This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
Thank you. And welcome everyone. We're going to have a Jane as a guest speaker today. And we have here Jane, Kat, Tanya, and we have Sim, Glenn, Michael, Sally, Jane, and Sim. So. It is yours, beautiful. And off we go. Ah, well, um... Some of you know the story of Jane, others of you don't. So I'll just give a bit of a background. In 1988, I was doing meditation. With another teacher and I'd been given meditation techniques. I'd been searching since I joined a 12-step group in 1984 for a concept of God that worked for me. And I came across Bob at the meetings and Bob had what I wanted.
While I was doing this meditation course, he said, oh, you might want to read this book. And he gave me.a battered up old copy of I Am That that had come from India. And I sort of half read it while I was doing this meditation. And he said, well, you know, read it and then read it again and read it again and eventually it'll sink in. You know, and I had to get used to the Indian terminology. But there was something about it that just resonated with me. And anyway, I was sitting meditating one day. I had a 12-year-old and a 2-year-old running up and down the hallway, being very noisy, and I was trying to sit.
And meditate quietly and it wasn't easy. And all of a sudden I had this profound sort of thing come up was, I just am. I just am. And so anyway, what Bob had been pointing to was what I was seeking I already was. And that, you know, I was life itself, pure intelligence energy, and that the reason I got caught up, I was getting caught up in an image I had about myself, a memory of myself, or a projection of myself into the future. Which didn't exist. There was only now. And then he would do his wonderful spiel once I started coming to the group.that, you know, we're the essence of the food that was eaten by our parents.
You know, that pure intelligence energy is impregnated in the mother. And then we get labelled when we're little. You're Jane, you're a good girl, you're a bad girl, you're this, you're that. Then society labels us and we get caught up in living in this story about ourselves. We get caught up in living in this false image of ourselves. And it causes a lot of conflict. You know, we used to sit around here, not only at the groups, but also on a Monday morning, you know, with all different pointers. Bob didn't, he wasn't a purist. He would use lots of different pointers to point us to the fact of our own being and that particular.
That particular Monday morning little session we used to have was reading the chapter on awareness by Krishnamurti. And that really stuck with me. I think there's certain pointers that really stick with each person. Not that there is a person, that's just persona, an image. But I think that that unique pattern of energy resonates with certain pointers. And the pointer that really stuck with me, that all the conflict that arose was because I was identifying with this.alleged me and this me could only live in the past or be projected in the future because Bob used to point out over and over again what's wrong with right now if you don't think about it and that also really resonated with me but What really resonated was when the patterns came up, the conflict that came up, not only with others, but within myself.
It was always because I was in the past or I was projecting into the future. And it was always once upon a time there was a Jane, you know. And or, you know, in the future, there's going to be a drain or, you know, and this person said this to me and this person said that to me, you know, you know, it was just exhausting. And I guess I was looking for a way out or I was looking for a way back to the place I'd never left that pure. pre-sense before the labelling, before all the conditioning. And, you know, I guess I wanted freedom from the known, the known which was labels, language, you know, conflict.
And I'd always been looking for that. It took me into alcohol and drugs, which I was able to overcome with the understandingthat something was looking after me. And something was looking after me when I found myself in 12-step groups, when I met Bob, when I was doing all the other things that led me to the place I never left, which is here. Right now that pre-sense, that essence that I am. So, of course, along the way in 40-odd years, you know, I've got caught up in lots of crap over the years, you know, but always come back to that essence that I really am, that pure intelligence energy that breathes me at night.
I don't have to worry about taking a breath. I don't have to worry about digesting my food. Why would I worry about anything else? So, but old habits die hard. And, you know, sometimes those patterns come up to be seen and to be healed. And they don't belong to me because there isn't one. That's what Bob pointed out very clearly, that I was in bondage to a phantom that didn't exist. I was in bondage to a self-centre that didn't exist and that I'd been caught up in an illusory. Story for a very long time.And, yeah, so I just kept coming back. And for a long time, I used to often speak to Bob when I got caught up in a patent.
And he said, oh, one day you won't have to do that. It'll just... The truth will lead away the lie and you'll be, you know, be able to do it all on your own. And that happened. All of a sudden I wasn't ringing Bob to find out how to get out of something or to talk about a conflict or to, all of a sudden it was just, oh, this is what is. And, you know, and I strove and I looked and I, you know, agonized and I had conflicts and I apologized and I did all this and I rang a million times and all of a sudden I didn't have to do that anymore, you know.
And, you know, that doesn't mean to say. That life itself doesn't throw some curveballs. But, you know, while you're not in the past or in the future and identifying with an image, you know, the solutions come up a lot easier. You know, they're just solutions instead of problems, you know. Yeah, so one day, one moment at a time, I was going to say one day at a time, but one moment at a time since...since I got into non-duality in 1988, I live it. I live it and my kids have been affected positively by it, you know, and I guess hopefully the people around me see that I'm living it.
And, you know, and I'm just so overjoyed that I was able to meet Bob at that AA meeting in 1984 and then hear him speak at meetings. And there was something he had that I definitely wanted. And so, you know, just like he. Read that book, Sobriety and Beyond, and said, I've been given a second chance at life. How well do I use it? Well, once I started speaking to him and reading I Am That and coming to the meetings, I thought, well, how well do I use this second chance I've been given? So, yeah, so I've been doing the best I can moment by moment to recognise that I'm life itself, that I'm pure intelligence energy and the rest of it's a story, really.
But, you know, that leaves room for so much love, which is what we are, of course, love, life. Pure intelligence energy, whatever label you want to give it, when you're not caught up in conflicts with an image you have about yourself or projecting into the future or living in the future.past, you've got room to love and to be loved because, you know, like attracts like, doesn't it? So, yeah, I'm a very grateful little Vegemite here. And, yeah, and that's about all that's come up here. But thank you so much for listening. And if anyone's got a question, I'm happy to answer if you wanted to ask anything.
Yes, you want to go on the computer, Chair? No, no, come on. Oh, well. Oh, well. No, that was really very beautiful. Thank you. You're welcome. And I remember one thing, actually, it was December, I think, 2024. Bob wasn't really seeing many people, but we had to have a cake for 40 years of the friendship that Jane and Bob. Shared so we did we had a nice little celebration and what a privilege to actually hear it from the horse's mouth you know knowing knowing this beautiful man for 40 years and living the truth and i like that you know you started with um coming to find the picture or image of God that suits me, that's often where the search begins.
When there is an idea that I have to findfind the enlightenment for me or God for me. I have to be there when this is realized or where this is found. And it doesn't work this way. The peace is where the mind is not. That's why they call it the peace that passeth all understanding. No understanding, no grasping, no intellectual story, no capturing it in a pointer can ever be the truth. No map can be the territory. No word is a thing. But at the same time, what it is pointing to is pointing beyond and prior to that overlay of the whole story of me, that essence of existence that is always here.
And I like when you say, you know, you come back here, here. Have you ever left here? You might be imagining being elsewhere, being something else or someone else and in some other location or place. But you always hear, even to engage in that train of thought, in that mental images, and recognizing that here, that is always and forever underneath everything, that presence of consciousness. Without which there is no dreaming. There's no dreaming about past, no dreaming dreadful future or pleasant future, no dreaming at all. So that one is first and prior. And recognizing and putting your heart intoto the essence of truth, truth which is that which never changes.
That here, that experience, direct experience of always forever being here, that never changes. Whether you are a tiny little child thinking of yourself, I am a good little kid or a bad little kid, or whether you are a teenager with heartbreaks and heartaches, those dreams, those concepts, those ideas of me constantly changing are always happening here. Here is never changing. The content of it is changing all the time. So the reality is the here, is the existence, the presence of consciousness. And the maya, the illusion, the unreality, the decoration, the... I hope you still have that. I don't remember the descriptions. It's kind of fluff happening in the space or just adornments.
Adornments that space is expressing us and true. Every story, every interpretation is an adornment in space. Space is first. Space is nominal. It can't be grasped. It can't be objectified. You cannot tell or experience space because it doesn't have any temperature, it doesn't have any sensorycomponents, it doesn't sound, it doesn't taste, it doesn't look as anything. So you can't even say that it is. But you can't deny it either. The space-like awareness, the presence of consciousness, the existence, the here. Now you can see how that here is eternity, is always here, and it is limitless, and it's timeless and spaceless, and it is, it doesn't end.
Where the skin ends. It doesn't, you're not bigger when you gain 20 kilos. You're not smaller when you are in a tiny body or a tight costume. The here, the presence does not have dimensions. In that presence, everything arises. So it's as big as the whole universe, because the whole universe arises in it. And the body and the eyes, the ears and all the senses arise in here. So to say that the here is limited to the shape of a vehicle it uses. It's another story. And that story has been adopted and believed since childhood. You are told that you are the machine, the body-mind.
You are your vehicle. You are your coat. You are your car. And as you see, the software that runs that whole machine willalways support that every thought is preoccupation with the body with the machine what am i gonna eat or what was it that this um quote that bob often you just mentioned what you shall eat what you shall drink your father has the great joy in providing those things no lily on the field has ever needed to worry or the crow in the on or the birds they don't build their nest and don't they don't worry about the next moment the next moment as jane said you know when the when the situation arises the next moment will provide the resolution because everything is constantly changing there is no need for any contriving of it, staying centered, staying grounded in that, us that, that field of knowing, that openness, that here, that is not limited to one body-mind machine, but it envelops the presence that contains everything the presence that contains that room and every single body in it and whatever you can imagine outside of it because you can't experience right now the planet or the galaxy but you can't imagine it so it is a way of experiencing through imagination But all of it is happening.in this present moment right now, the whole past, the whole future, all of it.
And putting your heart with the truth. That helps. You know, a lot of people look for that God that will suit me. And they are also looking for the relief from suffering and for love and for contentment. But they are looking through the mind. So they're sorting through, like Bob was sorting, through different school of thoughts, different religions, different books, different ideas. If I can't find it here, I'll go there, and maybe there, and maybe there. Or maybe, you know, a lot of people seek for the same thing in getting a career, or getting a better partner, or better house, or faster car. It's the same existential angst, the same intuition that there is a lasting sense of fulfillment.
But I don't experience it right now, so it must be somewhere else. And the whole body is conditioned to look, the whole machine is conditioned to look outside itself. Because if it's missing here, then maybe it is there or there. Maybe it is if I get another university degree or maybe if I get... Win a lottery or whatever, elsewhere. But again, another pointer that Bob was stressing,bringing up from the Bible, the kingdom is already here. And that here is right now. And he would ask anyone unaware right now. Anyone can deny the presence of this here. Anyone can deny the fact that you are right here.
It's just the concepts that we put on it. But no, no, this is not quite right. But hey, my existential angst is still there. Well, really? What is it? What is that arising existential angst? It is a vibration of energy arising here. So this is a phenomena, this is an adornment in space. Sense of luck. I'm incomplete. There must be something more. I'm unenlightened. There must be something that I can grasp, understand, or add to myself in order to feel complete. But you see that that sense of incompleteness is another phenomena arising here in this moment now. If you see it as completely impersonal phenomena arising, just like, you know, if the cat will fart, that will be arising here.
Yeah, they do the silent ones. Yeah, they do the silent ones.The silent are deadly. You're dead right. So it is just the same type of a phenomena, whether it is a cut, a spartan rising in a space, or whether it is a sense of anxiety or sense of existential angst or a sense of, I'm not quite there, I'm incomplete, there must be something more. That it is another vibration, just like the smell is a vibration, the same way that subtle thought, that subtle mental image, I am incomplete as I am right now is no good. That is a mental image. And you can see how that mental image isn't there in the same intensity all the time.
Sometimes it is not present. Sometimes the mental image is different. I'm okay. Well, I can even think of a couple of things I'm grateful for. And other points, that mental image is so intense that you need to go and have a drink.This phenomena arising. Is another pattern or packet of energy, a vibration, a phenomena. It arises in that which witnesses it, which cognizes it or registers it. And that field of here, that presence, Whatever arises, whether it is a smell or whether it is a subtle feeling, or whether it is a thought or whether it is mental image, that field registering whatever arises is unaffected.
It unconditionally allows that field and anything and everything that's in it, just like space allows every cloud. There is nothing wrong with anything that arises.if your heart is with the reality. Because what often happens, and that's where the psychological suffering seeps in, all of the attention, all of that life force goes into the phenomena. And it makes it real. Just the same way, any belief. Can be experienced as reality. If I believe that aliens are going to come and swallow me or vaccine is going to save me or kill me, any sense of belief, if the whole life force, whole of attention is flooding it, it is giving it reality, that life force, that attention.
Is the power that manifests the sense. It doesn't manifest real. I mean, you know, if you look at the different cultures, it may. If it's a collective belief, like aboriginals pointing bone, if the whole gathering points bone at someone, and there is a collective reality agreed upon that this person is going to die, well, apparently, it has almost certain 100% that it will happen. But in the case of that big mishmash of the information, I may make myself believe to be absolutely unworthy of leaving and commit suicide. But it's much, much harder to make myself believe that I'm a millionaire philanthropist and start.throwing away the money that I believe I have, but I don't.
So those things are a little fragile and those are completely unrelated because those are phenomena, not important. The important thing is to go back to that source and see how the belief is traveling into the phenomena, how the belief is constituting the separate self or is constituting sense of luck or is constituting a sense of conspiracy and through that act of
believing through that act of affirming this is the truth it is experienced as if it was the truth and now it is experienced as if i'm really unlovable i really need to go and get drunk or or kill myself that is how real it feels when all of that life force, all of that attention goes and embodies the phenomena, the thought arising.
That's why non-duality is bringing back, is inviting to resonate with the basic truth, bringing back, bringing back, bringing back to the foreground. The basic realization, the basic truth that whatever is happening is just phenomena, adornment arising in the space of untouchable, invulnerable here. Whatever the thought, whatever the belief, It is just a phenomena arising here. If I'm grounded in that, if I am realizing myself as that, I am the cognizing emptiness. I am the space for the phenomena. I'm not the dream character. I'm not the feeling of luck. I'm not the feeling of believing in a conspiracy of any sort. I am the space in which thoseactivities are arising to pass away.
Now, the amount of attention that is released from the belief and is grounded as that cognizing emptiness, that's the freedom. And it seems to be the moment it is cognized or recognized and everybody knows that they are and everybody throughout the day have moments when they don't hold on to any sense of identity as something or the other.And from that place, realizing that whatever arises is just completely impersonal phenomena. Initially, the habit of recreating the identity, the habit of recreating persistent problems, the 90% of thoughts that I had yesterday will keep coming up. Initially, it seems to be an active process of recognizing moment to moment.
Like Bob would say, you know, I walked out from Misargadatta and I knew I will never be caught up in the mind again. As soon as I passed the door, I was back in it. But this time, it was easy enough to check again. Hey, is there anybody there thinking the thoughts? A moment ago I saw there was no one there. It was just a spontaneous arising, just like a smell of a cat. Just the thought, the idea, the mental image arising just as everything else arising. And then, yeah, that's right. Okay. And then the mind habitually engages again. And wait a minute. Yep. Dropping, dropping, moment to moment, recognizing.And it may be never-ending moment-to-moment recognizing.
Or it may be. Just the groundedness in the present moment and letting those phenomena arise and move on without even paying attention, without even needing to engage and drop away. They're all descriptions. The only valid description is the one that comes from you. Because none of the description is ever to describe. So that's the time to invite you to bring your own descriptions. And that applies to, we have seven people with us on Zoom, that applies to you guys as well. Any description, recognition of the natural state is... Probably the easiest way rather than asking questions about how do I manifest my million dollars perfect partner or do is there a reincarnation or not seeing from the direct experience the realizing that you are already present and aware and expressing that reinforcing that, feeding that with life essence, with attention, rather than feeding the obstructions.
Though if the obstructions are persistent, we can dismantle them as well. So who's going to start us off?Oh, yeah. Just to leverage a little bit on the investor and spontaneous provision. Oh, yeah. Great point. Thank you, Charlie. Yes, so... Even mental investiture is spontaneous because ultimately everything is spontaneous. But if you see that intense investment in the cognitive function, yes, it is also a part of conditioning. Like, you know, you have people who are scientists they constantly they they machine strain to solve problems and it's nothing wrong with that the investment in you know like book writing fantasy or making films or any sort of investiture is part of expression that one life experiencing and expressing itself.
The problem starts when it becomes self-obsession, when it becomes investiture in me, me, myself and mine. Yes. And spontaneous cognition. Based on a different modus operandi.Yeah, so did you want to say something about it or you want me to speak about it? Well, from the point of view of universal I, cognition of reality is totally spontaneous and one is aware of that. Whereas when you invest mentally, let's say, in a conspiracy theory, then that is a construct of the false eye. Or the mate. Exactly. So I just wanted to draw that distinction because the operation is completely, the modus operandi for the being is completely different.
Yeah, beautiful. The question is really, you're right, but how do you know about the construct or the cognition? Of the construct, the buying into the construct. How do you know? Well, that depends on your level of awareness. How do you know? It doesn't depend on anything.Presence awareness just is. Can't switch it off. If you're aware of that, that's fine. You don't need to be aware of it. You are aware. You are aware. That's it. You don't need to switch it on. You can't turn it off. It's attuning yourself to it. That's what I'm talking about. And how do you know you need to attune? See all of this?
The questioning, the concepts, the blah, blah, blah. It's just you're... You're aware that it's going on. It's aware. Okay. That's simple.But, you know, the thoughts come up about, but, but, but, but, explain this to me. Tell me about that. What about this? What about that? Can you see that's all happening? And there's a registering of it. You're registering it. can't not register it. You can't not hear what's going on. You can't, you don't have a plan for what your eyes are going to see today, what's going to come out of the mouth. Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah. And you just, well, can you not be? Gosh, it's that simple.
It's really that simple. And I know people will say, oh, but I don't see it. I don't see it. How can you be so arrogant as to say it's that simple? What do you want? A beautiful lie? Is that what you want? Most people do. That's what you want, a beautiful lie? That you have to work towards doing this, put effort in, try it, something you must reach for and attain to? Been there, done that. Well, that's all. That's sure. Absolutely. But you never go home because you never left. You've always been home. James said, I was wishing and trying to get somewhere she's never not been.
Like a dog chasing its tail, isn't it? You can't get what you already are.That's the total point of it. Realise that the absolute truth is that you are that. Start there. You are that. Right now. Right now. And yet it was, it was still, it is still a distinction between well-being and psychological suffering. What you said. Yeah, it's, yes, you either, yeah, you either realize there is just a naturalness, spontaneity of being, including the thoughts arising in it, or the whole attention is hijacked by the self-centered, and that's the psychological suffering. Yeah, and that's why, you know, what we bring up here is the invitation to, first of all, resonate with the pointers, because everyone deep down in their heart knows that there is nothing wrong unless there is thinking going on.
And everyone had moments of realization that, you know, all the moments, even in a shift of perception, that suddenly you were completely crushed by suffering and it lifted, even if just for a moment. So deep down in the heart, the resonation.is natural. So we bring it up and invite to just give it more attention, just pour that life essence into the truth of it, rather than solidifying that psychological suffering based in assuming yourself to be little, to be small, to be identified as body-mind, to be in a conceptual cage of separation, isolation, limitation. But yes, that's the basic loss of the freedom when all of the attention embodies or, you know, it's almost like acting as if.
That life essence as if it was something small, isolated, separated and limited. It's so beautifully done. The acting is so perfect, you believe it. Deep down you know it's just phenomena, exactly what you said. But you, you know, bow down. To that beautiful buying into it so totally, so 100% that you can die from the fear of it. I think Ben has the mic. I was just given the mic. But I... There you go. Oh, you're there. No, I did have, like, a few things were popping up, but they don't.seem that important anymore so I won't yeah no they've just they've I think Tanya sort of just booted them out of my head so yeah I feel quite relaxed and happy just to listen so if anyone wants the mics She did, yes.
I feel like just going to sleep now, so I'm very content. Who's going to contribute then? Well, I've just contributed. I've seen the issue there. Wait, wait, wait. Yeah, go on. Well, just to challenge, just, well, just, he just said he did have some issues and questions, but what, it seemed to me that there was a bit of a, a prohibition about asking questions or saying something by what you had just said. So I was just asking him and he did say, well, I've got no questions now. So I'm just making a point. I've got nothing else. Oh, yeah. So the question is, I'll reiterate, was there no more question because it has been answered in what Tanya just said or because you felt shy to ask?
No, like things were sort of going on busy and then it's like, yeah, that's it. Okay. So it was nice. You're not embarrassed to ask. No, no. Or felt shut down. But if that is the case,case, if there is a thought that comes, oh, I feel as if what's being said here, isolates me, makes me feel stupid. Makes me believe that my concerns have no meaning or no weight. See that thought and see right through it. See right through it. That's the bullshit. That's the bullshit. That's the bullshit that says they're all against me. They don't understand or, you know, that encourages that closeness. I'm going, fuck it.
Fuck it. Be fearless. I think the important thing is that we're all pointing, we're trying to point to free ourselves from an identification with a me. And so anything that helps that is not meant to repress or shut down or stop people saying anything it's it's to point you back to the place you never left it's yeah the point you're back to okay i'm not i'm not i'm not an image i'm i'm not aI'm not a memory. I'm not a projection. You know, it's very hard to talk about what you're not. But that's what we do. We sit around talking about what we're not. Because, you know, the noumenon is...
You can't label it, you can't really talk about it, and yet we sit around here every Sunday and talk about it. That presence that we are, that pre-sense, that before the naming, you know, and it's important to see that anyone that has a go, they're just trying to point you back to you know, that nameless, timeless, baseless, omniscient, omnipresent presence that you are. And that's, you know, the rest of it's a story really. And, you know, you're not that. Well, you are, but you're not. You're everything or you're nothing. You know, it's all very complicated, really. But if you just say, what's wrong with right now, if you don't think about it, and I'm not the image I have about myself.
And when you feel any of those feelings of feeling less than or inadequate or any of that, those labels that you've been living with all your life, you go, well, who's it happening to? It has to be happening to a me.Where is that me? Find it. I've never found it. I used to identify with it until I came here. And then I read I Am That and I realised there was no me. And yet I got caught up in old stories and old patterns and, you know, and so I knew that was the truth. From the minute I read that book, from the minute I spoke to Bob, I knew what he was telling me was true.
And like Kat so rightly said before, we all know that. We all know we're upset, we're angry, we're hurt, we're this. And then, oh, do you want a cup of tea? It's like all of a sudden everything's fine again, you know. Everything's always fine. It's just the surface stuff appears to take us away from that presence that we are. But we are always that presence with other shit appearing on the top. We know it, Jane. We know it. We know it. We know it, Jane, but in ordinary life without this knowledge, we sort of can't get to it because we're stuck on that level. Some people.
The level of the mind. Yeah, yeah, well, that's right. And that's why we come to rooms like this. That's why we come to rooms like this, so that we can untangle the pattern, if you like. That blocks us from, you know, it's just a pattern. It's just a pattern.you know, watching the show from being in this conversation for quite a while now. And it does occur as though that there is a difference between being in a creative space and being in the space of reaction. And the reaction is where the struggle is, right? So in the repeatedness of taking action around doing the investigation, kind of like what Jane was just talking, she's talking about being in a reactive space, then suddenly something happening, you're doing the investigation, whatever it may be, and then suddenly you're in the creative space where it's, oh, would you like a cup of tea?
So it is a, for me, it is a very big difference between being in the space of infinite possibility, which is a beautiful space to be in. And even though it all is occurring, there is a harmony that happens in the space of creativity and awareness.of the fact that you're creating rather than being in this space of reacting to something and the reaction, I even see how we want it to be a certain way. And it's like a flicker of an instant. It's amazing where we can do some type of investigation. And then you start thinking that then it kind of, you fall into a space of possibility.
And I think that for me, I've been looking at that for a while.It is the experience of looking at it from one's awareness and seeing what resonates in the show. But by no means am I any. I fail all the time. And I'll keep at it. But you are not that I that fails. Yeah, I know. I know. I know. I know. But it's just an expression of being in the show. And I think the more you do the investigation, the better it gets. And, you know, that can be talking to someone else on the same wavelength who's into non-duality, which I did for years to poor Bob, ringing him, you know, getting stuck in a conflict or getting stuck in a conflict within myself, getting stuck in a reaction, you know.
And then all of a sudden, you know, I didn't have to do that anymore. I just go, oh, it's an old pattern. Yeah. You know, but for years, I'm not saying everyone has to wait years because as Nisargadatta rightly says, there's the slow ripening fruit and there's the fruit that just drops straight away. So everybody's different. Everybody's different, you know. Took me a long time. I'm a slow learner. But, you know, but eventually you just go, wow.You know, you're just in and out of stuff like bang, bang, bang. Whereas, you know, it used to take a while to figure out or you used to have to talk to someone else or you used to have to read a book or you used to have to actually sit and go, who's it happening to?
Me, you know, or you had to find your favourite pointer. to, you know, pass the pattern. Well, now it just comes up, it goes, it comes up, it goes, it comes up, it goes, you know. And it's like being in that, like you say, that creative space is that spontaneous eternity that we are. That is, that's why. You know, I totally identify with what you're saying. You know, when you're in that spontaneous space, you're not living in a memory, you're not projecting a memory into the future, you're just living spontaneously in that eternal space. I am-ness, I guess, or the is-ness or whatever label you want.
I think the problem is we get caught up in semantics and we get caught up in labels, you know, and, you know, we just are. But, you know, that's a big, that's a, oh, yeah, people go, oh, you just are. Oh, yeah, that's very easy for you to say. Yeah, well, it is very easy for me to say now that it took years to... Get to that point for me, but it doesn't necessarily have to take a long time because actually, in actual fact, there is no time. Another concept, just like God's a concept, you know, where...We're allegedly concepts until we realise we're not. So, and the truth does eat away the lie, you know, because, you know, we try, we strive, we do the this, the that, all of a sudden you go, wow, that's not coming up anymore.
And you realise what Bob said was true. The truth does eat away the lie. And the lie is the identification with the me and the other person, place or thing, you know, and it's just actually all just what is. Yeah, it was also lovely what you said, you know, the place of complete spaciousness, infinite possibilities, no separation versus the stress, the anxiety. And Bob would say, you know, there is just one. Cause and effect situation when the I, the self-center, is the cause of all my anxiety, all my misery, stress, remorse, guilt, shame, all of that can only exist if there is a self-centered imagined persona there that all those miserable things can be attributed to.
And of course, that's the
stress that's the disease uneasiness and that prolonged stress that that comes really just from identifying as a separate limited individual it does cause the diseases Rather than dropping that self-centered or realizing that it is just a phenomena and straight away it's like a paradigm shift from being this, that or the other, that limit itself to being the consciousness in which all of that universe is arising right now. Recognition it isn't even a shift because there is no one that shifts just recognition that even that limited perspective that very very stressed self-centered suffering of guilt shame remorse stress and whatever that even that is just an arising in that infinite field of consciousness in that so that really and that i always fails because its job is to assert its identity this software this algorithm has the self-preservation instinct just like every other creature in the universe.
So the mental sense of the narrative self that constructs the so-called ego, it also keeps the integrity and itwants to be and it always fails at not being how can that stop being it is the pure consciousness that realizes that this is insentient it cannot it is a bundle of thoughts bundle of thoughts cannot realize anything full stop How can thought realize? Thought is just the vibration, just the sound. It can't, it doesn't have a brain, it doesn't have sentience, it can't realize. But when Jay was actually challenging Ben, I had an idea which I think would be, we could give it a go if you want to play along.
Ben had a question and that question got answered. And it often happened in Bob's groups that Bob would give spiel, sometimes 30 minutes, sometimes 40, 45 minutes. And then he would say, okay, any questions? And there would be a silence. And I had this thing, Tanya and I, we do Zoom twice a week too, apart from Zoom because we have, we still have seven people here, bigger Zoom groups. And sometimes the same thing happened. The introduction answers all the potential questions. But wouldn't it be helpful to actually bring the question, repeat it, and repeat the answer also?I think that would be very helpful. Yeah, because the way, Ben, you had a question and Tanya answered it, it won't be the same way Tanya would say it.
It would be a completely different way, like filtered through your own perception lens and through your own understanding. Would you be willing to actually bring the question and answer just how it was answered when she said? Just an invitation. You can say no, but it would be. Yeah, it's in my past now. I think the thing that often comes up with me is the emotional component of it because I've enjoyed the discussion because the thoughts themselves. I've got a lot of awareness around that at the moment. So the thoughts arise. Sometimes I'm lost in them, but often I'll just, I say, oh, I can just let it go.
But I do get caught, especially with loved ones, especially, or significant things in my life. The emotion has a real charge to it. And I don't know how to... Treat that emotion sometimes. It's painful. And my way is historically to treat emotion is to think about it. I think Tanya sort of, but I think what I realised through the discussion was that I've just got to treat it the same way as, you know, everything else. So it's not, again, it's just part of the game. It's just a wicked part of the game, I guess.Yeah, so I think that's how it's saying pointless to then bring it up.
I suppose it resolves itself. Sorry, it's just... Yeah, there can be, I think there's a couple of things going along here as well that can be just sort of being in the moment. And then there's also like the patterns that are in the system. And I think it's kind of like a parallel or sort of intertwined process that can be going on. So, you know, somebody could be, there could be releases going on without recognition of there being no I, but without that recognition. So, you know, you can go along on the I, but processes can be taking place in the system that are releasing patterns and, you know, reactions and stuff.
And then, you know, some people have... Oh wow there's no eye and in a simultaneous massive release of those patterns i've i know one guy who's had a big chunk of those disappear with that um kind of awakening you know um well this is you know there's no eye and then another one is i know people who are actually sitting pretty blissfully in the now quite often and i've read about it and witnessed it myself And yet there are patterns under the surface. And, you know, one of them even went looking for those patterns and just, you know, trying all sorts of methods and couldn't see them.
But I could see what they were. And then if they arose, those reactions arose. You know, there'd be a...immediate kind of reaction going on like oh no no you know that will just happen you know um in their business cycle or something that that the process something that the system is you know still doing in the world but there's hang-ups in there that were showing up while that person's just very happy to sit in the garden 24 7 um And, you know, even themselves aren't, you know, the system is not showing a recognition that that pattern, how that pattern's there or even really that that particular one is there.
So I think there can be like an overemphasis or it can be perceived as an overemphasis on the eye has to go but there's also the patterns in there too so no thoughts here arise about there being an eye since you know i don't unpack that when i first came to you know went to perth place in here um but there's plenty of reactions going on and so yeah the different setups will do, you know, this different kind of, yeah, it's also called waking up and cleaning up, you know, this different, these processes will take place. So yeah, not to forget, not to just think that the removal of the eye is the largest piece of the pie necessarily.
Here it might get talked about a lot. But, you know, yeah, just to not think that it's trumping everything or being, you know, seen to trump everything.confusing people about the rest of it. Yeah. I think, I think, um, What came up for me was what Bob used to say, that thought, feeling and emotional one. And so what happens is you're kind of freed up from a lot of the crap in your mind. You are that emotion that comes up when you're interacting with others. You know, you're not separate from it. You are that emotion. So, you know, but if a pattern keeps recurring that causes you dis-ease or upsets you, it's good to have a look at what that is and have a look at...
What your reaction is, you know, if you're going to use your mind, you might as well use your mind to have a look at that. And I usually find that it's because the me, the alleged me has been affected in some way and it's from the past. You know, or it's a projection into the future, you know, like someone might say something and it makes me feel inadequate or threatened or less than or, you know, those kind of things. And I have to see that. You know, that all conflict arises between me and the other. It doesn't mean I can do anything about it.It's just good to see your part in it and how that reaction can often create more conflict.
And you become unattracted to that, even though you can't really do anything about it, you can just see it, right? And you become unattracted to that. You become more attracted to letting things go. That's how I see it. Because it takes up too much energy. Takes up so much energy conflict and anger and all that stuff but if it comes up you are that you know but uh you know but then you go oh there it is there's that pattern again yeah and then do you want a cup of tea you know what i mean it becomes it becomes easier to let go of things that aren't useful Because anything that takes you away from that presence that you are, not that you can ever be away from it, but allegedly takes you away from it, is just a dissipation of energy.
It becomes, you're not attracted to it after a while. You just think, oh, you know, it's just that old pattern, you know. I'm not going to go there, you know. Anyway, that's just what came up for me. Okay.Yeah, it's funny we're talking about emotion a lot because I think that's what seems to be what I've, like the point of focus for me recently is like watching emotions come up and it's quite clear there's no me here for them to happen to though. The emotions, you know, I catch myself in stuck in emotions and the, you know, often I'll ask that question, like, well, who, who's feeling this?
And it's amazing watching the, the emotion or what was being labeled as the emotion is still there. And the sensation is still there, though in the moment of investigating the eye, the resistance drops away and there's no longer any resistance to it and just what is, is. And in that process, the suffering disappears. So the emotion is still there. Even the thought can still be there. Though there's no longer this attempt to separate yourself from that or to wish that that thing were not. And it seems that the...it almost seems as though the I could just be boiled down to a single impulse for what is to be different or something like this should not be or something to that effect.
And, and, believing that that is true that this should not be creates the resistance to what is and that is where the suffering is because it's like you're trying to be what isn't and that's impossible and and in that is suffering and just this simple recognizing when these emotions it's almost like now as emotions come up there's just a yes just a yes to whatever that emotion is and in that simple act of of allowing and not holding on to the resistance the suffering is no longer there the sensation is there and the energy is there those patterns are there but there's almost a love for these this energy and these patterns and there's not a not a resistance and not a suffering and it does seem it appears to be that as that kind of love for these patterns appears the frequency with which they rise or the intensities with which they rise or the frequency with which i resist them appears to be reducing.
So it's almost like there's this, it's almost just a practice ofbeing with what is as it is. And then that, that in and of itself, you know, dissolves or transforms this tendency to resist. Um, and it's kind of a, a very interesting thing to, to what's happened. Um, yeah. And it's like, you don't have to, You don't have to chase these things. Like, it will happen when it happens. And it's, you know, I still get, I still take some, occasionally take some time to remember, like, oh, like, but the suffering in itself is almost an alarm bell. To tell you to investigate. It's like this beautiful inbuilt, just self-destruct mechanism where it's like, ding, ding, ding, you're suffering, why?
And then all it takes is to just investigate or to say yes. Yes, that's... I go through that same thing and it's very helpful, full of resistance and that's a good, very helpful. But what I'm interested in, and I accept that these things just arise, thoughts and emotions just arise, and I believe and I agree that there'sa relationship between But I'd like your comment on, there seems to be a, a coincidence between those thoughts and emotions that arise, that they, you know, I attract particular kinds of things that emerge, that they're not random. Because when you talk about them, you say, oh, well, they're just arising.
And I say, oh, well, yes, these thoughts and emotions are just arising. They're not me. But in this person's, you know, experience, there is a particular pattern or clump. Absolutely. Do you understand what I'm saying? You know, that I have this particular clump of thoughts that just arise and other people have those. So if I don't exist, can you say some stuff about that? Yeah, I was just thinking of the same thoughts about, yeah, the nature of the different things that arise and the letting go. For example, like you saying, oh, is there an eye here? And then there's like a dissipation of stuff. And then he also said, like, you know, it could be like, is there a desire for different or is there a different sense of difference going on?
So that could even be have no eye in it. But is there?there a difference here is there separation or not and then things disappear so in a way like the the different clumps of stuff you and the nature of whatever the sort of the content of what shows up and and just prior to the looking at the other side where the space that also shows up that space experience It's kind of like Michael was saying, you know, and this is an approach of letting go. You've just got all this stuff going on, then what's it like from the space of emptiness? So it just, yeah, could be the same process is going on, just with different notions and different worded phrases.
And, you know, they could actually be incredibly much the same thing, whether there's an either or not, or maybe there is a distinction, I don't know, in intensity or a distinction of some sort. Whether it's seen as an abstraction of, is there separation here or not, or whether it's like my separation or my sense of I or whatever, you know, sense of a self. Yeah, I don't know. I think for me, not that there isn't me, but anyway, the patterns that come up, like you say, are... familiar, you know, and I think identifying something that triggers you is a good idea because, you know, we're given a mind to use.
So, and so that's what I was saying before was, you know, if weidentify a pattern that comes up, even though we can't actually change it because there's no me to change it, we can identify it. And so then when it comes up again, we go, there it is, that particular pattern. And yes, it is a clump of things that usually trigger the me. That causes the thought, feeling and emotion. So that me, which can only arise from a memory, even though we can't see that at the time when we're reacting, or a projection, that comes up. But it's usually familiar when you go, who's it happening to?
What conflict is this, you know, it is usually something that recurs. And it's like the grooves in a record that, you know, the grooves in a record, you know, and all of a sudden, by the investigation of who's this happening to, and like Lockie said, takes a while for the body to calm down once you've seen who's it happening to takes a while because the body you know feel feels things you know but I think what happens is the more you investigate the pattern and let it go knowing that There is no you to change it because, you know, there's only one.Just the actual fact of seeing it, knowing it, letting it go, it dissipates.
So Jane, because I know Tanya had told me about Bob saying like, and I forgot what it was. Is it the out breath where you let everything go? So what has been your specific process in the action of letting something go? Just recognizing it. Just recognizing it and watching it. Do you take a deep breath? Do you take a deep breath? Because as you're saying, it's like there's an experience, an emotional experience that we have that has a residual effect, right? Like if it's a big time emotional experience, then it seems to take a while for it to... Dissipate so even in this is so so what has been your experience relative to that like i said in the space of letting it go yeah i think like i said at the beginning my journey started in a 12-step program yeah and it you know even though it's really old-fashioned language written in 1935 It was talking about a self-centre and talking about instincts and, you know, all the machinations of the self and all that kind of thing.
And then Bob said, there is no self. But up until that point, I'd already had a look at a lot of those patterns and they were all.you know, me and the other. So it was me and my inadequacies, my fears, my resentments, my self-pity, all those things that had to be related to a me, right? And so, and or they were projections, you know, or nobody loves me. I think I'll eat some worms, you know, whatever. You know what I mean? It was all about the self. And then Bob said, there isn't one. And so I thought, well, you know, how can I work with this?
So, you know, that chapter on awareness of Krishnamurti that Bob loved. Which said, you know, all conflict arises between me and the other person, place or thing. So basically, when I was in conflict, I had to be in a memory. I had to be, you know, even though I couldn't see it, even though I couldn't see the memory sometimes. Why am I angry? I'm angry because this me has been affected. Where is this me that's been affected? Can't find it. And so then what is this pattern? You know, this. And so I'd have a look and I go, all right. So I had to go, I can't do this.
You can have it. You know, there's an old saying, I can't, you can, I think I'll let you. And basically, that's what I used to use. It was like, you know, this is all crap. You know, it's old shit. And it has to be.So having recognized that, I'm just back in what is, you know. Yeah, so, so. Thank you for sharing that. That there's the experience of an emotional tension in the body. You're seeing it. Take a breath. So what did it look like? Lucky, sitting right next to you, gave a really good description of how Bob described him letting thoughts go with the outburst.
Would you like to dive in, Lucky? What's our recall you doing? I can't remember what it is. Yeah.I don't know what I said. Just thought, go out. Oh, like when an emotion arises. Yeah, I mean, when an emotion arises here, normally it's the, first off, it's recognising that there's suffering is the first point. And then in that recognition, it's, I mean, there's multiple ways to go about it. There's the very easy, like, who is the one that is experiencing this suffering? For me, what's been super useful lately is, can I allow this emotion to be here without any resistance? And taking that point of inquiry has been extremely useful.
In terms of actually like a physical like out breath or anything, I'm probably not practicing something like that. I'm not sure if that's useful. Inspiration. Yeah. Thought comes in, hangs around, let it ride out with the out breath. Sometimes i'm gonna be you describing that really well it's not a it's not a practice but you can see it's a good little way to help you when that you know ocean of emotion comes waving over the top that can be a useful way of seeing it and as james there's nothing you can do about it but just the seeing is the magic. And sometimes the emotion is like the strength of the emotion is too great.
And even though I might recognizelike I'm feeling like emotion that it's almost like the momentum is too strong for disidentification in that moment. And it seems that practicing on the, the smaller, less sticky ones builds that ability to, to drop the identification. So then when the larger ones come, but when you have, when you're stuck in the depths of like some kind of emotion, it's almost too late at that point. It's like you're going to be in suffering until this wave passes. It's like the ocean. Yeah. It's like the surface of the ocean, the storm, the energized wave, the enormous wave full of powerful energy, you know, emotion, wave of emotion, water going everywhere, splashing waves, buffeting everything around.
Deep, when you dive deep, deep, deep, deep, it's quiet. Still. That's a good description, a great description of what it feels like when you... And you recognise that all that stuff that's happening is on the surface. Yes. The ocean, the waves, and you see it up and then you don't mind. And that's... It doesn't... Well, you can watch it. It's a beautiful description of what it feels like too because it feels like you're under a wave and there's like this... Tingly bubble surface going on at the top that you're not being washed you're not being tumbled around by it's just happening hanging in that quiet depth dive deep so you can dive deep sometimes sometimes what happens to me is i can some an emotion comes up I would say now, now.
And I feel like responding to something, you know, this is not you. You're not this emotion. Don't get involved. Be impartial. Don't resist. Don't act. Not you're not you're not this you're not this person and then i say it or do it anyway yeah and so i can remember yeah yeah i i think well it's good it's good to watch that whole process say that's right because is when you don't have mental involvement in the emotion, then it evaporates like Ben was talking about.before that's what I found. I think there's... You take the label off, it's not even... Yeah, people have got different keys. I think for years we've been repressing our emotions because we were so worried about what people thought.
And all of a sudden we come here and there's no me and it doesn't matter. And, you know, and then we get a bit sort of tangled up somewhere. But I think, you know, it's important to express how you feel. And too bad if that's not acceptable. That's how I feel. If you've got something to say, say it, you know. And eventually you don't really need to say it. That's the best way I can put it. There are a lot of things you can do. I personally love breath myself, to go back to Anthony. I think sometimes if I feel, you know, I've overdone everything in a day and I'm like a little bit stressed and tense, I just think sitting and breathing, watching the breath is a really wonderful thing to do.
And, you know, you're breathing in sort of peace and harmony, breathing out stress and anxiety, you know, if you want to label it. But what, you know, I don't really even label it now. I just sit there and breathe, you know. And sometimes I'll slip into it.a different thing. So I'm sort of not quite asleep, but not quite awake. And then I just sort of feel like I've been plugged into a charger and I get up and do a whole bunch of other things, you know, and it's just an attention to what is. Really being attentive to what is if the body feels stressed and tense and sort of overworked or you know you just sit breathe or if you've had a conflict with someone or you know i think breathing is a great thing you know because you just think wow you know i've got this on life itself and it's i've got this incredible life force here and i've got to nurture it and love it and be warm towards it give it a wink and a nudge that's what bob used to say say no more yeah that's it question because I don't really get the overwhelm of you know the ocean emotion the ocean but at a lower level I did something I think Bob mentioned I did it at one of the latest songs or something but it was just the deep dive take it to the max and then dissipate it but I wonder is that possible for people who get super you know get in this massive wave top I mean, because I don't experience it.
Because they're all with the ocean. But, yeah, but has anyone, when it's that overwhelming,I mean, is it something that arises as possible for people to take it to the max? And then was it too much? Maybe not. Who knows until you get there? I don't know. Does anyone have the experience of being able to do that? Or does it feel like too much? I'm just curious. Because, yeah, about that part of life. That's right. You don't know until you get there. Yeah, I know, but I just want to know if it's an experience. Yes, there is. Lockie was saying that just before, saying, you know, I'd like to practice on the small waves.
I think driving right to take it to the max. No, no, it doesn't feel like too much. I don't know. It's been a rise at the time. There is a mechanism that is often used in the psyche. And I know a lot of people who use that mechanism and I can actually see it working myself also. When the flooding of emotion happens, the system shuts down for self-regulation automatically. There's no one doing anything. That's the thing. Sometimes, you know, I watch a movie and it's like suspense in the movie. And the vibration gets so strong. I have this hypersensitivity. I had it as a child.
Apparently, I was absolute nightmare. Maybe I still am an absolute nightmare. Anyway, the hypersensitivity, which makes me sensitive to the crowd of people or smells or things or lights and stuff. And it literally caused the system shutdown. It closes the eyes.isolates itself and it processes the it is an instinctual behavior and for different machines that point will come at a different place depends on the again on the conditioning Some people will have, you know, will develop mechanisms that will, you know, like channel it into an activity or others will channel it into a fantasy. And yet other body minds machine will have yet different survival strategies.
I know about, you know, some needing to punch the pillow or stuff like that. So this is again viewing the whole machine with that attitude of curiosity. This is really good. I like that you asked this question. I wonder if other machines have other or allow themselves to get that much. This is the curiosity. My machine doesn't do it, but maybe yours does it. Ooh, that's fascinating. And then you see how the body-mind machine copes. And this is what Jane was also asking there. You know, why are the thoughts always private and relevant to what's happening in the environment? Why I don't have the same thoughts as you do or Loki or anyone else?
Well, because there is no separation. Because that machine copes with that environment and it automatically throws the thoughts that are relevant for its own survival. That's why the thoughts are arising. And for me, it will be persistent thoughts associated with that. And for you with that and for someone else with something else. And then again, having that.Broad curiosity is really good because it kind of shows you the mechanical structure of every mind. But then zooming in on your own strategies without any sense of guilt or judgment or comparison, just plain open curiosity. How is this machine doing it? Oh, it is doing it this way.
Oh, I'll speed it out. It may be helpful for similar conditioning or it may not. But it's actually really good to even bring yourself to the point in which you are looking at this with that curious detached. Investigative sort of curiosity because that is already watching and describing the phenomena from the space-like awareness from the cognizing emptiness right so it's not random random thoughts coming from pure awareness from everywhere it's it's it's via the body machine absolutely it's only it will be it will be somewhat targeted and and focused on this this kind of unique pattern of energy you're a unique pattern of energy that's very cool yeah yeah And then actually being curious and watching the thoughts as they arise, how they arise, which thoughts, I think someone mentioned here, which thoughts trigger, which are benign.
And bringing up, and again, Lucky highlighted, and thank you for that.You know, the moment discomfort arises, the moment any sense of discontentment arises, that is a red flag. That is the flashing light separation. I'm identifying as something less than the whole field because the space, the whole field doesn't object to anything. Even if the body is in a state of discomfort and is screaming in pain, there is that depth of the ocean, that stillness, which says, aha. That's that. You can see it in animals. Sometimes they scream because it helps release some sort of chemicals, I don't know. And sometimes they're just sitting quiet. There always is the possibility to detach from the mental chatter and see from that field of space-like awareness that that which arises is arising to pass, is impermanent, and is none of my business.
I'm just presence witnessing that which arises. The if if the arising comes with like whatever is arising it comes with the judgment already attached to it it arises the idea arises oh it's cold and rainy oh i don't like cold and rainy oh i would prefer if it wasn't cold and rainy oh i always feel bad on my knees ache or whatever is the story coming up all of it stepping back including anything that arises, stepping back to that position of that space-like awareness, witnessing whatevercomes up on the screen with the curiosity like wow this moment is unique you are the unique pattern but this arising is also unique it will never arise in the same way it is the only time right now to fully see it for what it is And sometimes there will be different degrees of mental activity.
And again, it also depends on the machine. Sometimes the availability of that cognizing, curious, empty, space-like recognition isn't immediately available. That's not a reason to beat yourself up. And say, I failed, what's wrong with me, I'll never get it, because that's another arising. But that's just what is happening in this unique present moment now. Sometimes there is fight-flight response, and the most immediate action is just running, even if that's unreasonable. Reasoning is unavailable. And again, that's the unique present moment now. There is never anything wrong. In that space unconditionally allows everything to arise and if you look from this perspective of space you know like throwing those 10 000 things around and the 10 000 ways of experiencing and expressing of course and constantly changing like the kaleidoscope every feeling every person every life circumstances constantly playing dancingchanging wow wow why why touch anything why change anything why fix anything even if the impulse of changing and fixing even if you know like tony was saying cleaning up absolutely absolutely if you realize there's no you doing it It doesn't change the fact that you may find yourself walking towards the trauma therapy or towards the self-help group.
There is nothing excluded, including the cleaning up or sorting out or perfecting the personality or learning new responses, healthier responses, CBT or whatever. If there is first things first recognition that there is no one there is just life moving through the body attracting the body to learning this skill or playing with this therapy or this modality and just exploring some for some people there will be an exploration of the of the world of astronomics or all the world of conspiracy theories but if there is just the natural recognition that this is how life is killing time is experiencing and expressing itself Oh yes, writing a novel, science fiction, making a movie.
Yeah, there is nothing wrong. The only suffering comes.from believing a thought that things should could or would be different if the things are as they are are unique and ever fresh and ever new and there is nothing wrong unless there is a thought being believed that things should could or would be different if Because it always relates to the center, to the me. And there isn't one. Seeing from that clarity of open field of curious, wowness that is like i loved again when when uh lucky when you were describing you know there is suffering there is a pain and then slowly slowly that pain and that suffering becomes benign almost to the point like oh that's actually What interesting.
Oh, that's wow. That's fascinating. Something that was incredibly uncomfortable because there was a resistance. There was the sense of separate self resisting and not wanting it, wanting something different. And there was a charge to that emotion. Suddenly noticing it from that space like awareness the charge goes away replaced by that empty presence witnessing and then even going into that subtlejoy when the suffering we tanya and i we often laugh about it you know when the discomfort becomes pleasant because you see and you can't help but appreciate the amount of freedom so you actually enjoy the discomfort because It's just, it can't touch me. It can't touch what I am.
And I see Dina's waiting to bang that gong. And thank you for that. Thank you.Thanks, everyone. That was great. Bye. See you, Kat.