This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
So. And we have here, Nanya. Anthony. Michael. And.We are. Yes, Mike. And welcome, welcome again on another Sunday explorations of no time, no space.Anyone would like to give us a start? Just a quick one, a few minutes, a few pointers. Yes? Cliffy? Not today. Okay. No worries. We know. No, no. Not today. Okay. So. Honor is on mine. All mine. We were exploring on our last Zoom groups. The idea that was requested. Oh, there's one more person coming on Zoom.Yep. And it didn't work. Oh, yeah, it did. Okay, so welcome, welcome, Zoomers. And if any of you would like to give us a spiel, a little few pointers put together, you are most welcome as well.
Anyone who wants to give us a start. Wants to hear it going through yourself because you know the basic predicament is that it is an open secret it isn't a secret it is a most obvious thing in the world and it's not even a thing it's just the obviousness of the pure existence that we are pointing to the non-dual one essence boundless timeless spaceless bodiless mindless birthless deathless right here, right now, without any concept, without any concepts, any ideas put on it to limit it, to somehow confine it. You can see that in your direct experience of existence, it just is. It just is as it is, unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected.
That is-ness doesn't have any time, space, boundaries, anything at all. You can put any concept, you can't. The concepts are arising. But when the concepts are believed, then that pure existence suddenlybecomes my existence and it is an existence of a body that is male or female and a certain age and certain nation and certain history but without those ideas without those concepts it is just isness that undeniable fact of existence It's just right here, right now. I'm present. I'm aware of that presence. That presence is self-shining. I don't produce it or induce it. I don't do anything for it. I just acknowledge. Its existence i just can't deny the fact of of its existence and it's not even it's calling it it is already too far away too many words because it isn't it it is here it is i am it is that existence isn't something outside or apart It is my experience of existence.
It is my experience of being conscious, of being aware. And it is so pre-sensory that it can't be noticed in the regular way. As any sensory expression or perception or concept. It doesn't have any qualities. It isn't big or small, warm or hot, or big or tight or loose. Nothing canbe said about it, but try and stop being. And you see that you can't. But what is that being? What is that awareness? You can't say. But can you not be? Can you not experience it? So it is there underlying all experiences. That pure potentiality, that pure existence, before it becomes my existence, before it becomes an existence of a person or becomes a thought or feeling or a worldview or perception or sound.
It is, it just is, and nothing can be said about it. So it is known directly, bypassing the mind, bypassing the translating services, the instrument that conceptualizes it. So it is, it is, and it isn't.It is just is-ness, that is-ness or that existence or that being-ness translated through the mind becomes seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. It is also presently experienced. You can't see the past, you can only imagine it. You can't see, experience seeing in the future. Again, you can only imagine it. You can't hear the sounds, you can only remember them. But the seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling in this direct experience is the closest way of that potentiality to be translated to actuality.
All the sensory experiences, bodily experiences, taste, touch, smell, balance are experienced immediately in this immediacy. There is one other sense that creates time and creates imagination, creates thinking, which is also experienced immediately. But it has this incredible capacity to take you for the ride, to grasp, capture that field of attention and take it for granted. That imaginary world which is not happening presently, which can't be sensed, can't be touched. If I think about my childhood trauma, I can't touch the abuser. If I think about losing a job or getting old or beingbeing on my deathbed, I can't smell the deathbed. It is only happening in the imagination.
It isn't happening presently. So it is really, the non-duality is pointing to that very, very subtle, It's not even a difference, but for the sake of a pointing, we could talk about the differentiation between the immediate experience that is happening in this immediacy and the overlay of the imagination covering it up, creating time, identity. And resistance necessarily because if there is an identity and in the immediacy i just am i don't know what i am i just am i am here that's all i can say but in the interpretation in the layer of the interpretation i have a story to tell. I have an age, I have shape, I have form.
This is all happening in the sphere of thinking, imagining. In the direct experience, I have no face, I have no legs, I have no liver, I have no heart, I have no brain. I can't experience them directly. There is just the buzzing life. But in the story, I have all those organs. I have past, I have future, I have name. I have place in the world.I have place in the family. So distinguishing what is experienced directly and what is experienced through the translating services that create the map of reality out of memories, scrap of images. Sometimes the memories are so-called false memories. Sometimes those memories are just like, you know, you pour some water on the motherboard and quick, the hardware is damaged and it produces the damaged perception.
And we can see for, you know, the statistics of mental illness, all that coming from the perpetual stress experienced through overstimulation and all that stuff. That's the conditions that exist only when you think about it. Exist only in the world of thinking, objectifying, creating maps. And this is an absolutely magnificent world. It's absolutely beautiful. It's fascinating. It's entertaining. It's exciting. And because it is so colorful and so multidimensional and so immersive, the exchanging unborn Buddha mind for the thought is practically formajority of people the daily bread that's what happens people interact with each other they are interacting from the reference point that is dictated by the environment they are exchanging stories People interact with the entertainment system, with their jobs.
Everything is based in that dream character that is attending to its life. And what's wrong with that? Nothing. That's just the way life experiences and expresses itself as that character. It is quite amazing. But that one goes with the psychological suffering that comes from the heaviness of the reference point taken to be something substantial and real and serious. The reference point arises when it's necessary for attending to things, for navigating the world, for functioning. And it's light and it's constantly changing. And it's nothing wrong with that. When you look at the wildlife, you know, the reference point of running and protecting themselves or mating or whatever the role is required by the environment is spontaneously happening.
But with humans, the brilliant capacity to memorize andmental images and create large language large languages models which enable us to remember to store the past experiences and predict the future experiences create the pathways, neural pathways of habitual behaviors, which is absolutely fascinating capacity. But again, it solidifies the self-centered identity. We have identity. The identity is all threatened. The identity has to, the whole system programs, reprograms itself to preserve that sense of identity. And that identity resists that which doesn't support it and craves that which is a promise of pleasure. Spiritual seeking is one of those promises of pleasure. Seeking for the recognition, for career, for promotion, for money, for partners, all of it can become that element of identity.
Seeking for power, seeking for control. I will manifest my ideal world. I'll control the environment and I will create like God. All those cravings for future to be different, for this moment to be improved. Are natural capacities thatincredible navigational system in the head has that keeps the all species gives them capacity to adapt to changing environment and it's a wonderful wonderful capacity though when it gets out of when it gets dysregulated when it gets too much credibility, too much of that life force, too much attention, it becomes solidified, it becomes rigid, and that rigidity causes suffering. The main causes of suffering in the way that Bob has presented it to us, he says the me, only the me can be depressed, remorseful, full of self-pity, anxious.
Only the me. What is that me? The reference point, the identity. And looking at what is that me, what do you think you are? Who or what do you think you are? Moment to moment, because that can be changing. One moment you can be a mother, another moment you can be a non-duality follower, yet another moment you can be a skeptic or doubter or protector or whatever, the roles that you play, but there will be a core identity. For some people, it will be the identity with thewith the predominant role they're playing. Like, you know, I heard people identifying themselves with their star sign. Oh, I am a Virgo.
This is who I am. Because I do this, that, and the other. Then I know who I am. Well, if that's what you believe. Question that. Look into that. I know people who identify themselves with their dream job. I am the performer. I am the musician. I am the jazz singer. I am an actor. And this is my identity. This is who I am. Or the really persistent role of being a caretaker, being a mom. I think I mentioned before that I know people who had pretty good clarity around the mechanics of the mind, how the mind creates the illusion of control to preserve its own functions.
And the lady that was seeing all that resonating having long periods of completely no mind she would still get sucked back in with the fear unquestioned assumption that if she allows that heartfelt instinctual love of being to be her primary mode of functioning, then she will neglect her children. It's completely not what the nature is showing us.But those persistent identities have those concepts attached to them. When I came to see Bob one-on-one, I faced my own persistent identity as being a core of vulnerability. The fear, fear of rejection, fear of being misunderstood or mistreated or misperceived or humiliated. This was more of the identity that I felt.
This was more of a core of what I was than what I was mostly perceived by other people as. You know, the people were bragging about my achievements of breaking through this fixed system and getting into a nautical school, becoming ship's officer, being a woman. That was they believed who I was. That was a set of characteristics that stood out for them. They could never believe that I was socially awkward and shy because they knew me for 30, 40 years. They haven't seen it. I'm not like that with close friends when there is a sense of comfort and a lack of those fears. So identity that...
My mother perceived me as it was yet different. She would see different things. She would have different concepts. My ex-husband.would have different concept and I had different concept neither of those concepts was right so when Bob invites people to look and question and examine what is the source of psychological suffering and find that me and see what you think it is. What is your concept about yourself? What is that persist identity that you think you are? For a long time, also, really, really persistent part of that vulnerable self that I believed I was, was the shyness. I couldn't speak in public. I couldn't look people straight in the eyes.
I had crossed the eyes also. That was another one.And identity of the seeker. And I've seen even people perceiving me as such, you know, I am the seeker. You always look for something more. Well, who doesn't? But you look into philosophies. Well, I don't know about that. The identities, the concepts, the conceptual images that people have about you, take a couple, take three, four, five. Look at yourself through your neighbor's eyes. What do they see? Or your teachers from a school, what do they see? Or your spouses, what do they see? And what do you see for yourself? What do you think you are?and see if there is anything steady and stable about that image.
When I had my individual meeting one and only with Bob, when I was still a seeker, and I saw that identity, that persistent identity of that shy, vulnerable, fragile self that I believed I was, It was clear and evident that that couldn't possibly be who I am, that bundle of emotions sticking together, that complex ball of sentience sticking together, because it wasn't always the same. I wasn't always the same fragile, shy and vulnerable. But what was there underneath this image, this concept?So seeing that conceptual image, seeing that identity, seeing through that identity doesn't necessarily mean that your character will completely transform or change. Slowly, certain behaviors will, perhaps self-obsession, will turn into curiosity.
Because instead, everything being about me, you know, they reject me, they fear me, or they hate me, or they will do this to me. Now, there is a curiosity. How is this system, which is not who I am, going to respond in the situation of being under attack? It isn't about me anymore, obsessing about my own identity being threatened, because it isn't who I am. Now it is a curiosity about that mind, that body-mind machine, how it is going to deal with rejection now. And I don't mind rejection anymore. As it was the very very basic fear of fear of humiliation the dreadful debilitating shyness awkwardness now it is wow i wonder fascinating bring it on i want to look into it that's exciting so suffering is gone situation hasn't changed those situations And thisEspecially since I started showing up, Bob insisted on Bob's side.
I've experienced more of a bullying and rejection and humiliation than in the previous four decades of my life. And as unpleasant as it was, of course, it is unpleasant when you receive the phone call with the life threat. It is unpleasant. Or you receive an email with a list of people that are building an army of bullies. But the unpleasantness lasts. For as short and as long as it is noticed and de-labeled. And wow, look at this. It habitually reacts with this. Amazing, isn't it? Wow, that's fascinating. That suddenly it was like this and wow, I love it. Okay, bring it on again. Now, instead of suffering, there is something absolutely fascinating going on here.
We are watching the whole system. We're getting to know it. And it isn't personal anymore. It isn't personal, even though initiate like first reaction is just habitual, just the same, just the same way that if you shoot the gun next to the cat or dog, they will also have the same reaction. It's universal.universal reactions aren't the problem the problem is what follows and what used to follow when I experienced I was feeling rejection experience not that much of it throughout first four decades of my life every now and then there might be some mild inconvenience but I would rather avoid it in a way of being quite vigilant and just not putting myself in a situation of of potential rejection I was never falling for enough unavailable guys or anything like that and if I saw the same happening to other people I would again just because it was a typical empathetic machine which hated rejection, I would also spare that to others.
So if I could see any sort of a movement towards any hopes arising in someone who could potentially make full of themselves and invite rejection, I would just navigate it lightly out of the situation to not experience and not provide. But for the last decade, things have changed massively, and it was fun. It was still the best decade of my life. And those situations when the Litmus paper shows you that the suffering that would potentially crush the whole system now was something that was an invitation to learn and curiosity and, wow.And the shit that has been happening, including the life threat
disease of my husband and loss of him and the court case and all that, a litmus paper of the potentiality for everyone to recognize that psychological suffering is optional, that what could be potentially crushing for the identity isn't for the plain cognizing emptiness which registers those things without taking them personally as something that is happening to me as something that is threatening the integrity of the imagined identity because identity isn't imagined anymore.
And yes, the roles and reference systems arise by all means in a moment for the purpose of navigating the world. When I go to the doctor, I'm the patient. When I go to the tax office, I'm the taxpayer. And when I look after the cats, I'm the cat mama. And I speak with them differently than I speak with you guys.And that's the beauty. The identity as a base of all psychological suffering can be easily seen through and questioned. Seeing through once. If it's really, really seen through, doesn't necessarily stop it from arising, but it may stop it from being taken seriously or believed. It's like you can't unsee it.
Once you realize that Santa isn't real, well, you will see Santa all around. But you will never make yourself believe that it is real. So once that conceptual image of whatever you think you are is seen to be just a bundle of mental images and emotions, that's what they are. Doesn't mean it won't look real and it won't feel real.And it will keep arising because that's how the whole navigational system is tuned in. It is designed to respond to danger. It is designed to follow pleasure and avoid pain. It is also designed to soothe itself, to break the patterns of persistent pain. Its design is brilliant in itself, looking how it works without necessarily judging it because, oh shit, this is me, I shouldn't be doing it, I shouldn't be thinking it, I shouldn't be feeling it.
Well, me who? That machine is reacting with those thoughts and those feelings. How personal is that? What business is that of mine? If I'm curious, and this one is still having less than ideal social responses, but there is no... Attachment to it is just curiosity about it then you know judging it is not again is not taken seriously there may be a response arising oh shit I wish I didn't say it well okay that is another response arising And the responses arising, including responses of like, you know, if I step on a cat's tail, oh my God, I'm so sorry, darling. Those are also the...even though the cat doesn't understand the language the way we do.
But even the feeling of sorry is just what's arising. There is nothing personal about anything that arises. And if you see it this way, if you see that the narrative, the commentary speaking in your head is none of your business, it's interesting, if anything. Or pretty boring and it's just to be ignored or is registered or is not who cares See where the attention resides in this moment, in this moment, in this moment, in this eternity of now. Whether it is attending to thoughts or whether it is breaking a pattern of boredom and eating a cookie. Or whether it's doing anything else, whether it's fantasizing.
Or whether it is beating itself up for some negative thoughts. Well, isn't it amazing? Leave it as it is. Because if you are, and you are, the emptiness, the present moment, without the concepts on it, you just are. Pure is-ness, pure space-like, space-like.like sky-like presence that objects to nothing, needs nothing, craves nothing, judges nothing, resists nothing, resents nothing. Space allows everything to be just as it is. Just the same way, you know, the translation of the space into seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. You know, the seeing allows everything to be as it is. The black, the white, all the other colors, every shape are experienced in the field of seeing as just what arises.
Only the mind comes and say, oh, I don't like this color and I do like this color. But seeing, embrace it and allows it all equally. In the field of seeing, every sight is equal. It is just arising. Same with the hearing. Whatever the sound is arising in the field of hearing is just equally arising in the field of hearing. Without attending to it and judging it and labeling and relating it to me, it is just as it is. In the field of experiencing any even pain in the body or the imbalance or the taste or the smell. It is just as it is. If it comes with resistance, resistance is also arising in the field as it is.
So whatever is arising,in the field of thinking can be taken in the same way as everything that is arising in the field of seeing completely impersonally completely neutrally space is neutral and that includes things that arise on top of the thought that arise and the layers over layers over layers of interpreting and relating and giving meaning and giving story and jumping to conclusions and moving and acting and and reacting all of that is just what arises in a space And it's none of your business, just like what arises in the space of hearing. None of your business is neutral. Ultimately, in the essence of what you are, space-like, pure registering capacity, pure witnessing presence.
timeless, spaceless, bodymind, bodiless, mindless, eternal, right now, without any boundaries, any preferences, any partiality, any comparison, just isness, pure isness.That is that relaxed space-like presence. Whatever arises of any capacity or any quality, It's a phenomena. The idea, oh, I like it, is a phenomena. The idea, I don't like it, is a phenomena. It's a complex phenomena. And it grabs a lot of attention because it contains the little virus called I, the virus of the mind called I. And that straight away brings back the whole mental image from the memory, whether it is emotionally charged, sentient being, fearing rejection, or having bad childhood or bad trauma, or the body that is deformed or too old or too young or too tall or too fat.
All of that comes and charges that one word, I. And it becomes personal the attention is sucked up right into it and it becomes important it becomes serious it requires urgent attending and more fuel on that fire it doesn't have to be this way it is really really very simple looking through the mind with the mind it means looking through the lens of constant interpretationconstant narration, meaning making, adding content to what is. If you look with the quiet mind, or if for a moment the mind is paused, and you just, you just the emptiness, completely relaxed, cognizing capacity. Registering the field of seeing the field of hearing the tasting the touching the smelling without any referencing it to anything or anyone without assigning any order of importance to anything or anyone there is a freedom from the desire phenomena come and go but there is a freedom from resistance to what comes and goes there's freedom from needing things to be any different than they are there is nothing wrong anymore Yes, he says enough.
Anyone would like to open the discussion i hope that opened the discussion but maybe you would like to dive into what is most persistently standing out in the way you view yourself you know identity with the profession or with the um role of parenting or the history ofsorts and I think that Sorry. Okay, and then please. Oh. That was so beautiful, Kat. Thank you. Man, really, really beautiful. And very pertinent to what's happening as well, like in life. I've been through a week. It feels like I've been wrung out. It feels like I just, no matter what I do, like everything's just pushed and pushed and pushed.
And squeezed and yeah it's um and it's not that i don't recognize that it's not me or that there's not a me there i can't find a me there but i think um yeah that's that's why that was so beautiful because it just addresses well yeah that's kind of happening and okay um yeah so thanks for sharing thatThank you. Yeah, thanks, Kat. I'm so glad you started this session off because you went into a lot of detail, which is great. And, you know, maybe your thoughts started coming up about what I recall of what's been going on lately, I suppose. You know, I'm just getting ready to go overseas again and, you know, I start having all these seemingly anxious thoughts coming up about, what about this?
What about that? You haven't done this. You'll mess up something or other. You've got to get this booking right or... Make sure you pack this, make sure you pack that, and then see the things going on. And I think it's all being taken care of. You don't need to worry about it. It's going to happen. And I don't know, that's just another story too. It's that whole thing about... You know, stuffing things up in some way. There's someone there who had, and it's not really true that habitually stuff things up. That's not factual, but that's the imagination. Maybe something out of the past that, you know, is dragged along in memory with, you know, the body-mind.
And the other one is you were talking about rejection. And that fear of rejection is something thatNearly everyone that I talk to has it in some way, you know, in some idea that there's something here that's going to be rejected, cut off. And I suppose survival depends on that in a society like ours. It's got to be a way of relating and trusting that, you know, you're going to be looked after in some way. But it was funny. You know, my past role of politics, I've discussed politics with lots of people, but I was with a group of friends who hardly ever discussed politics and all this angry stuff started coming out of them about the government and the society and how it's all fact and this and that.
And I'm sort of thinking, Well, you know, I started putting my point of view and I was, you know, fairly, they were forceful at coming back and I was fairly forceful at saying what I was saying. And then afterwards I was feeling this feeling of shame or embarrassment, thinking I shouldn't have said that. And I think, why not? It was what you thought at the time. And say, oh, no, they, you know, these are old friends. They won't like me. You know, I've done the wrong thing or something or other. And then I thought, no, it just is what is. But it's funny that nagging sort of suspicion that, you know, I've stepped out of line and I shouldn't have said these things to them.
I should have just nodded my head and ate my Wheaties or whatever it was. It's just interesting those ideas now. So, you know, I'm with what you're saying too.Look at it with interest too, you know, where and when it comes up and what sort of substance does it have? I know there's no other substance but thought, but that whole thing about memory and dragging ideas around with you. You know, the past's over and done with, except when you're thinking about it, but the thoughts come up and, you know, interesting to see them anyway. But great to be here and talk about it again. I talk about things like this with a lot of people.
Interesting discussion always with a certain friend who loves talking about manifesting and discussion on that well enough. On that I suppose I just think there's manifesting happens like thinking happens but there's no thinker and no manifester. It just, those sort of things happen and that's all you can say. He talks about this ex of hers that, you know, knew exactly that he was going to become a millionaire and knew when he'd make the money and knew how he'd make the money and it was all there in his mind as a... 20 year old and it's all come to pass exactly the way he imagined it would.
Mozart wrote great music too, more than that.anybody else could write and he started when he was five years old and who manifested that anyway Run out. That's a good one. Yeah, that idea of, you know, saying things and the wrong thing and upsetting people. I mean, that's something else that's come through last week for me as well, because feeling vulnerable, like losing it, feeling overwhelmed, and then actually expressing that, which I would never normally do. It just wouldn't happen. I'd stay strong, particularly with the kids. I'd stay strong, nothing affects you, you stay balanced. But actually expressing it resulted in them stepping up. We never know what the impact of what happens is.
I mean, we can't know in the universe, like how can we predict what the outcome of that interaction with you and them would have on them? And then to argue with it like it's wrong. Oh, no, that shouldn't happen. It's insane when you look at it, isn't it? God got it wrong again. Or the universe got it wrong. Sorry, universe, you messed up again.It is a beautiful, it is, it was a great pointer Kat gave. Do you take the credit for what your eyes see? Do you take the credit for what your ears see? Do you take the blame for what your eyes see? Or your ears see?
No? How ridiculous. Do you take the blame for what comes out of your mouth? Do you take the credit for what comes out of your mouth?Did you have a plan for what your eyes were going to see today? Or a strategy, or a plan for what your ears are going to hear. You have a plan for what's going to come out of your mouth in the next five seconds, five minutes, five hours. You take it personally what you see? What you hear, what you touch, what you smell.You take personally what comes out of your mouth when you don't even know what your next thought is going to be.
Yeah, I know that feeling that's been discussed where I'd go and I would be in a social environment and I'd be having a wonderful time and I'd get like a confidence might come through where I'll express myself amongst the group and then I'll go home and I've had a, you know, I've enjoyed myself and then later that night I'll go back and ruminate on it and think, you know, oh, Jesus, what did I say there? But at the time it was fine. And the thing, you know, and, you know, you've got an ability, Tanya, to make me feel so silly with the things that you say.
Because what you said then, you know, it's... It's true. I'm going to say what I'm going to, like, just like right now, I'm going to, whatever comes out, it's going to come out. So there's not much point. I mean, the guilt's just been, you know, it's just been there since day one, really, from my upbringing and what have you. So it's going to express itself. But as you were... As you were speaking at the start, Kat, I was, the thought came up, you know, that no one wants to play with me anymore. Like, the me has run out of, like it used to be able to,dominate inside my mind and now it's wanting to you know do all its little things that does and it's running into these roadblocks like i'm not interested you know what about this yeah it doesn't really interest me anymore sort of thing like there's um it's losing a bit of its energy not always But it just sort of came through when you speak straight to my heart.
There's that sense that the ego is just, yeah, I guess running out of a little bit of momentum and a bit confused and, yeah, and I just don't take it. So seriously anymore. And there's a sense of the freedom that exists out there. Like it's, I don't know what that looks like, like it's scary. But there's a sense of, Jesus, I'm trapped, you know, I'm just living. 1% of what's potentially out there. You know, I've been in this little cage sort of existence that's got its limitations. And it's almost like, gee, if I penetrated through there, it just opens up in every, each and every direction.
But that's, I don't know how true that is or whether that's, you know. What that exactly. Yeah. But, but there's, you know, a lot of fear that comes with that too. And, and, but I also know that that's just, you know, play as well.I don't know whether it's worth anything. Nothing's worth anything. You know, it's all just. But isn't it fascinating to see the fear arising, to see the guilt arising? You know, when you look at your own body responding to a situation with those emotions, isn't it actually? Interesting like wow look this is a situation this is the response wow it's like you you watch your kid and it's responding to an idea or it's responding to a toy and oh that's interesting being able to see your own machine with the same level of curiosity, with the same absence of judgment.
Not as if, oh, this is personal, oh, shit, you know, this is no good, you know. There's inherently all the guilt and all the shame and all the stuff, and even fear of rejection, a fear of humiliation, is this deep-rooted... Core idea that there is something inherently wrong with me so rejection is justified i should feel all this but if that i element is gone and you just see the stimuli response stimulus response and you are the emptiness watching aha this is how the body was socialized how it was conditioned how it was programmed how it was you know it responds with guilt just as well psychopaths don't have guilt There's nothing to be ashamed of having a healthy.responses but of course the guilt and the shame well if if that gets too dysregulated you'll need a break you'll need the anesthetic drink drug shopping sex whatever it is because the nervous system can only process that much if it gets too much then it will find a way to regulate itself by numbing itself But even that, isn't it interesting?
Is it personal? Nope. There is this very, very sophisticated mechanism here in this body-mind machine doing its very best moment to moment. Who are you to judge it? And if you learn it, if you watch it, like Bob's pointer, watch your mind, see how it functions, be curious about it, see how dualistic and how mechanical it is in its responses, how binary it is in labeling everything supportive, unsupportive, helpful, unhelpful, pleasant, painful, and see how it objects and it resists that which it labeled or judged as unsupportive and see how behind this is the same one agenda. Wanting this this to be okay and in this way it isn't now not only there is nothing wrong with it not only it is absolutely mind-blowingly fascinating how it stands up to that basealgorithm that basic role because every single one is slightly different and it's only this only yours that you can get to know so intimately close if you take put that judgment aside and you genuinely curious rather than genuinely said self-obsessed and self-invested
Anything.
Guilt. Wow. Beautiful. Fear. What a ride. You know, people watch horror movies. There's nothing wrong with fear. Or go down on the roller coaster. Nothing wrong. It's only the mind that says what is right or wrong. Nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. Yeah. And without fear, there is no courage. Without the guilt, there is no whatever the opposite of it is.But I think there's nothing. Without the ego, there's nothing to do. No. No. Like, it's bizarre. Yeah. Like, there's no one to do anything. That's it. That's it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, of course, like, it's, no wonder it's so difficult to dislodge because that's, it's a completely different.
Mode of living it's a different paradigm recognize one another yeah it's a paradigm but you can recognize the recognize the mechanical nature of the mind and that which recognizes is beyond the mind And it does nothing. Recognition is not an action. It's the cognizing emptiness. It is cognizing of its own. Yes. I don't know. I don't know if I like that. But it could, like, it will disappear. It will potentially disappear like a puff of smoke, the idea of me. How about now? Yeah. But now you see the idea of me as the idea of me. This is just an idea. Does it have to go anywhere?
You just see it. And whether it is there or not, who cares? Where are you looking? That's hard for me to get my head around. But yeah. Because I'm sensing it's...Yeah. It's just an idea. It doesn't matter if it doesn't disappear. That's my mind again. The idea of me is just a thought. Yeah. Emotionally charged thought that somehow like hijacks the sense of presence and takes it, put it on as a costume. This is my identity. This is who I am. But even that is registered.Yeah. But it gives a reference point. Mm-hmm. Is there a reference point? No. No. What can you find? Take a look right now.
No, but I feel that I'm centred. You feel that you're centred. Can you find where that centre is? No, I'm not sure. When you draw it on your body? Like an X, like a cross, so I don't know. In the air or in like here? Yeah. Somewhere around here somewhere? Yeah. How do you know? I don't. No, I don't know. There you go. Yeah. Well, it keeps me balanced when I stand. Does it? I don't know. Does it? No, well, I imagine it doesn't. What's the truth about your actual experience right now? Are you seeing from a particular reference point? Can you just take a look?Yeah.
I still feel that preference, like that. But you can't map it. You can just say here. Well, even my skeleton, say, for instance. There's something that... Show us the skeleton. Are you imagining it, maybe? I don't know. I don't know. All right, we'll try this. Try to not be right now. No, I can't do that. Try to not be. What's there?What do you mean? What's there? What's here right now? What's here right now? And yeah, just life. You cannot life. Try it. And you not beave just for an instant, an instant. Yeah, no. You know that you are. And what's the skeleton? Isn't it mental image?
Yeah, well, it's just my mind, I guess. Projecting. Yes, yes. The information from the third hand that someone gave you. You've never experienced a skeleton. Someone told you this particular sensation is your spine, this sensation is that bone. It was all collection. Of third-hand information not the direct experience direct experience is just or all saying then the map of reality is created that this one contains the skeleton and the inner organs what the four-year-old knows about it nothing and yet it experienced life just as you do And then you add more information. You go to the medical doctor and they will have more details about it.particular nerves and spine experience is the same as prior to whatever the knowledge has been put on top of it So the direct experience without that is not to discard that medical knowledge and all that.
It's absolutely wonderful within the reality, seeming reality of that living dream. But the direct experience is first, is prior to it. Even without that labels is still there and is here the location is always here yes here is the center you could say of the whole experiencing but is it really is there anywhere that you can experience that is away from that here. If you localize the here, that here is the size of a fist, or here is the size of a tennis ball or the football, or here is just the whole conscious awareness in which the whole world seeing hearing tasting touching smelling all of it is arising here limiting the sense of here to particular location or size is secondary little baby when it is born it doesn't have the concept of sizes or evenand it doesn't have the image of the upper body, and yet it experiences, I'm here.
And that here is limitless unless you limit it with the concept, with the thought. Put the thought aside and yeah yeah it's located absolutely here but here is not necessarily in the body and it's not necessarily out of the body it's nothing that can be said about it it can't be pinpointAnd any size, shape or form comes later. And it could even be, you know, like it's malleable. It could be modified. It could be suggested. And even if it was a particular shape or form, and you would define it that, yes, look, it is persistent. It is always a size of, let's say, of the tennis ball and gray and dense and cold.
Okay, so that's what arises here. That shape and that size and that location arises here. Now, forget about what arises. Look at here. Where it arises. Define that. Oh, okay. So this one is maybe a shape of a like a big plate maybe. And it's a little loose. Okay. That's also what arises here. Now, define the here. And there is no definition. Strip off the layers of the mind that is trying to put some concepts on it. And you're staying with this non-conceptual directness of here. And the world showing up seeing hearing tasting touching smelling imagining projecting spine projecting heart lungs whatever whatever you know whatever has beenIt's going to be straight away amazing.
And you can see how you sleep at night or you put the funny dress and something else will be projected. People who are into manifesting, you know, they imagine themselves slimmer and taller. And that's the projection. And people with the body dysmorphia, they may be anorexic and they imagine themselves huge and they keep starving themselves. And they are not doing any of it. It's just the way the projector works. When the projector is tweaked with, that's how it works. Amazing. It's just amazing to really, you know, to find that curiosity about the whole magic trick of that whole here being fully furnished with whatever is arising without any doing.
It's just discovering. And it's like, you know, when the me disappears, it doesn't get boring. If anything, it's like, wow, the world's still there, still appearing. The Shakti's still dancing. The Maya is still swirling that colorful dress, the seeing, the hearing, the thinking, all of it. Fully there. It's not dull or boring. Yeah, okay, the drama is gone. No.The drama can still arise. It's just not my drama. Yeah. I was just thinking that's the source of all our troubles is the seeming self. It's not always there. It's something that we sort of grow and develop. You know, like kids are... Kids are sort of happy running around doing whatever their life.
They're coupled by the same anxieties. But as you grow older, this me idea gets more and more enforced that, you know, you've caused all these troubles or if you don't watch out, this or that's going to happen. And, you know, I like all that, you know. Is there, you know, is there, does the mind say I see to see, you know, you have to think I am seeing to actually see, the seeing just happens and that, and, you know, you might say I'm hearing this and that, but do you actually have to do anything to hear or think about hearing? It's just going on. And the same with the thinking and doing, but the doing one was one that I always found hard to accept.
Surely I'm doing it. I mean, you know, I'm the one who's going to chop the wood or I'm going to cook the dinner. It's all me. It's, you know, it does the...doing just happened too without any personal volition in it. It's like, you know, the thought I'm aware, okay, I'm aware of this room, but I'm aware of being, but the awareness stretches out even further if you think about it, you know, I'm aware of the traffic noise, but it's sort of like the awareness stretches out beyond me, you know, the awareness of the traffic noise, the street, Oxhill further up the road, the planets, but it's all happening in awareness in a way that is the awareness.
And we think, oh, no, I'm doing it. And it's like the seeing sometimes. I think, well, I'm seeing the chairs and everything from a different point of view. And Dean's seeing it from another point of view. So it's the right view. Yeah. It's the correct view. It's just the truth. You're absolutely wrong. I've got the right view. Your view is warped. But, you know, and then I think, like, I used to work in film and TV. If I was a camera and there are three cameras on the set, they're all seeing the set. But I might think I'm the important camera. I'm the one that's setting it from the right angle.
But they're all doing the seeing. It's like being a leaf on a tree and thinking, well, you know, it's important that I function properly and, you know, I'm a better leaf than all the other leaves in the tree. But maybe that's...They're all thinking that, you know, and it's just a tree functioning or the ants doing their thing and one ant's thinking, oh, fuck this bloody light up here, you know, I'm going to do it differently. They're all wrong, you know, if I thought about moving this bit of food around, I'd do it another way. But it's still just the functioning of the ants doing their antish thing, you know.
And yet we get this idea in our heads that we're so separate and so divided away from it all when really it's all part of the one functioning. And it's that delusion that we're separate and we're at fault or we could be doing it better and they're doing it badly and all that stuff that causes a conflict. That's it. Yeah. It's funny. We were talking about that very thing where.You know, the guy may choose to go to school and study law. Then he buys his cool pad, gets his Porsche, dresses up in a certain way, and he attracts the girl. And plants his seed and they have, they manifest a baby in the picture.
When every other person, whatever route they take, is everyone is doing the exact, manifesting the exact same thing. And we're talking about what is the bower, the bower birds that, that, you know, fancies up their nest and et cetera. And then you can see it in that to, to attract the female and to, to do that very thing. And it's just an amazing thing to see how, um,Just we're all just kind of. Doing the same thing in a way. Lifing. Yeah. But it is nature. It's nature. It's nature. You see it as you are. This one blip in the whole of nature just acting out.Yeah.
Anyway, yeah. It's a freeing experience. It's a good story. What's that? The interconnected is the story in which everything is connected. Nothing is separate. So to see that, you know, the conversation of not the doer and all that is to see oneself just participating in the act of nature in itself. I don't know else how to put it, but it's... And all that is coming and going and changing and swirling and colours coming in and stuff, blah, blah, in and out. Yeah. But always here. Yeah. Always here. You're never not that. It's not something you're going to become tomorrow.No, with 100% certainty, you are that right now.
Nothing to get, nothing's missing, nothing that you have to learn, know. Just open up, see it, see it. It's not a mental construct. It's not a concept, doesn't require words. You know it, you're knowing, knowing. It's intrinsic, natural, for want of a better word.very subtle, say subtle because so often attention is directed to the minutiae, you know, the thought, the focus sitting in on that, the drama, rather than seeing from where it's all being registered. It just is being registered. It's presence, awareness, awareness. Presence. You're not going to become anything different. Tomorrow or in the next five minutes. Oh, now I've got it. Now I'm enlightened.
Everything will be perfect. Sorry. But people, like I watch a lot of spiritual content for a long time, and people, I've had so many people have these mind-blowing moments that they share or they talk about the energy that flows through them and, you know, like... Their heart beat at a rapid rate or something, and then kapoof, they had this moment. You know, is there a truth to that or is it each to their own? Of course, that beautiful moment had a beginning and had an end. It came and it went. Poof. Nothing. But what knew it came? Yeah, but they basically said that, I mean,I'm sort of putting them all in the one basket, but the idea that they were seeing the world from one particular point of view, they've had this moment and now they're seeing the world from a different point of view.
It's an experience. Yeah, but it stayed with them is what I'm saying. It was always there. It was always there. It wasn't something new that came with a rush and a bang and fireworks. You can't get away from it. It's always there. So look for that. Look, look for that. Believe it. Like 100%, you are that right now. Okay, then. Okay, then.Do you not know that you exist? You have to mentally construct something to make yourself be. No. Just not cognising, registering everything that's the sound of the tram going past. My hands waving around, my head nodding. If you think of those, you know, of those experiences that people describe that happened in the past, you know, the experience of cosmic union or the experience of, you know, those experiences, they happen on drugs also.
And when they describe the experience, oh, yes, I was just sitting in the meditating and this, you know, this huge Kundalini awakening. And then, you know, maybe aliens or maybe just the whole universe started coming out of my heart and unconditional love. Imagine them describing a particularly powerful, mind-blowing, perhaps the first orgasm they ever experienced. Not right now, back then, in the past, 30 years ago, whatever. What does it matter? That someone had pleasure, that someone had moment of vision or cosmic union. Where is it now? Are they experiencing it right now as they describe it?Oh, yeah, they work themselves up and they, ooh, you know, when I think about my grandmother dying, I feel like crying now.
And when I experience this fantastic orgasm, I feel like my heart is beating faster. But what does it matter? Both pleasant and unpleasant experiences are just a phenomena that comes and goes. It doesn't matter. Good on them. They had some pleasure. Good on them. I wish pleasure upon everyone because that's the natural, you know, everyone, this is just the wiring of that whole system. Wishing for pleasures. Look at this cut. Getting a lot of pleasure from Michael Patinkin. Yeah, that's natural. But there is no value in the passing phenomena. That they had a good Kundalini awakening experience. So, what is it now? I understand, you know, it is just experience.
But, you know, the Buddha sat under the Bodhi tree until he found enlightenment. Did he not? Like, I often hear people who, you know, people who teach have had some experience that led to their so-called awakening. So I'm not talking about, I know experiences can come and go. Forget about other people's stories. Forget about everything you've heard about experiences. Stop waiting for the experience. All those stories are already taken.Life is too creative to repeat the same story twice. And yes, if you want the story, you can create your own story about the transformational experiences in your life, experiences of insight, experiences of realizing something profound, experiences even from your puberty when things started coming online, different programs.
But those experiences are just the backstory. And that's why when people used to ask Bob about his story, how it actually played out when he saw Nisar Gadada, oh, okay, what did he exactly tell you? What does it matter what he told me? He told me the same thing that I heard a thousand times before. I'm not the body, I'm not the mind. And then what happened? Nothing. I just saw it. Nothing. Really nothing happens. The story told by the mind is a profound, huge realization. But really, it is just that disillusionment. What happened when you first realized that Santa Claus wasn't real? Nothing happened.
What happened when people realized that the earth isn't flat? It is just one illusion less in the whole manifested dream. So when you realize that that self that you thought you were is just a collection of feelings arising, thoughts arising, And suddenly it is clear that that's not, that the identity you thought you were is not who you are.really happens and at the same time of course is it it is a defining moment it is this paradigm shift because now from looking from behind that particular lens that is just seeing but who is seeing is just seeing there is no person behind who believes that i am there
looking out of my eyes this is me this is i now seeing is the same not one inch different but there is the belief that this is a little me there looking that's gone nothing really happens and yet the illusion of me being the doer me being the looker the hearer the thinker is no longer believable That's all that happens.
And yes, if there is an intense, profound suffering, like in the case of Bob, who ended up with Nisargadatta because his life collapsed completely, his wife left him, his home, everything, he lost everything. And when I came to Bob, I was in a very, very similar situation. So yes, the sense of elation. By the contrast, you know, when you wear that concept of me as like a tight, almost like a, what you call it, the sleeveless suit in the mental world, you know. Straight jacket. Straight jacket, yes. Just completely confined, like, shit, you know, this is me, contraction. And then suddenly... Oh, shit. She's so spacious.
All the heavy weight of that drops away. It almost feels like flying. So now the mind will construct the story. The backstory will be, the light.The love, the kundalini, you know, and the more creative mind, the more flashy story. And if you really want to have a big, good audience, shit, the story will be so embellished that you will collect thousands because we are storytelling species. But that is confusing. That is unfair. That is not true compassion. Because now there is life deceiving this, you know, and implanting hopes and implanting more of the waiting. When is this going to happen to me? What happened to you?
I want to happen to me. And the search goes on and on and on. That's why Bob would never do that. His life expressing through him is just too clear to deceive through the story. I remember, you know, one of those guys was sitting on the bench and then bomb. Or another one going through the park. Thousands of seekers and which bench, which bench, which park? I want to go through the same park. They kill us. Nothing really happens. But if the suffering, you know, if you are really crucified, everything in life makes that straight jacket so confining and so tight that you die for freedom.
Then the moment that.illusion dissipates yes the expansion feels like suddenly they're traveling thousand miles an hour every direction the same time which is bliss and light and But this is just an experience of contrast. It doesn't matter because there's no experience there. And it evens itself up after a while. And still, just like the cat, does he look orgasmic? Well, now when Michael strikes him, maybe. Yeah, just like in your own direct experience now, can you know what the next sound is going to be ever? And so when we hear a sound, we turn it into concepts. So that's traffic, that's cars, that's a tram.
The sound is just there. You don't have to turn it into a concept. So if you're listening to my voice, imagine I was speaking in a foreign language. You didn't understand the words. So you might be curious, but then you just let the words go. It's just the sound. Instead of noticing the sound, notice the silence between the sounds.The silence is always there before the sound, after the sound. Never changes. So just like you don't know what the next sound is going to be, what's your next thought? And when it comes, it's straight like it's in a foreign language you don't understand. To them before.Does it have a boundary or an edge?
Nice to meet you, pal. No. And don't think about it. Just almost ask the space or the silence itself and just wait for a yes or a no. He just knows truth. There's no boundary around it. Does that have any judgment or any right or any wrong? Yeah, no. No. Can you hurt it or harm it? No. Does it go anywhere? Can you get closer to it or further away? Don't think about it. Ask into it. Wait for the knowing. Yeah, no. Is there anything outside of it?No, just itself. Does it reject anything? No. Isn't that pure unconditional love? It's like, do anything and everything.
Has it ever been anywhere else? Couldn't imagine so. If I ever experienced it, I've had it's been there. Has it ever changed? Can you change it? No, it was the same when I was a little boy. That's for sure. Yeah, it never changed. All the stories of you have popped up in it, all the experiences, all the pain and suffering. There's been touch playing. No.If you've got them flying and lose them, you have to pack it and take it with you. No. It is? Mm. Wasn't that how you truly are? Mm. Not big bang explosions or... Or Kundalini. And so basic and simple, that's what I overlooked.
Isn't that it? Yeah, I guess I was, yeah. I mean, if you move, I mean, it's, I guess using the word paradigm, I guess it's nothing. So not moving one paradigm to another. That's what I was, I guess the point was to move from one way of living to another. Does it require some sort of... They're all thoughts, aren't they, popping up in there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nothing's changed. No. It's always been that. It doesn't matter what the thoughts are or paradigm comes or goes.It's boring. Ordinary dog shit awareness. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to pull Hederman. And that's why you can't get it because it's already here.
Walking out the door and walking up the street and going looking for yourself. You're going to find yourself. Already here. I guess I'll be there when I've got nothing left to say, I suppose. But that's okay because that'll pop up as well. So the saying will pop up, talking to thinking. Yeah. Like I was saying last week, I was totally lost in the story. You'll know the story's not true. I got totally lost in it.So nothing changes really from who you truly are. Nothing changes. Everything else changes around it. And then you just have to keep remembering and remembering, recognizing the problems coming back to you.
And forgiving yourself when you fail.Yeah, I'm too far. I'm too deep in now to go back. So it's like the matrix, isn't it? Yeah. That's one thing. Once you've seen it, you can't really go back. Yes. Yes. All the stories and this and that and this works and that works, you know, so-and-so said this and so just. Trust in, and that's a concept, but just, all right, if you believe, if you have to believe one thing is that you are that. Start from that. Start from that.You don't need any more advice, reading this, that, you know, perpetuate the whole story of seeking. Yeah. Believing that it's something you don't already have.
And waiting for it to come. And then, you know, oh, I'm in the process of becoming. You never get there. Yeah. That's so bad. You never get, you never, reach home because you're already home. Yeah.No, you're already there. Okay. Okay. Just in that. And keep looking, keep looking for this imaginary doer. Person who's seeking, putting in effort, trying, trying, trying, reaching for, trying to get it. And just that relax, that relaxes. Just see that you're knowing, just knowing that this is all happening.And then wrap it up. Bring it home. Well, yeah. You can hook it up with this. No, no, just put this away. I think it's time.
No, it's not. Yeah, well, like, you know, start, you know, we'll end with the fact that you're already that. Normally we started with that fact. But what is that? You know, what actually is that?You can say that, that is not a belief, like what we're talking about. That is like pure existence itself. And that is like the energy that makes the whole universe appear, that makes a sense of a me appear or a sense of a you appear, a sense of space, a sense of time, a sense of everything. Appears within that. So everything can be that, and yet none of it is that as well, because that is what allows everything to be.
And as soon as you, you know, like all you need to do is nothing, because everything has to always, whatever's going on is, is, an expression of that. There is no escape of that. And that has no limitations or boundaries or directions or space. And that is always now. It's always immediate. It can't be anything other than immediate. And, you know, all the stories and all the seeking and all the descriptions of endless descriptions, everything that happens, every aspect of or expression is that. There's nothing other than that. And so to think I'm a dean in this body living in the world is a little description in the totality of that.
So you can't get out of that. You are that whether youwant to believe it or whether you don't want to believe it or whether you feel it or whether you don't feel it, it doesn't actually make any difference at all because there is nothing other than that. But recognise that or start from that place and then it may change the whole dynamic. Because if you start from a contracted sense of the person trying to get to that, well, you're already like, it's already misinterpreted to begin with. So the premise in which is already a mess. And that is that. I'm just going to say thank you for everyone who's been with us on Zoom.
And I hope next time we may be here a little bit more of you. And thank you for those who were with us on Facebook also. There was no comments today. So, yep. Thank you, everyone.