This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
We have Anita. Jamie, Jacinta, Lucky, Tabor, Simon, Sim, Jimmy, Cole, Ross, Dean. And we have a treat for today. We're going to have Ben. No. Oh, sorry. Oh, sorry. Wait, I'm just going to... It has to be this way so it can bend. Oh, thank you.Oh, yeah. Do I need to hold this? Yes. Yeah, there is a mic there. Okay. Okay, so welcome everyone. And Ben knows Bob for, what, a couple of decades? Yeah, 2009 was the first time I met Bob. And resonated. From the first meeting, I sort of resonated with what was being said. Between then and 2012, I think I would come down like at least once a year, if not twice, to just check in.
And then in 2012, I moved to Melbourne. I was here for six years. And so, yeah, particularly initially, I was like every meeting, three a week or whatever it was. And then it was sort of here and then, but still fairly regular, more or less to the end. And then, you know, the last couple of years, it was sort of more just checking in and having lunch and not feeling as... I at least cerebrally at the time was filled up as I could have been with all the pointers and whatever and I didn't feel like I needed any more to hear thething over and over, just let it be.
And that's kind of it in a nutshell. He was certainly one of the key reasons I moved to Melbourne. And yeah, I've stuck with that. Tasting that he offers ever since. I wouldn't say I'm seeking any more per se, but, you know, dream character still gets hung up here and there on whatever. But then, yeah, and then, you know, it clears out of its own accord as well. So, yeah, that's how I... That's how I came to be here really through. Events that I wasn't, I wasn't a spiritual seeker actually, you know, I was suffering immensely, but I didn't realize that was the remedy for it.
Um, and, and so, yeah, it was just, yeah, without boring with details, it's just a natural unfolding that brought me to that. Yeah. And plays a part, as we were just discussing, in what's continuing in my life now, you know, without Bob even consciously having a part in it. Just, you know, with the connections with my career and stuff now, he had a big part of that. Yeah, still does. Yeah, so I invited Ben as just yet another example for you and for everyone of incredible effectiveness of box pointing, which takes people beyond the...the need for further help. So to see the message from so many angles, through so many different voices, just really brings up the simplicity of it, just highlights how clear and clean and obvious it is.
You know, you don't really have to even, there is no requirement that needs to be met. You are that already. So I invited Ben to give us a few of the pointers because yes, the last few years, Ben was living far, far, far away in different locations around the world. And we would catch up, have the family catch up sort of a thing, the family of one is reflecting the clarity in each other's eyes, just having lunches. Welcome home type of a gathering. And we never discussed pointers anymore. We never spoke non-duality anymore because there was nothing to talk about. So now I'm really grateful that you could come.
Yeah, yeah. Well, let's see. I don't know what I'm going to say. Let's find out. Yeah, let's find out. I'll just go for it. Yeah. Yeah, I think, like, I guess it's the same for everyone here. The beauty of Bob's approach is one that, you know, you could put it as that everything's primordially pure and uncorrupted from the outset. So there's no question of ever being contaminated. You know, which is quite a rare.approach and then what's offered is looking and seeing and finding if that's the case as opposed to trying to become pure or trying to become less contaminated. And of course, you know, you've already put yourself in a position of, well, there's something to gain or acquire or there's a sense of lack there or whatever.
Yeah, Bob's style, which, you know, resonated with me, very much just directly looking at what's already innately present.And never really changed. Well, it doesn't change. That sense of being or presence is non-conceptual and it's self-knowing. It doesn't require anything at all. To validate it. So whatever would be said or spoken would be after the fact that it's already there. And, you know, just directly tasting and recognizing that, that backbone or whatever you want to call it, that knows itself. And is always on and is always ceaseless. It can't be started up. You can't end it. And so when you essentially sort of just get a taste of that and abide in that, and see that whatever comes up that might be considered an obstruction is also that.
You know, it's sort of... It sort of quashes any need to go beyond or seek outside of it.And yeah, and I guess like if you want to call it awareness, for the sake of labeling it, it's already accepted or being this, it's already accepted everything because it is everything. So the seeing right now and all of its content That's it. That's already it. And so if there's a problem with that, it's just conceptual based on, you know, an abstracted reference point, creating this simulation between a subject and an object, which is... Good for the dream character and this dream perhaps, but ultimately it's all just a simulation of fiction.
You know, it's just costumes. And when it's dropped, again, the beingness isn't dropped. You can't drop out of it. You can't come into it. You can't run away from it. You can't escape it. So, you know, that for me is, you know, basically like a yin and yoga. You know, you see... Through the inquiry itself, that that's evident and true. It's not based on a doctrine or a dogma or practice. I mean, can you call it a practice? It's just like whether the consciousness...registers or recognizes what's already so. So if you want to call that a practice, but of course, who would be the one practicing?
And so it sort of, it comes up from that place and dissolves from that place and is recognized from that place. And, um, It's sort of... Yeah, it can only really leave you in that sort of spaceless, spaceless, aware, silent presence or whatever you wish to call it.And then abiding in that. Things have a tendency to flow more effectively. And it's not really, yeah, there's nothing static about it. It's not like... there's any point or place ever. You know, you're talking about like, it's something, it took me a while to sort of like, one of those, you know, Bob will say a lot of things, but there will be a couple of things there that are said that are a bit like, I'm still not fully sure what he means by that.
hasn't fully registered. So one of those things for me would have perhaps been when he said, you know, there is only now. If it's a billion years, it's right now. The big bang is right now and all of that. And I was like, right. But it did finally really register what that meant, you know, that essentially... Whatever you come up with about anything, literally, you're doing it in this living moment. So, you know, if you are someone that likes to, entertain notions and ideas of there being X, Y, Z dimensions and all these different worlds and realms and all of that, you certainly can.Samsara may well provide for you those projections.
But again, all of that is arising within this moment. So the whole thing, which is everything, literally, that's ever been conceived or could be conceived or will be conceived, it's always in this, you know. And so that's kind of amazing, really. You know, it's all just one omnipresent interaction that transcends time and space and includes all those apparent time and space hallucinations, which are infinite and endless.And at the same time, yeah, it's nothing, you know. So that's sort of, you know, the cognizing emptiness or the animated intelligence of that space, which you are. So you recognize you're that space and then... Everything is just animating intelligence of that space.
And you're not in relationship with it anymore because, you know, I guess just like if a ribbon's in a knot, it doesn't know it's in a knot because it doesn't have an objective correlation. Because you are the ribbon, you're just that fabric. So if those mental abstractions aren't going on and this objective sort of thing going on, then, yeah, there's just, again, that self-knowing beingness. You're at the heart of the whole show.Yeah. I don't know what else really to say than that about it. If I was just going to try and keep it. That's beautiful. That's it. That's the essence. Yeah, it's kind of, yeah, you can call it a heart.
It is kind of, it feels that way. Yeah, you feel at home, you know. At home's not a location. It's not a person. you're trying to find wholeness or completeness through an object relation, you're going to be most likely very disappointed or perhaps be able to tolerate each other. But it's not going to give you a resolution. And only that non-conceptual awareness or beingness, it's its own... resolution, you know, and then sort of rather than just being in survival, I mean, the dream character still needs its comforts and needs to have its nervous system quelled and needs a home in its dream. But you're at home already just within that presence and that beingness.
And in that sense, you're sort of just watching the scenery change. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.I don't know how long we went for, but I guess... Yeah, well, it's a good introduction. Yeah, thank you. All right. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. Stay there. Maybe just... Yeah, yeah, sure. I'm answering questions. No problem. I don't know if there's anyone from online. Morning, folks. We just have. Hello, everyone. So there are no questions. If anyone who is watching with us... Ask any questions please pop them in and apart from that yeah i just i just love the reward this is really the essence and i love also that sort of a presentation which comes from the space-like perspective so this is what is happening uh bob would often take the other angle like you see and you did say it you know how what stands in the way what obscures it so you are already at home and you may see the dream character throwing tantrum or looking for safety or for pleasure or whatever, the nervous system trying to do whatever it is conditioned to do.
Just like that cat here is conditioned to find the most optimal, to find pleasure. This is the little biocomputer programmed to... To always find... Yeah, it's an algorithm. Yeah, algorithm, yes. And you are the presence, always, already here, already here, just aware of that dynamic there. So, of course, there is, you know, like if there is an...movement or a desire to go and enhance the skills in which the dream may be a little bit more pleasant for example get a job and get money or get or get some healthy diet and get the healthy body yes the dream may be more pleasant but it doesn't touch that which is aware which is already here, which is already at home.
That's right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, and what is it that actually brings that idea that, yes, I get it, but I don't experience it? Who is that I that doesn't experience it? Who is it? And now you will see that the experience sync is happening all the time. And the idea or the construct that there is some sort of a separate entity, there is some me, some driver in the seat, is always a bunch of concepts, ideas appearing in that which is already here. In that which you beautifully explained also, you know, the time concept landing, that everything, Big Bang, where is Big Bang? If I don't think about it.
It doesn't, it doesn't, it isn't, it is not. It's potentially there, but it is not. The moment I bring the thought, ah, it's now. Of course. So all the past, all the future, everything only exists as a thought right now. Yeah. Well, it's like, you know, if someone...A lot of people probably experience this. Someone dies and you think they're still alive. Yeah. And then you get told so-and-so. And then they died for you in that moment of perceiving it. You know? Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, if you take that quite far, you start to see that all these things we call identity and all this thing, it's such an ephemeral fantasy.
It's a form of magic, really. Like when you look at, you know, most of the world buy into words. And words are like spells. They call it spelling, spell a word. I've got a big theory on this. We won't go there. But, yeah, it's sort of like, you know, and so if you get bound by words, they're very powerful. If you know this, as I believe some people do, it gives you a certain... Power over others because you can manipulate perception very easy. Oh, absolutely. Because you're colouring it with words which become beliefs and then that becomes your modulation of perception even though someone else will be looking at the same object, have a completely different modulation going on.
So, you know, it's like all of that of what we call personal is wrapped up in that sort of memory-bound perceptual fiction.Which is constantly like, which version of Kat's the true version? The one I've got, the one Bob had. Oh, your version. Which concept is right? It's always changing. And so, you know, these are all costumes of this consciousness that generates this dreamlike world or fantasy or whatever you want to call it. And so the only... Constant there is that which is free of all that, which is that impersonal sense of presence or beingness. You know, who knows what sort of nervous system or form that's going to show up in, you know, and whatever it does show up in and whatever it says, whatever, it's just, what's another character of that, you know, with its so-called downloads of how it sees things and whatever, all fiction.
And yet that's how this thing operates. Absolutely. Bob used to say that, you know, the belief in the I, in a separate self, is like a hypnotic suggestion. We've been under that hypnosis day in and day out, seven days a week, 365 days a year. Everyone relating to themselves as I and a little child. Imitating the adults and started relating to itself as I and then that concept that idea of self being this being a little girl or a little boy or being Polish or being Greek or being whatever this grew over time and those stickylabels accumulated and rig out the beautiful golden cage of concepts you know golden if i have healthy self-esteem or the iron of horrible if i have unhealthy self-esteem either way there is a concept and as you said yeah which concept is right bob would say everyone has a concept about each other and everyone have the concept about themselves and those concepts are not even steady you will have a different concept as a child you'll have different concept when you had a big breakfast you'll have a different concept if someone tells you something nice or if someone offends you and the words again the words the power of belief the hypnotic power that the energy of belief gives to the words and creates a dream in which, you know, if you are growing up in the tribe of aboriginal people and you agreed upon reality is if you point the bone, you're going to die.
Yeah, yeah, you believe it. No one object to it. Right. And it works 100% of the time. So we have agreed upon reality of the gravity. We have agreed upon reality of the past and future. And it is experienced and it is believed and it is never questioned. And there is no problem if you can see this, all this, as that constructed reality of a story overlaying that which never changes, that which is true and real forever, that presence, that being.ever changing, no matter what story comes upon it, story of my good self-esteem or my healthy or unhealthy, or somebody offending me or criticizing me or diminishing me or strengthening me or whatever the me.
Yeah, and that me is always based on, because it's based on feeling like it's separate. It's always insecure, you know, which is why whether most people like it or not, they're seeking validation. Oh, of course. Yeah. And, you know, what's the opposite of that is the criticism. So, you know, you essentially already got the... It would appear to me most people have this default unconscious belief that they're not good enough. Yeah. Hence the need to validate. Otherwise, why? Yeah. Or why be concerned by criticism? Because you've got an avatar or something sitting up there that needs to... To be preserved. Yes, oh yeah, I'm so inherently bad and broken and not enough and now they're pointing it out, shit, what if they're right?
I'm not worthy of being loved. But on the other hand, you know, there is again a way in which life is looking at its beautiful creation and there is nothing wrong. In any of it, in the way things are expressed, in the way things appear.Nothing wrong, Nisargadatta would say, there's nothing wrong anymore. And there is also a way in which that construct, that set of algorithms that is designed to always improve, fix, alter, modify and correct called mind. Everything is wrong. This carpet is wrong. These people are wrong. They're sitting the wrong way. They're thinking the wrong way. They're speaking in the wrong way. The tone of the voice, the accent, everything is wrong.
So there is this perspective of life totally discovering everything as it comes with no judgment whatsoever. And there is the mind, which is always critical. And if the mind is being believed, then the criticism is real. When the mind is believed, then yes, this world is horrible. Everything is wrong with everything. And there's this beautiful quote of Nisargadatta's description of the freedom or ultimate reality in which there is nothing wrong anymore. Even if the body is not perfect according to the social standards or the behavior is undesirable or perhaps the bank account is not fat enough. Those concepts are just laughable. Just, you know, appearances in the dream.
And ultimately, what's wrong even with the wrong concepts?Yeah, well, most of it's anxiety-based because if I don't do this, it's the imagination. And, you know, when I've seen that come up, if I've been lucky enough, there's been that Zen slap from the space or whatever you want to call it. And it's like, oh, so I've got all this story making going on. And it's like, well, that's all in my head. It's not out there yet. Is it even going to be out there? You know, like, I'm generating, you know, it's generating here. So it's sort of like. Taking the hands off the wheel, like letting go, and just, you know, and all of a sudden, you know.
See how it does. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just stop and then, you know, and then something goes on to this and then you might reflect later and go, well, hang on a sec, that whole big story. I mean, all that stuff is still. Probabilities or whatever, but you don't have all that loading on top of it, you know. And, of course, that happens like everything else. It's all that consciousness doing it to itself. Yeah, so it's not like... there's any doership involved with it. There's just a recognition or a registration that happens or doesn't happen, and of course no one gets a say in that either.
But obviously, as it would be the case with everyone here, I imagine there's a resonance. Yeah. You know, and that was the only thing that sort of, it wasn't all the talking and all the, You know, if I didn't have that cellular resonance with what Bob was saying, yeah, there's no way I would have stuck with it. So that's the point of it, not this veneer of us showing up or not that that's...down or anything but you know what i mean yes it's this is that that's yeah that's just on the on the surface yeah is that invitation coming from life to life in a way it kind of you know like the whole movement of energy the pulsation and throbbing and and vibration like you know one of bob's books one essence expressing experiencing appearing as everything in a way of just vibrating into different waves different thoughts different feelings different vibrations so that vibration It's the invitation to just, ah, don't try to grasp it.
Don't try to think of pointers. Don't try to wreck the pointers. Don't try to argue with pointers. Just stay open. Because that one is to speak, like Bob would say, it's heart to heart rather than mind to mind. Where I have a concept of what you mean, and I agree with your concept of what you mean, or I don't agree with the concept of what you mean. You're just comparing notes. It's not the way to do it. The resonation, there is no space for it. It's the dissonance there instead of resonance. That openness being in the discoverer mode being in the mode of that curious open field of ah let us see let's see what the consciousness is bringing up into right now beautiful that game of life dancing with itself the divine divine sport theAnd they're just that innate wakeful alertness that's there.
You know, I think that's really, that's it. That's all it is, is tasting that. It's already alert. It's already awake. And, yeah, so it's a less than a... I don't know how it happens, but, you know, and it's sort of just... It's full, you know, and it doesn't need or want anything. And, yeah, it only gets disturbed by your own imagination. That's it. That's it. Only get disturbed. The only problem you can ever have is your own imagination. While that... Which is seeing it, embracing it, allowing it, not arguing with it, that space in which the imagination, the problem arises, is absolutely undisturbed by any of it.
And it's really trying to grasp it or think yourself into it is completely futile. It's more of the relaxing and recognizing that that space of resonation is already present, already lucid here. And the problems that arise, the suffering that arises, the concepts that arise, wouldn't even arise if not for that open space. Field ofaliveness just being just being yeah already already so it is the recognition of what's already there not something that i will achieve or get to if i watch enough youtube or if i read enough book or if i sit enough long hours in the meditation no all those concepts of achieving it or understanding it or getting it later is really rehearsing the idea that this is not right here right now And that, that's exactly what the ignorance is.
Just completely overlooking the fact that if not for that awake alertness, aliveness, that open field, none of those ideas could even arise. Yeah.Yeah, and then I guess if you were to take it one step further and see that, so when seeming problems arise, so we use the term imagination, seeing that that's from the same source, it's not... Absolutely. And so then the problem's dissipated, isn't it? Because you've recognised... That that's coming from the same source. Yeah, it's all the same thing. And in that recognition, why would you bother bashing with your own imagination? You just wouldn't do it. So, yeah, that's the ignorance. You don't see that that's what it is.
You think, oh, this is... Me or... I'm the doer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got, and thank you guys, a couple of contributions from the online... Jay says, good morning all and one. And Tanya says, what about beliefs that have been looked at lots and lots of times, but you can't see it just as a story and not true? How can you see through such a sticky belief? And yeah, so sticky belief. What example of a sticky belief? I'm the body.for example people are not good enough oh yeah that's a good one yeah how do you see through it you see how the belief arises in the consciousness that is already neutral it's neither good nor bad the knowing of the thought i'm not good enough is equal to knowing of the thought i am good enough the knowing is absolutely beyond the you know the fruit of the tree of a good of evil or the judgment recognizing that this persistent thought or persistent belief arising is only there because you are before the abraham was i am before the belief i'm this or that or the other there is the i am So, and a sticky belief.
You know, like some beliefs are just... Oh, Col, did you want to answer that? Okay. Yeah, no, no, it's okay. Finish it, lady. You know, this idea about belief systems and sticky beliefs, you know, that's, if you just look at what's going on, there is this chatter up here. And you don't actually know it's up here. You actually own it. There's chattering going on, but the trees are moving in the wind and all of these other things.And really, I know nothing about this. I can't say anything about it. Everything I say is a conditioned response. I'm told that's a lie when I was this high.
Yeah? So I point that up to it and say that's a lie. But what is it? I don't know what it really is. And that applies to everything. Absolutely. So it applies to all the stuff that goes on in the mind, all the stuff that you say comes up in the mind. It's not to be listened to, really. I mean, you can hear it, you can notice it, and you can just say, well, it's like the wind. It comes and it goes. It's coming through. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I need that. Yeah. That's a great point. I just want to just mention the fact that mind chatter will always be there.
I came from a long line, a very, not long line, but a traditional Indian yoga lineage. And the head of that lineage had been meditating for 60 years. He was acknowledged within India as an accomplished yogi. One person I know asked him, does your brain chatter ever stop? He says, how long? He says, for about eight seconds. It stops. And then something comes up in the mind.He knows he's not the mind. But the brain chatter never stops. The referencing, it's a survival thing within this living whatever this is. So it's always there. If you think that you're going to become silent and still and everybody's going to be, it's not going to happen.
Well, it's being thought-free as opposed to being thoughtless. Yes, that's right. Yeah. And that's it. It's like, I think what Cole was saying, it's like an open window and the breeze goes through. So the breeze being the thoughts, you're able to sort of just recognise, oh, it's just an open curiosity of, no, it's this, but there's no ownership of it. Yes. And you can actually even say... If you've got your eyes open, there are sights and there are things. And we add meaning to everything. Just like we add meaning to what goes on up here. And it doesn't actually mean anything, what your eyes are seeing.
It's only what you've... It's only the conditioning that comes up with anything. So actually all there is, is this meaningless whatever. And the, what was the expression you used? The dream body or? Dream character. The dream character. The dream character will go on. Looking at that stuff and andin it according to its programming until it joins the rest of the molecules in the universe. Yeah. Yeah, I deliberately didn't use the term witnessing because who would be the witness? But yeah, it's that sort of thing. You're sort of just watching it all play out, including the involvement of this body-mind apparatus. But you're kind of just watching it all play out, you know.
It's not, yeah, subtle but powerful shift. And that stuff that I'll just grab it for a second, that you said of Bob, you know, being taught free. He would very, very often highlight it, thought free. Let the thought be free to come and to go as it pleases. You don't really want to have a brain damage or Alzheimer's. It is actually quite sweet that this faculty works as it has been designed to work. It's just, is it personal? Even if it says I. This is just a symbol. It's a symbolic language. It uses mental representation. It uses words. But is it believed? Does it mean that there is really anybody, any little creature there that lives there and pulls the strings and things that thought?
Nobody.know how to think a thought nobody knows what's the next thought gonna be you don't know what's the next thought so we have a couple of things here also and Tanya says thank you Kat call and everyone speaking on beliefs thoughts the pointer that consciousness is neutral and is not believing the thoughts that appear was very helpful and calls not actually knowing what things are yes thank you Tanya and thank you for the question and we also have Chandika asking would be interesting to hear your views on breast work. Oh, well, Chandika, what does it matter? Let's say we have 10 people here, 15 people here, everyone may have different opinion or different concept about breast work.
Thankfully, we don't really go there. We don't go into personal opinions and views of things. Trust your own gut. You know, if life is moving you to explore the idea of breathwork, just give credit where credit is due. Follow that intention from life. If life is moving you to play a guitar, you know, life is moving you. So there is no, again, necessity and there is no designed path that one size fits all. Everything is an expression of that same one life essence. And it may be...of interest if if life moves you uh why not and then we have another one here which uh michael is answering to deborah but i didn't see deborah's question so ah she says hello everyone and michael says looking forward to being there next week and much love yeah we're looking forward to seeing you michael too And yeah.
Who else? Any insights, contributions?Anything that comes up? Yes? I just want to add, just slightly add to it, I think, what I said. You know, it's this business of thoughts. Somebody was in this room once and they said, how do you know they're your thoughts when I was talking? They said, how do you know they're your thoughts? And I sort of sat there and I thought, Oh gosh, I don't. And how do I know that this is my site? Everything that I see is mine. Everything I hear is mine. It's this tendency for this to take ownership of everything. Yeah. And, and, and, and. Act within that and as Kat said, it's part of our survival mechanism.
It's just part of sight, hearing and the chatter of the mind. They're all part of the survival mechanism and I know that's part of the story, but really, What can you say about anything? Thoughts included.I can't actually say anything. At the moment. It's nice to just rest in the stillness. Yeah, if people aren't saying much, I would say that's a good thing because points hit home, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that is, I remember a couple of meetings where people went just all quiet and they all knew the message. And Bob says, you know, this is an invitation for the happy exploration and the celebration of that, which is always here.
And it is a natural state, which is a joyous, it's a sat-chitananda. So you guys don't want to chat about it? Go home and watch a movie. So it is, on one hand, it's beautiful. And it is, I've heard it a couple of times on Zoom, you know, when the introduction ended, no one wanted to have anything to say. Occasionally someone would say to Mike, you know, you just wiped off everything. There's no questions, there's nothing to say. And you should take it as a compliment. I say, thank you very much. Though I'm not taking any credit for whatever has been said or whatever has been heard.because nothing ever happens it's just a dance but in that dance the invitation is to really have the group investigation of that which is effortlessly joyously here so if there is anything that come up for anyone to highlight that lightness that joy of being that's you know that's just brings the flavor of existence back in front or if there is the opposite anything that objects to it anything that stands in a way to it anything like tanya was asking uh new zealand tanya about you know the persistent thoughts because as ben was also saying you know nothing can trouble you that's that's nisar gadada's quotes except in your own imagination so yes whatever can trouble you it is part of the imagination but we can bring it up we can look at it we can dismantle it together we can bring it up and just bring that light of investigation and just pull it apart together what are they those things that obscure what are those concepts i get emails also i have individual calls when people would tell me you know my work situation there is a bully and i have to go there and it's happening every day and how am i gonna be how am i gonna just not give into it how am i not gonna feelflared up all the sort of survival defense mechanisms well that's not on the menu if the situation is like there is an immediate threat in a situation and of course that nervous system will recognize bullying as such even though of course there is probably marginal danger of of a physical death because of that but the system nervous system evolved with its sensitivities to first of all object to any life threat and then next of all object to any discomfort So of course there will be an incredible discomfort in the body in a situation when there is someone who obviously is not looking with their heart, because then you just see the miracle of this moment, just the wonderful, blissful presence of the absolute.
But looking with the mind and saying, oh, your socks are wrong, or your attitude is wrong, or your face is wrong, and everything's wrong, then naturally the response will be, and that's the loving response, will be contraction, resistance, pain, loving response, because deep in my heart, I know that bullying is just not what the absolute deserves. It's just not. So yes, celebrating the fact that there isis a pain in response to mistreatment. Is absolutely healthy. This is the healthy response. And the space in which the healthy response to the threatening situation is presented, the space can celebrate the healthy response. In a way, as I did mention before, there is a subtle sweetness in sadness there is subtle sweetness in disappointment because that disappointment is the is the way love says ah I wish a beautiful, loving and kind response.
That's what I'm for. I'm against the bullying. I'm against the criticism, diminishing. I'm for all that loving kindness. How beautiful. If you can't see that there is the underlying energy of that gentleness, that loving care, well, look again. It is there. It is there. And that... Connecting with that part straight away takes the tension out of the nervous system and then it gets out a little bit loosens up the victim story and nowin that neutral space, there may be a healthy response coming up. Whatever it is, there may be a different response coming up. Just going back to that reminder when you started off, Sat Chit Ananda.
That's on the menu now. Yeah. It's always on the menu. And just drawing back. From the appearanceIt's obvious. It's being, consciousness. And bliss, it's just here. Yes. I'm sorry, I just responded by saying where else could it be? Yeah, only here. Only here. It's obvious. It's so beautiful. And accessible every year, the ever-present year. Always accessible. And it seems to be forgotten rather than lost. It's just forgotten. But there it is. Here it is.Actually, I think sometimes stimulation that overrides the mind that comes from the body, such as when you're sick or even, you know, that we can't, often stated that people have had great spiritual awakenings in the middle of torture.
What does that say? You know, it says something profound. Or when you get very unwell and, you know, the body is sending signals which are really significantly, you know, trying to gain the attention all the time. But still, that all happens within the now, you know. Which isn't affected by any of that. And the fact that people can wake up in torture chambers, like, I don't know how many people do, but there is... Not people wake up. Well, people are having deeply spiritually awakening experiences when they realise they aren't the body that's being tortured. So isn't that amazing? Isn't that, that is just so optimistic.
It's so beautiful. But yeah, the stimulation that comes from the body and then the mind chatter that comes because the body's going through something, that can be overwhelming. But the fact is there's something that's watching all of that, not affected by that. Isn't that beautiful? How lucky we are. Bob had actually, he had that beautiful advice.for people who were, and actually few people I heard,
took the advice in these rooms over the last decade and he would say you know if there is a psychological suffering just amplify it just go right into it just pull it up amplify it what's the worst that can happen If the pain is unbearable, this brilliant mechanism will just switch off.
Like in the torture, the biggest challenge always for any tortures was that people would go unconscious. How to keep them conscious? Because any psychological suffering, the worst that can do, it's just like a pause. It will just switch off. So people who had panic attacks, who had incredibly strong anxiety disorder, They would actually, and I remember particularly one lady coming here and talking in the meeting, which was probably recorded somewhere in there. She said, is the mind bluffing? You just really challenge it and call it on its bluff. Okay, I'm happy to die out of fear. I'm happy to die in the anxiety. Render me unconscious right now.
Just... And it never happened. Never. And I heard a few other people also confirming. It's the mind bluffing. It's just, it's leading that red light, danger, danger, danger. But really, there is nothing there. So because it is all imagined, it's not going to...Leaving. Yes, the fear of feeding off itself. So I was one of these people that suffered from severe anxiety and panic disorder. As an example, halfway on a flight to Australia from New Zealand, they were going to turn the plane around. I was in such a bad way. But I'm speaking for first-hand experience on the topic. So it's very true that in the end it's all just sensation and a horrible feeling.
And, I mean, I've been on... A shitload of planes since and I still can't sleep. I've never been asleep on planes, but there's really not even an iota, I don't think. If I was to compare, I was like a different person. But it is, it's exactly that, having the courage to face it and say, well, what's the worst that can happen here? Because there's a perceived belief that if X, Y, Z will happen if I don't get out of here or whatever, you know. And it literally is just having the courage to look at that and see that, you know.Yeah, I guess, you know, like courage, earnestness, compassion.
These sort of things, they can't be contrived either. So you know it's always coming from that. That intelligence. There's plenty of things you can pretend to be, but you can't pretend to be courageous if it's true courage. You can't pretend to be compassionate if it's true compassion and so forth. So, you know, and I think, you know, the earnest thing, like if the earnest... You know, Nisikadatta used to say that quite a lot. It's the earnestness more than the path that matters. You know, if you really... And that earnestness comes from a deep... It's beyond you because essentially it's like a moth to a flame.
You're committing self-suicide. So there's nothing in it for... Yes. For an entity to want to know the ultimate truth, so to speak. Yeah. So I have a question about that. Sure. Some great beings say it really matters to be earnest. About the path and then others say well no it's there's there's no doer that nothing you can do so so where how do you reconcile those two right those two well i've i'vefeel they're saying the same thing. Yes. Actually, because it's just a mis... In my opinion, because it's the earnestness... Discovered. That's driving you to be here, to understand what's being said, is it not?
And whether there's a doer there or not, whether you have that, it doesn't really make a difference because both are true, in my opinion. Well, I'm so damn earnest that I'm not driving this because... Well, there you go. So that's right. It's full on, you know, hours and hours. You know, sorry in my personal case, but it's just that the teachers say different things. It can drive you up the wall when you listen to all the different myriads, and a lot of them are highly contradictive. But, you know, again, it comes down... I don't mind that. Yeah. Because I can... Yeah. Find my way. I can work my way through those differences, but this is a bit of a sticking point.
So what is it, the sticky point? Because there's the no-doer and therefore that doesn't matter with one's earnest or not. Was that your point? Well, it matters because the people who say different things in that regard, I respect, I value their opinion or their view.So given that I'm fairly earnest, well, I'm very earnest at the moment, so that's a lot of time consumption. So I'm interested in what so in relation to... Do you have choice about it? Well, I don't. It doesn't feel like I have choice. There you go. Right at the moment. That's the question down the drain. Nothing you can do anyway. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so it's just more the mind just doing its dance, right? Yeah. I got a couple of contributions from our audience. So we have Chandika says, thanks for the answer cut. I remember Bob refusing to give a practice when someone asked for a practice, laughing out loud. The problem with paying too much attention to thought is it accelerates thoughts even more and you can get in the head even more presence is beyond the head beautiful thank you chandika and we have ram and bob once said you lot will go to a cafe and yap on about this stuff for hours then you come here and sit there like a stand mullets and he used to piss himOh, laughing out loud.
Yeah, that's just such a brilliant grasp of Bob's language and essence. Thank you for that. And we have Bradley says, the belief I am unworthy is no different from the belief I am lovable or I am late for lunch. Yeah, they are all thoughts appearing in word from in the department of middle management called the mind. Don't try to eliminate middle management. It will only... Create more bureaucratic destruction. Just understand the nature of thought as birds in the sky of your mind. That is so beautifully put. Thank you, Bradley. That's, yeah, lovely. Dino, you. And I guess that middle management is what's claiming to see.
Oh, I'm seeing. Oh, I'm having this thought. I'm raising my arm. This is all middle management. And, well, if I can raise my arm, then I can have a choice. I can do this. I can do that. I can think in this way, I can do breath work and have really good experiences or I can be extremely earnest or if I realize I'm not the doer, this is all middle management talking. These are all just thoughts. I'm just playing out.The idea of these thoughts just appearing, where are they appearing? To whom are they appearing for? You know, and then in that, you can see that this middle management is an absolute hoax in the sense that there's no one running the show and there's no entity that it's referring to.
So there are just thoughts and in those thoughts they claim to be a me or a my, but there is no one who's seen as such. There is no one who's creating these thoughts. There is no middle manager. There never has been and never will be. There's not one here, there or anywhere because that's the show. That's part of the great trick, the great, I could use some other words, but it's an incredible show. It really is, and the only show in town. And you can't go to show on us. And there's no escaping the show, and there's no getting the show, there's no leaving the show, there's no in or out or up or down or superior or inferior.
It is the show, and the patterns and the expressions of it are just amazingly unfathomable, unknowable, un-figureoutable. You can see patterns and you can sort of... And that's what they are. They're just patterns. And the energy, and they're, you know, the most amazing thing about this show is the emptiness, like the dream world.like nature of it. And once it's seen as a dream, anything and everything is, as it always has been anyway, but it's the whimsical nature of it that's like, wow. Horror, like what you were saying before, like the sticky things and bad things and torturous things and everything becomes... Everything's included in this show.
There's nothing, there's no way out of the show. There's nothing excluded from it. There's no way out of it. So everything is included. And the show itself is the main thing. It's not the details of the show as such. It's the fact that there's a frigging show and this is it. That's the most... The most amazing part of it all. And what is that show? That show is now. It has a title. Tell us the title. That's the importance of being honest. Yeah, exactly. The other thing is to me, so the implications of all of that is the risk of letting things unfold without you controlling anything.
Try that. Because it unfolds anyway, ever unfolding. And you can see you don't have any... The illusion of control. Yes, that's right. That's all you've ever had. Yeah, that's it. And the freedom of that. And the loss of tension around all of that.It's a great invitation, that one. You see, and things just present. Bloody hell. Profound. Well, you know, not that I can't say that I have a lot of that experience in like that. I can't say it's always like that, but a lot of it is now able to be like that. There is no such thing as always, you know. One of the most loved and celebrated quotes of Nisargadatta is, you know, wisdom is nothing and love is everything and they not permanent they floating and dancing and coming up I am nothing this is wisdom I am everything this is love and I'm neither and I'm both and up and down and up and down it goes because without the day there would be no night without the summer there would be no winter so yes the the dream goes and and attention follows the thought And the thought unfolds itself as the self-preservation, as the dream character following its goals and desires and ambitions and whatever.
And then attention withdraws and look, zooms out and wow, what an incredible play. And then it goes in again. Oh, yum. Gosh. Yeah, constant throbbing, pulsating. Ever moving. Pulsating, throbbing like life, like heartbeat, like breath in, breath out. Like everything, nothing. The love, the wisdom. This is the...Yes. Constant change. This is the impermanence. Everything that is expressed is expressed dualistically. There is no expression. So that's why we say it is Maya, it is illusion, it's a dreamlike. It is, it never happened. You know, like the dream at night. There's so much going on when you're dreaming. And then, poof, all gone. And yet, is it real?
Did it happen? Did it not happen? It appears to be. The whole duality is an appearance only. But what a dream it is. What fun. What fun. Sometimes. Jamie, we didn't hear you. We didn't hear you. And you're saying that, come on, give us a minute. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Cat shooting.Is the camera pointed at me? Yeah. Yeah. You're wrong, mate. Yes. Welcome to my dream. Hey, look, you know, when we dream at night, our so-called nighttime dreams then, at the moment the dream's taking place to us, the dream is 100% believed in. It's real. There's no questioning of the dream, is it? This is...
This is the reality. It's only upon waking that we sort of question, how did I get from there to there? And all of a sudden my girlfriend was my mother. And how did, you know, none of it makes sense, you know. From the so-called waking state, we can see it as just a manifestation of the mind. And this waking state is exactly the same. If it's investigated from the point of awareness, you can see that nothing in this manifestation makes sense just as the dream world. Like if you actually look under the hood of what we call reality, Everything's fucking backwards. You know, like nothing makes sense, you know.
Healthcare should be sick care. You know, education is indoctrination. You know, like nothing, nothing. I was going to say you're a conspiracy theorist. But nothing.But it's true. When it's investigated and you look under the hood, nothing in this appearance has any reality to it. It's just the same as a dreaming state. But because it seems to continue on in so-called time, longer in duration, then it's taken, well, this is the reality and that's the dream world. No, this is a dream too. It's an appearance. And if it's investigated, and it's only our participation in it that actually... Asserts any reality to it because there is no reality to the Nama Rupa.
It's name and form like you were saying, Cole. It's our conditioning, it's our belief that we call, oh, that's Cole and that's a mirror and, you know, we give everything names and forms and then we apply meaning. And purpose to all those names and forms. But upon seeing it as similar to the dream state, then you're no longer as invested or interested in it. And it requires, the appearance in a way requires our energy to sustain it. And the energy is the energy of belief through our anxieties and fears. Oh, my God, what's going to happen to me? What's going to happen next in this appearance?
The kind of...the reality that it seems to have. And from the more, let's say, awakened state, it becomes more sort of ephemeral and you can see the dreamlike nature of it. That nothing and there is no actual meaning or purpose to any of it and there's a freedom in that and it's just the dream just is an amusement it's a kind of an amusement park that continues to appear But yeah, that's all I wanted to mention just because you spoke of the dream world, that this is a dream too. It's an appearance. Who's it appearing to? It's appearing to me. Who am I? You know, and that's what it, that's all it really boils down to.
I, you know, I can't speak for anybody else. But I know that this body is an appearance. The mind, what do you call it? The middleman. I like that. Middle management. Middle management. The middle management or, you know, the press secretary of intelligence, which arises and interprets. That's an appearance as well. Yeah. Yeah, just something you said, Jamie, about everything being back to the front, such as... Healthcare and yeah. If we're looking through a There's a scene going on.And apparently it's the optics of the eye and the law of optics. we're actually seeing in a field of blackness. So you know how the way light works with positive and negative.
Yeah. And we see upside down. And the brain turns it around. So the boy who looked into this stuff, you can see how everything's back to front. Well, what could those optic nerves see with that life energy? Yeah. You know, in a sense, you can take that eyeball out, you know, and remove it from the life energy. It has no ability to see. That's, I don't know, the way I see it, you can talk about the brain, the way the brain works and that, but that's all in the appearance as well. It's just appearance. And what sees in the dream. Yeah, exactly. You have visions in a dream.
Yeah. Give him the mic. Oh, it's just... Oh, no, we want to hear you. And also, like, I don't know when I go to sleep and when I'm dreaming and when I'm not. Like, I don't, there's no moment when I'm asleep. There's no moment, like, I might close my eyes and, okay, am I dreaming?Or not dreaming? And when do I wake up? And what, suddenly the eyes open? Like, is that awake? Or was it, you know, before? Often you'll... you'll be just resting on the couch. Yeah. And all of a sudden there'd be a bang at the door, someone knocks on the door, and it wakes you up and you go, shit, I didn't even know I was asleep.
Yeah. Not until something sort of alerts you out of that state, you think you're just sitting there. The contrast. You need a contrast. There is no distinction. It's sort of a spectrum that... That at any time you could be in that sort of... But there's no... Like, I can't find a moment when I go to sleep or when I wake up. It's a different... Like, I... Yeah. Yeah. Where's that moment? Like... Am I awake? Am I asleep? Are we always awake or are we always asleep? You know, it's like... Well, that consciousness is unchanging in all those states. They're just states that the sort of mind sort of goes through and...
And phases in and out of, you know. And what's always there. Yeah, in all states, yeah.That's why you can feel like you're still awake, but your mind is actually shut down until something pulls you out of it. But from a consciousness point of view, I was just sitting here. It's like, oh, apparently the mind was shut down. But the awareness never actually shuts down. It's like deep sleep, you know. We have no recollection of that because there's no apparatus operating that can record the memories or have any sense of time or space. But if someone asks you, how did you sleep? I slept well. You know, and there's a...
That awareness is even there. That's what can pull you out of that deep sleep state, you know, when all of a sudden a rock comes through your window. You're aware something is noticing that change. That click back in. Yeah, there's a great relief when it's seen the appearance has no solidity or reality to it. It is just an appearance. And the relief is that, A, I'm not doing the appearance. So therefore, I'm not doing this. I'm not doing the thoughts. They're all just happening.So the investment in it diminishes and it just becomes, did someone say an amusement park? Was it you that said that? I don't know.
Not this time, but yes, I've been there. Yeah. It's been said. We watched the plot change and it's just an amusement in that. And it's an amusement for the character because... You want to say something? Because the character... The character... The character operates in time and space.But us, that reality isn't in time or space. It's timeless, spaceless. What's the other word? Like, let's say... Eternal. Like what is the definition of the word eternal? Eternal is that which has no beginning and has no end. So can anybody find a beginning to this moment? Can we find an end to this moment? When did this moment end?
Welcome to eternity. You know, it's as simple as that. Eternity is this. This is it. And in that eternity is the appearance of time and space, of a character that continues to age and grey and stories change. But can you look back? So I presume everybody is awake to what we are. We all understand. that presence awareness. Now, you could say the understanding has been here for, say, I don't know, let's say 10 years. If I go back 10 years and I recall a memory now of, say, an awakening experience, I look back, there was no one awake then. The awakeness is only ever present.
There wasn't a character 10 years ago that woke up. That's just a memory. There's no awakeness. The awakeness can only be in this eternal present moment with no beginning and no end that is eternally present. I wasn't awake in the past. I won't be awake in the future because they're all just concepts. They're just made up stuff that we can bring in to this eternal, no beginning, no end, presence, awareness, here, now, this is it. Jamie, do you think there is, though, a state for most of us where we weren't really grasping the understanding, the awareness that there's only now? And in fact, we're very much caught up in the personhood.
And at some stage, an experience occurred. Which woke you up very clearly to see that you're not that. It's a story. Yeah, it's a story. It's a story. It's not the...reality. So in the story of this character, 100%. I could rattle off stories of that for hours, but there was no awake Jamie there. There's no Jamie that woke up. I can recall this experience, but the awakeness is only a present. There's a story of Jamie in time that woke up, that got married, that did this and imagines itself in the future. But the awakeness is only present. It's only this, this. There is. Yeah. But the thing is, though, many people that you will talk to in the community have no concept of what you've just said.
They have no grasp of that and they think it's bullshit. That's fine. But that's the character because the character, the self-centre, can't get it. It's not available for the character. So of course it's going to see it as bullshit or it's going to seek it or it's going to try and understand it. And the character moves through time and space. So there's a story there. In this is what it is. What story can you attach to it?Even if it's made up, you know? Yeah, which we like to use concepts to attach to it. It's within consciousness. It's all there. It's in eternity in this present moment.
Yeah, I just wanted to add something. I don't know if it's been touched on in this meeting or not, but yeah, when the... so-called dream character wakes up is just the dream character that's waking up well it's not even it's the awakeness waking up to the dream character okay that's probably even say it let me just put a third one because whoever is going to resonate with any description all of them are just a description none is the described for me no character wakes up And no awakeness wakes up. Awakenness is already awake. A dream character is just a costume. So what actually happens in so-called experience, the illusion of separate selves fades away, drops away.
So it's more or less like stepping down from a stage, but who steps down? There's no one there. Wakefulness is there before the event. Wakefulness is there during the event. And is there after event? Because wakefulness is always present, ever present in the eternity of now. The illusion of imagined self believing itself to have the control and riding, driving the show. Illusion of being someone, some person,That one is not sustainable. That one, before the event, let's say 10 years ago, wakefulness was wearing a costume of me, Katarina, the self, the separate self, that wants to and longs to waking up. And then during the event, that costume, that illusion of being Katarina was seen through.
And that illusion of being separate self couldn't survive the event. And after the so-called event, the wakefulness is untouched, hasn't been ever. But that one illusion is gone. So there is illusion. Illusion of self is gone. Therefore, illusion of control is gone. Illusion of driving the show is gone. Illusion of self-center is gone. But wakefulness hasn't been touched all the way through. Nothing ever happened for the wakefulness. It's just one dream. You can use the analogy of the night. Technically, it is just the same way. Like there was before and after believing in Santa Claus. Before and after believing in flat earth. Prior to your awakening, you had no concept of that.
That awakening to the... Prior to the so-called dissolution of the self, there was millions of concepts of what awakening is all wrong. All wrong. I had a concept of awakening being a great sense of bliss, being a great...great sense of completeness. There was a concept, there was an illusion of self and part of the construction of that illusion of self was the illusion of what awakening is and how it is going to be when it finally happens to that dream character in the future. All of that absolute bogus, none of that could ever be true. And the awakening was really stepping out, relaxing out of that bullshit, of that incredibly elaborated, colorful, bullshit story of me gaining or achieving the great enlightenment in the great future.
How many years in your life did you live in that space? Well, that one was evolving and changing also. From one Zen Sangha to another Zen Sangha, the illusion of self gaining something or becoming someone was slightly different, was changing. Ah, okay. So it is going to be then later on there was a belief that, aha, there is no self. Now, yes, I hear it. I believe it. I believe there is no self. And I understand it intellectually. I agree with that. There is still a self that believes it and agrees and all that shit. And that dream was sustained by the energy of belief.
But the wakefulness underneath was never touched. It wasn't. If you use the example, go back to the dream state, right? We've all had uncomfortable dreams.dreams right dreams where everything's gone pear-shaped for the dream character the nighttime dream character right which is another egoic self-centered that believes i'm the center of this dream and there's all these characters everything's gone pear-shaped and then all of a sudden you pull yourself out of the dream and if you've felt that that sense of relief when There's a first waking up, it's like, oh, shit, none of that happened. It's a similar, very, very similar sensation. But there is a point of skipping and waking.
Yeah, but if you change as an awareness, and there's a sense, especially when we first come out of the dream state, If you're attentive and notice, you know that there's a space there before this dream character comes in and asserts itself. Have you ever sort of, you know, you wake up and you go, I don't know my name, I don't know who I am. There's just awareness. There's no identification. Then the mind rushes in and goes, oh, that's right, it's me and I've got to be at work. There's that. Your whole life to catch up on. So that hasn't changed from the scary dream where you lose all your money and it's just a dream.
You wake up, oh my God, that wasn't true. And then the new dream comes in, which is this dream, and asserts itself, yeah, but I've got to be at work in five minutes. But there's something in that that hasn't changed. Yes, I understand that.You know, I have had the experience. I have had the experience, and, you know, I just say this as an example of pure unbounded awareness, didn't even know if the body slept or not. Went on for days and days. So there was a pure unbounded awareness. It was an experience, and eventually the mind came back. So I absolutely have profound experience of pure unbound awareness with the sensations from the body so minor it didn't affect.
So what you're trying to say is that it isn't there now? Well, no, the mind is strange now. That is there. Of course, that was an awakening experience. So experience had you. Really? That was an experience had mind. Experience is there all the time. It's a falling away of all that. Correct. Right? So it wasn't really an experience then. It was the falling away of experiences. It's a falling away. And that changed everything. To reveal what's already there. So the thing is, there was a before and an after. On the on the in the appearances yes in the appearances of course when there is an awakening you see it's always there and it's only now i understand that i understand that so much but people who have not had experiences like that directly believe that there's something to achieve you know what i mean they get confused nothing is rejected None of those experiences are rejected.
They're all part of it. So it's not that I know people whose minds dropped and never came back. And they operate very well. They run business.So there are different qualities and levels of experiencing complete unbounded awareness. But it comes and goes because this is the platform of change. It comes and goes. It's an experience that awakens you. Oh, fuck, I'm not that. Again, it's all the scenery, isn't it? Yeah, that's right. It's all the scenery that comes and goes, and the seer doesn't come and go. No, that's right, but you don't know that until you've had the direct experience. But the one who knows it or doesn't know is part of Maya.
Yes, it is, but there is a direct experience of having some kind of awakening. Where the mind is dropped enough for you to see, ah, I'm not the mind. I've always been here. And it's timeless. It's spaciousness. And there's a play on the screen of life going on. But until you have an awakening like that, you can't know that. But every morning before the mind downloads all the shit of what day of the week it is and how long before I get to work, that unbounded, free, unadulterated, pure wakefulness without a veil of a story is there. Yes, but nobody identifies that. Yes, the one who wants to identify that is again the dream character.Yeah.
These other people. No, no, because there are many people here who are seekers. There are many people. So I'm just trying to explain that there are many different levels and direct experiencing which changes everything. But it happens differently for different people. It stays for longer periods than different people. So that's all I'm stating and that's why I'm stating that. It's the fact that there is a before and an after of that direct awareness that I am not that. In time. Yeah, in time, yes. Yes, Bob would say, there is the words that Bob would use, everything is valid in the appearance. You believe in angels, they're real.
You believe in levels of consciousness, they're real. You believe in Jehovah, he's real. You believe in before, after, that's real. The thing is that all that is changing is Maya and that which never changes is the reality. Yeah, from the dream perspective, dream character perspective, yes, experiences are changing. I had more experiences than you. I had better experiences than you. There are people who didn't have experiences, therefore they can't have comparison, all that stuff. Is valid in the appearance absolutely what we're pointing out is beyond and before and completely transcending the appearance and that is never not here never ever not here so many people not awake to that Yes, but you know what?
Before...Before I sat on my individual meeting with Bob, I did not have any of those experiences. And thank God for that. I remember Julia was speaking with Bob also, that she never had those type of experiences. Bob said, good on you. So you don't have all that nonsense story, how do I get back to it? You are free from that. So if anyone who is listening or seeking or whatever is looking for a particular pleasurable experience, don't go to drugs. Go to a chocolate cake. Go to sex. But really, it doesn't matter. Yeah. And all this, everything that seems to happen, the sight, the hearing, the ideas, the thoughts, everything is just part of it.
And actually, you can say nothing about it. It's an amazing show. But you can say nothing about it. You can't tell anyone either. No. There's no one there. Even if it appears after so many people. Let's shut this show down. Yeah, no way in, no way out. Well, I guess it's an amazing show if the character is Mickey Mouse.And Mickey Mouse is going to wake up from this show. It's impossible. How can Mickey Mouse, how can a dream character wake up from the dream that it's in? And remain the Mickey Mouse. Yes, it's not. It's not even possible. Oh, no, that's, what's that? That's it.
That's all, folks. Yes, yes. How do you end it with, that's all, folks? No, no, nothing profound. Do you have a last word? I don't know. Do I have a last word? Let us see. Open your eyes and the Father will see. Well, okay. I just said cognizing emptiness came up. So I find it's always interesting how people are always looking to find, you know, the location of mind or so-called consciousness. And, of course, you know, if you're more of a materialist, scientific, reductionist type, then you're looking at anything that's empirical, anything that's observable to do that. But very few people seem to ask, well, what is it that's cognizing the brain and the form and all of this?
You know, they're always looking within. Those bits to find the answer rather than saying, well, hang on, cells getting formed, you know, through this biology and whatever. Well, it's the space that's holding all of that, that's doing all that animation.It's doing all that cognition. And that's like the massive elephant in the living room, isn't it? Because it's sort of like, well, there's your answer. You know, the space itself is consciousness. Cognizing emptiness. I have a couple of things. Cognizing emptiness, yeah. And thank you for that. I have just a couple of very quick ones. I don't want to exclude anyone. I was just... Chandika says, Nisargadatta smoking beers while pointing to I am, that was itself a badass.
And Ram asks, dude was a total weapon. And then Chandika says, on the subject of seeking, I think Nisargadatta said, if you got it, you won't be here. Yeah, that might be a contextual. We are here and that was established long before because of the love for the exploration. There is no reason of seeking. I mean, majority of this group is beyond the need. And Nisargadatta itself, he was there, even though he wasn't a seeker. Benjamin says, there is no dreamer and no dream, only dreaming. The seer and the seen are ripples in the same motionless sea, the sea ink. Beautiful. We are not caught in the dream.
We are the dreaming itself. That is absolutely beautifully put. And Sally says, it is great to hear everyone. Can people who are talking put...the talking stick close to their mouth when they speak. Yes, especially those with wide gestures. So thank you, everyone. Thank you for the participation. And for the next one, yes, Sally, thank you for the reminder. Bring it on the beginning.