This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
Go, and I'll just do a test in the background. Yes, hello everybody, good morning, Sunday session. We're going to go around the group. I'm just testing. No, this is not my area of expertise. Oh, wrong way even. There we go. Ah, oh, we're not starting there. We're going to start here. Who are you? What do they call you? Name and formal name. Just testing the mic in the background.Dean's disappeared again. And we haven't got Kat online yet. She might do a few minutes. And this morning we have a special guest speaker. Dean's Jane. Jane. That's what they call me. How's that? Good. Good? Very good.
All good. I think we're going to have a special message from Kat first, aren't we, Dean? Sure. Yeah, let's do that. Okay. It's an honour to be in the chair today.Hi everyone, this is the plan B option. I'm in Poland having a vacation. I'm traveling tomorrow morning to see my family. I'm with my beautiful lovely friends. Some of you may know Jenny from our Zoom calls and Ania also from our Zoom calls. We are in a fabulous spot. And because if I wake up at 2.30 in the morning, they will have to wake up too because we are living in a small apartment. So it is a little bit awkward.
I will still try to quietly log in and stay with you guys. But if I don't, just please forgive me. Please understand. I know that you are with Jane today and you are with Tanya and Ben. And you are with each other and all of you know that you are all of you are purely and clearly 100% certain of your existence you don't need anyone to tell you that you can't stop being it you can't stop understanding it so there really is you know as much as i will be with you in my heart if i don't manage to walk in I'll be in another dream and it might be a dream in which myI'm so closed and my body is not moving.
And the dream content will be different. It might not be the room in which you are all sitting. You know the truth. You share it. You keep the light on. Yes, I love you all. And you have Bob's presence there, which is space-like. We are all that space, having millions of the masks and costumes and faces. And it's the life itself looking through every pair of eyes. And in that, there is no separation. It is just that one life. Let it see. Let it be. Enjoy the moment because it will never be the same again. And I'll still try, but forgive me if I will just have a mercy on those two gorgeous beings behind me who also have vacation.
And in the small space that to Anya I can share, yes, just cut us some slack. I love you all and see you in a couple of weeks.Thank you, Kath. That was lovely. So, yeah, I had dinner with Cole the other night and he said, oh, have you thought about what you're going to say? And I said, no, I prefer to just see what comes up. So what's coming up is I can't tell you anything. I can't teach you anything. All I can do is see what comes up in language, in the word, which of course we know is only a label. And in 1988, Bob gave me a copy of I Am That.
I'd met Bob through a 12-step program. And I was totally, totally in the self-centre or the image I had about myself. And I was often in conflict not only with myself but with others, but I was trying to live... A better life if you like, not realising I was life itself at that time. And when he gave me that copy of I Am That, he said perhaps read it and then read it again and then read it again. There's a lot of Indian terminology in there, you know, it'll probably do your head in when you first read it. But it was interesting.felt that when I read it, it was the truth.
He'd said to me that he'd gone to India and sat with Nisargadatta and he was taken beyond the need for further help. And I totally resonated with that after having read those, read I Am That a few times. And of course, regularly talking to Bob, who would diffuse any addiction I had to self and kept pointing and pointing and pointing me back to the truth of my own being. You know, in his meetings would draw from lots of different people. You know, primarily, obviously, his main focus was what Nisargadatta taught him. But what I loved the most about Bob was he drew from a lot of other teachers as well.
And he also helped a lot of us who were coming in those early days who were, you know, often many of us recovering from addiction issues, totally, totally in the head. He really helped us, kept pointing us back to the heart and kept saying in all the meetings that we are life itself, or if you like his favourite term, pure.intelligence energy. I love that particular term because that particular term, energy or light, that sort of lends me to think of enlightenment. We are light itself or life itself. Or love itself or truth. And these are all labels because from very young, when we were little kids, we got taught stories.
We got taught many stories. The biggest story that we were taught was the story of our own label, our own reference point. That reference point caused a lot of trouble here over the years. But it was so wonderful after having done lots of meditation through another teacher and Always having a God consciousness, if you like, ever since I was very young. Always had an awareness, if you like, of God. Brought up in a Catholic church school. A father who was a recovered alcoholic who spoke of a power greater than himself. A lot. A mother who was a poet, who loved Shakespeare, whoyou know, really understood truth at a deep level, but had her own issues with surface stuff like I did as well.
I always had a consciousness, if you like, that was, if you like, God conscious. So having recovered from substance abuse, I was looking for a way, if you like, I was looking for a concept of God that worked for me. And then I came to Bob's meetings and Bob said, well, you know, God is only a word. It's a label. It's a way of communicating with each other about a particular path you're on. You know, a lot of the people I was speaking to, they were seeking enlightenment. And I guess I was a seeker too until I... Came to the understanding that the only thing I know for sure is that I am.
Everything else is the once upon a time. There was a Jane. She was this, she was that. Other people also had labels. We need in communicating in the world. But deep down, there was that great reality that knowingness, the pre-sense,before all the words, all the labels. That was what I wanted to spend more time focusing on. And of course, Bob told me time is also a concept. But, you know, I wanted to spend more time there rather than in the story. And I started to look at how the mind worked. I could see after Bob suggesting that, you know, just have a look how it works.
You know, it can only work in the pairs of opposites. Pleasure, pain, happy, sad, you, me, yesterday, tomorrow. And that's fine. That's just the nature of the mind. But when there is a fixed idea about any person, place or thing, you're in the image or you're in the persona or you're in the past because those images can only live in the memory or be projected into the alleged future, but everything's happening right now. And so I started to really watch how the mind worked. I started to really see that when I really looked closely, that I was not the image I had about myself, that I wasn't a label, that I wasn't...
You know, a story and, you know, that all the conflict I had was when I was fixating, when I was having a preference toa person, place or thing. And that's when the conflict arose. And so that wasn't easy because all my life or during this journey, if you like, because I know now that I'm life itself, you know, I'd always fixated on firstly this alleged me and then everybody else that came into my periphery. And that was okay as long as I didn't have a fixed idea about them. And so a lot of my time or alleged time was spent diffusing conflicts and it was exhausting, you know, conflicts not only with others but within myself.
But knowing, having had this pointed out to me, that eventually that truth would eat away the lie, the lie being the story. Yeah, so image, the word persona, of course, is image. And I'm not an image, just like I'm not that image in that mirror. You know, I'm so much more than that. I'm life itself. I'm before the senses. I'm what breathes me at night. Yes, and I was referring earlier to with Anthony here, who was tryingtalking about Krishnamurti, we all have pointers that resonate. Or Bob's favourite pointer, or my favourite pointer of Bob's is, what's wrong with right now if you don't think about it?
And that's so powerful. It is so powerful. It's just an amazing way of diffusing anything that's going on. And just bringing you back to right here, right now, where your hands are. That's a brilliant point, Drew Bobs. The other one for me from Krishnamurti is, you know, all conflict arises between me and the other. Well, have a look at where is that me? Really have a look, see if you can find it. I've never found it. And yet I lived according to it for so long, you know, and it was all a phantom, you know. And so what I... Learned was usually when I'm in conflict with something or somebody, it's that I'm in the past.
I've got a past image about something that happened or a story about something that happened and I've fixated on that and I can't let it go. And then or I'm anticipating and imagining something that's allegedly going to happen in the future and that creates anxiety and fear.And so one day I was talking to Bob about this and he just said, well, if you're in the past, you're wrong. If you're in the future, you're wrong. You just got to be with what is, not with what, you know, what as if, the as if world, you got to be with the as is world. And so, yeah, and I've seen a lot of teachers over the years and I've heard a lot of people speak along non-dual lines.
Non-duality, of course, is not two, one without a second. I've heard many teachers, but I always come back to Bob. And Krishnamurti for some reason, but they're who resonate mostly with me. And, you know, I've been taken beyond the need for further help and I really needed a lot of help, I can assure you. And I was just very lucky to have Bob in my life for 40 years because I was a hard nut to crack. And so whenever I'd be in my head, I'd ring him and talk to him and he would just diffuse anything, you know, just bang straight to. You know, well, who's it happening to?
You know, it's got to be a me.Yeah, so, yeah, I just am eternally grateful. I spend a lot of time talking to other people about this. When questions arise, it's amazing what comes out, you know, and so I'm hoping, because I don't seem to be able to talk for half an hour, that some of you will engage and ask questions and sort of spur me on by speaking up as well about your experience with non-dual. Teachings or your path or whatever so that we can have a you know lovely discussion about who we're not because all you can really learn is who you're not because it's just surface stuff and that as I said that pre-sense that that presence before the words is always there you know, and that'll hold us up, that'll, you know, keep us centred.
And, yeah, that's about all I've got. So who, any questions, anybody? Anything to add? Anyone want to say anything? I'll just ask who or what?get self-realized. Who or what recognizes That's how you say it. That'll do. The only thing you can do is to cognise or know that presence that you are, you know, and there is no one to be self-realised. It's just a story relating to a me, which is an image. Which can only live in the past or be projected into the future. So... Even that projected into the future is based on an image of a past. Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right, yeah.
So you already are. You already are light. Your energy, your pure light itself. So there's no one to get anything. As I said, I can't teach you anything. I can't tell you anything. All I can do is remind you who you are, which is you exist, your life itself. really, or I can remind you who you're not by helping you see that there's no one to be enlightened. Yeah, it's just, yeah, the truth of your own being, if you like, that pre-sense before hearing, tasting, touching, smelling.before any dialogue about yourself or about the future or the past. You are just prior to that. And that's all there ever has been and that's all there ever will be.
But you might notice a dissipation of sort of feeling ill at ease after a while. You might notice a dissipation of conflict within yourself and less conflict with others. I can only speak from what happened here. And you might notice that life becomes more effortless and that, you know, anything that comes up is quickly taken care of. Whatever it is. I noticed, I experienced that, but I always expect the big bang. Well, good luck, Christian. That's all I can say. Yeah, I'll try and sort of answer that. You know, We get into terrible troubles with this subject because this brain evolved to deal with things out there, okay?
And it even points to this and it says me. And what the technical term for this is, is a pseudo-subject. It's not really the subject. The subject is prior to thought. Okay, you can.You can't actually, as soon as you start to think about anything, you objectify it. Okay? So this is the problem when we talk about this. So the word enlightenment is something that people talk about. Okay? And there's some lovely things about that. You know, the thing, what is it? The before enlightenment, chocolate, curry, water. After enlightenment, chocolate, curry, water. Okay? They're paradoxes. Okay? They're paradoxes. If I ask you if you're happy, as soon as you think, am I happy, the mind comes in.
And happiness has got nothing to do with the mind. See, happiness is to do with who we really are. Just like love. Love is who we really are. They're not things that you can... Point to the only things that we are aware of. And so when we're talking about this, it's really important to remember this problem about subject and object. And what came up for me was that Sat Chit Ananda, being, the truth of your own being, knowing, knowing that you are, and loving.to be and Nama Rutna of course name and form so being knowing loving to be Sat Chit Ananda Nama Rutna all these Indian terms I learned a long time ago reading I am that but now I sort of know them if you like you know Could you say more about name and form?
Name and form, well, that's what we've been in bondage to all our lives, that feeling of separation. Yeah, you know, that feeling, feeling dis-ease within ourselves, thinking we have to attain something or thinking we're a bad person or a... Or feeling resentment, self-pity, that's all manifestations of self. And as Bob told me a long time ago, there isn't one. There isn't one. So full stop, really. Full stop. Full stop. And you're saying loving to be, loving to be, being in love with what's happening right now. Unconditional love. Yeah, well, you can't. For what's happening exactly. As now, not a daydream based on a dead past as what is going to happen in the future or regret for what happened in the past, just as it is right now.
That's unconditional love. That's it.That's what we are. Total acceptance of what's coming up and giving it space, allowing it to be. Start from you are that perfection. Start from you are full. Not starting from lack or something to gain, something to improve, something to fix. Starting from I am that. It's all happening in my consciousness. There's nothing else. What is there to change, improve, fix? Nowhere to go. Nowhere to get. That's it. You are that stillness, silent, that sits, for want of a better word, in the background, but not really the background, in everything, but the mind, you know, the only way to sort of try and you never can pinpoint it.
With the mind because you just know it. It's a knowing. It's a knowing. You're never away from it. Just pretending that you are. Because it's part of the entertainment. Anthony.So my question is around, is there any practice that you guys have put into play as you're going through life where you can return to the awareness? Because... I mean, like it was Ram Dass who had said, well, you think you're so enlightened, go and spend two weeks with your family. Exactly. So there are things that happen where you can, you know, It's like you have an experience totally connected in the world, and then you have like a reflective, you have an insight into the playings of how everything unfolded and deeper in, rather than being a participant.
So I'm a question. Yeah. It's come and it's gone. Yes. But that still, that can you not be is always there. It's never changed. And to answer your question, is there something you can do? Yeah. You can do the investigation. It's an opportunity always to take a look. Can you find? The self-centre, the reference point, the boundary when you look, brings you back, draws your attention, which is focused like a magnifying glass of the sun on that thought or that doubt, pulls it away and creates a bit of distance, if you like, when you take a look. Naturally dissipates. Well, it's like the mirage. It's like the mirage in the desert, isn't it?
When you get closer to the alleged, you know, scene, if you like, it dissipates. So when you shine the light of awareness on patterns, and usually families,are a really great way to ignite all those patterns that create conflict and disease. So, yeah, a lot of people have said over the years there isn't any practice. You just have to know who you are. Well, I disagree. I think exactly what Tanya said. When you have a look and see who's it happening to, it has to be a me if we're in disease. So you have a look for that me. Where is that me? That me can only be in the memory or it can be projected from the memory into the future, but it's all happening right here, right now.
So just seeing that pattern is how it dissipates. It's not really you doing anything, it's just shining the light of that awareness that you are, that pre-sense that you are, onto that pattern and go, oh, there it is. You know, and I used to say, but you know, what can I do? What can I do? Who'd want to do anything, Bob would say, you know. But I did hear a really good teacher, Gangaji, one time, and I listened to a lot of words that were being said that day, and she said, the truth will eat away the lie, and the lie is the reference point, the me, or the story of us.me and the other or your family or whatever's happening, when you see that the pattern is creating conflict, then you just go, oh, there it is.
You can't really do anything, you know, because there's no answers in the mind. All you can do is see it. And then it dissipates because you're shining that light that you actually are onto that pattern. It doesn't imply necessarily that the physical circumstances will change. Immediately but the the the words we use like worry anxiety fear psychological suffering because will dissipate because you've seen through it you've seen through it and that's why bob says you know watch the mind see how it works it's so mechanical So repetitive. Very conscious. The same protective thoughts coming up all the time, you know. Just it's a loving to be.
It's part of the mechanism of the vehicle to do that. There's nothing wrong with it, but you see through it. It loses its potency. Yeah, and that may, you know. It desires harmony, you know, it rejects fear. You know, it's sort of like nobody wants to be in conflict. Nobody, you know, skips down the road going, I'm going to have a big fight with someone.You know, but it is interesting to watch the mind, how it's desire and fear, pleasure and pain, all related to a me which is time bound, you know, and yet all of it is. You know, dissipated when we just come back to what is, you know, and see that it's an old pattern.
And once that's seen, it's like a, ah, you know, it's like coming back to the place you never left, as Paul Hederman would say. Not that you ever left it, but, you know, it appears that you've left it sometimes. Just briefly, when we're with relatives, when we're with family, what happens is that our buttons get pressed, okay? And the fact that our buttons get pressed is the me. It's the me that... Is setting up something it likes against something it doesn't like, you know? And we, and we, and we, and, and, in fact, if you sit down there, understand what's happening, just look at it, be with that feeling, It dissipates after a while.You know, it's not so severe each time it happens.
Yeah. So it's sort of a bit psychological in a way. I mean, sure, that happens. Anyway. That's such a good point. It came up last week. What does one do when this sensation maybe comes from the body and it's an ache in the heart or whatever, and immediately a thought will come, we'll don't go there, it's going to hurt, avoid. Save for later, put it off, there's resistance, whatever. What if you just ignore that for a minute and just pretended you're fearless, have courage and just go into it. Let it just fully express. No resistance. No resistance. And as you see, you know, even with physical pain, you find yourself, you know, watching it occur.
And that actually when you really go deep into that seeming suffering of that agony of the ache, It's actually a lot like joy. There's pleasure there. It's enjoyable. In a weird kind of way, it sounds weird to say, but truly it's a recognition that it's an experiencing and it's to be loved. And, oh.And then you hit this spot and you go, oh, God, that's actually, wow. And then it's gone. And you almost want it back. Yeah, well. But it's true. You think, but no, no, life, it totally, what do you think that you're not enjoying the suffering? Truly. At some level. Really. I was hoping you'd say something.
Yeah. You think you're not holding on to it somehow? Either in resisting or pulling in. So, yeah, I guess the biggest thing is the very start, like the assumption that there's a me in the world. And, like, I am the body. Yeah. I am the body. I am the body illusion. Is total fiction. So if we come into this room and sit into a non-duality meeting, I am this body, I'm a dean, I'm going to sit here and I'm going to get something, you're finished. You've just reinforced the same thing that we're looking at. It's actually even deeper than that. It's because there's actually nothing going on.
At all. Like there's really nothing, there's a show of energy.appearing as this one looking, this one seeking, this one who's contracted and who's going to now liberate himself or herself from this contraction by learning, by getting a glimpse or hearing a pointer and the pointer lands and then all of a sudden, ah, yes, now I... Everything is like a practice in a way, but there's no one doing it. So if practice seems to happen, practice will happen. I suggest everyone get on the yoga swing and spend five minutes hanging upside down every day. I'll leave that one to you. Not at all. Not one bit.
But if there's effort required, then effort will appear as such. But that's just the nothingness appearing as a body seemingly efforting. But really, there's nothing actually going on at the same time. The whole illusion is an amazing thing because in that illusion there's an appearance of absolute humanness, absolute emotions, absolute feelings of bubblings and fixings and improvings and becomings and all these kind of stuff, all different aspects of the same one essence, different facets of energy. Bubbling up and appearing in that kind of way. I think Cole was going to say something. Not to be denied. No. Not to deny that a lot of people have this mistakenimpression I'm sitting in the background untouched.
Yes, you are fundamentally, but there's this human experience thing. What's happening is part of the package. You can't get out of the dream. That's why I love it as it's appearing. All of the humanness and then wow what a show i do think it helps uh i do think it helps to have uh other people who are into a similar uh understanding um because i i just can't imagine what i would have done without bob if i just read the book and hadn't come to a group and hadn't spoken to him every time i was stuck i think it definitely helps uh having other people who are on the same wavelength.
And I've been so lucky to know Cole since the 90s. You know, I had the joy of knowing Bob for many years and some of you that I've known recently over the last few years. You know, sometimes we can't see our own stuckness, if you like. So it's good to have other people around. That's why satsang is so good, being in the company of truth. It's an important part of the journey, I think. Yeah, I was just going to say the big illusion isis that there is a me there, you know? And everything that happens, like if there's a pain, if there's a car going past and a noise, if the sun goes up and goes down, we...
There's a connection of a me and a me that says, I saw that, I did this, I did this, but if you take that me out, it still all goes on. Yeah, yeah. Everything goes on. It's just happening as it is. And really, there's not much you can say about it. I mean, you know, the play of... What does it mean? It doesn't mean anything. And we have been indoctrinated by the process of growing up. We've been indoctrinated with this story and it puts everything into place. Okay, and everything confirms this is me. And I did this, I went to university, I did this, I did that, I tripped over, but all of those things happen anyway.
And that's the way that, that's the way that, that's just another story. That's another story explaining what happens.But it's just a story. Yeah. The truth is... Nothing to say. Nothing to say. Nothing to say. Have you got any comments? Yes, yes. Maybe I might read them. Do you want to read them? No, you can do it. Okay, I'll just read a couple of the comments at the moment. Thanks, Cole. Thanks, Jane. Ken says, thank you, Jane. We who know Bob from many years ago have a simple message from Bob. That was Ken. And Catherine says, thank you, Jane, so very much for your insights. Much love to all.
And Kat in Poland. Kisses, Catherine James in South Australia. Gilbert says, what is real is immediate. Whatever depends upon time is illusion. Simple. The me of memory is a total fiction. No one can get into trouble or get in the good books. It's all bollocks. The silence of being is wordless. Just be quiet and know that you are. Deborah says hello and all and thanks Jane. And Gilbert continues with some more comments. Nothing to do with acceptance or rejection. What is as it is. The me of memory cannot return to awareness. It is total fiction. No practice, no method. Reality does not practice tomorrow before it happens.
After all, is said.And done. Tomorrow never happens. And that's it for the comments for the moment. That's great. Good comments. What about you, Ross? Got anything to say today? There is no separate existence. That's a simple statement. There's other simple statements like, All is dukkha, anicca and anatta. Buddhist teaching. Dukkha is unsatisfactoriness. Anicca is impermanence. Nothing lasts. Everything comes to pass. Anatta, anatta, there is no self.And all of those concepts, which over the seemingly passing of time, they suddenly, they're like lights, they turn on and there's some understanding. It takes a long while, it seems, to understand or actually know something. At first you have to stand under it.
That's the understanding. Just surrender any ideas about knowing it. And then eventually it becomes clear or there's some light.Yeah, so even though you might hear something like there's no separate existence, but to really... Know that is something else. One of my earlier journeyman in this journey said, the truth is simple. He spoke with a heavy Egyptian accent. The truth is simple. Even a baby can understand it. Babies understand it best. Yeah, they understand it best because they haven't been told who they're not. Yeah. We still have a baby. Yeah. But, like, the recognition is immediate. It's spontaneous at the same time. So it looks like it's something that's got to be understood or learnt, but it's not.
It's absolutely. Absolutely immediate and undeniable too for anyone who's anything. It's just this. It's just this. Very, very simple at the same time. I think Kat was saying the other day that all of these words can be used to describethe virtually indescribable because it's no thing. There was a certain Cambodian monk who pointed out to one of his fellow monks that The greatest wonder in the world is the Buddha nature. And that Buddha nature is the intelligence energy. That everyone knows in one way or another.Cognizing emptiness was the thing that struck me when I first came to Bob's meetings. Cognizing emptiness. Emptiness infused with intelligence.
Yeah. And it's the emptiness that's cognizing. What a concept. The world is turned upside down. Can you talk more about it? Excellent question. Yeah, I still am very confused or... I just keep wondering exactly what is this cognizing emptiness. Is it something that is practiced? You know what it is? It's a concept. It is a concept. It's a label for that which can't be labeled. The so-called understanding is knowing is not in... This non-entity that we call the mind, it's what happens immediately when I ask you the question, can you not be? You know that you are, don't you? That's it. And Bob is, you know, he said he likes to call it intelligence energy and, you know, he's in the Beyond Words, Beyond Mind book.
He explains why that is because, you know, there is a knowing which is, and it is, there's a knowing.You know, like cats, there's the temperature of the room without having to mentally engage some action from the brain. It's just an awareness. You know that there is a present, that there's a point of consciousness. It's just a knowing. So he talks about there's a knowing that's an intelligence that implies that there's an activity. Activity implies energy. And then he goes into this is why he refers to it as intelligence energy. But they're just words. They're just words. So while you're doing that, being aware you're also cognizing the emptiness.
It's all happening in your consciousness. There's nothing that happens that you're not aware of, literally. There's a very simple way to get an insight into this. But it's really the headless way. Yeah, dogma siding. Yeah, so if you just put your hands up beside you, within your view, this one single view we have, And then you start to move them back. What happens? You have to do this. This is a... Right? Yeah. Move them back. What happens?They disappear. They disappear. Where do they disappear? They just disappear into emptiness. Yeah. As do we. As do we. And another thing that was part of it, he asked us to look into a mirror with a piece of paper like this.
And when you're looking in a mirror, he said, now, he said, this is what you're seeing. You're seeing you. Third person that means you as an object he says you see this face is moving it's got shape it's got size and it's got duration it won't be there forever he said now turn your gaze 180 degrees back Okay, and he said, that's who you really are. That, there. Okay, and that's the emptiness. Okay, and I think this is really what Bob meant when he says cognizing emptiness. Appreciating, appreciating that you are that. That you are that emptiness. It means understanding, cognising, understanding, appreciating, cognising emptiness.confused with intelligence.
And when you really see that and you're just sort of going about your life, it's incredible how, you know, we used to think we had to figure everything out in the mind and, you know, what's been happening here for some time is, you know, I'll be going about my day and, you know, things just appear in front of me to be actioned, you know what I mean? And there's no dialogue, there's no story about it, there's just things appearing to be actioned. And I don't know, it's hard to explain in words. It's gratitude for everything happening spontaneously, everything appearing in front of you that needs an action and watching that action take place, but no story attached to it.
It's hard to explain. When you do, you know, Bob's Beyond Words, Beyond Mind book, the first thing he invites you to do is, it's subtitled that section, investigation. And, you know, he says a reference point, come on then, you know it by heart, cannot be found, blah, blah, blah, no independent nature. And when you see that, you know, you realise it's sort of, it's just happening of its own. But there is a concept of an I, me, the co-cornerstone concept that, and there's belief put into that, that there's a something
there doing something making stuff happen the causal agent but actually with rigor and enthusiasm and earnestness look and see close your eyes keep them open doesn't matter sit stand who cares look and see what is there what is there what is there behind these eyes far out nothing nothing no thing literally nothing no thing not and you're right it's not to say nothing is is no object no thing but it's not that there's, you know, there's this cognising emptiness or whatever, and it's full.
It has no lack. But you can't find anything. It's just an illusion that there's a you, a mini-me, sitting behind there controlling things. Oh, no, it's bizarre. It's a total illusion. And it connects that with the front of the body. Somehow that is managing, appearing to manage and do things, but actually it's just you're sitting, watching, you're just, you know, witnessing it, just like you're seeing, witnessing the thoughts come and go, the images, but there is no one entity there look really look it's you knowNo, for want of a better word, blank. And it's the same for every seeming entity. You know? Yeah, Carl. Just to add a little bit to that.
You know, it's not that when we look back and it's empty and I'm that, it's not that there's that little bit of emptiness is me and this is your little bit of emptiness over there. There is no... There is no separation. There is just one emptiness, one... And emptiness also has its opposite, fullness, because everything we say is dualistic. So it's... We are, if you like, and it's not that there's we, because there isn't any people or individuals or entities or special bits. It's that. Fullness, emptiness. It's like a dualistic thing. And that is one. And we cannot possibly understand that. But there is no individuality or any identity.
It's just one thing.Yeah, I used to love what Bob used to say too. Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. That's what we are. And you can't add anything to that. It's absolute, you know. And I'm not talking about the me there. I'm talking about that fullness or emptiness infused with energy that is that one. And it's a good segue to one without a second. Yeah, it's interesting how we get caught up in the whole story of everything once upon a time. One essence, patterning, shaping, forming as everything. And everything is the form, you could say, and the form is nothing other than the emptiness. So any idea, any memory, any belief of this guy, I'm a good guy, I'm a bad, it's not there.
It's disappeared. And then if it comes up, it comes up, who is it appearing for? It's not appearing for anyone. So you can't even be a story. You can't be the whole human condition of growing up and living and growing old and dying and absolute rubbish. Life itself.It is. Yes. But that's the appearance of it all, appearing as all these kind of stories, and yet reality is just this and nothing else. If you like, I think we have another comment. Oh, great. Yeah. How's the time going? Just as a matter of interest. Doing well. Yeah, I think we've got a bit more time. Things are rolling along well.
Sally says, non-conceptual awareness. Oh, thanks. And then Gilbert continues. Hey, Gilbert. Whatever we say about that has to be relative and incomplete. Self-importance is an obstacle to clear and present understanding. Imagining that one that one can add anything wise to describe reality is foolishness in all its flamboyant egotism. Doubt everything, see for yourself, there is no other way. Yes, perfect, perfect. And funny that Gilbert should say that because he's written a couple of books which are excellent, really, really good and really clear. You know, one of them, maybe 12 chapters or more, just saying the same thing in different ways and I really enjoy them.
And I'd love to see you again, Gilbert, if you come to a meeting, please. Sitting in the background giving us words of wisdom over Facebook text is just good enough, I guess. Yes, and you know, that's it, and that came up here too. This reverence for gurus and words of wisdom and learning.Screw all of that. Trust in that which you know intrinsically. That's why nobody can do any of this for you. It's only just pointers. And all the pointers are pointing back at you, the real you. Trust in that. Trust in that and be open to it. Start from the position that you are already that, you are full, no lack, totally full, perfect, nothing to fix, unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected.That's it.
Just what's happening right now is perfectly satisfactory. Nothing else required. You have to see that. You are seeing it. You are seeing it. It's an illusion that you're not seeing it. That's a belief energy going into a concept of doubt that comes up and says, well, I'm not quite sure you're that yet because you haven't read that book or you haven't done that or you didn't understand that point. Forget about trying to understand and analyze in the mind. Just soak it up. Just be present. That's it. You'll never find the answer in the mind.We haven't heard from you yet. On the spot. One of the questions, well, first I acknowledge your question because I had the same one.
And the other thing was if you could comment about the paradox of practice or non-practice in non-duality or this work. Because it feeds into my laziness not to practice. There's no paradox if you recognise there's no doer. Who's doing practice? Who's not doing practice? Take a look. Do the investigation. It's just happening. Yeah, that's what I would say is that's the practice, is do the investigation. Even though it isn't actually you doing it, it's just be aware when there's feelings of being ill at ease with yourself and see that it's a pattern and see the minute you see that, you're again cognising emptiness. And that it isn't.
Probably maybe it shouldn't be labelled a practice, but it's, you know, some people come to non-duality and I think it's even in I Am That that Nasaga Dada says, you know, some fruit is ripe straight away and then there's other little versions of fruit like myself that are hard nuts.to crack and had to see the patterns over and over and over and over again before spending most, well I'd say the majority, in a sort of effortless, spontaneous way of living. It's like, you know, I love the analogy that Paul Hederman uses, walking up the mountain with a backpack full of rocks. And as you're walking up the mountain, you gradually throw some of the rocks out.
And by the time you sort of get to the top, there's no rocks in there. Or that's a way of describing how my mind was when I first got here, or how the mind was. There's no my mind because that's naming and claiming. You know, there was a lot of conflict and there was a lot of dissipation of energy and there was a lot of, you know, looking for ways out. If you like, and then all of a sudden there wasn't. And I can only speak from here. It was trusting what Bob said, you know, being pointed back in the direction of my own being and shining the light of awareness that I am.
Onto those patterns, which aren't mine, never were mine. Yeah, so that's how it happened here.That's very helpful. But sometimes... Yeah, yeah, I've got one. That's very helpful. But, you know, it's very frustrating for people who have got less ripe fruit. Who are very frustrated to have somebody saying, oh, there's nothing to do, like a smarter and laugh. It sounds, it's smart, it doesn't teach you anything. It just seems smart-ass. Yes, I know what you mean. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, and if you look at all the teachers, I've really been through the mill and most of the people that you see that have been, if I can use the term, realised in this case, they've all done heaps and heaps of practices and they've been to lots of all around and about.
Or they've been hanging out with people who have, you know, have seen. So what's the point, you know? We need a bit of empathy, us unripe through. And it doesn't, you don't learn anything by going, see, there it is, you know. I agree. You're hearing what I'm saying. Do you understand? I agree. I agree. I totally agree. And that's why, yeah, just one sec. And that's why for 40 years I was lucky enough to be able to speak to.when I got called, maybe not for 40 years, maybe for 30, because I didn't have any questions after that. The questions stopped arising. I was lucky. And I do agree.
That's why I said it's important to be in the company of truth. This is, I can only speak from here. That's what it was from here. Some people are lucky enough to see who they're not immediately and never have another question. I don't know them. I've never met one. But, you know, that's why I love satsang, you know, and that's why I felt very grateful. And, yes, it can appear arrogant that people go, oh, you've just got to do this, you've just got to do that and blah, blah, blah. But the thing I would say is who is it happening to? It has to be a me.
Where is the me? Can you find it? The me lives in the memory. It's only an image you have about yourself. It's not who you truly are. And that might sound glib and it might sound, oh, yes, that's all very well for you, but it works. It works and you have to do it, I think. That's what happened here. I can only speak from here. Yeah, look, I really understand what you're saying. And the question was, what's the paradox? Well, the paradox, it's not something that I can really explain. But let me just answer.from from coal okay and so so when I was about 17 I read a book I didn't read it I started on the first page of a book called I and thou it was by Martin Buber who was a who was a Jewish mystic yeah And at 17 years old, I could read a page of a book and understand it.
And this page, I didn't understand a thing about. And it was non-duality. But it, it, this is life. And I thought, I've got to understand that. And I spent until I was in my 60s, early 60s, searching. And that search was really, really painful. Yeah? I mean, you know, there's so many holier-than-thou or good doers who want to tell you about their belief systems. And that sort of thing. Okay, and then when I was, I don't know what age, recently I suppose, relatively recently, I read a book by Ken Wilber and it was No Boundary. And I realised when I read No Boundary that that's what that Ken Wilber was talking about stuff that Martinand Biba was talking about.
Yeah, yeah. And at the same time, I was going to 12-step groups. I'm not an alcoholic, but I was an adult child of an alcoholic, and I was codependent. And I spent a lot of time in those groups, yeah? And I met a guy called Alan. And Alan used to come to Bob's. And Alan kept on saying to me, oh, it's not like I won't tell you who Bob is yet. You're not ready. And Alan, and this was a frustrating time. But when I met Bob, I suddenly realised that that's what I really wanted, yeah? And I spent, it was about three years with Bob, okay?
And Bob used to say, there isn't a me, you know? That was frustrating for me, like the sort of frustration that I think that you're talking about. Because it didn't cut, you know, it didn't cut. I spent about three years with Bob. And then I got a bit disenchanted because I just wasn't getting anywhere. And I wanted to get somewhere. Yeah? That was the problem. And I got... I started to get angry with myself and I decided I wasn't going to go to Bob's anymore. But I kept on coming back because I was hoping, you know. And then my...And then Bob said to me once, about that time, I was sitting over there and Bob was sitting up there.
And Bob said to me, he was angry with me. He says, how many times have I got to tell you? He says, there's nothing to get and there's nobody to get it. And I thought, all I heard was there's nothing to get. I thought, you bugger. You know, I thought, wow. And I was so angry. And I was just sitting there fuming inside. And then it suddenly started to go down and the anger went. And it went down and there was, all there was was peace there. And then I heard, and there's nobody to get it. And I looked, and like I'm not aware of my ears, I was not aware of anything that I could call call.
And it just happened that way. Okay. And I don't know, I don't really want to add a story of why, and this is because, because that really is trying to explain reality. And, you know, I know now that that's absolutely, totally illusionary waste of time. But that's what happened. So you did do things.person, this fellow here, asked, well, there was a path in a sense. There was, because if you hadn't have read that first book, if you hadn't have read the second book, if you hadn't have kept coming back to Bob and Bob hadn't have been angry, I don't think you would have had the scene.
So that's very frustrating. Remember, it's a story. I'm not going to say that you should do something. I'm not going to say you should do something because there truly, truly, truly isn't anything to do. And there is nobody to do it. And I get that in theory perfectly. Yeah, I know, I know, I know. I can't add anything. I think we can. Yeah, and the times when I'd bring Bob and I'd be in some sort of conflict and he'd say, how many times have I got to tell you there is no fucking me? I go, oh, God, that's right. Oh, God. Oh, God. And I'll tell you what else.
There's no me there. No me there. No me there. No me there. No me there. All of these so-called sages and book writers that you're angry at right now, there's no one there to be angry at. You know that Buddhist story about the, I think it is,the boats. There's a guy who's floating, fishing. He's on a river. He's fallen asleep in the boat. He's having a lovely dream. He's enjoying it. The sun is shining. And then all of a sudden, bang, some other boat bangs into him. And he's really pissed off and he's rowing. He's getting up. He's about to shout and yell at the guy in the other boat.
He realizes the other boat's empty. What happens to all of that pent up, immediately dissipates when you realise there's no one there to be angry at. And if you had a bird's eye view of his boat and the boat he realised his boat was empty too. And all the boats are empty. And this is just, you know, wonderful that you're, how fantastic that you're, you know, having aware of what's going on in this dream that you're pissed off. Great. Love it. Don't resist it. Anyway. Wow. So because if there's no, no one's doing anything, there's no doer as such. So practice or no practice will happen.
Like I think there's a story about with Bob when someone came to a meeting and anyway, and they were told this and they were defiant and they said, well, and then they rang Bob from a telephone box. Oh, I love that. And they said, you tell the story.They said, well, you know, if there's no me, you know, I might as well just do nothing then. And Bob said, well, stay in the telephone box. See if you can stay in the telephone box. See if you can stay in the telephone box, how long you can stay in the telephone box. So you'll be moved to do something.
Yeah. No matter what. And I used to have a real problem, you know, about choice, you know, and Bob would say, there is no choice maker. I'd go, what do you mean? I'm always making choices, you know. And he said, just watch that. See how a group of ideas come up and then a choice is made. But who is actually making the choice? Have a look at that. There is no choice maker. I go, what the hell does that mean, you know? And then I just realised that that's always happened. There's never been a choice maker. But, you know, like I said, a hard nut to crack here.
Exactly. So like the choice is going to appear like in the dream. This is a dream. This is nothing. So it's like a thought will come. I'll go right or go left. Where did that thought appear from? No one created it. It just appeared. And then all of a sudden you might find that the body goes right or it goes left. And then another thought says, I'm going to go left or I'm going to make the decision. Where did that appear from?In the same place. How did the movement that way go? It's the same essence, running the whole show. But don't confuse the thought is not the doer.
The thought is a commentary on a, it's a nothing. It's the thought comes up, but actually, if you're really paying attention, the choice, not made by an individual, it was already made. It's already happening in this pure field of infinite potential. Right? The thought comes up, gives the impression, the illusion that there is a choice to be made for an individual doer. What individual doer? The thought is just a... Yes. Yeah. Just to episode three, it's like... It's like that things just happen out there, yeah? And one of the things that happen is that we have a story about it, that things happen. One of the things happen is that there is a mind and it thinks.
And one of the things that it... Happens when it thinks, just like trees grow, is that it claims authorship for all happening. Naming and claiming. And that's what gives the illusion of me and it's really, really strong. And when you seethese sorts of things, then you can Just say these sorts of things. Watch the mind. See how it works. Watch it. That doesn't mean analyse it and try to understand it with all the information of all the books you've read. But just watch it. Watch it. And just in the watching, that's enough. It's just letting it be, watching it, see how it works, and stop there.
Stop there. That's it. Nothing to be done.Yeah. Oh, you were going to read some. That just reminded me of what Bob calls natural mind. Yes. When the narrative mind stops, I think he says that you're face to face with natural mind. And that's the answer to the question, what's wrong with right now if you don't think about it? Everything's perfectly resolved in the unborn water mind. That's that true nature that you are. Natural functioning. Natural functioning without the unnecessary but enjoyable potentially overlay of the vibration that occurs, which we call mind. When you look, there is no mind. It's just as much an illusion as the ego and the mini-me and the central controller.
It's just something you can't even put your finger on the thoughts even, can you? They have no internal validity, veracity of their own. It's just like, oh, gone. It's like, oh, it is in essence an illusion. Real, no, real in essence, but an illusion in appearance. But it has no power to do anything. It appears to have a power and it's illusory through the directing of attention. And focus.to those seeming vibrations that come up that are attached to a core thought, which is the me, I as individual doer. And that's why the investigation is, I'm not going to call it a practice, something worth doing fundamentally again and again and again and again.
Take a look. Can you find the doer, the reference point, the boundary?Earnestly take a look. It brings you right back. I would say to practice. There's nowhere to go, nothing to get. But until you realize that, you're going to practice and practice and practice until it's recognized and you can just drop the practice. But even while you're practicing. There's actually nothing that you can get. Because you can't get what you already are. Yeah. It's just a play. Yeah. It's a play. And there's some other things online, is there, Ben? Yeah, I've got maybe less. Oh, right. I said to the guitarist at Kavisha's partner on stage, you make a guitar sound like two guitars.
And he said, well, that's the practice. Practice and practice and practice. And you learn technique. And the technique gets better and better. And then the natural expression comes through. Exactly. And you forget about the technique. Yeah, exactly. Perfectly said. In language, in the...Sanskrit language, often a word will give much more description to what comes through in English, which is a much younger language. But for instance, the word, Bob uses this reference point. insubstantial, without, what does he say in that? With any substance or independent nature. Without any independent nature. Or substance. And then he uses ego as well, drops that in as well in this category.
In Sanskrit, The word for ego is ahamkara. Now that's a composite of aham, which is I, translated as I, and kara is the agency form of to do, make or create. So it's telling you, That is the eye maker. The ego is the eye maker. So you get a better feel for what is implied by it.Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo?
Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? Er wo? ErConsciousness has never divided into two, even though it appears to divide into an infinite display, including the frustrated me that wants freedom. Sally says, loving this conversation about the apparent process.
Thanks, Sally. And Gilbert says, nothing about the me is strong. It does not exist. So thanks to the online contributions. Jane, you spoke of the person going up the mountain with the backpack and slowly depositing rocks as they climb the mountain. There's another Chinese story. I think it's Chinese. Someone asked the man, what does enlightenment, he's carrying a big bag of rocks on his back and someone asked, what does enlightenment look like? And he takes off the bag of rocks and just puts it on the ground. And then he gets asked again, what's life look like after enlightenment? And he puts the bag of rocks back on and just keeps walking.
I love that. Yeah. So I think I forgot to say at the end of that story that, you know, it's a lot. Less effort walking around with an empty backpack than it is with a full one.That's what my mind was like or their mind was like when I first came to non-duality. It was exhausting. And life is not exhausting unless I overdo it, which is an old pattern. But, yeah, life is effortless. And Bob used to talk about effortless living. I thought, what's he talking about? You know, we've got to make an effort, you know. But we're action figures. Actions happen. There's no choice maker or action maker, if you like.
Try staying in the phone box. You won't last long. We are action figures. It's interesting to watch that when you get up in the morning and you see how all these things take place and there's no naming and claiming. It's just all this action takes place. It's interesting to watch, isn't it? Yeah. And you've just reminded me, Gilbert sometimes will say, you know, when you get up in the morning, did you flip the switch on?Did you have to flip the switch on when you got up this morning? There is no, it just, it's happening naturally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's natural. You never turn the lights on.
You can't even find the switch, right? Like when you go to bed at night, can you turn yourself off? Can you really? Is it just being, it's just being done. It's just happening. It's all done. And, you know, they say, what is, how does it go? Blah, blah, blah, and it will all be done for you. Wow, it's all being done for you anyway. That net, it always has been. This belief in the idea that once I attain enlightenment, realization, all will be well and all will be somehow serene and blissful and much better than it is now and blah, blah, blah. And what a crock.
There never, ever was any doer there. The only difference is a realization. You see through the illusion of there being a doer. A self, a causal agent who does it all. And in that recognition, that's, wow, nothing left to lose. Freedom. I never did anything wrong. I never did anything right. There's nothing I need to do in the future. There's no regrets. So it is what it is as it's happening right now.That's why the chop would carry water. Yeah, everything's happening as it should. You got another question? No. Anyone else? We've got five minutes to sing us a song. Oh, sing you a song. All right.
Okay. Yeah, I think I'll sing what I sang at Bob's physical body farewell, not that he ever was a physical body. Yeah, it's a gospel song. Yeah, so. Come here, disconsolate.Come to the mercy sweet, fervently near. He'll take yourHeal, heal your fur. God has no sorrow. That heaven cannot cure. Joy of the desolate light of the straying home. Hope of the penitent, the very clean.Heal, heal your wounded heart. He'll take your anguish. Earth has no sorrow that heaven cannot cure. I said earth has no sorrow that heaven cannot cure.Yeah, and that heaven is deep down within. May you find it now. Thank you, Danny. Thank you, Danny.