This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
I see. He's live now. There's this option. I just opened up Zoom and it says non-duality with Seller Bob. Transfer from Bob's PC. And there's an option to transfer. What is it? I'm not going to touch anything, but just so you know. So now it disappeared. Can you do something about it, Peter? I'd love to help, but I'll need a bit of help to know exactly what it is. Are you talking? It's just gone.Oh, my goodness. Okay, so welcome everyone. This is another experiment. We just had someone on Zoom with us and needed to restart Zoom. So I'm just gonna send a message. Batteries. And there we go.
So, uh,Yeah, unfortunately, we are one or two generations too old to deal with the incredibly frustrating new devices and new streaming settings and go around all the different malarkey is there. But there we go. So we had someone on Zoom with us, but we had to restart. We'll wait again. And as of now, we could maybe start the meeting. If anyone is with us online, you're welcome to contribute. Ask questions and for now we're probably going to just start from the usual spiel if it let's go live okay we are liveAnd once we give it a spin. Do you know? Nope. Nope. Tanya, looking forward to hearing you, my dear.
Cheer. Cheer. It's you, I guess. There is no you. So actually on the last Zoom that we had with our evening group, which is mostly international European side of the... Of a group, we were looking at the ideas that can be quite confusing for the seekers, the hard, tough claims that Nisargadatta would boldly assert, there is no you, there is no me. What do you mean by that? That's bullshit. I mean, hello, I'm here. Yes, but what is here? Well, what is here? Now, let's look. You may say that the voice is sounding here, there is a sound here, there is a sensation, there is a perception, there is the whole world full of, filled up with a lot of, oh, there is someone coming.
Okay. Hi, welcome. We're not showing participants of Zoom, but yeah, she's got the camera off anyway. So what's here? Let's look what is here.how much that present content is really you. You know, like what's here? The sensations are present. Are you the sensations? No, you're not the sensations. You're the presence in which the sensations are being known. So, okay. Perceptions. body, mind, sound, sights, all those things are being present in the awareness. So if we say there is no you, or Nisargadatta would say that there is no you, it doesn't mean that there is no awareness. It means that you, the way you used to, through the conditioning, believe or think of yourself as, and what we usually associate the idea of me.
You know, when I say, oh yeah, I was in Thailand. So what was in Thailand? Of course, you know, the body-mind was in Thailand. Yes, I'm the body-mind. I was born this and this year. What was born? The body-mind again. So what is present apart from the body-mind? The body-mind is born, the body-mind is changing, is aging, is moving from place to place, is experiencing different perceptions, sensations, is knowing different things.content is aware of the content and by association and conditioning we believe this is i this is me i'm the body mind moving through time moving through space things are happening to me experiences are happening to me i am this machine this body mind suit experiencing whatever the world offers so i am this and the world is that and there is a separation so now this is when nisar gata says no This is not true.
This is the belief. You are not this body. You are not this mind. You are not the person. You are not what you think you are. You are not who you think you are. Thank you, Dean. Yes, we need him. That's just an image, just an association. It's neither the image nor what the image represents. Hey, don't do that.So when we hear the pointer, there is no you, it doesn't mean there is no existence, no presence, no consciousness, because that cannot be denied. You cannot deny the fact that there is an existence, there is a presence, there is a consciousness. But when we say there is no you or there is no me, there is no person as such, there is no separate entity standing of its own and running the show, that can be verified.
That is a tough claim that may be annoying, that may be causing anxiety or that may be causing resistance. But this is an invitation to investigate. Could that possibly be true? Or what could this mean? What is that point, especially if it comes from, you know, the... Nisar Gadatta, Bob or Ramana Maharshi or any of those big guns that we habitually are conditioned to perceive as very wise and very superior. You know, you may actually see Bob the same way, although Bob's incredible, incredible success rate with pointing came from the fact that he wasn't putting himself out there as a big and superior. So he was an ordinary bloke who would swear sometimes, use sailor's language, or repeat himself or forget things.
So he was just like you and I.When he says that the separate entity cannot be found, well, okay, if he can see it, maybe I can too. Let's have a look. There is no me. There is no separate self. But what is there? And what is there? We can point. What are we aware of is going to be... A perception, an object. I am aware of the body. So the body is a perception or sensation or the object in the awareness. I am aware of the thoughts, of the sounds. So they are, again, the perceptions, they are experiences happening. But what is there undeniably and i cannot be aware of because that's not the object is the awareness of presence is the presence of consciousness is the presence of aliveness so it is there But I cannot be aware of it.
I cannot say I am aware of awareness because awareness is beyond a possibility of observing or objectifying. It is not an object. In fact, it is the subjectivity, pure subjectivity. So I am that pure subjectivity. I am alive. I am aware of existence. I am present. I am conscious. But now what I am, how could I possibly say? How could I possibly define?what I am. I would have to ask someone else to define me, right? And then believe it. So others define me as the body, as the mind, as a person, a female, an Australian or Polish or whatever. That is the definitions that we take on board innocently as children because we cannot define ourselves.
We cannot physically or in any other way. It's frankly impossible to get out of yourself, to be able to write the boundary or to even conceptualize boundary. Because the moment you get out of yourself, what you are defining is not you. So defining yourself is absolutely impossible. It just can't happen. So we rely on definitions that environment, the labels that environment is teaching us and telling us what we are. And non-duality is attempting to override that mental layer of beliefs. That has been imposed innocently and looked at the direct experience. Instead of innocently believing the environment when it told me what I am, where are my boundaries and where are my limitations, I land back in that subjectivity and without theoverlay of labeling and conceptualizing and imagining, I try to experience my own being, my own existence directly.
So what am I experiencing right now? I'm experiencing content. But the experiencer or the experiencing itself is beyond the content. So if I am experiencing the sound of which the mind tells me that is 150 meters away, passing car or a passing tram, without the mind, without the labels, the sound is experienced in the awareness. And it is right here. I am the experiencing and within me the sound is arising. Within me that computer is arising, the telephone, those people, this room, everything is arising within me. The space of consciousness that I am. That is the direct experience. The moment I start labeling things, I say, no, no, no, I'm here.
And they are there separate from me. But without that concept, direct experience is. Things are arising in the knowing. The knowing is primary.and then the arising is secondary. So direct experience does not differentiate, does not divide. Even to say that this is content and this is the experiencing is already, just for the sake of pointing, is already a division which is unnecessary. In direct experience, you cannot select out the sound from the space. You cannot divide or differentiate the content from the experiencing. They are arising as one. The moment experience as a content disappears, the experiencing also disappears. You know, when you are tasting something, The tasting and something are not two.
They are one. The moment there is nothing to taste, there is no tasting. The moment there is nothing to see, there is no seeing. So the experience, the whole sandwich of the experiencer, the experienced and the experiencing, is indivisible, is just one, is just one spontaneous coming and going, arising, the breath of the universe just showing up, pulsating as a different texture, constantly dancing, changing, moving, just like the movement of attention. There is a sphere or place or space.of existence or being or awareness or sat chitananda or whatever the label and this is known directly right here right now this is the sense of i am very intimate very close very right here very present And within that space, there is a movement of attention, attending to the taste, attending to the sound, to the smell, attending to the division, to the mind, labeling, imagining, attending to the arising content, attending to the stories that come and say, no, no, no, wait a minute, wait a minute, my experience is different.
And everything else that shows up with it. So if you can land back and make that primary differentiation for the sake of pointing, of the seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, as a part of the field of existence and then the thinking the imagining the labeling the interpreting naming claiming adding the meaning and adding the story as a second layer covering this immediacy with the story about it, the immediacy of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling,and the story about it oh yeah this happened yesterday this means that i am still not there i don't get it i will get it in the future or maybe if i try harder all the story that comes on top so basic experience when you take the breath Get out of that head, back into the body, back into the groundedness of this moment, back to the heartbeat, to the breath, to the seeing, to the hearing, to the nothing wrong, nothing wrong with right now, unless there is a thinking, and nothing wrong with right now, even when there is a thinking.
But the thinking is not primary. The thinking is just part of the landscape. It is not a defining principle. It is not the creator of the worlds if it is deprived from attention.And then sitting in that primary experience of existence and being amazed by the arising, but not smite by it, not completely dis... What do you call it? Blinded by it. If there is enough of the free attention, of the curiosity, of that relaxed presence, still here, in that heart, in that here, And from that heart or essence or source of here, the arising is being witnessed, is being marveled at, is being appreciated or depreciated, whatever, whichever.
Even depreciation is arising. It is still part of the arising. Welcome. We had a couple of new people who joined us. I wonder if we can include them in the picture. Maybe not. Maybe we can put it here. What do you think? Oh, yeah. Okay. And if you guys on Zoom, would you like to at any point check in and, you know, like drop into a discussion and add?Unmute yourself or raise the hand and say something or ask something or elaborate on something or share your version because everybody is aware of their own existence. There is no one who can actually give anyone anything. Yes, Jane, come in.
Would you like some milk? Can you hear me? Oh, yeah, we can hear you. Hi. Yeah, same old question. Sorry for being boring. No, no. So there's some of the books say we were never born and we would never die. So when they're talking about that, they're talking about because we're all pure awareness, That's why we were never born and never die. That's all there is. All right? So that's at one level. Then the next level is we have the mind-body machine, and the mind-body machine is needed. It's the mechanism by which pure awareness... Can smell, taste, smell, taste, see, you know, the five senses.
Is that correct? So that's necessary for the whole picture. And then...So that's what you've labelled in the appearance. That's in the appearance. Yeah, yeah. So you could say that, you know, the awareness as a pure field of potentiality, pure space, dreams itself a body. Dreams itself a pattern through which it can experience and express, experience itself as a thing, as limited. So it's a necessary part of the whole picture, isn't it? One could say necessary, but, you know, it's... A big chunk of space that is existing around doesn't necessarily form, you know, the space, the form and the emptiness, they are mutually dependent, they're interdependent.
So, yes, it seems to be, it seems to be because there is a possibility for that pure field to experience itself and express the possibilities taken and experiencing an expression happens. To actually evaluate in the language of necessary, unnecessary, that's a little bit of an anthropomorphizing, you know, from the human perspective, you know, it might be necessary, but from the absolute perspective, it is just what's happening.whether it has to or it doesn't have to or it needs to, it's secondary. It is just what's happening. So why God wants to have eyes and face and body and, you know, why not? Oh, it doesn't have to, but it does because it can in a way.
It doesn't God have to have those, have that, have us in order to see it's good work. If it cares, you know, even the idea that God cares to see it's good work is a human idea. See, the human idea that there is a separate God that needs to see its own good work is, you know, it might be a helpful idea for the religion books and stuff. And the one that needs to have the mystery completely murdered and explained in the human terms. Is the mind and it thinks that it can get it you know but it can't really the explanation that says god needs to see it good's work yeah all right if the mind will shut up and get out of the way okay good enough just shut up and get out of the way but the truth is there is no separate god who created the universe.
It is all one field vibrating into shapes and forms, there is no God who needs to see itself because it is itself. So that explanation for the mind, which takes, you know, for anything to be explained in the mind, it has to be translated into dualistic language. Now the form and emptiness, two, right? Form, emptiness. No, they are not two. It is paradoxical and it is ineffable and it is ungraspable. How can you possibly say that form and emptiness are one and not two? You know, it's like reflections in the mirror. They neither exist nor they don't because you can see them, but you can't grab them.
So, or space, you can say, oh, there is a space. I can see there is a space. No, what you see is absence. There's no space. It's like form is a movement of energy. And the emptiness is the absence of movement of energy. So it feels like two. Energy, absence, movement. No, but it's just one. It's just like you have the binary code in the computer. You know, when the energy is flowing, the number is one. When the energy is not flowing, the number is zero. It's two, right? Zero and one. No, it's one energy. Either it flows or it doesn't, but it's one. It's one, it's not two.
So those explanations are really just for the mind to get out of the way and shut up. But it...They don't do the justice. They try to grasp the essence, but they fail because the essence is non-conceptual. It can't be grasped. No, that's, I mean, it's helpful. I'm getting wet there. I know there's nowhere to get. No, keep digging. Keep digging. I'll tell you one of the things that's been helpful about doing the investigation of am I really there? Is just to remove my name. And once, simply removing my name and say, just be now without the name, that really helps a great deal because there's not much there.
Well, there isn't, I can, I can, I, I experience what you're saying. Yeah. And you know what? We have a couple of messages here. Good morning message. Jyoti says, has issue with Zoom up today. So joining on Facebook. Sorry for that. Jyoti, maybe next time. And Sandy says, good morning. And Ben says, agreed. Fuck yeah. And Jenny says, Tad fam Asi, big love to all. And Ben also says, is someone recording this? This is a new spiritual treaty in non-duality. of itself keep going cut you know what you you're right ben it would be probably more reasonable to record on zoom than on facebook because it's gonna be better quality recording don't you think it is recording oh it is oh cool okay because you know the whatever is streaming is kind of yeah Yeah, but thank you for the reminder anyway.
And we're going to say here, Ben also says, my best guess is that God itself was egoless at best. Just fucking bored. That's another good explanation. It's just an explanation for the mind to shut up and get out of the way. But it never does the justice. Yeah. And the circle of mind, which you can't find, never shuts up. The trick, if you like, is to see through the very question. Yes, yes, yes. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Elaborate on it, Tanya. Okay, so where is the question arising? It's gone already. It's gone. It's a memory of a question that came up. And it's now another fresh question.
See that it comes up. It's gone. It's gone.And this is, as you were saying, that then this question comes up, but to whom is it appearing? Where is it being witnessed from? What point in the landscape, inner, outer, whatever, is the eye, internal eye, seeing the question arise? Look for it. And the question is not the important bit. The important bit is to look. To whom is that question appearing? And that's, and then, you know, who cares what the so-called answer is to this question.Yeah, that's beautiful and that's so important. The freedom is from the mind. The end of the search is the end of the seeker.
So as long as there is this urge, I gotta find out, I gotta find the liberation, the freedom from myself or the answers that will soothe that craving. Craving for knowledge, craving for oneness, that urge of wanting to experience the completeness for me. When you actually see that hungry ghost inside, that hungry seeker that always wants more, more more understanding more pleasure more fulfillment completeness who is it where is it because that is ultimate answer looking at that and see if there is really anyone there or is just that hunger thirstBecause if you can observe that movement of energy, I want. Oh my God, I want it so bad.
And just notice that intensity arising. And then, oh, where is it arising? Who is aware of that? And then see if that arising intensity, that craving for answer, for knowing, for completeness, for pleasure, if that's really you, if you can observe it.Or is it just an urge, you know, like craving for people with eating disorder will tell you, you know, craving for whatever, the handful of chocolate coated peanuts or, you know, any snack, just, oh, just give me something now. It's the same craving. Or craving for alcohol or cigarette, you know, arising and just completely stealing the show and causing so much discomfort that you just have to give in.
Who is giving in? It's no one giving in. It's just the craving is so charged that it perpetuates itself to those peanuts or that cigarette or alcohol or sex or shopping or whatever it is. The addiction to that sense of deficiency, I'm not good enough, I'm a person, I'm poor, miserable, little nothing, trapped inside there, who needs to find a way out and who needs to find respite for that horrible condition of being lonely and separated in a hostile world full of danger. And potential rejection. Is the same mechanism.If you see through the mechanism, now the one that sees that, Who is it? Is it ever bound?
The one who sees the anxiety, is it ever anxious? Witnessing the volcano of anger erupting in the body, knowing of it, is it ever angry? The space, the pure cognizing emptiness. Witnessing the stream of lifeput through those colored lenses of personality and appearing as anger, craving, craving for shopping or craving for knowledge and understanding. This is the melody that this particular instrument is playing. But the knowing of that whole conundrum, of that whole show, That one is always free. If any amount of attention from that craving can be relaxed, and see the arising of the questioner, arising of the desirer, and the identity straight away just being worn like this is me, this is I.
It's personal, I'm trapped here.any relaxation and then the mind will tell you yes yes i can relax for a moment i'll smoke that cigarette and for a moment i disappear What disappears? The tension disappears. But the presence witnessing the disappearance of the tension, that doesn't go anywhere. It's always here. What is always here and what is coming and going? The questioner, the question, the need to know, the need to find and add to myself, to complete, to release that horrible, horrible sense of uneasiness and existential angst, self-hatred, fear.What are they? Aren't they just phenomena arising in the cognizing emptiness in space? Endless medicating and a discomfort.
It's just, we know what it does, you know, like look at the history. People used to live in much more uncomfortable situations. They didn't have central heating. Bob, when he was born, there was no electricity. Sitting on the kerosene lamps and carrying water from the well outside. And of course, in the meantime, there was so much resistance to that discomfort that incredible inventions have been made. And what happened? Is the mind ever satisfied? Does it complain less? No, I tell you. When the temperature in the house is 23 degrees and not 22 or 24, it will complain. Resilience goes down. The baseline goes down. Constantly attending to that demanding fixer voice, seeker voice.
And giving it what it wants. Okay, I'm just going to go on team one more time and buy another hundred little things and I will be satisfied. No, you won't. You will just strengthen your addiction.You will just make that habit rehearsed to the point of mastery. Oh yeah, I'll just read another book. I will just sit in another meditation and do another 500 prostrations on midnight. And that will ease off. No. The I that wants to do all those things is the hungry ghost wanting to get fed. And through feeding that hunger constantly, it rehearses its power. It asserts its dominance because this is just a habit.
Tanya can tell you, you know, playing the musical instrument, the more you practice, the more it becomes your second nature. And we habituate it, treating that hungry ghost inside as the authority. The mind became a master. It's not a servant anymore. It runs the show, seemingly.But the whole attention, the whole free attention sucked up to that construct. And there is not much consciousness available to even see what's going on on a daily basis. Unless there are moments, you know, when the mind stops and everybody has those moments. Even if that's a moment of smoking a cigarette to release that constant tension that cigarette creates in the first place.or having those stuffing up your mouth.
The energy goes down for a moment. But they are organic moments. Organic moments when there is no mind. Moments when, you know, beauty is something that you can't help. But just pose and give space. Beauty is in the experiential realm is the equivalent of love in the emotional realm. What you find beautiful, you can't help but love. What you love, you can't help but find beautiful. So those moments of patting your pet or looking at the magnificent blood moon or mountains, the moments of no mind, they are moments when you are completely taken by the task at hand, when all the processing capacity is engaged.
There is no constructing of the miserable seeker who is constantly looking for something to fix or improve. You want to add something? No. No, no, keep going. I had enough. Come on, we have Benjamin says. He's got a lot. Okay, so we have a couple of things. My best guess is that, oh yeah, God was egoless. Division multiples, the one into the many.And woohoo, thanks for this cut, says Daniel. And Benjamin says, freedom is from the mind. Yep. The end of search is the end of a seeker. God fucking Adamson. And Benjamin also says there is no one, there is no thing, there is only the pulse or impulse.
Then it falls into a black hole that is us. This is the essence of non-duality. The who is the what and us the one. And he also says in the middle of a questioner and the questioned is the questioning. We are the ink. Yep, beautifully put. And we have the hand up here on Zoom. Go for it, Michael. Go for it, Michael.Is it volume you can? Yay. Yeah, I'm just a little bit away from it. Hello. Good to see you. Yeah, lovely to be here. So, yeah, so that's just playing with the idea of God. Bob used to say this. I mean, the Bible says, you know, God is all-powerful, almighty, all-knowing, all-present, right, all-present.
So if God's all present, then how can God even know what God is? But just playing with the idea of a God at all. You can't have a object and a subject to be known, so it can't be known. So if God were, playing with the idea again, all powerful, all mighty, and why wouldn't God split into everything you could ever possibly experience just to have the fun of experiencing God as what God isn't until he comes back to being God and then finally recognises what God is. It is playing with that idea. We can't know it with the mind because the mind is just not there.
It just can't do it. It's impossible. Yeah, good point. Bob would always highlight that omnipresence, omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, total presence. There is nowhere where God is not. God is behind your fingernail, in your garden, in your garage, even if you don't have a garage. Omnipresence.And yet, as you say, it is again the mind playing with the idea. Because if God is everything, there is no God. Because everything cannot actually assert or, you know, like if there is everything and there is nothing outside of it. You don't need that label at all. You know, like if everything is white, there is no necessity for the word white.
Because white can only be known from the background of that's not white. So if everything is white, there is no white. There is no God. There's no need. Yeah. Beautiful. I'm thinking of Curved. I don't know why I've Curved it, but maybe it'll make sense when it comes out. Like this guy back in the 60s did these experiments with mouse utopia, where he created this utopia for mouse. And they had unlimited food, water, comfortable temperature and shelter and no predators or disease. And he started with four male and four female mice, allowing them to do whatever they wanted. And they had lots of fun and doubled their population every 55 days.
But as the population increased, all the social structures began collapsing. So the dominant males become aggressive while weaker mice were unable to escape. Conflict and form stressed, overcrowded group.Some males became hyper-violent. Mothers abandoned or killed their young. And a group called the Beautiful Ones withdrew it completely, spending their time grooming and refusing to mate. And even though their resources remained abundant, reproduction stopped and the population crashed. The colony peaked at around 2,200 mice and eventually died out completely. It's like the mind to me. It sounds like the mind, but in a mouse community, it's amazing, even the community of mice. But it sounds like the mind gone crazy.
And see, you know, just as the word, the word, the sound, person, is just a sound. It's just a sound which you are not, you know, you are not born with. The concept of person. This is something that you, you know, the child says to its parent, what is a person? And the parent turns around and said, you are a person. I am a person. Your brother is a person. Your father is a person. Oh, oh. And then the idea of being separate forms or whatever. But just like person is just a word and theWord is not the thing. Mind is just a word. It's just a concept.
It's just a thing in what's happening. And it's not, even mind is not that, is not mind. It's just what's happening. It's a label that we use in the communicating to signify something about which there is an assumption that we all know what is being talked about.And it's, but what is your actual experience? This is the whole key about the investigation. What is actual experience? Is there isn't a spot or a place or a box or something with a boundary within that you can find that is mind? It's just a kind of a way of, conceptualizing something. Which is constantly changing, rearranging, coming, going, right?
It's just happening.There appears to be an awareness of this phenomena There is nothing more than a sky riding in the sky, a puff of smoke that just comes and goes. And instead of... Taking a look at how it's appearing, there is a seeming attention to so-called meaning of that puff of smoke and building whole stories around it. But what is your actual experience?I can't say anything about it. You're gone. Which thought would it be? Like, what is mine? So which one would it be? Which thought or bunch of thoughts would it be? You can't even nail it down, can you? No. I remember, I think, Jamie shared when he...
Presented at one point, but because I said something like, oh, the mind is very, it seems very powerful. He goes, well, it can be powerful. Like, it's just not. It's just, like, as you say, a cloud in the sky. It's just come and gone, and it's fleeting, and it's, you can't go back to it. Like, you can never, and just, yeah, so. Yeah, I get you. I love that. What bunch of sports would you be? You know, and where are they? And you come back to your meaning, or you create the meaning. So as you say, you make it mean that bunch of thoughts today or in this moment.
Yeah. Yeah. Which is gone. Which is gone, yeah. Yeah, Bob would say, you know, if you were to pick one thought, you would probably have to pick a thought, I am. But you don't say, I am, I am, I am, I am all the time. And when you go to sleep, that thought, I am, is gone also. And you are not.You can't be a thought. Because, you know, you were born without thoughts, without words. And the presence has to be aware of I am too. There has to be a space for the I am to pop up in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you can even play the fun game.
It's a kind of a fun investigation, sort of a twist game. Who am I now? And then it's gone. Who am I now? And then just go about, hmm, interesting. Who am I now? I'm a fixer now. Oh, I'm a seeker now. Oh, I'm an eater now. What am I now? Who am I now? Is the consciousness or is that pure field of infinite possibilities taking up the costume and playing a role? And in the same seeming bodily suit, it can play different roles. Moment to moment. Because there are different thoughts being transmitted, like this is an instrument and there are different melodies being played out of this instrument.
But what doesn't change? What you are. You're not that instrument. You're not the role that it plays. You're not the melody that is appearing through the words of it. You are prior, you are primary. Because the costume is changing, the expression is changing, the melody is changing. And you are the one who is seeing the change.ask who am I now and you see oh I'm this now or this now or this now or this now obviously you can't be any of those of those objects you see the change you are the changeless And we have, Benjamin says, meetings. We need to transcribe tonight, breaking new ground, all of us.
I love our beautiful minds and souls and all that were on before. Sorry for my profanity. That's cute. And Charles gives us the question mark. Charles, can you expand? And who am I now? A book in and of itself. Yeah, that's a metaphor. And being that book, you know, like... You are also the space in which the book appears and you are every little story on every little page on that book and you are also the white paper on which the story is written and you are also a space in which that white paper appears so you can't really you can assume the position And then as you see the assuming positions changed, the natural transcendence to the realization that you are that which is prior to any positions, prior to any assumed points.Jane, you on?
Oh, at the risk of saying something stupid again. So Nisargadatta, the whole, the centrepiece of his, well, of his team,
teaching, I suppose, is just, and which is what Sailor Pop did, of course, was just focus on the I am, the I am. And I'm assuming that his methodology was you start off, you, in ignorance and by just focusing on the I am, I am, I am all the time, that you, you, you've, those other things that you are at every moment fall away and then you realise that you are the all-pervading oneness. Is that that was kind of, that's the whole, thrust of what he was trying to do and what other great teachers were doing with the I am.
Yeah, go on. So the thought I am is not I am. And so what he was saying is like, stay with the sense of presence. And the sense of presence will reveal itself to itself as itself, as yourself, in and of itself, because that's all there is. So it's not like say, I am, I am, I am, because that's like a... The thought I am is not the same as the...sense of presence is just a thought is just a description of the presence awareness which is always there and by staying with it it's like it's just like freeing up attention just to be with the aliveness and and not be deviated and distracted and lost in all the all the permutations and combinations of the whole universe and whatever the mind tells you, but rather just be sort of fascinated and fully there with the sense of presence.
And the revelation is revealing itself to itself as itself, not to you, not to a different person. So there's nothing special about it. You know, the I am is not a mantra or some vibration that has something over and above by you just being presence awareness. There's nothing special about the vibration of that or whatever. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Nothing. It's Bob would say that, you know, the thought represents the certainty of aliveness, you know, that I am. How do you actually what's the closest that the mind can come? To express the miraculousness of existence, the beingness. How do you express, how do you translate, how the mind wouldput in words the fact of being or the existence.
Okay, the best it gets to it is the I am. That's the best it can do. It's not very good because it's two words, it's the I and it's M. It's not great. But because it's a dualistic, it's a symbolic language, it's a language tool, it can't do any better than that. So when we go back, we focus those two words, they represent that, ah, yeah, that what they represent actually. Yeah, there is a presence of consciousness. Yeah, I'm not dead. Bob would often reverse it and ask, are you non-existent? That's actually almost a better question because I am says I exist. But when he would ask, are you not being right now?
Oh. Shit. No, I am. Oh, now you see where the I am comes from. It comes from asserting the existence. But even if you don't say I am, existence is equally there. So without saying I am, you are closer to it, actually. Provided that the attention is actually there. That's what Dean was just saying. You know, it is to...Put the attention back into what the I am represents, the sense of existence, the sentience. Yeah, thank you. And yes, Nisargadatta would say that this will take you all the way back. In some of the Zen practices, it is to, you know, like focus on the emptiness or focus on the who am I question or focus on the answer to the who am I question, which is I don't know.
The mind that doesn't know is the mind that is no mind. Because, you know, like if you watch the mind, that's another of Bob's beautiful potent pointers, then you will see how it constantly try to language everything, process everything, make meaning of everything, organize everything. Yeah.Michael? Michael. It doesn't matter what you think of. Like you might say, well, I am big, you know, and compared to an ant, well, you are big, but I'm also small compared to the universe. So I am big and I am small, and I'm neither big nor small because you're really not either one. And, or I am both big and I'm both small.
I just that I am. And then I just the I and then beyond the I.It's just a practice of thought that takes you into that holding with two separate thoughts at once. And yeah, I can't remember where I heard that, but that's kind of neat. What is the word big? What is the word big? Yeah, but we're playing with the mind, right? Beautiful to say that. Yeah. You can't be either. You're not. You just aren't that. But it's nothing of its own. It doesn't exist without a reference. It's reference to something else, like time. So it just doesn't have its own realness. It's not a fire.
Yeah, it hasn't got any self-validity. It's just a... Like we say concept which requires words being and it's again another word and to represent what we we assume we all um identify with presence or being or isness or whatever does not require any sound to be made from the mouth or any attention on a so-called thought to be. It's just being. No thinking required, no conceptualising required.Prior to words, concepts, all of that, this is why searching for meaning, so-called searching for meaning, is not going to get you anywhere. Because you're... It's already there. That searching is happening in being. And not separate from. See that the searching, the question comes up and is not separate from the awareness of it, the consciousness of it occurring.
Well, I mean, you can't be that searching because it comes and it goes. And I'm always here. I'm always here.It's prior to words, prior to concepts, all the sounds, everything, just can you not be? You said something the other day, can't you? You said imagine, you can't imagine not being. Can't even imagine. Can't be done. Can't be done. Beyond imagination, beyond mind, non-existence. That's why people are so freaking out on the idea of death. Because beyond that, what's there? I can't even imagine. But really, who cares? You're not even going to be there to figure it out. Who cares? Yes, but what do you mean I'm not going to be there?
This is unimaginable. This is terrifying. But yeah, who are you? Who is going to be where and what for? That's, we have another here. Turia, says John. And Benjamin said, agreed. I am the who am I now book. And so are all of we. Let's form a committee. Also, I hate committees. It's on us to take Nisar Gadatas and Bob's words to non-duality 3.0. Let's do it.and grow it not dogma or religion but truth we get it let's make it better that's cool uh get out of here mind bro says ben yeah yeah like that's that's you know the the beauty of this incredible instrument let's get it let's encapsulate it let's upgrade it let's make it better don't we love it it's just such a cute you know magic trick if there is enough again of that free attention to just see the whole show see the shabang and enjoy itAnd that seeing is free.
It isn't bound in any way. So whether the shabang is going up or is going down or is dark or is light or is pleasant or is painful, there is always that field. Beyond the ideas of right doing and beyond the ideas of wrongdoing there is a field which doesn't mind everything is neutral if not neutral then it's amusing but it's but it's untouched And that is, I just lost them. Come on. I've seen the comment coming. Maybe it will show up again. Okay. Benjamin says, the goal is to die before we die, as the Buddhists might say. Yeah, die to that sense of self.
Die to that. Sense of self not the not the sense of presence because that is that is not on the menu like they say you know awaken to the dream realize that you're dreaming a dream called world nisargadatta would say and stop looking for the way out stop looking for improving the dream Dream is none of your business, he says. Dream is not your problem. Your problem is that you take sides.You want only pleasure and not pain because that is the mind that does that. The presence, the space doesn't take sides. It doesn't prefer pleasure to pain. That which does is the differentiating, fixing program, is the algorithm, is the narrative.
That is constantly negotiating the best conditions for the survival. That's not your essential nature. That is the algorithm that is overcasting, veiling the pure, non-conceptual, ever-fresh presence awareness that is right here shining of its own. self-shining and it is always here and then bob would say you know start from that start from the fact that you are you are you already are you can say you are that or that you are start from the fact that you are start from the fact that you exist or that you are that and that is everything that is every single thing we say that so now as you start from there all right i already am now what's the problem a thought always the problem is yeah but But what if?
But what if I get crucified? What if I get old and I lose all my money? What if, you know, my wife doesn't love me?She'll cheat on me or whatever else. You are already dabs or start that you already are. See what obscures it. And you will see that will always be unquestioned belief. But I'm limited. I experience myself as a body, as a person. I experience myself. I feel the existential angst, the sense of unlovability, the sense of I'm not enough. I feel it. I know that deep in my heart, I know that's true, that I'm shit, I'm failure, I'm not good enough. I know that.
Well, really? Says who? Look at that knowing, look at that deepest fear, that existential angst that is telling you that you shouldn't be here. There is something wrong with you. You are inadequate. You are not enough. Other people got it right, but you are just somehow left behind and you're not quite getting it. You're not there yet. You have to strive and try. You have to improve. What is it? What is that angst? Isn't that just another urge appearing in the consciousness? Isn't that just the same sort of urge that takes you, that tells you to go and dumble or masturbate or whatever is the problem, whatever is the solution?If you see that arising obstruction for what it is, then you see that the seeing itself, the pure seeing, is not anxious.
Seeing that doubting mind, what if I'm right? What if I really am a failure? Oh my God, you know, I can't just believe that I'm fine and stop improving. Hello, even that's not in your hands. If that narrative algorithm is calibrated to get better and better at playing ukulele or guitar or whatever else, that's not going to stop. It's a software, but it doesn't change the space, the pure presence that you are. It doesn't matter to the space, the pure presence that is already perfect. There's nothing wrong with that. It's already free. It doesn't need improvement. The body will get more skills, inevitably. Even if you don't try, even if you don't want to self-improve, it will still be going on because that's how the computer is calibrated.
Look at the animals and see how they find the better hideouts or better sources of food, even without trying. That's the nature of that biological machine.They already designed to survive and thrive. None of your business. The dream is not your problem. See what's the problem. Yeah, but I want more. This is not good enough. I don't want it this way. There must be the grand enlightenment, the huge liberation, endless ecstasy. That's what I want. Says who? And what is it, that desire for more, that rejection of the present moment as not good enough according to who? See how that mind brilliantly designed that algorithm of fixing and improving.
Brought the whole civilization, brought thousands of species to extinction, but brought a lot of comfort to the life of this particular form of humans. And it continually runs with that sense of inherent dissatisfaction, motivating for changes, fixes and improvements. And let it do what it is designed to do.Just see if that is really your essential nature, if that is really you, if that is who you are. Because if it's not, what problem do you have with complaining mind? Let it do its thing and laugh. We used to absolutely love. Finding little points in which the mind complains and just laugh. Oh, look at the weather.
Yeah, again, raining. Ha, ha, ha. Oh, we're not going to go out. Yeah, complain, complain. What else? What else? We had the ball with Bob, laughing at the mind, constantly finding things that could possibly be improved. But it wasn't serious. Taking mind seriously is the disease.and suffering. doesn't have to be this way. And yes, come on, Rohan. Hey, good to see you. Hey, Kat. Hey, everyone. Yeah, so just on that point that you said, not taking it seriously, what I found is when you're actually just sitting, so if you're sitting with that I am, that sense of presence, the mind can start to throw up a lot of crap because it interprets that as if it's dying and it interprets that as if I'm dying.
And so it starts to, in a way, like be even more violent in its actions. Or I'm not sure if it's just that there's more awareness of what it's doing, right? And oftentimes that when you're not sitting in that space of just pure presence, you're not aware that the mind is doing this, but whatever it is, you become more aware. And yeah, that can feel like, you know, it can feel like death. But it's not. But because we've taken that to be us, that sense of, you know, that thought pattern is me. So if that thought pattern is being deconstructed, it's like I'm dying. And so, yeah, I guess I'm sure that, you know, many of you have done that investigation, have gotten to that point.
So maybe just it'd be nice to know, yeah, how is it, where does that flip happen that you stop taking it?that so seriously and it's like ah that's just the same same old again and you're not not get you're pulled back by that sense of dread or sense of you know or death i guess How about finding a curiosity to actually witness its death? I remember Bob was saying to people who had anxiety in the investigation, anxiety would kick in. And he would say, you know, if you face your fear, then the death of fear is certain. Amplify it. Go right into it. Let it kill you.
Let it literally kill you. And you will be the presence witnessing it. And the truth is, it's not going to kill the body. It's not. It's completely unrelated. The worst that can happen is it's going to blow the fuses. You're going to fall unconscious for a second or two. But guess what? We had quite a number of people over the years who actually took that on. And followed it up and unison they all said mind is bluffing it's not even gonna take you to the point of unconsciousness it is bluffing i'm dying i'm dying i'm gonna die no no no we have to stop right now no and if you stay there one second longer than you can you will blow its bluff And youI'm married on the other side.
Oh, shit. You know, look. With or without the mind, I'm still here. What's wrong with right now if I don't think about it? Nothing. I'm here. So, okay, the mind is threatening. Okay, the liver. And it's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. Just if you can find more of so-called earnestness or love for the truth, or I like to call it curiosity, but that's just my word preference. Nisargadatta would say earnestness, love for the truth is also, but just... So let it kill you. Show it. Take it all the way. Amplify it. Put it like, ah, just, and see what happens. The worst that can happen is a couple of seconds of unconsciousness, but it never happens.
Even that, even that, the deepest, the most profound, terrifying panic attack.And it shifts. No death. And yet, because the mind, they say, you know, like I think Ben was saying here, that die before you die. Ben also says, you exist. There is no me. Let my wife cheat. I'm great. Yeah, so Ben was saying before die, before you die. So that's what Bob would often quote as some trance is die before you die. And then you will find out that you are the eternal life. You are the aliveness itself and what dies is not you what is born and what dies is not you see the thought is born and the thought dies and you are here to see the birth and the death of that thought but really is that a birth and death isn't that a little bit of an exaggeration You know, coming into existence, the rainbow, is it born or is it dying?
Or the idea of Santa, was it really born? Did it really die? You know, that mind drama created and blown out of proportion. Death, I'm going to die. What was born? Did it really? Was it really? You know, the language model got programmed at some point. The shift of identification happened. You know, the little red mark when they say that the asswith the body happens, you know, actors will tell you, they associate with the role they play. And there is no birth of Macbeth and the death of it. No, the whole idea of the ego death or death of the mind or death of identification, it just sounds so dramatic.
Nothing so dramatic is ever happening. In fact, the moment of so-called awakening or perhaps awakening to the fact that there is no separate self is the most uneventful and non-dramatic shift. It's just like relaxing. I think Tanya was bringing up the example last week, a little example, when you realize that you were wrong about something. Or you realize you walk out of the house and you realize, oh, shit, I forgot the key. I have to go back. It just dawns on you. And you are rushing, rushing, rushing. Shit, I'm going to be late for work. And then someone says, hey, but it's Sunday. That's how uneventful the moment of shift.
And then suddenly, oh, wow, I'm still here, but I'm not that mental construct that I was so densely attached to and relating everything to it. No, there is no death. It's just realization that that narrative is not who you are. It doesn't even need to die. It will go on. The narrative, it may have long stretches of silence, but it will still, you know, unless there is brain damage or stroke or something, you know, it will still remind you the shopping list. It will still hum the melody. But who cares? It's just what it is designed to do, just like your stomach will keep digesting.
Is the association, is the belief that this voice is myself, this is who I am. Only that belief is just, and it doesn't die. Because belief doesn't have any life. It borrows the life.I love what you said about I'm not this voice, right? If you're paying attention to your own voice, listen to the sounds coming out of the mouth, recognize that you're no more the sound coming out of this mouth. Then the sound's coming out of that mouth. It's just occurring and there's just a discovering of the sound that's coming out of this vessel, mouth, this seeming person, but no more in control of that than I am of sound coming out from there.
Or from there. Or what's happening in the background. Yeah. And it's the same with seeming thought. They're not your thoughts. Exactly. You are no more in control of the thoughts that are arising than you are apparently here than you are there. And you couldn't give two shits about thoughts coming up there. Right? And they're just being discovered. Right? And there isn't a whole lot of planning. I mean, see it for the truth of it. There isn't a whole lot of planning, strategy or anything leading up to what the sound that's coming out of this mouth right now.It's just being discovered. And the so-called belief that you're in control or I'm a person directing the choice to say this word, well, that's the illusion.
Find that person. Gosh, wow. Oh, but, you know, it is just imagined, imagined. It's purely imagined that you are that actor voicing those words in that role that it's just... Something that comes on and off, another thing comes on, off, on, off. I think it was Jane was saying it's helpful to not refer to yourself as a name. Yeah. Or alternatively, you are a billion, trillion, million names. It's a new name for you seeing every single moment, right? Because you're never that person with that name. You've never been that person with that name. It's constant. What's happening with this body, what's coming out of this mouth is constantly.
changing. So, you know, version one trillion and one in this moment, version one trillion and two. It's not complete nonsense.to think of yourself as something stable. That this appearance, the story, as I am that story. Because the concept of what I am comes and goes constantly shifting, changing. Which one are you? Yet, there is a knowing that being is always here. And the brilliant trick, the way the whole illusion is sealed, is the illusion of control. Not only I'm here, but look, I have to run the show. I have to run my life. I cannot stay in a phone box or not go to work.
I cannot relax because somebody has to pay the bill. Come on, somebody has to look at the children. Wow. There is somebody there who's got so much to do, so much responsibility. My God, how can I possibly relax and be the space? And who's going to do that? The world is going to fall apart. If I stop squeezing my butt, the whole thing is going to just, shit's going to hit the fan.That's how ridiculous it is because there's no one there running the show. There's no one there that is in control. You take one decision that you think you made and you just step back in that point and see if there was really, really any other option.
When you see, oh no, there was five options. And I was thinking, which one? Thinking, which one? You weren't thinking. Those options were showing up in the awareness, already emotionally charged, leering, which one is going to run the show, which virus is going to steal that body and do its own thing. You, it's no saying there was no you there. To actually have any choice, any saying. When you say, yes, I can choose whether I'm going to meditate tomorrow morning or not. You are not. If the thought to choose doesn't arise, then you can't think it. The thought to choose will arise through the environment.
Someone has to tell you that. It may come from the conditioning or from rehearsing or from inner programming. It has to come from somewhere. You don't think it. There is no you to think it. This is self-organizing universe. I think we have some. Benjamin says, or the realization thatOh, shit, that was not me. Yes, and the mind is a good thing. It keeps the body going. It is an empty shell. But ultimately, we are an empty shell and we are one. Surrender to that if you've got courage or balls or the guts. Surrender is a good word too. You know, like if there is anyone who believes that, and this is also what very often people are resonating with or looking for.
Yesterday I met a young man on the street who was living in a, I mean, he wasn't, I met him on the street, but he wasn't living on the street. He was living in some sort of a community where he was hoping to meet. A man like Ram Dass possibly who he could surrender to and have that man tell him what to do, how to live his life, when to meditate and when not to, just to get out of his own mind, get out of his own agency. Well, that's not quite the way. But that's the way life may want to experience and express itself.
Surrender to some guru and then you will just find out how much this guru will gather girlfriends, Rolls Royces or whatever else. And then perhaps you shake it off. And perhaps there is sad guru in there, but not the voice. Not the voice of the man, not the voice of someone else.not the voice of my own narrative, but there is a stillness underneath all those voices. That is what it is to surrender to. The life force that is completely, completely running the show. You don't even need to trust it because whether you do or you don't, it will continue running the show. It will continue moving the planets and continue the sun to shine.
And it will continue self-organizing in every possible way, including AI or any other forms of life essence. Manifesting as some movement of energy. As Nisargadatta says, surrender to self. Yes, self as the field that Benjamin was saying, the field of life, beyond the ideas of right doing in a song of Kamisha or poem of Rumi. The field is as good of a word as space or emptiness cognizing emptiness uh i think we're getting and we didn't hit here tony let's just say a couple more i don't know everything you're saying it's quite beautiful so It resonates. It's resonating. All of you guys.Thank you. So I guess, yeah, we're going to thank you guys, unless any of you want to say something.
Yeah, I want to say thank you. It was brilliant. Great question. I'll give you a clap. Yeah, we can see it. Thank you. And great questions, yes, and keep questioning. We love it. See what the conversation starts with. Great. Really important. Just as important as the so-called answer, right? Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Thanks, everyone. Bye.