This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
So we have Miranda and Cristina, Sim, Taz, Jimmy, Ross, Dino and there we are. If you can just plug it.Okay, so welcome. Does anyone want to do the introduction? Dini, you want to do the introduction? No? Okay. So we're doing the introduction then. So the basic, basic predicament is that people are searching for enlightenment, for some supreme states, for God, for themselves. But the search is really for the sense of completeness, for the sense of relaxation in a system, for not suffering, for end of suffering. They have different names for it. In every religion there are promises made that in the future, maybe in the next life or maybe after the body dies, there will be that completeness and that consolation that heaven found.
Non-duality points out that what we are seeking is already present. We just ignore it. We just miss out on recognizing it. That peace, which in Christian language is the peace that passes all understanding, is already here underneath the turmoil, especially the turmoil of seeking. Because the whole seaSeeking is a rejection of this moment as it shows up. The seeking is the assumption that this moment, the way the universe expresses in this moment, as this moment, is not right. There is something wrong, there is something missing. The sense of and then the imagination says what is missing maybe the god is missing or maybe the peace or maybe pleasure or some supreme state cosmic union whatever the imagination comes up with that's what is allegedly not here and that is something that has to be gotten or achieved or found through some and then again different different schools and religions offer methods of how to find this thing that is not right here right now you gotta either meditate or pray or go to churches or do something or the other And then in the future, that state will be achieved.
And what we point out is that the state is a stateless state. It isn't something to be entered or achieved by someone who is... Going to get better now in the future.No sense, does it? So what we are overlooking, what we are missing out is if we look at where the attention is focused, it is always focused on what is not, what is missing, on complaining. That is the human condition. Always wanting what is not, never wanting what one's got. So, and then the rest of the poem goes, as a rule, a man is full. And it's hot, it wants it cool. And it's cool, it wants it hot.
Never wanting what it's got. Always wanting what it's not. So that wanting... Again, in Buddhism it says the craving and aversion are the source of all suffering. The wanting, wanting what is not. So now, what is that wanting and why is it here? And how to get rid of the wanting and who would be doing it? So again, it isn't, there is nothing to do underneath that energy of wanting. There is that peace that passes all understanding that we all miss out because the attention goes to the wanting, goes to the rejecting this moment, complaining, judging it. So, again, the pointers that Bob would give in this moment would be just...watch the mind just see how the attention how the mind functions how it operates and how it inherently serving the life essence protecting the life essence providing safety narrating the circumstances does create the illusion of rejection of this moment by wanting what is not by looking for problems to solve so this movement of attention or this mind is not what we are it's not who we are It's just a software, it's just a self-preservation program that preserves this vehicle for that life essence that is animating it to continue experiencing and expressing itself.
And now that may sound a bit dualistic, that there is a vehicle and there is an animating life that is making that vehicle experience and express. And yes, all the pointers sound dualistic because language is the language of duality. The structure of language is a symbolic language, so it always objectifies things. And to objectify something, you kind of isolate it from its background, whatever it is.and not this, the space around it. So symbolic language, and the same applies to the sounds. The sounds, the silence, the sights, and the objects in the space. So the duality of language makes pointers also dualistic. So Bob would always invite people not to look with their minds, but rather listen with the heart for the resonation, for something that strikes a chord.
Something that feels like yeah I kind of know it yeah deep inside of course you know when he asks are you this corpse or are you the life that animates it he would say you know if you didn't see the dead body Go and look at the dead animal, the chicken in the shop. Is that, you know, the corpse? Is that who you are, what you are? Or is the aliveness? What we even as a society, as the humanity, value the highest is aliveness. We preserve life. We protect life. This is what matters. We know it innately. We don't really need to be told. I'm not my hand.
I'm not my leg. I'm not the sum total of the skin and the inner organs. I don't even know how they function. I have no idea how the...seeing functions, how the thinking is done, how to create the electrical impulses. I have no idea. The vehicle is like self-organizing universes, trillions of different entities there, cells and bacterias and all the other stuff. Coexisting to create that vehicle and then there is the consciousness there is the life essence that life essence moving through this body creates the capacity of seeing corpse can't see and the hearing corpse can't hear can't speak can't touch can't taste can't experience anything so the life life as the pure potentiality through the human body has creates expresses itself as the capacity of seeing hearing tasting touching smelling and thinking through other animals it has different capacities the same life essence the same energy has the capacity dolphins or bats they have different senses they have sonars and and and birds have different capacities they can fly and and fish they can breathe air extracted from the from the water.
So it is the same essence expressing through different vehicles and us different vehicles because beingand energy of course the sound is energy also so it expresses a sound it expresses as light it expresses as the interpretation of everything that's around this is still energy the body itself is still energy matter is still energy it is all movement of energy So one of the titles of Bob's book is One Essence, Experiencing and Expressing as Everything, Appearing, Experiencing and Expressing as Everything. It's the one essence, the energy, the potentiality that we can't even say that it exists because it's not objectifiable. Potentiality is not... An object even the energy as a movement is not really an object and the potential for for expression is emptiness and the expression itself is the form so this is where the buddhism points that emptiness is form potentiality is actuality it's just a different it's the flip side of the coin they a collapse of the duality in the emptiness being formed form being emptiness the appearance neither existing nor non-existing So it isn't really any hard philosophy.
It can be experienced any moment through the daydreaming. When we daydream about tomorrow, well, does it exist or it doesn't?or when we sleep at night and there is a dream, the whole universe arising in a dream, does it exist or it doesn't? So we can see how that whole material universe is really constructed through the thinking, through the belief. When we believe that the earth is flat, it is flat. And you can't convince the flat earth and society that it is otherwise, because the belief solidifies the experience and make it seemingly real. Yes, and same in the dream. When you're dreaming at night and you're arguing with someone or you're flying, the experience seems very, very real.
So the capacity of that one life essence to express as absolutely everything and capacity of that life essence to also feed it with that energy of belief, which is not two things. It's not that there is a potential or a thought and then there is a belief that fuels it. They're inseparable. They're really one thing. It's just the pointing that makes it sound like there are two. So the act of believing, which is again spontaneous, just like act of seeing. The seeing, nobody does the seeing. The seeing is a capacity that the body has. And the life essence giving that animating capacity for...that body makes that seeing happen and then there is another capacity which is the interpreting so when we look around the things are the furnitures the walls the people whatever it is is already known But the little baby, when it is born, it doesn't have that capacity to recognize things yet.
It didn't learn what the things are. It didn't label things. So the capacity for seeing is there, but whatever is being seen is not interpreted into the coherent world. That programming is yet to come, is yet to happen. So when we see the way the universe come into existence through the act of programmers modeled it from watching little children, learning to recognize faces, learning to recognize voices. So we can see how those things are. Okay. How those little programs create that illusion of coherent reality. And you can also see how the whole experiencing And the illusion of the experiencer being inside, the seer, that there is someone inside there that does.the seeing that looks out from inside to outside, how that is also a piece of a software.
When you speak to your Siri or your chat GPT or whatever assistant you're using in your phone, you will get your answers and then you will get the prompt questions. How else can I help you? What else would you like to explore? I can find it for you. I can design it for you. So who is that I that says I can do it, I can help you, I can design it? There is no one there, we know that. And yet it functions and it translates and through the language it seems like there is someone there who is actually having a conversation with you, who is doing the tasks for you.
And it is the same with that human body-mind pattern. It feels like there is some agency inside, making decisions, taking choices, doing the seeing, doing the thinking. And yet, if you look, you look inside, all you can ever find is the undeniable sense of existence. You know for certain that you exist. There is an existence. There is no doubt about it. Just like a baby, even though it doesn't have the word I yet, it doesn't translate it to the idea that I, this little body, or I, the...this bigger body exists, the existence is there, the consciousness is present. So somewhere along the line, that existence through the language, through the identification program, got limited into that small vehicle.
So now, I am not just the life essence, just the pure potentiality, the pure consciousness looking out through this particular vehicle, just like I am as a consciousness looking out through any other vehicle, through every bird in the sky and every fish in the sea. And experiencing myself as the energy, as the aliveness through absolutely everything. Now it feels like I am trapped in here. I am the little seeker. I'm a little me trapped in the body. How do I get out of it? How do I find oneness? How do I recognize myself as the totality or the absolute? Well, if I already sealed with the energy of belief the idea that I am a little thingy there, little agency there, well, that's it.
The only way out is...unless the belief is questioned. But who is going to do that? Not the little thing. Because that little thing for that is already too late. If there is a belief that there is some imposter or not even imposter, that this is a me, that there is something inside that is called me and this is I, this is my true identity. Well, how do I get out of myself? I can't. So the investigation is really, and the whole awakening from the nightmare of being separate is really just the recognition that that imagined little agency that we imagine that is there, that makes decisions and choices and mistakes and is guilty of this, that and the other, that this is just a piece of software.
This is not who I am. I am the existence. I am the presence. I am the consciousness. And within me, within that consciousness, there is a body and there is an agency, there is a software which translates and relates everything as if there was some entity there. So the seeing is happening and the interpreting services will say, oh, this is I, I am seeing. Now hearing is happening. Oh, this is I. I am hearing.this, that and the other. And it is practical and it is beautiful and it's nothing wrong with the way of using language in this way. It is perfectly justifiable in a way of communicating.
But if I imagine that this eye, which is actually hearing that speaking going on, or is actually seeing the room, that if I imagine that this eye is a separate entity and it's like solid little thing that is not good enough is unworthy or is is too old or too young or too fat or too slim or any associations with that any sets of concepts that i believe to be me then of course there is a sense of separation. Because if I am this, I'm not the opposite and I'm not the totality. And that breeds the sense of isolation, sense of separation and suffering, all the psychological suffering.
Because of course that brilliant instrument which protects the body and which has the function of providing safety and solving problems will latch onto it straight away. And if I'm not good enough, oh, okay, how is that going to motivate me? Oh, you're stupid. You should be doing more of this. Oh, you shouldn't be eating this. Oh, you shouldn't be. And all that nightmare of the inner critic comes.along and tortures and if there is a belief that it tortures me because I am something small there inside well then it becomes really really hard really tough the the beautiful dream called life becomes a nightmare and it doesn't really have to be this way because it is really just to relax and recognize that this is not how the things are being simulated.
This is not how the direct experience without the interpretation, which is verifiable right now, would actually narrate it. If I look at the direct experience without thought telling me what it means, the direct experience is the existence. But it doesn't tell me that it is existence of some entity or some soul or ego or whatever the concept is. It is just the existence. It's undeniably here.And again, direct experiences of seeing. Yes, there is seeing happening. Well, can't deny that. But the idea that there is a little someone that is doing it is a translation. If there really is a someone that is doing it, well, okay, let's see if I can get it to stop.
Eyes open, stop the thing, hmm, that doesn't really work. Or hearing, hmm, or thinking perhaps, stop thinking. That was a beautiful pointer that Bob would always offer and, ah, it's so humbling. Do you know what's your next thought gonna be?So humbling. You look and you wait. And you may even notice the mind just beating around the bush and trying to get out of the conundrum. Oh, shit. Okay, I'll think the thought. Oh, too late. You just did. I'll think the thought. And did you know? If I didn't relate Bob's question, would you even know that's what's going to arise? Nobody knows what's their next thought going to be.
Because thoughts are also inseparable from the totality. The thought may come from some impulse from within, like rumbling belly. Or the thought may come from the perception landing on the clouded sky or landed on another person. They come spontaneously. No one has control over them. And if there is an illusion of control, that illusion of control is just another thought. And that illusion of control, of course, is part of the whole appearance. Illusion of manifesting stuff, illusion of whatever it is, it all functions in the same way, absolutely spontaneously through the inspiration, inseparably. So even people who are deeply with both hands and legs into manifesting their own reality, they are just machines perpetuating the conditioning.and the program being inspired to give attention to this and nothing else.
And it may work in some cases, absolutely. If the inspiration is strong enough and there is no diversion, yeah. But there is no one doing even that. There is no one to take credit even for that. Because if the thought didn't come first, well, none of it would be even possible. So if you actually see how this brilliant dream is completely interconnected, how everything influences everything else, it co-arises interdependently. The body is interdependent with all the elements around it, with the air, water, fire, earth, with the movement of subatomic particles within the bloodstream and atoms and all that. Completely interdependent with the world, completely depending on everything in the environment.
And so are the thoughts including thoughts of being separate identity which is again part of cultural conditioning apparently there are cultures that form their identity in slightly different ways and the identity is more kind of like a group consciousness than the individualized consciousness It doesn't matter. It is just...another piece of software which can be seen through and as it is seen through it can be appreciated it doesn't have to go away the habit of the body creating the or simulating or hallucinating a self as a doer and taking credit for the actions is a fascinating fascinating piece of software when you see how it operates you know that you are the
You are the consciousness, you are the witnessing of it, not the witness, the witnessing of it.
You are the knowing of it. So even if the habit perpetuates, but there is a knowing of it, well, who's bothered? There is no problem of anything then anymore. Nothing needs to change. Nothing needs to be found. Nothing needs to be achieved. Nothing needs to be let go of, getting rid of. No ego needs to die. No heaven has to be found. No prayers no meditations nothing just a simple relaxed recognition that whatever is going on in consciousness is just a mechanical set of behaviors in response to the environment that no one ever does like cats and birds and mosquitoes, they don't have the idea of agency doing anything.
They are just moved with the wind or moved with natural attraction and aversion. That of course don't have to be broken either. A natural attraction for the body to follow the safety and pleasureNothing needs to be changed. Even if there is a pattern of unhealthy so-called addictions, you know, when we look at Nisargadatta and his habit of smoking beedis one after another, and to the point of dying of cancer, unhealthy addictions, even that doesn't have to go away. Though it often would when the addiction is witnessed and is seen and is seen through.some of the fuel that feeds that fire is now withdrawn and it becomes the witnessing presence.
So the addictions usually weaken. They're not as compulsive. But if they don't, again, who cares? Who cares? It's a dream. It's a beautiful, beautiful dream. And then again, people would ask, okay, so if that is so, should I do nothing? Should I not fight for peace? Or should I not fight for climate change? Well, again, if there is no agency there, life is going to move you.just as it did up until now. Just like life moved you to connect with people you connect with, to fight with those you fight with. And it continually moves, just like it moves the baby when it learns to walk, and then it falls and it gets up and it falls again.
Life moves them. Everything is moved. The planet is moved around the sun by the same life. The clouds in the sky, the rain, are moved by the same energy. So being that space-like, open field of knowing and witnessing the movement of life, witnessing movement of thought, movement of attention, witnessing the mind finding a way to improve things, complain about things.It's a fascinating adventure of witnessing. And in Hindu scriptures, that witnessing is called knowing. Knowing, being, knowing, and contentment. Being, knowing, and love of being, contentment in being, sat-chit-ananda. And that is called the reality. Reality is the experienceable awareness of existence that no one can deny.
No one can pretend or believe that they are not existing. Even if you try to imagine non-existence, you can't do it. Let's alone experience non-existence. That's ridiculous. That can't happen. So the experiencing of awareness of existence is constant, is continually there. Always here, always now. And that's the reality. Presence awareness, awareness of existence. Just this and nothing else. Nothing else is real. Everything else is called maya, illusion, or nama, rupa, meaning name and form. That's a phenomena. That is what arises in the awareness of existence. So awareness of existence is what you are. Within that, the body arises, the mind which interprets things, objects, labels, names.The dreams, all the dreams arise because of that presence of consciousness.
The dreams from last night, the dreams of the whole past, the dreams of being a child, of being married or being abused, whatever it is, all the dreams arise in that presence of consciousness. The presence of consciousness is now. And the dreams are coming and going. The dreams of what we're going to do tomorrow and what we're going to do in two hours from now. All those dreams are arising because of the presence of consciousness, the witnessing.And that is experienceable. Everything else is passing. It's a phenomena. It comes and goes. And that's enough for now. Yeah, so, Daniel, would you like to answer? I don't know if I have anything.
Phenomena phenomena what does it mean phenomena phenomenon everything is phenomena absolutely everything in the dreams phenomena everything is you know and Everything is potentially experienced. Differently from seemingly separate points of view also, even language, you know, there'sso many ways in which symbolic language is And the meanings we put on things are arbitrary, changeable, changeable within one vehicle from one day to the next, one moment to the next. There's absolutely no stability, no certainty, but we keep looking for it. Wanting certainty. I must be certain that I'm... Realized that I must have certainty.All that doubt that comes up. And there's no... Requirement to put any energy of belief into any phenomenal thought that appears.
And I often say that it seems to become easier to see through the obvious, obvious fact that there's no entity creating these thoughts, not in control of these thoughts. And that seems to become easier when you recognize that time doesn't exist. Only in the dream, it's an agreed upon measure. Something we all collectively agree to have an illusion about. I recently went from here to Vancouver and only lost half an hour, according to the clock. So I left at 5.20pm. On Wednesday the 24th of September and I arrived at 5.30pm on Wednesday the 24th of September in Vancouver.to ask AI, how is that possible? I'm trying to explain this to me.
It's just, you know, an acceptance of an agreed upon reality. That's it. As bizarre as it might be. Didn't say that. She explained, you know, the reasons why, you know. And, you know, the daylight saving thing as well contributes. And still, wow. Okay. But we all agree that that is so. And I think we all, you know, there's an uns... Well, you grow up being conditioned to be responsible seemingly for what goes on in your own head because you're responsible for your actions when you're a naughty girl or a naughty boy and you did something wrong. Or something right, or you took the credit. So it's always, it's constantly being reinforced, the sense of me, the doer.
When you actually take a moment to sincerely investigate, earnestly take a look,There's nothing. There's no one there, no little entity. You can't even, you know, you're talking about can you turn the seeing off. You can't even find the switch. Yeah. You don't, it's no, it's just never been there. And yet you know that there is this something that we put labels on, put labels on everything and we give it meaning, but it really is just that. A tree is not a tree. A tree is its own individual expression. No tree is like another tree, yet we collectively call them trees. But it's really, it's just that.But, you know, in our limited capacities, I guess, You know, the only way to sort of really see everything as it is, is to not buy into the separateness of being a little mini me, an I that controls everything, and just accepting what's appearing.
From moment to moment.and not getting caught up in the sometimes comfortable, often comfortable, reflecting on so-called past. Because it feels familiar often. So there might be seeming, you know, safety or pleasure in that. And similarly, you know, when one's unhappy with what's happening now, then there's a tendency to go to the imagination, imagine a different future. And every time that happens, you're missing out on what's happening right now.And that's just how it is. But being when in the now, it's lighter, isn't it? It's a lightness. Getting caught up in who I am or who I've been in the past, who I want to be in the future, how I want to improve myself.
Good luck with all of that.the whole manifesting You know, it's kind of a, what do you call it? It's like a trend now. I'm going to manifest this. I'm going to manifest that. Yeah. From where do you manifest? If you sincerely take a look, that's really all that needs to be done is to do the investigation. Take a look. You just cannot find a reference point for me.You can't, there's no boundary. It's just what's happening from moment to moment. Literally, you only ever experience this. Can't even say it's now. Actually, we don't have a word for it even to describe what it is because once you come out of your mouth now, that's gone.
It's past. And the past is dead.Gone. You have to put effort into it to recreate something, you know, from the past. Just let it go. So who or what investigates? That's a very good question. Yeah. Can you find the investigator?But there's a knowing. You can't find this individual who's doing it. It's just what's happening. Who's doing the seeing? Yeah. The mind always assumes that there is a division, that there has to be a doer of the deeds. Like, it is so visible and so obvious when you look at the planet moving around the sun. Is the planet actually doing it? No, it's the whole universe, the forces of nature.
You know, we even name those laws as if they were the doers, really. But it is just the universe unfolding as it does. It's not doing it. I have a question. So if the past is dead, like you said, and if there's no time, so that means it is. There's no time. It's what's real. It's all the time, so it's not dead, is it? So it is. How does this exist as a memory, as a mental image, imagination? It's real when you create it in the imagination, in that moment. When you focus on it, you make it matter, literally. That's right. You have to recreate it.By putting energy into it.
And who's doing that? It is fascinating. Bob would ask, for example, where is your last night dinner when you don't think about it? Did you even have the dinner last night if you don't think about it? When it's out of mind, out of sight, it disappears. It only... In this moment of now, it only gets recreated as a mental image, as a memory. It's constant. Yeah, it's just now. Just now. Just now. Just now. Yeah. Yeah, even acid reflex comes with the interpretation, oh, this is because of that and that and that and that. If the interpretation doesn't come up, it's just that. Yeah. So all of that linking together of what comes before what, that's the story.
That's the story that gets created. There's so many stories that we buy into and get lost in. That is used for defining an illusory cage of concepts about me, my story.But really, it's just your story, if any, is now. It's what is now. Yes, there is a direct experience of existence and there is an overlay of interpretation. And direct experience is to be trusted and the veil of interpretation is to be seen through. For example, any veil of interpretation, if I'm in a good mood and I'm catching up with a friend, I feel, oh, we have such a connection. I love her. We go three decades back.
Oh, it's such a beautiful friendship. And then when I'm in a bad mood, oh, she didn't listen to me. Oh, she doesn't care. She never calls. And then the interpretation is the same event. It's just one element here. Maybe I didn't have a breakfast or maybe I had a fight or maybe my hormones are up or whatever. And suddenly the story is interpreted to something completely different. And a different dream is superimposed on that basic meeting of having a cup of tea. So the reality is of finding myself with a friend and the interpretation is a veil of what it means to me, to her, the whole story.the back, all of it.
And of course, this example right now is just a mental image. Because right now there's no catching up with a friend right now. Catching up with a friend is interpretation. You know, when somebody asks you a question about why did you do such and such, why did you say that the other night? Well, you make the answer, you're creating the response on the spot. And how you respond could be, as you say, very different if you catch me before or after dinner or before or after coffee. It's just made up on the spot. It's not a stored set of responses anywhere, you know, appropriate response under this circumstance.
Yeah, the chemicals in balance in the body, a little bit heightened stress, and then a completely different dream comes into existence. And now being able to see that this interpretation, that this dream is just superimposed veil covering up the reality of the moment being absolutely mysterious, being fresh, being new, being completely devoid of free from interpretation of its own. Just like two cats are meeting and their eyes are gazing and there may be a little hissing or there may be a cuddling. Whatever is going to happen is just this unfolding moment. But when...Two humans meet. There's a lot of mental noise going on top of the mysterious connection, mysterious, ever-fresh moment of now.
Putting the meaning, putting meaning in there. What's the point? What's the meaning of this? Oh, we love to do that. Yeah. And seeing how automatic, how mechanical it is. It's absolutely the best, best game in town. What a show to actually see the tendencies of the mind, which is always preserving the body and seeking comfort and pleasure. It's always love. Behind all that veiling of reality is always love of being, love for safety. Even if the interpretation is hostility, anger, violence, even that is just to make a statement. I want this one to be safe and loved and respected. The love, the energy behind the love of being, the Sat-Cit-Ananda, being, knowing, loving to be, is always, is the movement, is this primordial cause of every movement of attention.
But it is interpreted to a story of me. That's it. And you said in your spiel, you said, you know, this natural caring or this natural preference for protecting.life or you know the continuation of life whether that's life of protecting seeming one's self or which is usually what it comes down to or however it's you know presented but it always comes back to loving to be, whether or not, you know, there's a sense of you're enjoying it or not, right? Yeah. There's still loving to be. Like Bob would sometimes say, you know, if a madman walked in the front door now and wanted to shoot everybody, as miserable as you are, you'd still fight for your life.
Be able to help yourself, probably, you know, wait and see what happens when it happens, but yeah.recognizing that love of being and giving credit where credit is due, Bob would say. Just be warm towards yourself. Just nurture it, that loving to be, that sense of contentment, that relaxed, peaceful presence that you are. And from that relaxed, natural state of just nurturing, nurturing, the attention will naturally go and scan but from that point of safety and contentment it will find amazement in whatever arises the curiosity amazement amusement in whatever arises rather than constant sense of relating and distress so finding the way out of psychological suffering through recognition that there is no one doing anything therefore it's time to just give up relax enjoy the show look at that dream as it unfolds look at the scenery look at the content of seeing the content of hearing the content of the mind interpreting whatever is happening with the sense of wow what a dream Incredible.And that can only happen through non-doing, cessation of that continuous doing, continuous habituated doing of, oh, no, no, I'm not there yet.
I understand it intellectually, but how do I do it? Do I have to meditate or do I have to do push-ups or do I have to go to the monastery or what do I have to do? Or take drugs what what no no realize that the one who wants to do all of this
It's a piece of software arising in the stillness of your being that is untouched. There is a knowing of that determination and devotion. Oh, just tell me what to do. I'll do anything. I'll do anything. I'll sit and walk. I'll drink. I'll do whatever. That is a pattern arising in that presence, in that knowing, in the witnessing.
There is a pattern of, I want to do anything. It's an urge, just the same urge which brings you to, oh, I'm hungry, I want to, oh, I'm thirsty, I want to have a glass of water. That same urge arising as a doubt, as affirmation, as a belief, as an interpretation, as a devotion, as wanting to... Give it everything. And it arises in the space which is already relaxed, which is already witnessing it, already aware of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can, can you, it's a challenge, you know, when you ask this question, Miranda just asked, you know, who's doing the looking? It's from that position, let's call it, that you're constantly aware, registering everything that's going on, naturally.even without having to have a point of thought about it.
Kat often says, I'm aware that my hands are cold in here. Just now I articulated it, but I hadn't had a point of thought about my hands are cold that I recall prior to that. It's just a natural knowing. In the same way, there's a recognition, a cognising, a knowing. Everything's happening all the time. We're talking here and we're focusing, but there's an awareness of the noise of the traffic. Outside and that's coming in there so you know if I there's a filtering all this kind of going on if I look closely at it but it's all just happening without any planning any need to direct or control any of it and that no controlling by no oneis also exactly the same for the story.
The story is, if we can use the word unfolding, not in time, is all unfolding of its own accord, just like the body is seeing, you know, and senses are being aware of what's going on in the sound environment, the sight environment, all this kind of stuff. It's exactly the same with the story.Yeah, just like a heartbeat, autopilot. When the environment changes, the body needs to run. On autopilot, the heart will adjust. Same with the story. There is raining, the story will adjust. There is a hunger, the story will adjust. All going automatically on autopilot according to past experiences and conditioning, which are of course again just an interpretation.
And you are, you know, for want of a better word, watching it all unfold. You're just watching. And hearing, you just might have other thoughts. Yeah.Would you call this stimulus and response? In a way, we just use that as symbolic language. But really, how could you say one causes another? I'm just thinking of an incident that happened. Driving my car down High Street Q, there used to be, until very recently, a picture frame. And the picture frame had various paintings around this. Workshop or shop. Where he carried out his framing. Saw this painting which was very very spacious so The eye went to the painting and sort of, was struck by theThe elemental simplicity of it just seemed to be a little bit of foreground, lots of sea, and the sea blended into the sky.
And just looking at this caught the eye, and then you drive on. And that must have happened a couple of times. And then I found that one day I went in and bought this painting. Took it home. didn't, I suppose the intellect didn't understand why. Why and what it was about this painting that was so attractive. And, um,And that action just sort of happened automatically. Eventually, it was clear that what was attractive was the spaciousness. And you could rest in that spaciousness and remind you. Remind yourself of your own spaciousness, which is nice to rest in from time to time. Yeah.I guess it's similar with any attraction.
Can't put your finger on it. Often. But the mind can come up with an explanation. Well, let's call it the mind. So post hoc, you've now, you know, after thinking about it sometime, you've come up with a convincing explanation for the attraction. It's the spaciousness. It's just, it's not even necessary to have that meaning, explanation for why. In a way, it just happened.I think... But we love the stories. But we love the stories. We love that. It's a beautiful story. There's one story called Much Ado About Nothing, in which Shakespeare mentions nothing 11 times in that Much Ado About Nothing. Yes. Much ado about nothing.
Yeah, so in getting caught up and attracted by the spaciousness of some appearance,one realizes that it's It's about nothing. It's about emptiness. The fact that everything is empty. An insubstantial pageant.Constantly changing. Constantly shifting. Inside this stillness. That we are. And that never changes. Never shifts. Yep, so it's all much to do about nothing. Everybody relax. But it's not really nothing, Bob would say, it's no thing. No thing. Yeah, because when we say nothing, mind latches on it, mind, you know, the interpreting services, the function of interpreting latches onto it and it straight away makes it to vacuum, void. No, this is unobjectifiable. But really, when you...
When you just experience that pure experiencing that no thing is not a vacuum is no void is aliveness is radiant is alive is vibrant is It's beautiful.It's miraculous. It isn't it. It is here. It is the sense of presence. It is the I am-ness. But it is not nothing. Yeah, that's that. Often hear this phrase popping up in Zogchen books. The pure light, pure light of presence or being. It's pure light. You can't see it because it's not... It's so shining. But it's... Yes. It's there.Yeah, this pure light. Light in which everything else is seen, but light can't see itself. Like the sun, it shines of its own.
It can't know that it is shining, because it can't know anything else. It can't know the darkness, self-shining. That's one of Bob's favorite quotes from Dzogchen. Ever fresh, self-shining, presence awareness, just this and nothing else. Self-shining in that self-shining light of pure knowing. Everything arises and you are that light of pure knowing that aliveness that consciousness that you know that I am before Abraham was before the whole history Bible gods all of it before Abraham was I am that light of knowing that radiance of existence that deliciousness of presence before anything else could be there is a consciousness first that light of knowing before anything can be lit upon and known and it's not before a simileTanya's because there is no time as Tanya beautiful pointed there is no time it is just this and nothing else not nothing, the no thing experiencing and expressing and appearing as absolutely everything, as all the shimmering dream, all the flickering lights, all the shadows, dark and night and hot and cold and pleasure and pain and people and no people and all of it just content.
Arising because there is an I am-ness, because there is a consciousness, the light of knowing, because there is a presence in which they can be experienced. So this, everything, the whole dream is a reflection of that aliveness, so that self-shining presence appearing as a form through which other forms are being known. They're really a reflection of the same aliveness.In this goes the Nisargadatta's quotes of the wisdom tells me I'm nothing. And the love tells me that I am everything because that nothingness is that aliveness, self-shining, appearing and expressing as every reflection. And it is all showing me what I am. I am the sky. I am the room.
I am the people. I am this. I am that. I am that. But not exclusively. But totally everything that arises within the consciousness all the dream is inseparable from the consciousness it is the consciousness appearing as the dream so i am the consciousness appearing as the dream looking from this particular perspective but looking also from all the other perspectivesSim. Here. So coming back to what Ross was saying, that you bought the picture, right? And because there is no doer, are we saying that something else calls you, the universe, well, the energy? Life essence is the one that caused you to buy the picture, not you.
You thought that you bought the picture. Yes. Because there is, it's actually the universal energy that is, arises, that is, you know, you're not, because we're not separate from this universal mind. Yes, it's the universal mind working through you, but we think that, oh, that's the illusion. I'm in this picture. Yeah. That's what we are. Yes. Yes. Yes. So just is that light you're talking about, is that energy or vibration? And are those vibrate? I'm assuming that vibrate.are different in different places in the universe. Okay, so Bob went to Ganeshpuri and he couldn't stay there because the vibration was so powerful and I've certainly experienced that.
What causes and is there a different vibration here than at my place or out there? And so if you look at it, are we better off sitting here experiencing that vibration? Than being elsewhere and being, as you say, stop searching and just sit on the park bench out there. We have no choice. Yeah, no choice. And they are, you know, there's a different vibration for the light of seeing. There's a different vibration for the hearing, different vibration of the sound, different vibration of your fabric. There is all vibrations, different vibrations of being in the mountains or being on the beach. They're all different vibrations. But the one who says this is better and this is worse and we should do this and we should do that is always the storyteller, the narrator.
So would Bob see the vibration rather than the... Rather than they appear inOh, no, no. It is... He wouldn't. Seeing doesn't change. He doesn't. Seeing doesn't change. Seeing is the same. You can experience the vibration through every fiber of your body and you may know it kind of directly as shaking. You may know it as emotional energy. You feel that it's too much. The heart is opening. Or you can feel it as overwhelmed, cringing. You know, like you feel the vibration of too high noises. Like if there is a construction site or the airplane going and crossing there, they're all different vibrations.You know, it seemed so in the dream.
And there can be an impression of different vibration here, the energy feels different, blah, blah. This is all perfectly valid in the dream. But in what that appears, well, let's call it consciousness, You know, it appears in you. It's still. Wherever you go, that sense of being, existing, life, life-ing, cognising, whatever, doesn't change. That is constant, still, silent, stable. Where it doesn't matter if you're in a moving car, a moving train, you're in a plane, you always, that sense of just being never changes. It is the only, let's say, thing that you think, which is no thing, no other word for it, that you know to be absolutely consistent, unchanging.
And you get there, as Bob used to say, you know, one way to get there is to quickly answer the question. When somebody says to you, can you not be? Yeah. All of that. And I know that you're sick of hearing that.It's that simple. So all the questions that arise about the interrelationships, they're all perfectly valid in the dream. Ultimately, none of the answers to none of them matter because there's no controller. You're not doing anything. You don't know anything. There's no chooser. There's no choice. But everything in the dream can change constantly. So what? The sense of presence being never changes. And the minute you articulate it, the second you say, I am, whatever, You're using the dream to explain it, articulate it.
But there is a natural, instinctual, intrinsic knowing. That's all. That's it. Stop there. No need to go any further. Sure, play around all you want, but, you know, recognising that subtle... Doesn't matter what happens in the dream.Well, Anita shared this with me a couple of weeks ago about what science or the physics the scientists are discovering that is non-dual. And what they are talking about is the universe is mental. So I was thinking, what does that mean? It's energy, it's not physical, it's mental. So now they're taking a different, they're looking at it from a different viewpoint in that all around us, what we've been conditioned is physical, is physicalism.
But now they're saying that because this guy who was doing the experiments, he was getting frustrated that he wasn't getting anywhere when he's just looking at you know, the physical things. So he realized, he took a step back and realized that the universe is mental, is actually, so I was wondering what mental is. So what it is, is actually mental. Imaginary. It's the energy. Yes. It's a mental energy. And the universal mind. So there's only...one universal mind and it's everywhere and we are part of it but we also have an individual mind i think that's where all the stories come up you know our individual dream like you said when you dream you have a your individual dream But when you wake up, the dream is no longer, because we have, it's a collective, it's part of the universal mind, and which we have no control over, and it's spontaneous.
So, yeah, we always... The individual mind always thinks we want to be in charge. Separate. We are separate, but we are never separate. We are all connected together. That's right. But that's the illusion. I think we... So I think, you know, if they are looking at it, if we look at it from this angle that actually there's only one that great that universal mind which is which is part of us but our individual mind is nothing it's i don't know how we find it You can't even find the mind. Find the mind. The mind is as non-existent as the me, as the I, as the ego, as time.So there is no individual mind.
No. But it is there. No. Is there? Is there? Is there? Is there? Yeah. I think it is and it isn't. Yeah. It appears to be. It appears. It's real in a, it appears to be real, you know, false in appearance, real in essence. Yeah. I just have one question, though. I don't have an answer, but I just want you guys to say, what about this thing that we're running a program? Are we running to a certain program or simulation or as they say it? No, no, no. It's just, it's the same energy that is organizing the galaxies and the planets and the solar systems.
The same energy is organizing the cells in the body to replace, to die the old cells. And the same energy is organizing thoughts and stories and unfolding, making you meet people from the families, give you the idea to have children or job. It's self-organizing universe. It's spontaneous. It's like dream. It's spontaneously unfolding every moment. No one does it. It's not like frequencies. Yes, it's just the interpretation. This mind is called projector. This whole machinery is interpreting various interpretations, various energies, various frequencies showing up as this, just like the dream at night. It's a miraculous appearance. There is no doer anywhere. It's just spontaneous unfolding, perpetuated in patterns.
There are patterns of thinking, patterns of perception, there are habits. They are just like the patterns amongst the skies and amongst the atoms. It's a mystery. It's an unknowable mystery. The science is just another expression of it, just like religions are expressions of it. They are religions and science. They are all social, self-organizing systems that are also part of the whole dream. Science isn't above it or religion isn't above it. It's just another. Yeah.So I suppose it's like if you just have different paints around. So if the white's next to the red, it might bleed into each other. You get one color and you get a pink.
And over there, like the yellows next to the red, it bleeds together and you might get orange or whatever. So, and that's like the individual dream, you know, but it's all paint. Yeah. Last night I had a dream that I was a brilliant physicist, more brilliant than Einstein, Hawking, whoever you can think of, and I'd solved the fundamental laws of the universe. And knew exactly how everything fit into place. And I knew all the right words to use, the frequencies, resonance, everything. And then I woke up from the dream. Beautiful. It doesn't matter. It doesn't. It's all just stories, concepts. It's great, fun, do it.
Yeah, you can't have, there's no choice. You know, the relaxing, if you want to call it that, is that you're not holding on to anything as if it's absolute truth.Right? Because what science thinks it knows now, it will change. It will devalidate. This is what science does, right? We all, science, it must be right. Okay. You know, that evolves as well, changes constantly. It's not necessary to understand. To leave the mind when it says I need to know before I can, I need to understand fully how everything works before I can be realised. This is a trick, if you want to call it a trap.
It's a dead end. None of that leads anywhere. This is Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole stuff. That's why Bob would always say you'll never, ever work it out in the mind. Never. But he would also say investigate. He would say know the mind, see how it works. Watch it. This is knowing how the mechanism works and that helps you go see it again and again and again, the mechanism. And why the responses are the way they are. Sometimes they drop away. He would also say, why exchange unborn Buddha mind for a thought? That was a quote. And science offers thought. Why exchange the mystery of unborn Buddha mind for the thought of explanation?
Yeah, what a waste of a mystery. Cover it up with bloody equations. Ooh.As much as I love equations and mathematics, the mystery and knowability of it, the incomprehensibility of it, that's the godliness. That's the omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience. When it's worked out, what is it? Unborn Buddha mind exchange for a thought. And we have a couple of comments here. Julia Marie says, Thank you, Kat and Tanya. The teachings of Bob and Nisar Gadatta have always resonated with me. I love how you share that as humans, we give meaning to things which all stem from thought. It is liberating to know that in reality, nothing means anything and nothing matters in the ultimate sense and heart.
Yes, that's beautifully put, Julie. Thank you. And Martin says, non-conceptual ringing of presence, not the word, but that subtle feeling of aliveness. Thoughts come and go on top of that subtle feeling of presence. Notice that the thoughts and appearances change, but that non-conceptual presence never changes. It always is. Yeah, that's beautiful. Great to hear from you, Marty. And Tanya says, us, it doesn't matter if the same old thoughts, complaints arise out of the being.you are right it is just everything appearing unowned and not unowned and not separate now not even now because there is no time beautiful and she replies to martin beautiful martin that's it if that is noticed there is no need to keep looking or seeking the seeker is just a thought anyways Precisely so.
And Martin says, you are something that changes or are you something that changes or are you that which allows those different patterns to appear and change? You have to be that presence which is fundamental to the patterns appearing. You've mistaken yourself as a thought. But funnily enough, you can't actually be mistaken. No thought can touch you. Brilliant. No one can do anything. Recognize there is only and ever been being. And Yael says, hello. Yeah. Thank you, guys. Dino, you're going to wrap it up? No, no, no. We still have time. But you're going to respond after. What? Sim said about universal mind isthe unborn Buddha mind.
And what Bob uses, the term that he uses occasionally in that little white gospel is natural mind. That's not the narrative mind and it's not the me. Trying to work it out. That's all. How many minds do you think there are? You just hit it, Sam. Well, look at it like, you know, a tree is a thought or a perception or there's no such thing as a tree except the perception of a tree or a thought of a tree. Is a thought of a tree a tree? And then is a thought of a me a me? How can a thought of a me be a me if it's a thought?
Like you were saying about vibrations, you could say, look, this meeting is really about nothing, right? It's absolutely nothing. There's nothing going on. It's like emptiness or one thing or non-duality as nothing.as one essence and that one essence is, let's call that one essence energy. And then you could call every movement of that energy a vibration. And every vibration will have its own distinct individual flavor, individual frequency, if you like. So the vibration of a chair vibrates at this frequency, the vibration of the voice vibrates at this frequency. These are just ways of explaining. I'm not saying this is the way it is. I'm just saying this is just a way of looking.
So a thought appears. That's vibrating as well. The thought, I see a thought, is a thought. The thought, I see a thought, is just a thought as a thought of a tree, a thought of a table, a thought of a... So the hand moving is a vibration. The idea of... I'm doing it is a vibration. So it's all the same. They're all different frequencies. So it's all, you could simply, very, very simply, one essence, vibrating, patterning in infinite array. And that infinite array is nothing. Vibrating as everything, is nothing vibrating as the light illuminating everything. You could say the vibrations is the light show itself, is the flashing light show of this.
And what is this flashing light show? It's this.It's absolutely just the essential thing that's in front of in, we're baking in it, we're soaking in it, we can't get out of it, we can't get in because we're never in it or out of it. It is the show. The show is aliveness itself. And within that show is all of the infinite array of vibrations and the vibrations of the thoughts saying, I can see this or I'm learning this or I'm getting this. They're just equal vibrations to the vibration of the tree and anything. So that's why there is nothing to get. That's why there is no explanation, there is no meaning as such, because there is just one show going on and all the vibrations, like, and the vibration of, I'm stuck and I need to get this, is a vibration of a thought.
Appearing as I'm stuck and I need to get this. So no one is ever stuck. No one is ever, there is no one because there is one show. And that one show is, and imagine all these vibrations were the colour pink. All right. How could pink ever be ever see itself as pink? How could pink ever know pink? It couldn't. So so there has to be something behind or under or sees and recognizes that it is a pink to know that it's.Otherwise, so the thought in the vibration field, the thought pink can't see pink because it is pink. So the only thing that can know pink is the stillness or the no pink or the no color or the no vibration or the emptiness or the silence or the stillness.
And that might make sense, or it might not, but it's... There is no way in or out of this. So there's no, that's why, you know, this is sometimes referred to saying is relaxing or relaxing into it. There's no one to relax into it because that's another vibrating thought. They relax, oh, there's a contracted energy that feels like another vibrating. And the tension. Attention is a vibration too that's fixating on other vibrations in a sense. It's just a way of explaining things again and trying to maybe simplify the simplicity of this one essence, one essence, one show, one thing going on. Nothing appearing as this show appearing as as this meeting appearing as questions and answers and ideas and philosophies and and and and neuro physics physics and any every you just come up with the answer thoughIt's the vibe.
It's the vibe. That's it. It's the vibe, man. And if that doesn't work, it's 42, you know. Obvious. I wonder if Jimmy or Paz would like to say something. A word. No? Yes? A word? Hmm? You did a good one, though. No, I'm good. A word, huh? One word. Okay. No, look, it's great to be here. Yeah, to just get that sense of the priness, the thing that isn't pink that recognises pink, and to just recognise that. And from that place, then everything is just everything. And I like what I heard earlier around much ado about nothing, that the distinction between nothing and no thing.
That there is something, it can't be labelled as a word, but the energy is undeniable and the sensory reality of life force is undeniable. And, yeah, also to what you said earlier, Kat, about, and I wrote it down, there was something about,seeing. So the seeing is happening for the child. What it's seeing is then programmed into it and then that becomes the focus. And then the simplicity of the fact of seeing somehow becomes redundant or overlooked. But through a kind of an inquiry like this becomes remembered again. And it's beautiful to be here. Jimmy, Jimmy James? No. Like they say, when a child learns what a bird is, it never sees a bird again.
Yeah. Covers it up with the label. Just take the word and there's no mystery. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, Kat.