This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
Okay, just click on it once. Oh, you know, it stopped blinking. I suspect it's working now. Yeah. Okay, hopefully it's going to work now. And thank you, Annika. Let us know if there is anything better or worse, or is it the same? It was about the seeking, the idea of seeking. And we had a little conversation here before the meeting started that a lot of people here, not everyone, but a lot of people come here not because they are seekers, not because they want to find something, but because there is a joy in bringing that attention back to the source of attention. It is just a joy to keep remembering that substratum, that singularity, just to feed it with loving attention, bring it back.
Though they are people who are seeking, they are people who are... Wanting to find something that they think they don't already have or to become someone who they think they are not already are and Bob had this pointer he says look at the seeking look where is the seeking happening When are you seeking? You're not moving the chair or the sofa. You're not looking under the carpet. You always look.looking in the mind you're always looking amongst the concepts is there a better concept the better pointer you look for something to be understood to be grasped the idea of awakening or enlightenment the idea of being a better me or the supreme self or or something they all in the mind they all ideas so there is bob would say there is no way of finding the answer in the mind because whatever answer you're gonna find is gonna be a concept And what value does the concept have?
Like when you pause the thought or you go to sleep, that whatever you found is gone.Whatever concept about God or about yourself, it only lasts when you believe it. So it can't be final truth. The final truth cannot be found in the mind because it isn't hidden there. It isn't hidden full stop. But the mind is a vibration. It is constantly vibrating. So the truth is that which doesn't vibrate. It doesn't move. It doesn't change. So how could you find the changeless reality in the moving mind? In the mind that is constantly creating thoughts ideas images concepts how could the image or concept grasp the immovable background on which it arises so you can see that even the idea of seeking in the mind and well idea of seeking under the carpet or or seeking inside the brain is equally ridiculous because the carpet and the brain are also appearancesI'm going to see if there is any improvement with the sound.
Good morning, says Deborah. So I guess that is... Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, guys. So to look at seeking, to look at the whole notion of seeking, of trying to find something or add something, because as it is right now, it's not good. It is not good. I am not good. Life is not good. People are not good. What is this? What's that? If not another notion, another concept.So looking for the way out of conceptual belief is not through replacing it with another belief. It's not through replacing, oh, there is no good, so maybe I'll just make myself believe, I hypnotize myself to believe that no, it is all right.
And I'll compromise on everything just to, yeah, well, they say nothing is wrong anymore. Okay. I'll just make myself believe that. It's not going to work. Belief is an attribute of the mind. And the mind is fluctuation, vibration, change. Nothing stays the same. You can't hold on to a belief, positive or negative. They will fluctuate. Thoughts like clouds on the sky will move, will come and will go. What doesn't move and what is beyond and prior to belief, positive belief, negative belief, is already present. It doesn't have to be altered or modified or doesn't have to be found. Come here, Jenny. Yeah, I mean, come here.
Come this way.Yes, so see those cats, they live without any sense of belief. And he just said, there is something wrong in this moment. I'm not on your lap. But he didn't believe it. When the situation didn't change, the thought or the action or the urge moved on. There was no attachment to it. And now he's somewhere else looking for some other lab. So this is the presence in which everything happens. The thoughts are happening. There is no point in trying to get rid of all the beliefs or all thoughts. They will still come. The nature of the mind is to vibrate. The nature of thinking is to manufacture thoughts, is to express as thoughts, mental images.
And there is nothing wrong with that. It's quite amazing. It's quite brilliant. Wonderful, wonderful capacity. So thoughts will keep appearing, but if they are not fixated on, if they are not related to a self-center, they'll move on, just like the urge of a cat. There was no fixation. So it moved on. And same with us.thought or belief arises, I'm not good enough, or life is hostile, or I hate myself. And that belief is not taken on board. It is not related to me. It's not personal. It's just a thought arising in consciousness. What does it matter? How does it hurt? It came up. I did not think that.
And it moves on. It doesn't touch anything. It just moves like a cloud. So living from that point of freedom from thoughts, it doesn't mean being free from thoughts appearing.Tots will still appear just like sweat on the skin will appear when it's hot. Just like digestive juices will appear when there's food in the stomach. Freedom from thoughts is meant to be freedom from taking them personally, taking them on board, taking them as through the reference point of a me, as my thoughts. This is what makes them believed. The idea that, oh, I'm not good enough. That must be true. It occurs in my head. It must be true.Why?
It is just a thought, it's a passing cloud. If there is no self-centered or reference point in here, that cloud, that thought just moves on, just passes through. It's not taken. So may or may not reappear. And what does it matter? This is the true freedom. When thoughts are free to come and go. And there is no psychological suffering associated with relating those thoughts to a self-center on me.And then what is the seeking there? If the thought is just a thought, the doubt is just a thought, the urge to find something or the other is just a thought. The whole seeking is just a passing cloud.
So if the idea comes about, yes, but my life's not good enough. If I don't believe that thought, I won't change it. Hmm, what's that? Just thought. And if you look at that cut again, if his life is not good enough because he can't hop on my lap, the change will happen automatically. doesn't have to hold on to a thought for the change to happen. Life is changing of its own. It always does. There is nothing in life that doesn't change. If there is discomfort in the body, the urge will come up, whether the urge is labeled or is unlabeled, whether it is translated to a thought or is not translated.
If it's emotionally charged enough by that life essence, the change will follow. There is no requirement for me to complain about anything for the change to happen. Maybe. Anthony, can you get the pillow, the red pillow from behind you and give it to... No, no, there is a red one.Jimmy can have a cut on his lap. Without having scratches on the legs. Thank you. And the demonstration that the nature brings about the effortlessness of change. Look at this cat. Oh, he's hesitating right now. But yeah, he'll come along. He's done it before. And without the thought, without the complaint, without the idea, But if the idea comes up, because we are no different, we are the nature too.
We are just like every other nature. I don't have to think I am hungry to go and eat. Just like cat doesn't think he's hungry and he goes and eats. I don't have to think I'm cold. The body will let me know. And I don't have to think I need a jumper. The body again will let me know. And everything in this manner happens on the level prior to thinking. The thinking is just a translation. It comes and it narrates. And through that narration, when the thinking comes and tells me that this I need to do, this is not good enough, or I am not good enough, I need to improve myself, or I need to learn new skill.
If the thought translates it,What difference does that make? If it again, if it isn't taken on board and it isn't anymore causing any psychological suffering. It is just what's happening. The thought translating the urge into words, into sentences. What a wonderful phenomena. Done by no one happening on autopilot completely spontaneously like that pair it is a translation of the contentment in the body into that beautiful humming pairIn human pattern, it translates into symbolic language, into words, into sentences, into stories, speculations. And through that stories, life experiences itself in a much, much different setting. Instead of being a body, of being a limb of the body, or a cell of the body, or an organ of the body.
It can be the whole group. It can be the nation. It can be the whole humanity through the collective story. The possibility life gets through that amazing human capacity of joining and sharing the thought, the story. Wow, it's beautiful. But when the story is taken personally, when part of the story becomes the story of me, of the self-center, of someone sitting there, someone who can get it all wrong, who doesn't have it, who has to get it in the future. Someone who is not enough right now and someone who is going to die or get sick wow wow what a juicy story that produces for life and what a terror it produces for that dream character who believes itself separateAnd that belief of being separate dream character in a hostile world outside of me, that dream of being a person who can waste my own life by making wrong decision or taking a wrong choice.
Or who is guilty of doing the wrong things. Wow. What an incredible, incredible intensity that goes with it. What a suffering that goes with it. What if I never get it? What if I never get free? What if I will forever be separate? What if after a few decades of seeking, I will die still believing I'm a person? Says who? A thought. The thought appearing in the consciousness. When that thought is seen for what it is, instead of related to the separate self-centered, the body, the me, the person, what does it matter what it says? It is the belief, it is the me, the sense of that being personal, being serious, being important, being real.
That which causes the problem.What if that thought didn't occur? What if that thought didn't show up in that screen of consciousness, on that screen? Who would I be without it? What's wrong with right now if I don't think? Don't think about that. Don't have that thought. Let's have a look. Hmm, Kat doesn't have that thought. Doesn't say there is anything wrong. Even if she gets uncomfortable, there is still nothing wrong because you need the thought to say that something is wrong.You need the thought to complain about anything. You need the thought to feel separate from the whole world. Without the thought, what's happening? Just this.
You even need the thought to say just this. But really, without the thought, is there anything wrong? Seeing is still going on and the content is arising. The hearing, the tasting, the touching, the smelling, all of it is still going on as a natural functioning. With all that arises in it, the smell of the flowers or whatever arises in it is still happening effortlessly by itself. Thought is not required for any livingness and any functioning to appear. But thought is part of it too. And thought arises as the part of a natural functioning.And that thought brings up the story of me. And when that brings a thought of story of me, suddenly the seeing and what arises in the seeing is personal.
The fact that the carpet has been trashed by cats is personal. The fact that the weather is hot becomes personal. How come? It is just a simple happening. Without the thought, it's just as it is. With the thought, it gets important. It gets personal. It gets serious.So does it have anything to do with what's happening? With the thought, it is personal, it is serious. Without the thought, it is just as it is. It's obviously just the presence or the absence of a thought. Or better yet, presence and the absence of belief that the thought is mine and is personal. Because the thought can still occur.
And there's still nothing wrong with the thought. I can say I hate myself. I am not good enough. I can say it a thousand times. And it's just laughable. It doesn't touch anything. Presence of the thought is there. And it doesn't touch anything. Because there is nothing there for that thought to lodge. So even the presence of the thought does not change the fact that nothing is wrong, that everything is as it is. That is just that unique, ever fresh, present moment of aliveness, that radiance of existence showing up in this particular shape. That will never be the same again just now the content of seeing the hearing the tasting the touching the smelling the thoughts unique ever freshin that self-shining aliveness.
Right now. This is the freedom. When the thoughts can be present, like clouds on the sky, and they don't touch anything they don't change anything they're just translation they're not personal there is no need to seek the way out from the mind there's no way to seek the freedom from thoughts appearing they can still appear But you see them for what they are.Any thoughts? Thoughts are, but what about tomorrow? Or what about when I forget? What if the fire will consume my home? They're just thoughts. There's nothing to them. Unless there is a belief. And belief is that life essence fueling them, making them real, making them serious, making them believable.
Suddenly I can see the flames consuming the fire. Wow. And the fear steers in the body and the emotion makes it tremble. The belief. They're relating it to the self-center and making it appear real. Oh, I hate myself. Oh my gosh, if I make myself believe in that, there will be stress in the system. There will be perhaps even the idea of how do I get out of myself? Maybe a suicidal ideation or something. Or everybody else hates me. Believing this one, oh my gosh, how hostile. But what is it? It's just a line of words. It's just a sound appearing in silence with no validity.
What makes it valid? How that incredible, incredible show comes to feel so real, so convincing, so alive.You can think the thought. I mean, you can't think the thought. You will discover the thought arising. But you could be inspired to bring up, to let the thought arise that is completely unbelievable. I'm the elephant. That thought, what does it do? How does it hurt? Or this room is an Egyptian pyramid. That thought does nothing. Or the sky is pink. Does nothing. It doesn't create emotional response in the body. It doesn't create trembling.You can even think a thought which contains me. Oh, I am the, what Julia's thought was, I am the mother of the whole humans.
I'm the queen of the universe. If that thought is not believed, again, what does it cause? Nothing. You can see the difference between the thought that is just a dead mental activity, just the line of words or the sound, and the thought that causes emotional response. The thought that is taken on board is believed, is related to that self-center, the me. And then you can follow that thought and see, hmm, okay, who is it occurring to? Who is that me? Is there anybody there? Why is that thought so inflammatory? Why does it cause so much hurt? Is there really any reference point which makes it feel so real?
I can't think of the thought that would be real, but I can remember from... 10, 15 years, over 10 or 15 years ago, I thought, like, yeah, I'm unlovable or my partner doesn't love me.thought because it felt real because it resonated with something that was deeply believed in me it's straight away followed with mental images and found the evidence see this is i think that because of this and because of that and because of that and because of that and the whole whole whole story was supporting that idea And that idea was so tangible, so believable, that it completely crunched the body down. It created the breath became shallow.
There was no, the body was crunched just because of the idea. And the whole world, the whole dream. Is coming into existence through that resonation. If there is a belief in a self-center, someone or few people will tell you a nasty comment, will give you a harsh feedback, and that self-center will respond. Oh shit, maybe that's true. And they will be trembling and crunching and crushing and suffering. Instead of looking, hey, is there anybody there? Who is there? Who is there to be crushed? They may have a concept about you, the concept that is quite uncomfortable, ugly. But that's just their concept.What does it touch in the aliveness that you are?
If for a moment you stop the thinking, you pause the thought and you ask yourself, okay, without any thinking, What's happening? What is wrong? Without any thought, is there a self-center? What am I without the thought? And you will see only undeniable presence of consciousness. Luminous and radiant, hearing somebody else's harsh concept.Ah, wow. Maybe even survival instinct flaring up and responding, oh, maybe there is a danger. Maybe he'll get the gun and shoot me because he hates me. So there will be a vibration going through the body. Wow, amazing. And still, there is no taking on board of the concept. Because what am I is unknowable, is beyond concepts.
No one can know what they are. I cannot know what I am. How could I possibly? I will have to leave myself and look from outside, which makes no sense. It's impossible. Still not showing notification. Well, it's just a bad luck.So I cannot know what I am. How can anyone else know what they are and project it on me? They don't know either. They are looking through the lens of their conditioning. If someone will tell me, oh, I'm ugly and shallow and stupid, well, Where did that idea come from? From words they've learned, from concepts they've learned, from the past that they've experienced, from their definition of what the beauty and stupidity and shallowness is.
What does it have to do with me? They're projecting their own world. They're projecting themselves. They cannot, I cannot know what I am. They can only look through their own lenses and project stuff. What does it matter? And of course, there will be response that maybe there may not be a response. Because the system, the biocomputer learns. It learns from the feedback. If feedback is not taken personally, it is another beautiful wow. If it is taken personally, it is a tragedy, it is pain, it is suffering. And that suffering is not necessary. If we look at that center, what causes things to be taken personally?If you look at the nature of a search and instead of look for the concepts that will help me, liberate me, that will get me out of the suffering and find enlightenment for me, all concepts, all walking in your own mind, trying to find things amongst the concepts.
If instead you look, what is that self? Is there anybody there? What is that nature of reality supplying the power, supplying the life essence to that idea of me? Just like the electricity supplying itself to the globe and shining or lighting the lamp, the globe, showing us light. If the electricity is not supplied to that globe, there is no light. If the belief is not supplied to that idea of self-centered, the idea of me, there is no self-centeredness. There is no self-importance. There is no taking things personally. And how can you stop that supply?Can you? Or is it enough to just see the trick, to just see how the game is played, how the magic comes into existence, to see through that magic?
Instead of seeking for the way out, stop. And look at this moment right now. Look at the mystery of the magic of bringing the sense of things being personal. Out of nowhere to the thought, giving it validity, making it appear real, convincing. Wow, what a brilliant show. Taking things personally. It is about me. It is important. See what's happening to me. See what she did to me.Amazing. I see we can have notifications now because I suppose there may be comments. Yay! Yay! Okay, I'm going to include... And good morning, we have an audio. It's good, thank you very much. And that's it. There is no other comments from the community.
So I think it's time to invite...That was a magical spell, as always. So it's not personal. It's not personal in the sense that it's not delivered from a person, a harsh word, a mean comment. It's not personal because it's not received by a person. So in the delivery of that, God, you're an idiot. God, that was stupid. And, you know, you're also fat and ugly. It's not delivered by a person.It's actually just what's happening. In consciousness, your consciousness if you like, it's not separate from anything that's happening. It's literally what's happening which is you, us, that. It's not separate. You can laugh at it. It's like, wow, that's cool, you know.
I just said stuff that is interpreted in this, with the words and everything else, and mind, so-called meaning-making is mean and put down. Wow. Okay. And then it's gone. It's gone. Came and it left. It can make it seem like it's an effort to hang on to it even.It's just happening too, actually. Nothing ever happened. It comes up, it's gone. It's lost its vitality, as Bob used to say. No life in it anymore. gone. What is there, you know, there's a, the seeker can convince themselves with belief that they were once, for instance, very lonely person, a lonely child. I was a lonely child. Hold on to that concept.
It seems like holding on to that concept, but actually comes up spontaneous and new, unique, every time, in every expressing of it. It's never the same.And every time it's a new delusion. Just a new delusion. So none of it's personal. Nothing that's happening in this illusion, this dream, is personal. Apart from the fact that it is Nothing separate from you, us, that. It is intensely personal in that way. You cannot, you are not separate from it.But there's no individual to be insulted by anything. Some people find it difficult to understand this. A lot is made often of people being offended. I was offended by that comment.
You offended me with your remarks about this or that. And I used to not understand this or how, you know, the offence is delivered by someone and then it's received. But actually it's the receiver believing in the commentary that comes after that activates the offence.It's just vibration in space. That's all it is. Until there's a seeming belief in it. And no one's doing that energy of belief either. It's just all being registered. All being registered.in consciousness. Never ever outside of. Impossible. There is no getting out of consciousness, escaping the dream. And especially not through the mind. That's the joke. Get out of the suffering in consciousness.
No, no, there's no getting out.using the dream machine to get out of a dream. What a joke. I'll imagine better now. I'll imagine a better now than this one by imagining that I'm enlightened or imagining that my husband didn't die or imagining some better future right now. And I cover that uniqueness and freshness of this moment with mental images of something that is not happening. This what a beautiful cosmic joke it is i will imagine i will cover up this freshness and newness imagining a situation from some time ago when someone allegedly offended me and it felt so bad and i will wallow in it wow what a joke and i'll feel the feelings and i will feel the sensations it will be yummy and juicy oh you know what I'll go to that childhood where I'm a lonely child.
All the trauma. What a dreaming machine. And is there ever a past? Apart from this present moment in which you are imagining it or so-called recalling it. But you will see that recalling it is also imagining it. Because you ask a few other people and they will have completely, completely different records.Which one is right? They all concepts. How amazing in this freshness and newness of this moment, the attention is entertained by the dream of that seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, and the dream of what is not happening right now, the future. The dreads that may happen tomorrow if I'm not careful, my house can burn down.
Or the past, the traumas, all happening in the imagination, in that field of awareness. So colorful, so entertaining, so fresh. Isn't it amazing? And you look at this incredible capacity, this amazing capacity. If you don't say, wow, look again.Because none of it is done by anyone. It all works of itself on autopilot. What makes that memory from childhood come up? There you go. It comes, Ross. No? Yeah. It just moved. Ah, you mean the comment came up. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. No, it was just good morning. Thank you. But you go, you go now. I can say something if you like. Firstly, thanks for the spiel.
Beautiful. Thank you. And what it reminded me of was something I heard about a gated community in China. And, you know, the gate used to show up at the same time every morning and leave at the same time every night and let people in and out, open the gates and close the gates. And the wall collapsed to the gated community. And so people could come and go any time they wanted or anywhere. But the gate, everyone still used the gate. And the gateman still showed up every morning at the same time and left every night at the same time. I just feel reminded me of that because it's like there is still a sense, you know, all these thoughts are coming and going.
It's completely free. It can go anywhere. And yet the gateman's there going, oh, that's my thought.Ooh, you can come, you can go. That's brilliant. Just reminded me of that. Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Beautiful. Yay! Yay! And she's still going through the gate. It's the habit of me, the eye, the gatekeeper. Yeah. That's brilliant. What is presence? Just a question. Yeah.I was reading, I think he was Burmese, Dr. Tan Ku Wong or something like that. So having those three names just reminded me of Burmese. Teacher Uba King. But it was an interesting essay he wrote. He wrote about Tony Parsons, The Open Secret.And he more or less made a summary of that book.
And he talked a bit about Tony Parsons disappearing. And then there was just an unknowing, everything happening as it is, but there was no knowledge. There's no self-knowledge that had disappeared. So there was just an unknowing. But then this guy that's sort of translating it in a way, he said, so much for Tony Parsons. He's gone. And then he put another heading, presence. And he went on and again, taking the words of Tony Parsons, and he went on about presence. And he mentioned it about 25 times in the next pages. When Tony was talking about his experience of walking across a park in London. And what just whatin a casual sort of relaxed way, watching his feet and just feeling his feet on the ground and noticing that every sensation was different, every step was different from the one before, buried in pressure and weight.
And went on and he's talking about this presence. continually. And I wonder if we, by discussion, we could get some sense of what that really means. Because there are those times where one has a kind of a, vision of that experience when, right, the personal perspective drops away or expands and just keeps expanding. Like Tony Parsons, you realise that you are presence.And that expands to the sky, the touch of the air, the touch of the clothes on the skin. All the senses are heightened. So what sense do we get of that presence?Just reading that through the week just made me much more aware of that expanding consciousness.
Yeah, so what is it for you? The presence? Just the awareness of the content? Of happening? Well, in this company,It seems that there's always a quiet presence that's in the room. Others might have something that comes to mind that's more illuminating. Just Bob's words, non-conceptual awareness, just without concepts. That's what occurs to me when you say that. I don't know whether this is Bob, but just that that's all there is at the time, like whatever that sensation is, like sinking into that sensation as being everything.But the mind's very quick to jump in and like it's so quick to label it. I control it or even claim it.
But that's what occurred to me with the presence. It's not even a word presence. It's just that non-conceptual awareness of whatever it is and experiencing it. For me, it's that sense of I am-ness that Nisakata talks to. Beingness and one thing that always like points to presence orsees the endlessness of it is, can you find an edge to your presence? And as soon as I find, try and like locate this edge to presence or locate an edge to I am-ness. Sort of just shows that that's all there is. I can't find an edge. It's all just now happening. Yeah, within awareness, but also just awareness.I agree with you, Ross, that in this room it seems presence is very easily experienceable.
That's something that, I guess, especially when you're talking catch or anyone in the room, we're just tuned into that frequency. It does seem that it's like one of many words that we use to describethe direct experience outside of thought in a sense it's like thought in and of itself has no capacity to explain or experience the underlying reality because it's it's uh like a byproduct or a It's like a subset almost of that reality or an expression of that reality in itself can't explain or perceive the reality from which it comes. And so the word presence almost to me seems to be just the word that we apply when we are experiencing that which is prior to thought and that which expresses or creates thought and and the reason we even have a word for it is because so much of our daily lives is identified with thought which in being identified with that the perception is that we aren't present.
Like in that identification, we appear to lose that presence of which ultimately thought is still an expression of presence. But because it's like three steps down the road, it's...it appears to be separate from it. And then when we're in those moments where thought may still be going on, but our primary identification is not wrapped up in the thought, then we experience that beautiful presence. And it seems to be like, and then it's obvious that thought isn't separate from that or that like we weren't present so to say so to speak um But it's, yeah, that seems to be what the word points to for me.
But it also is the same as when we say unbound consciousness or consciousness itself. Or, you know, there seems to be so many words that we use to describe this one thing that is ultimately all there is. But we lose. appear to lose sight of it by being identified with a subset of that. Yeah, I think that's, that'd be my attempt at interpreting what I think presence is. I also think it's because it's always here and so ordinary, so easily just overlooked and just like taken for granted. And even if like you look at all the different languages, they're all built around that first initial.
Concept of I am and then language moves from there and it just yeah made me start thinking about Descartes saying I think therefore I am more like an identification of the ego rather than core presence or self And then I heard like Eckhart Tolle talking about I am, therefore I think. It's like from presence, everything emerges. But because it is so ordinary and here, now, it's easily overlooked.Thank you. You want to have a go? Come on, go. Was saying and this is thank you this was beautiful that presence presence he would have the play with the words pre sense something that is prior to sensory experiences but it's not separated from it it's like presence is being present is like being just being existence pure existence aliveness Can anyone stop being present right now?
Or stop being alive or stop existing being is that substratum that very very base that pure singularity of existence like you like you said the i amness the existence prior to the obscuration because existence is still there yes three steps down the the thoughts the mental images the tomorrow the what is not happening show played in the in the imagination uh it hides it it obscures it but Even without any obscuration, what happens? Presence cannot be sensed because it's pre-sensory, prior to sensory.It doesn't have temperature, so you can't say it's cold or hot. It doesn't have dimensions, so you can't say it's big or small.
It doesn't have strength. We say, oh, the presence is strong. It isn't. It's always the same. That because it's always the same, it's the same presence in the cut. And it's the same presence in a tree because it's the same. You can only differentiate it if it had qualities. It is more luminous or more light or less light or dark. No, it's always the same. It's the existence. It's always the same. So the presence, you can't stop being. You can completely, completely overlook it, ignore it, forget it, and engage full throttle of the whole attention, full processing capacity in dreaming, taking it completely for granted.
But it is still there, as strong and as shining and as obviously, undeniably underlying the whole imagination, the whole show. Presence is a base. It's never not here. It is what you are. It's one of the labels, one of the names we put on it. Because it is always there. When the thought is not, you are present. When the dreaming is not, when you sleep, there's still presence. But hey, I don't know. I don't remember. I can't even say I am.Well, the fact that you don't remember doesn't prove anything or disprove anything. Whenever you look, the presence is there. It's never not here. So as far as you can tell, where you are, presence is.
So you might as well call yourself that presence. And I think we have some comments. Tanya says, so what about if you don't require to spend as much time with your mother as she seems to want of you? What if your husband is depressed? How to help them and respect your needs also? Or is this all just thought and whatever is needed, life will move this body to do or say whatever is needed and I am not responsible for them. Beautifully put, Tanya. Wonderful. I love how you answer your own questions. Yeah, absolutely. There is no sense, you know, ability to respond is already given by life.
Whatever you are conditioned to do, act with life. And life will act and do through you as you and you are not the doer you can't get anything right or wrong things will happen thingswill arise actions will happen and geoti says a great spiel as always cut thank you can you please talk a bit about reality truth as well there seems to be clarity around workings of the mind a bit here and there curiosity about what who does it all appear to hope the question makes sense Yeah, beautiful. You could say, Jyoti, that everything appears in that presence, in that consciousness, in that awareness, in that existence, the being.
But is there anyone who claims this is my being? This is me, the person, me, the body, or me, the traumatized child who grew to be an adult? No, it's just pure happening. Like the screen in which the movie is played doesn't say, oh, this is my movie. The movie is happening to me. It doesn't say anything at all. You are the presence, you are the consciousness. In you all the dreams appear, including the dream of me, including the dream of things being personal and related to a person. And reality, definition of reality is that which never changes. See if that presence ever changes. It may get obscured.
See, every time you look, you are being. If that being ever changes,Are you being less or more when you are watching a movie? Are you being less or more when you are asleep? The being is still. And that being is the reality. As far as we know, that never changes. And you can't even say about reality that it has a separate existence. So you can't even say that the being is, because you can't separate it from anything else. Everything has a being. Separation comes only from labeling. I am being Kat, she's being Tanya, this is another Kat. Those are labels. The being is equal. It is just the trick of perception and the trick of language that separates the whole being into all 10,000 things appearing in that being.
So in that being, the body appears as Kat, the body appears as Tanya, the body appears as another Kat. But this is still the being with all those different labels put on it, inseparable. The whole field of presence, the whole field of happening of consciousness is only separated by the mind trick, the language. And why not? Makes the dream so much more colorful. And Charles replies to Tanya's comments. So what about if you don't require to spend as much time with your mother?and Charles Lee Price to that. You raise a very good point, Tanya, bearing in mind that it's easy for me to sit here and pontificate about this, but drawing on the combination of my knowledge and conscious experience, I'd say, go with your heart, consciously.
That's beautiful. Saying go with your heart is just really let life, let life resolve it. Because it's the life that gives you the feelings, the thoughts, the ideas, the urges to act. It's all life, the only doer. And Jyoti says, thank you.Just this. Nothing else. Just this. As it is. As it is. That's it. I don't even know what aliveness is. I've never not been. Yes. How can I tell you what a lot of this is? Don't have a mind memory to compare it to. Just this. Nothing else. Choiceless. Effortless. Happening. Flat.To describe aliveness, you're just really describing seeming sensations in the body. You'll be talking about breathing, heartbeats.
Oh, but there's an energy or something. Is there? Is there? You're imagining. It's imagining. It's just that. There's another word for it. There'll never be a word for it. Just knowing, knowing, happening, too much words already. Prior to concepts, prior to words, beyond words, beyond mind. Title of Bob's book. So that's it.But you know what? You can't get out of it. It can't not be. Just going back to what Ross said, that's one of the traps that I've had for many years because you read something like Tony Parsons and there's this big experience. There's this big change and all of a sudden everything's changed. And that's a real trap.
Yes. Because you're just searching for that, searching for that, searching for that. So, yeah, that's just an interesting point. Yeah, so looking for it, we're never going to get it. But if Tony is saying, Tony is walking around going, I am now present. And Tony Parsons is no more. Well, Tony Parsons never was. And there was never not presence. Not presence now and wasn't yesterday and might not be in the future. That's a trap. It's just what's happening. Would we, as you say, you know, we end up using the only tool in the dream, the communication, which is words. And it's, you know, even the best pointers, the best words, the most golden concepts, the purest of the pure is too much and not enough at the same time.So you have to, yes, do just blah, blah.
It's only the looking, the invitation to investigate. Another radical idea to just throw into the ring. When I am arises in our own experience, what happens in that moment?Become self-aware. Become self-aware. Is that everyone's experience? Well, I would say the I am still got a point of view. So it's before the I am. That's the I and then it's before the I.when you say I am. So if I think of I am, it's like a view. So it's like for me personally, if I think I am, there's a view here. And it can even be not separate. I bet it feels like it's a view.
But before that I am, I exist, there's an I. If we step back and back, there's something before the I. Because to be the view, so subject and object, something has to be here before the subject and the object. There's something here that's present for both. That's before the I am, before the I.So the presence arises and in that I arise. It doesn't arise. It never goes. It never leaves. It's always there exactly as is. The best if the... A helpful pointer, and it's a practical pointer, is when Bob says, would say, can you not be? Bang. Can you not be? It doesn't require you to label.
What you are you talking about? It's asking. No, you ask yourself. You ask yourself, look, can there not be being? Can the presence arise? Can it ever be absent?If it can't be absent, then it can't arise. The thought I am, yes, you can speak that thought. Now there is no thought spoken and now the thought is spoken. But it happens in the presence that doesn't arise. It has no beginning, no end. It's timeless, birthless, deathless, beginningless. Can you describe the moment of presence arising? Well, it can arise in the same way as John Donne describes it. Forget about anyone else's description. I'm sorry to cut you off.
Forget about anyone else's description of presence or whatever. The invitation is to investigate. Can you not be? Let's just forget about trying to analyze somebody else's description of being present. Rubbish. Can you not be? When I'm not conscious. When is it? Is it now? It's not now. When is it? In imagination, right? Yeah. Yeah. So how about now? See, if you stop being for a moment, then you will be able to describe how the presence is arising, and then we can continue with the arising. But if you can't stop,being then the presence can cannot arise it is always there even when you wake up from the dream it's already there you don't have to wait for it to come along to come online it's always there always whenever you look never arising If it was to arise, you would be prior to it.
You would be witnessing the arising of presence, then you could actually describe it how it happens. But you can never witness arising of presence or arising of being. And if you could witness it, that would not be you. That's it. That's why we say, you know, this is something that never changes. This is the reality. It's never not here. It's always here. The word I am or the identification as a self, yes, that can come and go. The thought can come and go. The idea can come and go. But it comes and goes on that pre-sense, on that existence which is there before and after and throughout that appearance.So I find all these pointers really interesting because Some of the best ones that I've heard was Bob saying a non-conceptual, ever-fresh present awareness.
I've heard Swami Swarupriyananda, the head of the Advan Society in New York, say, Start to simplify it. He says awareness plus obstacle equals experience. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, that's a good one. And one of them that I heard that has allowed me to...Detach and relax, which was awesome. Was that from which everything comes. For some reason, it just makes everything reveal to me, and I can see. The weight of my feet on the floor, positioning of my body, Consistent ringing in my ears.The wind moving trees outside. The space, people. And so I can, I'm seeing my mind pick out these certain things that are already all there.
And so it's a beautiful place to resonate in. And so for some reason, it just works really well with me. Just that idea, that from which everything comes. For whatever reason. It's a beautiful indication to look at the source. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. That from which everything comes. Lovely. Comes and occurs in and plays out in and is not separate from everything. Just that. So just seeing the mind pick out certain things and not only is it picking out certain things that are obviously there, but it reveals the thoughts. All of it for me. Yeah. Something that really stood out in your spiel, Thraikart, was that, like, the concepts we have of other people, like, each person in this room would have a different concept about each person in the room.
And none of them are right.So I think that's important because that really relaxes. The offensiveness of certain things, just to realise that the concept that someone would have on a memory or an event happening isn't actually the reality of what you are. So that really stood out because... It's so true, isn't it? Yeah, it is. We will, like, it happens. Like, we have concepts about other people and certain events and memories, and we go, oh, that person did that, that person did this. But none of them can be really true. And the same about the concept about ourselves. Yes. Yeah. Find out the concept about ourselves.
Yes, that's true. Yeah. That is very true. Especially that. Because that's the source of all the psychological suffering, you know? The idea that I'm me, I'm separate, I'm a person. Bob would say, you know, after all, I'm only human. He says, that's the worst of them. That's the worst concept. I'm only human. You've got to forgive me my little errors and, you know, character defects. I'm only human. I'm nothing but a human. Really?You are the universal consciousness, the pure presence that never fades, that is a substratum, that is that which everything comes from, the life, the... Cognizing emptiness, the consciousness, the whole, Shabang! After all, I'm only human.
Just come on. Some people, especially men, especially in some environments, will say, oh, she's only a woman. What can you expect? She's just a woman. I'm not. I'm not just a woman. I'm not just a human. I'm not a person. I'm not the mind. I'm not the body. How would I even buy up into those ideas if I wasn't hypnotized through the conditioning of believing in those concepts which I could only believe because I've learned language and learned words? Without that, Presence of existence, presence of awareness, right here, right now, luminous, ever fresh, self-shining. That's all there is. The idea that I am the dress that I'm wearing, or I am the car that I'm driving.
What an idea, what a dream. It's not a bad dream for the purpose of navigating and connecting with other.dreamers and creating a collective dream of being a nation of being a group of non-dualists or whatever the concept of women or men but it's still a dream it can't be experienced it can only be believed i have to believe first in the world i have to believe that i'm separate and then start defining that separateness and in the direct experience if i push down all the ideas all the concepts all the language how can i possibly separate myself from this moment now from this presence I cannot separate myself from anything without labels.This is I, the world arising, including this body, including all the other bodies.
All of it in the direct experience. This is it. This is I. And it is limitless. It doesn't end with the sky or imagination. It doesn't end anywhere. It's just right here. It has no space, no circumference. You can't define it without the concept. It's just this. And you can't even say what's I or what's not I, because even that is a division, it's a concept. And we have geotis never changing and ever changing resonates. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, that's the beauty. And also that I love those little mind facts when you actually undo any assertions that you can do, that you can take or make on the appearance.
Appearance is not real, is Maya. It is an illusion. It's just an appearance. Well, is it really just an appearance? Look at this.Can you really say it doesn't exist? Well, it appears to exist. It appears real. That's the brilliance of it. Any dream, any idea, even a belief in separate center, it appears real. You can't completely negate it. You can't completely dismiss it. Appearance in the mirror, reflections in the mirror, are they not there? They're very, very much there. This is a beautiful mirror. Oh, they're there. Yeah. And can I grab one? Can I remove them from there? I can't. So they neither real nor unreal.
They neither appear nor they not appear. There's nothing that can be said about it. And the same about everything else. The nature of everything is empty. Everything is empty of their self-independent nature, cannot be separated from the consciousness in which it arises. So we can say it's not real. And yet it appears. So it exists and it doesn't. Any definition requires language, and language is duality, division. Language speaks through pairs of opposites, and this is beyond the pairs of opposites, beyond description, beyond mind.Beyond words. Yes. Again, Bob's book comes into the picture. And that's the beauty of it. Because instead of saying, this is like this, or this is not like this, discard all the concepts.
Like one of the idea of investigating is neti neti. I'm not this body. I'm not this thoughts. I'm not this thinking. I'm not this identity. I'm not this world. Good enough. But really? If I am the totality, how can I possibly exclude this body or any other? So the pointer is dead. Okay, so how about inclusion? Okay, I am this and that and that and that. I am all that. I am everything. Well, really? Just get back to the direct experience. How are you this cut? To the exclusion of everything else. Nonsense. So that pointer is dead too. Okay, so I'm both and I'm neither.
But that's beyond comprehension. How helpful is that? Wonderful. Pointers are only an invitation to resonate and remember, re-remember or recognize of what you've always known since ever. The pure knowing, the knowing, not I know about this or I know that, no, is the pure capacity.for knowing the existence that is undeniably here it is known the presence that you can't stop it is known the knowing of the presence is already here never gone anywhere doesn't need any pointers doesn't need to be discovered found doesn't need to be understood The knowing of existence can't stop it. Knowing and being are inseparable. One is the aspect of the other, like try to be and not know about it.
I mean, you know, you can technically create a situation in which you are drunk or unconscious, but then the experience of being is gone too. When the experience of being is there, it's obviously present in consciousness, it's known. And is present as consciousness because they are not two and the other went around as well try to switch off the being and keep the knowing you can't it's like the fire and flame or the fire and heat described as two things one is the fire is light another one is a heat is the radiance of the fire and production of that heat but can you separate one from the other the two aspects of the of of the arising just like being and knowing the presence the presence awareness or intelligence energyor cognizing emptiness.
They're just labels. But they point out to that which you can't deny, to that which you already are experiencing. I like that idea Anthony said about awareness plus obstacle is experience. But you can unify it, boil it down to experience ink. Bob's beautiful contribution into that ink, collapsing of duality, of experience and the experience, into the experiencing, one seamless activity, the activity of knowing, intelligence, energy, the activity of being, activity of experiencing, activity of seeing. Now the mind comes and divides it. This is I. And this is it. I am doing the seeing and applying it to it. What a nonsense. Seeing is happening through the available means.
Seeing is happening through this one and this one and all of that. The seeing is activated. The seeing is like an electromagnetic wave that is, you know, you switch 10 TVs and all of them are seeing. If they have a little camera in them. Seeing is the capacity that intelligence, that life, utilizes through the body. When the body is off, the seeing is off. But it is not the body does it. The body is just transmitter, receiver.of that capacity which is already potentially there and then it's actualized through the through the vehicle and you know all this but you believe that you don't And so you outsource.
Yeah, look for the perfect pointer or the perfect this or the perfect that, but all of which are just invitations to look really robustly, you know, with the... And you will see that no one's asking you to look. No one's being asked to look. There's no one that's looking. There's nothing to be found. There's just what's happening. Everything else is imagined.It does, it seems like when you really look, like, really look closely at your direct experience, like, and I say you, obviously, but, you know, yeah, when you really look closely, there is... You can't find an I or an object, even like you're saying, Kat, like it's like believing I am the world or I am this.
It's as soon as a thought comes in that's trying to... To explain it, then you've kind of shifted away from the direct experience. Because the direct experience is just the sensory perceptions that are bombarding you and You know, if you've got your eyes open, that's one. If they're closed, there's others. But ultimately, the, you know, the separating the senses in and of itself is just an act of the mind that has come in and said, this sense is different to this sense is different to this sense. It's all just pure experiencing. AndIt's funny, like when you're saying, Ross, like presence arises, it's almost like the exact inverse where when you're directly examining experience or experiencing, then the mind pops in and says, oh, presence arose.
But actually what was happening in that moment is presence fell away, so to speak, and the mind arose. And it's the mind that falls away and comes in and like fluctuates in and out. So it's, yeah, it's almost like the direct inverse of presence arising. Presence is, is, and the mind arises and falls away. And it's not separate from that experience. Absolutely not. Yeah. It's still that. But yeah, it's just such a direct experiencing without, it's either pure objectivity or pure subjectivity, but it's, there's just a... You always get the feeling it's like you're in a, you've been, you're standing in a river and then you're just going with the river.
And it's like you're in, there's nothing but the flow. You can't perceive the movement of the water. You're just still, but there's,no, it's just one action that's a constant, I don't know, action. I can't speak of it. If you were the river, how could you experience yourself without fooling yourself that you weren't the river? Yes, exactly. Hearing you talk about everything and nothing, Kat, and hearing you talk about the river, and just the whole thing of trying to explain something that can't be explained, reminded me of this passage, again, from Nisargadatta. Love says I'm everything. Wisdom says I'm nothing. And between these two valleys, my life flows.
What a beautiful poetic description. Yeah. Everybody is welcome to come up with their own poetic, beautiful description of their own experience. No requirement to outsource from any brilliant sage or guru or anything. It's not, the invitation is, Do it. Do it. The courage to do it. Yeah, Bob would say,You know, get that self-center out of the way and you will be amazed what incredible gifts and talents are going to shine through. It's usually that self-center, that belief, unquestioned acceptance of the idea that there is someone here inside driving the bus that is the source of all self-sabotage. Because, oh, what they're going to think of me, what they're going to say about me.
It's questioning that arising mind, like you say, the mind arising. Presence always shines of its own, self-shining. But the obscuration, mind, imagination comes and obscures it. The screen is always blank, is always empty, like space, like sky. And the clouds are rising of imagination. And obscure it seemingly because the presence is never touched by any of it but when you see the magic trick behind that arising when we see what you know imagination arising my goodness please never stop come on it's just the most wonderful thing creative imagination art creativity passion wow yes but if you see through the magic trick in which it within that arising imagination there is a fake reference point formed and language refers everything that arises to that reference point and creates psychological suffering creates the illusionthat this is happening to me this is personal and i am this little thing separate from the universe the universe is hostile they all after me they're gonna out to get me this is the source of suffering but when you see how it how that magic trick is being played When you see the joke of it, wow, it may still keep arising just to make you laugh, just to make you say wow.And just to appreciate.
All Shabbat. Great, great, great chat. Yay. Yeah. And thank you. Thank you, everyone, for contributing. Thank you, Ross, for bringing up the spark, the questions, and everyone for, yeah. And we're going to go and have a lunch.