This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
Hi everyone, let me just... Hello. Hi. Yes, so maybe for today, just for a change, because we have been talking about addressing certain points on the last meeting. I will grab the mic. I won't be offering it for others just today, just for today. And we're going to start on what was Jenny's request to bring up the non-dual perspective of personal responsibility. Which we did mention that it is quite a short topic because for having personal responsibility of course we require a person and if there is no person then personal responsibility there may be something that looks like it just like there is something that looks like a person it appears to be so the but i would like to again use bob's language which is always so beautiful and there is always an aspect and there's always a paradox that is worthy of of bringing into the picture so when bob talks about responsibility he is doing the the word play and bringing in aresponsibility.
So do we have the ability to respond? Well, certainly it appears this way, that there is an ability to respond. So responsibility is ability to respond. And he also brings up a concept of reaction. Versus response. And again, that's a little bit of a language because there is only one, so everything is that one. But that distinction, again, highlights that beautiful aspect. The reaction is somewhat, somehow mechanical and blind. It's like... You know, that's the reaction. There is no pause. There is no reflection. There is just a reactivity. And there is also a response. And response comes from different place. It comes from silence. And I remember one of Bob's talks, he gave an example.
There was a woman who had a young child who was very naughty. And she was very often reacting and then feeling guilty about the reaction. Very common scenario for mothers, young mothers especially. And beating herself up. And then she could very easily embrace the explanation when Bob would point out that reactivity or reaction is something thathappens without taking a breath, without pausing. And then she remembered that when there was a place where you could just, sample a silence, just immerse in silence a little bit, then completely different response shows up. So on one hand, there is no person. So whatever life brings to the surface, whatever brings to the picture is always just what is.
On another hand, there is a significant difference in experiencing life, life experiencing itself with that understanding. Well, absence of psychological suffering does make a quality difference for the life experience. So a realization that there is no personal self. Therefore, nothing has to be taken personally. It may, because that's how the machine is conditioned. But when there is a moment for that gap and the breeder and realization that this taking thing personally is just an automatic response and defensiveness is just the automatic reaction, it is just an autopilot. And then having that message in heart, there may be a natural ability to sink into that self.silence and to make a little pause to just breathe out and from that silence there is a there is a realization coming up and this is just again part of the picture because i actually found myself enjoying pointing to that non-doership in a way using the concept of socialization which is i didn't really hear bob using that concept much but he heard me using it many times and never object objected to it frankly he kind of enjoyed that way of pointing so if there is no doer and there is this body mind mechanism or body mind machine there that is conditioned and bob often brings up how the little child is having warm or loving family and is bonding and the life is easier than it goes to school and the society and the teachers and the politicians and and everything conditions that organism to behave in particular way that is how the personality is being formed that is how it is structured So to address the question in the most direct way, we can look at extremes, at the body-mind machine that has been socialized in warm and loving environment.the body-mind that has been socialized or conditioned, the machine that has been programmed in an extremely hostile environment.
And then it will be obvious where the psychopathic or sociopathic behavior comes from. You know, if there is a child that is growing up in the environment with violence, experiencing violence, expressing violence, there may be a genetical aspects of it. But even if they are not, even adopted child in the environment of drug use and a lot of... Dysfunction will develop the behaviors that it can learn through imitation. So the environment does condition behavior. And psychology also points out that incapacitated or certain inability to experience empathy in children or adults is very often induced by early trauma. This is a mechanism shutting down that capacity of experience other people's pain or suffering is a mechanism that basically protects that organism from something that would be too overwhelming to handle.
And then we have all the lines of people who are super successful in the work.like a really, really very public politicians of high caliber, they can't afford being completely empathetic because every word of criticism would shut them down. It is a mechanism which is helpful in those cases. But now we can see having that one organism or body-mind organism or body-mind biocomputer, whatever, conditioned in a way that creates a personality of Hitler, who we don't even know if he was a psychopath. As far as we know, he loved his woman and his dog. But that's a good example because it's just, maybe it's not very good, but it's kind of a popular example that no one will be asking who is that guy who is Hitler.
Everyone knows that. So let's say we have a body-mind condition to behave in this way. And in different environment, we're going to have a body-mind condition conditioned in... Into the personality or behavior or life story of Mother Teresa, who apparently also was kind of a lost soul, sometimes a bully. But again, nobody will ask question who she was. She did everything she did to help and save people. So obviously, empathy wasn't absent in that body-mind. At least it didn't look this way. So now where there is a personal doership or personalresponsibility, which is frankly the same thing. In both cases. I mean, if Mother Teresa was growing up in the environment that Hitler was growing up, she would become a Hitler.
Because there is no single cause and effect and there is no choice. There is seeming choice, but there is no choice maker. So there is a seeming situation where there is a pause and there is a silence and there is a body-mind either respond in preconditioned reactive way or it doesn't. But still, there is no one who makes that choice. Choices happen and the whole world. Unfolds through resonation. So if there is a possibility to not mechanically respond to the preconditioned behavior pattern, that is also on life. That is not me who decides to not defend or to not take something personally. No, it is still life which somehow responds to that resonation.
It's like, you know, you strike one guitar, that's also an example that Bob often likes to give, and then there is another guitar in the other part of the room, and it responds. Nobody does that. It is the characteristic of that particular instrument to respond if there is something, if there isThere is that huge movement around the spirituality, stressing and criticizing non-duality as something that is designed to get everyone off the hook. And now you do whatever you want. You can kill, rape, steal, because there is no one else, because there is no you. So that misconception goes, and I remember even being in India with my first guru when a bunch of young people came and asked, so can we have sex?
Can we have sex with whoever we want? And they were pushing, pushing that guru to just give them permission. He just laughed his butt off. Because he understands that whether the permission is given or not, there is no doer. There's no doer. And young boys will be young boys. And they will do whatever they are conditioned to do. And if they are conditioned to respond to the religious rules, they will respond to the religious rules. And perhaps self-mind.mutilate or do whatever else. But again, because there is no person who is making any choice, the 10,000 things that cause the behavior are the same one fabric of reality.
So they are all on life. It's equally on life the fact that the priest might have raped you or the priest might have inspired you to never lose virginity before marriage or whatever it is. That is life. That is life expressing truth. And it's not just that one singular event. Of course, there is the whole universe. The priest had to be there at the first place. So the planet had to roll around the sun and the sun has to shine and he had to eat food. And all the 10,000 things, all the infinite amount of factors has to conspire for that particular outcome to present itself the way it does.
So personal responsibility or so-called spiritual bypassing, not working on oneself, you know, if there is nothing, so why would I? Those are all based in the misconception that there is a self that has a choice and can do or not do. And this one, we basically just take the carpet from underneath the feet and say, no, we're not joking. When we say there is no self with free will.and choice, this is not just to be, you know, just to be, what is it, weird or something that is kind of new now. That's the fact. And that is verifiable fact. In this moment right now, it can be verified instantly when the thinking is pushed aside for a moment and the experiencing happening right now without the thought will find any person in there or not.
You can see that the person is only there when the thought about a person is there. Without the thought, there isn't. And even though there isn't, there are still behaviors, there are still responses, there are still reactions. So life is using this instrument to play whatever music is pre-recorded in that instrument. And this pre-recording is constantly updating. Every new situation is a new update of the database. It's a new opportunity for that life to play another tune, to get inspired by another tune. And then when we say, oh, does it mean you never need to go and do a practice or do a therapy? No, it only means that there is no you who does it.
But when those things happen, if those things happen, that is nothing.to do with the message. You know, if you find yourself eating or drinking or dancing or going to the therapy or taking drugs, that is exactly what life is experiencing through this conditioned body-mind. And that is not what you have done right or wrong. That is just what is happening. With that understanding, you can learn about how the body is conditioned. Learning about the body being conditioned in a particular way from that standpoint of completely neutral witnessing presence, which is learning with curiosity rather than judging because of the socialization, which again, there's no criticism about that.
Socialization is a necessary movement of self-organizing life. Life self-organizes to create those social structures. Without that, we couldn't live in a packs or tribes or nations or global village like now. So those are all wonderful forces to notice and acknowledge, but to realize that those forces belong to life and those forces influence the body. And imagined self in the body is just an overlay that can totally be discarded. And everything is going to roll as it always did. When you realizethat imagined self is not the reality, you will instantaneously realize that it has never ever been a reality. 10 years, 20 years, 30 years ago, there hasn't been a personal self, even though there is a feeling that, yes, but I am taking responsibility.
And guess what? We all use it. We all say it. Why not? Unless we're cowards. We apologize. And we do feel remorse. Wonderful. That means we are, you know, in the dream, the dream characters are fairly healthy and appropriately socialized. Functional, yes. Go for it. Just so clear, as always, Kat. So beautifully done. So, so good. Even for the most lofty, seeming lofty, ethical, moral concepts like personal responsibility, there is no duality in non-duality, full stop. How can there possibly be personal responsibility when there is no person? But we are understanding what the concept is. It exists in this dream because life is self-organizing. Yes.
And what will happen in response will happen.in response, no matter what energy of belief you put into thinking that you did something, it will happen anyway and it will happen there and it will happen here and everywhere. But if we are truly, absolutely embracing non-duality, there is no exception. There's no room for even the most lofty, beautiful concept. You have to kiss it goodbye. Yep. Sweet way to put it. Wake up from that delusion of personal doership. And the idea is that now, okay, so if there is no personal doership, then I will go and plunder and rape and steal because I will go to court and they will tell me and I'll tell them, well, I'm not the doer.
I haven't done it. And then, of course, naturally, so you're going to be spending your life in jail or you're going to hang on the rope. But don't worry, because you're not the doer. That is not going to be you sitting in a jail for the rest of your life. So no worries. I mean, if you want to stay with the with the if life is playing that silly argumentative way of thinking. Or if that message, having it or not having, would actually have any impact on the behavior, that is actually just stay with that line ofthinking and see and see. And I remember being given that example on my introductory retreat to non-duality where we were offered as a group the image, that's just an imagination, an image of a situation where you are given a bomb.
That could kill, that would completely explode a building, like 20 floors building with a thousand people working there with childcare and animal care and all that. And you are assured 100% you're not going to be discovered. Nobody will ever know. And you go and drop that bomb. Would you do that? Nobody will ever know. You're not going to be held responsible. Personal responsibility taken away. Would you do that? What for? You wouldn't because the body doesn't have this capacity preconditioned. The machine is not designed to do that. While other machines might be designed to do that, and whether you tell them that message or you don't, they will follow their own design.
You know, like a car is driving and an airplane is flying and a dog is barking and a cat is meowing. The suicide bomber will do a suicide bombing and a compassionate, healthy, socialized, empathetic person will be exercising their own conditioning. And the jailer is jailing. And the judge is judging. And the police are catching. And, you know, that's all life.Self-organizing. Yeah. The burglar, the rapist, whatever. And then the opposite side. It's all seemingly opposite. Yeah, beautiful. And then you can see that, you know, watching that body-mind organism of yours, you can see the moment in which something out of whack happened or something uncomfortable happened.
And then you can see how the discomfort caused a reaction, maybe a blaming or maybe a shaming or maybe self-hatred. And, oh, wow, that's interesting. That's something new to learn about this machine. But that's not me. That's not who I am. That's my car. I drive it. Well, that's actually a little bit, again, off the mark because I am a totality, including the car that I'm driving. But for the sake of pointing, watching and learning how this computer, how this bio machine has been conditioned is a fascinating adventure. That is lifelong adventure because it is always it is life ever fresh, constantly new and self-updating.
So having that attitude, you may see that the body is exercising a stance of defensiveness or the stance of taking personal responsibility and apologizing. That is still going to happen if this is preconditioned in the body. I happen to have the longest work of my life, most of my life, to work as ship's officer.Do you think it was ever on the menu for me to show late to work or to forget about the smallest detail of running the ship under which there are people diving and they can lose their lives? Not on the menu. So this body has been trained and conditioned to take responsibility and look into the slightest detail of job on which people's life depended.
And I was paid well for that too. That was motivating. But that's, again, that's just what was required in this particular situation. In another situation, well, being a mother, that's even harder. Which I was spared, thankfully. But there you go. The life will program particular machine and will drive it or ride it in a way where the experiencing and expression of that particular machine is most appropriate. And including the narrative, which will be taking credit for stance, for responses and blame other people for not taking responsibility where they should or not apologize when they should. And all of that is just part of the overlay of the mind.
This is all the narrative. This is all conceptualization. This is all nama rupa, that which doesn't, which is not real, which is not happening. Because that which is happening is awareness of presence, blissful, joyous awareness of presence.And the content of that presence can be shaming or taking responsibility or not taking responsibility by no one. By no one. It's just the behavior. And I see the couple of comments. Primali says, great cut, like always. Thank you. And Yvonne says, try to sit in one place for half a day. Test it for yourself to see the truth. Be the truth. Seeing always from space-like awareness. Yes, beautiful.
That's it. Yes, absolutely. You can see that even though you may decide whatever you want, life will move you. And Bob has this funny anecdote that, sorry, I think someone recently came to visit Bob and was saying they actually know the guy who did the trick 20 or 30 years ago. Guy Lembo. Yes, the guy left the meeting and he was so worked out and so pissed off that there is no personal doership and he's
Nothing. He was driving in anger and eventually ended up in a God-forgotten village where he was living. And there was a time 30 years ago, there was no mobile phones.
So he jumped into a phone box and fuming with fury, he called Bob and he says, Okay, fuck that. If that's the truth, I'm not going to do anything at all. And Bob just laughed and he says, okay, see if you're going to stay in the phone box. And then he was laughing on another meeting. Do you think he's still there? Something will move you. One thing or the other. Life is inseparable. The body is moving all the time. You may decide not to breathe and see how well you will go with that. And one other thing, last thing, because the half an hour is going and I'm eager to give people a voice.
I don't know if Nick is with us today. If he isn't, I'm going to, I don't see everyone. I think he mightn't. Nevertheless, we got that beautiful little book, Beyond Words and Beyond Mind, today. I just received a couple of copies that I'm going to post it to him, translated to Spanish language. And I wanted to give him some credit, but if he's not there, I'll give him anyway. Because that's not an easy thing to translate. Those who have the book and know the book is like a piece of poetry. So to actually put it in a foreign language, well, try.if you want to, but it isn't a very easy thing.
I'm working, he inspired me to do a Polish version, but for now it's just another one, another little word of truth in Bob's beautiful interpretation of it, or rather rather very direct with very little interpretation mixed into the lot. It's on the market. So if there is anyone amongst us who speaks Spanish and would like to enjoy it, you can get it very, very cheap on Amazon right now. And now the time is, unless anyone would like to explore that topic any further and ask further questions, we can dig it from some other perspectives. Or just... Hi, Amin. Hi. Thank you, Kat. Hi, everyone. And thank you, Kat, for this introduction on this topic of responsibility.
I just wanted to say, to share about my experience with this concept of responsibility, because It's been here like 30 years that I do workshops with engineers on this topic, and specifically this topic. And it's beautiful howwas an intuition in the beginning of this work about how this topic brings a lot of suffering in our society because of a misunderstanding. But like in the beginning, I had I hadn't any clue about what was the misunderstanding, but I really, really wanted to dig in this and investigate it with students. So I did that and like maybe two years ago or three years ago, it becomes clearer and clearer that this concept of responsibility doesn't describe anything, anything about a history of a person doing something.
It's just about, as you said, a response and our ability to respond. Just being with this simplicity brought a big change. And one day with Bob, I just asked him, what do you think about responsibility? And he asked me, well, what is your next response? And it was beautiful to just acknowledge that it was the inspirationthe act of taking the air and just staying with that, staying with this simple response. breathing. This, and this, yeah, struck me, like, oh, yeah, this is the simplest response of the body. Not this, maybe there are more responses going on, of course, unconsciously, but At a certain level, I can just stay with that, with this response of breathing.
And just appreciating that.So that's what I wanted to share. So thank you. Yeah, that's beautiful. It's beautiful. Just learning, just watching. What's your next thought going to be? What's your next feeling going to be? What's the next response is going to be? What's the next question going to be? And seeing how they flow without any volition. Without any choices, I mean choices, choice makers, and just being curious. Yeah, and this curiosity is like the childlike curiosity, it's like, yeah, just discovering this life happening. We all have been childs, we all have been in that state of curiosity, we all have been in that state of marvel, of facing life and falling and just expressing.
Yeah, it's just so delicate. Yeah, just staying with that and honoring that is... So much like I can see how it's difficult when we are parents to honor that in the child that isgrowing with us. It's like honoring his curiosity, his, yeah, this void expressing in that form. And yeah, how much it's... It's going in too much directions. Beautiful. Just amazing, isn't it? It's amazing. Amazing. Wow. Shit. Wow. Just what a ride. Wow. And Bob also very often says that, you know, when we look at little children, children are very close to it because they're self-concept the cage of concepts the identity isn't that rigid and that solid yet they didn't add enough of that rigidness rigidity to themselves yet so yes that's why also jesus points you well you know you want to go to the kingdom Be like a little child.
Be open. Be curious. Be explorative. Be just, yeah, just here, here, present.Yes. Jenny, would you like to unmute? First, thank you for your elaboration on the topic of responsibility and response. And I always find it, or I, well, I find the topic interesting as a Last week we also spoke about unfixated awareness. And that is also a part of this whole discussion, at least to me as I see it. Because if we talk about small children and curiosity and openness, yes, of course. I mean, that is that part of the child, of being a child we want to have. But on the other hand, it's hard to imagine a society, life being ruled by a bunch of two-year-olds.
You know, you can imagine how would it be if there would just be a bunch of two-year-olds running everything. You know, it would be difficult to get structure into things and to make this society function. It would probably be very...Very interesting, but quite chaotic. And that is actually what happens also when personalities start to come, have leading positions who in their mindset maybe are throwing a bit too many tantrums like a two-year-old. That can also be an observation. But what you brought in, Kat, is the ability, when there is space for awareness, for this, when all the awareness is not occupied by the seeming self, then there is space for that breath.
And that is where I wanted to point to that even if there's no self, there might still beHow shall I say? It's so hard to describe, but... That there is a level of, of, of, uh, of having read up awareness so that there's possibilities for breaths. And then life anyhow chooses to whatever life is life thing, whatever light, whatever happens, happens. What I'm a bit allergic to in a sense iswell, it's not me, there is no self, so it's not me, so I don't have to take responsibility for anything. It's not me, I mean, I can do whatever I want, it's anyhow not me, it's just life running through me.
Sure, yes. But as you said, empathy and socialization and an open heart, maybe I don't know. Well, in that everything is, I mean, it's a difficult topic. I guess it's about,about that there are, I'm going to try, as I perceive it, we have this game we're playing, Maya. It is a game. And in all board games, to have the board games function, we have sets of rules. We have, you know, who's running the dice and then you can go doop, doop, doop. You can take so many steps. And that is what makes the board game, you know, fun to play. And I guess that is where...kind of where my reflections come from about it.
In the game of Maya, in Maya, we, It's good if we learn to take that breath. Before we react. That's just what I, what comes out of my mouth right now. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, every semi-healthy member of the society prefers to be around people who are able to have that pause. It's natural preference of life towards love and kindness and pleasure and against the psychopathic behaviors and hurting. And that's, yeah, that's... That's part of it, of being alive. And, you know, what we label as right and wrong, good and bad, dark and light, are two ends of the same stick. And what we can't see is the whole story.
Yeah. And it's... You know, like it says, 10,000 things. It's the most complex, intricate web you could possibly never imagine. Pull one thread and the whole web reverberates. Everything is connected. There's no point trying to even imaginewhere what someone said at this time or someone said this where it's going to end up we cannot see the whole picture we do not we cannot say oh this was a good thing a bad thing who knows it could be the word that saved the world from imminent climate change death or whatever Let it be. There's no one driving the bus. There's no one on the bus. It's a driverless, passengerless bus.
We're just watching it. It's fascinating. It's wonderful. It's amazing. It's like, wow, wow. But we don't, there is no rules, guidelines, all of that is all appearing in the dream. And that is all fine. That is life self-organizing. Yeah, there certainly seem to be guidelines and rules for those who obey them. But I wonder if, I'm pretty sure that if you look thoroughly, anyone can find in their own life experience as a dream character in the dream, a situation where the greatest fear became the greatest blessing or the greatest tragedy became something that turned out to be maybe a prompt for a deeper investigation or even the old Buddha story, if he didn't stumble upon the...the deaf, the dead guy and the sick guy.
And what was the third one? The poor guy? Well, he would be a prince in the palace and he would never look further and find the way and show the way for people to liberate themselves from the suffering. And I see Amin is unmute and Tanya correctly says, wow, Tanya says, Primali. And Vivek says, Tanya correctly said, only spiritual wisdom is the answer solution to all the questions. I mean, you on. Thanks. Just it brought the topic of relationship and seemingly two people interacting and on the level of the dream. There is a lot of stories going on. I did this, he did that for this and for that.
And he did me that and she did me that. And she meant harming me or disconnecting from me. Or I don't know, a lot of stories. It's becoming clearer and clearer here that there is only one. So what I can bring is curiosity. What I can bring is, oh, what is going on here? And just being... Very, very curious. Very, very curious. Like more and more and more and more.and more and more curious because it's always unfolding surprisingly unfolding new things new ways of seeing things and it's always like oh shit that's a new story oh i i never thought about this And it's savory when you can be both in that attitude of curiosity.
Yes, it's so savory to experience this dance with seemingly someone else. Oh wow! Oh, oh, oh, oh, you too, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, and this never stops. And it's so frustrating when you can't. And it's seemingly so frustrating when... You want it and the other person is seemingly stuck in this story of personal stuff and you did that to me and oh and you're just what's going on there i did nothing no i'm sure i assure you i did nothing but oh and you're trying to be curious and the other is just Pushing, pushing, pushing. But that also is kind of, wow.okay how how how it's how how how how how how how and just yeah just like okay um if there is no one if really really really really it's known It's the only thing that's left is curiosity.
I cannot stick. I can't stick for a time because this machinery needs this time to process all the intensity. So it's going to construct stories. Stories just to, okay, I'm going to take this bit of intensity bit per bit because I cannot stand all this shit in just one strike. So I need stories to those, those, this.But at the end, the story just is digested. The story is just disintegrated. And what is left is just the amazement of what the fuck life is just wow. At least in my experience in this reality, it's about old stories. Not a story has been... Stronger than reality, stronger than what is.
And what is, is just this space, this void, this space, this knowing void, knowing void. And this knowing void is just processing everything.Not even everything, because there is no everything. It's just, yeah, I think everyone is just, yeah, it's just obvious for everyone, I think. Thank you. Yes, thank you. I mean, beautiful. And we have Vivek has the hand up and after Vivek, Kimo eating popcorn. So Vivek, you first and Kimo is coming. Hi, everyone. Hi, Kat, Bob, Tanya, everyone. So, yeah, I think, I mean, it's kind of whatever I had a question. See, it's not a question, but just a general, maybe discussion point of view.
So, I mean, there was one lecture I was listening in somebody from Buddhist background. And he doesn't talk about Brahman or Atma or like this presence, but he used to always talk about nothingness. Or this nest, something called this nest. So yeah, little bit, I have a question there, like question in the sense, like it's this question doesn't make sense, just maybe little bit clarity it will give. So whether this nothingness he talks or this nest orwhatever is there. So this is from the Buddhist background this is coming. But from the background that I have, for example, which is more like a Hinduism background, where it is more of Atman or a Brahman or one entity which is there, which knows.
So there is a bit of contradiction, not contradiction, but it is pointing to the same thing, but in a different manner. So if any input, something Kat can or Tanya can tell or anybody can pitch in, just from discussion point of view, actually any question doesn't make sense. But anyway. Lovely. Thank you, Vivek. I think Kimo would answer that wonderfully. Would you, Kimo?Oh, hi. Maybe you could repeat the question. I was mostly trying to gather my thoughts. Or you were eating popcorn, busy eating popcorn. Oh, what does eating popcorn mean? Oh, yeah. You know, the meeting starts at 2.30 my time, and I logged on as soon as I kind of stirred.
I looked at my watch to look at the time, and I said, Wow. You know, I might get some entertainment here, some, you know, blah, blah, blah about a personal story. And then someone saying, you be quiet. No, you be quiet. See a little bit of electricity. Some of that juicy stuff. But what I wanted to talk about is what... What that kind of juiciness brought out. And I think we touched on it a little bit in the few minutes I was here. And unfortunately, I missed Kat's beautiful presentation. But one thing I heard that I wanted to talk about and also kind of re- You know, my kind of my talk last time was about the personal me who would attend religion, religious services or bhakti, and an explanation for the one who's moving, the one who's seemingly moving in the world.as a me and that sort of thing.
But one of the things that came up in this electricity from two days ago was, hey, you know, when it all comes down to it, I'm a person who, while I'm here, I'm going to take responsibility. And I demand others do the same. And I'm only going to go to places where I'm enriched. And, you know, I'm tired of hearing people blah, blah, blah. And I'm also tired of hearing people who hide their bad behavior behind the message of consciousness. So I wanted to talk about that. There's a natural flow in the appearances. So we're all going to seek, as people, what favors us. And sometimes there needs to be help with that because there could be an attendance or an affinity.
For something that is not very healthy for the individual based upon past scars or trauma. But for the most part, there's a natural flow of a message that will resonate with us and also the messenger who shares that. But it's interesting the way the finger is pointed at organized religion as if spirituality is higher. Because when you look at spirituality, it's the same thing about the priest and the Bible. We have a certain message that we want it presented a certain way. You know, we may be anti-drug, the presenter can't be on drugs, or we want them on drugs, we want ayahuasca. We want the person to be strong and masculine or strong female presence, or that's a turn off, that's what we don't want, we want someone quiet.
Or, you know, the person, we want someone good looking. We want Brad Pitt. We want Jennifer Aniston.Aniston or we want Denzel Washington, but we want them to be asexual. But of course, if we like them, we want them to be interested in us. But even though we describe that there's personal responsibility, there's really just that natural following or pleasure or displeasure in a message being provided. And a lot of times here in non-duality, we say that it's unlike religion. We're not looking at the person, we're looking at the message. But we're actually looking beyond both because what we're pointing at is the message and it is the heart of what we're talking about here.
So when we talk about bad behavior being hidden behind a message of consciousness, What the word consciousness or awareness or your true being is pointing at, nothing can hide behind that, including bad behavior, including the message. So when we, before we get into spirituality, we have Okay, what is the natural, even though there's socialization and there's a seeming separation, you know, I'm here, you're here.I mean, that's a concept. It's definitely a concept. I'm here and you're there. Because what we go on, I'm here and you're there, is body positioning. And the body is clearly an appearance in whatever we are. The idea of distance between us is not true.
And the other thing that seems very natural is I see the other side of the room or even a concept here. I see a room inside of the United States or inside of Florida. And then we get into, well, we must be separate because I can't see what you see there in Australia. But the facts and my true experience here is not that chemo sees a room in Florida. And I'm sure there's not an experience that Kat sees a room in Australia or Melbourne. The experience is I see the other side of a room. And on Kat's side, I see the other side of her room.
It's that same eye.is pressed when folks come to him to talk and they say, you know, I really want to grasp this. I've done neti neti. I've looked and I see that I am. I'm present and aware, but I can't find myself. And Bob will confirm that. He will say you're no thing. You're nothing. You don't even have to put a label of consciousness, awareness, or being on it. You can't deny your being, but you don't even have to label it as being. Everything literally is an appearance. And making a concession kind of to duality is that it appears to... It appears to you. It appears to nothing.
Nothing. When I look, I see nothing. So nothing sees the other side of the room.And when you talk about nothing, the separate object, that kind of creates a conceptual duality as a pedagogical method. Nothing sees the other side of the room, but that that nothing, objects, how much distance is there between objects and nothing? There can't be. There's no distance at all. And then the concept of, well, you know, that's a play on words, Kimo. You're saying, I see the room in Australia and I see the room in... In Florida, they're not the same thing because my nothing is limited to Florida or my nothing is limited to Australia.
But can nothing be limited? That's the whole idea of nothing. It's such a beautiful presence that we are because we're nothing. We have no limits, yet we are. So something that is nothing, but still is, is unlimited.And when objects can't be separate from nothing, you literally can't even put a credit card or a pinhead between nothing and objects. Which means that that cognizing emptiness and objects are not separate from each other. That is the entire package right there, what you are. That cognizing emptiness, that nothing. Bob always says you can't have something come from nothing. But of course, the appearances are enjoyed. You know, their children, friendships.
A body attending church, a body reading Bhagavad Gita, what have you. And kind of to explain that away, there's definitely a natural flow of the body to be in a setting where there's going to be direct pointing and also behavior that's within certain parameters of love, kindness, and friendship. And that's just a natural thing that you can't get away from. And it's also natural for folks to be helped if they can't help themselves, if they're in a non-helpfultype liaison or in a cult. It's not about the messenger or the message itself. It's what we're pointing at. And there's no bad behavior or bad character who can hide behind that.
Because everyone is that at the very start, that no thing, that no thing that is, that has no limits. And it can't be grasped, but it can't be denied. And there I land.Yeah, that's spot on. Beautiful. Yeah, I didn't even notice that someone was kind of claiming hiding behind. But that's a good point. Yes, it is often an argument and it makes no sense. And here Jenny says, taking things personally creates dissonance, the belief that there is a self that can be offended, misunderstood, etc. Full stop, breath, bliss and heart. Beautiful, exactly. And Yvonne says, no boundaries, no center. And Amin says, beautiful, Kimo. And Jenny seconds to that and love this, Amin.
And Vivek, you were asking about the isness. Would you like to say the question again, just briefly? Okay, so basically I was just compared this, I mean, the discussion of the point was related to the Buddhism versus Hinduism to approach this thing. So in Buddhism, it is more like, there is nothing, nothing is happening. And there is nothing just whatever is there is there. But in Hinduism, it is more like there is a awareness, there is a presence, there is an Atman, there is a Brahman actually, and that is a unified thing and everything is happening in that or nothing.thing is whatever is in that.
So these are two ways of putting the same thing in a different way. Yeah. So, I mean, I mean, I'm still like more towards Hinduism kind of a way of this thing. But yeah, this thing is a little bit difficult for me to absorb or like whatever. See, that's why I actually find it helpful. Bob sometimes brings up even more religions. He brings up Dzogchen and says great perfection is non-conceptual awareness, or form is empty as its form. He brings Christianity and talks about omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience. If it's total presence, how could you be excluded or be something else in that presence? And he brings a lot.
He says also Muslims will say, I don't remember the whole quote, but there is only Allah and there is none other or nothing else. And sometimes he also quotes. Hebrew, they all have the same sort of a base, but they present it in different ways. So that whatever your body is conditioned to resonate with or respond to will be triggered. Not every pointer has to be, has to, you know, like bring the right sound, strike the right note. Some may resonate better, some vocabulary may be more kind of attuned to your particular tuning.What is also good, and I find it a nice little challenge, to see between all those concepts, you know, presence awareness, consciousness, witnessing presence, the ordinary awareness, God, whatever else, intelligence, nothingness, life essence, between all those different ways or aspects of pointing Brahman or pure subjectivity, singularity, uncontrived singularity, what is there in common of space-like awareness or sky-like awareness or cognizing emptiness?
So many different ways you can just really chalk someone up with those concepts. There is one thing that is no thing that you could sense that is all in common. And nothing really stands in sometimes you can bring absolute opposites into the picture and then again there is something that is in common but that something is not a thing it is not an object it's kind of like a the the innate knowing in which yeah yeah i can't quite put my finger on it what it is but yes there is that aliveness in it that is you know whether you talk brahman or you or you speak about cognizing emptiness there is something sentient about it not sentient in a way the cat or dog is sentientbut the possibility or capacity for sentience.
But at the same time, we are talking about emptiness, but not a void, not complete void. Although some people like the word void because it's so overwhelming. And there is some aspect of that overwhelmed or the little dream character that feels small and safe within its imagined confinement. Or love, you know, the pointers, the words that are huge at the same time, and at the same time, they point to nothing really, because you can't really put any boundaries. So the knowing is what is the same in all those different pointers. And or just pick one or just sense one. Ordinary awareness is pretty commonly well understood.
Or the I am is commonly understood, but it may be also all of those pointers can also be completely misguiding. That's why, you know, so many is thrown and you see, oh, shit, you know, if this is I am and at the same time it is the emptiness and at the same time it is love, like, oh, shit, you know. You can think yourself into hell because it is non-conceptual awareness. But at the same time, you are here.to even evaluate all those concepts. And that being here is the common denominator. But it's a good point to highlight. But I see Brendan has the hand up.
So would you like to add something to that, Vivek, or give voice to Brendan? Yeah, you're on. I just wanted to ask Ken now a bit more about what he was saying about being in one room and then going in another room in a different state. Yeah, I just want to grasp that a bit more about that was my thing.But I'd just like that to be a little bit more explained, if you could, in a different way, maybe. He's awesome. Bretton, can you just maybe push the plug of the headphones a little more because you're a little bit muffled. Can you hear me now? Is that better?
Oh, wonderful. Now we can hear everyone. Yeah, I just would like to ask Kimo a bit more about what he meant by when we're in one room and then we're in another room in a different state. There's no thing looking.what he meant by that or if he could elaborate a bit more so I could get a better grasp on that. Kimo, would you like to answer that? Yeah, I could go over it briefly again. And keep in mind, just be open to what's actually happening, not really grasping it, because obviously the one who's grasping it is still kind of on the display there. You know, of course, of course, that's not really getting at the heart of what we are, because when we look back, we know that we are.
We know that we are and we know that we're aware. And we know that we're not an object, so we're no thing. But that no thing has no limits. So what I'm talking about here and kind of keeping it to Bob's style, because I do have people who talk to me from other traditions and sort of the doubts come up. The doubts come up from explaining things in a traditional sense. And a lot of times you'll hear teachers or, you know, there's really not a teacher. Everyone is sharing because we're all the same at heart. But a lot of times, Like we've said,some teachers hide behind a message of consciousness or bad behavior.
But there are also teachers who say, you know, let's not mix levels. You can't mix levels because, you know, you can't bring duality and non-duality together. But if all there is is non-duality, there's no duality and non-duality. If you really investigate this, you should be able to explain this, or you should be able to look at this and see that it's true. So really, when we're socialized, we're told that we're separate. And the socialization makes us feel that we're separate. But when we really look to what we are, I mean, really look at what we are, we see that we're no thing, that we're nothing.
So what we talk about when we talk about separation is the assumption that we're a body. So the socialization process and what is habitual is I'm here and you're there because it's that habitual process of identifying as the body. Even if you're spiritual, so to speak. that's still going to be a crutch that you keep.coming back to. You know, Nisargadatta said, you're not the body, you're not the mind. And that was what led Bob to have a realization. But, you know, those two, It's like the body is the mind's best buddy because the body is the anchor for the mind declaring separation. And the body is definitely an idea within itself to claim separation.
But what I was getting at with... Kind of the point that is brought up to me and other folks in discussion groups is there is separation because here we are on a Zoom and we're all together on the screen, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we all have our separate lives, we all have our separate experiences. So I am an individual who's separate from you. who's trying to see that I'm, you know, I am a person who's trying to become this presence or become non-dual. But my point is that if you honestly look at what's happening, even using dualistic talk, you'll see that non-duality is already the case.
My true, my true.true experience and I invite you to do the same. If you're sitting in a room right now, look at the other side of the room and look at some of the objects and actually say, actually, what is the true feeling of what is actually happening here? My true experience is I see a cup. I see dishwashing soap. I see a coffee machine. My true experience is not chemo. Chemo sees a cup. Chemo sees its eye. And I would say that other folks in so-called other states or countries have the same experience. I see this. I see the coffee cup or I see or I hear the Mikey train going by.
I hear thunder. I see lightning. And it seems like a little trick to say, okay, it's the same I because we're just saying I grammatically. But when you look at it, that is the case. That reality is the case. Even God said, I am that I am, that I.So when we talk about, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, but there's a difference. My eye is different from your eye. But take a look at that. You know that you're present and aware. But are you present and aware as a thing, honestly? The habitual thing is that I'm aware as a body. That's what we're brought up to believe, that we don't think that consciousness is going to lose a body when the body disintegrates.
We think that the body is going to lose consciousness. But when we look at this closer, we see through the neti neti approach or just through pointing that we're not a thing. We are no thing. And combining that together is nothing.And objects can't be separate from nothing because nothing takes up no space. It doesn't exist within a past and a future. It doesn't exist within time or space, but we try to impose limits on it. There's this halfway stage to where we go from the body being conscious and we don't fully take the leap to consciousness has a body or consciousness is losing a body when the body disintegrates.
There's this halfway point where we know that we're present and we know that we're aware, but we want to limit it. We can't find a limitation to what we are, but we assume that there's one. And my thing is, is even looking within duality, you can see that there's no separation. Because if I go to that initial assumption that I'm chemo and I lived in Florida, I live in the United States, I'm cooked. I can believe that, but if I investigate it, I see that that's not true, that that's an appearance. And what it's appearing to, to use dualistic talk, is no thing. An aware presence which has no form.And how can I limit that?
Even if I say, okay, well, my experience here is that it's limited. Well, how so? The experience, the objects have a limitation to it, but what they're appearing in, what kind of limits does it have? We're taking the idea that Florida is appearing and that distinct objects of America are appearing here. We're taking that as an analogy. That means what I am, what sees that, is also based in time and space and is limited. But in our investigation, when we look at that, we find that's not true. I can't find a separate limited person in time and space, even though I'm
I may think that I am based on, it's not based on direct experience.
It's based on anecdotal experience, almost like, you know, the phrase where they say birds of a feather flock together or guilt by association. Since objects seem to be limited and I'm surrounded by Floridian or American objects, oh, it must be I'm limited too. You know, these objects are my friends. But you catch the subtlety there of if I'm limited too, I must be another object just like them. So then there's that shrinking feeling back into the body. But the body never ceases to be an object to what I am. That no thing, no matter how confused I get, no matter how confused anybody gets, They can look at that body-mind and really looking at the body because there's either bodily identification or mind identification that's anchored in the appearance of a body.
No matter how confused you are, you can always see that the body is an appearance to whatever you are. And when we try to find what we are, we can't do it because it's not a thing. But we know that we are. It's the only thing that's not a thing, but that also exists.exists or that also is. So, Even though all appearances are seemingly limited, what sees that it's not limited itself and really go into a deeper depth of that, the appearance isn't really limited either because its essence, it's sort of unreal because it's constantly changing. And the only way it can appear is because of that presence, that no thing, that no thing that is completely stable.
So there's no distance at all between objects and what you are because you can't, you can't, how do you measure? You can't measure between objects and no thing. You can only measure between objects and a body. Time and space, the body is time bound. The body is positioned in time and space. But is that really our refuge, the body? Is that really what I am? If it's clearly an appearance, can it be what I am? And if I'm not the body, where does time and space go? Where does anything go that's limiting me in any way whatsoever? So hopefully that helped. Yeah, that.That really did.
Thank you. It just shows that there's no separate experience. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, thank you, Kimona. It was beautiful. And Tanya? I just, Kimo's example of the looking at the objects in the room and he was seeing a cup and the dishwasher. People, you know, often I think people kind of, oh, I need to take myself away to a quiet place. On my own to do the investigation, right? You can do the investigation anytime, anywhere. Keep doing it as much as it comes up. A really interesting place to do it is in a really busy place like an airport or a train station where there's bodies moving around and doing this and doing this like this microcosm of craziness.
And airports are great because you can sort of find a little spot, maybe a little bit higher, and you've got this view of all these hundreds of people, seeming people moving around. Doing things and sitting at desk and typing stuff and picking up luggage and whatever and you do the investigation and you have a look can you find a reference point Can you find a balance?It's just space. It's just space looking, seeing, hearing, experiencing, whatever. And then notice, actually, it's the same for everybody else in this crazy airport of seeming people with stuff to do. Ideas and thinking they're people doing stuff with agendas. Actually, there's just space there too.
And it's a really good kind of reminder. Fun to do anytime, anywhere. You don't have to be sitting quietly in a room on your meditation mat. Yeah. Also, both has this really good sort of easy point to bring the attention away from the thinking mind, from the past, future, analyzing, computing, comparing, objectifying into the seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. Just, just like Tanya was saying, you know, like, look at the whole picture, just kind of more peripheral vision rather than just analyzing objects and contemplating and focusing that unfixated awareness. Also, what I used to do, I have that very, very sensitive nervous system. And we used to go to Sofia restaurant every week after the talk on Sunday.
And that is a place which is so easily overwhelming, even to someone who does not have that.inherent inbuilt sensitivity for me it was an incredible opportunity to just see the inflammation coming up and medicate myself through relaxing the attention into the 10 000 noises of every fork banging about on the plate and every waiter taking orders 100 people all at the same time that does huge background and a lot happening when the attention is relaxed no situation is too hard or too difficult or too challenging because the challenge comes from from the resistance coming from the mind from the reference point if there is none if you focus the attention one sound here one there you realize they're all here they are all happening within that space that you are every sound all restaurant every person every other body is happening within that awareness that you are so it is just like you know every cell of your stomach happens in the same awareness and then how is that yours and the other one is not it's it's all just is as it is and i think we had uh i mean was first and then was vivek so i mean you onI think it's Vivek first.
I saw your hand first, Vivek. Oh, okay. It's okay. So it's all oneness, right? Yeah. So by the way, yeah, just adding to Kimo's point and Tanya's point, actually, that is a very good example in the sense like, For me, I am sitting in one room and there is a, in room there is its own way the things is there. There is another room then, for me this room is a reality and for other person that room is a reality. So what is actually the reality? Reality is the one who is seeing it actually. It's not in the room, it's the seer who is real.
So that is one thing. Other similar example is like for me in India, it's winter. And for cat, it is summer there. So what is reality here? It's not in summer or winter. It's the one who is experiencing that. See, Vivek, in Bob's language, it may even be put in a more simplified and uncompromising way. Not a CER, but the C-ing itself. The pure functioning, not the functionaire. Yeah, yeah, right. But the ing, the ing, the whole. Yeah, my reference is always on this here. Yeah, yeah, your this thing is I've heard a lot of like, means a lot of videos from Bob andYeah, that is correct.
That is more precise. I agree. Yeah. It's very confusing. Yes. Yeah. Putting in on him. Everything is helpful. Because depersonalizing. Right, right. That is correct. It's like raining, you know, there is no rain that is doing the raining. It's just the ink, just the processing happening, the breathing, the heart beating, no one doing it and yet it's happening. Right. Yeah. So, yeah, that was the thing like. What is the reality? Like for everyone, the reality is different. It's a dream. The dream is different. The dream is different. Yeah, the content of the experiencing is changing moment to moment and also changing from position to position.
The content, but the capacity for experiencing. Is the same everywhere and for everyone like seeing the capacity or the functioning or the or the experiencing of the seeing is the same bob has this beautiful example of you wake up you open your eyes in the morning and the seeing is already there you didn't have to start it switch it on no the seeing is there but the content is your bedroom or wherever you sleep And then you go to the kitchen and you do your breakfast. The seeing is the same. The capacity for seeing is the same. But now it's the kitchen, not the bedroom.
And then some...other vehicle through another set of lenses will see other content, but the seeing is unified. It's experiencing unified. Yeah. And one small experience I just want to share, like a few days back, I mean, mind was telling do this thing in this way. Then I thought like this mind is making some tricks. So I did the opposite only. So normally mind doesn't disturb, but sometimes it does then do opposite. Let's see what you will, what to harm will happen. So yeah, that was just some. Yeah, beauty. That's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just regard the mind. Screw you, man. Yeah, screw you. And again, this is think ink is one of the capacities of that machine has.
It does that. Narrate ink. That's what it does. You know, it's just like your chat GPT. If you put the speaker, it will speak. But there is no one doing it. Same with the narrating, commenting function of this machine. It will do whatever it will do. But, you know, we habitually think that, oh, this is me, this is me, this is my voice, this is my opinion. Or this is my fear or my anxiety. No, it's just the content. Of the thinking field of thinking or the capacity for thinking just changing content so yes thanks everyone andI mean, I think you were telling something. Yes, thank you, Vivek.
Thank you. And Amin, you're on. Yeah, thank you. I just wanted to resonate with what you shared, Kat, about your experience in the restaurant. And this morning in the car, I was just driving and just my thought was, bursting because there was a lot of cars and my nervous system was getting a bit like activated and just something happened like a release from the grip of the thinking and just relaxing in the experience of the body. And it was just so beautiful to witness how the body was completely concentrated on the road. But as a way, it's kind of no way to do another thing than just look at this road.
And just make the good decisions. Even in this chaos, everything was so perfectly clear for this machine in this situation. And it was so, the contrast was very beautiful. The mindwas going completely crazy and just the body or what I call the body was just really relaxed and clear. This is the way, no other way. That's what I wanted to share. Oh, yeah, that's beautiful. And I also wanted to say, because I didn't say it on the beginning, I think we have one new name on the screen, and I would like to welcome someone who is with us for the first time. And we may not that readily and quickly call it a safe space.
We would like it to be, but sometimes things may go pear-shaped. But we do really endeavor at being loving and respectful and just assisting each other at pointing to what everyone already knows, but may overlook the fact that this is it and there is nothing else and nothing more that matters really. Depends on the definition of safe. Yes, because life that you are is never, ever harmed by anything that happens, even when the body is crucified or the mind. Life is just trust in life. Knowing what life is. Life has got you. It's got you. It's got you. So relax. Yes. And it's all being...Everything that's happening is, well, if the way to explain it, I think, you know, if there were a God, it would be doing what needs to be done.
So just, it's okay. By the way, you've got no choice, you're choiceless awareness. But anyway, so just sit back and enjoy the ride. And wow. Yeah. Like Amin says, wow. You know, wonderful, amazing, holy shit. Yeah. So thank you, everyone. Thank you for joining us. And we're going to be here next week. So have a beautiful weekend and lots of love. Thank you. Thank you. You too. Bye. And Maggie, kiss to Bob. Absolutely. That was great. Really great. Thank you. Love you.