This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
Hi John, we have only you and we have a different setting today just for a change. We have people, yeah, wherever you want to sit. You can even put the flowers out there next to both maybe. Sorry for the lie and we have David here. And I'm going to just send it over to Facebook. Go live now.And there we are and I'm going to be hanging in closer here to make sure that I can see zoomers. So I can recommend this. And welcome everyone who is with us online and who is watching us on Facebook. And we just had quite a few people showing up last minute.
So we were thinking there will be just Tanya and I having a conversation, which we absolutely love to have. But we are very happy to share that conversation with you guys. So. That's our settings. We could even have a biscuits here and drinks. We can have a party. We can have a celebration, which is always really what it is. And we've been harshly criticized for that, but it's not none of our doing to just highlight that aspect of livingness, which is. Actually joyous which is a good news it's a good news that you are alive it's a good news that there is a presence of consciousness because without that nothing else is there is only this ever fresh present moment and if you keep your attention in that reality of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling,there's never anything wrong life is simple life is light of course there are situations when there is darkness when there is winter and there is cold there is day and night and and and all the interrelated opposites happening but if there is no traveling in the mind and comparing it what should be what could be or how it is wrong you know, you're just cruising through it.
And it has its own beauty, its own amazement. And if you are set out to appreciate that uniqueness of each moment, there is nothing wrong with winter. There is nothing wrong with even an empty stomach. There is just... What appears in that ever fresh presence of consciousness. So, and this is also, I had interesting conversations lately about people who actually struggle. Oh, we have someone else joining us. How nice. Oh, I'll just put that here.Thank you, Lucky. Come, Charlie. And Amy as well. We might need another chair. Someone else coming? Yes, I think I saw Amy. You sit down, I'll take care of it. Oh, you can drive maybe one from there?
Yeah, I'll get some. Latecomers. Yeah, latecomers. Maybe we won't assume that we'll be ourselves next time. Yeah, so we were just starting doing a little introduction. I didn't actually ask, you know, maybe one of you guys on Zoom would like to do it today or any other day. Everyone is welcome because everyone is aware of existence. There is no superiority, inferiority. No one is more or less alive than anyone else. Everybody knows that they are. And if you actually just rest in that knowing of existence, the expression of it, the description of it comes naturally. So anyone could do that. It's not, you know, like Bob would say, you don't have to be a road scholar to really describe the present moment as it appears and exclude the ideas, philosophies, beliefs.
You know, if you believe that you are a person excluded, if you believe that you are male or female excluded, if you believe that you have childhood trauma or you have past or future, just don't bother with thoughts, with beliefs. But this present moment.as it arises right now if you are grounded in the in the presence that's really really easy to just say wow you know the seeing is happening right now there is seeing happening and there are things arising in it and there's hearing happening also and and there is sensations are arising as well All of those things are happening because of this awareness of presence or presence of awareness.
And this is the very, very, very simple introduction. So if you are not preoccupied with the content of your imagination. But the attention is resting in that which is happening presently, life is light. If you are preoccupied with what is not happening, yes, but my husband is going to die or is going to leave me or someone hates me or loves me or I don't get this or I will get fired or I will get old or I, I, I, I. If there is no preoccupation with the imagination, life is light. And it smoothly cruises through ups and downs and all that dream as it unfolds in all its duality.
Because without the duality, of course, there's no dream. If there is no up and down, there is no left and right, there is no dark and light, there is no pleasure and pain, there's no dream. So while the dream is experienced in the consciousness, it will always be.be ups and downs and lefts and rights and all that interrelated opposites. But if there is no concept that there is something wrong with that or that they shouldn't be there, If there is just and curious open field of attention, seeing how they flow and change. Again, there is a lightness of being, there is a joy of being.
And focusing on that present. Joy, immediate awareness of being and the joy of being brings more of it, makes it habituated, makes the attention learn to actually rest in that. When the attention is trained to constantly engage in the imagination, in the past and future, in that which is not there, in different places, different things, different locations, different situations, different relationships, of course, that whole body-mind machine is trained. For distractions, strain, for ADHD, for commitment to that which is not happening. And that is sometimes pleasure, but that pleasure is very, very fleeting, mostly pain. It is mostly, even if there is a positive or pleasant situation happening, that situation is going to change because everything changes in that dream, in that fleeting.
Phenomenonmanifestation. So trying to hold on to that which is bound to change is another source of suffering. But I was actually going to say something else. I spoke with people lately and quite a few who have this conundrum, you know, they actually message started message, it's not message, it's just reminder that you are. And that starts landing and that starts feeling right. It starts, the confidence is growing in the fact that this is really the only game in town. The fact of existence is really the only truth and the only reality. And I want to shout it from the rooftops. They want to talk to others.
They want to talk to their friends. They want to talk to their families. They want to share it. This message wants to share itself because it's simple. It's elegant. It's beautiful. It explains. It brings up everything. It cuts out all the unnecessary vagaries of the mind, you know. Is it happening right now? No. Okay, forget it. Just stay with the now. How easy. Yes, yes. But, you know, like, how am I going to talk about it? I can't go to my husband or I can't go to my wife or my daughter and say, well, but, you know, there is no self. There is no free will.
You don't exist. They will they will lock.me up why would you want to say that why wouldn't you want to listen why wouldn't what you want to find out how that incredible dream looks like for them ask them questions see what's real See what's immediate. See what's precious for them. And then you will very, very quickly learn that the truth isn't a hidden secret, something that you have to dig out and find after 20 years of meditating. Everyone knows that. But they know it in their own language, in their own way. On the Al-Anon meetings that I used to go with Bob, people say, look, you know, it is just about getting out of your stinking thinking and dropping in the heart of this moment.
Leave one day at a time. Well, that's another way of presenting that very, very basic, simple truth without coming to a difficult, wordy, philosophical concepts of Advaita Vedanta or any other basis doctrine or anything. Without the very, very confusing words that seem like, oh my God, I need to evolve my consciousness before I even get to understand or comprehend those difficult ideas of ever fresh self shining.Well, look, there is really none of the ideas in which it is presented are really it. No map is the territory. No concept is the reality. And there is absolutely no need to juggle all that jargon and to be able to present it in a way that is...
Mmm, impressive. You know, Nisargadatta would say, I swallowed the world. You know, I can't say I swallowed the world. Oh, no, I can say there's no I, so who swallowed the world? And now we're going to go with Advita police and just beat each other up for who is right, who gets it wrong. No concept. No thought can actually adequately represent the very, very simple, obvious, basic message that there is nothing wrong with this moment unless you engage with the imagination, with thinking. Thinking that uses judgment and comparison to say, yes, but this is wrong and that is wrong.And because, and I find it to be a valid point, we've been told there is not enough questions actually happening in our groups.
And yeah, there isn't enough. There isn't that many questions. So I have Anthony Wills says here on Facebook. You said the word confidence. I like to look at what you confide in. If you confide in ego, it is not as powerful as confiding in the unchanging. Yeah, absolutely. What we actually point out, and I love Bob's style. Find the ego. Show me the ego. What is it? You see, people often conceive of ego as a personality structure. So they would say dogs have ego and cats have ego because they all have personality. In another sort of way of presenting the ego, ego is a sense of separate self, sense of separation.
So it isn't even a sense, it really is a belief. It's a belief that I am a separate person. So you can't confide in a concept, in a word.believe I am this, that or the other. It's just a line of sounds. They're just words. There's nothing alive and nothing sentient about believing in words. So the only confidence is the natural confidence in the fact of your own existence. Are you not confident that you exist? Do you think there is any doubt about it? If you think there is any doubt about your own existence, maybe to just solve out that doubt, see if you could pause it for a moment, stop existing, just for a couple of seconds, just to see if the existence arises or it disappears and what is left when that existence is gone.
See if you can, for a moment, just get rid of it. And then... Of course, you'll find out that even if existence as a concept is gone, that which is prior to the concept, the existence still, I call it in the other word, is still there. So the confidence in the fact that I am. isn't something that could be mistaken in a confidence with a belief, which may be gone when you get enough vodka in your system.or maybe gone when you get unconscious for the surgery. So this wasn't that type of a confidence. And thank you, Anthony. That's a good distinction. We do want all the precision that we can get.
So in a way, talking about it and sharing it with your dear ones, imposing it on other people is not necessary, it's not healthy, it's not kind.waiting till they come to you and ask. Or seeing how they already know it themselves and highlight it, bring it to the surface. Because everyone knows that they are. Yes, but you know, they are not enlightened or elevated. They are not, you know, those concepts are again, beliefs that beg to be questioned. I was actually digging into it on our Zoom meetings. We have Tuesdays and Thursdays. I printed out some questions from the last 18 months of our meetings here on Sundays.
And I also printed out some of the questions that Bob asked to Nisar Gadatta and his friend Mark West. He was doing the scribbling and... And some of those questions were asked by Bob. Some of them were asked by other people. And a question, one of the questions that I was just digging into was about the elevated consciousness. You know, oh, you know, people need to elevate their consciousness. And perhaps scientists with all their possibilities of quantum mechanics and all the intelligence, maybe their consciousness is more elevated and they can grasp it easier. Misconception lies again in the definition of terms. What is the consciousness?Can that have levels?
And if it has a levels, then we need just completely different new scale. Now, what consciousness has the dog? What consciousness has the stone or the tree? And then we dig into another big map of the philosophical system. So we bring it back again to the basics. Even a newborn baby, without any words, without any programs in that biomachine, you can look into their eyes, you can see the light shining out of it. There is consciousness. Is it higher, lower, medium? Does it grasp existence? Does it grasp quantum mechanics? What does it matter?And don't get me wrong, it's all beautiful, you know, all those maps of reality.
Wow. Wow. The psychology. Wow. The shamanism. Beautiful. They are absolutely gorgeous. But don't mix the map with the territory. Because this is where the suffering lies. And of course, if life wants to mix the map with the territory, it will. It will, and it will believe the representations, the thought processes and the ideas that, you know, this is who I am. I know who I am. I'm a person. I'm a woman. I am this, that, and the other. And nobody will tell me that I'm not this person. Nobody has any investment in telling you anything, really. Whatever anyone is telling you is just happening within that same dream that consciousness is having right now.So it really is right here, not in everyone else, what they say, what they believe, what they believe about you, what the conceptual image they have of you, what the conceptual image you have of them.
They're all appearances on the screen. The truth is much more immediate and much more basic. Right in this moment. Very simple. So the levels of consciousness, there was another one. Who has the knowledge of self? Who is enlightened? Who is there to understand non-duality? Who is there to have no free will? Who is there to be or not to be separated?The question which sometimes is asked in a way of being just a Vita police and being nasty and wanting to trip people up. And a question that is also quite valid, but not to be answered. But to make you look for yourself, to make you, you tell me, who is there to have the knowledge of the self?
What is the knowledge of the self? A set of concepts that you can memorize?Who is there who wants to have anything or be anyone? And this one requires a little pause and having a look. Who's there? Who's here? Anybody home? And can you? Without defining any object that is owning the presence, can you deny it?then you can see that that you are is right here, is undeniable. But what you are, you can only define using the imagination, using the concepts. And that biocomputer, which is designed to help navigating the intricacies of the whole dream, to preserve the body, to keep it alive so that God can see, hear, taste, touch and smell.
And sorry for the word. This is the word that is quite inflammatory, but it's just kind of a good slogan. You know, you hear us. God can see, hear, taste, touch and smell. But you and God are not two. It's that sense of presence that I am, that Moses, Bob had this beautiful little metaphor, Moses coming to the mountain and managing all those people going into all sorts of mischiefs and writing down the tables that he came through the still small voice right in the mountain. And then he's having a conundrum, like, what am I going to tell them? Who sent me? And then this little small voice says, tell them I am.
My name is I am. I am sent you. And then as Bob describes it, Moses says, shit.I am. I am that I am. There is no other I am. It is immediate. It is here. It is here. Within that I am. Everything else is. I am is primary, is prior, and it is undeniable. So even to say I am that I am is too much because you can't define the I am. You can't grasp it. You can't put boundaries on it. Well, you can imagine, but even that imagined boundaries that I am inside this biological machine, that's the imagination, that's the thought. Little baby that is already conscious or cat or dog that are conscious they don't imagine concept like that and a consciousness doesn't suffer because of that imagination but if i imagine i'm something trapped in this body mind that is aging and breaking apartWell, that's hell.
I'm imprisoned. I need my way out. I'm going to seek and find the way out. And I'm going to do whatever it takes. And I'm going to follow anyone who will tell me what to do. And I will do whatever they want me. I'm going to give them all my money and sleep with them and do whatever it takes. Ah, what a dream. And is it going to take me any closer to the fact of my existence that I am right now?But the dream is amazing. Think of a spiritual search, going to Course in Miracles Academy, Zen monasteries, ashrams, talking to gurus, meeting enlightened guys.
Wow, what a dream. Bob had that spiritual search happening for him, the preparation for spiritual search, which was intense psychological suffering induced by alcoholism happening for 16 or 17 years. An equally long spiritual search when it actually started. When the self-medicating didn't work anymore. And looking outside first for someone to tell him how to meditate, to give him mantra. He was sitting with a Soham from Transcendental Meditation for a decade. This one, yeah, yeah, but Soham he got from, gosh, what's his name? Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, yes, yes, yes. Though the same mantra is,
presented in, I heard that mantra, I don't know from how many different schools.
It's kind of obvious. It means I am that. I read that in your book, I think. Yeah. I wasn't so sure about that. Not that I'm frivolous. I have a mantra, but it's not that. Yeah, yeah. It's just one of the ways of bringing the attention back. To center that processor so it doesn't go scattered around along all the past and future and imaginations and dark scenarios and trauma and all that nonsense that habitually learning through imitation observing our parents and our teachers and and everyone It gets... I'll just say in that particular process, the mind is allowed to wander, but you bring it back to the mantra.
It's just that simple. But you're writing what you're saying, but there's no control of the mind. Oh, you know, when I was a kid in primary school, we learnt this song. A frog went walking on a summer's day. A hum, a hum. A frog went walking on a summer's day. A hum. You know what a hum means? It's like, I am. Wow. There you go. You remember if you did something wrong, I used to go, um, um, remember? Amma. Amma is mother.In Sanskrit. Amma. Amma, yes. Yeah, exactly. Yes. Yeah. Just a sound. It's just a sound. It's just a sound. It's all the mantras too.
It's just a sound. But, you know, perhaps there's some psychology in the psychology of it, right? This is what you're saying about the mind. It still feels, there's a sense of being troubled. Yeah, you're identified. Yeah, and you're identified, so you suffer. Yeah. Yeah. The only person you can trick is yourself, baby. Yes. No one else. Yeah. We have Anthony says here, talking about this with someone close to me, and they are sure, sure, the enlightenment, one is one that reaches nirvana, stops the dream, no more reapers. I just don't see how something that was never born can stop doing so. Beautifully put. Beautifully put.
And you can see again, and this is the whole sort of spiritual circle, which is centered around misconceptions. Beliefs that haven't been questioned. How do you know enlightenment means someone who doesn'texperience the manifested world anymore? How do you know enlightenment means being in perpetual state of ecstasy? Who told you so? How do you know that? Investigate and see all the third-hand information given by the co-dreamers and see what you know beyond concepts. Another slogan, the non-conceptual, ever-fresh presence awareness, which is the only reality that ever is, it can't be questioned. The ideas about enlightenment, they can be questioned. And when they are questioned, they can't stand up.
Because even that beautiful concept, you know, that brings up the whole another map of reality, map of reality in which there is a separate self, that separate self is traveling from body to body, is forgetting, of course, doesn't take any physical brain or hardware or anything with it, can't remember. And this is traveling to uh for whatever reason either for to being punished for the bad deeds that it did in other life or to be rewarded or whatever it is now so it has free will it has decision making power it can do things wrong it can do things right and with it comes the idea that the enlightenment is ending up that cyclefor that me, for that individual karma-bound entity that cannot be found.
So all those maps of reality, all those philosophies are beautiful in themselves. They're quite enchanting, you know, like a fairy stories. They're lovely, but not when you believe them. Because believe, make them appear real, make them feel real. And then you are that separate trapped little entity bound to travel from body to body, be punished for the wrongdoings. It is a lovely philosophy for big, big herd of sheep who have the thinking capacity, who do not even conceive of questioning their own will. And they are being told, they are being inspired by those ideas. And if you do something wrong, you will be reborn as snakes and do right things.
And we will tell you what is right. We will define the good and bad for you. Killing a pig is good and killing a human is bad. Why? For the sake of a society. Killing a mosquito is good or killing a carrot is good. We will define it for you. And if you are not subscribing to Buddhist religion, well, get to another one.You know, get to Christianity. If you do something that is bad, and we will again define it for you, you will go to hell for the eternity of being boiled and tortured by devils. How is that different? It's no different. Beautiful, beautiful fairy story that has its place in managing the herd of sheep.
Of the society who do not, who are not moved to question, who have the life situation and life circumstances too demanding in the game of survival to even have the capacity. And what's wrong with that? Are they any less evolved? There's nothing that is more or less or different unless the judgment, the thought comes and labels itself. Every single appearance, every single piece of manifestation is an extension of that one life essence vibrating to those patterns, shapes and forms. Whether it has IQ of a monkey or whether it has IQ of a professor, whether it has a body mass factor, whether it has cancer or whether it has beliefs.
It makes no difference. It's the masterpiece of creation, that emptiness becoming form. And seeing as that, without judgment, with the curious,There is nothing wrong with being wrong, with being believer, with believing in Santa or flat earth or separation. It is just life vibrating and expressing as everything, expressing as philosophical systems, religions. And there is not even anything wrong with religions. They have their place. Everything in the manifestation has its place.And with withdrawing that sense of righteousness, I know better how things should look. I know better how people should dress or behave or think. I will impose my belief system on others because I know better.
And they need fixing. Yes, they're broken. They need fixing. Yeah. Who is there to fix?Nobody wants to be fixed. When you believe you have an insight into something and you believe the thought that you must share it with everybody, you save them. Like Jesus Christ. Yeah. Saving souls, crusading for the good of non-duality. Then you missed the point. Yes. And if you actually realize that you are the sense of existence that I am, it doesn't need anything. It's complete. Nothing needs to be fixed or changed. And the same reflection of that same pure perfection of the I am, of the pure existence, It's all around you.
And you recognize that pure perfection of existence. Why would you want life experiencing itself as a believer in heaven or hell or karma or reincarnation? Why would you want to...fix it in any way if you don't see it broken if you see there is no self in here and there is no self in that beautiful masterpiece of creation vibration of energy emptiness becoming form equally empty of a driver equally conscious of the I am, expressing itself as the belief, as the abuse, you know, they are villains, they are abusers. We were exploring a couple of Zoom meetings ago the situations where they were priests. Abusing children, you know, spiritual leaders, abusing.
Why? How? Or ideas like gurus collecting Rolls Royces or screwing whatever they could. From many, many different aspects, seeing the perfection of self-organizing universe, seeing the...amazement of every dream appearing in consciousness and seeing the inherent innocence of the no self of life experiencing through an us every vehicle as the buddha becoming a buddha because of the poor bhaga being sick and puking on the side of the road, or a dead corpse. If the guy didn't suffer, the Buddha wouldn't have looked for the answers within. If Bob didn't suffer, if he wasn't abused, if he didn't lose all his teeth in fights, if he didn't witness his friends dying on the job, or jumping off the window to kill themselves.There is a greater wisdom and a greater beauty in the way the life is dancing itself, expressing, experiencing itself.
It's just being open to put aside all the righteousness, self-righteousness, self-will, all the ideas. I know how it is. I know it is wrong. It should be different. Everything is wrong with this. It should be different. Just resting it and opening up that childlike, curious awareness. Parking aside all the conceptual overlay, all the fairy stories that were imposed, not even imposed, they were adopted. They were imitated innocently. And checking again, looking again. I think that's enough for the introduction. I think we should just start. Anthony says also the concept is helpful for the seeker, but throw it away with all the others. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Thank you, Anthony. They just... Pointers the fingers pointing at the moon but the moon isn't out there the moon is right here i'm just gonna um put that one on silent i'm sorry for the noiseOkay. So, and those pointers, Anthony says also, I love just talking with them and that's all it is. But if they start thinking, I don't get their concept. And so there is someone that doesn't get it. That open space is lost. He is my father, so the thought that he thinks I don't have it was a hurdle I had to overcome, as though there is anyone that does or doesn't. Yeah.
Absolutely. Yeah, beautifully put. There's absolutely no one needs fixing. If life is expressing itself as the fanaticism about vaccines, wow. If they come to you and want to question, well, you may find yourself responding. And again, there is no one here who is moved to respond. It's usually just a natural sense of, I don't know, entertainment of it. That's often what's happening. If someone comes and needs help with the investigation, the investigation, the helping investigation happens. That's all I can say, really. There is no agenda. It appears to happen. It appears to happen. Absolutely. It appears to happen.There's... Also, Anthony was saying how letting go of the belief, concept, idea, that there's something you don't get.
Therefore, there's something you're lacking, missing, not whole. All the pointers are doing are just encouraging.the you that you have believed that you are to take a look and to trust in what you're actually experiencing. Forget about outsourcing your being to others. So Bob was, you know, very good at saying, what is it? What is it? How is it? What is the experiencing there? It's not that you're missing something or can't see the bliss of it.that pure consciousness that Kat talked about when you appeared to be a child without all the layers of the seeming layers of concepts because it's not like they sit somewhere in a box right comes up spontaneously when somebody asks you who are you make it up on the spot yes it's not that you walk around with a formulated me.
It's truly, really, that's, look, pay attention, pay attention, put your attention there, see through it, see how a thought comes up in a moment of doubt. It's almost like a protection. Yeah. Comes up to protect, right? But you buy into it for a little while. It seems like you're lost because your attention is, oh, I lost myself. No, you never lost yourself. You could never not be. You've never known what it is to not be. You've never known. You have no clue, no clue. But how beautiful that it's all sorts of stuff going on all the time, constantly changing. Well, you know, it's art by God.Of course it's wonderful and interesting and all the stuff that we dream about, it's all here.
It's the dream. And it is the waking dream is no different to the so-called sleeping dream. It just comes up. There's no control. You can't steer it. You can't manifest the outcome that you want. Believe I, if I, my willpower is great enough and if I focus enough, I will get that Rolls Royce. I will get that million dollars in the bank. If I only believe, believe, believe, well, in a way, that which we put our attention on believing does become reality. Yeah, it does. But not in the way you fantasize about.Be careful what you wish for. Mm. That's it. If you're a true one.
And the beauty of that whole incredible dream is exactly in its fleetingness, in its impermanence, that everything lasts just now. Your thoughts from yesterday are gone. Your body from 10 years ago is gone. Your relationships from 10 years ago, from a year ago, your relationship with your health, with your wealth, with your loved ones, with your enemies, with whatever the concepts are there, all relating to the me, to the self-centered. They are all constantly changing and fleeting. Like Tanya was saying, you know, even when you have that costume, temporary costume, someone asks you on a yoga class, who are you? Oh, yeah, I'm a practitioner, beginner.
And then they ask you in the taxation office, oh, yes, I am a taxpayer. And they ask you on the mom's group, oh, yeah, I'm the mom of three or four, whatever it is. See how that shape-shifting identity, how that costume, that role, temporary role, is constantly changing. And who is playing the game? Who is playing all those characters? Who is behind every single role, every single costume? And is there a who?Because you would say maybe there is an I, a person, an individual, an entity. And how would you define the boundaries of that entity? Ah, you know, because I can tap here and I feel it and I tap here and I don't feel it.
Well, guess what? I did feel it. Yeah, but if he taps himself, I can't feel it. Well, it's still arising within the consciousness that I am. And within that consciousness, it is experienced. It's experienced as the visual, not exactly as the kinesthetic, but it's experienced. It arises in a consciousness. And what doesn't? Your thought about another city, another location, people who are not present in the immediacy are also arising in your consciousness. Dreams at night are rising in a consciousness. And when I say your consciousness, you know, it doesn't mean your individual consciousness. Because individual consciousness exists only as a theory. I can theorize that, you know, I had different dream than Tanya.
Tanya has individual consciousness, which is equipped and it is packed with different dreams. But guess what? Both of them arise within the only consciousness, the one consciousness.The knowledge of my dreams, the imagination of her dreams. Right here, right now. There is only this moment right now. There is only that one field of open consciousness and whatever arises, people with their belief systems, different than mine, arising here. People with their religions. How about eons of the past? And every person appearing and dying there with their dreams and everything. Right now, arising as the thought, as the mental image. The imagined past. The imagined past. The imagined beings of the past.
The imagination of me in the past. What I was yesterday, five minutes ago. Well, just take a look. What's the actual experience? It's just right now. And then it's gone. You can't grasp it. You can't hold on to it. There's nothing to... Full and empty at the same time. What a cliche, but that's... No, it's not. It's a dark comedy. Absolutely the dream, pairs of opposites. Yes, swinging. Yeah. Swinging and like this, chasing the tail and swinging. And you as the individual can't grasp it. No. No. You can't find yourself. You can't reach in. You can't. There's no. Who are you? I don't know. So as long as you.As long as you're in grasp mode, that's it.
You're in ego mode. Grasp, enrich. Yeah, but once you start to let go, You're into a different space. Or even when the grasping is registered, you know, when you see that grasping arising, trying, wanting, wanting money, wanting understanding, wanting enlightenment, wanting to go to the toilet and empty your bladder. After the... It's the same. After the same thing. But it is only now. But see how all the feelings, you know, the desires are just feelings, vibrations of energy arising in that same consciousness in which bodies are arising. Thoughts, mental images, past and future arising in that field, registering in the capacity, witnessing capacity, cognizing emptiness.
Nothing is excluded. It is that simple. Whatever arises is just a temporary flickering light coming up and that's it.So any one of you would like to pick a question and answer? Because everyone knows the answer. The answer is simple. Pick a question. I have two lists of questions. No? Yes? Your turn. In everyday life, when do you let somebody walk over you? Wait a second. Guys, can you hear Haiman? Just a question from the Zoomers. Can you hear him? Give us a thumbs up. Thumbs up, yeah. Yes. Yes. Okay, lovely. Yeah, you can speak up too because you're far away from the mic. body walk over you and when do you fight?
Wow, lovely question. Should I read the answer as well? No, you give us your own. Well, I'm working in a place that it is necessary for me to be under people who walk over me. So that's how I can allow the business owner to hold the business without any perceiving stress from this operator. This is the answer to the question. That's beautiful. That's brilliant. How brilliant is that? You know, how, when do you allow people to walk over you? And when you don't, well, depends on your situation. When you are in a position, when you are at service and people walking all over you is part of the game.
Well, that's when, when it is happening. You know, when you get there. Exactly. Thank you. That was, yeah, that was brilliant. Exactly. You just discover. You discover when you fight back, that's when you fight back. When you let them walk over you, well, that's when you, you know, that life is that simple. It's a constant discovery. Right now, they're spitting in my face. Okay, so when do I let them spit in my face? Well, I'll tell you when it happens. Nisargadatta had that question asked to him. You know, what if people, and Bob had that question asked, and I had that question asked, what if someone, you witness someone beating a child on the road, what are you going to do?Well, how do I know?
Let me see. And one day, you know, who knows? I may scream or yell. Another way, I may find myself slapping someone. And yet another way, I may find myself calling the services. Who knows? I want to guarantee from you. I want to guarantee from you that you're a good person and that you'll do the right thing when the time comes. I want certainty. Don't you see it? I don't like not knowing what's... I want to be able to control. If I know, then I can control it. Yeah, absolutely. The control and the right thing. Look. We will have somebody decide what's the right thing, dictate what's the right thing, condition you, because in one culture, this is the right thing.
In another culture, this is the right thing. So which is the right thing? Okay, we'll ask the society. We'll ask our leaders, religious, spiritual leaders. For some, the right thing is to, you know, service the guru. Yeah. Or desire. Yes. It happens. Give them all the money. Yeah. But just as when you look for the mini-me, the internal controller, you can't find anyone. There's no one there. That's it.There's no one behind those eyes, those eyes, those eyes, those eyes. Actually, that's interesting because that was the metaphor with Austin Powers, you know, the mini-me. The mini-me? Oh, that's right. Yes. Yes. And in some cultures or some portions of cultures, the question is no longer the right or wrong thing.
It's more what's going to result if this happens or what's going to result if that happens. And that's still a duality, but it's a slightly more open, freer one. And there's no question of whether it's right or wrong to be open and free, more open and free. Although I doubt there's many people on the planet that have got to that point. Exactly. You say that so well because it's a dog chasing its tail, isn't it? But it's just, you know, it's just another thought. And then another thought and another thought. And, oh, a definition is a thought. And defining is a thought on a thought.
It's just a happening. Yes, it's a happening, but the happening is unbounded. Yes. And all of it, it's prior preconceptual. It's happening in preconceptualness. And our consumerism culture is the, you know, there is no right or wrong. There's profitable and not profitable. Yeah, that's a stepping stone to this response and then that response. Yeah, that's one of the stepping stones. And profiting, of course, me, right? Or whatever I represent, I may embellish or be in.to my business, to my enterprise, to my nation, you know, whatever the identity is. It's about, you know, that's one of the definitions of right or wrong. It's a funny one, but it is.
Or, you know, the right or wrong is what suits me, you know. If I control you or if I... Profit from you that's the right thing at that moment is the thought in that moment that's all it is the judgment the thought that comes up in that moment yeah and it's constantly shifting and you can't say what's coming first but part of the package runs out to get me therefore i'm doing right by myself to make sure i come first you know and you know and you know everybody else is a narcissist but not me yeah yeah yeah and and also you know the old definition of right and wrong you know right is that which supports the purpose and wrong is that which moves you away what's the purposeOr maybe staying present all the time on the razor's edge, just being present, just not letting any thoughts slip unnoticed.
Torture. Torture, being your own gendarme or, you know, SS man, soldier, which is just monitoring constantly, just controlling, controlling mind, controlling the spontaneous activity and rigid and ass squeezed and, oh, shit, I got to be so mindful. I'm never, ever going to let one thought slip unnoticed. Wow. Yeah, the interesting thing about that is that's the goal, but when you get to that state, you're unconsciously actually just fully identifying with another thought. And that thought is, I mustn't think. That's the subconscious and the pure discomfort because you're fully identified with this thought, attempting to be free of thought. And then the suffering comes from that.
How beautiful. How brilliant. What an incredible show. Yeah. Identifying as a thought I must not think. I need to quieten my mind. I, the mind, need to quiet my mind. I, mind. And all of that is just one arising.That consciousness which doesn't give a shit, which is having a ball. And which is clocking all of it. Yeah, I feel like I've been recently or occasionally falling into this trap of, you know, maybe I'm like sitting silently for some time and not, and having the judgment that, you know, this is thoughts, things aren't, you know, last week I was experiencing this, this week I'm not experiencing this.
And this kind of suffering coming in and seeing that there is a subconscious belief that like, I'm trying to get something. If I don't, if things don't go like this, I won't get something in the future. And that's the very, that, that the very thing that through the practice of sitting is being attempted to being transcended. And this is very easy to fall into a trap with any kind of. Practice where there's often a subconscious belief that this practice will achieve an outcome and like true practice should be the relinquishing of all expectation or of all whatever but as soon as something becomes an action there's a tendency to for thought to arise and to take ownership of that action and to then project an outcome from action.
And the disappointment if the outcome isn't achieved. Yeah.the goal that I am to achieve in the future. Yeah. There is a kind of a beautiful perfection to it, though, because in that occurring, the opportunity to see this happening is presented again and again. Yeah. And it's funny because I read this question, like, how can I cease to identify with emotions like anger? And that's exactly what occurs when you have an expectation of the way something should be and that isn't the way it should be, the way that it is. That then that's where anger arises or frustration or whatever kind of variation of anger arises.
And, you know, Bob used to always say, I don't know if it was his or he was quoting someone, you know, watch the mind and see how it functions. And that... there's, you know, with any emotion, when we ask who, you know, who is experiencing that, it's quite, if you have the space, it's quite simple to see it as it is. And, you know, you're no longer attached to that emotion. Although, It is quite common that if you don't look at, if you maybe don't look or investigate the mind and how that is occurring in the first place, they can continue to come up, come up, disidentify, disidentify.
Although I found it very useful to see, to look exactly at what is occurring.like look and see what is occurring in the mind that is then causing me to react and does it have any reality is there any actual substance in in the same way that you look to see Is there an actual person here? And that same means of looking can be used to look and see how is the mind functioning or how is this occurring? And once you see through a reaction or a pattern and see that it's... I don't know, it doesn't exist. Once you see through, it's greatly diminished. Those patterns are much, much more diminished.
Like smoke and mirrors. Yeah, it's like smoke. It's like smoke. You try and look at it and it doesn't exist. But it appears to exist. And you see the magic, how amazing it is that this arises and it feels so real. Wow. You're watching the mind and you see how it constructs that incredibly solid, convincing dream. And it is you are the presence in which this incredible miracle arrives right in front of you. So getting trapped by it is almost like. A gift because then you step back and okay show me how to And it's a gift to actually have you.to be able to articulate that detail because anyone can relate to that.
But it's still the illusion that's seeing that. So you're just swapping one illusion for another. Well, there is just seeing. If there is a me that is seeing, yes. That it is. I mean, you're either trapped or you're not. I don't think there's anything in between. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, but there's no you. Yeah, that's the thing. But you can't, like, you can have as many ideas or you can have a program or you can have a mantra and so on and so forth, but that's still the illusion. Yes, there's an imagining of being trapped. Yes. And that's the incredible thing. Who's imagining? But there's a knowing.
Yes, but if I play with those concepts, then I'm just... You back up. Yeah. That's right. It's just thought after thought. It's got to be a spontaneous awareness. It can't be a gradual thing. Maybe in hindsight it is. I don't know. But it has to be spontaneous. So there's no, I mean, any... What has to be? The mental functioning of any description. The cognition. What has to be a gradual thing? No. He said it has to be a gradual thing. What? I don't know. It's never not there. It, to which we're unnameable. Yeah. That which can't, you can't put your finger on, for want of a better word.Yeah.
Yeah. Never not that. Never. Just this and nothing else. Yeah. Yeah. You could say the observation is the shape of what's arising, but that might not be working. And then there might be some alternative like body ways or emotional, social ways. Also, for example, when I... There just arose here that there was too much sadness going on like i never had a lot of anger ever but sadness and fear were the two and just there was you know my 20s like oh okay so i went out and got an orange congas and started playing them a lot and you know it's just like there's a movement there that might be another way to reduce you know an emotion of observation isn't the shape of what's arising isn't appearing you know you know what just i'm trying to find a name the way of taking eye observing from and all that right out yeah so this came up with like basically you know there is a shape of what's arising you know what's arising yeah yeah And I'm equating that to observation.
Yeah. Otherwise, some things just disappear because of another action that takes place. And it's never known the shape of what arose, you know. Yeah. Like it doesn't ever pop up. The shape of it never pops up. Shape, appearance. Yes. I got a couple of comments here. And I just opened the chat box for you guys on Zoom. And if you also want to...you know, join the discussion, unmute yourself, raise the hand up. I really do want you included. And for those who are watching us online, you are also welcome to join Zoom. The link is on Bob's website, sailorbobadamson.com slash meetings. And we have... Sally says, I'm curious how non-duality teachings relate to self-improvement or changing ourselves.
How do you reconcile the idea that there is nothing to fix with the very human tendency to want to improve, change or enhance aspect? Of our lives or ourselves that's a beautiful question sally and thank you for that and the easiest shortest answer because i have a couple of more comments is the same way as everything else in nature if you look at the young eagle in the nest stretching its wings and then having its first flight and the second and the third and every time it flies it flies higher and it flies longer it is a natural functioning of the world of the manifestation to improve and grow you know if you see a bird learning to sing first it just chips and then it has a beautiful beautiful song longer and longer depending on the situation uh if the flower has hasappropriate environment, it will always grow as big and as beautiful as it possibly can.
And so are humans. You know, like we have that inherent tendency and preference for pleasure, which is love and beauty. We have it inbuilt, you know, that part of a survival instinct, which will tell this whole body-mind machine that it is better off when it is safe. It is better off, and a safety means, you know, for the social creatures like us, the safety means I'm not rejected by the tribe. Because if I am rejected, if everybody hates me, I'm going to be eaten by wild creatures. So that part of the survival mechanism will make me learn to walk, to talk, will teach me the kindness, the loving kindness, will make me want to look after the body, not make it stink.
And actually, all of that is part of the natural functioning. It is not that, oh, I want to improve myself, therefore I'm an ego-driven, self-obsessed, whatever. No, the ego doesn't exist. That tendency, if I'm singing, that the more I sing, the better I sing.is just the same as with any other creature. But it is a lovely question because it often is, there is often that big contradiction between non-duality, which is, again, and beautiful what you, Ben, said, you know, it is an immediate realization in the moment. And then what progressive or what slow progress can there be in the immediate realization that, okay, there is a presence of existence and there is a stuff arising.
Or even like Tony would say, there is no presence of existence and the stuff rising, whatever language you want to use. And gradually, you know, it is in time happening more often and stays for more longer. That's a story. Because the immediacy is just, yes, either there is enough relaxed attention to realize existence, the presence of existence, or there is not, full stop, and it's just dreaming happening. So this... There is a space also for progress in that. And we have, Anthony says, can I just say that what you guys do is so beautiful, even in the world of non-dual speakers, you are one in a million and a heart.
Wow. Wow. That's beautiful. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Well. Thanks, Juan, to know.It's only one. Yes, so I don't know, would any one of you like to elaborate on that self-improvement idea or self-help idea or anything? How does it even marry that tendency to want to be a better mom for your dog or for your child? I think you articulated that quite well, Kat. I was saying it's an innate thing. I think a lot of us have been through the self-improvement. It's so attractive when you first start questioning that maybe there's something internal that's the cause of your problems. Yes. And the self-help is so appealing because it's like a...
Be more confident if i can be this it can be this and at least for me anyway because it was probably like you know part of that was like dealing with like emotional work and traumas the nervous system does seem to calm down and make stuff like this accessible at least that was in my experience it's not and i think it's not uncommon for people to have gone maybe through that kind of like self-improvement and then seeing that these things don't give you lasting peace or they don't free you from suffering it's like it's like chasing goals or you know chasing money or chasing anything it's it's onlythe attempt at chasing these and getting whatever it was you were chasing that you see that that's not yeah it's there's kind of a beautiful uh it's just like there's just a beautiful perfection to how this thing unravels that and how they disappoint yes yes yes completely always empty Yeah, and then you just put other goals like enlightenment or awakening.
And it's the fundamental mechanism of mind to chase or project into the future. Yes. And that it's just the goal keeps subtly shifting, shifting, shifting. And even now, like that is still here, that there's this subtle... Like I said, if I meditate, then I'll have this constantly, like this subtle action of mind that is seeking an outcome or seeking satisfaction. I'll be reinforced. It's what you said about the nervous system, because the nervous system is... Is like the antenna of consciousness. So once that settled down, you settled down. Like is it a parasympathetic response or a sympathetic response? Yeah, I think for here, self-help has actually been like probably the most effective form of release.
Like here, self-help is justout of all the things that exist in the world, there's just millions of different things in the world. And that's one of the ones that has a large proportion based on release becoming like a negative detail. And I could actually have negative details and positive details. And to me, I see, you know, a negative detail as a letting go and some movement to the open energy rather than the congealed energy. So I think self-help is like right along the spectrum in terms of release and becoming a negative detail to the negative, to the additional, you know. So I think by and large, it's mostly one of the more release-based things on the planet.
Whether people then get attached to goals as part of that and maybe a lot more do because I've never really been a goal-based person because I've never been in free world so um you know maybe it's um but then the releases weren't effective until I came to Australia because you just have to be you know that the system has to be releasing or not releasing you know and it has to be at that point where it is releasing literally you know this yes you know, I don't know what the Latin for that would be, but it is what it is when it is. And yeah, so I think then notions can come up in people like, oh, self-help's a mess, that's all rubbish, I'll just ignore it.
But I don't think it's like that at all. Like it just, whether there's a holding on to goals or holding on to I'm doing it. That's a parallel, I believe. Well, I don't believe, but you know.That's a peril. That's just a narrative. Yeah, but people like will tend to hear people like, oh, they're just smashing stuff really. So I'll just ignore it altogether. But you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. You go, what's the baby and what's the bathwater? You know, you just get some clarity around it. And also the idea that you have a choice in the matter. I have a free will and I will subscribe to the self-help or I will not subscribe.
Yeah, but I think some of the problems going on that people are... And for many, the whole notion of me doing it is the biggest problem. Here it's not at all. It's the one thing that was never a problem.You can't take that as everything. I think people just got to watch. They don't take that as everything. That I'm doing it means that self-help's out. Because here, a lot of self-help, depending how effective it is, whether that nervous system is ready or not to release. Can actually you know be full of effective release mechanisms if it comes up it comes up if it doesn't it doesn't yeah that's what i'm trying to say and i get too hung up yeah only on if it's um taking the i'm doing it out of it yeah exactly then you're the doer no no but i'm saying that's not 100% of it
Don't get too wrapped up that that's the only thing going on here.
There's also a big release going on as well. Yeah. Quite possibly. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Possibly. Possibly. Yeah. To different percentages. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And shift too, doesn't it? Yeah. Shifting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's literally changing. Snap back to like a lot more hanging on. Yeah. A lot more positive detail going. Yeah. But there's a clocking of it. A cognising. Yeah, more or less. And Bob's great. There's more clocking than less clocking because I think the nervous systems that are drawn here are the clocking types, you know, and the enneagrams of four fives and sixes, you know, rather than the physical energetic movement types or the emotional connection types, you know.
We had Jane having a hand down for about 10 minutes. I wonder if you, Jane, would you like to come in? Sorry, we wanted to include you, but we wanted everyone included. Can you hear me? Yes, yes, yes, yes. I really liked your explanation, Kat, about, you know, birds and wanting to fly better and higher and so forth. Yeah, that was really good. Except then in comes the mind and says, well, then that's about, then there's the future element of that. It's not just now. Can you? Can you think of that, please? Yes.So is there a future element to that? And where is it if you don't think about it?
Okay. Too easy. Yeah. Fair enough. Good. Thanks. Yeah. But thank you for the question. Yeah. And see back to the self-help idea, you know, if, yeah, self-help, you know, I'm doing the meditation, mantra meditation. Oh, I'm doing the breath work exercise. We do chakra toning exercise. Therefore, I am doing it. Therefore, I will stop doing it. Can you see I'm doing it and I stop doing it? It's the same thing, still reinforcing the illusion of self. I decided to do it. I decided to stop it. So therefore, whether there is a sense of self-improvement, whether the improvement happens or it doesn't happen, the still is just happening the same way as your bladder feeling.
Yes, yes. The bird. isn't, you know, doesn't have a concept about being its best self. Yeah. Right? There appears to be a growing and a changing and, you know, but really it's just what's happening in that spontaneous instant. Yeah. The bird doesn't have a plan. About educating itself or, you know. Goals. Yeah, that's right. It doesn't have a notion of the future. Yes.And yet it happens anyway. Whatever happens, happens. And this is a beautiful distinction, you know, what Lucky was saying. And generally, the whole self-help idea is the idea that there is something inherently wrong with me. And I'm going to fix it. If I'm more confident, if I am more successful, if I have better way of articulating myself, or maybe I learn some sales skills or some manipulation or some hypnosis, I'll be better off influencing people, controlling people.
I'll be better. Than I am right now, but what will be better? The body, mind and feet. Well, well, you can still see that. Whole argument in the context of survival. It's a natural, you know, it's a calculation by the mind body to say, okay, if I have this skill, I'm going to survive better. So a lot of that urging is, is, can be, can be seen in that context. So it's okay. Tick. Tick. Non-duality tick. It's not even okay. It's inevitable. It's inevitable. Yes. So self-help is okay. It's inevitable. Yes. It's inevitable. The question is whether the narrative is. It's right. Yes, I understand.
With the recognition that this is...It's the natural tendency, you know, the natural tendency coming out of the emptiness that I am. Now I'm going to go and take a dance class. I'm going to write a book. Wow, I'm not doing it. This is just something that life is experiencing and expressing through it. Or the tendency is, oh, I am not good enough. Maybe if I learn to dance or I write the book, I will eventually deserve to be loved or I will eventually deserve to have a little bit of a respite from the self-loathing and the self-hatred and I will be slightly better. There is no one there.
So if there is that clarity, that recognition, there is an existence. Life is living itself through this body-mind and it's expressing as a hunger and then it eats, as a poor brother and goes to the toilet, as an attraction to a belly dance and it goes to the class. You're a gangster. So that's the point. If there is a narrative saying that I must be more confident because I will then increase my chances to survive, that is already too far away from the spontaneity of the unfolding in which, oh, the attraction is discovered. Oh, the attraction is charged. Oh, that charge causes the attraction to look for the...the online class wow and it causes it to go by the way i don't go for any that was just an example it doesn't matter if i would it totally doesn't if the attraction shows up here to eat meat not eat meat to help animals to stand up for the homeless or to whatever it is and there is no credit taking oh i do it to have more self-respect or i do it to impress my my peers or i do i am not doing it this is life spontaneously expressing like through the eagle in flying or through the magpie by singing The thought may come up to own the action, to own it and see through that.
Yes, yes. Personality-based being cat is absolutely the opposite because they're always doing something for game. That's just a belief. That's a belief. Yes, that interpretation is a belief that we invite to question. Yes, I went as... The ego is not there and then you're just acting. It's just flowing. It's just like, and yet still in the communication, you know, we were visiting, the friend was visiting from interstate and she looked at the book. Oh, did you write that book? I said, yes, that's not true, but that's good enough for the conversation. The book happened through me. Through this that you call me. You've got to have some syntax.
And what's the problem? It's no problem.You are is the important thing. Yeah. But again, the confidence in the fact that you are and that's enough. That's it. Exactly. In that miracle of existence, experiencing itself through and as you, that's enough. And if there is any belief, limiting belief arising, noticing that belief and wow, wow, that's a thought. I'm not good enough and I'm unworthy. Wow, what a thought. What an idea. Oh, I'm guilty. I've done something wrong. I hurt people. I have to fix myself. I'm not, you know, I need to improve myself. Wow, what a thought. And look what that thought brings in. It brings in the whole universe of desires, of hopes and futures, of goals.
Wow, what a dream. But this dream is just flashing into existence right now. And poof, gone. And the existence is the baseline I am, the baseline sense of presence, without which none of those miraculous, beautiful, fleeting dreams, dreams of, oh, yeah, I spoke with my mom last week. Where is she? Oh, the thought of last week brings her alive again. Wow. The friend that came yesterday, a couple of days ago, interstate.Wow, how lovely. But seeing them for what they are, and then you have free entertainment forever. But who has it? It is just waving, flickering, expressing, experiencing, vibrating, showing up to itself, as itself. And then poof, it's gone.
Yeah. It's empty. Yes, empty. Oh, empty. Sorry to be a time. Please. It's like you're talking to the narrator, you know, like whether there's a deeper sense of it that. But it's my ego that's consuming this knowledge. So it's redundant. Show us the ego. But it's like we're just going around in circles. I don't know if I feel this when I come here, but today it's like we're just going around in circles. I'm enjoying it. That's it. So drop it. Yes, drop it. I'm trying, but who's dropping it? So I can't get that in here. That's it. So just go, meh. I've done that. No worries, that's the ego again.
That's it. When you see that you're seeing it. Yeah, but who's seeing it? See that there's a scene. No, there's no ego. There's no ego. But to have the thought. Imagined. Yeah. Yes, but to any thought that I have is that ego. Is there an ego? What is the ego? What is it for you? Well, who are you talking to right now?I have no idea. The talking is happening. Talking is happening. Yeah. Does there have to be a blueprint for the air? I get that, but I can't. I'm stuck. Just look at the stuckness because this is precious. You know, there is a subtle idea that there is someone there inside called ego.
And that someone else is seeing going in circles, in circles. And that's just like, what's the point? You know, why are we, if we are talking, there is a subtle belief there. There is someone there listening to it. Yes, but I'm not interested in that entity anymore. But it's not going anywhere. I knew you were going to say that. If you never know. No, no, no. Properly young doesn't exist. But it's what you're doing, you're hurting my head. I'm not. That's all that's happening, which might be a good thing. What you're saying is thoughts continue to arise. Yes. That's what you're saying. But I'm connected to those thoughts.
So what? Do you believe them? Are you? So what? Thoughts continue to arise. So what? And a hurting head, you know, trying to grasp it. Hurting head, thoughts are arising and arguing with thought. All of that happens in the consciousness. Yes, but I don't want to do this. I don't want to. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Beautiful. Just notice all of that. All that fight arising, all that defending arising. Well, give me the entity and I'll take it on in a karate match or something. Like, I want to be able to... Embrace it. Okay, but who wants to smash the entity? This is the entity itself.that wants to smash they both imagined they both are rising in that presence yeah the me that wants to smash the me yes doesn't it call for laughing i see the humor in it but it's yeah my i need i need I don't know, some fresh air, I think.
Yeah, maybe just completely relax, see the humour of it, see the joke of it. Yes, but it's, again, I know. I know. Yes, there is a tension. There is a subtle belief in one of those I, the I, the entity or the I that wants to smash it. There is somewhere there is some tension and resistance. Yeah. Can you see the eye running around? Check it out. Yeah. Can you get a sense of an eye running around in there? Oh, absolutely. That's a lot of sense. Yeah. Maybe zoom in on it, maybe. I've never seen it every time, but maybe zoom in on it. Yeah.
Good point. Very good point, Tony. Yes. Never know what's going to work when you know yes yeah it really is like it really just zoom in what is that i who is that i who am i you might lose it zooming in just when you fall yeah i think when when you get to the question who's who's zooming in again or like yeah that's it's like it's in hindsight it's very obviously the mind like coming up with the questions to argue against the inquiry yes and and sometimes the who wants to see question that gets peppered around a lot the mind will instantly be like yeah i get it i get itBut I think really the only kind of opportunity that we have is to ask that question of ourselves and actually really try to look, really try and look and just as much as you can, see if you can find it.
And then if the question arises, oh, but who's looking, then that's kind of a trigger to follow that question and be like, yes, who is looking? Yeah. And see. It's actually the looking. Yes. It's not the asking of the question or the listening to the question. It's the looking. To actually try and see, can I find this? What's the experience of it? Well, yeah, like, can I find this? And that's... Like, netty, netty, is that what they call it? Yeah. Negation? Yeah, and then, like, and obviously it may last a second or two of looking and then the thoughts come up, like, oh, it's this or it's this or who's even doing this as a pointlet.
Yes. Who is going to find it? Doesn't matter which hole you focus on. Doesn't matter which hole. It's just the discomfort. Yeah. Though I think because this is such a, can be perceived as such a mind-based, What do you want to call it?then often the mind will grab onto the thoughts and remember them. And then they just get fitted into the stream of thoughts. And the actual, the reason it's called a pointer is it's not, the thought is nothing. The thought is attempting to get you to look, like it's pointing, look here. But you have to look, you can't just, you know, the finger that points at the moon is not the moon.
You have to look at the moon. You can't look at the finger because then you're just in thought again. So it's so much more, it feels so much more active than a thought. It's really following that question to see who is disputing this. Yeah. What is the experience of the who? Yeah, like what is there? What is there? Yeah. Whichever works, Bob would say, that's the crucial, that's the crux point. No one can ever do it for you. You have to look for yourself. Yes, yes, but who is the one who is looking? Doesn't matter. Okay, look at the one. Who is the one? Yeah, follow this question.
Who is looking? Okay, who is looking? Yeah, but who is asking who is looking? Okay, okay. Doesn't really matter, but okay, you can jump to that question. No problem. Just accommodate the mind, whatever works. Okay, who is asking who is looking? Just see the source of all questions, because whether it is a question, who am I, whether there is a question, what is I, or who is looking, who is asking a question, it really doesn't matter how the question sounds. It's just what is the source?of wanting to know who is the eye that wants to figure it out and this is really this is when the processor actually goes offline because there is no answer to it but it will and someone telling you that there is no answer is never going to do anything You have to really, really stumble upon that emptiness, that discomfort of non-existence, of no answer, just shit, that void, almost a void.
Just face it for a moment. One moment longer than you can stand it. Because mind can't stand it. It's scary. Yes. And just let it kill you. Let it obliterate the mind. Nothing's going to happen. The greatest panic and fear, the worst it can do to you is render you unconscious for 10 seconds. But it's not going to happen. This is not going to happen. That's the cold face of self-doubt. And this is really when the rubber meets the road. Whether you are willing to give it everything and just really turn that mind to look at itself because this is a generator of all those distractions and now the the laser beam of attention is directed at its own source and that's where ah shit this shortcut is what's wrong with right now if i don't think about it and then for a moment there is no mind and there is nothing wrong and the aliveness is still thereThe presence is still there.
But hey, the mind jumps right in. And then, okay, but who, what, who? That investigation, that looking, going through that moment of discomfort and panic, I want to be in charge. Come on. I want to control the show. This is, oh, I have to find the answer. That sort of illusion of control, that hallucinated controller that wants to run a show has to be exposed. It's just the fun that happens when the running away doesn't happen. It just happens as often as it happens and it gets more often. And I have Anthony says here, speaking to the life essence. Why would we speak to something that isn't there?
Frustration is a good sign. If you ask me, laughing out loud, give up the ghost. Bravo, Anthony. That's it. Frustration is actually brilliant. It's good. It's beautiful. Yes. And thank you for pointing it out. It really is. And again, you know, why do we do it? Well, we don't. Why do we speak to the screen and have all of you guys on Zoom and thank you for being with us? We don't. This is just the shape and the form this moment took. And we are discovering the shape and the form of this moment just as much as you do. This is just what arises in consciousness.
Why are we talking? Do we have agenda? Do you want a story? Oh, yeah, because I know and you don't and I'm going to teach you. You have to pay me.No. That's a joke. No. Talking is happening. Discussing the pointers, exploring the beautiful open secret, a mystery of existence, mystery of the consciousness and everything that arises in it, the joy that comes with it. That's just what's happening. No one is doing anything it's just celebration of life and i think that's the time to actually wrap it up and thank you everyone thank you thank you guys who are online with us and thank you as always yes please i think uh i think the questions were really good though i'd also suggest that perhaps whoever is providing the feedback to you that there's not enough questions could ask some questions if someone is providing that feedback they could take it upon themselves to provide questions yeah yeah that is a super good point that is a very good point though he's beyond the the questions you know he's uh it doesn't stop you asking questions for others sake True, true, yes.
And that was actually his question. That was questioning the format of those meetings. Not exactly in the form of a question with the question mark, but the question with like... There's more discussion. Yeah, those are explorations, really. We're just exploring that which is clear and obvious for the joy of it.And that's that. So thank you again. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for having me on the bus. And I'm going to wrap it up now.