This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
It was just a... I didn't try Facebook as well. Bye. And. Welcome everyone. We are back to the group investigation. Anyone would like to give us a spiel, start us off? Do you know? No. No. No. Okay, so...The honors are mine, like it or not. We had a little adventure a couple of few days ago on our Zoom group where we had a visitor. Oopsie! Ouch. Intervention. We had a visitor who actually came to the meeting to express his disappointment that Bob lost his wits at the end of his life. He got weaker. His pointing wasn't that sharp. He wasn't clear enough to see that he should have handed over to him and not to me.
And Tanya stood up for it and then pulled it out into the picture. And after the meeting, four different people reached out to me, expressing the love and gratitude towards Tanya being the, you know, like showing up as love fighting spirit. No, we're not going to be letting anybody spit on Bob. He's dead. Hello. You know, just a little bit of dignity. Obviously, what Bob was trying to do for the 20 years of their friendship didn't work. He could not actually see the pointing where it was leading. So the loyalty towards Bob wasn't, understandably wasn't there. And there was another people actually bringing up some more comments, also loyal to the bull.rather than to Bob.
And even after, you know, like a month or two after Bob's passing, I was getting harassment messages and even people coming home and shouting down, no, it shouldn't be you, it should be me. Or it should be him. So that's a really good start. To bring the introduction to non-duality and focus on those really subtle, nitty-gritty, nitty-gritty little ways in which the identity re-establishes itself. But I don't know if Peter is with us on Zoom and we have Ross here, Joe, Anthony, Ben and Dean and whoever is with us online, welcome. So the basic predicament, you are already that. You know that you are, you are life essence, and that includes everyone.
That includes people who still believe their identities, who still believe they are advaita police or inquisitors or great correctors because, you know, there is nothing right. Nisargadatta was stupid. Everything is wrong. And I am on a mission to fix it and correct it and alter it and modify.include the comparison and judgment and preference and partiality. So those people who believe that I am enlightened and you are not, because I had an experience like 20 years ago, at some moment I've experienced something, a light or whatever I've experienced, that proves that I am enlightened. Now, this is where the rubber meets the road. Who has experienced what?
Who is there to know how this moment should look like? Who is there to believe that things should be different than they are? This is where the investigation starts. This is not where it ends. This is where it starts. Yes, you are already the life essence. Yes, you already are the existence. And the clarity of that existence that is beating your heart, that is speaking through your mouth, that is hearing through your ears, that is seeing and is projecting. If you are miserable, you project misery. If you're happy, you spread happiness. clarity, that life essence fueling through the magpie, it brings a song, through the dog, it brings the barking, through the cat, it's purring or meowing, through the human being who is inherently programmed by its environment to be anxious or fearful or doubtful.or bullying, that is how it expresses.
It is never anyone there. It is never anyone there who questions Bob, who is loyal to the one who questions, who believes they are right in what they say and what they see. There's still nobody there. But the perception and the experience is that of psychological suffering. I am enlightened. I got it. You don't. You don't. You don't. You shouldn't be here. What is it? Can you imagine clearer example of separation? Where is the inclusiveness? If I am wiser or better than you, if I know something better than you, shoot me now. That's separation. That's pain. That's suffering. That is precisely what is not necessary.
There is a possibility, like Buddha said in his first Four Noble Truths, there is a way out of that delusion of grandeur. There is a way out. Just sit back, and this is what Tanya beautifully answered to the man. And there was quite a few of those guys over the years coming and pointing down, pointing the fingers. A lot of people stopped.showing up on the meetings because they didn't want to be exposed that the inquisitor believes you know ego is real i will expose it oh poor projector yes his ego is obviously believed into existence still not real But if you believe, if you believe the earth is flat, that's what you experience.
If you believe the world is against you, the government is going to, by the way, he's also subscribing to a lot of those types of conspiracies too. So if you believe those things, shit, you live in fear. That's the truth for you. But now, and this is just a pointer, mind is a tool. You don't have to imagine a persona slaving to every thought arising, showing up in your mind. If the thought comes up in your mind, oh, this is wrong. Nisargadatta says there is nothing wrong, but in my eyes, everything is wrong. And I am right. He was delusional. If that thought shows up, there is an invitation to just pause.
Be the space. Allow that thought emerge and see it for what it is. In that gap, in that spaciousness,The possibility of not bluntly believing that thought, not fanatically slaving to it, opens up. You are the space, you are the cognizing emptiness. The thought is just an expression, it's just a vibration. And that thought is also included. This is all about the inclusivity, complete inclusivity. But you see the form for what it is. It's a form. It's an appearance. And what you are is the presence. Ever fresh presence awareness just this nothing else not that thought not that identity not that mission that you have in life and I'll say that you know even those missions I will correct it I will fix it I will get burn those witches he actually called her a witch he called her a fairy on the stick I yeah what a joke And a beautiful, yeah, a stupid cow.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was really sweet. It was really fun. That was because a good love. Good love. Yeah, yeah. But it is also an amazing, amazing demonstration of where you can slip off the razor's edge.to investigate that subtlety of the delusion of grandeur. I know and you don't. I know how you should be. I know how things should be and you don't. That lack of humility, that lack of realization that Wow, this is just too complex, too mysterious. The way the life brings the energy, moves and change. This calls for the wow. It calls for stopping the mind. You want to hear that idea?
Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, yeah.So it doesn't really, it doesn't have to cause psychological suffering. It doesn't have to cause the turmoil. It doesn't have to bring up the mission of, you know, like, I will fix it. And it's beautiful. This is really sweet to have that because it's love behind every action. It's always love. So there is love who brings those bullies 20 plus years older to just try and fight those witches, you know, the fear of women, the misogyny, everything in it. I want surrender. You're not surrendering to anyone but life itself. And the longer you stand your ground and. Try to expose egos, the more you assert the belief that the ego is real.
It is not. But the motivation is always love. The love that is filtered through the belief. You know, like the love that the pedophile feels when it grabs the child. And it says this child is from a broken family. They always target those type of kids. And I will give them love. I will be the one who sponsor it. And the poor kid is confused now. It hurts, but it gives and provides. This type of mis-guided love filtered through the idea that hasn't been investigated becomes the bullying, the fight, the defending some sort of crazy ideas that life is wrong, God is wrong, Bob was stupid, or he lost it, all those ideas.
Thoughts that haven't been investigated, that are blatantly, blindly believed and followed, slaved to, their life essence, because there was no position, there was no insight, there is no space. The thought arises, it's in my head, it is true, that's it. The thought comes, she is a witch, I'll destroy her. What I do, I'll liberate the world from a witch, I'll burn her at stake, I'm the great inquisitor, I'll do it.That thought we've seen in 16th, 17th centuries, that thought unquestioned. The situation of the human condition is still the same. This is still the case. The unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason. Bob would call it a belief.
Suddenly the thought appears. There is no insight. There is no gap. There is no pulsation. There is just living in the head. There is no moment when you just... Drop it to the heart. What's wrong with right now if I don't think about it? Wow, this moment is alive. This moment is precious. Doesn't matter what the idea about how things should look. Doesn't matter about my ideas or judgments about other people, things, places. This moment right now is where the reality is, is the living reality. And this is the difference. I had this conversation also. Isn't the non-duality just another belief system? Yes, for some people it is.
It's another religion. And they be.become the priests of that religion and they become the defenders of that religion they want to preserve the cleanness of that religion and they the great inquisition of that religion of that belief system But what non-duality points to, non-duality is a word, it's a line of sounds, it's just a concept. But what it points to, what's behind that concept? That's the question. It is not about adopting, oh yeah, you know, I heard one pointer. I heard the pointer, watch the mind, see how it works, and I will teach you all. I won't apply it myself. Why would I? I already got it.
I can repeat it. No. That's not the living reality behind the pointer. Let the pointer sink in and unfold, show you the way. Watch the mind, what you're going to find. What is that point going to show you? How does it really function? Because it may tell you, oh yeah, this guy is wrong. There's no one there. It's just your projection. Yes, it appears as other. It appears as a guy. It appears as the guy with negative motivation. But this is just the mind giving the meaning and the story. If you see that, you are.are in the in the world of all wow i don't know what it is i don't know what it means i don't know why it unfolds and appears the way it does whatever i need to know in the moment will be revealed this moment as it shows up right now is complete It's complete, it's beautiful, it's even if there is some discomfort, without labeling, without segregating and knowing it.
Do this question. Here.And this is what is behind that pointer to non-duality. Realization that Nisargadatta would summarize as, there is nothing wrong once you see, and again, there is no one to see, but once the delusion has been exposed, the delusion of grandeur, I saw it, I understand it, I know it, you don't. Delusion of separation when this one is exposed as just the mechanical working of the mind and there is no one left to be superior or inferior and there is no one else to be separate to be right or to be wrongSo there is no one else, no one left to seek, to find, to teach, to correct, to alter, to burn the witch.
There is no one left. There is just life moving and there is a consciousness on noticing of it. And once that noticing is clear, the likelihood of spreading misery drops exponentially. It drops. If it doesn't, if there is still sadness, if there is still misery in the system, well, perhaps the investigation should continue.Who is it? Who is there? Who is right? Who is there who believes that conspiracy or that idea? Is there a subtle sense of identity creeping into that picture? Look at the pattern. Look at the mind. Exposure of that subtlety. It brings the freedom greater and greater. And that's what Bob was saying up until his last breath.
It never stopped. It never stopped deepening in the way of exposing more and more subtle patterns. Without being enslaved by them, without identifying with the pattern, as the pattern. You see the mechanical working of the mind, of the mechanisms of identity, the mechanisms of self-preservation, even the mechanisms of that misguided love that brings more suffering to oneself and to everyone else spreading misery spreading fear spreading sadness even that is just a pattern it can be recognized and once it is recognized is neither good nor bad it's justthe pattern it isn't done by anyone it's just a conditioned machine and the body and the energy of life filtered through it like the wind blowing through the flute But when the inside is there, when the habit of identifying with every thought is broken, there is a seeming choice appearing also.
Is that mechanical pattern going to be perpetuated when it is exposed and seen in light? Suddenly that light of consciousness showing that pattern takes away the fuel, takes away the energy of that pattern.So suddenly the seeming choice is there. Am I still going to go and rape those kids? If now I realize that this way of showing love or experiencing love is actually causing harm to myself and the reflection of myself out there. So this is where the invitation comes. Let that light, that clarity, through that pause, when the pattern arises, rather than seeing how the identity flows, this is my thought, it must be true.
Just a gap drop from the head to the heart and wait. And wonder and see whether the compulsion to follow that thought is still present, or maybe it is not. Maybe it softens. Whether the compulsion of making it to my identity,softens a little bit and then you can see how the life will still function just the way you know the animals function just the way the ai functions they take the role yes now you are my assistant and you play this role and do this for me But there is a freedom from sweeping between switching, dancing between those roles, knowing that neither of them is who I am.
It's just the energy moving between them. And I am the presence seeing the movement of attention. I'm not trapped by it. It's not that this is my schizophrenic identity. I'm this, I'm that, I'm that. Oh yeah, this is who I am. No, who I am is beyond comprehension, beyond definition, beyond mind, beyond words. You don't, you can't know who you are. The knowing that you are is enough.If you think you know who you are, if you think you know what your role is, what your mission is, if you feel identified with your mission, Just pause. Look again. Give yourself that gift of respite from believing the thinking.
Just relax a little bit. The truth of what you are is space-like. Space doesn't need to alter, modify or correct anything at all. The impulse to act comes from space and that impulse to act will act itself out. But if it gets a little bit of space and a little bit of light of consciousness, if that pattern is seen, it's not running you as mechanically as it does. There is a freedom. Freedom from believing unconditionally any rubbish that has been preconditioned in your body-mind machine. Anything that has been installed in that computer.There is a freedom to wait and wonder, to relax, to appreciate. To see the truth underneath.
And then you don't need to expose anyone. There isn't anyone there. You don't need to go on the crusade against the egos or witches. There is no one there. It's just your projections. It's the same one life, singing as a bird, meowing as a cat. And no one is excluded. Those poor pedophiles are not excluded. but there could be potentially, and that's what the non-duality is meant to inspire. Not to direct, not to teach, not to instruct. There is no script, but just inspire. And Bob would say, just pause. Look at that machine. See the magic trick. See how it works. See how the thought comes and covers up the mystery of reality and gives you everything, gives you a role, gives you a meaning, gives you a function.
And then if there is no gap to actually expose it, to see it for what it is, the play, the pattern, the dream, straight away there comes the fanaticism.And the actor forgets it is just a play. It is just a ride. And it becomes dangerous. And it spreads misery. And it goes around and rapes and burns. And the intention is still just love. There is someone in the zone. Yes, and we have a few more people coming up in Zoom. So welcome, everyone. We have six, seven of us now. And I wonder, I think it's enough for the introduction. I wonder if we would like to actually just open up a discussion.
Does it actually bring anything for you guys? Or are you guys on Zoom or anyone who is with us online? Or is it maybe confronting? Or is it maybe scary? Or is it maybe maybe are there any questions or maybe direct experience how do you have a moment of noticing how you get locked in that persistent of identity very often that would be an identity of a seeker or worse Identity of I got it. I'm enlightened. No identity is it. The humble realization that there is no one anywhere.There is no one here. There is no one there. There is just outpouring life. See how, if you have any insight or any question, if you can notice that sense of role coming and grabbing you and making you really just kidnapping completely.
That is just such a beautiful, and I thank the Bully Boys for a beautiful inspiration. And just as Tanya said, it's not too late. You guys keep looking. There is a freedom from psychological suffering, and you are absolutely included. And at any point, you are. Included in that field of loving life and the preciousness that comes through you is appreciated. Yeah, bring it all on. Anyone? Something happened. Yeah. I was just on a lunch break andLong story short, I was waiting in this for a sous-vac. And in a busy arcade. And there's all sorts of sounds and echoes going on, people rushing here and there, people appearing, disappearing.
And a young girl in the shop said, you can sit out there, outside. So there was a chair outside in the middle of this busy arcade. And there were lots of things that attracted one's attention. But at the same time, there was an awareness that that sound is taking your attention, but you have the choice to go with it or not. The more that was let go, the more space there was in the cave. All the sounds and talking wasn't recognised.People talking, laughing, carrying on, walking hurriedly through. But I also noticed there was no thinking going on. And there was a stillness. But seemed to be relaxing, just relaxing.
There was plenty of things to distract, but it was sort of subsumed by the stillness and quietness and the spaciousness of the that's there if you stop from being making objects of things. So the objects gradually disappeared and they were just merging into different sounds and shapes. And there was a greatsense of stability, nothing to get caught up in. And that was... Very refreshing. They are very natural. But it wasn't a, it was different from the usual subject object perception of a dualistic everyday activity.It's just a glimpse of what happens when The thought stops. The Just acceptance of whatever comes up. Whatever comes up. It's all the same suchness.
It's all the same. Everything is equal. There's an equality of everything.And there's awareness of, well, this is quite different, quite different from normal perception and getting caught up in everything, making judgments. And there wasn't any... Sense of entity there. It was just a one, one, sort of merging, changing, variety of sounds and phenomenal can you actually include the sound of the heater right now and the sound of the other sounds and actually recognize that the same is the is the truth here for now for this moment now for you can you can you see this is the same nowIt's beautiful what you're describing, but now it's the same.
Hear the heater? Yeah. Yeah. Just the background sounds. And there is no need to, you know, put yourself in the center and relate. It is just the unfolding, the happening. Yeah, beautiful, isn't it? Yeah.Oh. Do you think that based on the color of our personalities and the lifing that goes on, do you think that we tend to be... Just based on who we are as an individual within the context of the dream, that does it seem that we're kind of, It kind of seems that way. It's like that there are more electrical charges that grabs my attention for a longer period of time than others.
Kind of like the heater. The heater is happening right now, but there are certain things that just resonate with me more.And I'm seeing it. And there's a physical, as I was talking about earlier, you know, that the physical experience from it, from the charge, is that describing the charge in itself? Is that what we're saying? Like if you have a physical experience, that's the charge. But it does seem that...There's certain qualities of it that keep reoccurring. In the experience of lifing. So, and even though I'm seeing it, it does seem like the character is almost addicted to You know what I'm saying? It's kind of addicted to those charges, whatever they may be.
But maybe there is no character. Maybe it is just a habit in the system. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There isn't even any persona that is. It's just like, you know, the nervous system gets, and if you look at the traumatized dog, they will also respond to every slightest sound like this. Because there is certain, you know, like every single machine is tuned individually, is slightly different, is unique, is like a snowflake. So it may have certain characteristics that it responds more. Like, you know, some, and I was this type of a kid, hypersensitive, you know, any sound, any temperature change, any noise, any crowd, it would just freak the whole nervous system out.
So some of the machines are tuned this way.And there's no need even to compare them, although in some cases, even just putting a label brings the relaxation. Oh, okay, I'm not guilty. That's just how it functions. But without the label, just noticing that you're not doing any of it. The thought is arising. The nervous system is responding straight away with the charge. Having just that, even that capacity to see that loop arising, responding straight away, seeing that charge. You're already a thousand miles ahead of those who just lightly react like, you know, like a bull on a red blanket. Yeah.It's kind of like Ross was talking about the same thing, really, is what, out of all the experiences, what shows up is the mind actually thinking about it.
Or obsessing about it. Or, you know, why is it that the air conditioner is of little importance, but then... Anyway.The closest thing that comes to mind is some vague memory of what it was like as a very young child. Just making any sort of sense out of this. booming, buzzing confusion. I think some philosophers said,where everything merges and it's not, nothing's identifiable. That kind of state you might go through in coming out of a dream or going into a dream where nothing is really clear. You sort of just dissolve into that. It's that sort of sense. But it wasn't a persona.There's no sign of it.
So it's sort of the opposite of our everyday dualistic perception. It's just a oneness and acceptance of everything as it is. Thoughts seem to promise so much, don't they? They make, every thought is like a, well, often it's like a promise. If you follow me, I'll show you the light. If you follow me, if you keep following this thought, you'll get to the end and you'll know the answer. They never... It's like a fruitless tree. It's like the roots, the thoughts are like the roots ever branching out, you know, follow me, follow me, follow me. The fruit never, never, the tree never fruits. You never, the answer never comes.
The certainty never, never, never happens. If I just keep following, I'll get it, I'll get it, I'll get it. That's the...rabbit hole. You never work it out with the mind, the so-called mind. The thoughts promise so much, but they never deliver. Empty. Can you just exactly what Ross said? Do you have to understand it? Do you have to have a concept for everything? Which concepts are you going to hold on to and which ones are you going to get rid of? How are you going to figure it out? This is a certified concept. This is not a certified concept. Just see. There is no control.just happening.
won't. The answer is not to be found in the so-called mind, which is just a shorthand way of describing those phenomena that just seem to appear, flee it in and fly back out again. And it's... You describe it as what energizes or keeps those thoughts hanging around, or not the same thought, just building, is the attention, the love that you show those empty promises.that love was just unconditional in a way. Just is as it is and recognition that there's no individual person, mini me, central controller, officiator, lever puller, button presser, making stuff happen.not even the so-called your private thoughts. You're not making that happen either.
And we've talked about this before. You couldn't give a hoot about the so-called thought phenomena of the person sitting next to you. They're not mine. I'm not concerned about that person, so they don't affect me at all. Guess what? These aren't yours either.They'll make all sorts of promises about what they'll, the pleasure that awaits following this, giving this thought attention, whatever. See that they're empty. They're nothing. They have no power. No intrinsic power. The only power they have is the attention. Directed at them, the love given them.see that they are phenomena, not real. And just as Ross was describing, as everything, as this river seems to flow, seems like there's a flowing, There's the impression of a flowing of a time, of a line, a linear progression of things.
It's really just always just now. And there's stillness there amid the arcade, bustling with people everywhere and sounds and noises. Stillness.Always here. Always here and always still. Rest in them? I think the attraction of it was that it didn't make sense, it didn't have to make sense, it was just in a way nonsensical, but very, had a sense of, well, this is home. Let go of all the things that distract us. And there's this, well, that's sort of nirvana in a way. And then objecting to that, you get the samsara. Suddenly, back in the rat race.And there's back to the likes and dislikes and a dualistic way of saying things, receiving.
And that's what it boils down to, you know, if there is identity. Any identity even the the delusion of grandeur even if the identity is identity is i'm the greatest i'm the smartest i'm the enlightened one still separation there still limitation there still suffering no identity no suffering subtle identity subtle suffering strong identity strong suffering but as you say there's no need to believe any assertion any definition of what i am what it means what is my mission what i need to do No need. If you watch the mind and you see that those are just mental constructs, they don't have any substance. They don't matter.
They don't mean anything. That clear seeing. Is the freedom from identity.entity it's like thought like tanya says the invitations for a ride come follow me just i might put me on you know like a costume put me on oh i'm a mother now or i'm a lover now or i'm the fighter or i'm this or i'm just i just have a right nothing wrong this is life dancing it's dance But if there is no clarity that this is just a dance, this is just a performance, this is just a dream, if there is a fanatical belief and identity identifying with that, well, there is suffering.
And it doesn't have to be there. There's nothing wrong playing any role. There is nothing wrong with absolutely anything. It's just the energy of belief, giving it credibility and saying, yes, this is I. This is who I am, what I am. Subtly bring suffering. And the man who actually challenged us on Zoom, obviously suffering, and trying to introduce that suffering and says, people suffer, everybody suffers immensely, projecting it also outside, that they are real people with real egos and real pain and real suffering, just like his own case. How loving, how beautiful, how warm, how compassionate, nothing but bow down to.life appearing as that role.
But that role and that suffering is due to the energy of belief. Noticing how that energy of belief embodies that thought. Yes, the world is full of people, separate, suffering. I believe it. This is true. Boom! Your wish is my command. That's exactly the case. And it doesn't have to be this way. If you question, you look behind, you realize. Wow, this is just an incredible dream. What an incredible show. What an incredible play. And you speak with those who are seemingly suffering and show them the same thing. Don't make their suffering any more real than it already appears to be. That's not help. That's cruelty.
Bring it into the surface see when you don't think it when you don't construct it when you don't believe it where is it oh wow wow it's not there oh my god if i have a minute If I can have a moment without that psychological suffering, when I pause the thought, when I ask myself what's wrong with right now, if I don't think about it, if that's possible,It is possible full stop. Doesn't have to be for a minute. Doesn't have to be for a second. Sometimes the habit of believing anything that arises have to be recognized again and again. Keep seeing that there is no thing that ceases.
Don't fool yourself believing that, ah, 20 years ago I had a glimpse of it and now I'm enlightened. Why do I still suffer? Maybe all that non-duality is bullshit. Maybe you still have to suffer. Who have seen that? Who has to suffer? Look again. Moment to moment, there is only this moment right now. If right now you can see that there is no thought, then it's no problem. If there is no... Believe in anything needing to be any different even if you're hanging on the cross even if you have stomach ache if there is no thought that anything should be different than it is what's wrongNo preference, no partiality, no comparison.
Preference arises. Is it mine? If there is no sense of identity, nope. Can it touch me? There is no sense of identity. Preferences, comparisons, judgments, partiality, they arise in space. Do they have to pull out all the attention and create the identity of themselves?If the habit is really strong, that's what's going to happen. But if there is a resonation, if there is that free attention, that even base level, basic level of recognition, resonation of that free consciousness, that pattern can be recognized. From the space like awareness and if that position can be there for a second and you don't disappear you don't stop existing suffering pauses identity pauses you are nothing for that moment nothing tangible nothing definable If that's possible, even for the split second of asking a question, what's wrong with right now?
That is possible, full stop. There is a way of psychological suffering. If you see what it is, who is it happening to? Is there a me that suffers or is just a charged mental construct arising in consciousness, the cognized in consciousness, seen in consciousness? Ask what it is, charged pattern, happening to no one, not personal, not mine.then even the anger, even the frustration, even the sadness, if you insist on labeling it, if it comes up with the label, can just be, wow. And that seemingly unpleasant sensations and emotions, seemingly, because you take the label off and they just... Buzzing energy. They don't cause suffering anymore.
Because there is no one, no identity saying, I want this, I don't want this. It should be like that. It shouldn't be like that. Everything's welcome. Everything's included. This is your favorite quote. Welcome included. No, no. Yeah. Leave a comment. Leave a comment. Oh, all right. Oh, Lindsay. Hello. Oh, hi, Lindsay. Hi, Dee. Okay. Peter, is it? Yeah. Can you hear me okay? Yeah, we do. We do. Yeah, what you're saying is so beautiful, Kat, so relatable. I guess with me sometimes, if things do come on really strongly, maybe I give attention to it when I shouldn't. But then I sort of... what's wrong with right now if you don't think about it was such a good point for me but then there almost seems to be like a lag timejust this machine still sort of has the intense feelings everything is very very even though i've sort of pulled back and relaxed into okay yeah there's nothing wrong with right now but everything is still very strong and happening uh is that sort of normal eventually i sort of look back and i wow that was pretty intense there but you know i'm just observing it all but yeah sometimes i wonder if the body is going to sort of catch up quickly and sort of uh i don't know i sort of want a peace of mind or something you know but um you know recognizing it and uh just seeing what it is it's uh it's the key but then yeah it's just sometimes it seems to take too much time Yeah, yeah.
See, Bob says, this is a really, really good analogy. He says that, you know, the guy coming out in the dark goes to his basement, steps on the wet rope and shivers, goes right away and he panics and his heart stops. Oh, shit, I stepped on a serpent. It's going to kill me now. The other guy comes and shine the torch on it. Oh, that's just a wet rope. There's no danger here. And the guy's just, But the trembling stays in the body for good. It might, depends on the nervous system, maybe a few minutes, it may be an hour. Because of the whole flooding of theof the chemicals in the whole system, it may shake you and depends on the particulars of the conditioning of the nervous system, of the physical structure, of the 10,000 things.
Different sensitivity, it may take a while. And it is perfect. It all happens in its own perfect timing. Sometimes it goes really, really slow so you can see it really, really well. When things happen very, very quickly, they may be missed. Enjoy it. Yeah, enjoy it. Enjoy it. Enjoy it. Enjoy it. There's why, you know, so there is a concept about or wishing for, I wish this was different. I wish that, you know, as soon as I see through it, then the physical experiencing of it will drop, should drop. Faster, sooner, better. If I was better, will this change? I want this to change. See that.
See through that.And when physical sensation comes in the body, see the thought come up to label it. As anxiety or some kind of pain or something to be feared or blah, blah, blah. Instead of, and see that, see through it. And then... Have a look what is actually occurring. You can be, you know, oh, it's just a, it's just a, boy, it's just what it is. Without a label, it's just what it is. Not right, not wrong, not hot, not cold, bad, good. There's no need for it to go. Yeah.It's exactly what you said. Nothing if, you know, what's wrong if you're not having a thought about it?
It applies to that too, everything. Yes. The thought seems to come and gives you a promise again, you know? Or you know when you get this better or this this might go or this should go if it's not going is something wrong oh see through that yeah that's just i don't think it's truly this way yeah yeah wishing of becoming different than it israther than, well, here it is, so it is. And that's the mind's function, you know. If you see that beautiful navigational system, that navigational aid that is supposed to keep the body alive and deliver pleasure, And it does its job. It says, oh, look, you know, we need more pleasure.
We need peace of mind. Peace of mind. What a pleasure. Unconditional love, cosmic union, enlightenment, pleasure, pleasure. So it keeps us, it has been designed. It keeps chasing it. See that pattern of wanting more pleasure, wanting more peace. Not this, not this, not just now, not as it is. More peace, more pleasure. That's just another way that mind comes and invites you for the ride. And now with a kiss the sweet is love is love of being showing up through the mind you know if you go to the heart it doesn't have words it is just a sense of all but if you take it to the mind it will be translating us i want more pleasure i want more safety I want more connection.
I want more this. Oh, more, more. Because I love. That's, you know, how I translate the loving into the tasks, into the altering, modifying, correcting, changing, rearranging. That's.That's what the love of being translate through the mind shows up as. Seeing through it and just taking all the labels and movement of energy. It is perfect as it appears. It doesn't have to go faster. It doesn't have to. See, I've seen over the nearly a decade, Bob getting worked up a few times. He's got, oh my gosh, you know, I wrote it in the biography book. He's been betrayed by almost everyone in his life. And the way he took it, of course, there was a moment of like disappointment.
If it wasn't, we would have to kind of question his heart, his capacity to love. But that moment was met without the label as the movement of energy. Wow, wow, that's interesting. That's fascinating. That's another thing appearing as that. Do I want it to go? No. There's no one there having any preference for anything to be any different. If it appears as a heartache, wow, that's beautiful. Let it be there. It has been seen completely, received, included, seen for what it is pure.energy with no labels no stories no meanings no relating to the me no poor me attached to it just pure phenomena on the screen and then it is free to stay free to go if it wants to hang in welcome If it dissipates, fine.
Yeah. To be with me, it might be sort of partly old habits and things too. Maybe as a weekend of it, it'll sort of just happen more naturally and more easily. It almost seems like it's a test of patience sometimes, but I think a lot of it is just... Allowing it to take it is it is an old habit but don't wait for it to change because waiting is another trick of the mind yeah yeah even being patient and waiting is the subtle it is a subtle belief that no as it is right now is no good When I wait long enough, it will be easier.
It's just as it is right now. This is it. This is the pure perfection. Even if the headache or toothache lasts for a week, even if the cancer pain gets you 200 milligrams of the morphine every day. You are that now. You are that now.No waiting. No becoming. That's it. This is it. This is it. This is it. Everything else is a concept, belief in a thought. This is it. No doer. No doer. Yeah. No doer. That's very helpful. Thank you. And that was a beautiful question. It was really lovely. Thank you. I'm going to include Lindsay. And Lindsay says, hello, loving listening in today.
And Lindsay, actually, we were talking about you a couple of days ago with Paula. I don't know if you remember Paula. She was saying, you know, where is that beautiful girl? She comes sometimes. You could also join us on Zoom if it is too far to go. Or to our mandala girls um wonderful to hear from you let me see what it is hello loving listening in today i'm enjoying hearing the many perspectives i would add that even thoughts are part of what is 100 and are not the problem except when they attach to the primary false belief of a separate identity. Beautifully put, Lindsay.
Once this is seen, then thought,become part of the ever-changing landscape like everything else lovely to hear you all and contribute to the conversation love and Lindsay also brought us a lot of beautiful hearts here and yeah join us on zoom if it's too far to come we do miss you and wonderful to hear from you and thank you Do you know? No? No, thanks. Anyone else? Yeah, thanks.Yeah, there's lots that I could sort of talk about. Yeah, like for me, like everything is unfulfilling, you know, it's been that way for forever. And like I've always just thought I was broken, you know, from day one really.
And so I've been trying to, you know, I've been trying everything, everything. But I came across, I suppose, the concept of, it's not a concept, but non-duality probably in my 20s, like 25 years ago. And, you know, it hit a chord. And so I've been searching ever since, but... Which, you know, is a fruitless exercise in and of itself. Yeah, but I can't, like I've never, even as a teenager, I couldn't project any sort of future that would be satisfying for me because it, like whether it was money or fame or fortune or whatever it might be, I could just see that it was empty, yeah, or it just was only going to be transient.
So this, I suppose this became... Spirituality became something that I could hang my hat on. Which I can't anyhow. But, yeah, so it's just like the mind's always got one more trick up its sleeve. So I'm just sort of going up and down. I'm just sort of going up and down the one spot.in a way because I'm always ultimately just in my head, you know, and when I started coming here just the last couple of months, I realised, like even though I'd heard it a thousand times, I can't do anything, you know, yeah, and because I'm always... Even if I'm taking that information, I can't do anything.
My mind will play with that idea. So I'm just constantly trapped. It's hell. And then I come here and I get relief momentarily because the message is strong and I feel it. And the mind slows down for a period, but I know I'm just going to go back out there today and be, you know, in that world again. And it is, I think it is softening and there's more similar to Ross's experience with the kebab, like I'm having those moments as well. So there's some sweet moments. You know, in amongst it all. But ultimately, I'm just running on that self-will and it just reinvents itself, you know, in a million different ways.
But life keeps pushing me, you know, it's just always... It's, you know, like I look at my whole life and everything I've done, I haven't done any of it. I can see that because none of it's panned out the way I planned.And my son, like my son, he's 18 now and he's independent and I think I've used him like a crutch for a year. Like I've loved him so much and I've poured myself, I'm a single dad, so I've poured myself into him. And it's sort of been like, I guess, not an excuse, but a... Like now that he's sort of independent, again, I'm left just with me.
So all this stuff's back to square one again, I guess. Yeah, I don't, I mean, I don't have questions, I guess, because, I mean, maybe I do, but. I mean, I remember asking you a few weeks ago, Kat, about is there such a thing as purgatory? And you said, no, there's not. I was hoping you'd say, yes, there was. Yeah. Yeah. But then I said, well, what about faith? And you said, no, that's not relevant either. So what? So where does one go? You know? That was the goal. Yeah. Who wants to go anywhere? How about staying here? And it was beautiful, actually, what you described.
I don't know if you actually heard yourself. You say, I can see, I walk out, I get the relief, and I walk out here, and I can see it reinventing itself. It, the identity reinventing. That's not you. It is just a mechanical.construct right now it causes pain because it's still charged and persistent but the more you see it the more it will cause like wow and then whoo this is this is cool and eventually it becomes laughable it becomes like shit you know like show me the thousand ways in which you keep reinvading yourself on autopilot and i'm the present seeing it And, you know, it almost becomes like a sort of a play because the identity is somewhat, you know, the reference points may be arising in that dream when necessary.
You know, you speak with a tram driver or you speak with like whatever the in a grocery store. And naturally, the preconditioned language model will respond according to the necessity of the situation. And it all happens of its own. You're not doing any of it. But you can see how it works automatically. And you can see the brilliance of that game. And now as the habit of taking credit, this is me, this is I, weakens, it becomes like, wow, what a ride. And even when it gets trapped for a little bit and then it relaxes, like Peter was saying, you know, that it stays on, but I'm waiting till it doesn't hold on for that long.
See even that and just, ah.This moment right now is always unique and precious, whether there is a dream identity overlaying it or not. If you relax and pause and breathe out and see what is this unique present moment, the consciousness is never not here. You are never not present. And this is a foreground rather than background. You know, the mind usually steals the show and she's, oh, like Tanya was saying, just go with me, this, this, this. Attention is just scattered and is constantly looking for something. And what you said, you know, the lack of fulfillment, that is inherent. For the mind because its function is to improve alter modify correct it can never be satisfied bob would bring up the example of millionaire who is so worried about the money and never has enough obsessed obsessed obsessed and getting more and more greedy mind is designed to find more the algorithm that is designed to find more fails if it says that's enough it can't do it it is against its design it's only the present moment out of the mind back in the heart in the essence of existence where there is nothing wrong.
For the mind, it always could be. And you know what? That exercise that you did, this is really brilliant.and very relatable and I inspire everyone to just see imagine your best future and you whatever the money whatever the love everything and imagine that it is gonna be like this forever boring can't it can't be satisfying even the most like people who go into the law of attraction and imagine themselves to you know to attract all that stuff it can't be satisfying it is against the nature of that navigational system the only way out is out of the mind it's full stop back here to this moment and then see their antics and instead of being threatening they become funny they become sweet you don't change habits of the mind don't change the conditioning doesn't change is the presence of that light which make all those dark unconscious processes visible and having those processes visible without the what was it um preferences partialities and comparison you don't compare your processes with other people you don't take them partially and judge them you just see the wonder
of that structure from that space like awareness without you know mental uh processing whatever you feel is unique and precious if you compare it to other people how they feel it or they feel it shorter or longer or or this shouldn't be like this or you know bob wouldn't stay in that field ah that's more mind That is also beautiful if you see it as a pattern.
And it's innocent if you see it as a pattern. It's just another layer of computing happening. But the presence witnessing the computing is free from it. And you are exposed to the miracle of that. Of existence of explosion of that dream through watching that computation watching what your mind is interpreting doing projecting and wow this is how my predicament has created this is why the level of dissatisfaction is so high this is how it has been constructed is magic. Well, that's, yeah, I think I'm exposing myself to the pain too. Yes. Like I'm seeing how miserable I really am. Like, because I had defences against that and they're starting to fall apart as well.
It's like, Jesus, I'm a miserable...Son of a bitch, I tell you. Which, I mean, yeah. But it is. Like, that's been my construction, you know, from day one. So I gravitate towards the negative. So my thoughts are negatively geared from the get-go, you know. Wow. Yeah. But see, you have that humility and honesty and clarity about that. You're not in denial of your, you know, like grumpiness or misery. You see that. You bring it to the surface. And as you see it, you take the label off. You see how it comes into existence. It becomes like, wow. You see how the suffering is created. You know, like you want to be anxious, take future.
Wow, this is how simple that dream gets created through an act of just identifying with the arising thinking. And you can see thousand ways in which that suffering, that dream of misery is constructed. What an insight. Isn't it fascinating? Goodness, with that insight, you know, like the more you see, the more naturally, because it's revelatory, isn't it a revelation to see how you make, you don't do it, but how your own mind makes you miserable. By adopting those ideas, by believing those ideas, by focusing, strengthening them, by pulling that oil on the f***ing...fire so it burns brighter. What a revelation to be able to just witness that whole process.
Don't have to fix it, alter, modify it, correct it, change it. Be curious about it. It will show you even more. It will reveal itself even more. And then, wow, then you can be really, really helpful. And I think this is especially true in the spiritual circle. Suffering is usually the greatest motivation for inquiry. And the more of that suffering in the system exposed, because that exposure bringing the light into the darkness, it transforms it. Suddenly the same pain become a source of mind-blowing fascination. You see how it gets created. You see how the illusion comes into a play. And then you can't believe it anymore.And there are people who are in denial of it and they, oh no, I already got it.
And they stay miserable. No, no, but the belief is, no, no, I'm clear, I'm enlightened. No honesty, no humility. That's sad because there's nothing like, you know, 12-step program says there are amongst us those constitutionally incapable of rigorous honesty. Poor guys, for them we have nothing to offer. You're not one of them. This is beautiful. This is a call for celebration. Just having it exposed.I love, I was actually inspired at some point, I don't know, it may come strong again, to write a book. This was just maybe five, six years ago. I was laughing with Bob about it. Write a book, The Ways to Suffering.
How the human mind constructs the psychological suffering in so many subtle ways. It makes itself believe into that separation, into that misery. And it finds so many little tricks of trapping itself in that narrow cage of concepts. I've got it, it's one of it. Or I know better than you, or I'm right, you're wrong. Wow. It's just, it's like, wow, heartbreaking. It wants to make you cry. But at the same time, how brilliant, how simple.See the ways it plays in your system. You know, take a future. Wow. And how deeply it gets you to that point of, oh, God. No. Amazing. Give me some ideas.
Maybe I get that book one day. That's good. Yeah, but now I might leave here and think that I'm fabulous and that'll be... That's the other side of the coin, but yeah, no, that's good. Okay, don't do it. Don't worry, it doesn't last long. Can I laugh? Bring it on. Bring it on. Yeah, it doesn't last long. You laugh at it. Yeah, yeah. And that's not an imperfection, by the way. No. It's not an imperfection. There's nothing faulty about this functioning of this character in the story. It's exactly as the whole shebang is, as it should be. Because this, although it seems that this body is separate from the environment, it's not.
Everything is interconnected. So all the...thoughts that you see through, the feelings, the sensations in the body, all of that is exactly as it should be. You know, to say it's wrong or right or whatever is, again, a concept. But isn't it marvellous? See how the thought comes, I get, this place is like an oasis. I get relief when I come here. It's wonderful, but I know that when I step out the door, I'll be back to suffering. And your energy of belief goes into it. You believe it. But how wonderful is that? Because you believe that. You keep coming. Eventually you see that there's never any difference.
It's always, it's actually always there. You take it with you everywhere. You can't escape it.Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I like that. I like what Tanya said about right or wrong, and I love that you say that, you know, I'm a miserable bastard. I don't know if you said that, but that's where it came from. That's sort of whatever. Because I can sort of do the same things. What I'm hearing is a lot of, just today anyway, like the word non-duality doesn't exist. It's just a pointer. And dualism doesn't exist and it's just a pointer. And I had the same discussion with Kat about... Is it a faith?
Is it a belief? Is non-duality a belief? And for me lately it's been coming up that it's not. It's just something we live. And getting back to the wrong or right, I've started to see, and I constantly do this, is as a human being there's a battle to be right or wrong. You're wrong or you're right. You're a miserable bastard. You're right. You know, there has to be a right or a wrong. And that's what you were saying, Tandy. There's no right or wrong. You're not wrong. And you're not right. It's about it. I struggle at all my conversations. Most of the time when I have a conversation with someone, and I've just become aware of this, I'm having the conversation because I need to show you that I'm right.
Whatever I have.Like even now, even now I'm talking because I'm going to show you that I know something or that I'm right. I don't know anything. And I'm not right and I'm not wrong. And I think what I'm starting to hear is the investigation in this. Again, another thing I'm learning is needs. As a human, we talk about the cats and the dogs and the animals and the trees and everything. They know what their needs are. There's the beautiful white government trees that, as a tour guide, I used to teach people about it, was that they know what their needs are and they call it the widow maker.
Because the branches will fall off and the branches fall off because the tree goes oh look i can't afford to send water to this branch so the branch falls off so it gives it more nourishment to other things and as a human for some reason because of that right and wrong thing i'm finding is that We had to go to war. There's a war. It's war. There's just a war. So what I'm trying to say is that, like, I've got these workmen coming to this property that I've got, and they didn't turn up the other day. You know, I rang them at 12 or something, and they said, yeah, yeah, we're coming, we're coming.
Three o'clock they ring and go, no, we're not going to make it. And, you know, I went up there the night before for them to come. So I'm out in the bush walking and I am, I won't use the words what I was saying, but I was swearing my head off because these F and C's.Dear these F&Cs. I was ropeable. I was, and I loved the anger. I loved it. It felt so empowering. I was enjoying it. And then I said to myself, what need has it been met? What need are they supposed to meet for me? Oh, they're supposed to know that my home is really important to me and I need things done immediately.
They should have been done yesterday, not tomorrow. They don't understand my needs. Hold on. I don't understand my needs. It's still something I'm processing. When I get my needs met, when I meet my needs, I'm not making demands on other people. And I just heard something there about, like, there's the tram going by and there's people. We're all so angry. We're really angry. People are out there waiting for a tram and the tram doesn't turn up so they're really angry. You know, they get angry. Now the tram didn't turn up because the driver was running late and because the driver had to drop their kids off to somewhere and there's a whole thing of why something's going on but yet...
I'm an individual and I have needs and you should meet them. And it's just for me, I'm just sharing the beauty of coming to this point. Well, I've been doing this for 50, 60, don't even go there, we'll go back to 40. How did I think that's a lie?My imagination is a load of shit. But, you know, for so many years I've been angry. We're angry at the world, angry at friends, angry at dropping friends because they don't meet my needs. But no one teaches us what our needs are. So somebody is miserable, unhappy, jealous, insecure, vulnerable, all of those things. It's got nothing to do.
And it's so, I love it. Non-duality and dualism, I'm going to be dangerous and say it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. None of it exists, but it's pointers. And it's only the word that he's trying to point to it. So I love. That you two have been called witches and cows. It's superb. It's absolutely superb because it means nothing unless you put a meaning to it. Nothing means anything. And anyone who says it has a need. They have a need that hasn't been met. How divine. But we don't express it well. Instead of me coming to you and saying, I have a need, you're not meeting my needs, you don't have to meet my needs.
It's not personal. It's not personal. It's not personal. Nothing is personal. I just did it. I just shared earlier this morning or something. My husband said something to me last night. Boy, did it trigger me.I lay there and I thought, ah, you're dead meat, mate. You're not fair. You know, I don't like you. I don't like you. I even looked over when he was sleeping. I don't like you. And I loved watching it. And I didn't act on it. In the past, I acted on it. I'm going to have to tell you that what you've said has hurt me. He didn't say that to hurt me.
It wasn't personal. He was telling me a story. But I could take it that way. No, I don't. I don't want to take it. I don't need to anymore. That's the freedom. But I'm sorry to tell you, Ben, it's taken me 20 or 30 years. It didn't come overnight. You know, I love it here about actors and singers and stuff like that. They become famous at some stage, don't they? And then if you actually talk to them, you found out it's taken them 20, 30 years. They didn't become famous overnight. You know, it didn't happen. It's by osmosis it takes. It takes whatever it takes.
That's enough of mine. But did you ever? That was just beautiful. That was just gorgeous, gorgeous. I loved that so much.What came overnight? What didn't come overnight? What took time to arrive? What took time to arrive? That's true. That's the point. Point. We label things. We label it. You know, we label it. It should happen now or it's a label, isn't it? That's a good point. Oh. Oh. Actually, that... Presence awareness of presence presence awareness oh it's always that never not been always being and I think we're out of time awesome awesome I also I also want to just read those few texts few texts and yes that was a good story I love the part when you said that you know animals don't have to even know their needs the father in the sky knows that they have a need for food and shelter and it provides we don't even have to have elaborated stories of what our needs and other people needs we don't even need to go to the concepts about that staying in the present everything that is required to be known in the moment will arise out of nowhere and dissolve into the nowhere that was beautiful highlight you know when you brought the animals and nature that was beautifully clear andAnd I have just a very, very quick, Lindsay says, you mentioned before about how the ego creates delusion of grandeur and being awakened, but it also creates such stories around the opposite end of that same pendulum.
Same, same. Absolutely. That's exactly it. What creates the inferiority, creates the delusion of grandeur. They both the same, two ends of the same stick. They both being banned. That's where the freedom, whether you are superior or inferior, you are separate. Thank you, Lindsay. And James says, you imagined ego is the star of the movie you are dreaming. That's absolutely right. And Lindsay says, beautifully expressed, Kat, I noticed there was a place where I thought I had, and then that got accompanied later by I don't have it. And all the pain of that was defense strategy of the mind. Wow. How amazing. And Anthony says, like an oasis, it's a beautiful way of putting it.
Seems like we live in a world of lacking in water. Yeah, swimming in the ocean and longing for water. Of course. Yeah, of course. We are 90% water and the earth is mostly water, but we are one.the desert needlessly. Thank you, Anthony. And thank you, everyone.