Sailor Bob, John Wheeler and more, Aug 2009. Gift from Love

The First Time is here. We're not going to teach you anything. We're not going to tell you anything. What we do is point you toward what we're talking about and ask you to look and see for yourself because nobody can give you anything either. We call it, for want of a better term, we call it nonduality. And it's nothing new. You'll find it in all the old traditions, all the religions, you'll find it there somewhere. Nonduality in the Hindu, in the Sanskrit, is Advaita. And they try to describe Advaita or nonduality by saying one without a second. And they put without a second on because even the idea of one implies there could be other than one.

To call it one without a second. In Buddhism, the ultimate teachings of Buddhism, the Dzogchen teachings, the Dzogchen teachings, they say it's non-conceptual, ever-fresh presence awareness. Just this, nothing else. And they put the nothing else on it. Again, to cancel out any idea there could be anything other than that. Most of the traditions talking about it, and you'll see this in your scriptures too, they call it, talking about God or the reality or whatever, they call it omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience. Not three things, but three aspects of the one. Meaning total presence, total power, total intelligence. Now if what they're saying is true, and it's been around for years, it isn't all saying that most religions are based on it.

And as far as concerned, you see for yourself that it is the truth. If what they're saying is true and it's total, does that leave room for you, or a me, or anything at all that could be outside of the totality? Would it be total if there was something outside of it? Again, pointing to the fact that you are already and only that. That is all there is. So you must be that. If you come here expecting some great lecture or some brilliant talk or something like that, that's not what it's about. You're fortunate tonight because we have with us John Wheeler from America and Mark West from Sydney and there are others in this room who have grasped what's been pointed to and seen for themselves.

And as a consequence of that, they have groups themselves and followers, not followers, but people who are listening to what they're saying and passing it on. So we ask you to just be open to it. You know, you've heard of the word inspiration. Inspiring when you take a breath in. Now listen to this in the same way. Instead of trying to grasp it as a minor ink, let it, like the breath, suffuses the body and energizes it and enlivens it, animates it. Let what's being said here resonate in that inspiring of it. And like the breath inspiring, it comes the expiring. Again, pointing out that any great experience or understanding need not be hung on to.

Well, great. Just let it do its work. Because in the exploration you're making room for more. If you continue, if you're totally inspired all the time, it'll get a bit stale after a while, wouldn't it? It'll allow the fresh in you to come in. So give you a bit of an idea, that's given you a bit of an idea what it's about. And you'll hear all sorts of good pointers and different people will point to it directly, pointing out that it's immediate, it's omnipresence, timeless. And it is also your natural birthright, your natural state. So it's not something that has to be got. But obviously, if it's not been seen or understood or recognised, or you've never looked along these lines, it's seemingly obscured.

But in the inspiration of it, it might remove some of that obscurity, obscuration. And you'll see it clearly and plainly. So John, would you like to, John's going back on Saturday, and Mark, they're going back on Saturday, so we're lucky to have them tonight even. John, would you like to start her off? Sure. So I guess I'll just give a little bit of a sense of how I look at it, or kind of how I point to this stuff. But as Bob was saying, the message of the core point is non-duality. And these traditions all around the world, and whatever particular approach they use, they're pointing to and talking about a reality to things, a source, a deep underlying truth, and encouraging us to have a look at it, and see it for ourselves.

To me, that's the essence of spirituality. And then they point out that that reality is identical to our being. And that's kind of what makes it non-duality. In other words, that reality and our own being are not separate. So to me, that's the basics of what we need to know to understand where to look and to see for ourselves. And so essentially what they're saying is, have a look and see what you are. And they've told us that in this looking and understanding that this sense of seeking and doubts, suffering that we may have experienced is resolved in that direct understanding. So, just need a few bits of information, a few pointers there to get things going right to the heart of it.

And then from there, it's just immediately looking in direct experience, what is the nature of my being. And from there on, since what we are is not a concept, nobody in the room feels that what they are is a concept. So we're going to be looking directly at our being and we're immediately off of the concepts, out of the books, out of the pointers, out of the scriptures, out of what other people think, out of what our own mind thinks. And just going naked straight into looking straight at our own presence, our own being to see exactly what that is. Because I think that's what these traditions have been encouraging us to do.

One of the things that's really interesting or that we should see right from the beginning is that our own being is present, existent, is here now, and is clearly, and beyond any doubt, in our experience. I know that I am. And I found that message very exciting and inspiring because suddenly all of the religious and spiritual pointing suddenly becomes clear that what it's talking about is here right now in my experience. Beyond any doubt. And that's kind of what this is all about. Like right from the beginning. Like right from the beginning. Anybody who's coming here, or even if it's the first meeting, getting pointed to this.

And then hearing and kind of realizing that what's being pointed to is here and now, in our experience, and beyond any doubt. And that's kind of what this is all about. So we don't have to add anything to that. We don't have to find it. We don't have to wait for some special spiritual experience. We just literally stop, do a full stop, and begin to look and see what is the nature of this doubtless sense of being. And I think you'll hear tonight different ways that this is pointed to and described. And a couple of the big ones that I guess that I found was helpful was one looking at the sense of being.

And then realizing I'm not only present, I know that I am, but what I am is aware. It's cognizing. I'm not an inert sense of presence. I'm a cognizing, aware, knowing sense of being. That's the nature of my being is to be present and aware. And those are a couple of pointers just to kind of get rolling and to kind of get a sense of what's being pointed to. And then all of these points tonight and everything that is brought up, you can kind of test them by looking back at your own being to see what's being pointed out. So like if somebody says, what we are is changeless, then you just look directly at your own existence and see, is it changeless?

If somebody says, it's non-conceptual, look at what's here, look at what you are, and see if that is in fact a concept. So as soon as we can kind of realize the immediacy of that and look in that way, we can verify these different points here and now in our experience. And it can be that direct and that simple if we can resonate with the message and start by looking in the right direction. So I guess that's my little spiel. That's my little spiel. Any questions? Any comments? Hello, Mark. You can have a go. Just to say a similar thing to what John was just pointing to, one of the good pointers is that start from the only fact, as Bob said, that you're absolutely certain of.

And that's the fact of your own being, here and present, and there's no one in the room that isn't aware, and isn't knowing that they're aware. So that ordinary everyday awareness that you're actually experiencing, the knowledge I am, that you know that you are, and that ordinary everyday awareness is the great so-called enlightenment that you're seeking. So you're already aware and present, and there was certain books in the Nisargadatta material, and others by, the most famous one was I am that. There was another book by Robert Powell, others by Jim Dunn, and a book by Robert Powell, he came fairly well known, was called The Nectar of the Lord's Feet, more or less.

And that was, you know, and later on, it was changed because that's not acceptable to the Western audience, and they called it the essence of immortality or something. But they shouldn't have changed it, should have left it as it was. And the Nectar of the Lord's Feet is in Sanskrit called the Charanamrita. Charanamrita in Sanskrit means the nectar of immortality. And so, if you imbibe that nectar, if you see what we're pointing to here, you become immortal. Not that you become immortal, but that you realise that immortality or what this Ovidata called the natural state, this ordinary everyday awareness that you're already enjoying, is immortality.

So, you imbibe that, and now I was fortunate enough to, all those years ago, to meet this Ovidata, so-called, and he's planted these seeds, the priceless seeds of consciousness. Well, this is only a way of talking, everything I'm saying is conceptual, but it's sort of, so that, those seeds, they came to fruition at a certain later time after that. And I said, but when that was sort of realised, I realised that I was always that anyway, even when I thought I was doing all those practices in India, or whatever I thought I was doing. And the fact is that I haven't done a thing, because there isn't a separate entity here, with any substance or independent nature.

That's the most important crux of this thing that we're trying to point to. And the Charanamrita, the nectar of immortality, is simply the knowledge I am. Now, there's nobody here who doesn't know, but that knowledge I am, you don't go around all day saying I am, even if you don't say it, there's a naked knowing there. And that knowledge that you are, has no shape, substance, form, quality or colour. It's formless, shapeless, birthless, deathless, beginningless, that's the Charanamrita, the knowledge that you are. And if there is any problem that anyone has, any problem whatsoever, whether it's a personal problem, a physical problem, a psychological problem, a financial problem, a so-called spiritual problem, the key is to have a look and see who it is that has the problem.

And when you look, you'll find that there's nothing there except this naked knowing, there's just that. So whenever there's a problem, try to see who it is that has it. And if you look there, you will try and find out who is this to say, I'm Mr. Smith or Mrs. Jones, whoever I'm mistakenly taking myself to be. Have a look and see who this I is that you are thinking you are. You said, I would like to know myself, or what not. Are there two cells? You know, you already are yourself. And so all that is just a total mis- This eye that you're talking about is just, you know, like a mesota would say, the child of a barren woman.

There's no, and yet there's still that naked knowing in there. So that is the simplicity of this, what we're pointing to. It's staring us in the face all the time and to say we're sort of ignoring it, you know, because it's, it's no thing but it's, but you can't negate it. You can't grasp it, but you just know that you are. Even without, even without a thought, you're just that naked knowing. So, so that is a stay in that and, and sort of get a taste of that subtlety. There's always the temptation in this to, then to move away from that inter-concepts, you know. What about this and what about that?

And that's the sort of thing because there's no answer there in the, in the passing thoughts, you know. They, they can be used, but there's no answer in the, in the conceptual essence that we're sort of trying to find an answer in. So, so that's a bit of a point to what we're sort of saying. You know, just realise that you, that you are, and you are not just, say I am not just for 90 years, but you are infinitely eternally there, you know. As that non-dual essence, as that everyone's experiencing, you know. So, you can't find any beginning to it, you can't find any ending to it, you know.

And everyone is that, you know. There's no duality and non-duality. It's just impossible, you know. So, so that's the sort of thing to, to sort of, you know, take a line along that and, and see what we're saying. Yeah. So, you know. That's my type of thing. Yeah. Don't hesitate to ask questions if you've got any, or any comments you want to make. What happens to the problems in, in the knowing that all I am is I am and other concepts that go with that? Yes, there'll still, there'll still be problems come up in your daily life, but you'll find that they'll resolve themselves much more easier, when, when you see that the, that the, what's behind it, the basis, the essence there, that it, that isn't touched.

There's something that, that's aware of the thoughts all the time. There's, there's this, there's this inconceivable essence and thoughts come up and, and you'll find a solution quick enough if you, if you're stabilised in that. Oh, oh, oh. The solution will, the answer will come. What I think is helpful to look is to look at what we are not in order to understand or come closer to the, the knowing of I am. Everything that comes and goes and is fleeting, the thoughts and the feelings and the problems, they do not remain, they change all the time. And what changes all the time can't be the real.

So it is hard to identify with one state when that state changes so quickly. Then you get confused and you ask yourself, which one am I of all these different states? So the more we understand that none of this is real and only the awareness that is watching and knowing and is the stable. Now it's important to recognise what it's appearing on, isn't it? Yes. As far as problems are concerned, is there a problem, is it a problem if it's not being related to anything? Unless it's related to some point or some essence, it's a problem. Isn't it just what it is if it's not related to any reference point?

Elliot. What's being pointed out here is so undeniable and it's also so natural. It's not something that's constructed out of imagination, thoughts and concepts. It's actually completely always here, always present, always aware. And it's natural and uncontrolled, it's completely, it's being natural. It's not something that has to be sort of grasped at and understood and acquired and gained as some kind of achievement that I now get. And I'm this person now that has understood this. It's actually present before, during and after any such concepts would arise. Because it's of the nature of life itself, it is life itself. It's not some kind of fancy theory that you get out of a book.

It's completely direct, immediate and simple. So simple that you can't even think of it. It's prior to any thought. And kind of a simple proof of that, in my experiences, just suspend thought, even just for a moment. And you don't disappear. You're completely, brightly aware. You completely know that you are. You don't fall apart. You don't need thought to be, or to be aware. So you realize you can't, I can't be a thought. I can't be a concept. And that's just natural. That's not something I've dreamed up or read or heard. That I've known all along. And that sense of being here, that sense of knowing, is intimate and it's completely familiar.

It's something that's been with me, so to speak, all throughout life. And so I've never been away from this. Never kind of wandered off into some other dream world. Actually, this has been my essence all along. So whatever might arise, and I've had this recognition that whatever might arise, it's not, can't stand, it's impossible to stand outside of this. So no matter what would happen, no matter what happens, or whatever appears, it's not happening outside of this space of knowing. And can't be taking some me, somehow, away from this immediate knowing. And there's a kind of comfort in knowing that this is always here. And that there's no possibility to actually be anything other than that.

And from that kind of recognition, which is natural and happens all the time, there's kind of a curiosity that comes up and wondering, well, what about all this stuff that says otherwise? It says,

No, I'm this person that's got a separate sort of characteristic. What about that? And there's a kind of a recognition that all of that is just ideas and thoughts and concepts referring back to some kind of separate place here that is imagined to be some kind of separate point. But that's not my actual direct experience. My actual direct experience is when I look at where am I seeing from or where am I coming from?

Where am I aware from? I actually can't find a point. I can't find a place where it's coming from. If I look, where is it coming from? You know, is it coming from the body? Is it coming from the mind? Where is it coming from? It's actually just naturally present, but I can't find where. And in that kind of knowing, that just knowing is naturally there. And whatever might be over there is not over there. Over here is not over here. It's just a realization that there's this kind of universal awareness that's everywhere, everything, every when, everywhere, whatever, whatever concept might come up, whatever concept might come up, that's it.

The essence of whatever might appear cannot be separated out from just this natural knowing. So it's like, no matter what concept you have, the fact that you're aware you've got the concept, it's the awareness that you've got the concept which is more the truth. So you can't even have the concept. Without the awareness. Without that awareness. I mean, how, you know, how could a concept come up without awareness? And so are you the concept that just comes and goes? You're always there. So you have a concept that comes up, drops down. Do you drop, do you come up and drop down? So it's the pretty to everything.

Yeah. And so it's just there. That's the constant factor. The make it known. Even if the concept's there or not. It's always, but it's very subtle, isn't it? It's always there. It hasn't grown old. It hasn't, oh, this bloke with the grey hairs on the way out, but the awareness, nothing's touched it. It hasn't changed or been affected. But I have a concept that I'm not aware of it all the time. Yes, but how do you have the concept? There's something there letting you know that. Yeah. And then, you know, like having to be aware of it all the time. What would you be aware of?

Some concept? It's the awareness itself that's always aware. Self-awareness. Does the eye see itself? Does your eye see itself? No. You're seeing through the eye. Seeing through the eye because you're not aware or thinking of the eye. Do you think it's gone or it's not there? No, you just use it. Just use it. Well, it's like a little bit. So, I've got to, before getting into spiritual stuff, like, I felt like I was unaware. But it sounds like you guys are saying that I always, well, I was aware of an existence, but I feel like I'm more aware of my awareness. I feel like you guys are going to say, well, that's bullshit.

You're always just as aware. But our intention is that you're always and ever aware, and you never lose it, and you're actually never, ever distracted. But I didn't have any idea. When you were deep sleep, they're still there. Or the body's not there. It seemed like I didn't have any awareness of the awareness. Well, see, well, you see, you're aware of existence. Existence can be another term of it. Existence or being. Or knowing that you are. So, what's the... It seemed like there was a problem, then. It's always seemed like there was a problem, then. I'm trying to see who's for that. But we pointed out before, a problem can only be for someone or something.

or a separate separation. Yeah, so while I thought I was somebody, there was heaps of problems. Well, there is heaps of problems. Yes. Well, there's enough. I understand the reference. You know, thinking of somebody, there's you and the other. Subject-object is duality. And we pointed out clearly at the start, there can be absolutely no duality and non-duality. But you can allude yourself for eons as well. You can allude yourself for eons that there is duality, yeah? That's not why I did it. Was it, you know, if you're seeming delusioned or illusion, was it ever separate anyway? When Elliot was talking about the natural state, you've got to understand what we mean by natural.

As in nature, have a look out there at nature. Any reference point in nature when it says, this is winter and I don't like it? Well, that summer, I'll prefer summer. Does day fight with night? Does islands fight with sound? Seasons come, seasons go. In nature, it's naturally there. There's no separation in it whatsoever, though it might appear to be so in the manifestation. And the manifest, the appearance of the manifestation is dualism. It couldn't appear without those opposites. But that's the way it appears. It's still the one essence, even though it's appearing as other than that one essence. And knowing that, you know, have a look in nature.

Nature's not fighting with itself. When we've got this idea that we're separate entities, all our problems are problems of relationship. Relative to. It's always relative to this image we've got about ourselves. And the image is a fiction when you look into it. So, when there's no relationship, what are you? You are one. Relationship is the idea or concept there's two or more than one. No relationship, you are that one. And it doesn't stop it from appearing that way. It will still appear that way. But the difference is you know the truth about it. The old scriptural saying is, know the truth and the truth will set you free.

If you know the truth about it, you're not bound in the belief that there is dualism anymore. No, it's constantly appearing. We use the metaphor of the blue sea. You never go down to the ocean with the idea of getting a bucket of blue water out of the sea. You know the truth about it. But it still appears to be so. And it will always appear to be so. But you'll never, ever be taken in by it because it's been investigated and seen. So, whether there's existence or non-existence, so it's the awareness, existence and non-existence, being, non-being, birth, death, reincarnation, it's all just conceptual. Because, I stopped talking, has the awareness disappeared?

No. No. Extremely simple. Too simple for words. That's why you can't grasp it. You want to grasp it. You can figure it out with your mind or you don't hold it. I have a question. Can it get so subtle that even awareness disappears? Pardon? Can it get so subtle that even the awareness disappears? Who for? Who will it disappear for? Well, it's like there's no awareness. Has it ever happened yet? Has it ever happened? Yeah. Well, I wonder in deep sleep. I wonder what happens in deep sleep when there's no... Can you deny that you exist? What happens in deep sleep? Just the thinking ceases function.

You know that. Have you stopped breathing? Has your heart stopped breathing? Has your food stopped being digested? The hearing fingernails stopped growing? There's a question about awareness. So, as I say, if all those things are functioning and we say that it is the essence or the awareness that's functioning, patterning, shaping and forming everything, what would happen? All was in abeyance with the thinking. Do you deny that you're in existence when you're in deep sleep? Because you wake up in the morning and say... I don't know, because I'm asleep. I could be... I could not be there. I said, you know, that you appear and disappear all the time.

But you're still there, even in deep sleep. Awareness is unaware of itself. Non-dual. I don't know that. There's no conceptualiser going on. You say, I don't know. But that knowing that you are is constantly there. Something in me wants to get rid of it. Pardon? Something in me wants to get rid of it. Rid of what? It's like... It's a burden or something. What do you want to get rid of? The knowing that you are or the idea that you're self? You're ahead of you. No, the awareness. The awareness. Well, all right, take that term off. Cast it out if you don't like it. No, no, it's not the term.

And you stop being. It's not the term. It's the sensation. You want to stop being. What is the sensation? Can you describe that? When you say you want to get rid of it, what do you want to get rid of it? The sense of existing and standing out, apart from everything else. Not a margin of nothing, you know? I'm just wondering what you mean by that. Can you explain a bit more? It's painful to exist. I don't. Sometimes it's like unbearable. An unbearable feeling. To know? Or be. Is that unbearable feeling there when you're in deep sleep? No. So, it's a product of the thinking, the unbearable feeling.

No. No. Well, wouldn't it be there? It's a product of being. Pardon? It's a product of being. But I mean, I say it's not there when you're asleep. No. And the conceptualizing of not going on, it's not a problem. No. In deep sleep there's no world, no person or anything. We just, we get to resist it. I guess it's a point of separation. Like, very near, but not. Okay. It seems like a point of separation. Well, have a look at that point. Have a look. That's the point. Have a look at the point of separation. A separation. A point of separation. Okay. Who is the eye that separates?

That's the thing that we're talking about here. Examine it now while you're at the chance. I'm going to see if you can find a point of separation. Can you? That's the thing to do. Have a look when you think there's a point of separation. And have a look and see if you can find it anywhere in this body. That there is a point there that has any substance or any independent nature. Can't find it in the body, then have a look in your thoughts and see. Which particular thought is it? Even if you close your eyes, have a look back behind your eyes and see if you can find any unity there.

Sorry, I'm just using that muse. Because your brain keeps on going and it will just have continual thought after thought after thought. So it's almost like you can't. You can't find it. I can't find it because it never existed. That's why. I bet you can pause a thought for a moment. When you pause a thought, what can you say is right or wrong or anything without a thought? Are you still conscious without a thought? Wait a minute, Bart. I'm sorry. Thanks. I was going to tell you to shut up. He's got so much to say. You're a bit like the rattle in my mind. Let's look at sidetracks.

Let's go back to Bob's saying. You'll carry away the concept again. See, pause a thought. You can easily pause a thought. What's there without a thought? Do you disappear? Do you fall apart? Just like it's sleepy. You haven't disappeared. You haven't fallen apart. Pause a thought. Isn't there just a naked awareness or knowingness there? Yes, we call it naked because it's not dressed up or adorned with any concepts, any thoughts. And you realise that without a thought, you'll only pause it for a brief instant, you start off, you know, a brief instant. And you realise, well, it didn't disappear, it didn't fall apart. It wasn't the end of me without a thought.

In that moment, you are prior to thought. But it's no thing you can grasp with a thought because you've got to bring thought into it. You've got to ask for us, but you cannot negate it. You cannot say, I am right. Very subtle, but see for yourself. Try that. Try pausing the thought again. Get the taste of your true nature. I don't think I can really add any more pointers. I don't think I have to point out, as I say, what's it doing? Is it working for you? Is something happening there that's bringing about changes? Yeah, well, that's what I think. You know, the important thing is to come and listen and ask questions.

That's what I've found to be very important because this is kind of challenging all our beliefs. You know, I thought that I was a separate entity and that what I've taken on board was the absolute truth. But here, all that was challenged and by not going with the assumptions, but just inquiring into the nature of existence and looking at the mind and the thoughts and pulling it all apart. You know, you start to look at things in a totally different way and you won't really hear this kind of talk or have the opportunity to interact anywhere else that I know of. And it is vitally important because actually it's, we're talking about the actuality here.

We're not talking about things that we believe in. And it's quite amazing because all my assumptions were challenged. And in that challenge, it's amazing what can be seen. And when the assumptions are challenged, what happens to the assumptions that they've seen to be followed? Well, they last to, they start to lose their hold. And where does it leave you? Well, it leaves you with what you can't deny, what you can't actually get away from. Because the interesting thing is, like, what is there most of here? Like you were saying, you know, you sort of become aware. You suddenly start to see what's actually there. And all the things that I assume to be, they do all come and go.

They don't actually last. Everything's so ephemeral. You know, you start to see how everything does just come and go. And that time is a concept. Everything's conceptual, actually. Nothing lasts. Thoughts don't last. Bodies don't last. Feelings don't last. What is it that doesn't come and go? And it's only something that you can't actually deny. What would you call it? To put a label on it, what would you call it? To put a label on it? Um... I would call it presence awareness. Yeah, that's a good description, actually. Anybody who is not present or aware of being present right now. Isn't that presence awareness, right? Or the awareness of presence, right where you are?

Because I remember feeling like, oh, you know, I've just assumed that I know. Like there's a constant knowingness happening. And I thought, well... Nobody can negate that. You know, just always gone along with the label. Oh, I know. I know this or I know that. And if you just take that label off, you see that actually there's just a knowingness. And that it's kind of as simple as that. And it's aware. Aware knowingness. And that's before it's conceptualised into knowing this, knowing that. It conceptualises into the knower and the knower. The subject, the knower, I know. And the object, I know this, I know that.

And that's dualism. The knower and the knower. And the subject and object is dual. Two. And so it's non-dual. One without a second. So it's just a pure knowing. And you, if you like to go in front of you, are that knower. What I would bring up was so many of the questions that we have, or the mind has, can be answered simply by referring to direct experience to what I would call the sense of being. Yeah. And then checking in there and seeing how that stacks up with the question. Like, for example, is my being present? And just simply answering. And like for, you know, people who are talking about having a problem or something like that, or having a...

But looking directly to the sense of being and seeing if it has a problem. People talk about awareness. What is awareness? What about that? Again, looking directly at that to see if that presence is aware. Or not. And just... So, and we don't have to theorize about it. We can actually just verify the question immediately by always referring it to the sense of being. So, that's just one little angle on it. So, we can make it a lot easier. So, instead of figuring out in the mind, just simply take the question, bring it back to the sense of being, and simply let that sense of being answer.

You know? And I think what we'll see is, you know, all along, that being has been doubtless, aware, problem-free, knowing everything, undisturbed, never been separate from any of the appearances. And it becomes kind of fun and more of a hands-on kind of a testing and verifying these pointers. So, I guess, what I'm suggesting is don't leave it conceptual. Make it really, really hands-on. And look to see. What is the actual being? You know, things like deep sleep, really, I struggle with those for years. But, actually, they're like completely irrelevant. Because you're not in deep sleep. And when you're in deep sleep, you don't have any problems.

And there's no question. So, you know, so it's like, you know, we're sitting here present and aware in this naked awareness, which, you know, we can look to see all these qualities that we already are. And it's like the priceless kind of gem goes to the background. And then the mind kind of steps in with its kind of, yeah, but can I know everything? Or, you know, it's like, what about deep sleep? Do I have a problem? And it has a, it's just, not that there's anything that, you know, that's just happening. Just naturally what's kind of happened. But the thing I would say, and that is just notice how it always looks away from what is being pointed to.

And so if you can kind of catch the knack of that, instead of, you know, when the mind presents a problem and wants to take it to a conceptual level, actually pause that and come back to the reality of what's not a concept. And I think you'll be amazed to find that everything that's being pointed to is already the nature of what, of what you are. And all you, all you need to do is just go ahead and take a look and verify and direct experience. And all these things, you know, the being, the awareness, the spaciousness, the problem-free, the non-separation, the natural state, whatever it might be, I feel that it's just, just a straight-out description of what it already is.

And then it just kind of dawns on you, I Am That, or however you want to say it, that's the nature of what my being is, what my essence is. That's all you need. And that's right now. In a meeting like this, there's no time involved, there's no distance, there's no path, there's no future, there's no... It's just the price, so to speak, the coin, to be paid is to set the concept aside and open our eyes and see. And go by directly what is seeing. John? Yes? Can you talk about love and compassion in connection with the being? Yeah, the wafer. Can I talk about the very essence of being?

Can I talk about love and compassion? Well, the way I've looked at that is, the sense of separation and division between ourselves and others. The concept that I am separate and divided is at the root of that sense of separation. And again, when we come back to that sense of being, seeing it as it is, kind of nakedly as it is, that sense of separation doesn't live there. It doesn't exist there. There is no I and you. See, I and you is conceptual. And in looking in that, the mind divides and then we have these issues of love and compassion and how do I relate and how do I manifest and all that.

But again, coming back to the pure non-conceptual being, the I and you does not exist. It has not come to be at that moment. So, if there is no separation, that would be my description of love, non-separation. If I am feeling very close to you in this external way, what I am feeling is that I am not feeling that I am divided from you. Your being is my being. And even in terms of awareness or being, as we are sitting here, what you are is not divided from the immediacy of this knowing or being. Yeah. So, only if my mind somehow would try to say that you were separate from me, then I got to kind of patch it back together.

Yeah. But without that, it feels intuitively like you are not separate from me. Yeah. Yeah, I understand. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. Anybody else like to say something? I've got a new term for it. I'm calling it pre-me. Pre-me. That's being. Pre-me. That's very true. I'd rather be pre-me. Yes, I think you could look, again, coming back to the being and say, is that being a separate part of me. Hmm. I'll say something. What I've thought about the other day was how, you know, we have all these theories about how we are here on earth, you know, the big bang, God. You know, we've got all these different, different postulations on what it is that we are.

We're told we are the body, we are the mind. We are this person who suffered as a child and now is still suffering in psychotherapy, you know. So there are all these stories all the time. And that story is almost, it's got to somehow continue to keep itself alive, you know, so that that idea of the entity stays alive by this perpetual story that goes on and on. Right. And so what we're told here in this group is that we need to look to see what we are without any of those theories. Right. So without a theory of the big bang or anything like that, like, what's really going on?

Like, what am I really? You know, what is it that I am if I'm not going to be putting some kind of label on it? Because sometimes when you hear that word, non-conceptual awareness, the mind can't even get its head around it, you know. Yeah. Even that idea is a bit like, what does that mean, non-conceptual awareness? You think that there's got to be some kind of meaning to it. But in actual fact, it's asking you to examine what you are without any of those theories of the big bang and, you know, what's really going on? What am I? Like, without thinking. And often the mind will start, you know, oh, I am a ready or it will be some story about someone and what they did to me.

And all of those are just ideas, right, that are floating around that have been learned. But if you just pause, like Bob says, the full stop, and just see what you are, you know that there's that knowing that's always there. Yeah. And that knowing that's here right now, that's the same knowing that was there when you were five years old, you know, when you were seventeen, you know, when you were twenty-one. Like, it hasn't changed. That knowingness is what everything plays on, you know. And so I think if you keep coming back to that, like Bob says, you were already that. So, if you're already that, and you think you can't see it, it's because the mind is creating all these stories and there's engagement in the thought instead of just in the being, you know.

that's why we say you'll never find the answer in the mind because the mind being, thought being a vibration, you'll see what's your mind and see how it's functioning. You see, it's always vibrating in the pairs of objects. It's not past, it's memory, it's future, it's anticipation, it's not. Within that range it's vibrating, good, bad, pleasant, painful, happy, sad, loving, hating, positive newity, what's your mind so that's fine. So, in that division, in that duality, you can never grasp non-duality from the point of view of duality because there's absolutely no duality in non-duality. And that's where the mind is almost like everything else. It's peering dualistically and it's constantly dividing.

So, how are you ever going to come back to one, or not even one, when you're constantly dividing? So, the stories go on and on and on. And the stories take place and while they're going on and on and on, you've moved out of, seemingly moved out of omnipresence. That's why every fairy story begins with once upon a time. It takes place in time. All these fairy stories, we're all about always taking place in the believed-in concept of time. So, look at time. See, is there such a thing as time? If you ask yourself what's wrong with right now, we don't think about it. Pause the thought.

Can you say there's a past or a future without a thought? Have a look at that and see, but you can. It's just this immediacy, constantly. And the same is the future again. Without anticipation and imagination, is there such a thing as a future? People say, but I was in the past. I'll say, try and live a moment ago. If you reckon you live in the past, try and live a moment ago. Try and live a moment ago. Try and live five months ago. Last week, last year or twenty years ago. You can't. But you can recall it. In the recollection of it, in the recalling of it, the only actuality you're giving it, is what you're giving it right now.

You can't tell me what you thought of two minutes ago, unless you're recalling it. It's gone. It's finished yet. It's there to be recalled, and the only actuality you give it, is what you're giving it right now. The same with the future. You can anticipate and imagine what you're going to do tomorrow, next week. You can't live tomorrow, next week, or even two minutes ahead. So, the only actuality that's got is what you're giving it right now. People say, I try to stay in the now. I say to you, try and get out of the now if you can. Try and get away from it.

And you realise you can only get out of it conceptually. Thinking about it. You never were away from this immediately. Another way to put it is that if you think you're going to find non-duality, you never will. Realise that you're seeing out of non-duality. The seeing is non-duality. And the mind is dualistic. The mind tells a story. It's just a story. You're seeing. You are that one of that second. It's not a concept. You don't see that. Have a look at the things in this room right now. The content of this room, the people in it. Can you separate any of it from the sea?

They would appear as sort of substantial as contained in the sea. So do the sea. The problem comes about again by creating the subject and object. I see. You've created a senior subject, a seer. Which is that concept I see. And I see the chair or the table. You've created an object, a scene. But can there be a seer without seeing? You realise there can't be. Can there be the scene without seeing? You must see from that that both the subject and object couldn't take place without the scene. They're conceptual then. Imposed upon or superimposed upon the scene. Conceptually. Tell me this. Does anyone have to start seeing?

You open your eyes and say, well now I've got a sea. Now I've got a here. It's just naturally taken place. And it's the mind, the concept of it. It thinks, it's created the pseudo-seer. It thinks I see or I hear. But if you haven't got that concept I see or I hear, there's the seeing stock. Without the concept. You drop that concept. You go blank. You finish. The seeing stock, the hearing stock. What's that expression about the five senses wide open? Be utterly awake. Five senses wide open. Be utterly awake. With the five senses wide open. I mean by that. You're not just thinking, oh the chatter going on in the head.

But the seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. Everything is functioning. Functioning equally. But notice how much we focus into that. The chatter that's going on in the head. The exclusion of the others. So they're still happening in the background. And it goes on to say, we're at least utterly awake with the five senses wide open. And the other thing is, before we go into that, is anybody who is asleep right now? If you're not asleep right now, you must be awake. So you don't have to look for wakefulness. And what is it? When you realise, I'm not asleep, I must be awake. What is that wakefulness?

Has it got any shape? Has it got any form? Has it got any grasp at all? Or is it something there that can't be negated? Can be Anyway, it goes on to say, we've utterly awake with the five senses wide open, and be utterly open, with unfixated awareness. Therefore you're not fixating on thinking of each other's going on in the head, you're not fixating on anything. It's free to be covering all of those senses. That's the problem, we fixate all the time. It's a subtlety with that, that awareness itself is naturally unfixating, and the only thing that's fixating is the thoughts and concepts, because the awareness itself is all-encompassing and unfixating.

They'll be back with the same thing, nothing to do. No one to do it. Well, all those sort of notions stem from duality of course, the notions of becoming present, or more aware, or more beingness, when in fact what's been pointed to here is that actually you are that presence, you are that awareness. You know, there's a lot of practices that kind of enforce this idea of me doing a practice to become present, but no one really points like you do here Bob, I feel, very simply and clearly, that you actually are that presence awareness. As I say, when they say more, you're getting away from what you're told right from the start.

Omnipresence, omnipresence, omnipresence, total presence, total power, total intelligence. Can any more be added to the totality? Would it be the totality? Can anything be taken away from the totality? Would it be the totality? Where do you have to go and who can go there? Where can you get away to and who can get away from it? Isn't it recognised then that I am that? Or is it? No answer your question. The mind comes up with a hint that there's a little mouse somewhere and it's eating away at reality and it's going to destroy everything. My ego is disappointed to tell you the truth. Is this all there is?

My ego is disappointed. It has to be. What did Jack Nicholson say? This is as good as it gets. Should come to the advanced classes on Monday night. Level two. They're held upstairs. They cost more. There's a special initiation. And you'll really be disappointed. Yeah. Did you hear that one? Then you will be really disappointed. But that's the trouble, you see. We go on this so-called search and might be seeking seriously for years and years doing all sorts of practices. You see how simple it is. You've got a vested interest in the search. People continue on that path rather than dropping. You see what you're seeking.

But what you're seeking you already are, though. They carry on. No, no, no, no, no. That's a big water. Keep it in there. It's kind of like how someone was saying that the search perpetuates itself. And it feels a need to keep, to remain alive, so it keeps going on and on producing these thoughts. But the spiritual story is even worse because you come to it from a point of suffering and it gives you a little bit of solace for a time. And so you're even just holding on to it for dear life. So it's really scary to actually let go of that for what appears to be nothing and it is nothing.

That's why it's necessary to look at who is suffering. It's only this conceptual idea of me. Me is the cause of all my problems. Only a me that can be unhappy. Only a me that can be fearful, depressed, full of anxiety. So the depression, unhappiness, anxiety, fear are the effects of the cause of me. So that's all the so-called karma is, cause and effect. What happens if I investigate the cause me and see it's a conceptual fiction? There's nothing there. And I ask myself, can there be an effect without a cause? You realise that there can't be an effect without a cause, so what must happen to the effects?

If they've got nowhere to latch onto, there's no need to be fearful or anxious, where are they going to stay? So they don't have to be worked on, pulled apart, stripped away and analysed and gone on. And they fall away over themselves if there's no way from to fix it. Yeah, it's like a belief in a me is the only thing that gives, that causes you to give thoughts power. So once you feel it's okay to not be a me, and you feel it's okay to not keep trying to work it out. Yeah, exactly. What do you do then? You just want to pull it full stop.

The search is over. Not in, you know, not involved in the seeking. Do you fall apart? Do you disappear as the finisher again? I want to push back? Do you not? Do you still there? Yes, yes. Do you still there? Do you still there? Do you still there? I am. I am. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.