon? I want to say a cell can double. One cell can double and two cells can be four, four can be eight. Yes. Whoever says, I know how that capability comes from and explain it, it is not possible for that person to exist in the universe because there's no explanation for that. There's no possibility of explaining it. And if someone explaining it, no one's going to get convinced. Yeah. Sorry. And non-duality invites the current experience, the current experience that is non-conceptual, like to actually tap into the universe of different teachers, of different categories and different experiences and every spiritual level by all means social level sexual level all of this is just whoa the world within the world is just a multiverse withinthe imagination or within the mind there's nothing wrong with that they are all absolutely beautiful and they are all here to be celebrated including the city powers the walking on the water and the healing and all of that is absolutely totally to be celebrated but again non-duality brings the attention back to that which is happening directly in the direct experience not necessarily in the realm of thinking you know like you said beautifully so all secondhand information That is true.
So this secondhand, thirdhand information, you know, religions passed on from eons. Just leave it. Leave it in the middle. And the legends about you know the past healers and and and beautiful totally who is not to appreciate a good story when the attention goes and watches that phenomenal story story of my sister or story of the holocaust or story of great heroes and great saviors and wow beautiful but again being able to distinguish from that relaxed attention ah this is a story This is not.the current moment here now in which there is an aliveness and because of that aliveness because of that presence of attention the story can be actually seen so there is something prior to the story it's not prior it arises simultaneously but If I was unconscious, I couldn't even appreciate a good story.
So the consciousness, the presence of consciousness is, this is what we celebrate prior to celebrating the story. And it's, yeah, the stories of, like I said, I had a couple of meetings, individual meetings, which were really... Beautiful this week but I also had this correspondence about a man who is fearing his death what a story what a beautiful story of dread appreciation for life love of living love of being being able to witness the presence but there is also a physical pain in the body there is also a suffering Wow if you were unconscious or dead you couldn't even suffer Even that, and no one wants to die.
Even people who commit suicide, if you offer them that all your pains and all your issues will be lifted, well, they won't die. They'll be happy to be. Even the impulse to shorten the suffering.is coming from the love of being. But again, coming back to that present moment, the beautiful realization, I just love speaking with people for that very reason, you know, like little insights that what I'm experiencing right now, and this is after a few years of hanging in with Bob, very sparingly, once a year conversation or twice a year, watching some videos, and suddenly, Wow. I don't really see that there is anything wrong anymore.
If the mind is not stealing the show, and even if it is, even if I get lost in the mind and I'm dwelling on something that someone did or said, When I look, oh, where is it right now? It's gone. And what is wrong with right now? Nothing. But yeah, yeah, wait a minute. But 15 minutes ago, I was thinking, oh, is Tanya going to come or is not going to come? Oh, my gosh. But how about now? Now is nothing wrong. Every time you just pause, relax the attention out of the current movie that is playing, is displaying in the field of imagination, or focus that attention, that helps relaxing too.
On that which is happening presently, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, sensing, breathing,That which is happening presently. There is nothing wrong. Oh, there is a pain. Yes, but in that pain, appearing on the screen, unless there is a thought that it shouldn't be here, okay, that's what's showing up. But then there is a story about it. How do I get rid of it? Without that story, appropriate action is still going to arise. I can tell you I'm watching the cats for 10 years. They actually do quite well with anything that arising without the thought. Look how he found himself a perfect location and he's getting all the parts and he did absolutely nothing.
There was no thought, there was no convincing. Just following the instinct, following the intuition. And we have... No, I thought there were comments. They're good mornings, just good mornings. Good morning. Good morning, guys. And again, from Facebook, if you ever feel moved to join us and say a word, that would be lovely. And anyone who is with us on Facebook, if you would like to say a word or contribute something or ask a question or share your insight. I meant on Zoom. Yes, I'm talking to Zoomers, but on Facebook as well. And you guys in the room too.Yeah, like you talk about in this present moment, what is occurring.
And the present moment, you know, it's a cliche term almost. It's used very often. And it's so immediate. It's so, it's beyond now. Like even using the term now implies a before and an after. And it's more, it's closer than that. It's so immediate that there is actually nothing other than that immediacy. It's always been immediate. It can't be past and future. All ideas of past and future are always this presence, this right now, this nowness, this... immediacy. And in that is where the stories dwell. In that is where the universe appears. So, you know, and you can look back at your life and look back at your memories and childhood and whatever, and you'll notice that anything was always this.
It was always immediate. It was always existence itself appearing as this story or that story or this perception or that emotion or that sensation. You can't recall a second of it because it's just now. It's so immediate that...It actually, it's like it breaks down time altogether and time and ideas like of the past and the present and the future are thought forms. And it's like they converge into just immediacy. And you realize that in your direct experience, you're actually not experiencing time. You're experiencing it. All there is, is that immediacy. And it's the collapsation of time. And you realize that time is relative. Time is as relative as every other aspect of the manifested dream.
It's as relevant and as real or unreal as any other part of it. And it has no substance in itself because the immediacy is in what all these forms appear. And this time is like a form in the appearance. And the stories, you know, like these stories. I guess, you know, we started talking a little bit about attention and then we went into, and perception, how there's a bunch of conditioning, a bunch of processes, whether you want to look at it from neurobiology and chemistry and physiology, whether it doesn't matter in which way you want to look at it psychologically, butthe wiring and the body and all this mechanism is programmed in a sense to view things or to perceive in a certain manner.
And did anyone do it? Was there a creator of this? So you know instantly, you know like intuitively that even your perceptions, even your stories, even your point of view or way in which something is viewed is absolutely limited to all that mechanism. So are you that mechanism? You know, are you all, you are all of it? Or can you be limited to that particular mechanic? So all of a sudden, attention doesn't focus on the so-called perceiver because there isn't an actual perceiver, but the perception itself is also... Is also not as real as what was once believed. And in that unreality of it, everything else starts to become more available, whereas once it was occupied with the attention of belief that I am the perceiver and my perception is that you're good and he's bad and this is right and this is wrong and this is up and this is down and you should be doing what I say or what I think and you should be thinking.
All those kind of ideas collapse.And furthermore, like all of them, what are they collapsing? What's collapsing? Ultimately, they're all funneled back into the greatest concept in which seems to hold it all together, and that's the idea of a me, myself, and my. And everything else out there, supposedly out there, is related to that me. You know, that tree, I see that tree. You know, it's all about me. And, you know, once... How can that be true? I mean, all it is is an act of perception, or sorry, act of attention focused on a perception that has been controlled by the universe, that has been made into being through life itself.
But to make that your reality, to limit it, to confine it, to believe it to be your actual life, to be me in my life, who's in this body, seeing things in this way, is going to die, is where all the problems arise. And it's also where everything can become free because all of it, every bit of it is included as well. There's nothing that can be excluded. And it's all appearing in this space-like awareness, all of it, every bit of it. So in one sense, this is the great perfection.And this is non-duality. And this is what the sort of meeting points to in the absolute sense that there is this field and everything is included in it and nothing can be excluded and it includes every little aspect of it.
There's nothing that you could possibly... Conceive or perceive or imagine that can be outside it. And so it's all inclusive, it's all encompassing. Yeah, wow. You know, there's a wow. Like there's a, the limited functioning sort of doesn't seem to be a place in which navigating my daily living has to happen from that kind of area any longer. And something, something, very ordinary and yet totally different can emerge.It was lovely when you said actually perceivable and conceivable appearances. That was one of the insights, one of the people I spoke this week. She said it landed really, really powerfully that everything that is cognized that is noticed that is known will either be a perception or a thought either will be a mental image or a thought that's it that's really simplifying a dream to the point of like aha there is a field a space a cognizing emptiness a capacity for knowing and everything that is arising in this capacity is either a perception it could be a sensory perception could be the tactile it could be the auditory it could be visual but it's a perception or it's a mental image it's an imagination a concept a construct a mental construct that's all there is to it so there is a capacity there is a sentience there is a consciousness And there is a content.
And she said, shit, you know, what am I in that? I'm not the perception. I couldn't be a perception because the perception is an object. I couldn't be a concept. I couldn't be a mental construct either. How could I? It is arising, is coming and going.So what am I? Is that question even necessary at this point? Because I remember when the mind collapsed, in my case, the question, who am I, suddenly became irrelevant. If there is no one there, it's just that space with the capacity to notice the different perceptions, different sensations, and different concepts. If there is just that cognizing capacity, that witnessing presence, who is there to even ask, who am I?
There's no one there who gives a shit. No one there who wants to define itself, limit itself with concepts, with identity. No wonder, and it's been over 10 years, never idea of identification was seductive anymore. Because I heard of people, oh, I had the revelation. And then the next thing, the mind owned it. It came, it said, I, the mind, had the revelation. And I am now enlightened. And for a year, I was enlightened. And then it moved. Wow, what a story. And what has happened in that witnessing presence? The story is a concept. Again, it's a perception or it's a conception. Perceivable, conceivable. That was, he said, Nisargadatta, I think he had a little quote of nothing perceivable or conceivable could be what I am or everything perceivable, conceivable.It was just an appearance.
And I am the field, the space, the conscious awareness, the cognizing emptiness in which all those things, and that includes the body. Isn't body perceivable? And like John says, in Tibetan Buddhism, thinking is just the sixth sense. Yes. Just more content. That's it. That's it. And I think we have geotis here on Facebook. What's wrong with right now if you don't think about it? It's a constant companion. Beautiful. And who are you if you don't think about it? What are you if you don't think about it? Is there a past if you don't think about it? This is again the whole non-duality bubble is about discarding all the third-hand information, second-hand information, discarding all the content of the perceptions and the conceptions, all discarding content of imaginations, religions, philosophical systems.
And looking directly for oneself just now what am i if i don't think about it without the concept is that question even relevant but am i not am i not at any point What can I say about the presence, about the being?I'm here. But what am I? Why would that cognizing capacity even need a definition of I? Why would it even need a limitation? I am small. I'm inside this or this. What for? Those descriptions are another arising phenomena. They're not relevant. They're just a changing content. And this is sometimes called the investigation of the reality of what's real. And that which is unreal is that which constantly changes.
It disappears when you look closer. So where are the concepts? They're gone. You don't think about them. They're gone. So how real are they, the phenomena? Where are, like Cayman was saying, you know, the cells in the body that divide and die? Unreal. What's left when you negate everything that is changing? What is left? What doesn't change? Earlier, you know, we talked a little bit about conditioning and how the conditioned bodily mechanism sort of is designed to see things in a certain way. Who or what are you without that conditioning? So we talked about it to explain a certain thing and yet there is no conditioning at the same time.All there is is this, and this thisness is the immediacy again.
You know, so I'm not limited to any, even though we talked about the conditioning, there's no limiting factor of conditioning. There is none. In the absoluteness, there is just this. Yeah, cool. And I think we have a comment here. Michael says, love it. Missing you guys. Watching from boule heads and enjoying the sand and the spiel. Good on you, Michael. You can join us on Zoom, too, if you like. We need some contributions. It's too quiet. It is supposed to be a conversation. Oh, there you go. I don't really know how to articulate this, but I'm talking about what's left. I just can't remind me like sometimes.
I feel like life is like a game, like a video game. Yes. And so it's like living my life like a Sims character. Getting all the things that I want and be in the street that I want to live in and go to the places that I want to go and do activities. And that's like the identity of that character of that game. Yeah, so what's left, you can sometimes pause the game.Like that's like the only time that I can by myself disconnecting from that character, which is kind of what I would identify this group as like what I'm related to. And yeah, what's left is...
that character and all my other characters but yes i just yeah i mean a simulation but you're still here and yeah watching in my simulation watching the whole show including the character of emma yeah yeah so what is it that is watching Isn't it a mystery, absolute mystery? Isn't it like... Some kind of creator? Yes, that's just whole field of creation. Seeing everything inside it, you know, Emma is inside it. All the other characters are inside it. Inside that cognizing field, that omnipotence, omnipresence. Like, wow, how can you not from that vantage point just say, wow.Amazing. And then viewing the whole dream, whole human adventure from that perspective.
Isn't it amazing? Isn't it freeing? Absolutely. Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you. Go on, Jimmy. I'm just sitting here sleepily. I love being here and just feeling the words.Wash through, wash over. And just this spaciousness and awareness. It's like when you're here, there's nothing to grasp onto. Everything becomes a bit more... Peaceful. Relaxed. I especially loved when we were talking about...What is the issue? There's no actual thinking of any past. And there's this... Yeah, awareness. Sense of presence. There's like an emptiness, but also like a sense of fullness. So it's hard to articulate because it seems to defy. Seems to defy description. Yeah. Yeah. The description. Yeah, indescribable.
That's beautiful food, actually. Yeah. Ineffable. Undescribable. I had another conversation today with, not today, a few days ago with another friend who used to be a seeker and a seeking dropped away. And the way it landed for him was also lovely. It was... Seeing through the futility of looking for the answer through the mind in the mind which is the same thing the same thing as the lady i spoke with and she realized that everything is just the appearance it's conceivable perceivable appearance justfor him to realize that looking for the answer is always in the imagination, is always in the mind. Where else would you look?
Whatever you look for, listening to another guru, watching another video, looking for another hints, always somewhere in the sphere of conceptual realm, always in the imagination. And wow, realizing that this is never going to happen, whatever you're going to find is just another mental image. Just another appearance. Even if you imagine that there is an answer that could be put in mental image or concept, That answer would still be an appearance, even if you discover it tomorrow. If it's not right here, right now, is not valid this is the unreality that which changes that which you discard with the neti neti reality is that which is that which never changes which is already right here right now And right here, right now, is that cognizing capacity, which even make the seeking possible, looking for the mind.
But when he realized how futile it was, the search just stopped.The mind, which is just again the translating algorithm, which always interprets the world, and one of its functions is that illusion of control that is, oh yeah, this is my job. I have to make sure the body is safe. I have to make sure that it's maximized pleasure. I have to, you know, and the idea behind that I is the illusion of control. It's a software, it's algorithm, there's no I there, there's no one there. In that moment of realizing that this algorithm looking for the answer somewhere in the search can't find anything but another mental image, another object, the natural surrender happened.
It just rested its case.like the question, the questioner, that what it's seeking, like the answer, the witness of the questioner, all of them are the appearance, appearing in this immediacy. And so how can there be any validity or absolute truth in any of them? All there is is the appearance and it contains all of it. Questioner, questions, witness of a questioner, potential answers, seeking for answers, movement towards answers, all of them actually appear in that space. And they all appear as appearances. As like vibrating patterns of energy appearing as a question or as an answer or as a movement. And that's it, you know, like they could, what would they, you know, it's almost like that recognition in itself is what diffuses all the all the actual energy of belief that was once sort of seemingly invested in it.
Yeah. And I like the Sims thing. I used to play Sims when it first came out. And I was fascinated because I would play this little game and I would realise that my own life was like this. There was something...really kind of mechanical and interesting and repetitive. And then, you know, I would watch my own nature and see the tendency to repeat was part of like the machinery that was wired. And then, you know, but... I guess, you know, witnessing yourself as a character, you know, like the attention changes. It moves. Sometimes you're in, you know, you're in the bank teller and you, this is my name and this is my address and this is my whatever, like you're giving details from a place.
Sometimes you're walking down the path, like attention, everything, there is no limitation, there is no position, there is no state in which anything is viewed. All of them are included. And whether it's a grand, you know, witnessing where you're actually looking at everything as a simulation or whether it feels more here or there, circumstances, life. Changes the way in which the appearance appears all the time. And it doesn't matter anymore. That's the freedom is that there is no, there is absolutely no preference for a position because there is no position in which the viewing must be or the witnessing must be or the attention on attention or the presence oror awareness or what's wrong with right now.
These don't have to be any more mantras or any more instructional or anything like that because everything is included and everything is a movement in that appearance, appearing as whatever that is, and the viewing of it as well. Because the viewing, the way it's viewed, changes. It's always changing. And the real freedom and enjoyment in the whole game, because it's one big, you could say, let's just say it's one big simulation, one big stimulation, one big simulation, you know, is... Is that's that's it there's nothing other than the and then the game itself it's a dream exactly how do you achieve it how do you get there what do i do give me 50 bucks you cheat Yeah, that's the joke, you know.
How do I get there? What do I do? Which I? The dream character? The one that has been just witnessed going to the toilet or buying groceries? What is that dream character going to do? What can that dream character do? Oh, sit in practice and meditate, do mantra. It doesn't matter what the dream character does in its dream. It doesn't matter.The paradox is the dream character can do absolutely nothing. It doesn't need to do absolutely nothing. Not only the dream character is not the doer, the dream character works on autopilot 100% of the time. The dream character is the body-mind which, what does it do about having their liver work and use, you know, like filter the toxins?
What does it do about their heartbeat, the dream character? Nothing. What does it do about the capacity to look and see and notice and distinguish? Nothing. All on autopilot. What does it do about its preferences? Oh, yeah, but I can change preferences. I like this music, but I can make myself like another one. Provided I have a thought and what does it do to have that thought to even be inspired to change the preference what does it do about any of it it can't do absolutely anything so the way way out is in relax Just surrender the idea of being a doer, idea of controlling the show.
See how life is leaving you. See how that whole dream character moves on autopilot and see how even that is not excluded. You are the cognizing emptiness looking through these eyes. So that body is included. This is your virtual reality suit.if you will oh this is the dream character the same sort of different character the character is changing you know when you when you dream at night that one is lying flat and another character can fly or do other things but this is your yeah if we go with simulation i don't know that concept much but It is a virtual reality suit. It's perfectly capable of seeing, having, you know, capacities.
And I think we have someone has the hand up. Ben. Oh, Ben, come in. Hi, Ben. Would you like to unmute?Ben, we see you have the hand up. Is it by mistake or would you like to contribute, ask questions? Oh, there you are. You have to unmute. Hi, would you like to unmute? No? Yeah, we need you to unmute. I can't unmute you. You have to do it yourself, Ben. Yeah, I can just do that. Everyone. We'll just keep going. Oh, you got you. Yeah, you work it out, Ben, and we give voice to Ginny.There can be a real fear of letting go and surrendering.
Yeah, yummy. And it doesn't make sense either. Like, I remember recently watching a football game, watching my team, and wanting a certain result, and at the same time being able to just... Witness it. But there was a tension inside that didn't want me just to watch it without an invested interest. Like there was a fear of letting go of not caring. Pleasure. Yeah.And the illusion of choice. I can choose now. I know. The illusion of choice. Yeah. So cute. Yeah. And if I'm not there putting, like willing them to win, it feels like they're less likely to win. You're betraying them. Yeah. So cute. Yeah, and just being able to smile at it and watch it and just, yeah, enjoy.
Enjoy the show. I'd like to share something about it. I remember, you know, everything you're saying, I can relate completely in the experience and memory. And I remember there was something shifted. And all of a sudden, I was watching football with absolute dispassion. And I thought, ah, this is what it's like to watch it in non-dual awareness. Right, right, right. Now I've mastered it, you know, now I've got it now because, oh, there's no emotions here. Oh, yes, it's just a game, ball through goals, you know, elation, commiseration, whatever, you know, and it was like, oh, yeah, that's just what happens. And that's all conceptual bullshit, every little bit of it.
It is like...It is like the character that doesn't exist all of a sudden has grabbed these non-dual concepts, has incorporated them somehow, not that anyone's doing it, and mind you, this is just a way of speaking and explaining it, has... And now has upgraded its character-ness to become this non-dual character. Boring. Yeah, and it was boring and slightly debilitating and yet, you know, you could talk a bit of the non-dual lingo, you could, you know, and there was like a convincing psychologicalness about it. There's a psychology about it, like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I won't help that thing because that's not good or bad. It doesn't matter and life's just doing what it does.
And that's all, every bit of it is like absolute, and it's like upgrading the false character. It's like giving Mickey Mouse and getting the author and the creator of Mickey Mouse and colouring him in better and making him move with more language quality and upgrading the software in which he performs. And it's a joke. Like, there's no... And it feels, you know, I remember it felt like somewhat some sort of freedom at the start. And the freedom was a prison in disguise, really. It was just another form of a prison.And I remember it. And I'll tell you, you know, I can share it now because the football is just fantastic, as fantastic as everything else.
And it has all those qualities and none of those– and, you know– It's a totally, it's rich. It's a tapestry of colour and sound and emotions and feelings and people's expressions and all these are just, it's like a tapestry of full, you know, and there's feelings and there's everything involved in it. As opposed to that drone. There is nothing happening now. I am not even, I am witnessing the, you know, and it's, that's just another, it's a trap that I do remember. And as you mentioned, and I think it's a common sort of trap. I just thought I'd share that. But thank you. Yeah, that's actually, yeah, that's brilliant.
That's beautiful. Ben, yeah, he says he can't unmute. Can you try and click on that little mic? I think you might be unmuted now. Can you actually say something now? Can you hear me? Oh, yes, we can hear you. We can't see you, though. Your camera is off now. Oh, I don't. I'll sort of put it on, but it's a bit embarrassing. Why? Okay, that's okay. We can hear you. I had to get my son to go to Zoom settings and work that out for me, but as long as you can hear me. I just, something I've noticed.over my sort of time of my journey, if for want of a better word, is that I'll lose interest in non-duality when either I'm very busy or things are going well.
Like if I'm travelling well and feeling good, non-duality all of a sudden, you know, gets put on the back burner or I don't even want to look there because I don't want to consider that sort of stuff. But it's frustrating. I had a job a few years ago for about three years and it was super intense. And non-duality, I don't think I thought about it for three years. So is that just something I should accept or what? I mean, I imagine that's not too unusual, but it worries me because sometimes life is good, you know, for a period of time and non-duality always takes a back seat.
When I'm struggling, all of a sudden non-duality is the most important thing in my life. Yeah, and see, both of them are just the content of awareness. Both of them are just where the attention goes. Just like Dean was expressing, the dream unfolding us, oh, I am above the football now, I'm above everything now, it's just, you know, or... I'm completely engaged and appreciating every little facial expression of every player. That's the content of the dream. Not one is better or worse than the other. It really doesn't matter what the dream is.dream character does in the dream whether the dream character is obsessing about the rock band or whether the dream character is obsessing about getting rich or obsessing about non duality it doesn't matter you are the awareness in which the dream unfolds and obviously you know if there is dissatisfaction it often prompts you know like the non duality concepts become an escape and become a fantasy and the search of that state in which I'm above becomes a dream within the dream sometimes when there is a suffering or boredom or when there is intense longing or love of being, then the investigation is, true investigation is prompted.
Not just the hypnotizing oneself with the ideas of a better future in which I'm not tormented anymore, but the true investigation. What's real? What's true? And this is what really matters. Whether you are very, very busy watching football or you have a very, very intense job or even in the intense relationship or whatever it is, how much appreciation for the appearance of the dream is there in that relaxed witnessing presence that you recognize yourself to be. That's the only thing that really matters.Because if there is that relaxed presence in which the dream appears, there is already a little bit of a, and again, the relaxation is the key, a little bit of an extra respite.
And the content will be changing. The content is always secondary. The freedom is regardless of whether the life gets intense or pleasant or unpleasant. This is why it is called freedom. It doesn't matter what happens. I'm always here prior to the happening. I don't know if that answers the question. Another important part maybe, sorry. You said you don't think about it when you're busy and this and that. I think one of the greatest things about non-duality is not to think about it. It's not a concept that needs unravelling. It's not an idea or a philosophy that needs to be learnt. It's not something that's actually practised.
Something to practice, something to, you know, like, so not thinking about it is a quiet little blessing too because, you know, I know some people who the best thing for them is probably that they don't think about it. That would probably be the most non-dual thing they could do is not think about non-duality because it's another, like you said, like an obsessive or an important kind of philosophy or fantasy or whatever.And that's not what's been sort of what's been shared here really is the whole non-duality, one, one without a second. And that one is the inclusion of everything. And there's no, there's no, it's, and all of it is unreal.
Every, every single iota, this is a dream. And it's all the dream. So you can't think your way out of the dream. You can't think your way into the dream because it's all, it's all dream. So, yeah, don't worry. Don't worry. And remember, you don't have a choice. Thoughts are arising, whether they are thoughts about non-duality or about non-non-duality. I hear you. You say, you know, like sometimes it is the most important thing in the world. And then it goes on the backseat and it feels like you are betraying the love of your life or your philosophy. I remember I've been there too, also. But if you realize that you really are not the doer and you really, really, really don't have a choice of what the thought is going to come next, then the worry has no space.
There is no place for that worry anymore. And at least that amount of suffering is, you know, like being in a space of curiosity, of discovering. Where is the attention traveling now? Is it traveling to a football? Or is it traveling towards non-judgment?or is it traveling towards the work or is it traveling you know like you are the field stillness you are the stillness with the capacity to see capacity to see the movement of attention curious capacity innocently not only curious but also completely open, non-judgmental, free. So there is no particular preferred situation that, you know, oh, I'd be superficial and I won't get, you know, Bob used to be involved with football and then the involvement dropped away.
And so what? It doesn't matter. I used to be involved in loving my cats and it didn't drop away. And again, what does it matter? There is a guy in so-called non-dual field that says when his mind opened up, he's instantly stopped loving his children. Well, what does it matter? Again, the content may be changing. Maybe he loves them back again now. Who cares is the content of the dream.It's like if you are curious and see where is the attention moving, what it is engaging with, then it's really the worry and taking credit and feeling guilty and feeling that you are betraying something that was important, like Jimmy was sharing, you know, that was...
That feeling is just another appearance. Take it as seriously as every other appearance, as the birds singing in the forest. Wow, oh, sweet. Guilt, ooh, sweet. You know, they're just being completely free from owning that feeling. That is the call, that is the calling to just relax from identifying that this is me, this is my duty, this is how I should be, this is wrong to not feel that calling or to forget about my mission. Even that feeling of wrong is just another appearance. You have the comment? Just Emmanuel says, listening while driving back to Sydney from the Blue Mountains, bring on that curious, free, open capacity.
Thank you. Wow. Yeah, that's beautiful. And I don't know, Ben, if that... Brings anything up anything else or or is thatNo, that, yeah, that certainly helps. I think it's just the, yeah, again, it's just mind games. But I think that I feel like I'm going to just, like part of me just wants to just forget the whole thing and just leave as I always have because it's not so bad really. But there's the... You know, that curiosity or whatever it is, is, you know, it's embedded in me too. It's not, I mean, it's all just, as I said, it's just mind games. So you've clarified that you've sort of, yeah, you've put me back in my place, which I'm happy to be put back in.
Yeah, maintaining and nurturing that curiosity, that openness, that relaxed, natural, open field of knowing. Sometimes it happens like naturally in life. Sometimes few pointers thrown out here and their help. And life resolves it. Life is self-organizing. So if you need to hear a few pointers, you'll find yourself tuning in for 10 minutes or for 15 minutes. Or you may find yourself not tuning in and just finding it within yourself. Be curious how it is happening moment to moment. Yeah, and it's organic too. Yes. It's happening in spite of me. Like, yeah, I can see, like, yeah, I can see that. I find when I'm about to go to bed at night, like, everything slows down.down and there is this peace that comes over me um you know just because i suppose it's the end of the day and what have you and uh it's a similar feeling really it's like everything all this noise that's been going on all day is just just disappear somehow yeah noticing the present moment especially when you know you close your eyes and you fall asleep and you just notice that mind dropping stopping stopping the processor stopping the memorizing just just dying wow it's just such a place Yeah.
And as much as that present moment can be noticed, that moment of just...And noticing, you're always here. But what you are, you can't know without the thought. But that you are, you can't deny it. You're always here. No one can go wrong here. No one can stuff it up. You can't stuff it up. You can't try or not try. You can't fix or improve or change or modify it. Like, the good news is it's doing itself as itself to itself. You know, so there's something really... Liberating about that too. And this curiosity that we're speaking about is no one's doing that either. It just comes up.
And the curiosity, there's curiosity that one can have for topics or subjects or ideas, but this is a... This is a universal type of curiosity. It's curiosity at existence, the curiosity of aliveness, curiosity of your beingness, of being alive and actually, you know, not necessarily the details of the content, but not discluding anything, and yet just the curiosity of how it seems to come into being.and how it seems to be functioning, how it seems to be alive, and how in that all these ideas of time and space and continuity and personalness and all this, and the me and the you and the whole separation, sort of comes into play.
So what are we curious about? We're curious about existence itself, about life itself. Yeah, and Bob would say, you know, just even... Watching the projector, you know, like really being curious, being interested in the way the mind works, just looking at it as an object, noticing how the attention moves, how the thinking processes what is being seen. It's a free show. It's amazing. Rather than focusing on the content, just see how that machine functions. It's quite incredible because watching it in this way, it can't be personal. It can't be personal that now someone said something to this one and this one responded in this way.
Wow, fascinating how this one has responded. Oh, it felt irritable and tense. Wow, amazing. I don't even have to label it, but I can feel the bubbling life. Fascinating.But it's not personal. It's not personal if that one is going to take an offense or do anything. It's just fascinating. It's just amazing. Amen. Amen. Thank you. Yes, I want to do my... Yeah. And thank you, everyone. Thank you, guys, who was on Zoom with us. And thank you, guys. Thank you.