Sailor Bob Nonduality Meeting 28 February 2016

5.DISRUMPTION In this live recording, we will start with the word interview. 5.DISRUPTION The first, this is a direct discussion and discussion... ...with Mark Goodrell, the Head of the Information Systems of Queensland. Well, you'll know what it's all about, won't you? Nonduality. One without a second, not even one. People hear this statement, who am I? And they get stuck with that, looking for years to try and find out who am I. They asked themselves, who's asking the question? What would be the answer? I am. I am asking. So this I you're looking for, who I is a question. It's a word, a concept, an idea. So the question is who am I?

And the questioner is who am I? They're both concepts. So if they're both concepts, who's looking for what? Wouldn't they cancel each other out? I am is just a concept. And the question who am I is just a conceptual thought up there. They're both the same thing, so it's pointless looking along. There's no point of view there that you can really relate to to look for. A lot of people don't recognise that the search is over immediately. You don't have to look for hell and all that. Because the question and the question cancel each other out. I see that we go along and look, you know, I've got to understand this, I've got to get this and do this.

All more concepts put up. I am looking to get this, I am looking to understand this, I need to know, I've got to do this practice. All of that basic I Am-ness, the sense of presence, which translates as the thought I Am. But the sense of presence is not the thought. It can never be a thought. That sense of presence is with you right now. When you're probably, if you are listening to this, you're probably listening to this and not taking any notice of the sense of presence. But you're not away from it, that's the same as I ask you, are you unaware right now?

We look for awareness. We think awareness is something we've got to get. But is anyone unaware right now? Again you sit there and realize, no, I'm not unaware. So if you're not unaware, what must you be? You must be aware already. With that label you're putting on it, can you give it any shape, any form, any pattern whatsoever? You can't. Is it high? Is it low? Is it wide? Is it close? Is it there? It's just another label. Just like the I am, the sense of presence. We try and relate it to a conceptual image, a pattern we've built. So when they tell us that everything is that, and Shakespeare tells you nothing is right or wrong unless you think about it, nothing good or bad unless you think about it, you get the idea that the only problem we've ever got is thinking.

And thinking doesn't need to be a problem. It's a very useful instrument. But it is a vibration of energy. Have a look and see. Thought is a vibration. A vibration is a movement of energy. Being a vibration, like, it's just like you've got a vibration. It got stoppers on each end and the stoppers we put upon it are these words we allowed to require Look at your mind and see how it functions It either good or it bad The good and the bad are the Stoppage What have you done You're not thinking good or bad. Where does it stop then? Happy, sad, pleasant, painful. The boundaries we put upon it all are the words which we've learnt or acquired.

All these are the words. It didn't come into the world with any words. None of us ever did. We've all learned them, picked them up along the way. And the word is not the thing. But to take the word water, can you drink it? Can you wash in it? Can you swim in it? You can't do anything with the word. Because the word fire burn your mouth. So the word is not the actual thing. It's just a label. We put it on the wall. We put it on the wall. I Am. I initially believed that it was something, some reality about the I-R-D-V, and I kept relating back to it.

And relating to it, relationship is duality, relative to it. Realize, when the thinking is going on, it's always going on dualistically. Now that doesn't mean to say that you have to get rid of all thoughts and stop thinking. You don't. You need to pause the thought and recognise that there's still livingness going on prior to the thought. You don't have to get rid of thinking. I think it can be very useful. Noticing the way it vibrates, and it always vibrates in the interglide opposites, You know the shit's gonna come up? As the opposite. But knowing that, and knowing it's the one essence, you're going to be concerned with it.

When they say it's the one essence appearing and expressing as everything, realise that's so. There's not two. I use the term in, there's not any one-ended stick, each stick's got two ends to it. One might be rough or smooth, and we don't want the rough one. We only want the good, we don't want the bad. So, have a look in nature, the seeker as well. Nature is a vibrating pattern of energy just the same as anything else. It's vibrating dualistically and there couldn't be a manifestation if it didn't vibrate just as well. Every day without light, or good day, or light without darkness, or light without summer, or even without stillness.

So that's a vibration too. And what have we done there? We put the label of day, night, winter, summer, hot, cold, good, bad. But does nature know anything about day or night? The I am from America, Germany. I am coming from India, from Ramanash. Oh yeah? Yeah. I can see. Where did you hear about this? Where to sit? Here? No. So where did you hear about this? I hear about, I was in the saber shop and then was someone behind me, he is not here now. And I had immediately this sense he should go to Ramana Ashram and then he told me from you And after a while he said, oh you know this person and he gave me your name and yeah.

Fantastic. Then I was going, I'm here to visit my grandchildren and daughter and husband with four kids and so I took the bicycle and came from... I came from Fitzroy. Oh, maybe there will not be a time. I want to see this man. Well, don't worry about the man. It's nothing. It's the message. And that's the problem. We start worshipping the messenger and miss the message. I am the message. Get the message and realize that you are what the message is calling to. You still can't help that that life essence is loving you. Sorry, you can't help it. They love messenger too. That's true. I always felt this presence of Ramana in the ashram.

I always felt his compassionate presence hugging me. She's right. You're right. It's the essence again. Ramana is not there now. Oh, I don't know. The essence, the same essence that pattern, shape and form is still that same essence. So one essence of patterning, shaping and forming is everything. And it can pattern and express in all this variety of possibilities and appearances. Recognise that that essence is right where you are right now. That's what's breathing out. What was it? What did you say? Maybe it is, maybe it is. I was sitting here, I feel... I like to hide it always, yeah? I like to hide. It like to hide.

It doesn't like to hide. It's been obscured by the concepts of thoughts. Are you unaware right now? I'm aware, I'm sweating, I'm aware. So you're aware. Did you have to look for that? You didn't have to say I'm going to find awareness. You just registered and recognised immediately, I'm aware, I'm not unaware, so I must be aware. And that's what they call it. Basic awareness. That's the basic state in which this world and everything else appears on that awareness. Could anything appear without it? No Ramana, no anybody else at all could appear without being on that awareness. If you ask yourself what is wrong with right now and you pause a thought, what can you say without a thought?

You can't say anything at all without a thought. But have you disappeared without a thought? Have you stopped breathing? Has your heart stopped beating? Hair and finger? All those things are happening but thought has stopped. So you recognise that you are prior to thought in that moment. Talk about going prior to the mind, and that's the moment when you are, when you're not thinking about a thing. So the next thought that comes up must come up on what was there when thought was stopped. And that was that prior, that pattern of awareness, pure awareness. You couldn't think of Ramana, me, anybody else or anything at all without that basic awareness.

And it's no thing that you can grasp with a thought. No thing is in realm. When they say nothing, people think, oh it's a fact you can avoid. But nothing means no thing. All things have shape and form and pattern This manifestation is made up of things And it's all appearing inside. And it's coming out of the unmanifest. Space is the emptiness. Space is the emptiness. And space is full of things, isn't it? Now, can something come from nothing? Can something come from nothing? Not really. No. So all these things, including you, me and everything, there's no thing appearing as thing. Is what? I'm so quick, I need to get it.

And we in the family, we speak always German and English. I'm not so quick getting it. This last sentence again. It's all no-thing. Because something cannot come from nothing. Though it's appearing as. So it's appearing as things. But that's just how it appears. That's not its reality. Its reality is still that no-thing. In that space, the Buddha's called it a cognising emptiness, not that we cognise emptiness. But the emptiness is doing the cognising, it's suffused with intelligence, the cognising of knowing. And he said emptiness is form. Pointing out that all these patterns, shapes and forms are emptiness. Pointing out that the forms, all these, can't be anything other than the emptiness.

You're taking yourself into all these, we all take ourselves to be something. Which we're not. It'll still appear to be so, but if you know the truth about it, A, you're going to get locked into the belief that you're a separate entity, you're an individual, that you're a person, that needs to do this or that. We'll realise that the same thing that brought you into existence, the same essence, is living you, expressing you, patently shaping and forming you right now. You are that, that's the Mahavakya, I am that. I want that. You want that. Take that back to two or more. Without my mind, I am.

Without her mind, she is. Your mind is that too. Everything is one. It's just appearing, shaping, it just brings forms. It's like shadows. So if you think you're the mind, show me your mind. Can you show me a thing called mind? I can show you a thing called mind. Instead of talking about my mind, show me your mind, the thing you think you are. There's nothing solid or substantial there, you've just got a concept. I thought mind. No, true. Aren't you a little more than a concept? Yeah, I do. You are that life essence that's animating that body, that's enabling concepts to form. So, why are we here for?

When we are emptiness, have to do nothing. Why are we here for? This is my question. You came here to find out you were nothing, didn't you? When you find that out, you can relax and let the livingness happen. I tell you my deepest questions are to this is a walking in between contradictions. The one is this one and the other one is I'm here for doing something. This body is here on earth to make experiences with my mind and also with the earth The The

I need to help something here and do so. Or I need to be quiet and just do nothing. It happens like it will happen, you know.

This is always a little bit contradiction in me. What is really my part to do here? Well, when did you begin? Go back. When did you begin? When did you begin? When did you come into this world? When did you begin? Second second, 1960. Did you believe you were born? Yeah. But you can't remember your birth, can you? No. Yeah. But I'm not sure, maybe a part of me remembers, but not my consciousness. My... The awareness? Yeah. Well... Yeah. Where did... you know, you think you began at birth? No. No, you didn't begin at birth. All this was done by you. You were going before that.

Go back as far as you can, father and father. That life essence that patted me through your father enabled a little microscopic particle, a sperm, to form in that part. You can't see it with the naked eye. The same life essence in your mother enabled another little microscopic particle, an egg or an ovum. Now that ovum was suffused with intelligence. The What was the first thing that came to your mind when you saw the What were you doing about it then? As a believed in entity. What? What were you doing about it then when those two came? Did you say I gotta grow a hand, or an arm, or a brain, or an eye?

I didn't get it properly. You didn't have anything to do with that. Yeah. As an entity, you couldn't do nothing. It was intelligence doing it spontaneously. Yeah, yeah. Where did this idea of you, the doer, the person, come from? If you weren't doing anything about the braille. The blueprint was in those two coming together, it was the blueprint. Yeah. The pattern in the jeans, the pattern shaped the fur too. Yeah. When do you think you came into it? Normally little children get this kind of... Chintzy, chintzy, he is now one and a half years old. My grandson get it when he was maybe one and a half years.

He says chintzy, chintzy to himself. Yes, exactly. Kids are very close to it. Then we get conditioned by our parents, schools and society. So we get secured. So at that stage you didn't know anything about it, but we learnt words. We humans have the capacity of reasoning. That's the capacity humans have, but other animals, birds, insects don't have that particular capacity. They have other capacities. A bird has a capacity of eyesight better than yours, a capacity of flying, we don't have that natural capacity. I Am a Little Tiger Club. If I go stripes in my furrows, I'm gonna give me a bit of camouflage or make up with a present.

They don't know anything about that. But what gives them that innate intelligence energy that's living you and breathing you and everything else in this universe? It's doing that whole lot. Doing that what? Doing everything. The intelligence does everything. It's breathing you right now. Breathing you beating your heart growing your hair and your fingers What are you doing I not doing anything about those things You not telling yourself I got to take another Am I Am I Am That I is the ego, the self-centred, the reverent one. We've got John there. Yes, true. But in this world here, in this mindset we are living in, we can really do it without the ego?

Yes. You want to experience? You promise? You promised me that you would perfect this. I tell you the ego is a fiction. There is no such thing as an ego. It's a conceptual image you've taken on board. It hasn't got any power. And we can investigate that and look and see that there's an image. The ego becomes a reference point, the self-centred ego becomes a reference point, which relates everything to that ego. So everything is relative to that ego. And relativity, relationship, is dualism. There's absolutely no duality and nonduality. None whatsoever. But we've taken the belief there is by formulating this ego. But when this is a collective concept, but this is in this place we are living here in Australia, in Germany, this is a collective concept.

A concept. Yeah, it's a collective concept. It's not only my concept, it's all about me and everybody is referring to that. Yes, exactly. You need it very much to... That's what we're saying here, get out of the trap. That's what Ramana did. What is trap? The trap that we are all trapped into this belief. Concept. It's a cage. People like Ramana and Nisargadatta and all those, they got out of the trap and that's what they're pointing to. They're telling you can do the same. But we don't see that. We think if we bow to them, pray to them and repeat the mantra, they're going to come and give us something.

Total crap! You've got to do it yourself. Yeah. That's what they did. Yeah. So that's what you need to do. Look along the lines I'm pointing to and save yourself. And you can be free of it. I can be what? Free of it? You can be free of this thing. Yeah. Yeah. This is also a contradiction in me. The one side knows it is true, the other side knows, I am living here in this society and this only works, you know, I do education for people and things and it works all on this ego concept. All society and things is working on this ego concept.

What are the... I want to live. I can feel hungry, like on that, sitting at the street and saying, I have no concept or what. Yeah, this is really a contradiction in me. I can sort of resonate with you because my experience is that people, some people with, you know, people with big egos have accomplished some big things in the world. Yeah, accomplished big things, they achieved things. You know if you have a big ego you can people with big egos have created some big things You think they had a conflict with that with the ego Yeah, good point. They had to have a good sense of self.

They had to believe that they were capable of achieving it. And that was a concept associated with self. Probably room for another one. Rachel. I'll be happy to sit here. Could they have lifted a finger? Could they have turned a screw? Could they have moved, have a thought at all? They couldn't have done it without that. Without that life essence? No. So what's doing it? The ego, the thought, the mind or the life essence? Folks in combination. Comfort. So my question is, isn't it possible for those great accomplishments to happen without any egos, without any identification? It certainly is. They just happen. Yes. Yeah. The people who believe in egos, they think they're doing it, they don't.

The ego is a total fiction. It has no substance or any independent nature. So it just rolls on of its own accord, sort of. It just continues to roll on. Okay, so then I'm wondering... It's all spontaneous, it's moment to moment, not even a moment. So it seems to me that if there's this energy that just continues to create and roll on on its own, I can't believe that it really likes to or is responsible for a lot of the really bad stuff that's happening here. I am here to say that Dr. Foggy is so painful. So what is that about? Where is the judge from, is it good or bad?

Me. Or the people who are suffering, you know, around the world. Like suffering, just suffering. It's like, wait a minute, it's hard to conceive. All the suffering comes about from relating to disbelieved in ego. It's only you made to be anxious. Only you made to be fearful. Only you made to be full of self-pity. Depressed, unhappy. Me is the cause of all my psychological problems. They're the effects of the cause me. That's all the so-called karma is, is cause and effect. What happens if I investigate? Ask the simple question, can there be an effect without a cause? Have a look for me and see if there is such a thing there with any substance or any individual thing.

We ask you to look along these lines and see that. Everybody is seeing right now. Everybody is hearing right now. I can do that. I guess it's about, you know, there's so many people who don't know this and can't do that and aren't doing that. So I can relate to what she's saying. What do I do then? I know it's a stupid question but it comes. If you ask yourself what's wrong with right now but don't think about it, pause the thought, what can you say? You can't say anything without a thought. But have you stopped breathing? Has your heart stopped beating? Have your hair and fingernails stopped growing?

Food being digested? Cells being replaced? All those functions going on and the thought has ceased. So in that moment you're prior to thought, you're beyond prior to the mind. And the next thought that comes up must come up on what was there when thought has stopped. So that what was there when thought was stopped is no thing, it's that pure total awareness, not the thought-up entity or something. So there's nothing like to consciously do, there's nothing to drum up and organise to help put it together. The same thing that's breathing your heart and make whatever your next activity is. Yeah. But I think what Bob is pointing to is the importance of the message.

So the message maybe is what's required in this world, is the constant retelling of this message of who we are and what our true nature is. And that will lead ultimately to world peace and disidentification with the ego. What does world peace crap mean? Saint sages and seers down the road of the ages is there any peace The nature of the mind is to vibrate and vibrate to all If we find peace then the world will find peace There will be peace in the world But that's future. People look for peace of mind. You'll never ever get peace of mind because it's the nature of the mind to vibrate.

It always vibrates in the inter-right opposite. The peace is when the mind is not. But if you're not identified with the mind, then aren't you at peace? Yes, you're not with the mind. They call it the peace that passes all understanding. It's not something that can be grasped with a concept. The natural peace is there. But looking for peace of mind, it's the nature of the mind to vibrate. What's your mind to see? See the good or bad, pleasant, painful, happy, sad, loving, hate, always in any right or opposite. And the boundary we put in are the word. And the word is not the real.

Take the word water, try and drink the word. Wash yourself with the word, swim in the word. Does the word fire burn your mouth? This word me or I is just another conceptual image of the energy of beliefs going on and we think it is something solid and substantial. I get you. That's yours, take it. That suffering concept, this is really difficult and that what helps me with Bob, because it's a natural compassion, there's nothing wrong with that, everybody wants everyone to be happy and at peace in the world. But that's the point, we want to change the world. That is again us who wants to change something.

And when Bob is pointing out that we think, oh, such a bad people like Hitler or Holocaust, and then he puts it into a context, like a big tsunami wave comes and wipe up the shore and then life rebuilds itself, or the war, you know, so many people died, and then the little bug killed even more, and then the whole civilization were wiped off. There was an ice age and all this. And then from the little me, the little tiny human perspective, yes, day is good, night is wrong. Then pleasure is good and pain is wrong. But from the 50 million light years, it's nothing wrong, it's all perfect.

And the suffering is also part of it. Why is Bill delivering this message? Pardon? Why are you delivering your message? Who wants to know? Well, the I that I wants to know, but it's like there's something in your message that needs to be retold. And that feels like that's been your purpose. It needs patterns, shapes and forms to express through. Related to the ego, we all think I'm doing this. This house was an idea in somebody's mind. The bricks that formed it was an idea. The television, the computer, all ideas. People were saying, I made that or I invented that. But couldn't they have lifted a finger, turned a screw, drawn a line without that life essence?

So the life essence expressing through that pattern, utilising that pattern, through all these evolving patterns and things that it does, is doing a lot. Yeah, so they couldn't have done it without that like-listenance, but they couldn't have done it also without that sense of self either, because they had, they had, they, yeah. Because, mmm. Hey, pause the thought. They tried to, um. What's breathing you right now, the sense of self? What's beating your heart, the sense of self? I know what you're pointing to, yes, it's not me, I know that. Rachel, was it Mozart's ego that wrote the music or did it just happen? No, it came through him.

But it wasn't his ego that wrote the music. He was saying, oh I wrote this or I did this, actually did it. Yeah, but no, it wasn't. You know... What you're feeling there is the stubbornness of the self, not wanting to let go. The stubbornness of the... the resistance of the me, wanting to hang on, wanting to hang on for dear life. No, no, I'm here, I'm here. Don't ignore me. Yeah, but I created my sense of self in such a certain way. You haven't created anything. That's just... that's just the... Everything after I am is created. Yes, because everything after I am I have created has created my definition and my sense of self.

There's nothing solid and it's all spontaneous, there's not time there. I understand what you're saying. I'm just, I'm arguing for the sense of self. I know that it's illusionary, I know that it's created by me, but I've only had to create, well, created... Well, if you're arguing for the sense of self and there's no self, it's futile. But I have to create that sense of self in order to operate efficiently in the world, in order to create what I wanted to create. Show me the sense of self that's creating the world that's doing it. What substance is what self-self? So, in order to do my job, I had to create certain sense of self after I am...

Look, I'm not trying to alter the opinions or thoughts. If you think that way, go ahead. But if you move to question it, do a question and have a look. Yeah. One of the things we say here is the false cannot stand up to investigation. The I Am the One, I Am the One. I Am Happy. Well it was deliberately chosen. No, I deliberately chose it. After thinking what I should choose. And the thought I deliberately chose it, where did that come from? From my mind. Alright, I'll stop. Can the thought I see, see? Shut your eyes, look around and see what you consider the thought.

Can the thought I hear, hear? Can the thought I am aware, is that your awareness? Can the thought I choose, choose? Do you realise the thought can't do any, it's that animating life essence, that intelligence that enables those thoughts to appear. And it's doing a lot, it's the one essence appearing, pattern and shape and forming, and it's everything. There's not two, it's not njua we talk about. One without a second. Not even one. Because even the idea of one implies there could be other than one. The whole idea of taking credit for everything. It's a great argument, you know, isn't it? The whole idea that there's something there doing it, choosing it, that's separate, is the cause of all the strife and conflict.

What's causing me suffering is a belief in this belief in identity or sense of self. That's what's causing me suffering. Well if it is, what are you going to do? But if I lose that sense of self, then the suffering ceases. Yes. Is that where you're suffering in? Why don't you...? Well who said I was suffering The thing is I have to create The thing is I have to create a sense of self in order to operate in the world in order to do my job in order to Rachel, it's the same, there is no difference. What happens is you realise there is no me.

There is no centre to the universe, so there is no centre here either. I am here either. We are just seeing the size of the universe. Is there a center there? And how big you are or I am? So when there is no center, you realize it's just congested energy. Ego is just belief made by the mind and made apparently congested. So this energy, when it starts flowing freely, when you do investigation, you know, you research and see, oh, is there entity here? No. You still work. I didn't lose my job yet. If I lose it, who cares? Like, the job goes on, I still do my work, I'm still, I do nothing.

I do nothing. But I'm not sitting here all the time. I still get up in the morning at certain time, I go to work, go back to work, and do much more to what I used to do before. I sleep only three hours a night, and it's enough for me. So in the past I couldn't do that. I work 12 hours a day, then I go home, I do this stuff because I love it, I do something I love. My life I live because it's here and now, wherever I am, at work, here, elsewhere, it's always here and now. I cannot live it, you cannot live it.

Just realize you cannot live it, you cannot live the space. You are always, wherever you go it's gonna follow you. It's always there. So you're saying to me that you're living as awareness. I am creating a conscious so that the difference between living as awareness or a conscious... There is no suffering, there is no indifference. Can you get away from this awareness? No. Well you must be living as awareness too. Yeah. And think of ants or bees. The pattern, shape and form, you're taking the pattern, shape and form to be real. But it's not substantial at all. That's just vibrating energy when you break it down.

The difference between consciousness and awareness. Consciousness and awareness. You're not unaware right now, you're aware. Just look around the room without awareness, without labelling anything, and you know what it is immediately without labelling it. As soon as you're labelled, that's so and so, you've brought consciousness into it. Leave that consciousness, don't start the story, don't activate it. It's not going to get you down. When you start the story, the story will go on and on and on. Conceptual, please. And the nature functions without the centre. Like you go to the societies like ants or bees. They are forming the whole societies. They are working their asses out whole day long.

And they don't need anything to operate that working. It's just happening, nature knows what to do. And we can work in the same way. Because if you need to do something specific at work, the thought will arise and the body will follow the thought and it will be done. It's just that we have the habits, no, I have to take responsibility, I have to take credit, I did it. It's totally unnecessary, it actually is a burden. As she said, it's contracted energy that keeps you asleep for nine hours instead of three or four. And it will happen when the body needs the toilet, it will happen.

The salt will come, you don't have to. Yeah, it's just like in the nature, it works. It's just, you know it, you have total understanding of it, you just have to give it a go. The ring doesn't say I just blew, like, you know, I was just on steroids, I just had a bit of a blow. Sun doesn't say I shine, it just shines, but doesn't claim anything. So there's nothing here to claim, that's just a false concept implemented by our parents, by the society. So, there's no me. When there's a realization there's no me, everything happens by itself. So, there's no one to claim something.

So, just be the nature. We are the nature. We can't be anything else. So there no reference point in the nature And actually the good thing is that what Bob showed me a few months ago that was the look at the conceptual Pointing to nature These things are happening spontaneously, they don't have to be taken on personally. Nothing, not even the suffering of the world, it doesn't have to be taken personally. It's nothing personal. Nobody can offend you, ever, because they also relate to the image they have of you. Nobody can touch you. It's just natural expression going on, it's just flow of love or life.

Quite high. Well, as consciousness, isn't there just a natural compassion there anyway? I mean consciousness, not her consciousness, because everything is consciousness. Natural compassion, yeah. Sat Chit Ananda, being knowing, loving to be. Or another way of putting being, awareness of being is bliss. Being, I want to have an affectionate awareness of being, be warned. That's compassion. Nisargadatta puts it, you know, he says, When I know I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I know I am everything, that applies to the pure intelligence vibrates, Everything in the nothing, always in the pairs of opposite. But in the equilibrium, in the middle of it, it's okay. So it's really just the image, the separate image you have of yourself.

The mind comes in and creates division, duality, and that's where all the anger and the... Yes, it's all just like when the child comes in. We'll go back to the little child. When the little child is born, it hasn't got any words. Watch the little child the way it's functioning. So it's seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. It's not discriminating anything. If it's attracted to something, it doesn't like to push it away. At about the age of two, two and a half, the capacity of reasoning develops, which is the capacity humans have, which other animals, birds, insects don't have that particular capacity to the extent we do.

So in that capacity of reading the little child starts to learn words. Before that he's got no words. And you want to realise from that, which we don't, which we should, that every word you have ever spoken has been acquired or learnt. There's no word that is your natural state. They're all things you've added onto yourself. And we've taken the word to be the real. And the word is never the real. It's a good way of describing things or utilising things, That's just a concept. No good at all. So a little child, when he starts to learn words, his parents telling him, you're Little Johnny, and then he realises, I am Little Johnny, because he learns those words too, I.

What's the other word for I? Isn't it not I? Now I'm Little Johnny, he looks out there before he's seeing everything as it is, now he's reasoning, that's not me. That's not I. That's when the sense of separation comes upon us. Nisargad tatham. Manifestation, as they tell us, is Maya, it's illusion, and it's transient. It's constantly changing. So it's not going to be there forever. So these good things, no matter how much you love them, how much you want to be dear to them and all the rest, they're not going to last. They're going to change. Some way they'll move away, you'll be bored with them, or they'll die.

They're certainly going to change, because that's the nature of it. But we don want it to go So now what he trying to do Sittinging believe instead of acting spontaneously he relating to this me He thinks he can alter it modify it correct it I like it He wants to keep it Not knowing it's not going to go, when it starts to go, he resists it from going. Trying to resist it, keep it there. Resistance is conflict. Any resistance you are in, you're in conflict. And any conflict you are in is disease. That's the anxiety, the fear, the guilt, is that dis-ease that comes up when you're in this conflict.

Something comes up he doesn't like, the same thing happens. I don't want this, meaning it resists it. Conflict and dis-ease. That's where all our psychological suffering comes about. There's constant conflicts that go on. Now have a look in nature. Nature is myeric, it's illusionary, it's dualistic, patterning, and it's always displaying in the pairs of opposites. But nature hasn't formed an ego. So day doesn't fight with night. Silence doesn't fight with sound. Winter doesn't fight with summer. They come and move along, take their turn, move on. It's relative. But we're in this constant conflict all the time. That's why we need to look out and recognise that this ego is a total fiction.

Not relating it to anything. To recognise that you've got no cause to relate to, can there be an effect? Just like in nature then. Where's the effect going to life if you're not relating to the cause? Try it and that's what they say. Look at these things and see for yourself. So it's the image of yourself you have that you have to defend and you have to keep going. But you don't. You recognise a lot of this falls into place naturally and things that you'd see would be conflict before. They'll sort themselves out. Zen monk in the 16th century called it the unborn Buddha mind.

He says everything is perfectly resolved in the unborn mind. Why exchange the unborn for thought? And as we do, that unborn mind is what we call pure awareness. Natural, non-conceptual evidence. Pure awareness. And a signal. And pure awareness takes place in this room instantly, effortlessly, everywhere we look. I think it's time to mention the Blue Sea Bob. It's really important. He gives this huge story so that we go down to the Blue Sea and investigate to see if it's blue. We go down and have a look. And we take our glass down and dip it into the sea and sure as eggs it's clear as.

And we stand back and it's still blue. Having investigated, we know that it's clear. Why do you give us this story? That story is to assist with or to make clear that when you examine the I or the reference point or the ego and find out that it's a phantom, and then you stand back, there is still this Bill and this I and this me, this notion of I. You're still at work arranging these files and whatever. But it's all spontaneous. When you say, are you unaware right now? And then I say, no, I'm aware. That awareness is just spontaneous. That awareness cannot be five seconds ago or five seconds hence.

So that awaring, I'm going to call it, just arises spontaneously in the immediacy right now and where would the notion of I appear except in that same spontaneity, pointing very solidly that the I, whether it arises or not, and the seeing and the seen are all just one. It's just undeniably one and that's really what this is all about. It's not two. And that oneness, then all the questions are resolved. There can't be a me if there is one. If there was a me, there'd be me and it. There can't be a me, there can't be time, there can't be duration, there can't be anything.

There's just what is. And you're saying that's everything, all the things that we're discussing, it's in that. That one center that keeps pulsing each time, that's all that there is. I'll try and nail it down. On that blue sea one, you go down and recognize the sea, there's no blue water there, though it appears the same with the water in the Mirage, you can drive up and then the water disappears. When was there ever any water there? When was the sea ever blue? Never ever was, never could be. So the difference is now you know the truth and that's the scriptural statement, know the truth and the truth will set you free.

So you no longer going to believe in the different things, that is appears to be blue or there's water in the mirror. There still appear to be but you know the truth about it and you're free of the belief. When you know the truth about yourself, you're free of that belief too. You're a separate entity, you're an individual, you're a person. That's all. It doesn't matter whether you do it or whether you don't, you have to investigate it. There is a place for ego there, in one. You might skin off the snows here. But if you move to do it, something will bring you here to look at this stuff.

Something will bring you here to look, to investigate it and see for yourself. And then the question, why am I here? What is the purpose of that pattern to appear in the world? Let's find out, let's discover. If there is no self-centred, we block it and hang on to things and be really an obstacle and resistance, life will naturally flow where it needs to flow. It will give a hand whoever needs to have the hand given or it will accomplish an art or whatever naturally without the resistance that blocks it. So the purpose of my life is just to be here and now and sit on this carpet.

What is going to be in 10 years? Let's find out. I have no interest or business or ideas of where I want to be or what I want to do. I'm totally surrendered at life intelligence. Just play, show me, dance through it. That's beautiful. Yeah. And what is freedom? Because I don't have to now, I don't have to feel guilty or I don't have to worry or plan or have visions or create things. I am very happy to be here. I totally hear what you're saying. You were saying that when you were younger, which you're already really young, that you had this idea of this career, that you were doing this job, which is a really good idea.

And it wasn't mine. It was a thought. That's what I want to know about. Do you feel that you were in this state then, when you went through five years of university, to get to where you are, which is a really great place, It does facilitate a more relaxed attitude about it. So in the very beginning, did you have that same attitude where you went, oh, I think I'll just... Or you kind of said, you know what, this is going to give me a lot of freedom? No, I had no idea. This is the thing, the most transforming experiences throughout my life, they came as a persistent, irresistible thought that I had nothing to do, I don't know where they came from.

There was in Poland at that time, it was not allowed for women to become navigators. It was forbidden by law. And I still got that thought and I never knew any seaman. So I don't know where it came from. It was obviously not the idea that I could conceive as. And I couldn't resist it. So the following of that thought happened. And few other turning points in my life was just the same Spontaneous happening and irresistible following So there is so clear that there was no doer in it that nature was doing it I didn't know of course, there was a moment. I had no power to resist it.

There was no way to resist it. Do you feel like it's been like that most of your life then, even when you were younger? It was like that all my life, although for the longest time I would take credit. I had this dream, it was my dream and I persuade that dream. I would take credit for it. But now, as I honestly look at it, there was absolutely no doer, no persuasion. There was spontaneous thoughts and spontaneous actions following. There was no me, although I believed it was. But there wasn't. Not for a moment. A living example. That's lovely. That's the state of enlightenment that Katrina is in, because it's not common.

No, there is no enlightenment. In anyone's life, under major changes, we have no choice in them. Most of the big changes in our lives just happen. I have to think about that one. Very good. Yeah, it's just one honest look and then you see that it was taught, it wasn't a doer. And the effort that it took to study and different grades, etc. was just... Yeah, just the same essence. I was always kind of drawn to it, to nonduality. Since childhood I was looking, seeking, sitting in Zen monasteries and ashrams. That was just natural love towards the truth. I could not make it or bring myself to feel it.

It was just the way it expresses. So when you were studying in uni, when you were going through those five years, what was it like then? You were just like, you'd wake up and go, oh, I'll study, I don't know if I'm going to study. What about that effort? That's what I'm inquiring about. That effort, that conscious effort of, okay, da-da-da-da, yep, that's right. It just did what needed to be done. It's not that you do nothing. No, no. I had to get up in the morning and put on the uniform and walk through the beach to the school. We were inspired to do it.

It was a force sort of that. You were just doing. Yeah, same as I needed to eat, you know, when the stomach is empty, it gives you a thought, cook and eat. Same as I needed to pass the exams, so I had to put a little cheat sheets or learn. And it was effortless, it's just all taken care. It looks like you're doing stuff, but you have this thing surrounding you, this understanding of this is happening. But at that time I had no idea, so I was suffering of anxiety, oh my gosh, what if I don't pass this exam, oh what is gonna happen, I'm gonna be kicked off the school, or what if I don't find a job, there are no women doing that job, so what is...

I had all that psychological shit going on all the time. Not all the time, but a lot of time. It was there because I was taking credit for what was effortlessly happening. Right. The actual functioning is seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. That's going on right there spontaneously. The ING gives us something that's happening right in this immediacy. Not was or not will be, it's going on right now. Seeing. Everybody is seeing. And the thought comes up, I see. And I see the chair. As soon as the thought I see comes up, what you've loaded onto this thought I see, this conceptual image you've got, this ego, now thinks that it's seeing.

You've formed a subject. I see the chair. That's become the object. So subject-object duality are appearing on the seeing. But can there be a seer, a subject, without seeing? And can there be the seeing, the object without seeing? You realise there can't be, so seeing is not divided at all, only conception. And we fall into the trap. Thinking is the same. I think, I think this thought. Feeling, tasting, touching, smelling. All divided into duality. But it's not actually divided at all. It's thought. It's the one essence that's expressing everything, seeing things. And while we go into the division the conception of I like this or I don like that instead of being the liking letting it come whichever way it will We seemingly divide it and separate it It a conflict Nobody is doing anything, anytime, anywhere.

No one can do anything, Bob. Well, as I said at the start, I'm not talking to anybody. I'm not talking to any mind. I'm talking to that I am that I am. The I Am is the sense of presence that translates or expresses through the mind as the thought I Am. Just to this, nothing else. So it's not a body-mind entity, it's the essence of that, that happening, shaping and forming that body-mind entity. It's the one essence that's appearing as everything. So when you're talking to Bill, you're not actually talking to Bill, you're talking to the I Am that's expressing through Bill. There's no one here talking to it at the same time, though it appears to be so, just the same as the sea appears to be blue.

When you look at it closely, pardon? You're talking to yourself. Yeah. I'm just clarifying it. I'm just like... It's the one self appearing and expressing, patterning, shaping, forming, everything. That's what we don't get. So what I'm arguing with you, I'm really arguing with myself. Enjoy it. Yeah. The sense of presence is impersonal. Yes. Look, is there anybody who is not aware of presence right now? When they say I'm not unaware, they must be aware. Are you aware any other place than in this presence? Non-conceptual, ever-fresh presence-awareness, the Buddha's called it. Just this, nothing else. But we put all sorts of concepts on it, and time, bring time into it, And then it becomes conceptual, not ever fresh, but some static time-bound thing.

It loved into it. What's the other one? I didn't use that either. I can't teach you anything and I can't tell you anything. All I can do is point to it and ask you to look to where we're pointing to to see for yourself. Because there's nothing that anybody can ever give you and there's nothing you can ever get. Because what we point to is nonduality, it's one without a second. So who's going to get what, when, why or how? It's already that. That's the Maha-Vedka, I am that, the art, that, this is that. And we know that in our language. We say that's a chair, that's a carpet, that's Bill, that's so-and-so, that's somebody else.

We're putting labels on the that-ness. And what is that? That's got no front, no back, no height, no depth. But you can't negate it. There's no becoming. There's no, I'm going to get this next week, I'll just balk a few more times, read a few more books, Listen to a few more YouTube videos. This is it. And that's that. I'm a very, very happy to be here. And I'm very happy to be here. I'm very happy to be here. No thing. And the no thing is the everything. They call it the absolute. What's the absolute? Isn it totality Can you take anything away from the absolute It wouldn be absolute would it Can you add anything to the absolute It wouldn't be absolute.

You can't add to it, you can't take away from it. That's what another one of them was saying. If from the perfect, the perfect remains. So no matter how it's appearing, Pat in English, wrestling, to you and me it might seem odd or uneven or whatever, but it's still perfection. Being that, will thoughts naturally fall away, become less and less? If you investigate something and you see the falseness of it, once you see something as false, you can never truly believe it, out of habit it might come up. I Am the One, I Am the One. Depression, anxiety and all that falls off. That's important.

Whoever was depressed, anxious, had some attachment to something, drinking or whatever, it just falls off. You've got to understand that thought is not the enemy. It can be very useful. It's not the enemy at all. But because it's a vibration, it's become very problematic. Thought that tells me I'm not good enough, it tells me I'm fearful, it tells me I'm unhappy, this, that and the other. Thought can be utilised, it's self-destructive in that way because it's vibrating in the opposite all the time. Look at your mind and see how mechanical it is. If you're not in the past which is memory, you're in the future which is anticipation, imagination.

And somewhere within that mind will be the good or bad, happy, sad, loving, hating, positive, negative, what's the thought, see how it vibrates in any other way. And the boundary we put upon it are the words. The limitations are the words. And the words are not the thing. So, you're in a totally thought-free state anyway, aren't you? Thoughts come and go but don't start. Yes, of course they do. Where are yesterday's thoughts? Is there any thought pasted in your head? And thought, feeling and emotion are one and the same thing, three different aspects, just like steam, water and ice are different aspects in H2O. But we start working on our thoughts and our feelings and our emotions, and putting that to the side and recognising the one.

I think the ideal is a thought-free state. Yeah, but people get that wrong. When people hear you've got to be thought-free, people think they've got to push every thought out. But it's not. Just let the thought be free. Where you're not attaching it to anything, or fixating on anything. Unfixated awareness. One of the Buddhist statements is, be utterly awake. With the five senses wide open. That's seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling equally. Most of us are in the head most of the day. And to the exclusion of the seeing, hearing, and tasting, they're going on in the background. And there might be something valuable going on, and that we miss out on because we don't, we're stuck in the head stuff.

So I said, be utterly awake with the five senses wide open. And he goes on to say, be utterly open with unfixated awareness. We are not fixating on one thing, then you equally remember seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, and feeling. You can't be thought-free. I mean, no more than you can be hearing-free or seeing-free. But it's just that we grab certain thoughts and stick them away and say, well, that's me, that's me, or that's something to work on, or whatever it is, and start building up all these ideas. If you're not fixating on them, they come and do their purpose and then move on. If you're fixating on keeping them there when it shouldn't be there, I called everything else on it.

So that's how the separate self becomes solidified. Yes. Seemingly solid, but it hasn't got any substance or any independent nature. It's a total fiction. So in that dream do we live as objects really? We sort of live as objects, lost in thought? You are life itself, not subject or object. There are expressions, patterns appearing on it. You are the life. Only the one life. Life continually lives on life. There's no room for death in it whatsoever. Out of life, my life is continually going. But there's a tree, it's coming to picture to me, the tree and every leaf at the street is different. Yes. Yeah, this is individualized, or not?

That's the wonderment of this, it's pattern, shape and form in all diversity, in every appearance and every possibility. Yeah. But it's still the one essence that's expressing through it. Yeah, that's true. It just shows how creative and how intelligent and how beautiful this life is. It never repeats itself. It's just dancing, showing, look at me, I'm just so beautiful. A lot of people call us God and that's where it gets skewed because they've got the concept of what God is. Some of you might be atheists, some of us agnostics, some of us Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Buddhists, Instead of talking about God, you're related to what your traditional belief is and it's going to get that warped idea from that on it.

See, fresh and new, I call it intelligence energy and that's just a label too. When I'm talking about intelligence, I'm not talking about intellects. I'm saying look out there in nature, see the way that nature is functioning. There's galaxies forming, planets moving around, Earth going around the sun, seasons coming and going. Doesn't it imply that nature itself is suffused with an innate intelligence? There's not some old guy out there on a cloud, you could pray to him, he'll do this and he's gonna beat the hell out of you if you don't. It's suffusing every particle and you are no different from nature. It's that same intelligence in you that's breathing you right now.

You think you're breathing, it's beating your heart. It's digesting your food, it's growing your hair and your fingernails. All those things are happening without you having to think about them as entities, replacing cells in your body. Doesn't it imply that that body is suffused with that innate intelligence also? We take it to the real, this is me, I'm separate, I'm a part, I'm an individual, I'm a person. Or I'm inferior, I'm not good enough. You are as beautiful as these galaxies going around the sun, as these leaves or flowers. You are absolute perfection because you are the same life essence. There is nothing ever wrong with you.

You are perfect. Because if you look out, everything is God, everything is perfect. There is nothing you need to correct or change about yourself. But it's funny, when I see you I think that's true, when I see me I say no. But it's... it's impossible. I can say yes, yes, yes, but in myself it's... It's impossible that you are anything else than that. It's absolutely impossible. Everything is that. This is that, this is that. You are that also. It's impossible not to be that. So you have to agree to it. You must agree to it. It's obvious. You have to. You have no choice. It's just a belief that gets in the way.

You are something other. Yes. And you are not good enough or you are not beautiful or intelligent or whatever. This is just bullshit. It's just thoughts. We always get the crunch time, around about now, where the question has to be addressed, have you looked seriously and earnestly into whether this reference point or I or Bill is real? If that not done the questions will just be arising endlessly and concepts will just pile up on top of each other and you come to a conclusion and that conclusion is also a concept There won be any questions if you see that I Am There is no relief, there is no delight, there is no epiphany.

You got to see that there is no me, no reference point. That's what it's all about because then how can there be any duality? Or as Bob says, there is no duality in nonduality. You got to look. That image that you have that you are not perfect. It's also imperfect. Well, it's perfection. Yeah, this I can accept but not... I get up in the morning and I look at all my emails and there's a shitload of work to be done. And I arrange my day just like Rachel does. And off I go swearing and carrying on. And then my lover gets up and she makes me breakfast and I think I'm in the flow.

And then I go down to the shop and I do shopping and I run into a pillar and do four grand's worth of damage to my car. I mean, none, none, none, perfect. That's it mate. I'm done. Perfect. It doesn't matter if you've seen that there is no or no reference point, you know, it's just all happening. You can't escape, if you investigate you can't escape the natural... No, not if you start from the fact that you are that, you know. Like Bob says, Bob's very literal, start from the fact that you are that. You are that. You can't escape that. It's like a viewpoint.

The body's a reference point. It's not a viewpoint. It's not a viewpoint, Rachel, because there are no concepts there. Start from the fact that you are that. There are no concepts there. There's not a concept. You want to make one? That's okay. I'm Rachel. I'm not what Bill's talking about. But start from the fact that you are that. Let's concept this. When this reference point disappears, I'm still back. Right. Right. Vor it gang, vor ahter it gang. And there's no static reference point, there's no static point anywhere. Just the same as there's no self-nature to anything. So there can't be time even. Time's a mental concept.

You ask yourself is there a past if I don't think about it? Drop a thought for a moment and what can you say without a thought? You can't say there's a past or a future. And then your people will say I was in the past. I say try and actually live a moment ago. You can't go back and live a moment, you can't live last week, you can't live last year. But you can recall it. And in recalling it, the only actuality you're giving is what you're giving right now. Because there's nobody in this room who can tell me what you thought of a minute ago now, unless you recall it.

It's already gone and finished with you. The same with the future, you can anticipate and imagine what you're going to do when you leave here next week, but you can't live a moment in the future. So instead of trying to train them now as they tell you, try and get out of it. It's always a spontaneous immediacy. Spontaneous means when does now begin? They say it's beginning right now, when does it end? Well you say it's ending right now. So it hasn't got any duration. There's no duration and it's all taking place in space, finite ascent into space, finite as a circumference or a static point in space, anywhere we can envision it probably can't.

So it's got no volume either. So if there's no duration and no volume, can there be a path? No path, can there be a destination? Where does that leave you? Right here, right now, present and aware. Sure? But would you describe presence as stillness? You could call it stillness, right? But people started looking for stillness and silence, and realised there's more stillness in this room than what there is moved. And there's more stillness outside in space than what there is in there. There is more silence in this room than there is sound. Same out there. So the base is the stillness in science in which sounds and movement appear Don is to think about if this is a good thing if this is a bad thing If something is a good thing you can think of it as a good thing And it doesn only mean a bad thing if that good thing isn good for them it means a good thing for other people That is a good thing for them I don think there is a way or another to think about if it is a bad thing If it is a good thing for a person, it means something.

I have heard that many people think about it, for example, they imagine a good thing because they don't know what it is. They think about that person, and this is a blessing. But it is not. This presence-awareness, this being here right now, you've also said Sat Chit Nanda, so being consciousness bliss. Probably most people would have no problem with the being part of it and the consciousness part of it. Where's the bliss? Well, being, not only putting that as being, knowing and loving to be. Do you love to be? Everybody loves to be. You wouldn't be dead for quitting. Loving to be is the bliss.

People I think the problem is we don't feel it. But we don't recognise the qualities. Everything's five ways and the opposite. So we get into the unhappiness, the this, that and the other, but the joy, the nature, this, there. Get the overload off the top, the opposite one will be there, it'll come up there and it's forward. Are you saying because we're not present, we're not feeling it? It's because you're still believing there's an entity there that needs to do something, it's cithering. Where does your happiness come from? Happiness? I don't think much about happiness. Pardon? I don't think much about happiness. No, but it comes up?

Let's put it this way, if I'm in pain I'm not particularly happy. But you're focusing into the pain, you say the pain's the happiest thing, you're not So, I'm not really aware of the other demands, I realise it's there just as much as the pain. Okay. There's still the... I have a problem with the bliss and I'm not feeling it. Most people think they've got to feel bliss, they've got to feel bliss. What do you think bliss is? What is your concept of belief about bliss? It must be something very tasty. Very tasty. Well as I say, it wouldn't be dead for quits. Life must be very tasty, mustn't it?

It might be seeming overloaded with all sorts of concepts and fear and anxiety, but underneath it sits well-being. I hope that there's something tasty there. Well, that would hope and do it right now. Hope implies some future time. Hope and fear, they're the two things. Fear is something you haven't heard. Be with the presence. Get the taste of that presence. So you're saying it is there, basically, I'm just not tasting it. Yes. Because I'm not aware. The whole... Pardon? You are aware. You are aware, but you're not recognising your awareness. I use that in a different sense, but I'm just not... Yes. Focused on it.

Yes, but no, the focus is in all the concepts that are coming up. Non-conceptual awareness. So, because my attention is diffused instead of being focused on what's important, which is the awareness itself, I don't feel the bliss. The actuality. Yeah. Yeah. Focus on the actuality, right here, right now, presence-awareness. You call it effortless living. Yeah. The more one is aware of it or in it, does it manifest more? Use this metaphor Or does it become clearer what it is Go outside on metaphor Go outside on a cloudy day Would you say the sun is seemingly obscured Would you say the sun is not in the sky No.

Why? Because you investigated, you know the sun is always in the sky. But the cloud is seemingly obscured. Now, what forms the cloud? And you realise the sun hasn't got any idea about the cloud. I don't know anything about the cloud, the vastness of the sun compared to the cloud. But if you ask yourself what forms the cloud, have a look and you realise the sun itself forms the cloud. All the sun does is shine. In that self-shining, the heat, the radiance, the bliss of it evaporates water. The water arises and condenses, the steam arises and condenses, and that condensation forms a cloud that seemingly obscures the sun.

Now the cloud, the sun will continue to shine, it might cause a wind to blow or something to blow the cloud away or disperse it or bring it down as rain or ice or ice whatever. But all the sun has done is continued to shine in that radiance, in that heat, that special warmth if you like, compassion or whatever you like to label it. That's the base in essence, not that seemingly of things that have come and obscured it. And what's that life essence that you are is constantly there and what's obscuring it all the time? Isn't it thoughts, concepts, ideas and images? Clouds which are not recognising and have no substance or any independent nature when you investigate them.

Now none of those clouds out there are stuck on the sun, pasted on the sun. They're going to move on, they're going to change, they're going to disperse. And there's no thought stuck in your head. The same thing is that life essence is like, you can acknowledge it like the sun, the vastness of the life essence is there, and what's appearing on it, the little clouds of thoughts, feelings, emotions, all the shit that's appearing on it, and it's like the clouds are obscuring it. But you know there couldn't be a cloud if the sun wasn't shining, and you also know there couldn't be a thought, a feeling or emotion if that life essence wasn't there.

We don't. We think we are separate entities and forget about the life essence. It's the life essence that's available and what appears or disappears on it couldn't be there without it. So you're not going to hate that or anything and leave it as it is. It's all about it. Just to take your analogy, I have no problem with the life essence. Well if you've got no problem with the life essence, you've got no problem. Okay, your analogy with the clouds, okay, so you go outside, it's a cloudy day, there's still some light. Yes. The sun is still coming through. Yes. However... So there's still that life essence there when you're thinking, all the shit's going on in your head too.

Clear. But then the clouds clear away a little bit and you get a ray coming through. Yes. But that's different from a clear blue. You still haven't seen the sun. So my question was, is there more there? Yes. That self-shining ever-fresh presence-awareness will shine in its form. It's not going to stop clouds from appearing and seemingly obscuring it. I Am the One who is the One. Thank you for watching!