This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
And as of now, we're just gonna probably, yeah, just push it somewhere here. I can watch it from there. Oh, yeah, that's, can you? Yeah. Okay, cool. Yes, so, again, we are streaming live now, and welcome everyone. And we have Kat, Tanya. Jimmy. Jimmy. Anthony. Anthony. Dan. Dan. And... And Dean. Oh, that's right. And Jane. And Jane. And Wes. Hi, Jane. Hi, Wes. Hey. So, who knows? Maybe if the situation will repeat itself. For the last couple of weeks, we were supposed to have no participation. No human participation apart from the technical support. And somehow the participation is happening. So if there will be people who actually want to keep the meetings going live, we may really try and do it again.
Because as I mentioned before, for a couple of months we had just one person coming. So now there's a few of us and last week there was a few of us. Yes. Yes, Jane? I've got two things going. I've got Facebook and Zoom. Which one should I close down? Because they're echoing. There's some coming. Close Facebook and stay with us. Okay. Yes.Okay, magic. So, now we can actually just start from a quick introduction to non-duality. And the invitation is always to the group. Anyone would like to give us a start up, throw a few pointers together, show us how it flows through you because everyone is clear that they exist.
Everyone is clear they are conscious. So there is no one who knows that any better than you do. There is nothing else that you need to know apart from that. And just from the groundedness in that certainty of existence, you may see what are the consequences, what else is obvious. And it's always a good invitation for anyone and everyone to actually see how it flows through you. And Jane and Wes, that's the invitation for you as well, if anyone would like to start us off. Done?One of the pointers that's been really resonating with me lately has been the pointer from Nisargadatta, I am unborn. And that has somehow really struck home in this sense of everything that is appearing is going on without any need to intercede.
And there is this lovely resting back into this sense of no need to do nothing wrong. No need to imprint any sort of preference, any...individual need to change. But just simply to rest in that emptiness, that emptiness, everythingness, as it continues to kind of flow. And just the words of Unborn. I think I'll put the mic closer because you speak very low, so you just speak up a little bit.We're always getting drawn, the attention getting drawn into what's appearing, all the phenomenological world. The attention, it grabs onto it, it grabs onto it. But as soon as you just relax and rest, and it keeps on flowing, you realize, oh, Y, Y grab.
Beautiful. Y grab, Y attach. This lovely continuation. And the peace, the peace that arises from that.So non-duality, what is non-duality? You're experiencing it. You're experiencing the oneness of non-duality. One substance not two. There can be this, the popping up of certain ideas that are a bit delicious. That, that, mmm, that's a tasty morsel. And you can feel, mmm, the attention drawn. But if you just allow that to flow without narrowing down. This wide sense, why get rid of any of it, why change anything? It flows between, I think this is a beautiful, lovely quote. Love and wisdom. Everything and nothing. You knew exactly what I was going to say.
Yeah, in love I am everything. In wisdom I am nothing. Yes. It catches us from trying to go, oh, just close down on I'm nothing. Okay, I'm nothing. And then that's the kind of sweet and delicious. But then it, oh, but I have to push everything away. And so in that capturing of the love of everything. Oh. I know. Flowing between it.It's just, it's a lovely antidote to wanting to fixate. Wanting to finish, what's the latest idea that's really capturing. There is this feeling of that trapping attention. Yes. It traps attention. Whatever's exciting, whatever's the latest thing. And then it traps. Yeah. Oh. So it's flowing between the two.
Flowing between the two.So allow it to arise, allow the clouds to come and go. Without having to trap the attention. Does that make sense? Beautiful, beautiful. Just be present to the flow rather than take a position as No fixed positions. Yeah. Yeah. No fixed positions. Because that which is aware of the movement of attention is still. Right. And that was where that unborn, the stillness of the unborn, that's where that lovely pointer. Yes. And try not to fixate on a metaphor and tell it like, you can allow it to break down, but not in a way that you're like, oh, that's untrue too. There's a kind of melancholy about that.
Oh, it doesn't really work. So you kind of just, no, no, no. It's lovely. The finger pointing at the moon. The finger pointing at the moon. I'm going to bring it a lot closer because no one sits here.So it's just, just allow, just breathe. Just breathe. And then notice that the breathing's happening anyway. So that's what's been this flow between those positions. That's what's non-duality in this moment. That is lovely. We have Rohan joined us as well. So any of you guys would like to add something or throw the pointer to the mix? Or is someone else coming? Can you share? I mean, my system's telling me that you've not turned up.
Sharing is not turned on. This host isn't allowing sharing for this meeting. We can hear you. You're with us. Okay. Yes. Well, that might further to... That was just beautiful. I've forgotten your name. Done. Done. Done. That was beautiful and so well articulated. My issue, enduring issue, is... Is the resistance and the trade-offs, sort of stepping down a little bit when you're busy in the, you know, the here and now, is what is, what's, What do you call resistance?And what do you call, I understand the way you're expressing it, Dan, but just in everyday life, you don't want to be walked over. And I do want to go with the flow of the river.
But, you know, just interactions with... You know, on a day-to-day basis, is when When do you just, you know, let somebody walk over you and just say, oh, well, they'll do what they do. You know, they'll build a three-story, you know, set of flats next to me. And when do you fight? So that's a big, that's quite a big question to me. That is a beautiful question. That is a beautiful practical question. And on the bottom of it lies the assumption that you can choose your response to the situation, that you are the separate person having the capacity to choose your thoughts and choose your actions.
So if you have a look, you know, someone is building a block of apartments and then the urge comes to fight it. And then where is that coming from? The urge to maybe type an email or to maybe stand an object or maybe contact the council or politicians or whatever. And there is another urge coming up. No, maybe I'll just leave it as it is. Maybe that's none of my business. Maybe I can't do anything. Those thoughts boiling up.causing potentially this action or that action, where do they come from and what control do you have over those thoughts? That's the main question. Because you can see, and even if you watch your life back, you can see how certain responses are environmentally induced.
If there is a support or if there is a chance for the action to be successful, the urge may come really, really strong and the action to fight may come equally strong and the fighting may happen and winning may happen or not. But in other situations, the environment dictates retreat. And how much of the free will choice of volition do you have? Which response is going to arise into that always ever-changing environment?Yeah, good point. I just, just, I'm not to do it, so just business as usual. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, all right. And then be absolutely mind blown, open, curious and fascinated. By discovering the response moment to moment.
Discovering, oh, am I going to fight back? Let me see. Woo, fighting happens. Oh, now there is deflation. Let me see. How long is that going to last? Wow, that's a ride. Because you're not the doer. You are the presence in which the response is arising. The response is being revealed. The response is being revealed. Yes. Just watch the show. Yeah, it's being revealed. You don't have to have an in-depth understanding of why it happened the way it happened. Just knowing that it couldn't be any other way. Yeah. What happened in this seeming spontaneous moment is the sum of everything that seemed to come before.
Yeah. There's nothing else. You're not choosing an outcome or a path as an individual. It's just being revealed.The eye experience, and you said it really well, you know, about dropping the illusion of being a doer. Yeah. You know, I found what was quite beautiful is how you were describing it, and you had said awareness of... The attention. Yes. It's still. It's still. The movement in stillness. Yeah. Seeing the movement in the space of stillness. Yeah. And allowing. Yeah. It's a bee.Yeah. Even that's being revealed. Even enjoying it. I know. It's beautiful. Yes. Yes. But where? I'm getting stuck. That sticks me. And like a pointer for me is from the place from which it all comes.
And I experience the stillness. Yes. There's times when I'm more present. There's less experience of attention. Where I can detach and relax, where I find myself, where it's revealed, it's revealing my detachment, a detachment and relaxation.in the space of seemingly Losing one's... Awareness in attention. Boy, I'm trying to find the words to make this right. We do, right? Yes. It does occur that Things rise before us.And there are options as the dream unfolds before us. And it does occur as though a choice. Yes. But it may, in fact, it may, in fact, like there's conversations around it. We were talking about this this morning that it almost occurs semantics in a way that I'm just simply not using the right words because the words actually trigger a different conversation.
Uh-huh. So...Through being aware, I've had experiences where Life will reveal itself and I see the options that are available and I have acted in an option that has best benefited my experience within the dream. Irrefutable. And I've made decisions that have not benefited. My experience in the dream. Can you see the same in nature? With the eagle and the mouse and the kangaroo, you know, jumping in front of the car and being hit and killed, still trying to do the best.See that they couldn't have, they, the scene couldn't have gone any other way. Yeah. Because the, because every scene. Isn't that just making sense out of the obvious?
Yeah, well, it's obvious. Like, like, like, like, almost like, okay, well, it's raining outside, so be happy that it's raining, you know. You can't do anything about it. Exactly. So what are you going to do? Chill. What are you doing? It's a dead end. Surrender. You're up against a wall. There's nowhere to go.Noticing that preferences arise. Preferences arise. Yeah, yeah. No, I get it. It's all clear, but the thing is... And also, that at times you'll be aware that preferences arise. Yes. And at times you won't. And I think that's what you're saying is there's sometimes contact with that sense. That I'm allowing this to unfold and at times there's not.
Because there is a qualitative difference of one's experience in life of where the character has reacted in an automatic way of being and there's another one of evocative expression and qualitative existence where You know, we go to school, we study for the test, you pass the test, you don't study, you go out drinking with your friends, you fail the test, right? Is there a choice being made? Is there, you know, so that's where it's like, It kind of... That's a hard conversation to support. Yeah. And it kind of messes with you in a certain sense, from the individual sense. It messes with you kind of like, how do I understand this?
And I feel in so doing...Yes, I understand that. And that is the attention that's taking where you lose yourself from how it's all occurring. Right, right. I understand. It's not that I don't understand. And that also... You cannot create the drawing back. Things will draw and there will be attachment. And at times there will be fall back into the witnessing position. And neither is preferential but... From this sort of perspective of, no, but I want to be drawn back. I don't want to be drawn into. And so it's this kind of dual place, if that makes sense. Like someone asked Nisargadatta, well, what's the difference then between you and that?
If you're saying we're all that way, the Buddha would say, We're all body sub-bars. They say, well, what's the difference between you and me? That I know it, and I'm in constant awareness of that knowing, and you're still questioning it. One way of putting it. But that you can't manhandle that knowing. Yes. That it will occur. Yeah. Or not. Yeah. And that's what kind of like wrestled.Is that my answer? Yeah, completely. Yeah, that's a good way of answering the question, because there are so many different ways of actually bringing up that the difference between realized and unrealized is only imagined. There is no difference. You exist, Nisargadatta exists, Ed, allegedly, in the memory.
But yes, the presence or absence of that veil of doubting and clouds, well, it is a significant difference in the experience of psychological suffering, and it doesn't have to be there. The moment the realization is that even the preference is just a movement in the stillness. The preference arising is noticed as much as the options arising, as the actions, as the urges, desires. Everything is arising in the screen of consciousness, the presence that is still. And you are that still, already relaxed, already free, just pure existence. And then if the thought comes, yes, but you know, when I think this, that means that, and suddenly there is an investment that, you know, that thought is important, this is me asking that question, hello, you know, if I have that question answered, I'll finally relax.
But the I contained in that question, It's an illusion. There is no one there. And I think we have...Oh, wonderful. Her own. Yeah. Tell us. Hey, everyone. Hey. I guess this is kind of a question. So you mentioned, you've said it before several times as well, that when... Yeah, when there's just that witnessing of what's happening and when you see the phenomenon, you can be surprised. You can say, oh, I didn't know that reaction would come up. But I guess what I'm asking is, does there come a point where even those, the phenomenon doesn't interest you anymore, right? Because you're so... Caught by the stillness.
Because I just remember one of Nisargadatta's quotes where he says, for me, the world is like an iridescent drop in the vast ocean of consciousness. So for him, it's as if the world was such a tiny part of experiencing or the reality that it almost as if it wasn't there. So I guess the question is, is this kind of, you know, where you take that witness position and you're just watching everything and being surprised, does that eventually turn into the fact that actually this still point is far vaster and far more beautiful than all the movement and the phenomena. So from experience, I guess I'm asking anyone who's kind of sat in that for a while, is that what happens?
Beautiful question.It's a beautiful question, but again, see, it assumes that in the future there will be something different or something better when I will not be preoccupied with the world. While I am not preoccupied with the world, life attends to itself. The stillness that I am is never preoccupied with the world, even if that body-mind or the cat character is yelling, screaming, running, doing whatever the dream character does, there is still that completely untouched, unoccupied stillness. And it's not in the future. It is already present right now. It is already present in Rohan. It's already present in everyone.is now. Can you see that, you know, again, if you look at the animal, you look at the cat, let's say the cat is chasing something and then the something has been chased or caught or the chase or
or it escaped and the cat is lying in the sun and is not preoccupied with whatever it's been chasing.
In the moment of chase, the presence, the existence hasn't been touched by the chase. The body was chasing, the existence was untouched. There is always that pure untouched being, knowing, loving to be that is never affected. And the body, mind, the responses are affected. I don't know if any one of you would like to add something or answer something else. Dean, I've seen you smiling. You guys are funny. Okay, so tell me. I've got nothing to say, but I'm a little more...No? Okay. Tanya? You pointed to the... Yeah, oh, go, go. No, if you just pointed to the Zoom, then it takes care of everything.
Okay, takes care of everything. This question, it's a beautiful question. It says, how will I be when I am better, different, changed, improved, empowered? Realized in the future because with the way Nisikadatta is describing his individual experiences not what I experienced first of all there's no there was never any Nisikadatta having an experience yeah that's that it's always life so the question is better put is How is it? What is the actual experience you're right now? Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's what you want to know. Forget about what it's like over there, over there, over there. All that is nonsense. You are older than that. How is it actually, what is your actual experience?
I feel like there's an element of the changing states and what will the state be. And a preference to certain states. So when I experience what Nisargadatta said of being a drop in the ocean andyou know, that I would like to have that state. And how do I get there? Because I'm not there already. Because I'm not there. And I'd like to be there. And so this can't be right, what I'm experiencing. What you said, Tanya, of what is happening right now. It also, perhaps... Has this sense that what Nisargadatta said was not a changing state. And at another moment he might not have just been having a cup of tea and seeing the people and the room around him.
And that also, he just says it should be. And if I'm doing that, then that can't be right. I want to be the drop in the ocean one. I want to exchange that out. Because maybe at times, I'm not sure if some of you, it's really interesting, these different frame states. So the waking dream, when you're dreaming at night, and sometimes it becomes lucid. And then it's like, well, you know, after a waking to the waking dream, it's like, well, is that really a state too? That was pretty cool and exciting. And there's a, once again, a juicy attachment. Because, wow, I was in a universe full of unicorns and bubbles or whatever it might be.
And I would like to get there. They said that some people seeing Avatar had a real...melancholy about the world after that because they were like that world looks so beautiful I wish I was a giant blue giant too and living tribal I have such an affinity with that way of life that's me that's who I really am I must have been that in my past life or something you see the whole story It's created there. That's how it should be. Oh, wow. There's nothing wrong with that. But it's like when there's a looking to the experiencing or it's described of others, well, that's a denial immediately in a way of...
What's the most key important thing is what's happening here right now.Forget about all that other stuff. It's enticing and beautiful and it's wonderful. They must know something I don't. It's the biggest lie of all. Something that's sort of shifted for me, there's a lot of like, I am-ness, but in duality, it's like the world's happening, but I've got this presence here. And there was that separation. But recently it sort of shifted a lot. There's I am-ness.And still using language, there feels like there's a duality, but it's like I'm held by that I am-ness, that there is only I am-ness, rather than like a separate entity being present.
Presence is all there is. Just being able to surrender and let go more and more. To what is. There's a real beauty in that surrender andthat piece, it's hard to articulate. Pass it all under the sun. Yeah. Because as soon as you start to talk about it, Yeah, you're trying to capture something that is uncapturable. Yeah, I felt knowing or love.and allowing that to sort of be and you know, resting in that more and more, allowing it to sort of overflow into the world, so-called world. This is something that's been sort of shifting and happening in my world and my experience, but at the same time, even within that duality the whole time, there was always this experience of peace and stillness watching it all.
But yeah, just layers or misidentifications just slowly being seen through.Beautiful. So it's kind of more and more of the experience of letting go of the illusion of control and surrendering to the whole control that the life unfolds. Illusion of your own agency and just flowing with life, just dissolving the boundaries into that flow of life. Yeah. Beautiful. And Rohan, go on. Yeah, sorry, I didn't know who just spoke. Jimmy. Jimmy, that was beautiful. Because something that I've been noticing here is that the wanting to be still and want this there's something here that wants to sit still and observe the awareness and it's like okay but then you know now that's that's again me trying to do something but when you just said about that dissolving away that was yeah that was phenomenal like just to The whole point is to see that there is no me that's wanting to do that.
So even the surrender can't be I'm surrendering. Because then I've surrendered, but my life's still shit, what's going on? It doesn't work, come on! Give me a better method to control my life! Yeah, no, that's actually, that was great. Yeah, that was beautiful.Any one of you guys would like to, Javi? Oh, yes. Go on. I haven't got a little hand to put up. I don't know where that is. Oh. Anyway, I mean, I guess one thing that happens when you do let go is more wonder. Yeah. The wonder grows.Lovely. That is a beautiful observation. Yeah. And it's inevitable. Inevitable because what actually, what somehow, what you call sabotages the sense of joy and wonder in life is the illusion of agency and control.
Yeah. It's the stress, the importance of little things that are happening by themselves. And it's a frustration coming from the incapacity of influencing or controlling them, which is naturally... Naturally there because it's not the way of doing anything. So the sense of wonder coming from removing that illusion, dissolving that veil of doership is inevitable. Suddenly the whole attention lands back in this beautiful luminous present moment and it's the attention is freely available instead of constructing the entity constructing the sense of importance and urgency now the seeing hearing tasting touching smelling all present and Wow, there is a subtle joy in even embodiment, in the current breath, in everything.product.
But that's good observation. Thank you for bringing it up. It's always nice to highlight. Good news. Have you ever woken up from an intense dream and zombie apocalypse? No. Woken up and for, you know, first instant there is this, the terror is carried over into the waking state. And the next instant you go, oh, fuck, it was just a dream. And all the terror that you've got just goes, Yeah.It's okay, nothing's wrong. That is, yeah, that is the moment of realization. Yeah, it's a good metaphor, really. And we have a comment here on the screen. A giant reaction, emojis everywhere. Menu button, bottom of the screen.
Okay, thank you, JS. And Michael says, oh, check the icon. Oh, yeah. Yeah, thank you for being helpful to each other. That's always helpful. And if any of you just unmute and speak, we will hear you. The group is small enough, so we don't really need to have much of complicated structures at this point. Hi Michael. Yeah, hi. Hi, hi. Yeah, would you like to say something? I'd like to start something that Tanya said, which is really confusing, I think, well, had been very confusing for me in the past. I can't get it now, but it might be confusing for a lot of people listening.
And that is a Nisagat Kedar doesn't exist. And that because we all have an experience of this moment coming up with a history of a potential future or it's all happening now. So I get exactly what you're saying, but I think that's still extremely confusing in terms of accepting that we have this shared...seem to have this shared reality in which all this is happening. And so, and we all, even within our own heads, it's completely wrong what my view of your shared reality is, what you, what I project you might be experiencing is probably completely 99% wrong anyway, but There is a seeming shared reality, but a shared experience and history that comes into this moment.
And so just curious as to whether you can expand on that a little bit more, like where your own experiences of that is. Like how do you, because if you take that away completely, There is nothing. Yeah, so there is nothing. So that's the nothing. And yet there's this. So I think it's very confusing. So I'd love to hear other people's views on that. Like how do you reconcile?I agree. Completely. And then the future. Beautiful. Go on, Tanya. Good night. Very practical. So let's use Bob as an example. Yeah, he's like another Bob. Let's use Bob as an example. So Bob was always saying, the word is not the thing.
Bob was never Bob.He was just that, as it appeared. And that's not semantics. It's because... We use words like person, tree to categorise, to limit, to make communication possible, right? But actually, that's not what all these things that look like trees, they're all individual, unique, thatness, that. It's just not possible in the dream to have a limitless communication mechanism that creates everything as it is, says everything as it is in every moment, right? So Bob, who we refer to as just, was actually... unique, fresh and new that every single apparent moment.You are not the person you went to sleep, you're not the same thing, whatever you were never, that went to sleep last night.
It's an illusion that you are that same body. What's more important is Bob continually was, who is not a Bob, expressing that there is no individual here running the show, making decisions. There was never a Bob there. That's why saying before and after enlightenment, nothing actually really changed. There was never Bob.I agree with you, Michael. It's just that, and I've had this problem, you know, over the last year, 10 years, it is the... I hear what you say, but from where my, you know, and we can talk in semantics, but this person is at the moment that I'm trying to grapple with what Kate's saying, that you're the next step beyond, which it's sort of like it's too many steps.
And it just does my head in. Do you understand? And I understand what you're sort of saying, but then I get confused because it's a long way away. Does that help? That's the thought that's coming up right now. So there's an apparent thought that's coming up right now and you're attending to it and that thought says, I am confused right now. I am confused right now. You're putting energy, the energy of attention and belief is going into it. When those kind of seeming thoughts, I am, come up, take, actually do the practical investigation, as Bob was always saying, take a look. To whom are those thoughts addressed?Yeah, I understand.
Do you? Do you? Do you understand or you actually do it? Do it. Just do it. Look for that Jane, the person, the mini-me to whom the thoughts are appearing. And also take a gift because really, I'll take a moment, really, Bob was also saying the answer is not in the mind. And this is really why I appreciate always, you know, like pointing with Tanya, when one of us will take a position, let's say, looking at the dream and another one will push it outside the dream. And it is complementary. It always complement. It always, if one aspect is asserted, the other one slap it out.
Yeah, good. Yes, I very much appreciate what she's saying. But it takes... Yes. I understand what she's saying. The thing is, you actually... The thing is, if you think you understand what she's saying, you think the answer is in the mind. The thing is to stop the mind, to put the mind in a position when the computer gets too many actions to perform and it doesn't understand anymore and it doesn't perform those actions anymore and it just gives up and surrender. And it says, shit, no, I can't follow. No, this is, no, I can't get it. I can't. And then you land back in a moment.Okay, okay, I'll just give up.
I won't try to understand it. I'll just be. And then the whole comprehension, the whole speaking, well, oh, yeah, I'm getting it. Oh, no, I'm not getting it. Oh, shit, I almost had it. Oh, fuck, now she opened her mouth and I lost it. All that turmoil of mind trying to grapple on things and understand things and hold them, put them in words and keep them for later. That action prolongs the search and that will put you in a position where, okay, I understood about 75% of all that non-duality. I'm never going to give up right now. Because I'm so close, it's only a couple of things, so I'll just keep asking questions.
And when I understand those couple of things missing, maybe if Tanya explained it a little bit better, I'll finally get it. Never, ever, ever in this or any life or any moment, mind will get it. Because the mind is the computing, is the movement, like what Anthony highlighted in the beginning. The movement can never get into stillness. The stillness in which the attention moves and the mind tries to grasp it and grab it and label it and capture and keep it. That stillness is already present, already clear, already undistracted. And that movement, when attended to,It basically obscures the stillness. It doesn't fully obscure it. It can't be obscured.
But it is moving away from that natural stillness, from that naturalness of nothing ever happened. What the fuck? I hate this. I don't want to hear it. This is bullshit. This is very helpful. Thank you. Thank you. This is a gift. Come on, Dino. Well, yeah, a bird is not a bird. It's only a perception of a bird. And a perception, which perception is true or real? The one that appears here or the one that appears in the eight billion other perceptions? So nothing is actually real. Just to say, you know, It's only like immediate. It's only right now. So if there's a cup here, there's a cup.
There's a perception of a cup. There's not a cup. There's a perception of a cup. Eyes are closed. There's no cup. There's no experience of a cup. There's not even a perception of a cup. Nisargadatta is here. There's a teaching, there's a perception of the Nisargadatta. Eyes closed, deep sleep, there's no Nisargadatta. Was there ever one?There'd be one. If there's a story of Nisargadatta, that's what's appearing in the vibrational frequency of thoughts. If there's words read in a book about Nisargadatta, there's a perception of words and thoughts about those words. Who's doing it? Where are they appearing in? How are they appearing? To what? Who or what is attending or giving their attention to all this?
Attention just moving to all these different things. Just a move to my mind which said this is wrong. Just move to a thought that said I don't understand. Just move to this sensation in the body that said, oh, I feel tight. Just move to another. It's endless, the movement of attention. The movement of attention, it's like, you know, I think one of the best. You know, teachings that Bob, you know, said was just watch the mind and see how it functions, see how it operates, see how it's just going and creating this whole existence, this whole sense of a me, this whole sense of a you, the whole sense of a thing we're going to fix and understand and relate to and get to and embody and deepen.
And it just, it's a circus. It's endless. And it's like you can't, like very quite simply, there's no answer to be found.in the mind. It's really quite simple, you know, in that sense. There is no answer. And, you know, I do remember having these wow, these wow moments and these, you know, real deep insights. And then I'd go back to a book or a YouTube or a teaching and it's like, you know, stillness means I'm this or, you know, I'd read something. Oh, hang on a minute, like you were saying earlier. Oh, I actually don't have it. I don't get it. Like, I don't get what he's saying.
Oh, now I have to. It's all bullshit. Every little bit of it is absolute rubbish. Because it's just another thought appearing and just appearing, saying that this is wrong or this is not understood or this could be better or this could be different to what it is. And I think you were saying at the start too, like the what is, you know, the... It's undeniable, like it's ridiculous to argue or to say what isn't. Because what is, is, you can talk about it or the thoughts may appear describing what is as shouldn't be what is, yet what is, is so undeniable. unavoidable, like it's, you can fight it, accept it, reject it, you're not even doing that, like the attention's moving to these ideas that are appearances, like packets of energy appearing, and who are they appearing to?
They're not appearing to anyone, it's just an appearance. Just as this hand is an appearance, it's an appearance. But hang on a minute, you know, like there's a body and there's a mind and, you know, I've got to live in the world. I love these ideas. And true, and all those things will play themselves out. Like what you were talking about in the dream before, it appears in the dream. There are endless rules and ways in which the dream seems to appear, like to create time, to create continuity, to create a sense of a me, to create... The sense of gravity to create everything has a place in the dream.
The dream can be described endlessly, forever. And there's going to be infinitesimal explanations and perceptions on how the dream supposedly works, cause and effect and good and bad and right and wrong and left and right and up and down and inside and outside and past and future. There's endless ways to describe the dream. But what we're sort of saying is like that's the mind is creating all of it, all of it. So am I any part of this?Could I be any part of this dream if there's an awareness of all these different parts playing themselves out? Hallelujah. So have fun and relax and there's nothing to work out.
Nothing to fix, nothing to change, nothing to improve. Relax in the unknowing, relax in the ridiculousness of trying to understand some deep, profound, mystical, the most important teaching in the universe. You know, I've got to get this, I've got to get what the Buddha said, I've got to become more like that and rest in this place and that place. All ideas, all ideas, no matter how profoundly beautiful or deep or exposing or whatever they sort of point to. They all have a purpose and nothing has a purpose at the same time because they're all the appearance and the attention. Back to that movement of attention, attending to this, that, the other.
Well, then attention relaxes and it expands. All there is is oneness. All there is is everything. Oh, no, now the attention is back into my left hand. All there is is a left hand. Oh, and the thought of a left hand. Oh, look, where's the attention going next? Who knows? So that's why there is no doer, because there's no controller of this attention. It's just attending. It's just moving. Oh, there's a choice. I can go left, I can go right. Where did that come from?Ah, I created it. The idea, ah, I created it, is another appearance in the immediate nowness, in the timeless nowness of an appearance.
And once again, it appears like there's rules in the dream of making choices and having a sense of the self and free will and options and good and bad. And, you know, the kangaroo made the wrong choice. It stepped in front of the car. I mean, that was wrong. It should have made the right choice. Is there a right choice? That's back to the inevitability of what is. That's what happened. And where is it now? Nowhere but a fleeting memory. Where is the memory? Now. What is it appearing in patterns of thoughts? Where is Nisargadatta now? Yeah. What is he? What is he? Yeah. Yeah.
Beautiful. Thank you. That was brilliant. And also it kind of reminds me, you know, like when you watch the mind, when you see how it functions and you see how the dreaming functions, you know, you see how the daydreaming happens. You know, for example, the fantasy comes up. Oh, I have to prepare. I have to plan the day tomorrow. I have to write the report or something. And then you go to sleep at night and you find yourself in alien environment. I think Dan, you mentioned about the dreaming, you know, you find yourself in the environment that is completely unpredictable, is suddenly arising out of nowhere.
And you see.so clearly the spontaneity of responding to that environment. You see how you did not prepare that, how you did not expect that. And yet that avatar in the dream does its best. Like the kangaroo, it was its best. The estimation wasn't good enough, but it was its best. So seeing how the spontaneity is unfolding also takes down, relaxes the sense of agency and brings back, there is someone coming, brings back the sense of curiosity. Let me see. Let me see. Bob, it was, I loved when he would very often, someone joining? He would very often come in any situation that I wonder, I wonder, how is life going to resolve this one?
Because the fact that it will is beyond doubt. Everything constantly changes. Things constantly change, resolve. They get worse, they get better, it doesn't matter, they change. So he would be in that state of wonder. How is that going to be resolved? How beautiful. What an attitude, a childlike attitude. I was actually joking, chatting with our friend, American Julia. She once told Bob, oh, Bob, you have all that sobriety rules. I'm so sorry you can't get stoned with me.And Bob started laughing. And he says, and what will that give me? What I don't already have. And Julia says, shit, Bob, that's right. Shit, that's right. You're always happy.
You're always relaxed. You're just as I am when I'm stumped. So that natural state of curiosity, of attention being grounded in the present, attention being available for the immediate sensory experiences, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, what some drugs may elicit, but the drugs are not necessary for it. It's enough if that sense of agency is relaxed and the natural curiosity, natural sense of wonder is allowed to surface. Because it is the loving to be, the sat-chitananda, being, knowing, loving to be. It is always there. Unless, of course, there is an urgency for the survival. And let's say, you know, the body needs to run to not get hit by the car.
Anyone? Going back to what Tanya was saying before and what Dean was touching on, there being no Nisekatar or no Bob,For me, that's apparent when I'm reading texts or I'm reading lines that really touch my heart. It's like... The words are a reflection of myself. There's no division. And I go to these things to feel that oneness, that connection. And it reminded me of a dream I once had a few years ago where I was asleep, Bob came into my room, And then like his presence entered me and I woke up just like vibrating with presence. And I came and told Bob and he's like, there's no difference between me and you.
And I think that helps me make sense of there being no Dean, no Kat. There's only self. And the things that most touch us or align with us is when...We're more embodied or more connected. We are never disconnected, but there's times where it feels more full just based on where our attention is, whether it's... Less distracted. Yeah, less distracted, whether it's internal, external, but at the same time, it always is. Beautiful. It is. And Angie says, knowing is a dream. If you grasp it, it slips away. If you perceive it, it won't stay. If you interpret it, it's a stray. Knowing is the separation of the self-seeking soul.
Trying to find comfort in a world of so don't like, in a world so don't like. Period. Okay, got it.There is only what is. Everything is appearing, unknowable, complete, perfect, without caring. Knowing is a dream without any mourning. Knowing is the well that holds light's dawning. Oh, that would be a beautiful song. Maybe you should think of putting some melody into it, Angie. This is beautiful. You said something really key in that. Always here. Always here. Bob said, you know, can you not be? Try it. Try not being.Try not being. Just try not to switch yourself off. And when you go to that, see that?
The discovering is always there. And always here, always now. Never moves. Always still present. Presence.Everything else in the dream changes constantly. But there's that. But you can't put your finger on, you can't look at it directly. You can only kind of come at it from the side, you know, just knowing. Because it's pre-conceptual. Prior to mind, prior to words, labelling, all that stuff that's in Maya, whatever you want to call it, the dream. But the presence, that presence, it's never not here. You are now, essentially.Jane, I was hearing what you were saying earlier about this, just this feeling of it's too many steps and there's too much going on.
And some of the metaphoric way I understand that is that we expand out into this this world of concepts and we hear these words and these pointers that kind of draw us in that we try to munch on and to understand and to assimilate and it can just feel like this is too much. I'm not there. This is too many steps. And that too enters that conceptual space of like, I don't know what's happening or where to go. And in some sense, it's like there's this huge bubble that we expand out into trying to get a sense of what it actually is. And in Zen they talk about there being different gates.
There's being different gates that we pass through to this understanding, to this, to the knowing. And I feel like when there's too much expansion, when we're getting too caught up in this conceptual landscape, some of what can be very helpful in those momentsis when they, in certain types of meditation, they'll have the clouds of concepts passing. And this is what everybody's been pointing at as these different, all is metaphoric, all is symbolic, symbolic language is not. The thing, but then when we see the language and the concepts passing, passing, and then we notice there is observing.Observing of. Observing of phenomena. Observing of the concepts. As we draw back into the observing, observing without an observer, And even you might find at times you kind of, the imagination is strong, it kind of says, oh, there is another individual here watching and then there is another grander, bigger observing, that must be it.
And we take these different positions, but just that there simply is observing of all phenomena. Observing rather than observer. When we just allow, and it's available, what each expression that I've heard is that it's available right now. And it's this attaching or this blending or fusing with the concepts, wrestling with, that we lose the touch that there's just observing. And so it's no problem and there's almost this, oh, oh, this, this, I was getting drawn into this.getting drawn in, getting attaching, blending. So it's just, oh, it's all just going on. And then something else will be juicy, and that's fine too. And there'll be a, I'm engaging in this, and oh, and then there'll be a resting as observing.
That can be helpful, just a gentle... kind, loving, drawback to observing, can be one of those gateways. What's often expressed here is a gateway of inquiry, it can be called, a gateway of the heart of just sitting and the loving. It can be all these different gateways and it's... All is one, nothing is wrong with any of those. All is well. And then observing can just help that resting to happen. Falling back from the expanding concept, I must be figuring this out. I need to get there. Just observing. I hope that was helpful. Oh, thank you. Everybody has been, everybody's comments today has been so brilliant.
So, thank you, thank you, thank you. Thanks, Jane. Yeah. Yeah, I have a quick comment. You unmute, Rohan, and I'll read.We have a comment on Facebook Live from Gilbert. And by the way, Gilbert, if you would consider hopping on Zoom, that would be even nicer to hear your voice. But I'll see your comment. So he says, beyond words, beyond description, the activity of knowing is all there is. The primary is. The secondary isn't. They appear to dance together. Two eyes, one seeing. Mmm, beautiful. Poetic too. Rohan, would you? Yeah, thanks, Kat. So, yeah, on that point of the observing, I think when you observe, then you realize you actually can't say anything about what's being observed.
If you start to label what's being observed and say, oh, that's what it is, then you're not actually observing anymore because you're going back to what the mind thinks is being seen. So we're so used to living in a world of objects, people, places, things, that the labeling of that object happens and you don't actually really see that object. So I think the relaxation back into the observation, if it's done... Where there is genuine observing, then actually you can't say anything about the observation. And then, you know, even that question of, is there a Bob or is there an X, Y, Z, like, you can't even say that because there's just that,for want of a better word, a field of observing.
But you can't actually say what it is. Like it can't be, or nothing can be pointed to there to say, you know, this is this or this is that. And then all the questions of, you know, is this a good thing or, you know, is this a bad thing? Is this a, you know, or this is a, you know, an angry reaction or even that like loses its meaning. Because it's just observing, it's just that pure observation, but without any labeling on it. You can't even say it's observing at that point. That's beautiful, that's beautiful, beautiful. That's the collapse of the sense of separation. That's when any sense of conceptualization is dropping away.
It's just pure presence, isn't it? Like witnessing presence, they call it sometimes. When there is no need to assert the object which assumes the subject. It's just this. Yeah, beautiful.I was going to say that before, like, you know, when there's a sense or a belief or an identification as this is real and true, everything else becomes real and true. You're solid, this is solid, you're right, you're wrong, this is good, this is bad, the world's like this and then I'm going to die. You know, everything, like the more solid the experience is believed to be true, the more solid everything else is. And then once it's seen that this whole thing is functioning on, it's an automatic, it's a machine that's functioning.
Through the whole of life itself, then everything is functioning in that same sense. How could it not be? It's quite obvious, you know, because this is the perceiving sort of machinery, I guess, and if it doesn't perceive itself as autonomous, you know, as this free will entity that's got a... Then it doesn't perceive anything else that way either. So the machinery sort of is like this lens in which, I guess, consciousness itself is like, whoa, it's illuminated and radiating and what is. And what is is just this presence, this immediacy. And it's untainted. And yet, if...There's a sense that there's a viewer watching this, and it's tainted, and then everything else is tainted.
So, yeah. I don't know. Next. Anyone wants to pick the card? Or someone from you would you like? Anyone? Yes, Gilbert says here, no mystery. No mystery. No conceptual construct to navigate. The open view has no windows, no doors or gateways. Yeah, they call it gateway, gate-less gates sometimes. But yes, yeah, absolutely. Beautiful, beautiful and poetic also. However, yeah, however, the appearance of the doors and windows and gateless and gateless gates and no gateless and real gates, the appearance, which is just an appearance and the whole manifestation, even though there is no doer, the pointer shows up, it shows up on the card. And if it rings the bell, it brings the inspiration.
And even though there is no one who reads it, there is no one who hears it, hears it, there is nothing has ever happened. Yet, that incredible play.has its own and it seems like I'm gonna just read it now it says relax relax into that even though there's no gateway no door no windows no even witnessing presence even that there is no word is the real nothing ever happened no outside no outside no past no future no present not even the present so it says Once you see that everything is one, you can call it love, there is nothing left but heartfelt laughter. It is the cosmic joke and it has never been otherwise.
Nothing has ever happened. Yes, and the appearance of happening, the incredible dream with all its intensity and diversity and ups and downs and lows and highs and contrasts and darkness and light. Wow. You can't help but just, wow, if not laugh, just, woo, what a ride. And there is no one who rides the ride, who directs it, who controls it. It's pure experiencing. And we can say there is no experiencing either, because the moment you grasp it in a concept that there is an experiencing, what's outside of that? Now, this is an experiencing.This is a space around it. No. Experiencing is all there is. So there is no experiencing.
Because if there is no differentiation, there is nothing that could be isolated and pointed out as a thing. So it is the nothing. Experiencing, expressing and appearing as everything. And everything is being experienced by no one and no thing. What a joke. Holy shit. Holy shit. Holy shit. I thought I knew what was going on. I had meaning, I understood, it was all in order, everything was labeled appropriately, all the boxes were stacked nice and neat. Oh fuck, you mean I don't know what's going on? Better yet, I was almost there, almost there, after decades of seeking, I was almost having it all worked out.
Just a little more effort, just a little more trying, a little more waiting, and I would arrive or become. What a joke. Become what I already am because I can't stop being. Like witnessing and like what you're saying, like, and then relaxing and just witnessing and everything was wild. And then all of a sudden, you know, witnessing
became one level up. And then there was this thing, the divine witness, you know. And, ah, now I've finally reached the spiritually elite here. And what a joke. That was in itself the trap and the mechanism in which everything just fell apart, like it didn't work. It was a temporary little thing that happened.
And yeah, the traps are endless in that sense. And yet there's no trap. There's absolutely no trap because all there is is this. It's a joke, but yet there's no joke. Or we can say it is all a mystery. We can say, no, there's no mystery. There's not even a mystery that would be called a mystery. Who cares? The speaking happens, the expression happens, the delighting in grasping ungraspable is happening. Why no one does it? It's just a little done. Anyone wants to pick the cards? They all go. Come on. Can I ask what cards they are? Tarot cards. Yeah. Oh, they're tarot cards. No, no.
No, they're not. Oh, say the box cards. Okay. And they're not tarot cards. No, they're just tarot cards. No, no, no. Don't believe anything. Don't believe anything things says. No, I don't.Thanks. E a Tânia, do DIP? In relating to past images of what is good or bad and wanting to keep the good and push away the bad, we are in conflict with what is right now. Resistance is uneasiness. Uneasiness is dis-ease. And I hope to add to this one, resistance is useless.Jimmy, go to the mic. Nothing can live without energy. Stop putting the energy of belief into thought and it will die out. I is a thought, mental image.
Yes, starve it. You want to pick one? Dan, you want to pick one? Even when thoughts are going on, the silence is still there. You don't have to get to the silence. There is more silence in here than there is sound. More space than things. Yeah, no view to get anywhere. No.Neither unpleasant nor blissful experience is the ultimate truth. They merely appear and disappear in that. No point is bothering with passing phenomena. Put your heart into the truth of your being. Yay. Falling in love with it. Not that it's going to want to do that. But it's again another inspiring idea, you know, like just put your heart into the truth of your own being.
How beautiful you put. They all bobs, for those who don't know, they're bobs, bobs cards. Dino, your turn.Non-dual meaning one, not two, is pointing out that everything is an emanation of the same one intelligence energy, the activity of knowing, a reference point or self-center cannot be found. Yeah, yeah. But sometimes the trying may happen, and sometimes the trying may take decades. But eventually Bob would say, you know, you are intelligent people. You've been seeking for so long. You should know by now. The answer is not in the mind. There is a comment here on the screen and it is JS. Can the thought I see actually see?
Yeah, beautiful point. Close your eyes and check. Isn't the thought I see merely a translation, the mind creating subject-object split in plain singular seeing? How about I think? My pick of the card. Yep. Yeah, I love that one. And Bob would always bring that. Every spill would contain that little bit, that little sample of investigation. Have a see if that thought can actually see. Seeing happens.through the instrument, but does the instrument see? Nah, look at the corpse. It has the instrument and can't see. What's seeing? Same with the hearing. It's a beautiful little sample, but it's just so many over all those pointers, so many little samples of how the investigation is is to unfold because again it is inspiration there's no one who does it there's no one to do anything at all and gilbert says here spiritual conceptual masturbation bears no fruit Yeah, that's lovely.
Spiritual masturbation bears no fruit. Yeah, lovely. So anyone has some beautiful concepts maybe, just for the pleasure of it. How about the blessing of the Holy Mary, that bringing, or angels guarding your thoughts. Yeah, so sweet, you know, yes, spiritual masturbation is what is happening. As Gilbert and everybody else knows, there is no doer of that either. Just like any other conceptualization is happening, science. It's also a form of pleasure that life exexperiencing and expressing itself as that form of pleasure, mathematics. Yum! But here we are talking about Bob's pointers. And yeah, the pleasure that comes with it is experienced. Why not? Why not? But that was the last thought for today.
And I think we are about... I think so. Thank everyone for being with us here. Anyone would like to say something from you guys? You have a last... I just thank you. Thank you. It was great. Thank you. Everyone. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for being with us. Thanks, everyone. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. And yes, we have a little thank you. And thank you all. And yes, lots of love. Bye-bye.How do I do this? How do I stop this?