Interview from 1999, Sailor Bob and John Lindland

All right, dude. Here's another one of these very well-planned videos that we're going to do. In other words, no planned videos. I was thinking maybe, why don't we do this one as if you were meeting someone who doesn't know anything about what they're going to see, which hopefully is going to be some of the people who are going to watch this. Well, we can't do it as if. We have to take it as it comes. Yeah. Well, what I mean by that is, let's start from zero. Actually, oddly enough, that's where we're going to end up, isn't it? I love that Ranjit, you know, zero.

Yeah. Zero. What is it that we're talking about? They talk about, they're talking about beingness, the only reality they're absolutely certain of, that sense of presence, awareness of presence, expresses itself through the minds as a thought I am. It's just nothing else. Why talk about that? Why talk about it? Because it's all, it's the only thing worth talking about, really. Why is everything else not worth talking about? Because everything else is a movement away from that natural state of being which you are. It's everything else is a becoming, or a was-ing, you should not be, isn't it? So, the reason somebody would most likely want, the reason that a person would think they'd be watching this videotape would be to so-called improve, or to learn something.

Can you point out how the very idea of improving, or becoming, is the problem itself? Well, our problems arise from that primary-ism, dualism, which is me and the other. Every ism arises from that primary-ism, dualism, whether it's Protestantism, Catholicism, Buddhism, Capitalism, Communism, Alcoholism, Drugism, any ism at all arises from that. And that primary-ism, me and the other. That's the reference point, which is set up as a belief in what we really are. Our natural state is just that being, awareness, and loving to be right now. Right here, right now. And if none of those other images are put on what we believe in, then there's never any problems as such.

There's no suffering. Suffering can only happen to a me. We can go into that if you like. Sure. Well, that me, as an image, all it is is an image we have about ourselves, which, as I say, becomes the reference point, or the self-centered. The me being, if somebody's watching this, the idea that they have about themselves as a separate entity. Yes. A so-called person called Steve, or Jean, or Susan, or whatever the name may be. Yes. And just as you said that, you can see that all that is an idea or a mental concept that they have about themselves. Based on their past experiences and events that have happened to them, and the condition that has been put upon them by the society and the world at large, we form this mental image.

And from then on, that is the center, or what we believe to be us, or me, is the self-center, or the reference point. And all the great traditions tell us that selfishness, self-centeredness, and self-will is our problem. They tell us to be selfless without that self. But that self, if you can see it, but it's a false center, it's a false image. It's only based on past memories and experiences, and conditioning. And those memories, experiences or conditioning, actually have no reality apart from ideas or concepts in the mind. And this is why the ancient teachers will tell us to ask the question, to find the truth or reality, to ask the question, who am I?

And when you look at that, and ask, who is the question, you'll see that the question, the questioner, itself cannot exist without the question. Because the question, who am I, is actually the questioner. And that questioner is only that thought, who am I? So people have been searching for years, to find out who am I, looking beyond that. To try and find something, where they can say, this is I, this is me. And never ever find it, because they don't see, that the very question itself, is the questioner. And even looking at that question, who am I? Take away, take away the who, take away the I, or who, or take away, take out the am first.

Who and I, what meaning has that got? Who, I, hasn't got any meaning at all. And put the am in it, the verb, and it gives it some sense of reality. And that verb, is the verb to be. So it's the beingness itself, that even gives that question, any seeming reality. It's the beingness, that you must come to, when you see, that the questioner, is the questioner itself. Then, the question must dissolve, and what are you left with? You must be only left with that amnus. Because there's no who, and there's no I. That amnus, is this immediate sense of presence. This beingness, or awareness of beingness, right here, right now.

You can't find any particular spot, as I say. There's no point or spot that you can say, I am this, or I am that. But that beingness, can't be negated. Where does it start? Where does it finish? Is the beingness here any different from the beingness there? Or anywhere else, for that matter. Here, there, or anywhere else, need that amnus, or that there be, to have any reality whatsoever. And so, we see that, that sense of separation, which, from that primary dualism, which appears, is an erroneous belief. And, with the understanding of that, and seeing that it's an erroneous belief. And so, looking at it closely, to see that it's only a me, who can be fearful.

It's only a me that can be anxious, or stressed out, or angry. And see that the sense of me is an erroneous belief. Who's going to suffer? Suffering must drop off. Because suffering is only continuity of thought. I'm not saying there won't be pain, there won't be thought, there won't be feeling, or emotion. All these things will still be there. They won't be continued on, with the me, trying to find security, happiness, or contentment. And in conflict with itself, and saying, because that me being only an idea or a thought in the mind, and the rest of the other part of the mind saying, I don't like this, or I don't want this, or this is not good enough, or so and so, so and so.

And the me trying to escape from it, is creating conflict, and conflict or friction is suffering. So the very attempt to, the very appearance of a me, appearing to try and fix a me, is suffering. Yes. I mean, I feel we should give a small warning for people who've never seen this. Because, even now, just five or ten minutes into this videotape, you might just be going, what the hell are we talking about here? Yes, it might sound a bit complicated, if somebody has ever looked along these lines before. But ultimately, what we're talking about is so damn simple. And really, any so-called problem you have, is also incredibly simple.

It's just that it's been covered up by one layer of complication on top of another layer of complication. And, I guess, what I would want to say is that what you're hearing here is a very, to most people, an unusual expression of something they haven't heard regularly. It's something that you already know, but you haven't heard it in words. And the mind will want to dismiss this. The mind will say, this is boring. The mind will say, I don't understand. The mind will say, I'm confused. This doesn't make sense. The mind will say, I'm befuddled. I'm not clear. My mind, when we first started talking about it a few years ago, would just go to sleep.

Wouldn't want to get tired. And then, you said, it's still going straight in. Yeah, the mind will, you know, be befuddled and all the rest. And where does the mind go then? It goes straight back into the old mental ruts that's created over the years. I can't understand this, or I'm not good enough. Or this is too complicated. How am I going to live? Have a look and watch and see what the mind actually does. Or as you say, it'll go to sleep. It'll escape, try and escape some way or some way into, the only place it can go is into the already deeply worn mental grooves and rust that it's habitually gone into over the years.

And these habit patterns have become so seemingly concrete and strong and they're very rare. They're staying very rare. Well, the mind goes immediately on the run because it... And again, we're giving a separateness to the word mind, and really what we're talking about is no separateness. But for this conversation we'll use the word mind. But the mind goes on the run because it appears to the mind. The mind recognizes that its days of running the show, without any other authority, are numbered when it hears this conversation. Going back to that question, who am I? It's the amnes that gives it seeming continuity. The beingness, or the beingness, which the amnes is to be, gives it the seeming continuity and that's all that the mind wants.

There's continuity because when we look at it closely, mind, or thought itself, is time. It's thought. Actually it's a thought that's born and it's thought that dies. And the thought can't conceive, it doesn't want to conceive of a conceptualized death. But it wants to continue. And the very idea of no thought is death-filled. So naturally it'll keep butting and if-ing and what-for-ing and why-ing, continually going to some story just to perpetuate itself. And when you go back and have a look at it, that body, this body that was being formed in the, in the womb, it was already, the blood was coursing around it, and the heart was beating, and a lot of other things, fingers and toes, were being formed before that brain, mind, came out.

It came into existence and the mind didn't start to reason until you were about two years old. So the livingness, the actual functioning was happening, which still is happening, effortlessly. The heart is still beating effortlessly without the mind saying I've got to beat my heart. The breathing is happening without the mind saying I've got to breathe. Hair and fingernails are growing, cells are being replaced, food is being digested. All this is happening effortlessly even now. But the conditioning, we've conditioned ourselves so much to believe without that mind, we're going to fall apart. We're going to be nothing. See how little part really plays in it.

And see how much, you know, of it is really necessary for the daily living. Like all these thoughts start from memory, recalling things that you don't like or did like, and want to recall them and want to relive them. Or things that you don't like, you don't want to recall, you want to reject them and want to move away from them, want to escape from them. Anticipating and imagining the future. This is what goes on most of the day. And see all that dissipation or friction as being caused, and wastage of energy when the mind is a wonderfully creative thing when it's utilised. And all this could go into the art and technology and everything else that we create, rather than going into this dissipation of energy and trying to protect that seeming self-centre, which believes itself to be a separate entity.

And as being a separate entity, it's vulnerable and insecure. So it's always looking for security and contentment and happiness. And this wave will keep going on forever and ever until it is questioned. And the questioning has to occur essentially, again in actuality it's just consciousness period. But it seems as if your mind has to ask your mind the questions about your mind. And that's what this conversation is about, asking some unasked questions that will seemingly dissolve the things that are really only the appearance of things, that are blocking you from the vast seeing that's been pointed out by all the great sages. I guess... Have a look at how the mind functions and what happens in it.

See how much of it is real. When it's investigated, you'll see that the false cannot stand up to the investigation. Have a look for this me. Who am I? And there's a point of it outspread from the start. You'll see that it's only a question. It's the same as I am. Wait, wait, let's pause for a second because this is... Let's say this is a videotape right now for somebody who hasn't really looked at this. Why don't you really slowly right now, this is, who knows if this is a good idea or not. Why don't you really slowly right now take somebody through some questions that should be asked of the mind.

And give a pause maybe after each one so they've got a chance to actually ask the question. What do you mean? I mean, ask... Throw out the questions that would be good questions for a mind to ask itself. Well, if something's going wrong in your life or if something good is happening in your life, it doesn't matter which. And ask yourself, who is this happening to? And the obvious answer to that must be happening to me. Now, who is this me? What is it? Where is it? It's what I believe myself to be. This body, mind. But am I this body? And you can go through the body and simply, your arm, you still are, and certain parts of your body you still are.

And do the same with the mind. You can look in the mind, how am I this mind? You know, we know that when in deep sleep the mind's in abeyance or if you're unconscious, the mind is not there. But the body, you don't fall apart. And you come out and become conscious again and wake up. You're still in that livingness, it's still there, it's still happening. So, when I look closely to find out this person, this seeming person that I believe myself to be, there's nowhere that I can find it. And in looking at it, I see that going to the first thought, the primary thought, the I thought.

I thought on its own. What can I say about it? I can't say anything about it at all. So, to make it more graspable, what's happened? All the events and experiences that have happened in me, and all the conditioning, have been added to that I thought, and form a mental image that I refer to as me. The I thought is one thing that might, that clearly appears, but the way the I thought appears isn't always with the word I. No. It can even appear as almost the habit of looking out through what you call your own eyes. Or listening out through what you call your own ears.

There's a habit of calling it... Me. Me hearing. Me seeing. Exactly, because that's what it's been referred to constantly, and it doesn't have to be, you know, it's been referred to that many times, habitually, as there instantaneously. But let's even, let's even go at it from this angle, that demythologizing of the I, the unquestioned I. There's a belief that the person who is watching this video, or listening to the words appearing right now, that there is a me doing the watching, that there is a me doing the listening. Can you show them through questions or whatever, what's actually occurring? Well, first of all, what is happening?

Isn't there listening or hearing first? And watching first? In the immediacy of right here, right now. Isn't that seeing or hearing just happening? And if a thought comes up, what will that thought be? I'm seeing, or I'm hearing, I'm hearing this, or seeing that, or this is such and such, and that is something else, or whatever. You see, and as soon as it's named, as I see this, or I see here, that, where's it named from? It's named from a past memory. The actuality is the seeing, the hearing, the actual functioning, is happening prior to the mind, as I say. Before, you know, without, there's so much happening in this body and mind right now, without being, without the mind coming into it at all.

So, the actual functioning and registering of everything is happening immediately. And it's not attributed to a me, what's the problem with it? It's only when it's attributed to a me, or a seeming person, from memory, that it's judged as good, bad, pleasant, painful, happy, sad, or whatever. And it's not attributed to a me, it's just what is. And this is what the ancient scriptures tell us, again, we with what is. And what they mean by what is, is unaltered, unmodified, or uncorrected. It's just the livingness. Which is the present, seeming, cognition, of the senses. It's the livingness. And all that can alter it, modify it, or correct it, is a thought, or an idea.

Which doesn't like it, or wants to change it. Well, what we're pointing at is that, again, for somebody who's never been involved in this kind of conversation, is that the thought is only an appearance on what, for want of a better word, you really are. We're pointing directly to your natural state. And that which seemingly takes away from the natural state is thought. Seemingly takes away. And what we want to point at is that, if the thought is occurring, and you're seeing your own thought, how can you be the thought? Both of them, isn't it? The thought is an appearance in and on what you are.

But the thought cannot be you, including the thought, I am John, or I am Steve. Yeah. Including all the thoughts that you connect. I am John, I am male. So that means there is no you. There is just appearance and thinking. Appearing and thinking. Appearing on a very large screen that has no boundaries. Well, you can say it's large, or you can say it's dimension. Because, for start off, it is tons. And what dimension can it have? Well, I am talking about, on present investigation, if somebody looked, you know, maybe we should do this on this video as well, because it's helpful. Well, here Bob, you can be the model here, since you've got that perfect model face.

So, okay, so, if you, the watcher of this videotape now, would close your eyes, what do you see? I see darkness, with lights coming through the eyelids, seemingly. And, that light, that movement of light appearing in the darkness is the remnants of light, from when your eyelids were open. Yes. And, if you look to the left of that darkness, within what should be your skull or your head, do you see a boundary on the darkness? Yes. It's an endless darkness if you look to the left, is that correct? Yes. And, if you look to the right, there's an endless darkness. Yes. If you look where your supposed neck should be, there's an endless darkness.

Yes. If you look up top, where the top of your skull should be, there's an endless darkness. Yes. So, there's a boundaryless darkness that specks of light are appearing on. Now, there has to be something prior to that darkness, the appearance of that darkness, that is what you are. Because, otherwise, how would it be possible that what you are is seeing the darkness? Yes. That light, by wish to see the darkness, shines of itself. It's effortlessness. It's self-shining. Like we use the analogy of the sun. The sun can't know darkness, because the further and brighter it shines, the further darkness moves away from it. But, what we want to point out with that darkness is that...

So, it can't know light either, can't it? So, it shines in itself. Now, this awareness, this awareness that you are, any of the things that appear, appear on it. It just registers. So, it can't know anything. Just like things that appear in sunlight, appear there and the sun doesn't say they're this or that. So, it can't know anything and also, it can't know awareness either. But, its nature is to shine of itself like the sun. In other words, the sun is self-shining. Awareness is self-aware. It's like the sun. It shines of itself. Now, when we talk about self-awareness, everybody dives into the mind trying to look for some self that is aware.

But, what can we say? It's self-awareness. It's just self, you know, it's activating itself and self-shining, I'd like to say. Well, whenever, what we say in words is that it's a present awareness that is undeniable. It exists, it is, as Christ would say, I am the light of the world. Exactly. The light prior to the darkness. The light that, the light itself doesn't really recognize the darkness, but the, anything that appears on that light, first seems to appear in and on that darkness. First, there's the light, which is what we truly are, that sense of present awareness that cannot be negated. I am. You can't say I am not.

I am. Then appears the darkness, that vast darkness that, if you close your eyes, has no boundary and has no idea that there's anything like a skull present. And anything, any thought, any sensation, any of it appears in and on that darkness, which is lit by that light of awareness prior to the darkness. Now, was that confusing enough? That's the, where they say in the ancient texts, it's non-dual. It's one without a second. It's complete in itself. And I like to use a term called pure intelligence energy. Pure intelligence energy. Intelligence is an activity of knowing, or being aware. And an activity, of any sort of an activity, is a movement of energy.

So, that activity, as the ancients said, was that primary throb or pulsation, which was, they used the mantra OM, which means I am. So, that was the initial receiving vibration. That I am, or OM, being sound, vibration, vibrate. A movement of energy just vibrates into pattern. Now, it's still nothing but, other than this intelligence energy, and the whole manifestation is nothing but patterns, where it's vibrated into different patterns. So, even the manifestation of such is nothing other than that. There's nothing other than that pure intelligence energy. But the seeming, the vibrations seeming into patterns, seem to be different than it. When the pattern is taken to be real, rather than understood to be just this and nothing other than this.

which, which, probably a lot of people believing their persons watching this video are going, what's the so-called advantage, or what's to be gained from knowing who you truly are? Knowing that what you are is prior to who you think you are. Well, knowing what you are, when you are seemingly living from the viewpoint of who you think you are, you're living with that sense of separation, me and the other, in that dualism. And, with that sense of separation, then, the very sense of separation, there's something other than me, brings with it that sense of insecurity and vulnerability. And, that sense of insecurity and vulnerability is naturally fearful.

Because, if there's any insecurity there of the sense of separation, it's fearful, it's isolation, it's loneliness. It's all these things that the so-called human being suffers from. It's anxiety, it's stress, it's depression. All these things come up with the belief in that separate entity or individual in that human. Living from your natural state, understanding that there is just this one, pure, presence, awareness, awareness. Then, that self-central reference point, though it's still going to appear, seemingly be there, it's understood and it's not taken as a concrete reference point anymore. And, things are not referred to it. Then, that spontaneity or that livingness, actual functioning, is going to be lived from that pure actuality, that here-ness, the nouns.

The mind, as such, is not going to be cluttered up with all this chatter of the pairs of opposites. The energy is not going to go into that to the extent it did. It doesn't matter if it does or it's understood anyway. And it will. But the energy is not going to be in that constant state of conflict and friction. Then all the energy is there to be in this moment, the actual livingness. And this actuality, which is here-ness and now-ness, is the only time that this livingness can happen. Then, you know, it's really living from that. Really living. And we call it effortless living, because there is no me that has to make any effort.

And with that me that doesn't have to make the effort out of the road, to see how naturally and evenly and spontaneously life flows. And if you'd like to put another term on it too, say joyously. Then again, people start looking for these sort of things. Or why life's not joyous. Or something like that, comparing it to something that they would- Or some concept that they have a joyous life should be. Well, it's a joy that is not a thing. It's an awareness of what you truly are. No matter what is seemingly appearing. No matter what is seemingly going on. You know that what's appearing, the objects, your beliefs, your actions, aren't really you.

And from, if you'd like to compare it, which there is no comparison to, to the sense of me that was seemingly doing the living, it's pure and utter freedom. As I love to say, lawlessness. Yeah, that's another term. Which doesn't mean that you become immoral. No. Well... You just don't function from a reference point of morality. If you become immoral, you'd have to be functioning from a reference point. It's just the absence of a reference point. Which is why I'd say lawless. In other words, we're being lived. And there's no I that is doing the living. There's just living-ness. Just living. There are no entities such that are being lived not.

Just living. It's just living. So. Let's stop. Well, I mean, we can title that... The beginning... You know. What am I? Let's do another short one, okay? Alright, dude. New subject. Let's talk about this. I think it was in one of the Nisargadaz stories. everything happens by itself I like that very much listen to say oh I I know it so the grass grows by itself who's breathing who's who's beating your heart it's just all that vibration pulsation or throb of energy expressing expressing expressing expressing like Barbara's peeling the carrots back over there huh expressing and the car is going by out the window expressing and yet what the mind does is it takes credit for being the center of the entire universe yeah when really the only thing that it's part is it even the thoughts that are appearing in and on the mind the mind has no control over exactly like have a look again and try and find out where does the thought come from doesn't where does it rise from where does it go to where are all yesterday's thoughts and the meanings of other thoughts you've had no matter that no thingless that you can you can find any particular spot where it came from and goes back into it all right Barbara you're Bob's wife ask him some questions go ahead oh don't you're not going to get out of it that easy this is a spontaneous production from hell no ask a question you're always trying to help people out ask a helpful question no don't whisper the machines picking it all up you can't get out of this one yes Bob I find it interesting when when I can see that your work would help people there's a fine line between putting something upon them to do this and for them taking up even the slightest glimpse of what's it what it means what do you think is a good way to lead into it well I don't put anything on to anybody people need if they get to me and ask these questions or ask questions or in some trouble of some kind then maybe it can be led into from there subject never comes up now I can see sometimes when I'm working in the area that I do know of health and a modality that modality that I do but it has to be an all-round approach and you can see these people hurting so occasionally I will see an opportunity that I use but perhaps they're here seeing me and in in the end they'll see something more there and it becomes available but it's just interesting to watch people in their minds so much when you feel that you know perhaps just a word dropped here or there might lead them on to thinking something more when you speak to somebody do you have any preconceived idea beforehand about what you that you're going to speak to them or does it come up no no that's right I don't and I guess I'm doing what I what I see at the moment those words come from somewhere if necessary and they respond accordingly are you seeing people no when I'm doing my work there is no me and no them comes up by itself and expresses by itself as itself and if there is a me and the other there well see how communication cuts out hmm it's always seemingly forced yes yes you've got to be careful what you say in case you offend or hurt or you've got to watch what people are saying to you in case what they're saying you interpret it or translate it the wrong way and you are offended and you see there's always continual friction or conflict I never feel offended I just know that when you see them in pain that it's usually a mental concept that they're keeping themselves in that pain but at what I'm doing now is actually just if well I'm not you say I'm not probably doing it because once I start working with them there is no me and no them so anything that might come out I guess comes thank you

You're getting out of this quick.

Bob, what do you think the qualities, it seems like you can express this understanding to somebody, but it seems like there almost has to be a group of qualities present for the understanding to kind of kick in. It's like it could be understood by the mind, but to actually become a part of their livingness, it seems like there's a gap. Yes. At first, see, in most cases, the seeking has come to a turn around, hasn't it? To a turning around where we're no longer seeking to gather or accumulate. The realization or the idea has come up from there is something wrong here in the first place.

So the seeking, we start to look back. And from that point, that's when this seeking, when this message that those that are really looking will find their way to somebody, who will express it to them, who will express it to them. You see, you take most religions, not that I'm knocking any of the religions or anything, but most of that, it's still out, looking, going out. There is a God out there who is going to help me. And if I pray to him and worship him or her or whatever the God may be, I will attain something that will make me complete and make me whole.

And then, you know, some of us stay in that stage, some of us go through that and find that there's got to be more to it than this even, because our prayers are no longer answered or whatever. And then the turning around starts and we start to look back. And that then, as I say, seemingly takes us to where we hear the message. It's just the old saying, when the pupil is ready, the teacher appears. And that appearance of the teacher knows seemingly outside of ourselves, because it's nothing but them. The one pure intelligence energy manifesting as different patterns. That pattern, that appearance, seemingly other than me, appears to deliver the message, which as soon as it's heard innately, we know that it's truth.

It's what we've been looking for. It's what we've been looking for. And as you say, can be taken in intellectually. And that's where the trap comes about. You see? Because being stuck in the mind, you say, I know it. Oh yes, I know it intellectually. But why put the term intellectually on it? You see, as soon as you put that term, I know it intellectually, you've got an image about it, what intellectual knowledge is, rather than knowing. I know it intellectually, I know it intellectually, it's taking you away and seemingly separated from you. The very knowing. When you know, you know, you know, you first see that two and two make four, what do you do?

You add it up, put two fingers and two fingers through and you see that it's four, whichever way you look at it, two plus two must always come to four. Now that, you say that's an intellectual knowledge. But in the perception of the fact, seeing the fact of that, no matter which way you look at it, two and two must be four, it's gone beyond that idea of knowing it intellectually, it's a pure knowing. And you're not putting that term. And you're not putting that term, I know it intellectually on it anymore, it's just that pure knowingness. People get bound in that for a long, long time, I know it intellectually but.

You see? Well, people in general are afraid to let go of that but. They're afraid to do what all the sages say is the last step, which is letting go of the attainment of so-called enlightenment and accept that what is, is enlightenment. Yes, we've always been that way. Yes, we've always been that way. But the but itself, you can see what the but is. The but is the mind, the continuity of thought going on. The mind is time. The mind is the problem. It's not a problem that's understood but it is the problem because being time, it can't grasp the timeless. And being time, it's what was born and that is what will die, those thoughts.

And it doesn't matter, it wants to continue, it wants to perpetuate itself. So it's continually looking for answers within itself. And it goes on forever and ever, buts and ifs and whys, diving in every direction possible. It creates all sorts of divisions like conscious, subconscious, super-conscious and all the other psychological and all sorts of divisions the mind creates just to perpetuate itself. And it doesn't want to die. Being time, it knows birth and it knows death. And that's the only thing that is birth and death is the mind. But what you are, what we are is timeless. And the mind can't, the mind which is time can't contain the timeless.

Timelessness contains time. And that's why you can never grasp it with the mind. And that's why you can never grasp it with them. But as soon as that but or whatever is kind of new in the mind, kind of continuing in the mind stops. As soon as I know it intellectually, you drop the word intellectually, I know it, or even the I know, just be with the knowing. But as soon as I know it is, knowing, then when is knowing. Knowing must be presence. And presence is timelessness. And in that pure knowing, there is no room for any other thought in that particular instant. And then, from that point, does it matter whether time seemingly appears again or not?

Because it must always be realized, the deception of the fact again, that whatever is appearing is timelessly appearing. It's always appearing presently. No other time it can appear. And this is what is right now, this sense of presence, this awareness of presence, well-beingness. It doesn't have to be conceptualized. It doesn't have to be intellectualized. It is. And for a mind to forgo its pursuit of security in the five primary areas, relationship, you know, health, roof over its head, spiritual pursuits, blah, blah, blah. For a mind to let go of seeking its security perpetually out there, and come back to the security of this sense of presence, I am, it has to start to recognize some of the subtle attributes of that I am-ness.

Yes. But when you just point somebody back to it, they may see what you are saying in their minds, that it makes sense, that it's logical, and yet when they get to that just pure potentiality, that sense of I am, the mind quantifies it and goes, well, so what? Yes. Yes. Because again, it wants to continue the dance. But being with that presence, being back to that when, to be there prior to the mind, which is, it must, it must be seen that everything is registered presently, right, just as it is. And that essence, if you like to call it, which it's registered, it's doing the registering, which everything is appearing in, just mirror-like essence or whatever, you know, whatever concepts you like to put on it, has been the eternal constant, ever with you.

It's been the only changeless thing, or not a thing, the only changelessness that's ever happened with you. When you were a little child, that sense of presence, that I am-ness was with you. And as you've grown, and all the things that have happened to you, all the dramas and experiences, is there anything that's ever happened that you weren't there? It's happened to you that you weren't there at the time when it happened. So no matter what shape or form you were in, you know, a little boy wasn't there when you were experiencing something when you were a teenager, you know, something that little boys wouldn't or couldn't do at the time, you know.

But that a little boy wasn't there when you were experiencing something when you were an adult. But what was there when these things were being experienced presently? You know that there was something there, because there was always that sense, it's just that sense of presence. The body has changed, all events and experiences have changed, but that I am-ness has never changed. Now, knowing that's never changed, seeing it, stopping with it for a little while, and you can see, or ask the question, is there anything wrong with right now unless you think about it? And the answer to that must be no. You've got to pause and stop for a second even, before you can come up with the answer which is the mind again, saying no, there is nothing wrong.

There's nothing wrong that you can say was wrong, there was nothing right that you can say was right. Now wouldn't that, if there's nothing wrong or nothing right, or nothing at all you can say about it, wouldn't that be like a peacefulness, or a blissfulness if you like, where you can say there's nothing wrong? And stay in that long enough, and see that the subtleties in that is like an uncaused sense of well-being, of joy. And I am not talking about silence as opposed to chatter, movement as opposed to stillness. and everything else is here. That changeless reality, as I was saying, has been with you as far back as you can remember.

And just watch all the changes in that. Give the universe a big old smile and let's turn this thing puppy off. No, I'm not saying there's nothing wrong. He still has a long way for us. And that's not alone. I'm not saying there's nothing wrong. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.