Experimental nonduality explorations Sailor Bob's style via zoom and FB live.

And yep, that's what we get. And welcome everyone. We have Charlie, Heyman, we have Miranda out of view and Dean is coming, Bob, Sim, Brendan, Anthony, Tanya and Kat. And we have Tanya on another Tanya on Zoom with us. Oh yeah, perfect. Okay. Yeah, that's perfect. There we go. So, like that bit? Yeah. There. Mm-hmm. Okay. So off we go.So do we have a mic? Yeah. And let us know if we are audible, and I'll be checking also online. And I guess we are. So this is an experiment today. Welcome everyone. We did not link Zoom meetings yet with Facebook live stream.But next week, this is what we're going to be aiming at.

We're going to be linking those two services, streaming services, and next week, and once a month, as we said before, we're going to have home gatherings, and every week we're going to be just on Zoom. So who wants to be continued hanging out with us every week? Just join us via Zoom. Link will be on Facebook. It will be a different link because the link that we are using right now for all of the meetings, apparently it's a ghost link that doesn't have any real existence, like nothing else does have any real existence. On this video, I can't see you. Okay. I know I can see you there, but let's see if that...

Yeah. Okay, maybe you can come closer here. It's still not frozen. It's frozen. No, it's just lagged behind. Yeah. Let me just turn a little bit. I'm going to put my back maybe a little bit. Sort of, yeah, that might be sort of cut out. Can't quite get...Okay, so everybody knows how I look. Yeah, good. Not the same. Yeah, so that's the story. We are reorganizing because for the last couple of months we didn't really have many people showing up for the home gatherings. And well, that was the decision that made itself clear. That's shown up in the picture. And that we're going to be just having a home gathering once a month.

And then if people continue not showing up, we will just transition completely online. As of now, we're going to still stream via Facebook Live because we had always few people showing up and being there with us. But we would encourage those who were, like Tanya just did, Tanya from New Zealand, to just join us via Zoom. And in this way, we're going to be able to see and hear you rather than just type and answer and read the messages. So that's us of now. Next week, I think Tanya can hear me alright. So next week we're not going to have home gathering. We're going to be on Zoom and stream the Zoom via Facebook, hopefully.

And the link will be different, so check our website for the link, for the streaming link. And that's that. So now, as usual,And that's how we started with Zoom meeting as well. Because everybody already knows that they exist. Everybody is clear of the fact of their own existence and aware that they are. It means there is no one in this room who knows any better that you are. Than you. So you are the authority, you are the sadguru, you are the one who is totally authorized to speak of that certainty. And perhaps you would like to take an invitation and tell us how it sits with you, what's clear about that natural state.

How clear you are about abiding in that natural state right now. And if the clarity is missing at any point, what is obscuring it? How come that certainty of existence gets sometimes completely, completely ignored? What stands in the way? You may actually from your own experience, from your own direct knowing, see what obscures the miraculousness of aliveness, the radiance of being. That is clear when it is not ignored. Anyone would like to give us a couple of words to start the group? What's clear? If not, I can do the honors, but it's always nice.And that was always what gave Bob the greatest joy, to actually hear that message, that clear message reflected in other vehicles.

Because ultimately it is the same life essence that is animating every appearance, that is vibrating as sound, as light particles, as... Physical objects as thoughts. So that same aliveness without any sense of identity that I am the consciousness in the body, without those concepts of separation, is the same essence experiencing and expressing through and as everyone. So, yeah, okay, we can look, if no one wants to bring up any of that, we can throw the cards on the table, or we can just bring up the obscuration, why not? What stands in the way? What's the problem? What makes you doubt it? What makes you forget it?

What makes you ignore it? Ignore the radiance of existence? What's more important? What's more urgent? What's more pressing? And you will find out that how we actually started before the meeting is the relationships. Relationship with myself. Well, which self? Relationship with my job or my health or relationship with money or relationship with...a spouse or parent or a pet or anything that always assumes that they are two relating to each other and that's a good enough assumption within the dream within what's happening on the level of appearance it absolutely works and it's not to be ignored or played down But realizing that what appears as a relationship is based in that one essence showing up as the energy in both, I think.

I think we should swap chairs. Why? Because when you move this way, half your face has been... It's just what? It's just what? It's so warm. Just do it because you might be Australian from here. Okay, so, uh, then I can come here, buddy. No, don't stop here. Come.Oh, she needs a time. You can come here. It's alright, you just keep going. Come on. I think it's totally... I think we need to touch on it a bit. Okay, so maybe this setting is not going to work as well as we thought it would. We were supposed to just have a cup of tea and have a discussion around the table, but maybe it's not.

You can change that lens to a wider angle. No, it's an iPhone. See, there's three lenses on it. Yes, it's limited to the Zoom Live. It's just limited to one lens. Yeah, because of the Facebook Live.Okay, so yeah, we'll just experiment. Maybe next time we will just gather again back in there and let us do this. We'll work it out. Mike will present the solution. For now, yes, we are here and we can just brainstorm around here. We can just put that camera there later. So, what's obscuring it? The seeming division, that which appears in the dream. The relationships, which usually mean there is something relating and there is someone that it is related to.

So it comes up with the sense of identity, sense of me. Now this is me being affected by my pet, by my money, by my parents, by my past. And it is all about me and mine, something or the other. Me and the world that is appearing for me. So the division, the separation comes right in that appearance. It appears as there is the me and the not me. But what happens when for a moment we pause the thought? What happens if just for the heck of it we go through the investigative process which Bob offers? What's wrong with right now if I don't think about it?

Is there a me? If I don't think about it? Is there a world apart, separate, outside?if I don't think about it. And through that direct experience, you can see what am I if I don't think about it? Am I still the same body? Can I even, without the thought or mental image, assume the shape? I need the mental image to even know my size, to know my face. I need the form of thought to know that I am this, rather than just a window of seeing. Even to say I'm the window of seeing, I need the thought. But direct experience of seeing doesn't disappear or doesn't change.

Only the interpretation of that experience is being covered with words, is being somehow made into something, is made into an interaction between the two, the me and the not me. So knowing that without the conceptualization, without the mental images and interpretation, everything just is as it is, and there's nothing that can be said about it, because to say anything about anything I need the thought. Without the thought, It is the seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, just pure experiencing, without an interpretation of it. And I can't conceive of a problem. I can't conceive of identity.I can't conceive of the separation because that's all concepts. So we are experiencing the non-conceptual awareness, the cognizing emptiness, there is a cognizing capacity because seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling is still a capacity for cognition.

Seeing objects is obviously cognizing them in a way but there is no construct of separate me that is doing it there is no little me doing the seeing it's just what's happening and what's happening is the seeing hearing tasting touching smelling so now it is non-conceptual ever fresh presence awareness and is already here and then the concept comes and interprets it but without the concept it is still already here so with the concept without the concept there is something that doesn't changeWhat is another child? We can just transition back, yeah? No, this is lovely. This is lovely. I'm really enjoying you speaking and just all close-fuddled together and amongst it.

It's really good. Okay, so that's the basics really. The basic, the original division comes from the language. If you look at the functioning, living in the natural state, cat or dog or bird, the concept of this is me and this is not me. Is apparently unavailable, do you? No, there's no one else on Zoom. Okay, so if there's anyone on Facebook Live with us who is now with us and would like to join us on Zoom and show up on the screen just here, you can go on the website, sailorbobadamson.com, click on the link, any of them, they're all the same link, and just show up on Zoom.

We have Tanya with us, the other Tanya here, and we could then have people speaking rather than just texting. So that's the option.Yes, so the non-conceptual ever-fresh presence awareness, which is apparently sometimes called as natural state or is called as grand enlightenment or is called as liberation or whatever, it is already present and it is seemingly covered up by this overlay of constructed reality coming from interpretive, discursive, narrative thought, which look around the room and it sees everything without labels, but then straight away it applies this is me, this is not me, this is that and the other. When we look at the animal, we look at the natural world, they function seamlessly, they move seamlessly, just like we do.

If you don't have the thought that you are hungry and you need to cook, there is still a body signaling the hunger and there is still an action happening in the cooking or gathering fruits or other food is happening. Just like in nature, when the cat needs to go to the litter, it doesn't need the thought and it will still follow, the body will still cut it for itself. When it is hungry, it doesn't need the thought. It still finds out the way to... Meow and get its food.The nature has already constructed every organism, every vehicle of experience and expression in a way that it provides for itself.

And a vehicle is temporary, it begins and it ends. And the mental identity or construct is also temporary, it begins and it ends. But the essence, the energy that powers it, energy cannot be destroyed. And that energy is always there, it's always here. It is either as the space, which is pure potentiality, or as an expression, the body, the voice, the sound, the thought. So recognizing that this energy is really what animates, what makes you think or feel, this is primary, is prior to... Thank you, Dean.Ah, yeah. Very good. I'll try putting this here. Okay. Or maybe put it up here. You could put it there.

So we've got a few people who joined us on Zoom. So, yeah, back to the basics. So, if any of you would like to say something to guys on Zoom, you can just, you know, unmute or raise the hand and just...Je suis un peu déçu. So generally is anyone raising their hand? No, just thumbs up. I see the hand. Thumb. Oh, thumb. Okay, cool. Yes, so we can see how the duality is constructed in thinking. We can see how that primordial energy finds the way naturally to express itself. Naturally, it forms to the shape of a planet and it moves around the sun. It naturally shapes to a sun and it shines of its own.

It naturally shapes as a body and it moves around according to its conditioning. It naturally shapes to a form of a thought and when the thought requires it expresses itself as a thought. It's the same pure potentiality taking different way of expressing itself as a different vibration, different thought. And one of those thoughts is an idea that this is my, this is me. There is one of those expressions of that pure potentiality is the separate entity. It's the idea that I am, that is inside this body, that is a person, that is a miniature person there, that is thinking thoughts, that is living life, is taking decisions, making choices.and it's getting it right or it's getting it wrong or it's desiring to find a state, a state usually is a state and it's not this state right now, it's a better state.

It's a state where there is more pleasure and more joy and more love. And more fulfillment and that pleasant state of cosmic union or something will be achieved if I do follow particular regime and for long enough so it will be achieved in future. You see this mental construct, this thought form, this idea that there is someone inside there who can do certain things and who can get in the imagined future to a state of persistent pleasure or ecstasy or cosmic union or love. If you can see that whole mental construct, this is what starts, keeps on and perpetuates the search, which is basically engaging the attention in imagination.

Because first of all, there is no one there, never been found. Second of all, there is no future. Nobody has ever experienced a future. It's only a concept. Future can only exist as a thought. And then the process, which will take...imaginary self that couldn't be fine into imaginary future which also doesn't exist it's all just walking within your own mind within the head and and creating the impossible situation which cannot be achieved So the search creates the obstacle into realizing, and because it is very often emotionally charged also, I want that ground enlightenment. I cannot rest until I find that place in which there is no existential angst anymore, in which I can breathe deeply and I can be satisfied with the way life is treating me and my world.

So what is this now? This is another mental construct. This is another form of imagination arising. Make sure he doesn't put the... Catch fire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we don't want to cut the body.So that idea that I have to keep perpetuating that dream of fulfilling future because I cannot accept the way the life is right now. I cannot accept me being unlovable, being not good enough, suffering, being inferior, not having enough money, not having enough relationships or not good enough relationships. I cannot give up on trying to make my life more fulfilling. This is another mental construct, another dream, that existential angst which says that I can't accept this as it is now.

I have to fight against it because otherwise there is no hope. So that spiritual search comes from that deep-rooted longing for relief, for respite, for, ah, there must be more. And this, what is it? Again, it is clouding up this moment, overlooking this moment, which as a moment ago we tried and see what is wrong with it if I don't think. What is wrong if I don't construct the reality in which I give myself a label?of being not good enough, of being inferior. I give the world that blanket of constructed reality in which my relationships, there is a me in my relationships, and they are evaluated and judged as not good enough.

And all that creates that sense of uneasiness. So the sense of uneasiness which perpetuates the search for completeness comes from the same mechanism of covering up this radiance of existence, this brilliant, ever-fresh, present moment of miraculousness of being. With the content of imagination. Not only imagining there is something better than right now, but also judging that right now as not good enough in comparison with the imagination. So if you can see the mental process that cuts off The pure sense of aliveness, miraculousness, like wow, look at this moment, look at this life, look at this breathing, seeing, hearing, there could have been nothing. Suddenly this goes out of sight because the attention goes to the story of me not being enough.

End the story, but if I look hard enough and long enoughtry, then there will be a future in which that me will be a bit better. So complete the miracle of existence under the thick layer of the clouds of imagination, harsh and judgmental imagination. And then the mind says, yes, but look, you know, my story is real. I have a cancer. My husband died. I have no money. I have no income. This is happening. Yes, okay, within the dream that may be happening, but we are back to the reality for a moment. Forget about the dream, nobody's denying it. Yes, we are all dying as bodies, every moment.

Back to the reality of pure existence. Right now, without thought, where you can just breathe out all the mental constructs and for a split second, for a fraction, for a moment, have a respite of that thick overlay of judgment. And of I know what's going on, I know what's the meaning of life, I know what's the meaning of myself, I know what's the worth of myself, I know, I know, I know. You don't know shit. There is no you to know anything. It is the autopilot. This is a program which assigns meaning and interprets things according to the past conditioning, according to your complaining parents, overwhelmed, and the grandparents, and the school teachers, and all the overlay of the imitation, learning through listening to other meaning-making machines.

Complaining and hoping that the louder I complain, the more mercy will the imaginary God show on me. That's how that program got installed. And if you see how mechanical it is, how automatic it is, then perhaps seeing it will just bring up a little bit of a quiet background laughter because that's where the joke lies.believing in something completely constructed, existent only when the mind is on, when the autopilot, this meaning making machine, the narrative is on. The moment you pause it, boom, gone. And the seeing is still happening. Look at that. Wow. And the hearing is still happening, and the background noises, and so much is happening.

And the body, my goodness, wow, it feels and breathes. So much is going on without that nasty story of incompleteness. And the promising story of future in which there will be respite. Respite is now. There is no other time than now. Any other time than now is only in the imagination. And for people who, like me, spent a few decades in the imagination, imaginatively looking for peak experiences, trying everything that gives you a moment of pleasure, from food, sex, psychedelics, anything you name, seeking, watching YouTube videos, reading books, fantasizing. It is unsustainable. The natural state, the ever fresh, non-conceptual presence awareness, the moment the mind is paused, is right now.

There is nowhere to look for it.alive right here and that aliveness is a miracle is a radiance and it is happening in this very breath right now and if the attention habitually doesn't go to the imagination that breath expands your chest and takes you back in the heart. It takes, it brings you here, here that you never left. You can only imagine, imagine that you are somewhere else, someone else. You can imagine that you are in Australia, that you are in Deep Deep. This cat knows nothing about Australia or Deep Deep. He's always here.So it is really obvious, it's really simple, it's no one who does not know that.

And it's almost, that's where the joke lies. The smarter you are and the more effort you put into working it out, into reading very convoluted, long sentences with complicated concepts in them, and you just exercise that mind, yeah, yeah, I'm almost getting it, you know, I have untangled so many things with my mind now, there's just that one thing. No, he's too smart, he's not that old.So the more of that habitual working it out in the mind, the further away you stray from the truth, which is immediate, which is non-conceptual. Which is right here. And it's just that one breath, chest expansion. And with the breathing out, Bob would say, let's just start right on the breath.

Just breathe out. And with that deep, comes the relaxation and then possibly more free attention can compute the sensations happening different sensations to different channels the sounds, the smells, the sights All of it is just so rich and so immediate. And Bob would say, you know, because we focus habitually into thinking, we miss out on that still small voice, on the intuition, on the sound of that passing bike, on the smell that is passing. We just overlook all that. We overlook the immediate aliveness that is precious and that is a subtle joy in just being alive and needing nothing. There is a completeness in just being present, just being in that relaxed natural state.And it is available underneath that overlay of conceptualization, which will come inevitably.

But if you see it for one instant, what's wrong with right now if I don't sing? Who am I if I don't think? What is this if I don't think? What do I need without the thought? What is my problem if I don't conceptualize? There is a moment of like, ooh, nothing. Even if that moment lasts for a fraction, in this moment you know that you didn't disappear. Even though without the thinking, I don't know who I am. With the thinking I can imagine, yeah, my person, my name is this, my body is this, my age is this. Yeah, those are all concepts. But without those thoughts, I am.

I know that I am. There is no doubt about it. There is no argument about it. But what I am, there's no thought to tell me. So I don't know what I am, but who cares? If there is no thought that there is an I who needs to know that, now I need to find out who I am. Now I need to go on the search. This is a thought, the thought that I need to find out.That's a thought, that's a mental urge, that's a desire that is arising in nothingness, in the pure presence. If I recognize that desire to find out who I am as just a thought, Bob would say, you know, the questioner is question itself.

The who am I question is just an urge arising in consciousness. And in that presence that I am, that presence which doesn't need to find out anything, it doesn't need to know what it is, it has no desire to define itself whatsoever. It just is. In that is-ness there is nothing wrong. And if the urge to find out, to label, to name arises, I see it for what it is. Oh, that's the urge. Yes, but who sees it? Who cares? Who wants to know who sees it? Who cares? It is being cognized. In awareness. There is a rising urge. Yeah, I want the label. I want the identity.

Okay, cool. There is no need to engage with it. There is an urge, like I want a toilet, I want a chocolate. That's the same. It's just a rising urge. In the cognizing emptiness, there is an urge arising, just like any other sound arising. It may be arising from within or from without, even to divide between within and without, you need to thought.It's just arising, like Tony sometimes says, you know, it's just stuff bubbling up. It's just popping up. It's the vibration. It is noticed, it is cognized in the emptiness and let go of. There's no need to engage, there's no need to respond. And if there is a need to respond, that's another piece of arising.

There is something arising, there is another piece of arising, the need to respond to it. That's all that is ever happening in the cognizing emptiness, in that presence, that witnessing capacity that is always here.And then, if there is enough free attention, to just completely relax and not attend to what is arising. It's just pure grace. And then something is arising. So what? Welcome. Whatever is arising. Judgments are arising. Label is arising. Hunger is arising. Insecurity. Whatever. Insecurity is a label. Vibrations are arising. Label insecurity. Wow. Wow.Natural state. I think that's it. Yeah. I don't know. No? So we're often talking about the the body responding to life.

And what I'm seeing is that there seems to be asymbiotic relationship that we have to ourselves and the body within the context of the dream is almost like intrinsically linked to one's experience of awareness and it does seem that the automatic reveals itself in one's struggle. Like if you're hit with something, I've noticed within myself that it reveals the historicalThe history starts playing out. But yet... In a different space where I'm not reacting to life, I can see there's great intentionality and creativity. In this almost evocative way of looking at things. For an example, we're learning ukulele, and there is a level of extreme fulfillment that I personally have felt in learning, or decoding the guitar, where I have a significant amount of freedom around it.

And I know the path. That can be taken to have that experience. So there's a creative aspectthat I would say is not in reaction to life. And that creative aspect is a space where we can find ourselves doing the investigation. And reflecting and wow, and being able to detach and relax. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So. Not in reaction to thoughts. We have another one. Yeah. But it is life. Life. You're right. You're on track. So, so, so, so, so just looking for. Mm-hmm. There is a question in it, but I don't know what the question is, but maybe some clarity around that. Mm-hmm. That's beautiful.

That's beautiful. See? This is. Yeah. So. Yeah, so that has, in fact, talked about what's been revealed to me is, yeah, so there are very key things that have happened where I see the history playing out. Yet, there's... In all the problematic ways that's revealing itself as I move forward in life that is not giving me who I say I want to be. Right? So, but there is that aspect of, again, I'm restating it, where there is that aspect whereI can be a force for creativity and reflection and all those wonderful things that make life in the dream freaking amazing. Yeah. Right? So when you speak about the automatic Is it speaking about the reaction, that non-reflective reaction to life?

Or is it... And I know that it always is just occurring. It's always just all occurring. But in the space of creativity, as I said, there is an infinitely higher possibility of automatically doing the investigation and detaching.breathing and relaxing and wow what a freaking amazing space where we're in right now right doing it right now so yeah if there's any clarity am i not getting something right or no no yeah yeah it's beautiful like you see how you know people who are naturally happy spread happiness and are naturally creative. You know, like you see how incredibly creative are animals in nature in a way of finding the way to survive, in building the nest, in finding...

It's like incredible creativity in every pattern in nature because there is no psychological suffering that holds it back. You can see how creativity is also part of a natural unfolding that is inbuilt in the way that one essence, that one life is expressing itself. But it is often held back in people because they are so preoccupied by their depressive, judgmental ideas. Imagination. Imagination. Yes. Yes. Get out of the imagination. Get real. They locked up in their identity and in their dramas. So the creativity, there is no, this high level sort of a frequency is unavailable because you are a miserable poor bastard who doesn't deserve to be loved and doesn't deserve to live and has nothing to give.and it needs first to have money and partner and this and that and enlightenment to actually shine.

But when you are in this natural state of joy, when you are light, the recognition is obvious, like shit, you know, shit is obvious. Though investigation is also perpetuated by the other end of the extreme. A lot of people find the breaking point when they are in the darkest night of the soul. That's when it flips. When this whole fight-flight response is just overloading the whole biocomputer and it shuts down and boom! So there is no prescription for it, but definitely it's easier. What I'm saying is that, like for me, and for all of us, we've been coming here for a while, and we're, I would say, fairly deep in the conversation, right?

So there's not that, what you're talking about, that there's just managing yourself in the context of life, in the dream. Yeah. Right? So it does seem that there are, like when things are going well and you're doing things that honor yourself, there's the greater increase, there's a... Exponentially high increase probability of reflecting and detaching and all that typeYeah. Where I see being, where I've been lost was something happened that I'm reacting and it almost feels like it's a deep core thing that has not been resolved, that I'm looking at resolving. And maybe I don't have to simply because it's just everything just freaking occurring as it is.

And I know that. And maybe you have no choice. But that ain't good enough though. That's what the mind is saying. Yeah, what do I have to do to make it go faster? A couple of beers and also meditation can trot out their hard moments as well. Just release them to nothing. Even if it's not a release to nothing, but a release of whatever else is churning. Yeah, absolutely. Don't try that at home. No, I'm joking. No beers, no meditation. Actually, no, the cat meows. The dog barks. The bird sings a song. The whale creates whale song. All without a thought. All without getting lost in thought.

Imagine thought as the creator of something, as an individual. It just happens. It's the same here. Words just come. Words just come. The song is just being created.The music is being played. It's not necessary to believe in the thought that comes, that may come and says, I am the doer of this. Or the thought that comes that stops or that distracts from the creative process because it says, not yet, not yet. I'm not good enough just yet. I need to have all my ducks in a row before I can progress. Therefore, I must change something, alter something, correct something, improve something. And you can be forever lost in that imagination.

I love that. That's better. That kid's joke. Imagine, it's a puzzle, imagine that you're stuck in a black box, no windows, no doors, smooth black walls, and all you have is a box of crayons and some fishnets. How do you get out?You stop imagining it. That's it. Where is that from? Where are the crayons? Imagining. Start to believe in the story. This is me. This is who I am. So, sometimes I feel as if I'm getting told off here because I um because there's a couple of things one I read this stuff and I come here I don't believe well I'm partly seeking but a lot of it is to remind myself And I have sought, and that has given me, I have been a seeker all this time, and recently since I found out about Bob, I have understood in a new way, in a better way.

So my kind of, my seeking has brought rewards. I need reminding a lot. And increasingly, I am present. Increasingly, I am present. I am all.So, you know, just doing nothing and not doing this seeking, to hear about that is frustrating to me because it has brought great rewards to me. That's the first thing. The second thing is... I've done meditation for 50 years every day. Of course you do. Yeah, Charlie. And all the non-dualistic people say, well, don't bother meditating. When I'm in it, I don't have to use the mantra or anything, but when I can have significant periods where there's no thoughts, there's still the science, and that is a very easy path for me to experience.

Now and so I find it difficult to understand why I think it is a very powerful tool for being in the moment. The boat gets you all the way to the port and then you get off the boat. You don't need the boat anymore. Well, I don't need the mantra anymore because I can't anymore. It just happened. Yeah. And what you said about, I feel like I'mBut you still keep coming. It's fantastic. Right? And you think, I'm not saying literally here and by you people, I'm saying through this path. I think it's a very powerful path. But, you know, it's, you know, you know what I'm saying.

I think there is a difference. I do. Yeah. But that tells you something, doesn't it? If you feel you're telling me off because there's still a concept of that's what I am. That person who's done all that seeking and sudden motivation, that's been a defining concept about who I am. So you're saying to yourself... This particular mind-body machine has a particular... Yeah, the mic.Well, I've got nothing more to say, really, but I, yeah. See, the... It would work for me. It is working for me. The subtleness is that it feels like it is working for you and you are doing it, and you are choosing to seek because this is something that is effective.

The whole narrative about cause and effect, you know? I choose to drink vitamin C because it helps my body to, you know, like to shit or whatever. This is what I'm doing in the dream, in the illusion of the doership. I am the doer, I'm a separate entity, and I choose to drink vitamin C because it helps me shit. But I'm not... Yes, but in ultimate... I do accept that I'm not the doer. I do accept that. Yeah. So who is Tom Dolph? I forget. I just, I forget. But I, that I need reminding. Yeah, yeah. And it happens, see, the life is providing. It's providing vitamin C for the constipation.

And it's providing those meetings for investigation. And recognizing that you find yourself here without making a decision and doing the driving. It all happens by itself. Seeking happens. You can't stop it. No, I can't stop it. No, because you haven't started. Because there is no you who can do anything at all. So when we say stop seeking, it is an inspiration. It doesn't mean that there is a you who can follow the instruction, because there is no one else to follow the instruction, as if there is no one else to give the instruction. The thing is, when we show the picture, how the tendency of seeking actually creates that blanket that overlay on the reality, imaginary world in which there is something to be found in the future if I persist on the path as the doer doing my practices.

That to see actually that whole blanket is enough. You may still find yourself sitting in meditation, drinking vitamin C or going to an Italian lesson. Well, I see that blanket. Sometimes. Sometimes.That's all you need to do. It's like you're not even doing that. I, Miranda, forget from time to time. That's right. Is a thought. Yes. Stuck to a habit of individual me as a doer. Yeah. I see. Yeah. And Tony behind it. I agree with that actually. I think for me what is going on is that there just isn't enough care with the wording and the context. Being made. So basically, because there's a heavy emphasis and perhaps that's a lot of people's path on noticing that the me is not there and notice therefore the seeker is not there and the doer is not there and all the rest of it, often it just gets to my mind blown up into general dismissiveness of meditation, dismissiveness of the seeker, just a general kind of dismissive tone, that's how it comes across, when it's really just people talking within the concept of, oh, make sure you notice that no one's doing it, you know.

Yes. And that's for years, even, you know, especially in this, in these circles, I've always felt that that came across as a general dismissiveness instead of, I'm like, oh, meditating, what are you thinking, you know? Or seeking, you know, you've got to realize that's not what's going on.You know, you're already it, you know. And I think that comes across as a general dismissiveness rather than we're just, we're trying, whoever's saying that, I mean, I'm very careful not to speak in that way. I'm more like, oh, this is popping up, that's happening, you know. Obviously then I use a lot of conventional language too and don't find it that easy to say, oh this is popping up.

But yeah, I've always thought, oh no heck, everybody's going to be taking that as dismissiveness of this and that. There was a bit of facial bullshit going on that kind of also was backing that up, you know. Oh dear. Yeah, but all this about... It does. It's the truth. Yeah, exactly, but then that statement also can come across as a general dismissiveness. Yeah, I know, but then again, and ditto, and I'll just, yeah. So all of that can be unhelpful, right? You know, contextualising is, I think, something that in this kind of circle is going to improve in the future. Like, people are going to be much more aware of their audience and much more contextualised.

Yeah, like, because humanity takes forever to evolve that way. Maybe, maybe, we'll see. It's an interest that, you know, pops up here, like, oh, how fascinating of, like, you know, audiences were better targeted. What would that be like? And it's just a meaningless thought, but it pops up. Yeah, but the mind loves a story. Yeah, and that again comes across as that kind of complaining. Complaining. Things will be...We're going to learn to do things differently and behave better towards each other and humanity. Everybody will love each other and there'll be world peace, etc., etc., etc. We'll all grow up and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I'm not dissing an ability to communicate.

It's what the mind does. It loves a story. A lot of you are sitting there looking at me feeling offended right now. And I'm absolutely fine with it.It creates, lays its eggs, grows its young, sends its young off to bird school and fly around. All of this happens without concern for... What's going to happen in the future? The cat comes and jumps up on the table, walks around the candle, schmoozes on Hayman and lies in it, you know, without any concern for how it's appearing.Story is thing. I can't find the cover. The story. Which is based around, always around me, is imagined. It's imagined. Get out of the imagination and get real.You know, Bob used to love that comedy with that well-known actor who pretended to be a psychiatrist and the lady comes to visit him with a terrible, terrible, terrible problem.

She keeps, she has this... Bob Newhart. Yeah, Bob Newhart. And it's still available online if you want to look at it. It was one of Bob's favourite skits. And she comes to the seat of the psychiatrist with this awful debilitating problem that she has this great fear of being buried alive in a box. It's an incredible fear for this woman. She sits down and says, can you describe this fear to me? She says, well, I imagine that I'm lying there in this box and she describes it all. And you know what she says? Stop it. And she keeps going and going and going, but, but, but, it's terrifying.

Stop it. But it's just awful. I can imagine. Yes, you can. Imagine. Just stop it. And I know what you're going to do. So what is the problem there? No imagination. But this is the point. Yeah, but also, she couldn't stop pushing. Can she? Is that what the thought comes? It says, but I can't stop. Well, the story on the roadie says that despite the fact that he took her through it, she couldn't stop thinking that thought.It depends on whether she was aware of that or not. It's entirely different. The point I'm making is I'm talking about a circuit breaker. What is the circuit breaker?

Circuit breaker is do the investigation. Okay. Or transcend the level of the problem. Yeah, or do the investigation. Is that transcending the level of problem? You know what? It will make you realise there is no problem. So the answer is yes. Yes, transcend the level of problem. Thank you, Kat. And I also have a couple of comments here. We still have 18 people. Now we have 15 people watching with us online. So if you guys would like to join us on Zoom, we could actually hear you instead of reading comments. And maybe that will be just, I don't know, just something to consider. Maybe for the next week.

Mona says, we're noticing the vastness. It is less and less desire to live as a dream character. Absolutely, isn't it? It's a natural joy. And here Tanya says, everyone linking through the Zoom, yes, the invitation. And Benjamin says, who is there to care what I am? Brilliant. Yeah, just have a look. Yeah, that's the thing. And also I wanted to invite whoever is on Zoom with us, you know, you can just unmute.yourself and open your mouth and we will all hear you. We have a good nice sound system and we would love to hear you. Hello everyone. Hey! Hi, I'm Jay and I just found myself here.

First I joined on Facebook after my little walk and I'm just having a tea and enjoying the resonance, I guess. Beautiful, welcome! Thank you.And next week and the next three Sundays, just because we didn't really have many people showing up for us for Sundays, we're just going to be on Zoom. So we're going to be sitting here around the Zoom much, much closer, and we're going to be really counting on all of you to participate. Now we have discussion in the room, which is always wonderful. But because we can't expect it every week anymore, now we're just going to be counting on you guys. And Jyoti says, joining from New Delhi while parking for an early morning flight back to Sydney.

Yeah, lovely. Ben, did you? I just want to talk about what we've been talking about. So, free will, the way I see it, it is an illusion. There is no me, but there is also a me. coexisting. So there's no me, but there's also a me. But I think it's important when we're talking about this, whether we have a choice or not, to determine what the term illusion actually means. So if we think there's no one there, and there's no free will, we need to know what illusion is. Beautiful. That exactly relates to what you say.There's no me and there's a me. There's no free will, that is an illusion, but we need to know what an illusion is.

And I'll let Kat talk about that because I don't know how to... Tell us about your experience. Well, I don't know how to articulate what I'm saying, but in my experience, that's what happens. But an illusion to me is... What's the rainbow mirage? What's the illusion? So like a rainbow, you see it's there, but when you get closer, it's not. Yeah. So it appears to be there, but it's not. But I think there's more to it. There's more into what illusion actually is, but I can't... Get the words for it. The false can't stand up to investigation. Yeah. So what you're describing is you're investigating.

Yeah. You're... You're... You're... Yeah. But it's still there. Like, you can't deny the whole thing, but you're also... It's not there. So it coexists. You are there in the appearance. It coexists. Yeah. Yeah. It's a personal. So just a brief thing on that. An example. Just an example. Like I understand that I think when some ships first sailed into one of the islands, Tahiti or something like that, the people on the shore hadn't seen something like that.So while all that, you know, the molecules were still happening and they're not really molecules, are they? And, you know, everything was just sort of floating around and bubbling around.

There wasn't like some kind of conceptual shift. So there was just whatever, you know, went through the papers. It was it. And then nothing else happened after that. Bob had this, he often talks about the mirage as a good metaphor. Because, you know, even when you drive in a hot country through Australia and you look at the pond of the water showing up on the asphalt, on a hot asphalt, and then you come closer and it disappears. That's really what the illusion is. You look closer and it isn't there. You look in the mirror and it feels like there is a garden there. But you come closer, oh no, there's no garden, it's just a reflection.

Or any other illusion, you know, like the oasis in the desert or something. You look closer, can't find it. The water, the pond of water. Yeah, the blue sky. I love the blue sky. That's it. Or the ocean, the blue ocean. You take a glass of water, it's not blue. The investigation, the illusion is something that does not stand up to investigation. So there is definitely an appearance of reference point. I've got another example. Yeah, go on.Yeah, like lately I've sort of been, I've seen people that I should know quite well and I've chatted to them for months and then I'm just not remembering who they are, like when I see them a couple of weeks later.

And it's like, yeah, the whole memory bank's white, you know, of that history, of that imagery of who that person is and interactions and perhaps notions that pop up of how the interactions are going to unfold, notions of what might happen if they don't unfold that way. They're just notions that pop up regardless of whether it unfolds or not. They're not really... Like oh if I don't do that that that's not going to happen so there I better do that And that was me that's got me that's going to do that The right way or the wrong way, you know Yeah, so it's just again Nothing going on.

It's just stuff popping up or empty slate popping up. Yeah. And interpretation going. Is that reference point going? The mini clanking machine. I should have been able to remember who that is or I'm in trouble. The mini clanking machine. It's probably about half, yeah.Yeah, and Bob was also explaining the way the reference point arises when it's required. But there is no me having the reference point. It isn't my reference point. It is just a reference point. You know, when I'm whatever, interacting in the shop or buying something or trying something, well, the reference point is necessary and the body says, I, and the body relates to itself as an object and it is part of the functioning.

But there is no sense of self that owns that reference point. And when there is no necessity to relate anything, then this reference point does not arise. And again, it doesn't have to be, there doesn't need to be any overthinking of that. It's really, really simple. It's like the cat. It doesn't have a narrative to have reference point narrated. But at the same time, it also has very, very good awareness of the shape of its vehicle, of its body. It knows through the whiskers and other fur where he can fit, where he cannot. This is instinctual. This is functioning. There is no... Narrative around it so the reference point as a body or reference sort of a reference referencing the shape and the size for functioning happens on autopilot and the same way happens with us but it comes with us with a little bit of an extraextra overlay of taking credit.

It's I, I've done it, I've done it right, I've done it wrong. Next time, oh, I need to learn the lesson. Next time I'll never do it the same way. You have no idea. You have no idea. The mind is narrating, but the learning process happens beyond. This is just the translation. This is just the interpretation that happens. Learning process happening on the level of a nervous system, of adaptability, of the really visceral level. Just like birds, they learn how to fly. They don't need to have verbal instructions to do that. A child learns how to walk or how to speak the language. Learning happens prior to that extra interpreting services, which lays down in a format, I did this, this is my fault or my guilt or my credit.

This is post-facto narrative. And seeing it as such makes the game really, really much, much lighter. Because it will continually happening. You may do something that hurts someone and you may hear yourself saying, I'm sorry. And it still doesn't mean that there is a sense of self that is experiencing the guilt and is saying sorry. It is just a cognizing emptiness, the pure witnessing presence, giving space, being space.for different vibrations automatically arising, being automatically labeled and being automatically acted upon and automatically narrated. Nothing ever happens and yet the show goes on, functioning is spontaneously and naturally unfolding. And the presence, the space-like presence, witnessing the unfolding with lightness, with joy, with amazement.

Even if the unfolding means nervous system firing, fight, flight, ah, I don't want to be here, this is wrong, this is hurtful.And we have Mona says here, it is hard observing the human pain, war, etc. It seems a strong invitation to the dream. If you have any insight to bring it into perspective, I'll appreciate it. Yeah, it is a really great point, Mona, to see how the exposure to particular messages, you know, if you are glued to the TV and watching news, I had one of my friend's mom, she was really a beautiful, compassionate being, and for some reason her whole machine was wired to cry for the victims.

So all day long she would look for people to cry for. The war, the rape, the sickness, and if she couldn't find something, the machine didn't quite know how to find it. Yeah, but I do want a heart open, I do want to feel bad, I do want to cry for those people. Just give me some bad news, please. I just want bad things to happen to people so I can cry. Do you want to show your compassion in that? Yeah, but this is automatic. This is how the machine got wired. Exactly. And no one does that. And that's the identity. That's her wanting to live her identity.

That's what I'm getting. Yeah. That's what I'm getting from what you're saying, Kat. Yeah.That sort of relates to what Graham said and relates to what Anthony said before. So in this growth process, we're enjoying both sides, the me that's not there and the me that's there. I don't have a problem with that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely not. And the problem is, the problem is with these spiritual movements is, they'll wave a finger at you for not being. I've been crumbling in your way, I don't know what the bloody hell it is. The thing is, nature works in its own time. You can only set the intention by your seeking, by your being.

And even that is nature setting intention through you. Exactly. Let them wipe their finger. Let them wipe their finger. Yay! Yes. Attention's a version. Let them wipe their finger. You know better. You know better. You know better. Beautiful. Thank you. You know that you are. I love it. I love it. Let them. This is part of it. Beautiful. Let it play out. Beautiful. Yeah. What can you do? Everything's included, nothing's excluded. If there is a seeking instinct going in this body, there's nobody guilty of it. It's just life perpetuating itself through the seeking instinct. Like it barks through the dog, like Tanya was saying, meow through the cat, and sing through the bird, and it seeks through the human, and then through some of the humans, the seeking...ends and there is just sense of elation and to other humans the seeking ends and there is just sense of neutrality and through yet another human it never ends and it dies in misery and it dies in depression.

From a life's perspective it gets it all. From human individual, oh there's no justice. You know some people are born beautiful, wealthy and happy and they're miserable, they're complaining and other people are handicapped and they've been raped and they've been going through six wars in this lifetime. Where is justice? We have to invent a reincarnation because that will justify. And other imaginary stuff, no. The ultimate perspective, there is that one life experiencing itself through every single pattern and inclusive of sense of separation, inclusive of longing for completeness or pleasure or elated states or imagination. It is all beautiful, it's all to be appreciated. The human messiness, oh my goodness.

Discovering the way the nervous system flares up and brings up childhood trauma. Shit! Mind-blowing! Mind-blowing! And up until the end of Bob's life, he would have buttons. I found that I pushed them maybe twice over the nine years. But six times? Oh, you're too old. Really? I couldn't find them.I wouldn't have known if they told me. Couldn't find many, but his previous wife, she's got quite a big map of them. So, you know, this whole improvised wiring in this crazy machinery, just adapting itself to constantly changing environment, inseparable from it, learning through trial and error, messiness. How brilliant, how beautiful. If you are detached, if nothing is personal, if you see that this machine is going to respond or it's going to react or it's going to get creative and you just say, woo, okay, let me see.

When you're more in awareness, when there's more of that awareness existing, I think that's when the wonder really grows. That's true. The wonder of all that is. Yes. Yes, that's exactly it. And I think it's also useful, Bob would say, well, you know, all these trials and tribulations, really, when you look at it from the, you know, from way out in the stratosphere and stuff, just look at the wonder. It's a bad perspective then. Yeah, yeah. And if things are not fair,

Yes. Because to judge something as good or bad or pleasant or dark or light, you need a reference point. Without the reference point, it's like, But it's not positive wow or negative wow.

It's just... You truly accept that you have no answer. Yes. That you truly know nothing. Mystery. Absolute mystery. It is all a complete mystery. Wonder and mystery. And all the explanations and the science and the religious concepts, it's all part of it. You have really no clue.Chandika says, our brains are conditioned to live in the eye. This needs to be loosened. Nisargadatta said it is like a cork screw on a bowl. That's a fun metaphor. Yeah, there's tons of metaphors. Yeah, thank you, thank you, Chalika. Tons of metaphors that bring up that seeming sense of contraction to, you know, like kind of even objectifying it or making it to be a metaphor kind of helps distance yourself from it because now you're looking at the object.

That sense of contractions, the sense of personality, the sense of suffering. Now you're looking at it as just mental construct. Just a sense of... Restriction took place the day you were born. Use the mic. Yes. Took what? Took place the day you were born. The day you were born? Yeah, you came into the body. The day you were born. Are you sure? Yeah. Are you sure? But baby, little baby when it is born, it has no concept of contraction or anything. No.In the beginning was the Word. The Word was God. When the umbilical cord comes off the baby, that's when it first separates. You're up shit creek, no.

Who's doing life? It first separates from the mother. The baby doesn't actually have a sense of being separate from the mother. No, it doesn't. So the only thing that happens is the contraction. Goes into the belly and it forms, it's got no words obviously. Yeah, I'm talking about a slightly different form of contraction. Tell us, what is this different form of contraction? Well, it's only me telling you something. No, I mean, what are you? No, if you're coming into this human form, then you are a spirit having a human existence. And that is a contraction because when you're in spiritual form, there is a complete sense of unlimitedness.

There's no question. So you use the word spirit in synonymous with the other words that get used. Sometimes it doesn't matter what the word is, but with business, awareness, being. Is that what it means to you? Tell us what is spirit. Is God on the cross? I think Miranda just said it. All pervading oneness. All pervading oneness is what spirit means. Yeah. In that context. All the way. That's beautiful. Yeah. Nothing else. Not even one.And then, when you think of that, you know, in that sort of context, that all-pervading oneness in its absoluteness, incapable of knowing its own existence and knowing itself, and then the emptiness...

Welcome to planet Earth, Kat! Yes! Then emptiness... Vibrating to forms and getting a glimpse of itself. It's just a divine play. Beautiful. Yeah, and it never ceases to be what itself. It never ceases to be an emptiness. It only appears to be a form. The contraction is only an appearance. The awareness becoming consciousness is only a dream. It is still itself. Exactly. Yeah, like Bob says, can anything come from nothing? No, it remains nothing, but it appears as something. That's the beauty of the dream. That's the wow. And nothing is nothing, nothing, empty void, no thing, to be precise. Not an object. It's very difficult to put syntax on it.

So it's impossible. It's impossible. It's not difficult. It's just come and done. I want to ask what everyone else thinks, but for me awareness and consciousness are the same thing. Yes. Just slightly. Yes. They're used to express different parts. Yes, yes, absolutely.Is that what you guys... It's all the very oneness. There is no two. So even the concept of a soul as an individuality is really the one as well. Yes, appearing as. Awareness and consciousness is one. We're just appearing finite. Yes. In the mind. And it's a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful... What is consciousness without awareness? What is awareness without consciousness? Exactly. However you define them.

Yeah. See, the mind loves to dissect and create, oh, I need to work this out and put the ducks in a row before I can agree to be present. Beautiful. I'm enjoying it, Tanya. Yes. I'm more curious. Oh, sorry. I've just got a slightly more purist version on consciousness and awareness. I've tried to... Yeah, here it just seems like neither of those two things exist. So when you're basically not thinking about it, you know, what's there? Well, no consciousness, no awareness, no knowing, none of that. So really, to me, that's like the place to come from anyway when answering any of this. Okay, so, yep, nothing.

Because that, you know, you could say in layman's terms that I got taken more seriously and that went to, you know,What's not there when, what's there when you don't think about it? So, kind of forgot what I was talking about. So, what was I talking about? I wanted to ask you this. Yeah, so, Also, what's that dude who did those centres in that book? He went around and interviewed tons of people today. He's still getting involved with people and categorising it. What's his name? Jeffrey Martin. Jeffrey Martin. So, yeah. What he said, it seemed to collect data well, but then he made up his own bullshit about there being free will, which I've never experienced, and just saying the people in his area thought were wrong, basically.

In fact, that's the only one my course gives out for free, you know, a 11 thing on how there's no free will, but how there is free will, so there is no wrong. But yeah, but what he was saying is that like the stages, not really stages, but the areas one, two, three, were really about the experience of those moments where nothing's going on, more and more of them, and also dropping of the beliefs as a me and that there's, you know, free will. When you're in the stage, in the area four, there's a lot of neutrality, like the sort of like, remained connections and all that don't really show up.

Location I think you call it. Yeah, location, yeah. Don't really show up and so, and the idea of pretty well knowing. So it basically says that like two, there's consciousness, at three that goes out the window and there's only awareness as a concept of what is there from those experiences.and ones that are cash and four have no concept or no sense that they've sensed that thing of consciousness or awareness or knowing. So it's just very neutral. And so I think I'm kind of there for that, but I'm not there for moments of no thing. Like, you know, this head's constantly reacting to shit. But in terms of the how it all works perspective, yeah, it just makes no, consciousness makes no sense, awareness makes no sense, knowing makes no sense.

It's really, you know, to look at any of those questions, everything just disappears out of this head and I can only answer from what's not there.Okay, so that's sort of sticking around for a bit. I like that you nailed it when you said awareness and consciousness, neither of them are true. No, they're not there. So, yeah, everything goes out the window when you're not thinking about it. And to me, that's the only thing that makes sense about what is an enlightenment. Oh, okay, I'll just go with that. Even though that's only for a set, you know, that's a fraction. We'll just go with that as a bigger, why not?

And so that's kind of been adopted by some people as that can be enlightenment, never do. And that's how, and it's, you know, been work just taken as that for now. Yeah, until there's more experiences to talk about. But, yeah, right now... There was another little lost point somewhere, but it's lost. And all the sand done and all the complex categorisations and this and dichotomies and... You know, multitude of comparisons and separations and this is not this, this is not this. At the end of the day, you are. You know that you are. Yeah. And it's, yeah, the little signposts were a bit more clear than some other signposts because he did collect the data and just, oh, here's an overlap, here's an overlap, here's an overlap.

A whole bunch of people have this kind of experience that we can sort of relate, you know, commonly put together more or less as far as ever can come out of what's coming up right now. Yes. And if there is ever such a thing you could find as mine.recognize it's all happening in that imagination. It's all imagination, mind imagination, whatever the word is that we want to use. It's all imaginary. Yeah, imaginary, yeah. For me, like, in the mind it never makes sense either, so it's very easy here to dish the whole sense of the mind. And perhaps, you know, there's a lot of seeming folks who don't recognize that it's not making any sense.

Yeah, that's it. It doesn't make sense. Yeah, it's not making sense. Yeah, it don't make any sense. Yeah. What if we, what if there was a, uh, uh, uh,Stopping giving attention to the imagination. Just, you know, and stop imagining it. Stop the skill I'm speaking to. And then you go and look, who's imagining? I can't find anybody imagining. And we can't just say now even though it's just happening. Bringing up the notion that yeah, just even like the creative work that suddenly pops up in the artist's head and the artist is usually pretty quick to notice it just had popped up and then the wow that was so cool, where did that come from?

But like as you say, if that's even reduced, that's even seen as even imaginary, the whole process itself, then really there's just a sort of stuff arises and no meaning even gets made about what was cool, where did that come from, that's a piece of art or anything, you know, it just pops up. Yeah, and yet it's happening. Amazing. Amazing. That's just, wow. There's no void, there's no nothing. Yes. Yeah, that's it. You can't deny that you are. No, no you, no I. You're getting back to imagining. What's there when you're not thinking about it? That's the problem. Compelling, that's for sure.Yeah, that's actually... Guys on Zoom, would you like to add something or say something?

Because we're going to be wrapping it up and we didn't really hear that much of you. I hope we could maybe include you a little bit. If nothing comes up, that's okay. That was like the wrong lift. Okay, so I guess... Oh, yes? No, I was just listening and it kind of aligns with my thoughts this morning when you say that the cat doesn't realize it's the cat, but it's still aware of the... Extremities and it knows its shapes and all that and I had the same thought this morning outdoors just listening to birds singing that everything in nature is about patterns and the bird is birding and the squirrel is squirreling and there doesn't have to be any extra layer of thought on top of that pattern.

For most of the species, although this pattern, patterns reveal amazing natural intelligence.But there's no extra top layer.