This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
Right now. And now. I'm going to just spin it around. We have, as of now, David and Jane on Zoom. And we have myself, Tanya, and there is Sailor Bob in the background. Julia? Say your names. I'm Julia. Michael. And there we are. And we have Sim joining us online as well.Okay, and we're good to go. So we have two mics. So I'm going to maybe give you a quick introduction before we start. And then we just investigate the whole thing. Basic predicament is that there is no teaching here it isn't a teaching it isn't any sort of set of information that one has to get in order to understand or become or liberate themselves or end the suffering it's not something that is imparted that is presently lacking and if someone gives me a knowledge or book or wisdom then that will complete me and i won't be lacking anymore that's very often that was the entry sentence that Bob would start and I don't know if you heard about Bob that was a man who spent nearly 50 years that's longer than Buddha on pointing people to that basic truth of non-duality which is really basic and again he would start from I can't teach you anything it isn't a teaching I can't give you anything because what I'm pointing to is some no thing that you already have or you already are.
So you can say you already are aware that you exist. Everyone is clear and certain of their own existence. It's not a doubt. You can't pause the...existence for a moment just to see how it is not to exist you can try all one could say have in a way of the aspect of that existence is the capacity to know or to understand or to to know that you are Basically, that's really all the capacity is required. It doesn't require knowing foreign languages, Sanskrit or reading books or anything like that. It just is the capacity to know that you are and everyone already has that capacity.
So the problem really starts not with lack of knowledge, not with lack of understanding, but with that which obscures it. So that obviousness of existence is shining of its own, is ever fresh, is always here. Whenever you look, you are aware of existence. And it isn't a small thing. It's quite profound and quite beautiful to actually be alive, to have the capacity to see, to hear, to taste, to touch, to smell, to imagine, which is thinking. And when you actually pause and look at it, it is pretty mind-blowing. But because that whole body-mind vehicle has been conditioned to operate from the mind, and it's rarely, rarely that mind blown away, it's usually an operating system that translates and interpretseverything that happens.
So that beautiful, radiant miracle of existence is completely overlooked and is chatted away and is covered with concepts of what it means or what is wrong, mainly because that whole mind is the survival mechanism. It is the language model which keeps the body, or at least it narrates, the tendency of the body to stay safe and to avoid pain, follow pleasure. And of course, that means always want more than this moment right now. Always want more pleasure, more safety, more money, more recognition, more love, more attention. Everything boils down to that life essence, more energy. Energy in a form of money, energy in form of love, energy in form of affection or superiority or power.
That's the job of the language model, which is supposed to preserve the body and find, negotiate the best condition for it. And the same sort of mechanism functions in every creature, in the appearance. The same functions in animals. You can see how this cat obtains the attention. It's being super cute. Sometimes it's being annoying and it meows out loud and it still gets the attention, gets the energy in the form of pat or in the form of food.Humans are no different with one additional function, which is narration. Everything is constantly commented on. So this thinking thinking that is constantly reporting, not on everything, it doesn't report on beating the heart or on breathing most of the time, but it will report in a way that it forms the duality of relationship of me and the other, the self-centered me.
The imagined self and the world. So I am here and I am not there. So it builds, there is someone else joining us, it builds the sense of separation that the world is divided into two, into I and not I, me and not me. And that separation is the cause of insecurity. Of course, if I'm here and the whole world is outside of me, the whole world is a threat. I am not safe. And the whole world has more than I do. So I want it. And if I already have something, well, I'm afraid of losing it. And if I don't have it, I desire.
And all that relating, everything that arises into that self-center, which frankly exists in language, it can't be found apart from thought. If you look, where is that self-center? You pause for a moment. You just focus on.Well, traditionally it's called inside, but whatever you want to call it, focus on that presence right here, the here, being here. See if you can find the point which you call I, which is the center. You can find a vague idea of here. But how do you know? Where are you judging it from? And then you realize that when I say, let's say here, well, I kind of know it from everywhere.
Or maybe just from one point, but then how do I know it from that particular point? Again, you can see that trying to find yourself is an impossible conundrum because you would have to cease being yourself to locate the self. Then what you're locating is an object in consciousness. It's not who you are anymore because you are the one that is locating. So it is an impossible task. It's like in the old scriptures they say the tongue can't taste itself. It can taste everything else but not itself. The eye can't see itself. It can see reflection of itself if it looks in the mirror, but itself it can't.
So you can't actually assert your own location. You cannot deny your own existence. But to define what that existence is, you have to use the imagination.You have to imagine the boundaries, the boundaries of the body. But are they actually valid? Julia would be the one to say that you feel more you before you lost weight. Of course not. Did you feel less you when you were a kid? You know, being the presence, it doesn't have inequalities. It doesn't depend on the size. It doesn't depend on the shape of the body or size of the body. It doesn't depend on the amount of collected knowledge. I wasn't less or more myself when I knew less or more languages or had less or more information on science or maths or anything.
The sense of existence doesn't have qualities. It's neither high nor low, neither cold nor hot. It's neither pleasant nor unpleasant. It just is. It's nothing that can be said about it. You can't even say, you know, historically to say that something is, it's an assertion of something. So with the use of symbolic language, we are actually at the conundrum here because I can't assert any object in existence that I call me or I call existence itself. So it neither exists nor it doesn't really. But at the same time, as it. It neither exists nor it doesn't.But the sense of being alive doesn't go away. It's here.
It can't be denied. It's like obvious difference between the dead body and a live body. It's an obvious difference for being able to see, hear, taste, touch and smell to being in coma when I have surgery or something. There is a quality difference in this capacity for aliveness, capacity for experiencing. So the capacity is what we really talk about, the pure potentiality for existence, for aliveness, for experiencing, the experiencing itself. And that experiencing is prior to any definitions. So if I call myself this body, mind, cut, this is who I am. That comes after the capacity of experiencing. The capacity is first. Definition comes later.
And if I happen to be an actor, I may have definitions five a day. If I go to a school and every task is a different role, Throughout life, I may have another tasks in which different roles are being played. I may be a cat mama. I may be a daughter. I may be a worker, employer, employee, whatever the role is required in the moment is exercised through that vehicle. I may be driving a big...car and parking it and might be assessing whether I can fit in what I, I the car. So again, that definition, that kind of handy mental image of what I am for the purpose of functioning arises as required and it's nothing wrong with that.
The suffering starts when I believe I am this image, especially when the image is pretty low and pretty shitty. And then when we look at the, again, traditional way of being conditioned, you've got to be humble. You've got to serve everybody else. You've got to worry about everyone else. You can't be selfish. This is a mortal sin. You have to be poor, miserable little you. You have to be shy, that's sexy. Or you have to be whatever the content of the conditioning has been imparted. You might have been conditioned by someone narcissistic. So your role model would be to be super confident, project that sense of superiority on other people.
And even that doesn't prevent the psychological suffering, which comes from the idea that even if I'm better than everyone else, I can still sleep and lose it. Or I still depend on the environment. I depend on the air I breathe. I depend on the food I'm eating and the food may be scarce.depend on the approval of the tribe because if the tribe will cast me away I won't survive without it so there is any sense of self-image which arises for the purpose of functioning is just passing phenomena but every self-image or mental image that is embodied and taken to be what I am my persona or my identity causes pain.
Even the most healthy ego causes pain because it is temporary, it is mortal. It will get old and die and it is associated and as you can tell, every problem you ever struggle in your life is associated with the sense of survival of the body-mind machine.Even fear of losing your mind is the fear of losing the capacity to control the body-mind machine. And the news is the cat that is lying here and another one lying there. Look at the lazy bug. The illusion of control that the body-mind machine is exercising is just what it is, the illusion. It is just a narrative function. The control comes from something completely different than the mind.
Mind is a commentary. It's like a commentator on a football game. Which once the goal was kicked, the commentators will rave about it and yell about it and take it. We, we kicked the goal. While mind has no power apart from being a language model, which actually just provides that commentary and very often quite unhealthy, very often quite judgmental. It does not provide any function of control. If you look at the lazy cats, they have a capacity to, and that may be anthropomorphizing to use it in this way, to compare and judge just as much as people do.If I give them a bowl of fresh meat and I give them a bowl of old vegetables, they obviously can judge and compare for the functioning reason and pick what suits them.
So that capacity is innately there for every body mind to sustain itself, to survive itself. But the cat will not have the narrative following it. It will not have the yapping voice in the head. Oh, how dare they give me this shit? I deserve more. Or the world is against me. Or they don't love me anymore. Or I'm better than that. Or I didn't deserve it. Whatever the commentary goes, it is that extra function in so-called human vehicle, human machine, which is just narrating. And yes, meow. That's... You mentioned food. So animals, and this was one of the most prominent and the favorite of Bob's way of pointing to the natural state for me, pointing out to the natural state as the state present in nature.
Looking at the cats and dogs and eagles and snakes and fish and every other creature. We have someone else joining us.And I'm going to say welcome. John and Anna joined us a few minutes ago. So you will meet. I'll just spin around so you'll see who is with us here. There we go. And the cats who are a great demonstration today because they're just just putting themselves right in the field of attention. The attention, which is again another way of calling that field of energy, that field that Bob would call intelligence, intelligence energy, that there is pure energy in nature that works in intelligent way and it organizes itself.
To planets, solar systems, to cells in the body, to the bodies, to the minds, to the nations. The great intelligence that is constantly adapting to environment is, in fact, it is the environment. In fact, without the dividing mind, which divides this is me here and this is not me out there, there is only environment. I am the environment. See how inseparable I am from the environment. I couldn't live without the air. I couldn't live without the matter, which is food.without the water and those are the element of the environment the weather is the environment and the weather is affecting this body is affecting its mood is affecting and everything is a form of a weather one could say is the amount of factors that affecting everything points out that this is all inseparable field.
You could call it nature, you could call it environment. And I can't have a thought that would be completely isolated from that which arises around. They are completely interconnected. Everything is interconnected. The separation exists only in the narrative. The cat, as far as we can tell, knows nothing about being separate from the environment. It is dancing with the environment. Julia's hand is coming there available for potting. So just dance itself into it. And so do us, every one of us. When the environment is changing, our responses are changing. We don't know what our next thought is going to be. It will depend on the environment.
If there will be an explosion out there, the attention goes right there. If there is a rehearsal going on in the head, or what am I going to say or think or ask? Well, it is, again, spontaneously arising.activity which may or may not act itself out because the environment will change so the sense of separation of me being locked up in the body just because the there is a sensory experiencing in the body That's the logic behind the separation. Yes, but you know, I can only speak through this. I can't speak through the cut. I can't speak through Tanya. This is the only one. I only look from that angle.
I can't look from another angle. So obviously I am this. This is what I am. Well, again, this is a logic that is being imparted since early childhood, that brilliant hypnosis when the child is watching the parents. And again, for the convenience of functioning and the communication, yes, we call it I. And yes, we, as every other organism, defend it. Without the narrative, it is just part of the functioning. With the narrative, we believe this is I, this is my job. My job is to keep it safe. I'm doing it the best I can. I'm doing it by looking around, spotting dangers. And remedying. And if there is no visible danger, well, there is tons of possible dangers which I can think of.
I can die a thousand deaths imagining all the possible dangers, everything that can go wrong. And that's my job.Because that's the function of that narrative mind, survival. Though, again, if you see the whole picture, and if you see that it only narrates, it doesn't deliver any control. It doesn't deliver. It doesn't really. Enhance the life experience in any way, especially when believed to be in charge, which is not. It actually causes suffering. Then you see it for what it is, and you appreciate it for what it is. It's a beautiful storyteller. If we didn't have a beautiful stories to exchange, we would have much poorer dream.
Maybe not. Kat doesn't seem to have that poor of a dream. But this is what we get. This is the equipment through which that one intelligence, that one field of one life essence or one nature. Is experiencing itself right now. So speculating whether it would be better not to have mind or to have Alzheimer's disease or to wear the helmet which switch off that network because it's a particular neural network that hallucinates that narrator, that imagined self that exists in time, that is the same that was in childhood and is the same now and will be the same when I'm old. If we see it for what it is,If we see that overlay of the narrating, imagining storyteller as just an additional function in the present experiencing, that's what's called freedom.
That's what's called great enlightenment or liberation. Because liberation is from what? From believing the thoughts, from believing the delusions, delusions that I am the doer, that I have free will, I can screw up my life, I can make it all wrong, I can hurt people, I can hurt myself. I'm so grandiose that that great intelligence which is beating my heart is nothing comparing to my capacity to waste my potential. Wow. What a joke. While when I see it for what it is, that is just a yapping voice. Because I did not give myself the emotional intelligence or the IQ or the capacity to run or the both legs that I can walk with or the short side vision that...
Or anything it has evolved from the nature it have evolved from that singular uh or two actually cells that join together the of the of the parents the sperm and ovum that join together and through the food and the essence andthe attention and the warmth and love and all that was required evolved to that particular organism with that particular genetic makeup, with that particular early childhood conditioning, programs that have been installed, role models that it learned to emulate and learn through that imitation. That is complete artwork of the whole universe that was available in that seeming localized world one could say so how is it i how is it me and how is it separate but the idea of separation the idea of separation is that which when you see what it is you can break free but the question who is to break free if there is just whole environment i
I am the environment.
This is just a mouthpiece. This is how the environment has this particular vehicle to communicate through, to express itself through, to see itself, to see the reflection of itself using those holes in that whole machine. And then hearing the environment using these holes and smelling using these holes. And speaking using this one is just an instrument for the environment to catch the glimpse of itself. And now this sounds like teaching. Okay, I will think about it and I will consider adopting that belief system. No. This is nothing to be believed. Because as a belief, it can be questioned. As a belief, it can be forgotten.
As a belief, you're still relying on the narrative. You're relying on the commentary. So this is where the invitation comes. Check for yourself. Have a look. Without the thought. Without the narrating commentary which tells you that you are a body, male or female or Australian or American or whatever the concept says, without any of those stories, what is your experience of existence right now? Do you actually have, when you are looking straight or when you have your eyes closed, do you actually have a lever in your direct experience offit in your direct experience of course the mind will say come on you know 20 years 30 50 years i've been conditioned to believe yes of course i do that's a belief park it aside back again what is directly known directly right now what are you without the mental concept mental image And then you can't say without the thought, because whatever you want to say is going to be a commentary.
It's going to be a thought. Without the thought, what am I?Todd wants to come, but no, no. But am I not? Even without the thought, I still am. There's still a presence. There is still that capacity to experience, even without the thought, even without imagining the shape and form of the body, even without remembering all the concepts that I was told. The whole third hand experience like Heyman would say, you know, my date, my expired, not expired date, my expired date. In 100 years, these bodies will probably expire unless whatever. You can see how even the experience of age. It's not a direct experience. It's brought back from imagination, which is memory.
Memory is the projections, is the imagination. You can see how whole past completely vanishes if there is no thought, if there is no attention or belief going to thought. Direct experience is the only way you can truly, truly know the truth of yourself. Not what people tell you. And people were telling you all your life. You are a good little boy or bad little girl or you are this or you are that or you are evil or you are good, you are pretty, you are...all that nonsense other people told you but what is your own direct experience something that no teaching no guru no concept no book can ever give you but something that you can know from the depth of your own direct life experience and you will see that there is just one thing the complete confidence in the fact that you are what you are As you can easily see, without imagination, you can't tell.
With imagination, well, you can look at your life and you can contemplate and you can see on the good days, in a good mood, in a high serotonin dopamine level, good weather, everything going along. Yeah, I'm all right. On a bad day, I want to die. I hate myself. So which one is true? Imagination, the self-definition, the sense of being separate self is so unreliable, is so fleeting, is so changing, is such a shapeshifter. How could you be that? If you are that which can actually reflect on those changing moods and shapes and identities, you know all those identities are coming and going in that certainty of existence.
That is you.yours that nobody can tell you you know it directly and that's the beauty of that no teaching teaching beauty of that message that no belief is required no new set of concepts is required there's just a string of pointers every single pointer bringing you back to that recognition that without the thought i am the body are you the body okay let me look Well, I just am. Without the thought of separation, whatever is arising right now, Isn't that arising in that, in that I am?If you look around the whole room, other people, the lights, the computers, the voice, the sounds, the cuts, all are arising in that field of knowing.
The same knowing that is the knowing that you are. All that you experience is arising in that field of knowing. Simultaneously with the body experiencing it. It's a good analogy when you think of the dream and dreaming at night. You know, the whole world, the whole dream world is arising out of nowhere with buildings that nobody has built, with rivers, that have no source with the skies sometimes people dream of different worlds different planets with the people some people that you know that computer that bio computer will find the resemblance oh this one you know i was dreaming about my girlfriend who committed suicide uh 15 years ago but that wasn't quite her and we were much younger but some association was it was her Well, of course, this machine is associated.
It was a completely different alien world. But the association would say, oh, that kind of looks like an airport. I've never seen an airport like that. But that's how the machine interprets the narrative.interprets the world that has arisen in consciousness and in that world every single object has and and every person and every situation and every building and tree arose in it together with the avatar that was experiencing it I was in the dream also, equally with every other object. But that wasn't the same body that was sleeping in the bed, motionless. That body that arisen in the dream was speaking, had the eyes open, was interacting, was moving.
The whole dream world has arisen together with the subject experiencing the whole dream. And same here. This subject has arisen because the night dream has ended, the daydream has started. So that whole content of consciousness, together with that which experiences the content of consciousness, is arising simultaneously right now. It is witnessed, it is experienced. The sounds, the sights, the smells, it is all simultaneously experienced right now. The past may arise, just the dream that I recall. It arisen right now. Did it happen in the past? Well, according to the mind, the narrative that is organizing everything in the linear time that invented the time for the purpose.of having that beautiful storytelling capacity embellished and evolved.
But is there a time in the direct experience? How do I experience past the dream or my childhood or my traumas directly? I can't. They're only just fleeting mental images arising right now. I can remember when my sister was young. Right now memory fleeting experience everything that is ever experienced is experienced right now the whole past the whole imaginary future there is no other time there is no other possibility to actually be that one life one essence present and aware right now even if the narrative software will take us for a ride and it will be believed it will be completely just like every other believed, fed with that energy, fed with that attention, to the point that this present moment will completely vanish.
Just like, you know, and this is funny that... People live in thatpsychedelic experience of missing out on the present moment and having it completely covered up with that which is not happening but what am i gonna do if i if my boss is gonna fire me tomorrow i go to work and he'll fire me and then i'll be destitute and i will lose my house and i will end up on the bridge where is it now People may live their life because of the habit of feeding that which is not happening with that energy of attention, with that energy of belief, which is that one energy.
It is only one pure potentiality, one big pond. It's not even a pond. It's just a reservoir. It's not even a reservoir because it's limitless. It's just the energy field that creates that incredible intricate dream. But it has that sort of basic, pure, present experiencing of present seeing, present hearing, present tasting, present touching, present seeing, experiencing, imagining, and the capacity to completely overlook that. And sit in the persistent anxiety what other people think about me what is going to happen if this goes wrong or that goes wrong and completely missing out on aliveness on vibrancy of miraculousness of beingpresent in this moment now. Seeing how this magic trick gets into existence, gets simulated.
It's really all that ever need to be seen. Seeing through, Bob had hundreds of beautiful, brilliant pointers. See how the mind functions was one that was really potent because not only is the free source of endless entertainment but it is also a source of incredible joy and freedom because when you see your complaining mind from that emptiness that pure registering capacity without engaging or without judging the judging mind or being upset about the upset mind, but just in that neutral space of, wow, That's already a freedom. Watching the mind as an object arising in the capacity for knowing or in consciousness. Watching the narrative arising as another piece of arising, just like the rain arising or sunshine arising.
Watching it from that sort of sense of freedom, of that curious, open field of witnessing, is already assertingthat I am not my mind. And if I'm not my mind, why bother? Believing whatever it has to deliver is just a narrative. And it can now become a servant instead of being a master. And a great source of creativity, a great source of joy. And that's really enough, I think. So now we have two sticks with mics. We need those mics for people who are online and on Facebook. So anyone would like to highlight anything, comment or anything, or ask anything, or reward anything, rephrase anything. Because sometimes people hear it better if it is put in a slightly different manner.That was beautiful.
Thank you. Thank you. What you were saying about the dream is the, you know, the nighttime dream, daytime nap. It's an awesome, awesome giveaway. Thank you. When you're dreaming, do you imagine others in your dream? Other people? Other individuals walking around in your dream? Does that happen? It happens, right? Yep. There are other people in your dream. And there are motivations attributed to those entities, to those people, to those individuals. There is a sense that things are being done to you or for you by others.And there's perhaps thoughts coming that I'm doing this in the dream. I'm making this happen. Oh, look what I've done.
I've created a golden orb. Aren't I brilliant? And others standing around watching going, ooh, aren't you wonderful? Yes, they love me. Now, all those entities in the dream, Do they actually have minds? Right? Do they have personalities? Or is that not just something that is believed in?Are you not imagining them to have individual personalities, doing things, being motivated, having willpower to do things and create things, just as you are for the dream self? I did this, I did that. All the while, the whole shebang is imagined. Imagined. And the physical body is just lying on the bed.Same when you sit here and you daydream. motivations, personalities, wills are attributed to others in your imagination, just as it's attributed to me, the mini-me, the doer.
No different. Dreaming is a wonderful, beautiful gift, giveaway. See that it's no different. To this waking dream. There is attribution to appearances that come and go, come and go. All the while happening, this thing we call consciousness, of course, there's no boundary, this is the limitation of language, you know, and call it the eternal soup. I like to think of it as soup, because like minestrone soup, right? The soup is through all the vegetables in the soup. It's all these vegetables floating around in the soup, given names and forms, carrots and onions and celery and beans and whatever. The soup is there. It's all soup.
It's all soup.It's all, all is environment. Yeah. It is false to believe that somehow this body that seems to follow around is separate from The air that can't be seen. Just like the soup. Carrots in the soup are not separate from the soup. Soup permeates all the vegetables. It's his life. The whole thing is happening together.So. That which is happening, seemingly happening right now, could not happen any other way. There's no, if only I'd done such and such differently. But the thought was not yours. You didn't plan it. You didn't decide to have it. You didn't wake up in the morning with a plan of thoughts you were going to have throughout the day at what time.
They just occur spontaneously. Somebody asks you how you're doing, who you are, make something up, something comes up on the spot, instantaneously.You might have practiced a script. It'll come out when it comes up. When does it come up? Right now, spontaneously. Just like in the dream. It's an appearance, you said holes, it's holes, holes, like looking, it's a seeming looking into this bubble of the dream. That extends as far as far as far as far as the consciousness extends which is endless without beginning without endNo point trying to understand what's going on, trying to have the perfect concept, perfect understanding that describes exactly what this is.
Can't do no. Drop that. Drop it.seeing through the illusion of a me controlling What's occurring? That is just the narrative, as Kat calls it, the narrative that tries to take credit, blame,And if it's believed in, the attention's focused on that, Well, would you be surprised if that's what you get? Never as you expected. Can catastrophize all day long. Be in the cloud of dreams and the imagining what's coming next.You'll always be surprised by what's. Or what's occurring right now. This thing we call mind. What is it? What is it? Just like when we say, go look for that mini me, that central controller, mind, ego, take a look.
Just like in the dream. You can't find it.Just like in the dream, you know it's nonsense to attribute, when you wake up, to attribute any doership to any of the characters in the dream. You think, well, that's just ridiculous. It was all just occurring in my dream imagination. Just like when you look when you're awake, you can't find the reference point from which everything is being directed. No boundary. Same for all other seeming entities and individuals.Why would you find the thoughts that come attributing motivation? Oh, he did that because, you know, he's jealous of me. He wants to undermine me. He wants to see me suffer.
Perhaps he has a thought that comes up that he believes that too. But did he make the thought arise?Did you? It's just experiencing. Don't know why, don't know what, just all that can be said is that We can't deny being. I don't know what it is. I don't know why. I don't know how. I don't understand how it works. Who cares? Who cares?Who is there to care, really? Only that believed in fictitious entity. See through that and you see there's no one, no entity, no individual that suffers or lacks or needs to do, to seek, to become whole.That was beautiful. Oh, I just love listening to the way it appears and occurs through you.
It's so clear. Lovely. Yeah, that state in which just back from that identification of the form, that formlessness, that emptiness that completely doesn't need to know what it is, doesn't need to grasp anything, doesn't have any claims for any shape, any form. It's right here. It wants nothing. It needs nothing. It lacks nothing. It's just registering. And it's like, That which still says, yes, but I still feel there is a me. I still feel there is a boundary, there is a contraction. This is still not it. This is still not quite it. It's just a narrative. That voice, that claim is also registered. In that field which doesn't need to know anything, doesn't need self-definition,It was so beautiful to live with this man for less than a decade, but I knew him for longer than a decade.
No need, no anxiety to define himself at all. No idea who he was, why he was, what for, meaning of life, meaning of teachings. He had nothing to give, nothing to say. When he was asked, why are you still coming, sitting in front of people and telling him that? I'm not. That's just how that dream arising. What makes you come here? You don't know either. You may have 10 stories. But really, that's just how the dream is unfolding. And I see we have a couple of people unmuted on the Zoom. Jane, are you unmuted? No, you're not. But by the way, if any one of you guys would like to comment or ask questions or contribute in any way, please come.
Please give us your voice.Or anyone up here? The talking stick. John, will you? Okay. Yeah, no. Something's been sitting with me recently. Can you hear me? Yes, I'm just trying to make it. Yeah. Yeah. I had heard Bob having one of his spiels and he would oftentimes refer to the use of words. Say water is something that you, you know, the work you can't drown in the word. It can't quench your thirst. You can't cook your food in it. And, you know, fire, it can't burn your mouth and so on. And then he, you know, at one point said, well, what about this word I?
And I thought that it still was a referent, like the word water to water or fire to fire. But it's not. There's nothing it's referring to at all. It's just a made up word. It's a sound. And when that clicked with me, it's like even the need to look for it starts fading. You're just left with what's here. And based upon those concepts and assumptions, I was trying to dismantle something that wasn't there in the first place. And it's just been so liberating toLike, I just say to myself, I is just a word. And then everything is allowed to be as it is. Yeah, that's it.
Beautifully put. Exactly. How is that word, that use of a symbolic language, the I, the me, different to any other word? It is just another symbol. The cat, the fire, the water, symbols. Word water can't quench a thirst. Word I can't, can it do anything? Bob Wood had this elaboration, I see. There is an assumption that there is someone there inside, the mini-me, that has the capacity for seeing. That is doing the seeing. But is it really? The capacity for seeing is prior to that interpretation which says this is I. I am seeing. I can choose to see, look to the left or look to the right.
But no. If looking to the left happens because the thought has came up, what does it have to do with I? Absolutely nothing. If the urge arises to look or to do anything, that's just an urge. No different to the urge to empty your bladder or the natural.functioning of Yeah, I is the word, but that word has collected so much significance. The I that represents my gender, my nationality, my past experiences, everything that is associated with this unique vehicle. Is now who I am and that is present. No, the presence does not have to wear that costume of I. It is there without that costume also.
It is there prior to any concept, any conceptual image.seeing what that and thank you for that john that is really really good highlight this is really a crucial point to see as many ways in as many ways as possible how that illusion of separation is constructed how that illusion is being believed into reality it's almost like this story about the velvety rabbit which was so loved and so cherished by a little child that at the end of the story that love and that cherished attention made it real that's that's how the eye is made real through the energy of belief if i believe there is a little thing inside that does the thinking that knows my next thoughts that makes decisions if that belief is flooding it and is giving it life It feels real.
It is experienced as real. Just like you can see in aboriginal tribes, they have the collective belief that if you point the bone, then the person, if the elders point the bone at the imposter or someone who transgress against the tribe, person will die collective belief and that's that's what's happening they die there are other tribes who believe that if 30 people hold their hands and visualize the the tumor disappearing in the belly it will disappear and that power seemingpower of belief but is there an eye that give it a power or that energy is the same energy that is beating my heart whether there is a belief or not that is moving the planets and is leading the sun whether there is a permission from that imagined imposter i or not whether that belief is held or is not Things are happening.
Without the belief in I, Bob was hanging around for 50 years without psychological suffering. There was, by all means, all different challenges coming through life. They were heartaches and heartbreaks and betrayals and physical illness and struggles, financial health struggles, all of it. But they were just the happening. Psychological suffering coming from the idea that it shouldn't have happened. Wasn't there. Or that it shouldn't have happened to me. Wasn't there. It's just like, you know, the cuts. They, well, I may get home or Tanya may be away and they get... A dinner two hours later. Yes, there is a discomfort in the belly. They used to be spoiled on time.
But that discomfort doesn't cause suffering because there is no resistance to what's happening. There's no arguing with what's happening. When Bob fell sick, there was no arguing. Why is it happening to me?I don't want to be sick. It's not the body. The sickness happened. That's the content of the dream. Okay. Nothing's the problem. But we want to hear, we're going to hear you guys. Come on. That was beautiful, thank you. And the idea of I, and not being able to find it as well. But one thing that's been a challenge for me is that sense of energetic presence, which is an idea as well. Because without the thought, you can't even have that.
But there is a sense of center, like the center's here. And I'd be curious, like I think other people might be thinking about that too, because you feel like, and then there's, because once you go into the mind, then it's, well, if I'm the center and this is all there is, then like everything's within this. So then there can be fear that this is all and I'm alone. There's nothing outside of it. And again, it's all mine. But there is that sense of energetic. Center beyond words as well like this is the center location location yeah here here here and there is nowhere else exactly yes always here but does that here has any boundary is it small is it located is that can you put the circumference around that here You can't do anything without language.Your thoughts.
Yeah. So is it the problem that the center of the location is always here? It's always here and it's always now. But what's wrong with that? Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong. And even driving, everything comes to here. Walking, everything comes to here. It's only an idea or a concept that I'm moving through space and time. Yes. So it's like, and there is a kind of fear of letting go of all of that because then there's nothing. So there's kind of that mind jumping in as well and saying, well, what if you let go of all of that? There's just nothing. Yeah. I think Nisargadatta talked about sitting for hours on end just with...
Being nothing, not existing, not existing, neither. And the mind is trying to imagine it and is fearing the imagination. Because it's totally not what the words say. No matter how accurately the Sargadatta is describing it, Mind try to make a mental image and it's further away from the truth one could ever when the simplicity of direct experience of existence, just nothing wrong, nothing scary.But there's also that expectation that the game stops and everything disappears. I think they say it in the Course of Miracles as well. Once you get it, everything disappears. There's no need to play this game anymore. Everything just disappears. And this is the language.
Because right now, in that witnessing presence, There is no game playing at all. Right now, in this moment, you are already free from playing the game. That which is playing the game is just an appearance. It's just a shadow, shadow picture on the screen, adornment in space. It really doesn't mean you stop playing all the game, but you realize that you are the space in which the games are being played, not by you. They automatically, butterflies are flying and the clouds are moving through the sky. Space does not mind is already free and you are that. You are that free space in which the whole dream is arising and you are not doing any playing whatsoever already.
Don't have to read the Course in Miracles to get there. That's already happening. It is to be recognized. That has always been happening.It's like the dream character, like Tanya was saying, taking agency in the dream. Yes. That beautiful illusion of agency. Yummy when you when you realize it's just a ride and not the truth Beautiful. Thank you. Did you have more to say? No. No, I just, no, really. You've put me in a good mood. Thank you. You are. You are. You're very, very dangerous women. Thank you. Yeah, it's good. No, but I can, on what Michael was saying, like, I don't have the language for this, but in my mind's eye, I can imagine the psychological mind, you know, let's say you could literally take a hammer to it and explode it.
And then I can see the piece behind, like, I can just... be, you know, I can interact with everything and it's everything. There's no, it's all the same. It's all cool, you know. But I suppose, yeah, I mean, I can't. But the mind is there. I mean, sorry.Well, the illusion remains. Um, Yeah, but it's... You wouldn't like to get Alzheimer's disease or anything like that, would you? No. There you go. Appreciate it. The commentary is there. So what? Yes, but I guess I'm here to transcend. And I know, again, I know. It just appears in the space that you are. Just don't take it seriously.
Yeah. I can't believe it. Yeah. I had a, it was funny the other day, I was, I had two little things that happened very briefly. Like I was, because the mind was doing its thing and I was thinking a million things and caught up in it. And then I was buttering some bread. And just for, I just thought, what's going on here? When did I even decide to cook the toast? And look at me like I'm a dab hand at this, aren't I? This is a mess. Like I was just putting this butter and Vegemite on. And then later I was going to take a shower and the jumper's coming off and the pants are going, what's going on here?
All my clothes are coming off. I'm going to take a shower. Yeah. But it was very brief. But it was completely different to what the story was in my head. Like, it's like, what the hell's going on here? Yeah. So just little brief moments. But I suppose...It's how do I proceed? But you see, you know, those brief moments, how different are those brief moments to the moment of you sitting right here right now? What's the difference? Isn't it also just happening? Yeah, but I guess I was, I guess maybe for a briefest of moments, I wasn't caught up in the illusion. Or I don't know what it was.
Yeah, how about now? Well, I've still got that, the anxious me still front and centre. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. You don't know. You don't know. You said, how do I proceed? How do you not proceed?What do you mean, how do I proceed? What do I need to, okay, what do I got to do now? How do I hold it? How do I get it back? How do I? See, that's all thought, all thought. See through that. See through that need to do anything. Just like getting undressed to take a shower. You didn't plan it. All of a sudden, you're in the moment because you got out of the clouds, seemingly.
You thought, oh, shit. Look at that. It was hilarious. I was just, there I was just marching towards the shower. It was great. So the question, how do I proceed? In the light of seeing that,Where does it go? I can't get there. You're not. You are there. You're not the doer. There's no little entity. It's hiding somewhere behind your eyes with some powers to make things happen, to correct wrongs. To get justice, to fill the gaps, to make everything whole and perfect.When you can find that mini me that does that, then you can ask that mini me, how do I proceed? Yeah, okay. So keep looking.
I'm looking. Keep looking. Try this. Try this. I want you to for a week. For a week. Take a week off work. Sit in your favourite armchair. And don't have a thought for one week. And you'll get it. Guaranteed. For one week. No thoughts. We'll take it 10 lifetimes. Or maybe 20. Seriously. One week, no thoughts, guaranteed. I don't know what you're saying. You'll realise by Wednesday, you can't not have a thought. I'm aware of that, yes. Right. You know that. I get that. I understand that. Okay, then. See that. The next thought that comes that says, how do I proceed? It's part of the game.
Yeah. See through that. You just said, I see that. I know that. I don't create. I'm not the doer of these thoughts. They just come. Just like the body is moving and getting undressed and eating and whatever. Okay, so why believe this?I put any energy into believing this, I need to do something. Well, it's just that there's momentum. Is there? Is the mind telling you it's just that there's momentum? Oh, God, it's frustrating, isn't it? I feel it. I can see it, right? Because it's all part of the game. Yeah. It really is. You're like you're in the dream at night and stuff is just happening and you're attributing the dreamer.
Who is, you know, somebody walking around the dream as the constructor, the architect, the maker, the doer of what's happening. You know that to be nonsense.Yeah. Anybody else? We have Jane. After hot seat, she said. We have, Jane has the hand up, so we're going to give it to Jane. But I just want to challenge you on just last, last little tiny, tiny. I'll be gentle. That anxious self is present. But are you it or is it something that arises? Because when there was no anxious self, when you were going to the shower and buttering your bread, there was no anxious self. There was no center.
But there was still existence. You were still there. You were still there to report it. And right now, anxious self is present. So whether the anxious self is arising or anxious self is absent, you're still there. So the anxious self is just an ornament, just another additional piece of nuisance arising in consciousness. It's not who you are, is it? But it may feel like it is. It feels like personality, yeah. Yes, but you've experienced yourself without the anxious self when you were buttering the bread and going for a shower. So obviously, the fact that the anxious self is present right now, what does it even mean?
It's just another object in consciousness, just another... emotion, feeling, contraction arising in consciousness. So the question would be, okay, how do I get rid of it? And I stay in that more pleasant state.where the anxiety is absent. And then, of course, who is having that issue? Who wants more pleasure? Again, the narrative. The space doesn't mind whether the anxious self is here or the anxious self is not here. It welcomes all together just the same. So further relaxation from the identification of the anxious self to the point when you actually see it as just another piece of arising. And let it be actually anxious self arising is pretty cute and fascinating and amazing because of with vibrating particular way it's interesting how the vibration comes from the solar plexus and just kind of you know tighten the chest wow wow just if you're curious about that anxious self knowing that this is not who you are And you actually investigate it in that way, just like another piece of arising as the, you know, rain or anger or curiosity, anything that is arising, just notice it.
Don't try to push it away. Don't try to ask a question. How do I get rid of it and come back to the state where it's more pleasure? But just relax and watch it. That's a little sweet reframe which makes the imposter something really funny.to get to know because it is also a survival strategy there's also a voice of love saying oh i just i just want to be safe and i just want to be free and i just oh i love you so much i care so much i really want more pleasure but it's still just the translation of the energy through the mind to the thought and emotion.
It's cool to watch. And we have Jane, would you like to unmute? Yeah. Oh, thank you. Everything everybody said so far today has been brilliant. So thank you, everyone. I was just further to what John was saying about no I. When I'm particularly caught up. In the whole thing, sometimes I just say, well, if I just push my name to one side, then what am I or who am I? And that works really well. Because then I have much less identification, much less identification happens just by putting the name to one side. Yeah, lovely tip.Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, everyone. Yeah. Thank you, Jane. Yeah, that's a lovely tip.
We have so much associations with the names. Attachment to it, you know, for like, they would speak, just, you know, that's all the impulse. And just, yeah, park it aside slowly, gently, and see, see what you are without that label. Better yet, without any label whatsoever. Just that pure, open here. Here, here and now, the whole field. With everything that arises in it, the whole capacity for experiencing, with including, not excluding anything, every possible experience that arises within that capacity, me and my anxious self. And by the way, I actually had the same sort of illusion, the same sort of similar sort of association with the core of my identity as not being the body, as not being particular attachment to the story of a job or past or anything, but that vulnerable core, that fragility, that fearing rejection.
shyness, vulnerability, social awkwardness, anxiety. It felt like this was what I am. I am this. This is so personal, so tight, so here. And contracting and there's nothing free about it i know all the concepts but this is still feeling like you know i could put the circumference and there's really really tight sort of a contraction i am my emotional core my emotional self And to realize that this conceptual image is no different to any other conceptual image.conceptual image. And this, for me, it was my one and only individual session that I held with Bob when, after the really big disappointment and the heartache, I was presenting to Bob that the biggest pain was that the person I was trying to build a bond, connect on really deepest level, collapse the separation, He saw me as this, you know, I was a ship's officer.
I had a good job. I was a woman in the male dominated environment surviving there. So he had an image of me almost being like whatever, a tough one. While I was, my strategy was to just be invisible. Just don't catch eye contact with anyone. Do my job and be quiet. I wasn't that officer in the uniform, what he saw about me. And I said, this is the saddest thing. The person I was trying to be close to, just really find the oneness with, couldn't see me even for one glimpse for what I am. And then I would describe, because I am that. I am not this, the officer.
I am that. The anxious self, the vulnerable self, the fragile self. And as I was describing, Bob, what I am not and what I am, too empty heart.ugly image on this one. I mean, for him, it wasn't that ugly. He kind of liked me. And another ugly image on this one. I kind of didn't like me. But this was more sentient. This was more real, that had emotional core to it, the fragility, the vulnerability. It was sentient. While this one was kind of like a cartoon sort of rigid, ugly. But apart from that, they were both imagined and they were both sitting on the empty hands.What is your image of you?
Maybe the anxious self. What's your son's image of you? What's your mom's image of you? Which one is right? Hopefully not my mom's. Is it worse than yours? Nah. The same, I think. Okay, so it's definitely not right. No, it's true, yeah. Yeah, there's endless images. Endless, yeah. As many as pairs of eyes viewing and pairs of software interpreting relating to individual experience of everyone. Yeah. That many images. Yeah. Well, my mum's image of me is... Her image of herself through me sort of i might like yeah become multi-layered i guess yeah yeah yeah because i've yeah in terms of family members that i've had such trouble with like it was you know i suppose to see that um you know they're just the same as me like they're just going through their own experiences and this is what's come out the other side of it so That gave me peace in and of itself.
Yeah, because it was just psychological stuff once again that had built up. And when you see how brilliant it is, you know, that this piece of software there in the language model, in a large language model.actually simplify infinite complexity of the world of a person in front of you which is absolute mystery unknowable mystery it can simplify it process all the past experiences and construct the image that makes it completely natural to just operate through it and build a relationship and that image is updated every experience every day is slightly different it's like a database in which that image is slightly updated sometimes upgraded sometimes downgraded but it is you know it's it's flexible your image of yourself is also different than when you were five year old So it's like you see the capacity of that incredible translating machinery and you say, wow, the whole conundrum is to not take it too seriously.
It is just a navigational aid. It is not the oracle that tells the truth. It is just a computation for the purpose of navigating in that infinite complexity of that dream. I think we have, I think we have, oh, Gioti says, and thank you, we have 10 people here with us also on Facebook just now.Daniel said first, call me Sailor Dan. Never met Bob, but his words have influenced me a lot. Sailor Dan you are. And you are infinite reality. And we can label anyone anything but beyond label we are and jyoti says there was always this curiosity or confusion about how personal the thoughts are learning about enneagram has been quite interesting for me what previously felt personal now comes across as just a pattern.
Welcome to the club of Enneagram lovers. Yes, it's quite revealing, isn't it? It really reveals the patterns behind the most unique, most personal and most sacred way that this particular processor processes the world. Suddenly, somebody just mapped down that pattern, wrote it down in a few lines. Shit! I remember my first husband when I introduced him to that Enneagram idea. And it was quite clear and obvious he was the observer type. And for those who don't know, this is the type which is the mostoverprotective in regards to their privacy, their secrecy, their private life. And I suggested that he might be the type. He didn't want to hear about it.
So I just slowly, just gently put the Enneagram book in the bathroom. Hoping that he will have a big longer session there and he will look to the type 5 this guy who is always self-collected ship's captain storm out from that bathroom got that book throw it on the floor and he's never threw anything anywhere he's just very self-collected 5 and he yelled out of the top of his throat this is so wrong This should be illegal. This should not be allowed for people to map down other people with such precision that it makes you doubt whether you should be ashamed or whether you should be.
How am I? This how am I going to hide if you know this shit about me? He had to end the marriage soon after. Which was quite devastating, but without it, I wouldn't meet this one. So, yes. Did he introduce you to this one? No, no, no, no. That was the one who saw me as a ship's officer. That was the first man in my life was my first husband. That was the second.And he was the third. So yeah, that is a good point, Gioti. Absolutely. It just shows up with such confronting clarity that every trait is just a pattern. It's completely mappable. You can write it down.
You can recognize as just a pattern. It's not necessary. Bob didn't know anagram and he was perfectly clear. It's not required. It's not anything that anyone needs to know or learn. But if life brings it, if life shows it, give it on a silver platter and you find the appetite and then find it appealing. Yep. We enjoy it. And there is tons of other things very enjoyable in life. There's nothing wrong. Is someone at the door? I think it's a neighbor. Oh, it could be. The music is beautiful. There is so much to appreciate. The nature, the beautiful friendships, any form of joining or any form of relating through that.
Avatar of body-mind mechanism, if there is no seriousness, if there is no identification as something limited, as something flawed, as something broken,that needs healing, improving. Dream is pretty amazing. And it's just a dream. So there's no fear of that dream ending or that dream changing. It's just curiosity. And that was Bob's almost like a life motto. Hmm, I wonder. I wonder what's around the corner. I wonder. This seems to be a little bit of a situation. How is that going to resolve? Oh, how is that? Let me see. Let us see. Let us see what happens.And no, there's no new comment. And I think we kind of, if anyone has the last word, that's the last word.
Hi, this is my first time, so thank you so much. It's been very interesting, but I feel like I don't know if it's my mind. It's probably my mind that wants to ask a question about learning. So I feel like I'm sitting here and I understand what you're saying and I can feel the energy of my, well, not my, but of being. But my mind is also... At the same time sort of going, well, you're learning quite a lot here today, you know, and I feel like I wouldn't have had access to this if I wasn't sitting here and my brain wasn't taking it in and functioning for me.
And so I guess my question is like, as the soul or the being, I think I've always thought, well, we come here and we have a human body so we can learn. We're having experiences, sensory experiences and mental experiences and all, the whole lot, you know. And I understand if we don't identify it with it and believe that's the only truth, you know, then it's not really a problem. It's more like you say a game, but we still have to operate in that way because that's the way the game's set up.So we still have to, like I can be in here and I can have this experience of like, or sit out on the mountain or whatever and you can just be.
But mostly it's not like that. Mostly it's like we get up and we've all got something that we need to do. We need to earn money, pay the bills, all the rest of it. So we learn how to do all that. Society teaches us that, you know, and there's nothing wrong with that. You know, it's just part of it. But. That's all learning. We've got to learn these skills to operate in the world. But on the soul level, I guess I'm wondering, is there any evolution? You know, is it an evolution or a learning to get to the point where you can sort of let go and you can, you know, you're letting go of a whole lot of preconceived ideas or structures that are there?
And it's almost a paradox, it feels to me. It's like a letting go of something, but at the same time you're gaining this experience or this knowledge or this learning. And I know it's probably already all there, but I don't know if I'm articulating this very well, but are we being here in this room actually learning something? How about unlearning? Unlearning. Yeah. Yeah, unlearning. Dropping illusions. Yeah, but that's still an experience, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. So there is this movement.And I'm not saying it's a directional thing, better or worse or anything like that, but there is the soul is not a static thing. It's a kind of energy that's learning, unlearning, but it's not just being.
Being maybe isn't just a stillness. It's more... Maybe evolving or devolving there's no moral sort of thing or do you know what i'm sort of yeah you might you might be actually uh like the way sometimes it is described is as the static dynamic shiva shakti uh emptiness form sort of a flow like now the pure potentiality is nothing is emptiness it can't know itself it can't experience itself it doesn't even it isn't even conscious of its own existence we call it awareness but it isn't even aware because it needs the form the pattern through which it glimpses itself as a form so it creates the form so it waves the experiences itself through seeing hearing tasting storytelling all of that so that is the dynamic aspect static aspect as emptiness is the shiva is the pure potentiality dynamic aspect is shakti shakti dances and the world appears the whole dreaming appears and that dynamic aspect they are not two things they are onepure potentiality existing as the as the pure potential just like you have the electricity you see you have the light off and electricity isn't there but it is potentially there because i flick the light and the light is on and the light is the shakti is the appearance and the lamp is also appearance and everything that is an appearance is an expression of that pure potentiality so in essence everything is the pure potentiality but in the way it appears it appears as energy it appears as soul journey it appears as learning or unlearning as the form as resonating as coming back from that trips mind trips imagination to the heart of pure being where there is nothing wrong when there is just peace and then it still appears as the action in the world as going to work paying the bills but at the essence is peace there is a peace that passes all understanding and that peace is still appearing you see and the learning you know when you look at the animals they're still having the journey the eagle goes out of the nest and it flies and the first flight may be awkward but the hundred flight will be wonderful long gliding and then they hunt you know the first hand maybe a little mice and then there will be a rabbit or whatever the learning is part of functioning And unlearning too.
Thank you.That's really helpful. And something came into my mind when you were talking, and I don't know where I saw it, but it said, there are no answers, only dances. Beautiful. Yeah. So it's that dance and that interaction. And it's like it can appear as two, but it's actually not separate. It's the same. But how delightful that there is two as well, like the Shakti and Shiva. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. That's lovely. No answers, only dances. That's awesome. That's a good title. Yes, and thank you, everyone. That was beautiful. We didn't hear Connie also. Yeah, so there's no being. There is no being only movement.
And knowledge is not a separate thing. Learning is not a separate thing that needs to happen. There's really just these patterns unfolding. You know sometimes they're more congealed and awkward sometimes they're freer and more flowy but they're just it's just energy you know just whatever the isness of the universe ising and um then sometimes like part of that isness is a thought that pops in saying oh there was a blueprint there or there was a blueprint required It's just another, it's the same, it's the same stuff. It's just, um,or an action might take place before that thought pops in. There may be a concept with the action or not.
It might just, oh, it happened, you know. A thought might pop in, oh, something's needed to be learned before that could happen, or I thought, like, that might not appear, and it might just happen anyway. So it's really just the same stuff happening. So to me, there is no dichotomy. There's no, it only is the one thing. Yeah, that's beautiful. So are we good? That's all.Thank you, everyone, for being with us online.