This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
I'm Michael. Jimmy. T4. Ross. Carl. Link. And. There's. Tanya. Come here. Come.Last week we had a little bit of an issue with the... With the interference, so we're going to keep them apart. No, I don't think it's that. Yeah, they were too much. Okay, so welcome. Welcome, everyone. And as usually invitation stands, anyone would like to give us an introduction in your own words, through your own understanding? James? Anyone? James? Jimmy? Jamie? Ben? Anyone? Well, the basic, you're coming? Okay, so you can sit here or you can swap the chairs. No, no, you stay where you are. Change of perspective. Hello everybody. As always, the message is one without a second what we call non-duality advaita.It's a very, especially the way it was presented by Bob, I've never seen it expressed in such a clear and simple way.
The simplicity of the message can sometimes be its failure though because the mind itself wants to add concepts to everything we hear. You can't get any simpler than one without a second. One, non-duality. So the message is you are already that. We are already whole and complete. This is all there is. This is it. So start with the fact that you're already that.Yeah. Any questions? Well, you know, because it's the nature of the mind to want to come in, yeah, but we're already that, but this, but that, and I guess... If you start and end with that, you realize that the reality is non-dual, sometimes expressed as omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence.
All-present, all-knowing, all-powerful. In that expression of reality, it leavesNothing for any other concept. For you, for me, this idea of us as a separate, independent entity just vanishes. And. It's just a relaxation into what already is, which is this. Which is basically The five senses wide open.The seeing, the hearing, the tasting, the touching, the feeling. But can you trust them? Well, you can trust the experiencing of those. So, no, because the five senses are just the appearance. The appearance is not the reality. That's right. Yeah. The appearance, the feeling, what we see is an appearance. So it's not a matter of trusting or not trusting, but it's a matter of recognizing the pure experiencing.that is the reality.
So we don't know what is being experienced. We don't know the appearance is what it is. But we know that sense of presence, that we are the sense of I am. The experiencing, the feeling, the tasting, touching, not the taster, the feeler, or the felt. That's the dualism.So. I think... And just reviewing Bob's teaching, I don't think there was anybody that was, and it's not a teaching either. Bob was never a teacher. There was nobody that could be taught. He just had a very, very clear message to all of us that we are already there, full stop.There's a temptation to want to go on and expand on what that is.
There really is no need. There's no need. Whatever concepts may appear on this, I read as well. And there's a sense that The sense of the seeker is thatThis needs to be somehow different. This isn't quite it. And that's the concept. And in a lot of other teachings, there is a concept that there is something to get and that there is some future time when... everything's going to fall away and the reality is going to be revealed or the concepts are going to stop or whatever. You notice that there's a subtle, sense of always something to get. Bob's message was so clear because he never, never dangled a carrot in front of us.
Never. He would sit there and listen to your stories, but he would just come back, come back to the fact that this is it. This is it. It doesn't matter the concepts that are coming up. It doesn't matter the feelings that are in the body that are, oh, there's a contraction here. That's it too. But what about, yep, that come back to the fact is a very, very clear message. That whatever is appearing is only that. And there is only that. We're not the body. We're not the mind. We're not the concepts.We are that reality, that omniscience, omnipresence, omniscience. Omnipotence. We are that, and it's beautiful.
What's wrong with right now unless you add a concept to that? And even adding a concept, there's nothing wrong either. It's only the energy of belief that goes into the concepts that tells me I'm not that. Oh, there's still something that needs to be cleared up or some sort of purification.It's just a belief. It's just a belief. We as that reality, because we are all powerful, we can dream ourselves into separation as well too, into feeling that we're not that, we're just this body, mind with its problems. And that is that as well too. That's the infinite, all-powerful, it can know itself as it is, as the reality, or it can dream itself into separation.
It's still only that.So I guess... The message was, and the message always was from Bob, is just an invitation. If you like your story and you like the dream of separation and you want to keep it and keep seeking, by all means. It doesn't change the fact that you are already that. If the story of separation gets too much, there can be a relaxation back into the wholeness. Not that the wholeness is ever lost. It's never, ever lost. It's just dreaming. It's imagination. We have that power. We're dreaming. All of this, this appearance is our creation. And it's wonderful. And the stories that go on and our life stories, it's wonderful, you know.
But we've never left that omnipresence. We've never left that omniscience, never left that omnipotence. I can't. Where could it go? Other than imagination. And Nisigadatta said, the only thing that can ever bother us, that can ever trouble us, is our imagination, which is a concept. Concepts that come up and tell me, you know, I'm not good enough.My life's a mess. I've got all these problems. The concept is never, ever the reality. The concept, you know, the concept fire can't burn your mouth. You can't quench your thirst with the word water. Yet we take these concepts on and we take them to be the real. This concept, I am the body, is a concept.in your experience, in the experiencing, the body's an appearance.
The experiencing of that open presence awareness that we are There is no space, no time. There's just the wide open awareness in which There is nothing wrong. So I don't need to keep expanding on this message because it's very clear. Whoever's, you know, whatever seeming body minds are looking out through whatever that world is through the phone or in this room, realize that They're all just appearances. There's nothing going on here. There is only that. And it's experiencing itself as these many lovely pattern and forms. And there may be a taking itself as being limited by the form or there may be an openness and an understanding of its true nature, of our true nature.
Either is fine. The invitation's there for a relaxation into what is alreadySo that's the message of non-duality. Whatever is appearing on the experiencing is that. There is no movement away. There is no losing or gaining this message. there's just an appearance of concepts on that awareness. And there's a seeming believing for some of us that the concepts are the real. And what Bob and I think Nisa Gadada really pointed out well is is the falseness of these concepts. We've mistaken the map for the territory. We're dining out on the menu instead of the food.And that's the cause of our seeming suffering because, you know, there's no nourishment in a menu.
It's just, you know, leaves you. These are very unsatisfied and, you know, that's the meaning of the Buddha's original term dukkha, which is a kind of unsatisfactoriness with life because we're dining out, we're eating cardboard instead of dining out on a beautiful meal. And the beautiful meal is this. It's every moment of the pure experiencing, whatever is appearing, you know,in a dropping of those concepts. As it is. Just as it is. Nothing added. Non-duality. What can you add to one? You can't get much more simpler. And I guess I was listening to Bob the other day and he just made it clear again that really This is so simple that we just keep stepping over it.
It's the nature of the mind to divide and we want to complicate and add concepts, questions. Yes, but...And what can happen is a kind of dropping of those concepts when you realize the concept is not the reality, that there's a kind of relaxation into this. Which isn't done by any entity. It's just a natural relaxation. It's a natural state of what we all are. Without a concept. And in the seeing of the invalidation of those concepts, then the concepts can continue to appear in whatever form they appear because we're not doing the concepts. We're not the thinker of the thoughts. We're not the feeler of the feelings.They're all just happening.
So you're never going to think yourself out of this. You're never going to feel yourself out of this. You're never going to be able to release the contraction that's feeling or quieten down the disturbing thoughts. Just a natural relaxation. Into that natural state. Realizing that nothing has to change. That's the biggest realization. And I'm sureBob is the only one that I've seen with that message. Nothing has to change. It's about every other teacher I listen to, there's a subtle, when this happens, even if the message is subtle, there's a subtle that there's going to be falling away or something like that. Bob's message was so clear because this is it.
There's nothing has to change. Nothing. You are already. Is there anybody in this room or out there that isn't present and aware?I'm hearing, yeah, that's it. There's a natural presence awareness that has been with us this whole time. And it's so ordinary. That it's easy for the mind to just walk right over it and just miss it. And we can all...recognize, I don't know, is there anybody here that doesn't recognize that presence awareness? In the immediacy of this. So obvious. It doesn't matter what concepts are coming up. Doesn't matter the feelings. We are all already that start with that, finish with that, end of story.
Beautiful. Yeah, magnificent. Go on. Oh, nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. No, it was... Beautiful. And the final statement, really, really kind of recognize. Nothing has to change. Nothing needs to change. It's a recognition of what is already so. There is no becoming. There is no doing. There is no practice. There is nothing that can get you. As an imagined character to realizing that you are not an imagined character. It's impossible. It's not difficult. I have those individual calls and very often the theme that constantly reoccurs. Yes, you know, I understand intellectually, but it is so difficult. It is so difficult. I remember times and then I don't remember.
It's not.It's not difficult. It's impossible. It's impossible. You know, if you have the character, like a cartoon character in a little book, and the book is about the character, how is this character realize that he is not in the book? Absurd it can only imagine it that's not possible it is not possible to become space like awareness starting from the dream character I am the separate entity person and I will do something to become the space like awareness or the whole field of consciousness nonsensical it can't happen The recognition is that in the direct experience, without imagining myself to be the form, I am already the consciousness.
I am already the consciousness in which the room arises and the form arises and the thoughts arising and the habits, maybe a bad habits or a good habits. Like again, like Jamie was saying, nothing needs to change. The realization doesn't guarantee that overnight the dream character will become a saint and will never have a bad negative thought or any thought. That's nonsensical also. The dream character is just an avatar, is just a vehicle for the life, pure and saint already.pure and clean and like clean energy expressing true so if the character is like the example i like because it's so uncompromising and bob always encouraged to look at nature the spanish bull and the red blanket the character is conditioned to charge when it sees the red blanket have the volcano of anger so that same life pure and unconditioned goes through that animal and charges so the recognition that you are the pure life you are not the character doesn't mean that you're going to become a saint overnight And still the recognition, the fact of the recognition, takes away some of the charge.
Because now out of the 100% of attention, it's only part of it following the charge. And the rest is just resting. It's just relaxing. Relaxation, the natural state in which the body caters for itself. When the thought is required, it arises. When the action, digestion, sweating, shivering, all whatever the body requires is arising because it's already programmed. The body and the environment are one in constant flux, constant communication. There is no one to worry about it. There is no need to imagine the entity that is in charge, in control.that is a doer of anything. This imagination of the interface of the middleman between the environment and the body, taking care of controlling it, is just a piece of program.
The same program which, when you ask a question to Siri or chat GPT, will ask you, can I help you with something else? It also says I. But is there anyone who can help you with something else? The same interface, the narrative, the commentary that this machinery is equipped with will ask you, can I help you with something else? Can I do anything else? Can I get you a better position or better partner or better career? Or can I get you something to get out of boredom, more pleasure? This is the same voice as your chat GPT or whatever the program in the computer. There is no one there, even though it says I.
There is no miniature person doing any of it. So when we say... When we do this, this happens. When we believe the devil is real, the devil seems real. But there is no we, even then. Even believing, you know, even feeding off the menu, there's no we. Of course, it's just a program. Is just realizing that even that goes on autopilot, believing in devil.believing in anything at all, unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reasons, habitual acceptance of something. That the wall you can't walk through or there is a gravity habitual habituated there is no one believing it the narrative says no there is a little eye but direct experience in the direct experience those charged beliefs are just part of the appearance in the consciousness, in the knowingness, in the awareness that you are.
So the question is, now, this is, Nisargadatta would call it the last desire or the most potent desire. What do I really want? Do I want that next relationship? Do I want to be saint or do I want to be viewed as a superior, a teacher or realized or any of that nonsense? Or the ultimate freedom from wanting or needing anything to be any different than as it is. Because that is the longing of the heart, realizing that there is a pure perfection already in this moment, including the dreadful past, drama and trauma and all of it, that arises as a thought, that doesn't arise as a fact.
Even as we know the relations from people who survived wars and they were in the battlefields and they could see their friends being blown away and the limbs flying up and high. Even then, there was no drama and trauma, it was just responding to the moment as it is on autopilot. Nobody could think it through, even as you drive your car and you quickly put on the brake when something comes up. Thought is too slow. You would be that half a second too slow. It happens on autopilot, recognizing that there is no one doing anything at all. And resting your case. Resting as awareness. It isn't even done.
As Jamie was saying, there is nothing that needs to be done because there is no one who could possiblydo anything. Recognition is spontaneous and that spontaneous recognition may arise in the response to him speaking or Tanya or anyone else. We're going to invite everyone to actually bring up those frequency of clarity to invite the spontaneous recognition. Going through the, you know, like through the echo. Because there is non-doing. In the non-doing, that spontaneous recognition arises. There is no need for any doing because there is no one who could possibly do anything. The dream character that you may imagine to be, in the morning you may imagine to be one role, another role in the afternoon or in the evening or five minutes later.
You may be miserable, poor little human in one point, or you may be just a fine specialist or the expert in your field or a husband or a daughter or a dream character at night or in the fantasy. See how the content of the dreaming changes all the time. We can all collectively imagine life in the moon or... Europe, whatever it is, that is a dream. That's a dream within the dream. Every thought is another dream. And if there is a dream character within that thought, that is an appearance.The dream air, the dream air, it's no such thing. It's the dream ink, just like it's raining.
There is no rain there. There is no shiner of a sun. It's all just process ink, singular ink. Dream ink is going on. No ink of the dream ink is going on. No one doing a thing. And recognize ink. There is no one who is realized or recognized. There is no one who is enlightened. If there is someone who says, I am realized and you are not, laugh them in the face. Oh, what a dream. What a nightmare. Because if I believe I'm realized, shit, you know, I'm going to shit my pants and I'm going to lose it tomorrow. If there is an I who got something, the next thing is not going to get it.
It's going to forget it.Unless there is no one there, there is no freedom. If there is still imagination of some agency having some things to do, they can get it wrong. So really the ultimate freedom, and this is the last desire as Nisargadatta would say, if you are obsessing about resolving the family conflict, or getting a partner, or resolving your tax issue, or your cancer, or whatever it is, if that is a mental obsession, realize that that obsession also arises in the consciousness that is completely free and indifferent. That it completely doesn't mind whatever arises, including a drama and trauma and response and spiritual bypass and all the other stuff.
And that is your essential nature. That which is already free, present, and witnessing whatever arises. And doesn't mind unconditionally accepting all that arises and paradoxically then the dream character and whatever the dream character goes through is not going to be any less juicy but it's going to be much less painful But again, as Jamie said, even to use the word it is going to be suggests that it is going to be later. No, it is only now. There is no later.That is just now, just now if you realize that that presence that you are doesn't mind whether it is too hot or too cold in the room.
It may register it. It may attend to it, flip the heater or put the jumper. By the way, I have blankets and everything if anyone ever needs one. But it doesn't mind. The space-like awareness, it doesn't mind. It lets the dream character, lets the response arise. So it is not that, oh yeah, I'm going to be passive and if someone slaps me in the face, I'm going to just... No. There is no I to do anything. Response will be, will present itself as conditioned. None of my business space has no involvement, no investment. And dream character, what a privilege to be the life equipped in the pair of eyes to see the beauty of this moment and a pair of ears to hear the beauty of this moment and the body that can sense that temperature too hot or too cold or just perfect.
That sensations are absolutely and completely here. This is not about this association and seeing it from the fly on the wall perspective that this is not I. It is all of it. It's included. The body is included. Sensations are included. But with that inclusion,awareness is also included so when there is a point of devastation the subtle joy of the capacity to feel so strongly is also included it's not excluded i'm not exclusively the dream character the costume the world is included And I think this is enough. And we have a few messages of good morning and love messages for everyone who are here. Lots of love from Mitra and from Catherine.
Simone says, let the thought ride on the breath. Inspire, expire. Just breath that thought out. And this is from Sailor Bob. Happy non-doing. Okay, so. Now, the invitation again, contribute and bring up that is thousands aspects which Bob has brought into the picture in which we could look at that beautiful simple message of love and appreciation for the pure presence that is never not here. And it can't be, you know, it can't be obscured in a way, but it can't be undone. It cannot be here.no matter how strong the mental obsession about something or the other might be, the being is still first. Without the being, without the consciousness, no mental obsession can ever be present.
And I like to call it mental obsession because it kind of brings it down a little bit. It takes the, because we naturally, again, the dream character is so inclined to be taken by that train of thought and experiencing and so enchanted. By the drama and the more dramatic the more enchanting but when you see it for what it is it's just an obscuration it's just a mental obsession and you don't love it any less actually i appreciate it even higher i see it for what it is and i still say wow How convincing! How brilliantly presented! How real! Politics, yum! Medicine, goodness! Sickness is family dramas, wow!
Wow! What a ride! What a ride! It's never still, is it? Up and down, up and down. Always the leaders. Yeah. Yeah. I really have nothing to add to that.Come on. I've got nothing to add either. I'm blank. It's empty still. I mean, I have had like the power of the mind, though, and following the mind is just, it is staggering. And even when you recognize it as being the mind, I mean, I love that sharing that that's it too. That is that. And it's only wanting something to be different, chasing something else, chasing a different state. And it is so enticing to go down that path.
It's just that, so that's it too. That's tough. That's tough, that story character to get and to accept. It's just that's it too. Absolutely, yeah. It's just part of the landscape. Jamie, yeah. You mentioned the power of the mind. I disagree. What power does the mind have? Can the mind actually do anything? Can the thought I see see? Can the thought I feel feel? The only power the mind has is the power that we as reality attribute to it. Bob used to use the example of the hot poker. We being reality, you're the fire. You put the poker into the fire.It can get red hot and it can burn like the fire.
It takes on the attributes of the fire. But take it out of the fire, what power to burn does the poker have then? And because we attribute, I hear this so much, oh, the mind is so powerful, you know, and it has no power of its own without that intelligence energy. And this understanding is that we're not the mind, that we take that. That poker is taken out of the fire and allowed to cool down, it can still be a poker, but it's not going to burn. And it's the same thing with the mind. Whenever we believe that the mind is powerful, it can still create suffering.
The understanding is that the thoughts on their own, because the mind is just thoughts, it's concepts. We string the concepts together and we create stories out of the concept. And the energy of belief goes into those concepts. And the energy of belief is coming from the reality, from what we are. It gives the mind the seeming power that we believe it has, but its only power is from our belief. Once that interest and attention is withdrawn from the concepts, we see that the concepts aren't the thing. The mind can do whatever it's like. It has no power. What concept?What power does any concept have? They're useful tools.
Concepts are useful for pointing out things in reality, like we're using concepts now to point to something. But the concept that the mind is powerful is just false. It really is. It has no power without that intelligence that we are feeding it with its interest and attention. And what...seems to happen and what has happened here is that interest and attention goes out into the whole manifestation and really it's just an interest in what's happening rather than what could be happening and what did happen and maybe and you know and the The mind as a tool is very, very useful, but it's not powerful. We are the power.
Just even calling it that mind makes it, objectifies it. It becomes an object that then something identifies with it as being an object, but it doesn't exist. It's mental preoccupation or thinking, but it's not an object. Yeah, I was... Anita, you go. And there's the thing is all of that happens within the present moment. I just really feel great power in whenever my mind tries to create a story. There's only now. There's only ever now. Ever was, ever will be there, and that doesn't even exist either because it's timeless. It's highly creative. There's this constant movement and changing, but it only happens in the now.
It can never happen anywhere, even the recalling of the past.imagination in the future or whatever is now. And that's why I feel the creative process is a very interesting instinct in this experience, right? Because creativity, I mean, all of those things, past, present, future, all happen in the now, right? And that the creative thing is quite separate to memory and projection into the future, wish fulfillment. So creativity has a, you know, that presupposes that there's somebody or something happening, has a creativity, but the experiencing of the present moment is highly creative. You know, because there's ever-changing, ever-constant movement. And the other thing is about the concept of I-self, the small I.
When you realise that there is no other, If there is no time, there is no distance. How can there be distance? If there is no distance, how can there be another? It cannot be. We are all that. The furniture, the other, you know, it's not like we all as humans are that. No, there is no separation. And we are the space that that occurs in. That is such a profound, that's such a profound unfolding.or, you know, whatever it is, you know, that are seeing that. And that means that it is ever, ever flourishing, ever new, and you don't own it. The small you doesn't own it.
The freedom and the end of suffering that brings is really quite profound. You know, this experience here is... Yeah, there's no... No. There's one. Yeah. Just one more thing. It's about in the present moment there isn't an acknowledgement or a knowing or that stuff. It's a quality, knowingness, experiencing, you know, or... It's a quality. There's nobody that knows. Yes. You know, it's a mess. It's a knowingness. Experiencing and, you know, that thing. Anyway, so let's just let you go.These discussions usually start with the mention of Advaita, Sanskrit, a not, dwa, to, Advaita. And then, you know, Dwight, this... That I need to call the self.
Meaning this cell. Is known as the Atman.But then to confuse things, there's the Paramatman, the Supreme Self. At the same time. And that sort of confuses the mind because in the different Sanskrit texts, there's this differentiation. So then the thinker gets to work on that. Let's go back to the concept of not to. Two things. It's only a mistaken identity. So like if you use the example of the snake and the rope, you know, being the feeling of separation, of being an individual is you see the snake, you know, and it's pointed out that the snake is nothing other than a rope. It's harmless. There's not two things there.
There's not a snake and a rope. It's non-dual. There's just the reality. So dividing it into Atman and Para-Atman, it's come back to not-tunis again. They're just more sort of concepts that get overlaid on that.whether you're seeing it's like saying that there's a little self a small s self and the biggest self it's just it's the same sort of concept there is only this the self the one reality are you seeing the snake or are you seeing the rope It's not two things. It's the one reality, and it's just a matter of a sort of perception of what it's been seeing. But come back to what I said originally.
How much more simpler can you get the non-duality, not two, one without a second? The mind loves to chew on the different concepts of para Brahman, Brahman, Atman, three gunas, you know, and it can divide and divide forever. And a lot of those philosophies will leave you, you know, chewing on these concepts and what's the difference between Atman and para Atman and Just in the dropping of all that, what are you left with? You're left with just the reality, which is non-dual, one without a second, without a concept.I think part of the agitation that can happen for people trying to understand this experience and what the pointers are, Shinzen Young talks about, you can say it's all one, it's nothing, there's nothing there, just be, just rest.
Let it go. Just be here right now. And the most refined or the most subtle way to do that is just silence, to say nothing. It's just in the silence. Just be silent. And then, of course, what happens is the mind in which we've been talking about the thoughts and the concepts. They spark up. But I'm here. But what's this? What do you mean? I'm here. I experience this. This is coming up, this creation, as you put it, Anita. It's just, it keeps on coming up. It wants to be satiated. It wants to be. Talk to, wants to be understood and wants to be met.
And so for many people who are new to this, and there's a lot of beautiful, beautiful concepts pointing towards this, and in Zen they call it, you know, a gate. Or the gateless gate, right? It's not really a gate, but it's a gate. And I think one of the ways to experience what's happeningin the room is to see each of these pointers as a gate, as a possibility for just that rest to happen, just to step back to happen. Jamie put it beautifully with the poker in the fire. The poker doesn't get hot without being empowered by the fire. Some of the words that I like to use for that is to blend with, to fuse.
I can not. To identify, I empower by the consciousness, the consciousness empowers by joining with by identifying, by putting power. So you're right, the mind doesn't have the power. What a fallacy. Yeah, it has no independent nature. So it's the consciousness or the observing that, the attention. Interest, yeah. The interest drawn to the drama. That goes in that direction. Or the energy, Bob used to say, the energy of belief. Yeah. The energy of belief. I believe this to be true, I empower, and so it will be so. And so for those listening that feel some of that agitation, And it's very difficult.It's very difficult. See if some of these concepts, some of these offerings, these gates might just, might just subtly start to have you aware.
That concepts are happening, that thoughts are passing through. And there is something observing. There's observing. One of Ramana Maharshi's beautiful pointers was stay with the sense that I am. The sense that there's an identity. Because the consciousness, consciousness is...is separate from the sense. That there is a person, an identity. So the sense that there's a self, the sense that I'm a person, the sense that
allows this starting to draw back. Oh, there is a sense that I'm here, but it's a sense. And that too is a concept. And in the light of conscious observing, you start to see, oh, that's a concept. And everything after in reference to the self is also a concept.
Oh, also a concept. And so there might just be this subtle drawing. This resting, the let go that everyone has been talking about. How do I relax into it? It may just... There's a really good example. This is what... Take a mic. What a visualisation that helped me. When I was a kid... We used to have these little Chinese finger traps. It was a little cane thing and you'd put your fingers into it like that and then you'd, ah, you're stuck, you can't get it off. And then the harder you struggled, the tighter it would get. But just in the relaxation, it would just fall off on its own.
And whenever I've noticed a getting caught back into the concepts, because there's aif there's a getting caught in the concepts again, there's a natural striving of, I want to get out of these concepts, they're uncomfortable, and there's that natural striving which just pulls you more into the concepts. But in that sort of visualisation of just, Craving, aversion, immersion, the craving towards the present. That's the trap. Yeah, that's that seeking, that striving that keeps you caught in the concepts. Keeps you wrestling. They're just the natural. And it's a non-doing. It's not a doing, it's a non-doing. It's just a seeing in the immediacy that, just this and in that moment you're out of it.
And I think an example Bob used to say that there's a kind of, you could see, See the, what's the word?Can you pick any word? You see the agitation can only be noticed from the point of non-agitation. Yes. And there's this allow yourself not to fix it. Allow yourself not to resolve. Allow. Allow. There's this tension between... One substance, so I must be all of this, and I also am not all of this. And it's very enticing, this back and this forth, right, that's happening. So they talk about when sitting in meditation, this gap between I'm meditating and now I'm not. Now I enter into the world.
Oh, there's a separate, oh, I was meditating and now I'm not. So meditation in this metaphor could be considered not being, right, or not drawing into the form. And then I stop meditating and I go about my day in the world. And so there's the form and the no form. And so we get rid of the distinction, the blend. We get rid of the distinction between no self and self. Oh, so it's all. It's all this. There's no distinction. It's not just meditating.All arising. So stop trying to resolve that. Stop trying to get somewhere. Any attempt to try and resolve or resist or push, it's all predicated on the belief in an I.
Right. Fundamentally, it all comes back to I'm a doer. Right. Find the doer. Like Kat was saying, I'm enlightened and you're not. Separation. Or I get it and you're not. That's predicated on a reference point of me. Yeah, and have a look for that me. That's it. In the immediate experiencing. Look, because the me survives in time and space. It's a created character that moves through time, that's remembered. It's dead. It's based on the past. Yeah. Or an imagined future. In that relaxation. That I mentioned before of the puzzle coming off, which is in the immediacy that happens and in that just brief investigation of,There's nothing here.
Yes. Thoughts aren't real. There's nothing. The me cannot survive that scrutiny. It cannot stand up to that sort of investigation. And then, you know, maybe the me starts up again. But who cares? You've seen it. Yeah. And if it becomes problematic and uncomfortably again, let's keep having another look. We've seen it, seen that it's not there. There's a sense that it's being constructed. Mike. Yeah. There's a sense that it's being constructed. All this phenomena being constructed and the self being constructed, being put together. It's not a noun, it's a verb, it's a selfing, because the selfing is a mental process that seems to happen that it's like the spinning.
Fan that is just blades, but when it's spinning fast enough, it looks like a solid independent structure. And in the way the mind is generating concepts, that's why there's so much thinking occurs, because to feel like this process of selfing, to feel like an independent entity, takes a lot of generation of energy of belief and thinkings and in the actual immediateSeeing that. Wow, there's nothing there. Then once you realise that it's your parents putting your presents under the Christmas tree, Christmas and not Santa Claus, once you've seen, you know, we all remember that moment as a kid when we first discovered that Santa wasn't real.
Could we ever go back? We might still... Celebrate Christmas and we talk about Christmas and I hope I get Coach Santa brings me good presents this year. But once you've seen it, you can never go back into believing. And it's the same, it's just the investigation. It's just nothing there. It's just...It's like Nisargadatta said, my emptiness is full, my silence sings. There's nothing, there's nothing there. And we've all seen that. There's an absolute knowing of that. And that's the removal of that idea of the concepts of the poker from the fire. Poker's going to stay there. The thoughts are going to stay. The selfing's still going to happen.
But there's... There's no more investment. Once it's been seen, who cares what the manifestation does? Just enjoy the show. It's a really good show. It's very entertaining. And look, I was thinking today driving in, I go, this has to be just a manifestation of dream because... You look back through so-called history of the human race, this is the most interesting time to ever have been manifest in form with what is happening with technology and the world and that at the moment. You know, it's just a, there's never been a more fascinating time to be enjoying this show, whatever this manifestation is. We don't want it.
It's an appearance. Who cares? But it's really. I find it immensely entertaining anyway, you know, and once now that that concept.of being a separate independent entity that's travelling and having to navigate this world has gone. It's just a show. That's the relaxation of like let be what be. Let come what comes, let go what goes. Makes no difference. Be like a newborn baby. When a child is born, someone at the door might be Tony, without a word-based notion of I or me or any concepts, and you look at that baby, does it appear as if that child doesn't exist or doesn't respond to what's happening in the environment?
It all just happens naturally. The child has no internal yet. The word hasn't been born yet in the child. It's just unborn, this mind that doesn't exist. The wonder in that child's eyes, you can see them. Wow. That's it. And that's why Bob reminded us, in the beginning was the word. That's when all the trouble started, if you like. Yeah, the terrible twos. That's it. It's mine. Yeah, that's it. No, it's the first word we learned. Belief in the concepts and belief in a separateness. Oh, I am I, therefore I am. Separate. And I am I creates you are you. That's it. That's the separation always.
And there's the invitation.There's conflict and other beliefs. But as you say, the mind, the word we use is short, is a concept in itself. What is your actual experience? Just like a newborn baby, what is your actual experience if you can drop the, you don't have to do anything, when the belief in the word and the concepts drop, it's just this. It's what's happening. It's not like the body won't respond or something won't happen. It just happens naturally. And then you realise, oh. None of this thinking shit is necessary for anything. No. Because there's no I and I'm not doing it. That's it. And there never has been.
There never will be. Beautiful. I have, that was, that's it. Goodness. I hope this actually answered the questions. I have a few questions from the community. So Catherine says, how did you come to this understanding without seeking? So I'll answer that one first. Nobody can come to this understanding through seeking because you are born with it. Just like they were saying, you are born knowing that you are. You are born with that pure presence. Seeking makes you forget and lose it. Because there is a presumption that you are incomplete, that you are separate, that you are something or the other. So you continue.Then you're seeking for completeness, for love, for approval.
Then you seek for adding, accumulating, amassing, and seeking goes on and on and on and on and on. So through seeking, you are asserting being separate entity, incomplete, deficient, not good enough, not clear. So, yes, how did you come to this understanding without seeking? You do not come to the understanding. The realization, the recognition is spontaneous that there is no you who needs to have an understanding. The realization, the spontaneous recognition that life goes on, everything arises within that field of knowing to no one. There is no self to which the world arises. You can see there is a different imagined or seeming self in the dream, different imagined or seeming self in the fantasy, big self, small self, medium self, whatever the self.
But all of them are arising spontaneously and naturally in the field of knowing that you are so the realization is spontaneous and nothing can be found through seeking i mean you know if you lose your pen you can find it for seeking but this is within the dream But no realization can be found through seeking. Realization comes when the seeking stops.when the mind relaxes and the seeking stops. Realization is spontaneous. And I have a couple of more on the same topic. None of you have had this understanding without looking for it, or have you? None of you have had this understanding without looking for it, or have you?
This is a question. Yes, exactly. None of us could ever have any understanding found by looking for it. Seeking happens within the consciousness, just like eating happens in consciousness, just like sweating happens in consciousness, and none of it is you doing. It is and the desire is arising. And again, seeking for approval as a child, seeking for a partner as a teenager, seeking for a pleasure, seeking for money, for safety, for security, for friendships, seeking for spiritual understanding, enlightenment, whatever it is, is the activity, seeking. Activity arising in the consciousness that you are you are not doing any of it taking credit this is I me seeking is the misconception there is no one doing any of it there is no one doing sweating sweating happens digestion happens digesting happens so this is and the third one and callyou go the third one if you were already free you would not have been at any of Bob meetings that is not a question that is an assertion and that is a that is again a misconception because there is an idea that there is a you that can be bound or free and they can have a choice to be in one location or the other.
If you are a consciousness, then Bob's meeting arises within you, not you within Bob's meetings with the story backing that, oh, I am the doer and I have a choice to show up and be somewhere present. See the questions and thank you for it. Thank you for all those questions because there are common questions coming from the position of being a dream character and we love those questions and we deeply appreciate them because we can deconstruct them and we can show how the place from which the question arises is the misconception. It arises from the false predicament that there is a separate self that is going to arrive at something through seeking, and that separate self chooses to come to the group of seekers to keep looking for something to find there, while the direct experience is quite the opposite.
Direct experience is I amhere this is the direct experience without the backing story that I am here because I was born and I came here and blah blah blah no direct experiences I am here the backstory arises within the consciousness justifying I am here and the content of here is changing The content of here, in the morning it was a bedroom, right now it is this lunchroom, later on it may be yet something else. The content is changing, but the direct experience is I am here. And even to say I am, it says that I'm referring to something, the body-mind which has the eyes, ears.
So the point in consciousness that is acknowledging of being here, I am not this vehicle in which I am here. When I'm in the car, I'm on the road, but I'm not the car. I'm not the vehicle through which the consciousness notices the content of the here. So I think that that is it, the three questions on the seeking. So, Carl, would you like to get into it? Yeah. Look, my heart bleeds for those people who ask those questions. You know, when I was 17, I read something by Martin Buber called I and Thou, his book. He was a Jewish mystic. And the first page I read, I could read at that stage where I was seven.and I couldn't understand a word that was being said.
It was all non-dual, yeah? And it started me off on my search. Yeah. And that went on and it was painful. And it went on and it went on and it went on. And obviously I'm talking about the dream character. Yes. I'm identifying with the dream character when I say this, okay? So this went on and on and on. And I met Bob when I was in my 50s or late 50s, late 50s, middle 50s. And I came to Bob for about three years. And I still kept on searching. I went to Douglas Harding in England. I went to Ramesh Balshik in India. I've read thousands of books.
Well, hundreds of books. Anyway, literally, literally, literally, hundreds of books. And, you know, while I was with Bob, I got to, after three years, I just decided, look, this is crazy. I don't want to do this any longer. This is so painful. I've got to drop it. It's like a disease, like an addiction, you know. I've got to stop it.And I couldn't drop it. And there was a point where I came this week, and this was the week I was going to walk out. And then it was the following week, and then it was the following week. I still kept on coming. And I don't know, I was sitting over there, and Bob was sitting up here somewhere, and Bob said to me, he says, I don't know what I said to him, but I say he was angry.
You know, that's all he spoke. He says, how many times have I got to tell you? He says, there's nothing to get. And there's nobody to get it. And it told me over. And I actually thought, I've been coming here for three years and doing this and doing that. And I was on the point of, and I thought, okay, this is it. And I sort of, on the point of standing up and then...And there's nobody to get it. And there was nobody there. There was nobody there. And I just sat there for the rest of the evening and for the next few months while the story of this dream started to collapse.
Okay? But, you know, I still don't deny that objects, you know, they're just as much as, just as important as subjects. In fact, they're one, aren't they? This is just as important as anything else. And there's a wonderful... Feeling about the objects now, they don't matter. Nothing matters. You know, that's wonderful. In the final crunch, nothing matters. And, you know, so, as I said, my heart bleeds for searchers, you know. Yeah. I don't know whether that helps or... That was beautiful, Cole. That was beautiful. Thank you. I think you were going to say this one too.Look, having worked in healthcare for most of my life, the greatest suffering is in mental health where people believe in the self, that there's a self that's suffering.
And that is the greatest state of suffering. But also suffering has within it the kernel of potential for complete transformation. Yes. So the belief in self and the focus down on the individual and the individual's experiencing and all that thing is a thing that leads us directly to suffering. What is suffering manifesting? It's just a qualification. I think there was a question before about, you know, how can you ever come to this understanding without seeking or... In the story of me, although there's always been a subtle seeking my whole life, but the idea of me had become so dysfunctional and so unworkable that in that total dysfunction of this idea of me there was a spontaneous collapse of realizing that I can't do this like I've totally failed at my life I've let my family down I've destroyed my whatever this ismany years ago this is the first glimpse into the reality that there was just a spontaneous you know rock bottom of i give up like a throwing my hands in the air and go fuck it all and in that was just a spontaneous falling away and a feeling of great relief and of course it wasn't long before the me came back in to claim what was experienced it comes back in oh i've got this thing you know i'm going to go and teach people and you know okay and it comes back but that was it was like catching a cold or something so there was no looking i wasn't looking for any reality or anything it's just that the me like what you said had become so suffering and dysfunctional that there was a spontaneous collapse and a quietening down of all of that.
And I didn't understand what that experience was. I had no background in any of this sort of information. But that started a seeker then because I go, oh, I want that back, whatever that was. And then I become a vegetarian. I started
meditating and become an acupuncturist and I did all the spiritual things going, you know, I've got to work really hard to get back to that. And that actually intensified the suffering. It was, I can't, by the time I met Bob, I was in such a shattered state. I go, I've done everything. I'm like, I've got a spiritual job now. I'm meditating. I eat only vegetables.
And I'm like, never suffered so much. And this is just awful. And I couldn't stop. And it wasn't until. Bob just sort of put a stop to all of that. And how did you do that? Because everything you just described is the belief that you're a doer. Yeah, I know. I've got to do this. I've got to get it back. I did believe that this is what I had to do. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. I didn't realise that that piece that was felt was the absence of the door. That's it. So the door also comes back, I've got to get that back and I'm going to read all these books and listen to all these things I've got to do to get that back.
And that was the... And it was cutting off the circulation in my fingers.And because the striving was so, in a sense, looking back, I didn't do any of that. I didn't do any of the seeking. It's just what happened in the story of me. And we all have that sort of story. But while you're in it, the story is real. And it's like, you know, I've got to get this thing. I can totally relate to it. Just one more video, one more book, one more, like this, I'm going to get it that time. And it's just, it's a relief and meeting Bob was like, sit down.
Yeah. It's already, you know, and it's just a kind of relief. Yeah. In that. So there is, there was never a kind of seeker here at all, but there can seem to be one in the story of me, in the story of time. But the realisation was when this was seen that it's always been this way. And I laid down on my bed. It must have been six hours I laughed. I felt like somebody had played the worst practical joke on me. All the beliefs that had gone into this me as a seeker with all these problems. And then that relaxation happened. It was all spontaneous.
It was just such a cosmic journey.It's like there never was that seeking me. It's always been this way. And so, you know, whether, that's what I said before, whether there's a feeling of seeking there now or feeling of relaxation, it's all that. Nothing, nothing needs to change. The mind has trouble to accept that because the nature of the mind to do that. But I tell you, from the experience in here, that was the realisation. And I never got that anywhere else. All I got from all the other seeking I did was practices and... Purifications and you know when you do this and the mind and then you look you know and just kept me on that hamster wheel for a long time and there was something about Bob when I first met him that I just trusted him and I believe it was like it's like your granddad he's not gonna he's not bullshitting you yeah he looks in the eye there yeah you're you start with the fact you are already there what you're seeking You already are.
How about this? Bob never told you anything you didn't already know. No. Bob is you. Well, that was exactly... You are Bob. There is no difference. There is only one. There is no duality and non-duality. Bob was always saying that. Yeah.Oh, shit. That's, there's no difference. No. It doesn't matter what mouth it comes out of. No. It doesn't matter where it's expressed. But there's no individual. None of this is personal. And in a lot of ways, the seeking was very sweet. Like there's nothing that needs to be, in the story of me, there's nothing that needs to be changed. All of that seeking in its way was beautiful.
And at the time... That was the experiencing of it and all that sort of striving. But, yeah, it's all fine. I don't know. Perfect, just the way it is. Yeah. Perfectly being expressed. And we are experiencing. Not the experiencer. Yeah. Not the experienced. We are not an object. The mind can't grasp that. The mind doesn't use it because the mind works in objects, pairs of opposites, objectifies. It's all it can do. It's fine. It's the tool. It's the limitation. But you know it. You know it. You don't need the mind. When you're born as a baby, conceptless, without an idea of an I or a me, there's experiencing.
What I noticed when that sense of being the doer dropped away,Because there's a feeling of, well, who's going to run my life? How am I going to pay my bills? But just at the right time, the intelligence is so beautiful that a just thought will appear in your mind. So you better pay that electricity bill. You go on, you go, it's time to be paid. You're not always thinking, oh, I'm going to pay that. Like everything that needs to be known or needs to be acted upon will just spontaneously arise in consciousness. Exactly the right time. You don't need to be there. The action will come, the right thought will come at the right time.
In fact, that having to feel like you've got to navigate your life is the impediment that causes the issues of the blocks. When you just let life flow, when life just flows, the right actions and the right thoughts appear. All will be done for you is an old way, an expression, I think, from the Bible or something. But you are not you that you think you are. You are not this little mini me. All is just happening. It's just a way of saying to those who still don't quite get that there is no you. There's no one to get it. It's just happening. Everybody, you can't relax.
Please relax. It's a big dance. The universe is just dancing. I have a question here. Jamie, this is for you. This is a...Again, from Catherine, from the community. Jamie, you said the seeking was sweet. And also, I'll just say this, Catherine. I never met anyone in this room who would actually confess that they came here to persist the identity of seeker. Even if there was a seeking and someone come here because they identify as a seeker, they come here to stop, to stop being a seeker. No one wants to be a seeker forever. I mean, you know, the idea of having identity, any identity, seeker, finder, enlightened, whatever, is just an idea.
But, Jamie, you answered, you said the seeking was sweet. It was for me too sometimes. It was just a sweetness of a dream. I had my little meditation room set up in my garage. I used to wake up in the morning and I'd sit there for 45, you know, because I read the Paramahabharata or something like a Buddhist thing and it... So, you know, you've got to do in the morning and in the evening and I had my candles and my incense and I'd have these wonderful open experiences. Of course, you know, they'd come and go and a lot of it was brilliant. And, you know, in the story of me and that character, there was a lot of sweetness, but it...
Eventually just led me nowhere into ultimately more suffering where some resolution did finally happen, but it was,I wasn't doing anything. There was actually no seeker there. There was no seeker. There was just an energy that was having a certain experience. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm doing my qigong in the morning. I still like to do qigong, but I think it's like I like to have a warm bath as well too. It's nice when you get in the bath. So the Qigong's the same, you know. There's no one there trying to get anything from it, but it just feels comfortable. The story of the character continues, as it always has done.
It will just continue until it doesn't. It dissolves or whatever. Nothing wrong with that. Yeah, it's a beautiful story. We have another question here from Catherine. In the Bible, seek ye the kingdom of heaven first. I just quickly answered it because you had a conversation within. Seek it within. It's like even the idea of seeking the kingdom of heaven, it really is just a figure of speech. Recognize that it is already within. Rather than seek it within, there is no need to seek if it's already there. And I would also add to that that it's neither within nor without. It's non-dual. Because that's a concept that used to grab me of going, go within.
And there's this feeling that there was somewhere in here that I could go. But when it was seen, it's not within, it's not without. It's just... Yeah. It's just a turn of phrase.It is undeniably within that which you are, the consciousness. It isn't within the body. It isn't within the skin, that's for sure. That's where we look in the body. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's nothing to be found in the body. You can find the blood and... No. It is the fabric. The matrix, the fabric, everything is that. Yeah. There is no duality and non-duality. Except knowing that, knowing that there is no separation. That's it.
Say something. All this talk of seeking, I feel like it comes from a misperception.And I remember when you were talking about Bob had nothing to teach us or share, I remember I had a dream of Bob once. And I was lying in my bed in the dream. And then Bob walked into the room. And then just like his energy entered mine. And I just woke up like vibrating with presence. And the next time I saw him. I let him know and he just smiled and said, there's no difference between me and you. And it's just like shining. And I think touching on the seeking again, there's an idea of, me being in the world when in actual fact it's like the world is in me and there's no there's no edge to being like i think you're talking about the within without yeah just trying to find an edge to self can't be found no center of no edge yeah Yeah, it just struck me that when people talk or when the Bible talks about seeking within, and I've heard this often, I used to think about within this object.
Okay, and now I suddenly realize that what it means is seek you as subject rather than object.And that, well, anyway, that's what I thought. That's what it, it just occurred to me. That's maybe what it meant. It's just a pointer. Yeah. It's just a pointer. All pointers point back to you. Yeah, but you have to. Yes, yeah, yeah. Yes, go on. You have to understand the pointers. Oh, absolutely. And I didn't. No. I didn't. Yeah. Yeah. Yes and no. You already know it. The understanding is that you know that you are. Trying to understand the complex wordly worded pointers and this and really get into it, understand it.
Just it's more thoughts. It's more, you know, cards on the house of cards. So Bob would say, watch the mind, see how it works. That's it. Full stop. Realise when you look within, okay, it's a way of expressing, you can't find any one. You can't find a reference point. You can't find a boundary. Holy shit. It's just what's happening. That's it. Yes. And stop it.Do you want to have a last word? Last word is done. It will be done. No, it's done. Thank you everyone for coming. Thanks everyone for watching. Thank you everyone for contributing. And there is no such one as such. There's only one.
Contributing, expressing, sharing as everything. So the thank you is itself thanking itself for coming to its own party, which is the only show in town.