What is the sense of "me"? nonduality investigation. 14 Sept 2025

And now, Ross. Ross. Joseph. Thank you. So as we made it a tradition, I'd like to invite, open up the possibility for anyone who would like to replace me here for half an hour and give us an introduction. You might consider it one day, not today. Because everybody knows that they are. And this is the final truth and final understanding that everybody is already confident 100% that it is who you are or what you are. The existence, the being, the consciousness. Every time you look, every time you check, you're conscious. There's no doubt about that. Well, when you are unconscious, you don't check, so there's no bother, there's no problem.

But being unconscious is only theoretical, you can't experience it. And we are talking about that which is experienceable, that which is happening right now. Not in the theory, not in the past, not in the potentiality. But right now.And right now you are present and aware. You are aware of being present. You are aware of being here. And that is your essential nature. And if anyone has any objections or beliefs that may be standing in a way of fully realizing it, we can investigate those objections and those beliefs. And I really like the little input and challenge that Cole gave us last week, and maybe we should pick up from there.

The sense of me, the sense of identity. What is it? How does it feel when it shows up, when it is not there? Are you always there, whether the sense of me is there or not? And obviously it's just a sense. It's not your nature. It's not your identity. It's just a sense. But the way in which that sense of agency, the sense of things being personal, the sense of things being very often uncomfortable, offensive. That sense fueled by the energy of belief becomes so believable that suddenly it feels like this is reality. Oh shit, this is me. This is who I am. I am that little me.

Oh my God, I lost it. I had a glimpse. I know there is.But now, shit, it feels real. What am I going to do? How am I going to get out of it? Quickly, pointers, videos, books. Help! But then, unfortunately, from that perspective, there is no help. And this is, again, the metaphor of the actor forgetting that it's acting. I think one of Bob's students and friend Cameron brought it up to the next level, bringing up the idea that this actor, the poor bugger, hit himself in the head on the stage and completely forgot that this is not real. And suddenly there are guns shooting and suddenly there are people fighting.

And the actor, the dream character thinks this is all happening to me. This is real. There is no recognition, no recollection of the fact that this situation didn't exist until you woke up in the morning and it just got downloaded out of the, from the cloud of the, of the dimension of the mind it isn't real but it feels real when it does so when when the sense of self comes online and things feel personal and there is a sense of contraction and there is a sense of heart pounding or the shallow breath, sense of anxiety, or shit, you know, this again, I can't handle it.longing for the truth and the sense of confinement that this is not it.

I'm trapped again. So what then? This is the place where the investigation really is required, is really a tool. But who is there to use it? Well, if the sense of self feels real, It may as well, if it believes that it got something or it lost something or it is something or it's locating somewhere, it's just a bundle of beliefs. But then it really doesn't matter whether the investigation is something that just happens or is something that is performed. By the seemingly real someone. The whole conundrum of explaining or understanding or having it all worked out should be put aside and giving it a fair chance what is really happening in this moment.

What is that sense of things being personal? What is that sense of being offended or being unlovable or being... Of just feeling that things are so personal and everything is so about me and me is so limited.taking down every little detail of that incredible game of that incredible illusion that came out yes that came out of that sense of expansion in which there is nothing wrong there is no thinking there is just the happening the flow of life And then diving back into that contraction in which, shit, you know, where is it? Where is that sense of expansion? Now there is a me. How did I do it?

How am I going to go back to it? How am I going to get it again, find it again? I've lost it. What happened? That this whole picture has changed so radically when there was an offense or there was a weather shift, a light shift, that suddenly there is a self in charge again. There is an illusion of me being the doer, being a controller, and being absolutely desperate to manipulate reality to mitigate that sense of self and go back to sense of the expansiveness. We can leave aside for a moment whether the me can even do it, because it can't, but just look at the very, very details of how that grand illusioncomes on board how out of the pure cognizing emptiness pure seeing life looking out and looking in and just just acknowledging just dancing just playing with itself suddenly got trapped in the illusion of confinement and limitation and identity.

What happened for that illusion to suddenly appear so realistic, so believable and so convincing? What did the body have to do to constitute that illusion? What did the mind have to do for that sense of me to suddenly be so believable and so persistent? So we're looking at the sensations, we're looking at the perceptions, we're looking at narrative. What is happening in every channel that out of that fastness, suddenly we have the very, very narrow perspective, very narrow viewpoint of me. And me in a state of resistance, I hate it. I don't like it. I can't take it. So the resistance is obvious. How the resistance is reflected in the body.

You may in the moment of that confinement, in the moment of being trapped in a grip,See what's happening with the heartbeat. Is it faster? Is it slower? What's happening with the breath? If there is a stress in the body, breath usually gets shallow. A little faster, a little more shallow. But it might be different. It might be different in every case. It might be different from moment to moment. When it happens now and I don't particularly want to invite anyone to imagine how it is to be a limited self because that's just unnecessary but if there is anyone who actually experiences it right now the sense of i'm not good enough or this is me there the must be there must be a better way of of living the world of experiencing this moment i still feel sense of something there being personal someone there looking and seeing and i'm seeing only from one corner one perspective that must be a proof that there is an agency there is a self or ego whatever you want to call it if there is any inkling of a possibility of that scenario to be believed.

Now let's look how that piece of software comes online. How this simulation of being an imagined selfactually done because if you see the trick behind the magic behind that illusion every time it comes online you're going to be mind blown again and again of how brilliant this life essence how convincing this set of software is to create that seeming perspective of the individual. So the heart may be pouncing a little bit. The breath may be a little bit shallow. These are good things to notice. Mental images, what may be happening there. You know, if there is a sense of distress, there may be a narrative also.

There may be that survival instinct flared up, defense mode, fight, flight, freeze. This is about me. Something is about to happen to me. I have to protect me. That will be the translation that the mind does. The body will do its own pattern and the mind will translate it into language. But as we watch it, as we watch every element of that incredible game, Where are we watching it from? Are we seeing the objects in consciousness, the elements of that grand illusion, examining them from the point of judgment.Shit, you know, I have to look quicker, quicker, look more. So it goes away. This is my way of manipulating reality to get out of that confinement.

Well, now this is the mind watching the mind that is also to be recognized. Until there is enough of that relaxed attention absolutely neutral curious entertained by the whole process really wanting to nail it down really wanting to learn that not wanting that situation to change. If there is a sense of something being very personal, oh, beautiful, my gosh, what a chance now to see through it. I want it to stay. I don't want it to go. Let it be here. Yeah, but my son has offended me or my wife has left me or I got the cancer diagnosis. This is serious. Yes, the feeling of seriousness.

That feeling. Wow. Yes, but I don't want this feeling to be there. Wonderful. So we have the feeling of seriousness and we have I don't want this to be there. How appropriate. How wonderful. Of course. Why would you want it? I mean, come on, it's healthy. But there is also a contraction and there is a stress. My shoulders, my back, my jaws.Everything is wrong. Yes, so there are sensations also appearing and there is a feeling that those sensations are wrong and uncomfortable. All part of that scene to be learned about. So this is how the sense of things being personal and the sense of. Sense of me and the identity, the claiming, the belief that this is who I am, that limitation, that sense, this is my identity, this is I.

How this actually gets, how it gets simulated. So there is a narrative, there are sensations, there are perceptions, there is resistance. And all of that is viewed from that cognizing emptiness, that space-like awareness. All of that is absolutely fascinating and mind-blowing. And until you are able to watch those things without needing them to go away,there is of course still that agency seeking the picture and clouding the view. There is still no clear seeing. Seeing the magic trick clearly reveals it and makes it magnificent, makes it brilliant, makes it absolutely wow. You fall in love with the illusion. So the sense of self comes online again.

Mmm, fantastic. I can learn more about it. How it is done. You know, it's like how this actor on the scene hit his head and believes now that this is all real.Yes. If you say so. He's very playful today, isn't he? Really playful. Yeah. He would stay. Yes, so this is the difference, you know, the way he is always present. Always responsive to the environment, not engaged with the translation of what is happening, not engaged with the idea that, oh, but this is happening to me and it shouldn't be happening and this is wrong. So he doesn't have to watch sensations and watch all that projections, all that ways in which that illusion is being sealed.

Because it doesn't subscribe to it.But if that sense of things being personal is still arising, and I know people who have been around Bob for 40 years or more, And for whatever reason, that sense of things being personal, a sense of self is still arising. And I can hear them saying, oh, I get caught up in the me. But if the me is not real, how could you get caught up? And who is that got caught up? But the difference is only in the language. And you never know, perhaps throughout the rest of your life, just like the sense of cold and hot, the sense of me may be appearing.

And the cognizing emptiness, your essential nature, has absolutely no problem with anything that appears. Space has no problem with anything that appears. So if that will continue appearing and it will bring joy and amazement,What's the problem? That's just another appearance. The sense of me is just another appearance. Like in that metaphor, when Bob is talking about get a glass of a blue water out of the sea or a bucket of a blue water, but in a glass you actually see it better. So you go to the sea, the sea appears blue in a nice sunny day because in a grey day it appears grey. But you get the glass of water and you see it isn't blue.

But then you pour it back and it still looks blue. In the same way, that is exactly the metaphor. And Bob had tons of metaphors about that sense of me, the sense of things being personal. It's just a sense. It appears as if there is a me or there is an agency. It only appears in the sensations interpreted by narration. But all sensation doesn't have any concept. It's just a raw sensation. But then narration interprets it as, oh, there is a reference point, there is a me. And this is happening to me. This is personal. This is important. This is serious. So it's only that...

Habit of interpreting things that creates that persistent sense of separation, isolation. Before the language, it wasn't possible. There was no sense that I am theboundary of my skin or I am my thoughts because that requires a thought. He knows nothing of it. Yeah, so actually having that really investigated, this is a true investigation. It is not about, yeah, yeah, I've done it. Yeah, I know there's no me. So that's not an investigation. That's adopting another belief system. One belief system, there is a me. Another belief system, there is no me. They're equal. They're both useless. Because they make absolutely no... There is no recognition in that.

So it isn't really about... Changing your concepts. It is about truly looking how the illusion of self appears and how it gets interpreted and related to, how that reference point comes online. And everyone had a glimpse of not having a reference point. Even if you just ask yourself a question, what is wrong with right now, if I don't think about it, and a glimpse lasts half a second, it doesn't matter. In that glimpse, there is no reference point, there is no sense of self, there is no idea that I'm the body, there is no idea, full stop. And yet, the consciousness is present. Yet, you exist, and there is no...doubt about it there is absolute certainty of existence not intellectual understanding of it absolute certainty So this is really what it boils down to.

The true investigation is the investigation which may appear as something performed by the I or the me or mind or sense of self. It might appear this way. But ultimately, when it is really, really looked through, you can see that there is no one there ever doing anything. There is a program changing the heart rate. There is a program. Changing the depth of the breath. There is a program creating tensions here and there, and there is a narrative software which interprets nicely, this is serious, this is important, this is me, I am real, I exist, I am a self, I am individual, I'm trapped, I'm isolated, I'm separated, I'm not good enough, blah, blah, blah.

So again, the moment of pause and it is all gone. And there is life just experiencing itself as this moment.all through all the channels through seeing hearing being just life and then thinking also just ripples in that ocean of consciousness And then something hits the defense system, the defense mechanism, and the whole structure of identity comes up like that. So this is again what Cole was suggesting. Just dive deeply into what that sense of me is for you. What does it mean? There is still a me. I still feel that there is a me. That this is me seeking. This is me. I don't feel that I'm the whole space.

What makes that illusion that I am just in this part of a space and not the whole field of experiencing? Isn't that a thought? Isn't that a concept? How that concept of limitation becomes reality, how it becomes, how it is being believed into reality. What happens for that idea to become so convincing thatsuddenly that reality of this moment without a thought gets completely overcast, completely veiled by that interpreting overlay. Because again, you pause a thought. Without the thought. Where is the limitation? Of what you are you're conscious you are aware yes with thought without thought there is awareness there is a consciousness where is any age in that experience of just consciousness of just awareness where is any size of that experience of just consciousness.The size comes from the concept, the age comes from the concept, the limitation comes from the concept.

Without the thought, can you possibly have shape or name or face? But you are. There is an existence. And there is a seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, even without the thought. He's not thinking, but it's pretty obvious that the seeing is happening there.Of course, the interpretation, the content of seeing, that already comes line in line with narrative. And that's already probably going to get tainted by relating. I'm seeing from this angle, I like this one and I don't like this, whatever it is. But the pure existence and pure functioning, pure... seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, breathing, sweating, sensing, temperature, whatever it is. That one is natural functioning and until it is ascribed to a person, to a me or to body-mind, it is just part of the happening.

Just like the baby throwing out arms and legs and looking and not even seeing initially. Because the software for facial recognition and for sound recognition, voice recognition isn't really sealed yet. So it is just life looking out through that one vehicle and just randomly experiencing, expressing and learning itself. But when that conditioning continues and continues and continues, of course, you know, we've seen how long it took for Facebook to learn facial recognition. This is much smarter, although right now things accelerated largely. They learned faster than babies, I think. But baby having all those softwares installed in that brilliant bio machine. Suddenly being able to socialize, to empathize, to respond in various ways.

And then again, as Bob says, if you live in a warm and loving family, you will be less insecure and less vulnerable.But if there is a lot of trauma, if there is a lot of inconsistency, then of course the programming will be erratic. There may be mental illness in it. There may be a tendency for addictions. The brain may just, the biocomputer may just not be very efficient, may be a bit broken, may be a little bit erratic. But all of that is just an appearance in consciousness. This is the consciousness. This is the life essence, the intelligence. That pure power, that omnipotence, that godliness, experiencing and expressing itself through every vehicle of expression, expresses itself through the movement of the wind in the branches of the tree, the waving of the ocean.

And through seeing through someone with mental illness or through running through someone with ambitions of being the fastest runner in the world or through thinking through poetry through music through flying as a bird and swimming as a fish that omnipotence that one essence So from the perspective of that one essence,The dream character, whether it has broken brain and full of traumas in the system, or whether it had a warm, loving, supportive family and the biocomputer is tuned really beautifully and is getting along with everyone and is helpful and serving and loving, it makes no difference. It makes no difference whether the brain is schizophrenic, whether the mind is undisciplined and crazy.

For the life to experience and express itself, it doesn't matter whether it expresses as winter or summer or the darkness or the light. The story is different with the dream character, of course. The actor which hit the head might prefer to be a hero to the villain. It might prefer to have a lot of support and friendship and money and health. And life regulates that too. If there is a way for an animal to heal when it breaks a wing, naturally it will follow the way of healing. If there is a way for a person, seeming dream character, to heal the trauma, naturally it may want to follow the way of healing.There's nothing wrong and it doesn't matter.

Of course, the dream is much more pleasant if there is no disease in the system, if there is a food on the table, and if there is a nice support group and love and everything, it is more pleasant. But to realize that this is the dream only. That's the ultimate freedom. And that's... The freedom from the psychological suffering, the loving to be, whether the body will never get off the wheelchair. Whether the body will never find a spouse. There is still a possibility of absolute sense of fulfillment, elation, sense of being present to a mystery of life and a beauty of life. It is unconditional.

It doesn't have to be after 25 years of psychotherapy or whatever the case. It could be right now.And then if some modality or the other happens, it doesn't matter. What does it matter? What are you doing in your dreams? It might make it more pleasant. There's no objections. Practicing yoga, learning to cook, driving a bicycle, those are all wonderful, wonderful things. They're all therapeutic too. But the main thing is to see that there is a possibility of viewing the life for what it is, the absolute mystery and the miracle of unfolding. And it can be seen directly without the translation through the agency of me.

Without being related to that reference point and judged according to the preferences of that reference point. Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. Everything is just as it is. Then the mind comes, I like it, I don't like it. Yes, this too is just as it is.And the mind gets dysregulated, angry, and throws the tantrum. Yes, welcome. This too. Having that relaxed, consciousness just a few percent of that attention free attention to see the tendencies of the body to see the desires the preferences and all the patterns of behaviors conditioned behaviors with that relaxed free attention There's no objection to it.

There is no objection to the wolf killing the antelope or the bully fighting against someone who is a potential threat. There is no objection to smashing someone's head if they offend you or attack your mother. There is no objection to any of it. There is just pure acknowledgement of this moment, uniqueness of it.because it is never going to be the same again. And this is the aliveness. And being able to actually recognize the seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, this radiance of the moment, and how the veil of identity comes and starts interpreting it. And now it is not pure seeing anymore. Now it is me seeing this and liking this, seeing this and not liking this, seeing that magic trick coming online, feeling that sense of contraction, personal, I don't want it.

Okay, so there is a sense of personal, there is a sense of resistance, I don't want it. There is a narrative. What else? What else? Show me, show me. Teach me. Now the one who is curious is the cognizing emptiness. Emptiness doesn't judge. The one which is judging is the mind, is another part of the narrative mind. See it all as it comes up. Be mind blown by it. It is amazing indeed.And if it shows up 23 and a half hours a day, wow, wow, what an invitation for the investigation. Wow. But to be able to even have a little bit of insight. The relaxation of certain, even a little bit of a free attention, the relaxation and the trust in life.

A little bit of just... Okay, this is how it is already.That's it. This is how it is. No need to struggle or fight against this. Too late. It's already here. So just go with it. Okay. Just show me. All right. And in that relaxation, giving up, surrender of the fight, trusting in life and letting it reveal its secrets to itself. In that, this is the paradigm shift. It's not the shift of perception, really. That free attention, completely relaxed, completely curious, interested in a sense of something being serious, sense of something being personal, important. Distressing that which is just holding space for it That one is not distressed.

That one is not identified and is not serious. It just allows unconditionally everything that arises, that's already arisen, is already here. Just be as it is. And because there is so much contraction, so much pain, and so much of a call for that healing, non-judgmental,free attention. Just look. And the problem with that whole picture is you might not going to be looking for very long because that contraction will start going away. That beautiful free attention healing the contraction will just, shit, you know, I wanted to watch that sense of self and it's all gone. But to do it in order to get rid of the ego, no, it's never going to work.

That's an agenda of an ego trying to get rid of an ego. It's all fiction. It's like Bob would quote Banky, washing away blood with blood. Still blood remains. No agenda. Just completely accepting and surrendering to this moment as it is. If there is a suffering in this moment, that's what is there. That's it. Just stop. It's already here. It's too late. It's just... It will change. The surrender, the trust, and the relaxation, which frees the attention. Now welcome the whole thing. Be curious about it. And see how long it is going to last. Might not be that long, but don't worry, it may come up again.

And if it doesn't, don't worry either. Who's there to worry?It is just how the dance of life, you know, the contraction, the expansion, the breath in, breath out. The constant impermanence, the experiencing and the expression. That cognizing emptiness, which holds space for that magnificent show, it is forever free and it is your essential nature.And you know it. Maybe there are moments when it is clouded or veiled, but they're just moments. And when you know that it's clouded or veiled, you know because you are present and aware. You know, because you are the presence awareness. Title of one of Bob's books. The titles are pretty good.

Titles usually reveal the secret. That's it. I'm not sure if I'm in the title. Yeah, he often said that. So many of these, you know, ancient texts, just read the title and stop there. Stop there, yeah. Don't go any further. Don't invite any attempt to understand or unpack or give meaning or whatever. Like beyond words, beyond mind. That's it. Yep. Where do you go from there? Nowhere. Anyone else this morning? The contemplative energy. That was beautiful, Kat. Thank you. Maybe. It's always. Thank you. As always, I don't even know what was being said. But I actually, I don't know because it's just speaking itself. I was going to invite people, you know, what Cole was suggesting, to actually dive in and describe.

What is that sense of me? What is it? Just pinpoint. How does it feel to be trapped in that sense of identity? What is it like?For anyone, any of you, what is it like? What makes you believe that there is still a me? Where is that conviction coming from? What constitutes that? How could I make myself believe that there is a me now? I can't even remember now. But there was a sense of attachment to the emotions and fears. Fear of rejection. Oh my God, that would trigger all the responses, all the concepts, all the overlap. That would be just something that... Would feel like, oh shit, of course there's a me.

You know, that's my fear. That's personal, that's serious. Is it, what is it for you? Is it identification with particular role? I remember, you know, the people who are very identified with their professions or their bodies. But sometimes there is a profound stuckness with the idea of beyond every other roles, I am a seeker of truth. This is who I am. But is it, how is it for you guys?It seems to be identification. Kath, you mentioned that it's identification and it just seems to be as ordinary as just walking in this morning through the gate and up the rise around the corner. The body seems heavy.

It's my body. It's heavy. Just as simple as that. Just in the movements.Seeming lack of energy. Just sort of ordinary things like that, that causes that identification with this body. So it is really a sense of complaint or judgment that, you know, because when you don't feel the body, when the energy is high and it's just moving through, then there is no problem. And then suddenly, ah, the body feels heavy, the energy is low. And it feels like, oh, shit, this is my body. Ah, yeah, I'm heavy. I'm low energy. This is my low level of energy. Almost as if, you know, you're driving a car and the car suddenly just gets really, really rusty and weak and it's just shaky on all the bumps and, oh, shit, you know, this is my car.

Yeah, this is I. I am this. The vehicle. It seems once there's an identification, it seems hard to disengage from that. And yet the opposite is just so...This is such a contrast to just be. Just sort of identifying with the expansion. Yes, yes. The fact that there's no boundaries, it's just endless, goes on. So restful, blissful.And yet there is an identification that that's what I am. So when you were young, I mean, you're still young, but when you were young to the point in which the energy was always high. Did you feel you were a body or you felt you were something else? I think when I was going to school, it was the first time I really noticed this difference in the expansive nature of everything and being part of it, not being separate from it.

And it usually came after a period of concentration, particularly after a school exam.There was that period of concentration and then the period of relaxation after it where you were free after the exam. Then there's some break until the next one or something. I see. Yeah. Yeah, so there was a tension caused by the identity of a student of I have to do this and the general tension versus relaxation. And also even now, you know, you walk through the gate and there is a sense of the body being heavy. But when you sit down, relaxed completely, and the weight of the body isn't really there, and you ask yourself, you know, what's wrong with right now?

Or am I a body if I don't think about it? Is that one relaxing? A little bit? Yeah, because you see, you know, even being a student, You always are, but the sense of tension arises and the sense of identity arises with it. And now you always are. And then the sense of the body being heavy arises and the sense of identity arises with it. But when it relaxes, you still exist. So you can see that. You know, the triggering of sense of identity by either the tension of exams or the pressure.of heaviness in the body, that these conditions trigger the sense of identity. It's quite clear that you couldn't be the identity because when the tension isn't there, you still exist.

To see the tension is not there. But you can actually really pinpoint what that sense is. That it is a conditioned response to the tension within the body-mind biocomputer. So now you see if there is a stress of exams or something, or there is a stress because of the movement that is difficult, with it, comes online that sense this is i this is personal i'm the body or i'm in the body that's that's something really good to know because you may actually just again bring that curiosity to the moments when when the tension is there and see that correlation, you know, is it when the sense of stress and the heaviness is amplified, is the sense of me also amplified?Yeah.

So the one that is seeing the amplified sense of me, the one that knows about all that, Is that one in any sense of stress? Or it's just a pure saying? No, it's... It seems to be one or the other. Yeah. Not both at the same time or not both merging. It's one. The coin flips. Okay. But when you actually notice there is a tension, and there is a heaviness, that which notices and reports on it. That's not tense or heavy, is it? No. It's just pure and clear. And which one are you at this moment of noticing? Are you the sense of self that comes with heaviness?

Or are you the seeing of it?Yeah, well, now I'm the same of it. Yeah, yeah. Always you are seeing of it but sometimes the program flips a little bit and overcast the fact that there is always a free seeing of it and that one is ignored that's what that's what bob was hammering down you know that You are already that. That's your essential nature, always and forever. It's never not here. But we got into a habit of ignoring it. Because the sense of self comes, the sense of stress, the sense of heaviness, the sense of survival needs. And we ignore the fact that it happens in the space that is always present, the consciousness that is always unstained.But this is really this sort of a line of investigation when you really pinpoint when is that sense of things being personal and that identity of me.

Stealing a show and making that lucidity of existence

Completely overshadowed, ignored. It's sudden translating now. Sudden focus, the selfishness suddenly now. That this is first and it is absolutely appropriate where is the cat when the cat is in a feeling of heaviness or is hungry or anything in that biological machine calls for attention it puts itself first It is an appropriate way of that omnipotence to preserve its vessel for experiencing and expressing itself. So seeing that, oh, suddenly there is a distress here. There is a call for attention. This is first. This is important. And that attention goes in there and there is a sealed sense of selfishness.

Brilliant. That is self-organizing universe distributing attention in the most appropriate way for survival. But it can still be seen in its full glory without ignoring the brilliance of it. So when things get really worked up, I had that conversation yesterday.They have a couple of calls and one of it was actually bringing up, and Tanya often highlights that one too, you know, the subtle, the litmus test in which in a difficult situations, in a heavy situations, painful, distressful situations, There is still a stillness underlying it, which is untouched. The body may be screaming, crying, fighting, throwing tantrum. But all of that is still subtly allowed in that field of knowing.And that is that subtle joy even in the turmoil.

That no matter what happens, there is a joy, there is that free attention that is untainted, unstained, untouched. So there is a possibility, even when in a survival situation like that cat, you know, when there is a danger, he'll run. There is no, you know, appreciation of the sun, warmth of the sun on the skin. No, the whole attention is required for that and nothing else. And in our case, when the whole attention is required for that and nothing else, there is still a sense of, ah, how brilliant.Wow. Wow. Seeing that there is nothing wrong, that every way the life unfolds, including the horrific situations, interpersonal or global, There is nothing wrong.

It's just the way the dream unfolds. But yeah, that's really helpful to see, you know, when this program is the strongest, most tormenting.Anyone else? I'm here with some sort of trepidation. So can I ask if I say something about me that it's not analysed or commented upon? Just, you know, I really feel that... I want to share with people what's going on for them, not have a lot of what's called non-intersecting monologues. Okay. So, okay. So, look, when I was tiny... I can't really remember this, but I'm just assuming. Like, I was shown pictures, mirrors in front of me, and told this was Carl, this was Carl's dinner, this was Carl, Carl was being naughty, Carl shouldn't do this, Carl should do that.

And always there was a reference to this body, yeah? Like that. And I, look, this conversation is really difficult because it's full up with so many paradoxes.But, so if I can just go into a story for a moment. There's a story that to have a sense of me is invaluable for survival. And some animals are supposed to have sense of me, just like human beings have. And you can understand that. I mean, we all protect ourselves and run our lives in protection to this body-mind, yeah? So anyway, so anyway, so what happened when I was before nine, I don't think I had a sense of me.

I had, I mean, I can tell you about my upbringing. I hated being told that I had to sweep the yard. I accused my parents, like, I'm not going to do it, you know. And they were using me as a slave to just like this sort of stuff, you know. And there was lots of interactions, but no sense of me. It was just, it was all happening. Yeah? No me at all. This was all happening. And then I remember at nine, I remember it was nine because I remember something happened. And it was profound.And at nine years old, I had to remember that age, I suddenly became aware that, wow, I'm a me.

I can do this, I can do that, I can do the other. And I can remember really from nine onwards, I used to tell myself over and over again, well, when I'm grown up, I don't have to put up with all this rubbish that goes on in this household. Yeah. And I used to run away. I used to sort of... It was a total drama. My life as a child was a total drama. And... And, but I was also,I was also very, what can I say, religious I suppose. So I went to Sunday school and did this and that and the other. And I had a very active mind, you know, I sort of used to think about why I was sent to Sunday school and my parents didn't go to church, they didn't do this, they didn't do that.

So why was that? Why did they send me off to Sunday school? They wanted to get rid of me on Sundays or something. They wanted to try it for themselves, you know. To all this sort of stuff. But, but, but, but... But this went on and I learnt at school about dinosaurs. I read dinosaurs. I was a real dinosaur freak when I was a kid. And I got involved with the Methodist group and they told me that I would absolutely definitely go to hell if I thought there was such a thing as dinosaurs, you know? And look, I can remember being really stressed out with all of this stuff, you know?

That was a total conflict.in my life and slowly slowly slowly I started to question Christianity yeah and and by the time suddenly when I was 21 sudden on one day it went I thought okay I'm going to have to make my peace with God, and I did. I got on my knees and I spent all day saying, hey, I'm going to have to go off and find my own way in life. And I called myself an atheist for a few months, but it never really rang true for me. And I looked at sort of all the things, Christian science, Muslim, Christianity, Buddhism, Hindu, the whole lot, you know.

And I sort of settled with Buddhism that sort of interested me, you know. And, and, and, By the time I was in my late 50s, I was still searching. I was still searching and it was getting really painful searching, you know.And then I read some Ken Wilber stuff. Then I met Bob and I suddenly felt in this room, I felt this is it. This is the way. This is what, this is... This is where I need to be. Okay. And then about three years after I was with Bob, I suddenly, one day, I'm sitting over there and I think I said before, I suddenly, it suddenly, I suddenly realised, and that's not quite the right word, but it suddenly...

That the loss of a sense of me went. Now let me explain that when I say that. You talked about identity and I think that was a really good word, but the problem is with identity is mine. Okay, and I think that if I can, I think that what actually left me was that sense of familiarity with this organism and the mind that is going on. Day in, day out, day in. It was like they still went on, much less, but they still went on, but there was no attachment.to that familiarity. So that's what suddenly happened for me. And that's all. That's all. But it actually, sort of really, it made a profound difference for me because, let me just give you an everyday example.

I was on chat GTP and I was talking about the difficulty when I went through customs, you know. What would I do here and what would I do there and what would I do there? And I suddenly sort of thought to myself, I'm bloody wasting my time. I'm not going to be thrown in jail if I do the wrong thing. And I dropped it. I just stopped there and then. I don't have to investigate those things. And so the activity that looks after a coal... And Cole's body and everything else dropped away straight away because it was not appropriate. You don't get really upset about whether you've got the right sort of bag and whether it's purely transparent or whether it's translucent when you go through customs.

Well, this is what I was always... Accustomed to doing. So it's that I'm not that familiarity. That's all.happened really. Yeah, I know, but I'd be really interested in what anyone else has got to say about that. Yeah. I probably don't have too much to say, but what Kat shared about the... I forgot what it was. Yeah, there was something to do with what you shared, you talked about and what you mentioned. And the... I only remember the picture I had when you shared it. The picture was when you shared something about this is it. That's what it was. This is it. And you drop it.

It was for me like, oh, this is the situation. What is it and then accept what is and beforehand was oh this is a situation the thinking is like i don't like it i like to have this situation and holding on to that um picture imagination on sort of fighting and that that's sort of like this is what I like to have I want I want I want and once it came to that picture of oh this is itAnd acceptance, it was a sense of feeling free and like, okay, this is the situation. Let's say my mind is more logical, like this traffic sign is red.

Or I can't interfere into the technology of big worlds and change that, can I? So this is what it is. Okay, cool, easy. And then it was a matter of the imagination of like, okay, this is the wave. I see it more as in waves. It came up with a different metaphor when I was skiing. And I was on a ski lift and it was two weeks ago or one week ago. And someone on the ski lift said, oh, it's really difficult to ski because it's very slushy snow. And I said, oh, it's not that hard. You just have to put your ski closer together and...

Go on top of the hills. And that was more like the realization of, oh yeah, okay, this is the wave. And I can be on top of it. I can change my behavior and surf on top of the wave or top of the snow, all goals, put the ski closer together and stay on top of it. And beforehand, the idea was like, I don't like the wave. It's big and I want to change it rather than serving it. So that came up. I'm like, oh, this is acceptance of what it is and not changing the waves in the ocean.or the vocals of the snow rather than actually, oh, that's what it is, I just serve it.

And if I don't like this, I jump to the next wave, the next one, and the next one. And you said I stay above it because you can't change it. So that's what came up when you shared it. That's actually, that's brilliant. I mean, thank you, both of you. I mean, you know, what Cole was saying, that sense of familiarity with the narrative, you know, this is the mind chatting and thinking this is I, and then suddenly it just drops away and it's still chatting. But it isn't I anymore. It's just that familiarity of me being the mind. No, now it's just a function. And what you say, I love it too, is the sense of objecting to the reality, trying to control it.

I prefer this. So the sense of agency comes with that being the control freak. I don't like it. This way and then suddenly when that sense of of agency and control relaxes yeah but it's already here it's too late now it's just right away then that that persistent sense of self and sense of being the doer and manipulator of the reality just drops and then life keeps moving smoothly you know with the wave the river goes with the with the way it goes rather than against it so thesense of self comes with those those two examples comes with either sense of just trying to manipulate it fix it control it just you know just wrestle with life or the the sense of just okay this what i hear all the time the idea that because it is my voice and it speaks in my head that it is me, it doesn't have to be interpreted in this way.

Suddenly it is still there, but it isn't me, it isn't mine, it's just a blah blah, yeah, functioning. And yeah, beautiful. Thank you. And I have a couple of comments here online. Good morning from Tasmania. Gilbert says, endless stories about me, me, me. Oh, yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, that is endless stories about me. That is also, and thank you, Gilbert, another way of actually seeing that. That sense of identity, always being preoccupied with me, what's important for me, what's happening for me, who I like, who I don't like, that sense, it is. The sense of importance and you because of course there will be moments when instinctually the animal puts the me first but me meaning that the whole system the body mind to not starve or to not get eaten or killed but humans have the tendency to justAnd this is as Bob was saying, instead of having that unfixated attention, five senses wide open and being fully present with this moment, with the sounds in the background, with the sights on the peripheral, with the tasting, touching, smelling, just present with what is happening right now.

The humans have the tendency to be preoccupied with that narrative, with that familiarity of the storyteller, the story about me, about my past, about my future, about my friendships, about my problems. 80, 90% of attention, Bob would estimate, of course, it's hard to estimate, would go to that thinking and fueling the attention, fueling that fire of the personal story. And missing out on what may be happening subtly in the channel of hearing or channel of seeing missing out on life just not really keeping up with life like a bucket of water on the bank of a river the bucket is stationary still like the identity it is sealed I am a woman, I am a human being, I am an Enneagram type or star sign or this or that, whatever it is, is the bucket of water on the bank of the river while the river is alive and it's flowing smoothly, merrily, sometimes through the sandy banks.sometimes through the waterfalls.

But it is alive. The water in the bucket is dead. The identity is dead. The story of me is dead. Even though the mind may improvise brand new stories every time, ask any question about the past, it may improvise if it doesn't have an answer, it is still relating to something constructed only in concepts and not to what is happening in the moment, in that ever fresh presence, the newness of this moment.How else? How else is that sense of things being personal coming online? What else? What does it mean? For you to be trapped in the me. Yes, thinking about when, because the only time you, or like it becomes apparent that you're trapped in the me is when you're, obviously when you're not trapped in it.

So like the moment you're like, oh, I was trapped in the me is when you're in the... That space of seeing and you're like and it becomes very apparent that that's not you and then it almost the only way it seems to be such a cliche of a description but it appears it's like oh you it was a you were dreaming almost it's like you're just completely identified with this stream of thought and the me and like what's happening in the future they're just like oh like there's thought going along and it is in It is very much like you've just woken up and it's like, oh, it's like I forgot that that's not me again.

Though it seems to be... It's like it seems to be almost you get trapped in it.by believing the thoughts. Like, it's like, even just simple examples when I'm sitting down to meditate and like, maybe 15, 20 minutes in, getting a bit restless, and there's a thought of like, I'm going to have to stop, I can't keep going. And it's like urging me to get up and leave, and then just like, oh, that's just a thought. And I'm like, is that true? Like, was this thought true? And you look at it and it's like just very clearly a thought and it has no real reality. And then it's like the body relaxes and, you know, there's stillness.

And yeah, then, you know, inevitably at some point you believe another thought. And that is... And then it's like, wait, is that true? It's just a hilarious kind of pattern of investigation where... Yeah, you believe these thoughts and in doing that become identified with it and kind of... But in the moment of being identified, it's not like you're lost or anything. It's just that's what you are. You're those thoughts in that moment. And that's obvious when you... When you see it, when you kind of break from that, and it's like, oh, there was this thought that I've kind of mistaken for myself in the moment, but it's like, you didn't go anywhere.

It's not, I was lost or anything like that. It's just, it's just the, almost like the, amount of ideaswas so much in those thoughts that there was no apparent space for being aware, but it's no real difference ultimately, which is obvious in the moment of seeing. And then, you know, you start believing the thought of like, oh, I'm always lost in my thoughts. And that's just another one that you're believing. And you wake up from that and it's just the constant process of,

seeing the unreality of these thoughts that you mistake to be true and mistake for yourself. And how entertaining, huh? Yeah, it really is.

It's a really, really interesting examining the beliefs that lead to this identification. Because they're just so kind of, they're almost, they can be like so subtle that you take for granted that they're to be true. And it's only when you actually look at it, it's like, what is this? And it's like, oh, that's not actually true. It's just another thought. But it's a thought that's just been there for so long that you forget that it's a thought. And you just think that that is reality.Yeah, that's my experience of being trapped in the me. That's, yeah, beautiful. Do you want to? I just have a question.

It sounds very nice to be able to Relax, to live a life like that, to be not identified with anything. Is it too much to ask for that to be a constant? Constant, yeah. Look at the animals. Can they afford being constantly relaxed? Can they afford not hunt for food? Not run away from predators because nature you know it's like it's the holographic universe you look at nature and it will answer the question sometimes attention is required for self-preservation and that's not relaxed that attention is totally totally in when it needs to be but the space experiencing itself as that attention being being trapped in the self-preservation that space is always free and if you realize that you are the space and not the attention Even when the attention is trapped, even when some of the attention is dreaming,You are the space in which that ocean of consciousness suddenly became a stream of the dream.

The dreaming is happening within that attention, which is that free, free consciousness that you are. So it isn't really asking. Is it possible to have a life without dreaming? It is to realize that you are the life prior to dreaming, expressing us dreaming. And dreaming is not a problem. That's the freedom, the point in which there is nothing wrong anymore. Even when the body gets sick, even when the body is aging, even when the attention gets to a dream, even when the body is defending itself and is yelling and screaming or crying, there is nothing wrong. Because the consciousness, that whole ocean of consciousness, isn't touched on a very, very basic level of that pure stillness that you are.

It's in touch. The surface may be really rough. There may be a storm going on there. Yeah, that's the problem. Theoretically, we know we are that, but in reality, we have to do all this. No. Things that we don't like and worry.You know that. It's the other way around. No, it's not that theoretically we are that and practically we have to deal with all that stuff. No, practically we are that. And theoretically there is stuff coming out in it and is being dealt with. We're not doing any of it. It's the automatic functioning dealing with storms. If there is a hunger, you don't have to deal with installing hunger in your stomach.

It will show up by itself. You don't have to deal with having a thought, what am I going to cook? It shows up by itself. You don't have to deal with going in the kitchen and cooking. It comes by itself. So the ocean is our, the whole presence, the awareness, the consciousness, stillness, always the same. This is practically what we are. And then waves and ripples are going and showing and it is alive, it's moving, it's dancing. But this is all happening of its own. There is no need to deal with any of it. If the dealing is required, the thought will pop up and it will be discovered.

The action will pop up. No need to do anything at all. Just see how it addresses itself, how the next breath is drawn naturally. Don't have to do it. Don't have to worry about it. I guess Bob Talk used to talk about ininvestigation and I never realized we already know who we are and even as a kid I was totally convinced there was something wrong with me totally convinced from the upbringing you can say that and I always used to ask God why was I born this way And why did I be born into this family? And every time I asked those questions, there was just the silence of the present of the now.

And until you let go of an outcome, wishing you luck, you know, I laugh at my whole childhood now, but... We already sort of know, but we don't know until you really start investigating and, you know, coming to listen to Bob, that I never thought I knew who I was, but all along I did until you start to really let go of the whole concept of the story. We already know. Who we are and I just didn't realize forever in the day I was always asking myself could ask myself 100 times a day why was I born this way but I wasn't I just it was just the thought and once you let go of the thought and the story and you know become aware it just automatically drops goes away more and more.

The silence, because Bob always talks about the start silence in the present and stillness of the now. But we already did know that. But until you investigate, you don't know that sort of thing.Just to add to what's been said, you know, all of this, everything, the birds singing, the sky, all the stuff in the newspapers, the hunger that rises, everything is just happening. Right? And then superimposed on all of this is a feeling of me by something that wants to control it all. Okay? And when that sense of me stops, It's just relief because it all just goes on the way it's going to go on.

So that's the way around, I think. That's what changes. It's that it swaps around. Yeah.Thank you. This is what Bob would say, you know, give credit where credit is due. You know, you're not the doer. Whatever is happening is just life throwing it out. And it's like heartbeats, spontaneous thoughts, spontaneous reactions, spontaneous according to the conditioning. But you're not doing it. And the program which says, no, this is I. I am doing this. This is me. I'm responsible for it. I have this power of manipulating reality. I'm greater than God. I'm greater than life. That's the delusion of grandeur. That's not the case. And we have another comment here from Miranda.

She says, the impediment for me is the issue of matter. The chair feels like matter. When I bump against it, against something, it hurts. Yeah, that's true. That's true. And that's kind of wonderful, isn't it? I mean, on one level, the way this beautiful play, this beautiful dream came into existence where the life essence or a pure ocean of consciousness dreams itself, the body that has limitations, that has some shape, so it can experience the whole world. Through that vehicle of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, through that sense of separation, that I am separate from the chair,And I am part of the group in which there is a space and I arise in space and I have personal story and all that beautiful dream.

This is not an impediment. This is the adornment. Bob would call it an adornment of space. But in current experiencing, when I bump myself and let me do it so it is now, I just hit my toe very lightly. I'm sure you would love to do it for me. Thank you very much. So when the bumping happens, what really happens is that in that field of consciousness, there is a rising sensation. And now the ripple of that sensation is still there, even though the bumping the toe happened a few seconds ago, there is still a sensation happening. And the interpretation of the mind is there that this is happening in the toe.

So the mental image of the toe, the mental image of the floor or the chair that is separate from the toe, the whole interpretation of the sensation comes up with the story of separation, the story of reference point, the toe, and the story of me, this is my. And the story it shouldn't be there so there is a lot of narrative going on interpreting the moment of sensation arising in that ocean of consciousnessbeing completely inseparable from the ocean of consciousness. Sensation knows nothing about the toe, about the chair, about me, resistance, nothing. It's just pure sensation that is interpreted by the brain as something. That is happening in this location for this reason that there is a separate chair and this see all that all that overlay of the mind beautiful in itself brilliant dreaming machine clouds the fact that the pure sensation in itself, the pure matter in itself, isn't an impediment really.

It's just the way that one essence experiences and expresses itself. The impediment is with the story of what it means. What it means that when I hit my toe or when I hit the chair, Now with the narrative comes I and a chair. They both, they're not even both. There is just one scene arising in consciousness, completely one, completely inseparable. The body and the chair are just this moment, the content of the dreaming, inseparable from the dreaming space. Now the mind comes and divides it. This is I, this is not I. The toe is mine, the chair is not mine. This is part of who I am, this is not.brilliant this is another way of looking at how the magic trick of separation comes into existence and what lucky was saying about dreaming you know how that stream of consciousness suddenly dreams of what is not happening right now thinking about yesterday planning the next trip or whatever it is just seeing it sometimes taking 100% of attention.

So there's not even an insight that, oh, I'm dreaming. And it doesn't have to be because who would have an insight? You don't need the, you know, that constant observer, guardian, watching, monitoring, controlling and applying and knowing what's going on. Who would that be? The witness. It's not required. It's not necessary. If you're aware of awareness, well, then it's a thought. Yes. Yes. There you are in the mind, so to speak. That's just when it's completely relaxed. Yes. No sense of having to be aware, remain aware. It's just as it's coming up and nothing else. Nothing else. Just this, nothing else. And that's what Lucky also said, and it was beautiful.

It's always good to just bring it up again. There is nothing wrong. With the stream of consciousness diving intoone dream or another who is there to object to it now the stream consciousness experience itself as that emotion as that story as that mental images what is wrong with that if there is no objection if there is no separate self say oh it shouldn't be there Oh, this is wrong. There's no one who has a problem with any of it. There is a stick next to you. Paul? Paul. Oh, okay. Thanks. The question about when you bump up with something and it hurts. You know, just look at your cat.

I mean, you might tread on its toe or something and it squeals. Okay? You didn't mean to do it. It squeals. The cat hasn't got a sense of me. I don't know that, but, you know, that's what I say. When I look at the cat, I can think, yep, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, Dino, say the last word. The last word. No, no, no. I've gone the last word. Just say the last word. Well, all right. Last night I had, well, once upon a time I had a cup of tea. And last night in my dream, I dreamt of the memory of having a cup of tea.

Then I dreamt of, in the dream, that I...I was having a cup of tea as a dream character. So in the dream I dreamt I was having a tea. In the dream I remembered having a cup of tea. And then I woke up, got out of the bed and had a cup of tea. The point is that this is all the dream. All of it. Not one part is more real than the other. Not one part is more true than the other. None of them and all of them. And what is all of them and none of them? And everything is that. And, you know, like we talked about the investigation today, and like the investigator, the act of investigating and that which is being investigated is that it's all the same thing.

It's all the dreams, all the different aspects and facets of that one essence. And that is... Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, everyone.