This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
We're good? Yes. Hi everyone. Hi everyone. Hi. Before we get started with today's meeting, we're just going to go around the group and have everybody say their name. Now this isn't my area of expertise. Dean's just left, so I'm going to have to swing this. We won't, we'll end on Sunday, but let's go. Adrian? Hi, my name's David. David. Josh. Anita. Saroj. Priya. Hi, Priya. You also? Amen. Amen. Jimmy. Tigo. Ross.Salana and Dean's disappeared for the moment. And then Sanjay. And, oh, actually, Kat too. Give us a wave, Kat. Okay. Yeah, right. Okay. And Tanya. And Tanya. As Kat announced last week, Kat's in Poland at the moment, visiting mother country and friends and family.
And today we have a special guest speaker, Dr. Sanjay Rukhava. And we're very grateful that you could speak today. I can't hear a word. What? Oh, really? Yeah, that's right. It's pretty solid. Is that coming to it? No, not properly, actually. Oh, maybe it's not. You haven't got the... Oh, yes, thank you. I can play that now. How's that? Can you hear it? I don't know. I can't tell. It's not connected to anything. Yeah, it does do the recording. It doesn't have any... It's all connected to space. I'll speak up a little bit. So today, in Kat's absence, we have a special guest, Dr. Sanjay Raghav.
And Sanjay was a good friend of Bob's. Sanjay's a neurologist. He really helped Bob, especially with his Parkinson's. He was a good friend of Kat's as well, and of mine. I just don't see enough of him these days. But Sanjay has his own.Conscious circle group is still good. To call own looks like a more burden on your head, you know, when you say Sanjay's own. It's everyone's. Everyone is part of it. I believe we are all conscious circle. This is also a conscious circle, you know. When you're conscious about consciousness, it's a conscious circle only. What, I need to speak something? You do. About what?
What would you like to talk about?Whatever comes up. It's really hard to talk about something which your senses don't perceive.So pointing towards something which which you cannot know like you can know this speaker, you can know this computer. You cannot know it like that. So all the senses fail, mind fails, intellect fails.The reason is because it has no form, it has no name. It's not in space or time. We all are right now in it. And we are in it all the time.this body-mind complex and the situation and other beings, things, They are all in it. There is nothing outside it. Nothing beyond it. To know it, I believe the most important thing is your interest in it.
Your longing, your interest.brings you there in a way that you now identify it, not as an object. Not even as an experience. But as something which was always with us. And because of our own ignorance, you can say, or our other interest in this word,We forgot that. But the moment You are interested in it. It is revealed. It is so simple and so easy and so direct. It has no name. And if you want to give it a name, you can call it God, you can call it divine, you can call it self, you can call from a Vedic point Brahman, awareness, Atman, Paramatman. It doesn't matter what you call it.Your body can be called by any name.
Some people have many names, nicknames, and some friends called by some other funny name. Sometimes people change their name. That doesn't change anything. It is subtler than the subtlest you have ever thought of.Once you have a knack of it, you understand it. Whatever method you have applied or practice you have done, It can never leave you. And the simple reason is because you are that.The one who thinks he knows it is actually illusion. There is nothing beyond it, nothing before it. It is the source. And it has no problem if you say it does not exist or I don't know and I don't care.That awareness allows you to say whatever you want to say.
It even allows you to do what you want to do. Though there are consequences of our actions coming from egoistic desires, It is not any type of punishment that it punishes you. I know for some people God punishes and he is watching and he tries to fix you. I think these are all concepts made by the human mind.He only is loving and he is kind and he is compassionate. And he is actually unconditional love. It never judges anyone. Never punishes anyone. When we have suffering, it is our own creation and we suffer and then we sometimes even we blame in dualistic mode as God, why you have done this to me?
I'm such and such nice person.This is just a self-talk. He is always free. He is uninvolved. Just like when sun is shining on things and people are doing good work and bad stuff and whatever. You can't blame sun because sun came in morning and people woke up and they started their activities and they are doing different things. You can't blame sun that why you created day and look I'm doing all the wrong things. It's your doings. Same is with that. It is always that uninvolved state.For an ego mind it looks separate. Because this separation is created by us only. You go, you try to find this separate person within you, you investigate.
And it disappears. There is no one there here who is doingwho has goals, things are just happening. Everything is happening. Happening in this moment only, not in past, not in future, in this moment. If you want to know that and you want to be in that awareness all the time, You give up your separate identity. Whatever you have worked hard to create,that entity which you define by your bio or CV or resume or what people think about you or what you think about yourself It is all mental creation. I know it actually gives happiness or some feeling of proud to some people. But I also have to say this is the only cause of suffering, nothing else.when we wake up that ego which is in the seed form in deep sleep sprung out and whole world is created and I is created and you is created and we start our day as an individual.Watch this entity very carefully all the time.
Watching can be mixed initially with ego and you cannot separate it in one moment or one day. But this constant watching creates a gap in this observer and this entity which we think I amyour constant watching to this entity which talks to thoughts, which plans the day, which has doership, which also has happiness and suffering. You just watch that entity. This watching is so powerful. Then this observer which is always uninvolved is left. It is a gradual process.And it takes time. It takes time because we still have interest in doership of this I identity. And it takes time. We have learned this conditioning. From our school, from our society, from our family.
And for deconditioning also we have to learn in a way, we have to practice.And the practice is... Just observing. This practice is very different from the usual meditation which people understand in religious context and also in spiritual context. They think sit every day for 5 minutes or 10 minutes or go to a temple on Tuesday or a church on a Sunday and things will be sorted out.This is... Much more a job than just simply doing for 10 minutes or on a weekend. It has to be constant practice. Because that entity what we truly are is always there and that entity what we think is also there so there is duality in our livingOne is reality, the other is a reflection.
But reflection will stay if you keep feeding that reflection as me. You observe. And you don't even have to judge this ego. And I can tell you, no ego is good ego. People sometimes say, oh, that person has a bad ego. I have a good ego. It's not like that.It is just a reflection which is conditioned by mind. No one to blame, nothing to judge, not to judge yourself, not to judge others. Try to fix the problem. Get rid of it. For some people this observing can be difficult if they have never practiced it and they can question that I don't understand this. Because they are always in their thoughts and self-referential.ego circuit is what they know.
So you can use small other techniques as well. And I was talking this morning to people. That ego's habit is to choose the best for itself whether you live in society with family or whatever so whenever there is a Deliberate choice to select something what ego wants.you can select exactly opposite to that. This way, the ego can be taught a lesson. Because look, when you do anything with your intuitive awareness, you are not selecting anything. That is the place, space we have to be. But we have to start where we are. So if we are in the ego mode, and we select things because ego is selfish ego only wants to serve this body-mind complex it wants best for the bodyand it can also do in a way to impress others giving best to you rather than to me so people can say oh Sanjay is such a nice person you know he gave the best to Dean and he he just accepted the lower stuff so you know it works in so many ways And you don't have to prove a point to anyone in this world, not even to this ego.
You just have to be out of it. So you have to work very consciously and in a very alert mode. That is why they call it awakening. And this is the reason why you know all the things which are seen as depressants alcohol and water are not considered good in this process because they take away your that awareness mode, you know, which is in the prefrontal cortex. I'm using some neurological stuff because science is trying to catch hold of these things. So people who are more skeptical can understand and accept it, you know. It's not something voodoo or something, you know, something you are imagining in your mind or creating, you know, in a group or in a cult.
It's nothing like that.It's so easy. And nowadays this guru and chela and all these drama of disciple and teacher is also It's better not to talk about those things because they also get very dirty. So best is to believe in your own guru, which is your own self and work from there. Only thing which is needed is your own honesty with your own self. That's all is needed. When you are honest with your own self, it is always there and you will find it.But sometimes people try to find it outside, you know. They go to where the God lives in those synagogue and temple and church to find there.
And we bribe him that you give me this, I'll give you this. So we do all those sorts of things also. Ego does all things. Ego has created a separate God also. So keeping that God on a higher pedestal, so we can do all the petty stuff, you know. We can continue doing all the, and then we will bribe him, you know, building a temple or doing something like that. But when you take responsibility that I have to fix this internal problem,and there is no external God which is doing anything good or bad to me, then you can fix it. And it is a beautiful journey, you know.
And on this journey you meet so beautiful souls. And there is so much of peace in this. Even in this process there is peace and calmness. And love. So the process is so beautiful and as you slowly unfold, you get addicted to it, addicted to your own self. Then it's not boredom when you are alone. Then the solitude is so blissful. And people talk about dispassion, you know, in Advaita they say dispassion is very important. But you don't have to create dispassion. When you love yourself so much, you have no passion about anything. You only love that. So this fashion happens and longing is the initial part, which I believe is a grace, act of grace from that only.
Not everyone has longing. Sometimes because of love you want to tell people around you, you know, oh, this is so beautiful. They say, I'm not interested. So there is also something grace works on us when we are interested in it.Otherwise, there are so many people in this world. How many are interested in this handful? Out of handful people, some people only come to know this only when they are in crisis, when they are having some suffering tragedy. And when the tragedy, suffering is gone, then they go back into the same type of egoistic life. So they come, but then they don't stay there. And then there are some who stay and they find the truth.
So I believe, I would say we all should have this feeling of gratitude for whatever the life, the way it has brought us here, you know. And whatever the life has done to you, good or bad, you should be thankful to it. Because if things would have not worked that way, you would have never come here. And I think... I'm so thankful that, you know, I have been given an opportunity to talk among you fellow beings who are beautiful, beautiful forms of awareness together in this journey. And this journey becomes so beautiful, you know, when everyone is for peace and and non-violence I would say in this world because right now the way the world you can see these forms So we need more people who are established in this.Your self is so beautiful.
Thank you. Thank you, Sanjay. So beautiful. I'm aware Kat's been listening and perhaps Kat would like to speak while others maybe think about any questions they have for Sanjay. So we don't have Sanjay for the whole time, but maybe another half an hour. So sooner rather than later. Kat, can you hear me?Yes, yes, that was beautiful. Thank you very much, Sanjay. That was lovely, lovely here. Discovering the responsibility with it. I'm not going to leave like that. It's just so... And it's relatable. Yeah, anyone questions quickly? So let's make the most of it. No, I can come again. I just wanted to say how amazing it is to be sitting here with Dean and Sanjay and Kat and every single one of you.
I feel so much appreciation and gratitude for the fact that these kind of These two groups, which I've loved for some years now, are connected in this way. I just feel very happy and a lot of gratitude. As if your parents are reunited. Yeah. Um,So, yeah, I have no question, really, but I just wanted to share that reverence for everyone, Solana and Cole and Ross and Tibble, Jimmy, Heyman, Joseph, Priya, Saraja, Anita. And Davey and Adrian and Tanya and everyone. And Pesto1 and Pesto2. And, of course, Bob, who is ever with us. Yeah, so many of you have helped me so much as my teachers and guides and friends.
And I just want to acknowledge all of that, the assistance and just that love and gratitude. So, yeah, thank you. Sweet, sweet.Yeah, sometimes I noticed my mind switches off, but what I noticed that in the beginning was very different than I'm used to when I was here. When this pausing was happening, I noticed that, oh yeah, that is the speaking, but then when the pausing was happening and I observed the room as well, there were two things popping up in me, which was one, I'm like, oh, does it get uncomfortable or does it get comfortable? And once I let the uncomfortable pass, the uncomfortable was, are you not sure if you want to say something or not?
And everyone expecting from you to say something. But once I let that go, it felt like so much presence. And I'm noticing, oh, hang on, this is, oh, there's some noise outside. It's like I notice a lot of presence happening and relaxation. And I don't know whether that's the same topic you're trying to point towards, but that is something I got away of. And that was a very different experience that... I'm used to have when I wasSo that was quite interesting when you point something out and you pause and that pause was like, oh, there's not much, doesn't seem to be so much content to say.
It seemed to be more to look inwards. So that was good. And now I'm noticing myself quite happy. Sitting here, I'm noticing myself feeling connections. I think I smile quite a bit. I feel warm in the face. And that's sort of what I notice without having questions. But I like to say that, yeah. Yeah.What you call as pause, I would say that is not a pause. That is a constant silence, which is the substrate of everything. Words cannot take you there. Words only point towards what you are calling as pause. That is what it is. Because remember, whenever we speak, we are taking an aid from the mind.
You are using the speech faculty, you are putting an intention from the source, though it might be from the source, but intention is coming from the mind and it's coming. But the more pure is the pause, which you're calling as pause, is the silence. So I appreciate that. That is where those all talks should take you. That's what I thought. Great. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you, Dean and everybody else. Thank God. Please repeat the word in relation to alcohol consumption about prefrontal cortex, because I wasn't fortunate enough to hear it. About alcohol? Yes, the consumption of alcohol. Look, alcohol is a CNS depressant.
And just understand in a very simple way, it is more awakening, more aware of what's happening. And it is a CNS depressant. It will depress.Press your faculties which will help you to awaken. That's what I'm saying. So it can't be an aid. And then it has its own tendency that the parts of the brain which you feel calm because it's not coming in the domain of your thoughts right now. But it comes with a vengeance when it's not in the system. So it's not a solution to the problem. I'm saying this because I know so many people around us, they get into alcohol because they can't tolerate the suffering around and the thoughts within and they want to get rid of it.
Their purpose is good, but it does not serve that purpose. As you truthfully and correctly and rightly mentioned in your spill that noticing this awareness or consciousness or Atman or Brahman bring us a lot of fortune that's my own translation this subject matter will be one of the problems that it's going to resolve by practicing the practices. And I very agree with you about daily practices and not only practices on weekend or occasion practices. Daily practices for eternity. Is the real meaning of devotion. God bless you. Thank you.Is there anything on the comments from the online community? Any comments about the volume on the sound?
That's good. Catherine says, love to all, simply blown away by the simplicity of God, maybe three, maybe years in the early years. Maybe Dean, you need a stick. Oh, yeah, maybe I need a stick. But this is the only message. I actually need glasses as well. Unless you can read it. Just that one. There you go. Thank you. So Catherine O'Reilly says, love to all, simply blown away by the synchronicity of Bob meeting you as his neurologist. I am not typing as you are talking as weather patterns have disrupted reception. Perhaps I will have to join the meeting later. And it says Catherine is watching and I think that's, oh, some.Thank you for talking from the spaciousness from Sally Brackhart.
Catherine's back on. And I think that's the extent of the comments so far. Jimmy, please. Hello. Sanjay, it was lovely hearing you speak. And sort of seconding what Yosef said, I was really, Loving the silence between the words and the silence that the words were coming from. I would love it if you could speak to...heartache and pain and being present with it and what that looks like and feels like. Sorry, can you repeat it? I would love if you could speak to heartache and darkness and suffering a little bit more. Heartache? Yes. I don't think I can speak much about this becauseWhatever you pick mind straight, they're all same.
Whether someone is greedy or someone is highly emotional or someone is after lust. Or someone is fearful. These are different emotions coming only from the mind because whatever the picture in front of us the mind is showing, we believe on it and we believe that I am the one who is having heartache or someone has left me or you know whatever darkness is happening it's all in the domain of mind you can call it any type of emotion or feeling it is all coming because of identity as modibind complexSo you don't have to fix. Different emotions in a different way. There is one fix for everything.
Give up this identity which believes I am the body-mind complex. And that is by practice of that. And I will tell you, any type of emotion, whatever you describe, comes only in form of a thought. Some thoughts come with strong emotions. So who is talking to these thoughts? Who is listening to these thoughts? That entity needs to be observed. And when that entity is not there, there is never a thought. Or if there is a thought, it's like a floating cloud. You are unaffected by it.So importance is in practice to get rid of this association with the mind-body complex, the one who is engaging and feeling that I have a problem.
Actually the problem is I, not the I have a problem. If I gone there is no problem. Problem is there because of I only. Rest we can blame our situation, our circumstances and this has happened.So my... Take on any of these emotions is the same that you look within who is suffering. As Bhagwan Ramana Maharishi used to say, who am I? Find that I and go to the source and then you will realize, oh, there is no sufferer. Rather than sorting out the issue, you sort out who is having the issue and you will find there is no one there. So this is the thing.
And this is the absolute teaching of. And this is the absolute which you will know within you. Others work only in the domain of mind, all psychologists, psychotherapy, so all those types of things definitely help. But if you want from the absolute, then there is no sufferer and there is no suffering.Just remind you that people have had profound awakenings in the middle of torture. You're not the body. You're not the person. And, you know, that end of suffering arises when you stop identifying with that. It doesn't deny that it's happening. It just doesn't identify with it as much. Yeah, it stops identifying. Did you say talk to or torture?
Talk to you later. I want to amend something that I said earlier. I said so many of you have helped me, and I want to actually amend that and say every single one of you. So I'm not discounting anyone or anyone's influence. So I guess also... Yeah, just thank you. I just want to say thank you. So thank you. God and everyone. Check if Kat has anything. Oh, yeah. Kat, you know, you can speak up. I'm just enjoying. I really, really enjoy it. I loved something.how you actually started the whole talk that was brilliant to actually point out and i just want to highlight it because it is so precious so valuable that you know people are spending lifetimes decades thinking outside themselves to find some special state and sanjay you said right from the beginning This cannot be known in the same way that you know another person.
It doesn't have a name. It doesn't have a shape. But looking in this way is just futile. It's never going to bring any fruits and results. It doesn't have a name. It isn't like knowing someone's face. That was just right from the start. And then the silence. Ah, of course. But can you not know a dream? Can you not know it?The existence itself is the knowing, is the knowing of the consciousness. But it is not the same knowing as we know each other. And by the way, I also enjoyed Josh highlighting the two groups coming together as if they were ever separate. But also that Sanjay wrote a book on silence, which he gifted to Bob, and Bob gifted Sanjay a book.
And that was one of the last books that Tanya and Bob and I, we would just read a chapter a day aloud and really enjoy. Just to see a slightly different language, but the same clarity shining forth and being shared. As if there was no separation. That's what there isn't. There isn't. Everything happens within that. Faceless, facelessness, that awareness of existence. Yeah, again, I'm really grateful that this is happening. I sent also Sanjay messages that I got from strangers, a person who is just somewhere on the other side of the world saying that, oh, I don't know if you know that there is this other guy, Sanjay, I love him to bits.
And you should meet. Well, I say I do wish that it will happen one day, that we will come and speak about our music. And that we are.So, yeah, continue. People contribute, you know. As usually, we have the other half of the meeting. Everybody is aware that they exist. There is a lot of people here who realize that seeking outside for any pleasant special state makes no sense. And of course there is no person that realizes, there is no ego that realizes. The realization just dawns the same way the realization that any realization of something forgotten just dawns, just arises in consciousness. And in that clarity, there is no self, there is no one who seeks, there is nothing to be found.
The existence shines out of its own light, and it shines because it shines. You are, and you can see, feel, taste, touch, smell. So in a way, I also enjoyed when Sanjay said, you know, you can, if you want to give a name, it doesn't have one. It can't have one. But if you want to give it a name, it sometimes gets a name God. So that consciousness that is beating your heart, that is leaving you, if you call it God, that is God looking out of your eyes. Get out of the way and let him look, let him experience, let him see, let him hear, let him speak.
And sit back and marvel at the unfolding. Enjoy the ride. Who is enjoying?Well, if there is no self, it's still God. It's still only that one self that is enjoying with no one else. It's enjoying through all the different modalities, all the different patterns, shapes and forms. So there are people here in that group that always have been, who understood fully that there is no self. And they move out of the way and the beautiful expression comes. And there are also people who understood, and they are not people that understand. They are just, again, the planet, the dawn. Some things are the other, some pointers that strike home.
They will grow of their own. And as Sanjay says, deconditioning of that habit of engaging with the narrative mind is gradual and takes time. Realization that you exist is immediate. Who doesn't realize that they exist? We all realize that it's existing. But yes, the habit of constantly attending to the chatter and chasing behind pleasure and avoiding pain, that habit will persist, but not from that clarity of existence. It's entertaining. Nothing wrong. It's entertaining. But I would like to invite everyone with full clarity or with partial clarity or just a couple of pointers that have been seen through. Contribute them. Let God speak. Let them shine forth and let anyone who can hear it and tune in.resume and realize, oh yes, of course, because that's what the realization is, of course.
There is nothing that you don't know. If it was, it wouldn't be it, because it wouldn't be omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent. Please, let me be honest with you and let go of fear. Thank you, Pam. Ask Sanjo questions. Asking questions, you know. It's such a beautiful way of explaining things. Firstly, thank you, Sanjo. That was so beautiful. And it felt so pure. So it feels so pure and just non-judgmental. And it just feels like it's coming from that. That space detached from all that worldly way of speaking. I've had an interesting experience the last 18 months, a lot of really heavy fear-based egoic patterns. Tormenting me in a little way and not being able to sleep over a fair bit of time and it's slowly being stuff has been coming coming to the surface and last night it got really terrifying and really bad and I and I started praying to God and I started saying asking for help And it, because I do a lot of energy.energetic work and I realized that we're just energy.
I'm just energy that is aware. Like there's a very, that's undisputable. But these egoic patterns come up and then it snapped off and it collapsed and then there was just awareness. It feels like sometimes on the the right the pointiest end of the suffering something snaps or something the ego gives up or something and um and i realized it was i had to go deeper into the the space itself in terms of the focus and not on the not the mind it's sort of like i had to go deeper which went underneath all the crap on top. Anyway, I probably haven't had a great sleep, so I didn't mind not explaining that too well.
Sort of what's been, has happened.I don't know how to tell you the story. Yeah, look, whatever is happening, you can still see that it's all happening in awareness. And problem again is the same, identity with all what is happening in the mind is happening to me. When this impersonal awareness, which is actually there, but to get into it, you have to give up this relationship with what mind throws on you. It is not easy and I have to say it needs patience, perseverance and when those you know big clouds of suffering comes from the mind it looks like it's not going to end and I can't sleep and all the past comes on haunts you and all but it ends it always ends if I ask you what happened six months ago when you had a last sleepless night you will not even remember what exactly happened It's like that.
They have no significance. We only give significance by thinking that they are trying to threaten me. So it's a self-created fear. But see it in the vastness of awareness. And accept whatever is coming because it is coming because of the conditioned mind and if you don't entertain they will stop coming If you don't get fearful, they will never come to you. It's like, you know, some people are bully. They bully to one who gets bullied. And if you don't get bullied, they don't bully you. Same is our mind.Don't worry about it. And it will go on. And when you pray, prayers have strong power. You pray to God that God in you pulls you in.
When your prayers are humble and with honesty, it works, always works. So use prayers also. Look, in this journey of realization, we should not say, oh, I follow only this and I can't do this and I can't do japa, I can't do prayer. It doesn't matter. There are all ways. Use whatever support you can gather. And it will all help you. What you said about being pulled in, because that's felt, there's been a few of those occasions where I've been pulled in. Just take me, and it's, you can't describe that, but that's what it's felt. How are you feeling now? Pretty, right? That's what your base is.
That's what we all are. And then sometimes these things come and...Doesn't matter. Is that right? Yes. Yes. Thank you, everyone. Nice meeting all of you. Thank you. Your presence, everyone's presence. Thank you so much. Thank you, everyone. Thank you to all the people who are, I think, online as well. Thank you for attending. Thank you for being part of it. And keep this group going and I would suggest there should be much more gatherings everywhere in all parts of the world. It will be so beautiful, you know. We need hundreds of Kat and Tanya and Dean and everyone, you know. So everywhere it is the same thing happening.
Thank you, Sanjay. The meeting will continue though. So, yes, we'll still continue for another 35 minutes. Thank you again for coming. I need to go as well, but that's okay. So we'll just, the meeting will continue just as a few people move around and shuffle themselves.Is there anyone that would like to give their interpretation or expression? You can't question Sanjay because he won't be here. Neely. Thanks. Thanks, Ross. I just wanted to acknowledge Adrian's observation. Yeah, it seemed to resonate here thatWhenever those situations come along, there doesn't seem to be a way out. And yet the way out is always within. And you feel there's that great, after such an experience, you feel there's that great reservoir that has no limit within, that there is the...The limitless peace and security.
It's always there. It takes some sort of whack over the head to sort of bring you to that. Force you there. Yeah. Yeah, so thank you. Yeah, it was good. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Don't see the camera. No. I don't mind. I know, I think. You're almost asking for it. No, no, no. Suffering. Suffering. As a human life, we will all have suffering. We'll all have profound suffering. We'll all experience. Every one of us. For me, a few years ago, about five, six years ago, I had a profound breakdown after a very long marriage. And in that, my mind was insane. It was insane.
Couldn't eat, couldn't sleep. I was crazy. I couldn't sleep. And the only place that was a refuge I found was awareness, I found, was awareness.at the heart center. You know, I have a huge long history of yoga practices. None of them helped me because I couldn't, the mind was so broken. But I remember coming, finding the heart space, which is what Ramana talks about. You know, there is a heart space where it's completely still. I mean, you know, it is a practice in some ways, but it shut the bloody mind off that was just insane. It started to give me strength coming back into the body, you know, out of the craziness.
And I found that really a profound... It's just an awareness thing. There is a space that can be held, an awareness place in the body, which is still. Oh, my God, what a relief. I would have been dead probably by now. So it's just something that was my experience. And they do talk about that heart space. As being the sea of love and stillness, and out of that love grew. So anyway, that was just my experience. I was just thinking that it was such a profound experience at a time when the mind was so broken that it was of great value. You know, I haven't got any magic solutions.for suffering, you know, but everybody suffers.
I mean, my God, you know, I can remember times, you know, years where, you know, I didn't sleep at all and it was really, really painful. But I suppose what I do is I look at it and I just think, well, that's what's happening. And shrug my shoulders because absolutely nothing in here is going to affect that out there. You know, it's just going to happen and it's going to play out and enjoy what I have got. I think that's really... And as I say, but there's no solutions there. That's just the way it is. I often wonder, though, if the deep suffering we will all experience is the jumping off point for a deeper spiritual experience.
Yeah. And it's value. I never bemoan the fact that I had that severe period in my life. It was the most profound and wonderful period. And somehow, you know, you can't say, oh, it's good you're going through all that suffering. So it's good you're going through all that suffering because, man, are you going to have fun on the other side? It doesn't make it any different. A little bit.Yeah, no. You're going to go somewhere really good. Maybe not this time. Maybe next time. But anyway, that's just it. Yeah, what came up just before was to me that when I have situations where it feels suffering, the mind wants to change it.
And then, yeah, run away or... I think the runaway doesn't really work too much for me. I'm actually the opposite. But it's sort of, I think the clarity that whatever is in my physical or mentally actions, I be clear that I've done what I've done sort of thing. So it's sort of like that clear view of... Whatever is in my power to have the best outcome, I'm satisfied with what my actions were good. And once that is sort of clear, I can relax. And then after that, it's just feeling it.I mean, once this is clear and I'm like, I've done what I've done, I can tell myself I've done the best I've done.
It's all in my power and that's it. I can take that off. And once this is off, I'm like, it's just feeling it. And the earlier you feel it, the better the quick up will be born. Yeah, that's to me what I learned, so what came up, yeah. And to allow it to feel it, it's sort of after this it feels like relief and so much more true. I don't know what, there's no picture of the tool, it's just a feeling. It feels like, ah, this is my center, it's the center and it feels like... There's nothing more to avoid or get or anything. It's just like, this is it.
There's no other word I can say, but that's how I... I can describe my experience. Let's check in with Kat. Kat, can you hear us? Anything you'd like to offer up?Yeah, we just called them, you know, you see how they are. Yeah, yeah, I can hear you all. And I don't know what to add. So many of you have so much of understanding already. I mean, you know. Maybe it was, Sante was actually already commenting on little tricks, little helpful means that can medicate the suffering if they arise and just acknowledging it. You know, if the prayer arises, acknowledging that. It is not to panic, oh my gosh, this is a practice, oh my gosh, there is separation, me and God, that's all wrong.
The main principle of that understanding is that no one does anything. So if the prayer arises, that's just what arises. No one does it. No one does need to take positive or negative credit or stop. It's just... It's just natural flow in which There is a beauty in that serenity in which one can find oneself on the knees crying out for help or respite. The space that is witnessing that is itself freed from suffering.And having that guts to really be the same and let yourself dive to whatever intensity arises. Let that be experienced fully with no reservations. If there is a cry out for help, there is a cry out for help.
And seeing it in its full glory is just the juice of life, is the beauty of life. Because living long enough, we all had humbling moments. Because without that, without that, so-called painful or negative, there would be no pleasant or positive. So life fluctuates and it takes, things take turn. Currents come in and the currents come out and the day light comes in and then the night comes. And then it's warm and summer and then there is a winter. So the way the life fluctuates and moves,takes us, sending us, it takes itself. To all sorts of diversity, diverse, beautiful, juicy, intense experience. That's the point.
One essence experiencing, appearing, experiencing and expressing itself. Without that expression, which is dualistic by its very nature, without that duality of anxiety and courage and pain and pleasure in all itsbeautiful faces. There is no expression, there is no experience. Without that duality, there is no... Acknowledgement of that wonder of the non-separation. The non-separation is still a fact, it's nothing can be said about it or can be questioned, but to experience it, you know, space if it doesn't have the mortal element of a vehicle that it can use to see, hear, taste, touch and smell. It doesn't even know that it is. The potentiality for conscious awareness is there, but it's not realized.
Unless there is a human form or any other form, unless there is a form, it will stop. Because form may arise in a dream, it doesn't have to be human. But through that form, the formlessness is known. I think this is what Bob sometimes would quote, Thank you, Karam, more of it. That by worshipping the form, I attain the formless. By worshipping one's own form. And it's not really a worshipping, but acknowledging it. The formless behind that gives it life and animates it.says it doesn't have any face, doesn't have any shape, that is known, that is acknowledged. Not as a person, not as an object, not as anything in particular, because it is unobjectifiable.
But at the same time it's undeniable. So even to look at events in life, the winters of life or the stormy weathers, the rainy weathers of life,because of that changing weather, aliveness is acknowledged. So even when there is a humbling moment in life, when that river of life takes you to the places where it's swampy and smelly, stagnant or the opposite takes you places where there is incredible overwhelm and the stress level is very high. Those, these two shall pass. Those are just a phenomenon. Resting back in that silence and seeing those phenomenal points in the flow of life, phenomenal ways and experiences, you know, whether the river is flowing smoothly and slowly or whether it's flowing really fast and the stress level is really high or it drops in the water often.
Seeing that from the perspective of that sky-like awareness, that silence, that stillness, seeing it as a flow within the consciousness that is still, that stillness brings the sense of relaxation and a sense of ease. And even when the overwhelm and stress happens, it is less personal. It is less serious.have a sting. Thing goes out of it like what we say is it's just the appearance it's like as if you know something happened to the costume but nothing happens to the space that animated like you know if you have you spill a red wine on the dress You didn't spill it on yourself, you spilled it on the dress.
If the life is bashing you by having a really high demand of really focused attention, well, that may be a way life is moving you elsewhere. Either to find the ease, and deal with that high demand of focused attention in a dancing movement and enjoy it or move away and it's not up to you you will see where the river of life is going to flow and it is always going to flow through the path of the least resistance. For some people, the path of least resistance is coming from one abusive relationship to another abusive relationship. Because that is familiarity.But in that familiarity there is light.
And there still could be a way of dancing through it, just moving the way the river moves. And there is always that part which is still the pure consciousness, the witnessing present in which the turmoil and challenge and abuse and whatever it is happen. And that space, that knowing, isn't abuse.There is no red wine spilled on it. Even when the body is challenged or the mind is challenged, the space is not. It unconditionally allows the challenge of the mind, of the body. Because that's unconditional. And without those painful moments, pleasure cannot be known. Without those serene moments, the gratitude cannot be known, or whatever you define the opposite.
And just that capacity for knowing.That stillness and the content of the knowing is ever changing. It's like the content of the sky is ever changing. But the sky doesn't. And you are the sky. And even though habitually the mind constantly engages from one cloud to another, constantly projects and looks for another weather, what's the weather going to be tomorrow? Well, the sky that is still the part in your heart, not in the mind. Mind is restless. Mind is moving.But in the heart or in the gut or whatever, again, as long as it's not in the moving mind. In that stillness that doesn't have location. That is here.
It's always here. Then has absolutely no preference and is absolutely free from everything, from suffering, from change, And that is always accessible. It's just relaxing the restless mind. Don't mind the mind. Just relaxing the mind for a moment. And in that relaxation, there is...that moment of respite, that yes, there is nothing wrong ever unless the thought arises and is attended to and believed. Your thought arises in the space and is known the same way the bird is flying through the sky or the cloud is moving through or the wave is moving. It doesn't hurt.It was known from that stillness, from that absoluteness of existence, always here.
That which resides in the heart, not in the mind. Restlessness of the mind is known, is noticed. And there is nothing wrong with that. Yes, but it is uncomfortable. Of course, without discomfort, there couldn't be an appreciation for comfort. And it is temporary. It will move on too.The tension, the stress, it will move on. If you relax to the tension, what happens to it? If you realize that you are the space already relaxed in which that tension arrived or anxiety arises or insomnia arrives in the space that is already free, that doesn't mind.Yeah, that was beautiful. You know, when the heartache arises, the ache, arises, be the space for it.
Be the space for it. If it calls for
crawling up in a ball like a baby and crying your eyes out. Let it come. No resistance. Be the space for it. Don't save it up for later. This is true. It's what it's like. No, just let it come. And you'll see it passes. If you fully let it express, fully express, go into it, love it, love it all. It's not as painful or as frightening as the mind's told you. You just go into it. And that is where you find that sweet spot. That quiet, that... Presents itself because it's satiated. You've been the space for it.And...
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God. What does that mean? It means we give the word the power of God. We believe it like it's God over us. It's nothing. It's nothing. It's a vibration in no thing. Comes and it goes. That's not real. It's ever-changing. Don't pay attention to the commentary. If you want to pay attention, pay attention to what's going on in the body.Let it come. Love it. Love it all. All this talk about mind and ego and everything is all part of the dream. This is all part of the illusion. It's just an appearance, all of it. And there's nothing wrong with any of it.
Love it all. Because eventually, you know, we're going to run out of time and space in the illusion. It's going to end. And it came to pass. And it came to pass. Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Carl. So, just, look, again, I'm not trying to give solutions. I'm just... I didn't mean it. No, I'm just, I want to give you just a couple of things that I was saying. You know, when you get, when I've... Faced with things where there's conflicts in life, I find it really difficult to make a decision, you know, and it tears at you, yeah? And I'm always reminded by the Hinsey Min that says, if you set up what you like against what you dislike, that's a disease of the mind.
The mind does that sort of thing.And the result is inevitable, okay? You're going to be tensioned like that. And I know that's, and look, look, I know that's so, so difficult. But just by contrast, just something that happened to me earlier on this year that was horrible, horrible, horrible, okay? I was in a situation where every breath I took, and it was a deep breath, was followed by a scream in pain. Yeah? And that went on for 20 minutes. And do you know what? I wasn't there. That was a total letting go and I could see it happening and it was fine. It was just happening.
Yeah.We were untouched. Yeah. The thing that it happens within. The spaciousness that it's happening within is untouched by it. Yes, exactly like that. It's beautiful, huh? Yeah. Sometimes, like during my breakdown, there was no ability to separate from the pain because it was so crazy. Yeah. And the body was so sick. Yeah. But finding that there is a spaciousness within the heart space, which is all the yogis in the rituals, that did help in the short term. It was the door opening into freedom. Freedom didn't stop the craziness for a while with the body, but there was a relief. There was an understanding that I'm not that.
I am that. It's all part of me, but I'm, yeah. That happens with inside. Yeah. It's beautiful. That was a beautiful story.We have another question here from David, and it was for Sunday, and fortunately, as we know, Sunday had to go, but he asks, can the impact of alcohol, if any, on awakening be clarified from a neurologist's perspective? And I thought, you know, in general, Sunday's perspective is that alcohol certainly doesn't help, well, doesn't help with clarity. That said, 30 years of alcohol research, and having this conversation with Bob, Bob, you know, in fighting in a way against the alcohol industry for 30 years. But here sits a man 96 years old.
Half of his life was spent in the depths of alcoholism, serious alcoholic psychosis. Look what emerged and Bob said well you know no nothing has brought more souls to God than alcohol maybe kind of well there's the other end of the stick Okay, and this is, you know, it's what gets you there. It's what gets you there in the story, right?Yeah, yeah. But this too shall pass. Everything changes in the story. Nothing stays still. There's only one thing, and I'm calling it a thing. It is no thing that is unchanging, and that is that stillness. It's there wherever you go, whatever you're doing, doesn't matter.
Totally untouched. aware, awake, alert, quiet, still,Beautiful. Dean, give us something. Give us a song. Well, like I guess that's some serious things to discuss. Well, Sanjay's not here now. But he started the talk and he referred a lot to this ego. And I just want to sort of mention that at the end here. And, you know, what is ego? And then we sort of refer to a body-mind system. And there's an understanding. Consensually that there's a me sitting in a chair, there's a you sitting there, there's all this kind of thing going on. And within this is a bundle of thoughts and the ones that have the I, me, my associated with them refer to this body-mind entity, this individuality, this thing called me.
Well, this is like this is non-duality. And look, Joseph, you said like, ah, you found your centre. Where the fuck is the centre? There is no centre. And there is no central reference point where all these things that I just mentioned are. And you mentioned... Adrian, like energy, everything's energy. Is it not like the same thoughts that describe, I mean, my, are still ego?Energy patterns appearing as thoughts. It could be an energy pattern appearing as a description of this. It doesn't actually matter what it is, but the I, me, my ones seem to have this reference point, this centre point. The back of the head is very common, behind the eyes, in the chest, whatever.
There isn't one. Like there actually isn't one. And so if there isn't one, these energies are describing, who are they describing what to, to who? To who? There are energies appearing. Energies appearing as suffering. Energies appearing as this is dark, this is bad, this is good, this is sad. It goes on and on and on. And they're all in reference to... My story and they're like if everything is energy then there is nothing outside of energy so it's an infinite display a kaleidoscope of different energy patterns appearing as this as this room as this as as bodies chairs thoughts words sound like the whole show is the energy you can't get out of the energy you could say there's nothing outside of the energy field and the energy field what is it appearing in or as it's actually space and the space is empty so the energy in its essence in in its un um um before uh manifest unmanifestin stillness, in the silence, is nothing, is potentiality, is just there.
And then boom, it explodes into potentiality of this energy. Any energy can appear as thoughts, as a me, as a, there is no ego as such. There is no, there is actually, it's even worse than that, it's more dire than any of that. There is no me, there is no you, there is no, there is just what is happening. This is like the Bob, I'd like to just wrap it up by bringing it back to the, like Bob, start the meeting with, start with the fact that you are that. And I'm going to end the meeting with, end with the fact that you are that as well, because there is nothing outside of that.
And in this case, we're describing it as energy. You can describe it any way you want, but for this example, we'll call it energy. That is the energy. And it's an infinite array of energy in colours, in shapes, in sounds and in movement. And it's patterning, shaping, forming, that's right. And it's a constant show. And who or what is it appearing to? No one. Like, it's just the appearance. You think that there's, you know, who's looking at this appearance saying, oh, I'm seeing energy. There is no one seeing energy. There is nothing in front of your eyes but space. And it's not registered in a particular place.
It's just registered.itself. That's why it's called emptying. Look, I don't know what these terms are called, but it's emptiness cognizing, intelligence energy, Bob used to call it, cognizing emptiness. I'm not describing terms from philosophical or religious or spiritual teachings. That's just the bloody experience just exploding out in these words now. And it's everyone's though. It's everything because there's one essence, patterning, shaping, forming, as this expression, as this talk today, as this, and all the story of the past and everything is immediate. The other aspect is the absolute immediacy. There is no doubt about the immediacy. It can't be. Everything is always being registered now. It can't be registered other than now.
The memory can only be registered now. Trauma can only be registered now. The seeing is registered now like it's now. can't be other than now. Never has been, never will be. And amen. Yeah. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. It's reason to celebrate. There might be... No, it might be. I think that might be wrong. But maybe Kat might like a final little word or something, Kat. The final meow. The final meow. She might be frozen. Maybe her...She's just in perpetual smiling mode. God bless her. She's back. Oh, she's back. Okay. Did you want to add a final word? Oh, so, wow, I loved your final thoughts. That was beautiful.
That was brilliant. That's why my smile fell, because, yeah, that's yummy. Yummy. Already here. Already done. No objections. One last question. Ah, by the way. Yes, Kat. Okay. Sorry, one second, Herman. What was your emotions once you got off the plane and visited your family? She hasn't visited the family yet. She's not there yet. No. Apologize. She's still flying. She's still in the middle of the flight. Sorry. Sorry. Just, sorry, last word, Kat. I'll ask next week. What were you going to say, Kat? Yes, just a reminder, and thank you, thank you, Hayman. Just a reminder that next week we're going to hear Jane, Jane Riddle, and that in David, the father was asking questions.
About the role of different substances and stuff. I think Jane will be more than capable of answering those questions from her first-hand experience.as well. Not that there is anyone who didn't have ever any mind-altering substances, and there isn't. There isn't. It's only life. You need to see an expressive journey, love. And so please show up, support Jane, answer questions, have a discussion. Next week and then in a couple of weeks we're going to hear Dean. So that's that. I would be, I'm pretty sure Bob would be really, really happy that the space is still held, even in his absence, although his presence always has that space.
Yes, so thank you. Thank you for coming. Thank you for having us. Thanks, Kat. Thanks, everyone here. Thank you, everyone online.