Understanding is wordless. Sailor Bob and the ND group. 22 sept 2024

And there is Tibor, and there is Linda, Liz, Zoran, Peter, Henry, Brendan, Dane, Anthony, Mari. I Am the One, I Am the One. They call it the great way. And they tell you the great way is not difficult. And then again they tell you the way that can be spoken about is not the way. So where does that leave you? To those who have no preferences, when love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised. And it must, mustn't it, if you haven't got any thoughts, feelings or emotions? Can it be marred or touched or contaminated in any way, shape or form? Can't.

Simply no thing. Yet, everything is appearing in that no-thing. When they call it appearance and they say the appearance is not the reality, you must recognise that also. What have I without the word? Can I give myself any shape, any name, any form without the word? But can I negate it? Can I say I am not? I can't say I am not, because what would enable it to be said if there wasn't seemingly something that's saying it? So, what's it all expressed in? Words, concepts, ideas, images. What am I without the word? Well, I can't say I am not. But without the word I can't say I am either.

So, there's nothing going to be said without the word. And the word is not the thing. Can the daylight say I am day? Can night say I am night? It can't. But we put those words on it and discriminate it with the word. It tells you again in that Hensing Min, when no discriminating thoughts arise, the old mind ceases to be. With the old mind ceasing to be, where must you be? Somewhere where you've never left, you're still present and still aware. Presence-awareness, which are two labels and the word's not the thing. So what can be touched, what can be heard, what can be contaminated or corrupted?

But we use words and this whole manifestation, we have labels or words for it and discriminate it with the word. And there'd be nothing wrong with that at all if you recognised what they're saying. That the word is not the reality, just labels, patterns, shapes and forms we put on it. The reality is that which is. What is? Anyone who is not being right now you recognise no I am being What Am I being this body or this mind The belief is there because it was never looked into investigated or questioned that I am this person, I am this body, I am this mind, I am this separate entity.

And see all these labels referring to the same thing. Now what have we got? We've got a conceptual image made up of all these words. No wonder we can be fearful, anxious, depressed or unhappy or guilty. Which one of those concepts is real? Which is the actuality? Am I this person? Am I this body? Am I this mind? And I'll say my body, my mind. Well, am I this me? Well, there's no word that I say, and I'm saying many words, that I can say this is it. There's no word can fit it. And they say the description is not the described. And what I'm trying to describe now is not its description and never will be.

But it needs, seemingly needs to be pointed to. In the pointing it might be registered, recognized or seen. And that resonation with it, you get the taste. What am I right here and right now if I'm not thinking about it? Can I say that I am not? I can say it, yeah. But the fact is in the saying it or not saying it, it's still that isness, still that beingness, without the word, without the label. And when they call it non-conceptual, ever-fresh presence-awareness, all descriptions, they're pointing to the reality, the actuality. Without a thought, without a concept, I can't say I am not. I can say I am, but the basic knowing is that that is not it.

That's just another label. And points to the fact that I am not the word. I am prior to the word. And they tell you that in the Bible, in the beginning was the word. And so it all begins from the Word. The Word was with God. And that's the label we put on the Word, that's the beginning, we call the beginning God. All things were made by Him, by the Word. And when you look at that, all the words we're using are that beginningness Word, which we call, take to be God. There was nothing made without the word. And so all this manifestation we've got words on is no thing.

No thing whatsoever. But yet it is absolute. You can't negate any of it. You can't say, I am not. You can't negate your beingness. Can't negate the recognition, the cognising emptiness. The emptiness itself which is knowing and translates into words, concepts, ideas. So what's the problem? When I look at that and believe that I am this separate entity which has the label name on it, but given to me by my parents and I take it to be this label, this person, this body, this mind. The statement is I am that and believe it is that word, concept. But when they keep pointing out in the scriptures that I am that is the great mantra.

If that the great mantra everything must be that Not this particular person But when we make it a personal idea I am that What have I done I seemingly separated the inseparable into a separate entity an individual And with that sense of separation comes isolation. I am no longer complete, total or whole. I am now this seeming individual entity. There can be fearful, anxious, depressed, unhappy, because it doesn't fit in with the other pattern shapes and forms which are many and varied. All sorts of pattern shapes and forms. And when they're taken to be real, separate and apart, and that isolation becomes more isolated, more separate.

And with it comes more anxiety, more stress, more guilt, more fear, more unhappiness, because the words or concepts or ideas—fear, unhappiness, depression—are labels we put on it. If it's all the one life and the one essence, which of those labels would you say would be really it? And so it's either all of them or none of them. But when there's a separation and isolation, we've set ourselves up. And the one that appears to be many. And the many appears isolated when it's taken to be something apart from what is. So there's a life here that was full of fear, stress, guilt, anxiety, depression. Didn't start off that way.

Back to a point when it didn't know anything at all the first couple of years it was around. There was an awareness of being present there, but hadn't picked up any words, concepts or labels. Couldn't say it was or wasn't or anything at all about it. Just that pure being and a knowing of that being and a loving to be. And in the learning of words, when the separation began, the isolation began, and the word was As believed in without questioning brought up more words, more concepts, more confusion, more isolation and finished up in a hell of a mess. Very unhappy, very fearful, very depressed, anxious, guilty, wasn't much fun in life.

But then it was pointed out and it had been recognised looking into things, had been seemingly pointed out for a long time and that wasn't investigated either. There was a belief in this time. Instead of recognizing there was only this presence-awareness, now there's this so-called past. And I was living from that point of view of the past. And that kept it going. But people, some people down through the ages had pointed it out, recognised it, and written about it, and pointed out that it was one essence, one life, one reality. That was all there was. And it had to be recognised and understood before it could be of any benefit whatsoever.

And in looking into that and investigation and seeing and knowing what they call the truth, that what I believed I was, was not the truth. It was a conceptual image I made about myself, made up of past events, past conditions, past experiences. And it was related constantly to other past or imagined or anticipated future events. It was never with the what is right now until in the pointing out and the questions were asked who or what am I right now The realisation came about I am this that that they were talking about That everything around me was that. That's the chair, that was the table, that was the tree, that was the flower, that was you.

Everything was that. Which we put different labels on. But that meant just as it is in itself right here and now. That is. That is the beingness. That is the knowingness. That is the loving to be. And it's not what will be or what was. It's purely and ever fresh and new in this moment. In the recognition of that, what happened to these past events and experiences? They were seen for what they were. Some could be useful as that and others could be fewer fiction, belief. And in that belief came the anxiety and the stress, the separation, the division. And looked in the word belief and they say in the beginning was the word.

What's belief? It's the word we picked up along the way. What's the word good, bad, potent, painful? All words we picked up. And what's the definition of belief in the dictionary? They put definitions into all these words, made a dictionary of them. I was told that I was Bob, this person, and I accepted it and believed it because I didn't know any other words at that time. There weren't any words I knew. And the belief made it seemingly real. And with it came along with that belief all the concepts, all the ideas, and all the mental images were brought up along with it. And those images were fear, anxiety, stress, love, hate, positivity, all the definitions with the word.

And the word was not the thing. The word was not real. Looking into the word and I could see that, take the word water. If I try and drink the word, I can't drink the word. It's only a label. The word fire, try and cook with it or burn myself or eat myself with it. Can't. So what's this word I or me? I realize there's a concept, a belief I have about myself. And that concept today might be, oh, I'm not feeling too bad, or it's terrible, or it's horrible, or I'm hated, or I'm loved. All concepts, all words, which are putting the meaning into this believed-in entity, Which pointed out again and again it is the one reality.

It is the absolute. It is the only reality. Nondual. One without a second. And it is that. And if it's the only, then everything is that. So there's no me and that that is separate and apart from that which I am. So I've never seen anything ever other than that. And recognising in that and the questioning of it and the more it's looked into and pulled I was a part of the scene, and I only be seen for what it is, the actuality. And the conceptual images lose their hold, and with it lose the fear, the sensations, the feelings and meanings that go in it.

The fear, the depression, the guilt, the anger, the unhappiness, the shame, all labels that I've taken that to be. But if it's only basically that which is, not was or not will be, but what is right now in this moment. Right in this seeming, what we call a moment, which is just a spontaneous conceptual idea anyway, I am that. Is there any other moment? Is there any other time? There has never been anything other than that. There has never been any other time or place or thing other than that. What can this apparent body-mind be but that? So what is there to search for? What is there to become?

What is there to fixate on? I am the one that can separate or divide. And I realize, the realization is that is all there is. And I am that already. So what's necessary to do? Nothing necessary to do at all. But the natural relaxation will come about. What is wrong with right now if I don't think about it? Where can any of these concepts lodge? Or who can fixate or attach to them? Has anything been, anything ever, or will anything ever be other than that? Well, I'm not going to try and find it, because I've tried for years and years, and never did. And in letting it go, I find it's much more fresh and free.

Ever fresh, still ever fresh presence, awareness. Awareness or knowing of being present, alive. That's basically what it's all about. You can all get into it now. Thank you. Welcome everyone who is with us online. We have couple of questions and greetings and good morning messages. Catherine and James are sending greetings and gratitudes from South Australia and love to all. And Anika says, so grateful for the pointings, concepts and ideas begin to break apart. The illusion crumbles in the face of reality. The truth sets you free. I can't thank you enough, Bob. Much love to all. In the one. Buenos dias, mio amigos. That was from Jay.

Okay, so anyone who would like to start the investigation, tell us what you heard, what resonated, what moved your heart, or maybe something else comes up that calls for attention. I am just sitting in the car before the meeting. I was in a very relaxing and fairly relaxed state of mind and just listening to the radio. But I wasn't really listening, I was just relaxed. And then it struck me that I didn't have to listen. It was the emptiness that was cognising. And it was nothing mystical about it, it's just obvious. When the entity or the so-called entity is not present, everything's just working naturally.

It was quite nice to see that, to see the, just the, well, cognizing emptiness at work. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. And entity is never present, even if it seems to be present, or even if it seems to exist and have real, like, yeah, takes credit, shows up. The For those who are new to me thank you for your attention Thank you Isn it relaxing You can ever get anything wrong You can ever screw up ruin your life waste your potential Nothing Because life is just flowing like a river. It does what it does. Such a freedom to just be that space in which it unfolds.

Another aspect to this was the spaciousness that's becoming obvious. And then if you just take that spaciousness as a concept, in itself it's nothing. So you can't even make it into anything. It's just, it's a spaciousness that's always there that you can just be with, to be with, enjoy that aspect of the actuality. The In the end, the conversation is about how they cut their finger and bled or how they had an argument with their partners. So it all looks perfect and my life doesn't look like it. So that is arising, the comparison is arising. In that space, it doesn't mind. It totally doesn't mind and you are that space.

But for a moment, there may be a same-ink identification with that complaining mind. And still the space doesn't mind. It's kind of almost as if life is playing itself and is playing the identity as a complaining mind for a moment and relaxes. If you leave it as it is, if you don't touch it, it's just like a cloud that will disperse. But if there is a resistance, if there is a belief, if there is any investment, then of course it will proliferate. But you can see how the mirage, how the whole illusion comes into existence from that nothing. And it is believed, it's assured, it's experienced.

And then poof, it moves away again. It still seems to be that most of the time it's like you're on the sharp edge of the razor and you're slightly off one side or the other. You're identified. And just to find that relaxed, you know, wouldn't it be wise to be the razor instead of the edge? Yeah. And then you can't get it wrong. As a razor, even like a space in which it comes into existence, you can't get it wrong. In this way, the body is not the same. fury, anger, dysregulation, irritability, no good. And they still appear. And now what you gonna do? You gonna do the therapy and fix it?

Or you gonna maybe suppress it or meditate or do something about it or not do something about it? What's right or wrong? What am I gonna do now? Well, there is no one to choose any of it. And then from life's perspective again, In one instance, life finds itself in one therapy, in another instance in another therapy, yet another one in a pub, and yet another one with a hammer, harming for life. That's all is experience and expression of that life essence. And it has to be, it has to express in the polar opposites. It has to be intense, it has to be mild, it has to be boring, it has to be dark, bright, all of it.

But again, as that space, it doesn't have preferences, it doesn't judge. The society that appears in it, it may have rules and concepts, but space doesn't judge that either. Nothing is wrong. We had a question just recently. How about, what about, you know, antidepressants? Should I take them should I not take them Again the assumption that there is an I who has a choice And again from the life perspective there will be infinite amount of options there to be taken Life will take them all. In one instance it will take them, in another instance it won't take them, In yet another instance it will mix it or go off on the drugs.

From life's perspective there is nothing right or wrong and it ultimately doesn't matter. Life will move you. Maybe your body is going to be the one that experience this option or the other. But as life you are free to let it move the body and be whatever it is to be. As I was talking back to you on emptiness, I got to this stage a few weeks ago. And I say, ask yourself, what is emptiness? And that was my next step. And I didn't know what emptiness was. And talking with Ben, emptiness is fullness. If you've got an empty glass, it's full of air. So emptiness is not the emptiness that we generally think emptiness is.

And going through that emptiness, you come into the knowing of your true self. That emptiness is your true self. Beautiful. Want to add something, Bob? That's what Nisargad had told her, my emptiness is full, my silence sings. Baba Dada couldn't hear. My silence sings, my emptiness is full. Yes. This is your next step, it's to go into your own perspective on emptiness. He might have accomplished that step. If you think that he might, you know, it's always a projection. I'm struck by the idea of one life. In that way you've got nothing to learn, nothing to do, have you? You're very, very basic, down that very basic element.

So all we're looking at is more and more exposure to that that is. It's the bizarre nature of it all isn't it? Your trips to, wherever you went, Nepal, did you find that people were less alive? We can't hear you Peter. Sorry. People are less alive in Nepal? No. There's one life isn't there? One life only. There can't be any other way. Many expressions. Many expressions, yes. Who's the one who sees those many expressions? The One Life I noticed that particularly when I was out of my habitual zone, it was much more clear to me there that people just did their thing. I did my whatever happened things, circumstances just happened.

And then I interpreted it after the event generally. So I, but you're always just that little bit behind it with the mind interpreting what's going on. So, yeah, it's just different expressions of life. I don't know how else to put it, but yeah. It's like I didn't even know whether I was going to turn up today till I was here. It's just, yeah. Absolute Can add anything to it take anything away from it Totally absolute It doesn matter what you say thank God I got nothing to say In this discussion of emptiness it occurred there that emptiness really equals the absolute doesn it Therefore everything must be full.

You're not separate from it, you are. That's right. Thank you, everyone. Anybody separate from it? Dean. Dean is? Yeah, I'm special. Deep Dean. Deep Dean is separate. Do you want to say it? No. I was saying, the life just wakes up and then all of a sudden wants to say something, There's no real directing of it. I'll be just sitting there and there's nothing to say and then all of a sudden there's something to say. There's no one that's doing that. It's just the life that is happening, flowing from seemingly one person to the next. But without any concepts, you can't... Can you divide this room, the space in the room?

You can't, you know, without the concept of Mardin and Dean and Bob and Melbourne and this room, and without any of those concepts, can you divide this? I Am. So last week I had an experience where holding what we discussed on last Sunday, Deb who was here was talking about the the trickiness of the mind and how it can, yeah, trick you. And so I had a moment where I was relaxing into it and I could feel what can be described as your inner body and just seemingly resonating in a way that I haven't felt before. And then while watching the intellect, I can see that the concepts have come up with like the idea that the more you know about something, the less you truly do know.

So it does seem in the conversation of inquiry or in of enlightenment that we have a relationship with the mystery right there's always like a deeper so the inevitable at least statement that I told myself or possibly that this is not it. So the question is what would be something like is there any way to Describe what that transition feels like, you know, if it's possible, just to verify. The description is not the described. What's that? I say the description can never be the described. Yeah, yeah. Well, we're using words to... But you will hear the description and it will have different meaning for you than it has for the one who describes.

Yeah. You can completely miss it. But if you actually describe it in your own words and say it out loud, then if it carries the right energy, it will be easy to verify it. Try it. Okay. Try it now. How about now? Well, I see everyone looking at me right now, so I don't think I'll be able to do it. You may feel a little bit self-conscious when you get too much attention. It's kind of uncomfortable or on the spot. But all those feelings are appearing in that field of knowing. You are aware of all those feelings appearing. And that awareness doesn't have any flavor or any feeling or any taste.

But it can't be denied. You know it is there. And I know, you know about being self-conscious, even though you can't say how it feels or how big or how small or how warm or how cold or what color or shape or form, nothing. But it can't be denied. It's so beyond any possibility of grasping or describing. Any attempt is, as you say, is just to say, aha, not this. Anything that can be perceived or objectified is just an appearance, not this. This is that traditional neti-neti investigation. When you see everything perceivable and conceivable, neti-neti-neti-neti, until you let

But not the nothing, you know like Helen was saying, emptiness that is full, it's not the nothing, it's the no-thing.

It isn't a thing and yet it's vibrant, it's alive, it's conscious, it's present and that presence cannot be denied. I Am, I Am. Never not here. And that you are. That you are. That which comes and goes is just passing phenomena. But that constant awareness of presence, that constant existence, consciousness, the joy of being or preference for being or love for being, that is always here. What comes and goes is not. It does seem that while we are in the world and we are participating in the world, we are still going to get hooked. There is no consistency of... or maybe... Well, that which does get hooked is not your original self.

It is just an attention that is... Where you are placing your attention. Well, you're not even placing it, it's automatically going where it's required. Just like the animal, when it's chased by the predator, the attention will go to, you know, the blood flow will go to legs and it will run. And there's no one there doing it, it's just life-sorting itself. Are you hooked right now? No. There is only right now. There is never any other time. If you only remember to check, Oh, how about right now? Am I hooked now? Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, when the mind starts cottoning on, it's not the mind, if you could say it that way.

It's actually a really simple process because you investigate and you see that these thoughts are coming and going. And so you know that by default that you can't be those thoughts. And so something's left which is who you are and it's not something that has to be found because even the thought you have to find what you are is kind of ridiculous if you think about it because what you are is really what you are. You're really that. So you don't have to find that, right? You just have to investigate and see all these things that are coming up that you're not, that you believe you are.

And once you notice that those things aren't you, you allow them to come and go and who you are is just free and fresh and it's always been who you are. Yeah, the peace that surpasses all understanding. Thanks, Mada. Thank you. I just want to say one thing. Why don't we just celebrate the fact that we're really great at imagining things. Good point. Celebrate the fact how great we are at imagining things. That's a universal thing. It's kind of like life is universal to everybody, as well as the capacity to imagine all kinds of different scenarios. All of which disappear on real concentrated effort. You don't even need that there.

You just see really easily that every imagining is really inherently empty. Like all your getting trapped stuff is full of the emotion of everything. That's great. That's God, isn't it? That's you as that exercising this process of imagining. Imaging everything. So what? It doesn't mean anything to, as Bob points out, if we just look back to this instant, where is all our imagining? It's gone, gone, gone, gone, everything goes. That's the nature of everything here, it just goes. So, vive la imagination. Go for it, see where it can really lead you. Open up incredibly to it and see what happens. That would be an amazing thing, wouldn't it?

Just let it blast. Go for it. And then we turn and we see that you know no matter how relaxed I am everything just going to run the way it going to run anyway I was just going to add a word there I would put it... It wasn't until you came out of your head and started to speak from your heart The change happens. As you were talking, it's just what came to me is, you know, life is but a dream. I'm a bit of a In the moment, like this moment, it's wonderful, it's amazing, but then again, where is it in a microsecond? And I guess enjoy the dream, but realise that that's all it is.

Like I look, I can look back and I've got an apparent age or I've got an apparent story, whatever that happens to be. I am a person who is not aware of the reality, but where is it? What is it? And it's just vapour. I can maybe look back at some photos and have a connection there, but if I don't have the photos and I'm not thinking about it again, where is it? It's no different to going to a parent's sleep at night and having a dream. It's just so clear that it's just imagination. Pick some way of describing it to somebody else, but ultimately it's just completely gone.

Could you take that another step and ask, well where is it when I'm looking at the photo? Yeah, it's again, I'm somehow reconstituting that as a memory, but it's still happening now. I'm not sure if I have a look at, you know, apparently there's something on that phone that took an image, but it's not there unless I open this up or look at a photo album. Where is it? Or if you don't label any of it. Or I don't label any of it. What is it? It's just there? It's not even there unless I put my attention on it or that awareness on it. I don't see anything behind me right now.

Is there anything behind me? I don't know. Well, I can pretend I think I know, but is there anything? You just look at it and it just disappears. Everything just disappears. When you sleep at night you look at things and those things are appearing as real as this moment. It is a manifestation. I have a couple of people to include here. I saw a meme the other day that crows hold grudges, yet there is no entity holding on. Yeah, habitual behavior which people anthropomorphize as holding grudges. And now we have, Katherine says, problem stems from people claiming to be individuals When the etymology of the word individual is indivisible from the whole, nondual.

Beautiful. And Gilbert says, Where are you seeing from? Investigate. There are no reference points in the seeing. All mind content is an appearance. Where are you seeing from? Beautiful. Yeah, that's a good point. Whether it's a dream or whether it's this moment or whether it's a constructed memory or imagination, where is the seeing happening from? What's the source of it? Is there a source of it? Is it a point where it starts or is it a field or what is it? And you see how the mind has to shut down because there is no simple answer. You can't objectify it. I just want to expand a bit on Martin's pointer because I thought that was really helpful.

Like if we think about the room and what we differentiate between an object or how far it is, it's always like a word or a concept. I think it was really good what you were saying because it made me really realize that nothing that you can actually see without a concept is I don know something hit me about that point Nothing's divided. And I think it was something in the Course in Miracles as well that said like, we give everything meaning, like every single thing we see, we program ourselves into that. So I think without concepts, it's just, just this. Thank you. I was going to say, without any labels or concepts, like the closest you could genuinely get to describing that experience is it's all one.

Like that without any labels right now without nothing the closest you get it's one or it's nothing or yeah but but yet it's not it's not the the word that we're using to describe it either it's beyond beyond that word beyond our understanding. There is Gilbert here says, oh no that's Catherine and James, you can show a thousand films but you need a screen to show the films and the screen is never affected. Just want to make a point that every conflict we have is past anyway. Everything we're looking at The whole of our illusory capability, the ability to imagine things, is gone. It's about looking at past events, never about the aura of future imaginings.

It's never about now, is it? The looking is always now, isn't it? Well, that's true, yes, that's very true. The imaginings themselves, they are always in the past. We can only wreak havoc, we're trying to wreak havoc on the past the whole time. It's crazy isn't it? Nuts. So when we look, there's no boundary to this view. We have two eyes but only one view. The edge of that view goes into nothingness, just fades into nothingness. There's no edges. So it's infinite. And it's here now. No boundaries. So the looking is another aspect of the one. The I am a person who is not a creator, I am a creator of things.

It's completely boundless, it's completely non-contained. It might fade off to the awareness, but it never, it's like space. And what you were saying too, I can look at an object, am I looking at the object or the space? But in reality it's both. It's the object and it's the space, so it's the form and the formless. And whether you want to call it one or infinite, whatever, that's just another concept, but it just is. That's it. And that especially, you know, having a photographer speak, who actually frames the beautiful... Yeah, that's your viewpoint, that's your perspective, but it's individual. And that's what life actually exercises through this human capacity to appreciate beauty.

You know, the animal cannot take a beautiful artistic photograph or do the painting. So the human capacity to appreciate, see how life can actually appreciate a reflection, that it has so many reflections, so many ways. And every pattern will have different sort of a setting for appreciation. Some may collectively agree on some things, but there will always be exceptions. And also I love to highlight what Ros was saying, you know, that even though The whole imagination, the whole mind stuff, the mind is past, so the whole stuff is the content, maybe past-related, future-related, or whatever, mind-related. The seeing itself is always present, happening. The imagining itself is present, happening.

The thinking itself is present, happening. Even the interpreting the investigating everything with the ink is a singular present capacity that is undivided The content that appears in it is not even appearing in it because without a content we can't even say, you know, like without the content of seeing we can't say there is a seeing. So they actually undivided, indivisible. But it is a nice thing to actually see how you can relax from that dualistic relationship I see this, I like this, I appreciate this into that appreciating, relaxed being, relaxed seeing and within that whatever comes and goes is secondary because the primary is that present happening.

And I think we have a comment here. Oh no, we actually added that one. Anyone? Dean, did you want to say something? No. Why not? Why not? I think Bob, some, like, I think today's spiel is very good. Good work, Bob. Today's spiel. But he emphasized, like, what are you without a thought? And then you went on and described that in many different ways, like, what are we without a thought? And at the moment we're talking about the seeing, and it's like, you know, line page two of your book, Bob, www.nishargad.com.au www.nisargad.com The fact that there is an aliveness, and it just goes back to the very simplicity of what you are saying Bob, the aliveness, you can't negate your own being, the beingness, the aliveness, the seeingness, it's all the same thing, it's just this sense of presence and everything appearing in it, which is governing the rubbish that is coming out of this mouth at the moment.

Speak Inc. The primordial illusion is I Am. I Am primordial illusion. And before the meeting started I kind of got an email with a question and I actually posed that question to the group. It was about the nature of identification. You know, what is it? Why is that identification? Is it the space that is identifying as an object? Or is it, and if it is, you know, how would that be still empty space? So what the heck? And Dean just reminded me about that because, you know, asking about identification almost kind of feels personal, you know, this is the source of all the problem. But if you see the capacity for identifying just the same way as you see the capacity for seeing, then you see that this is a spontaneous activity.

Spontaneous activity of that energy, of that intelligence that is static as a screen and in motion appearing as the ten thousand things, including the capacity, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, identifying, role-playing, imagining, thinking. It makes it really simple whenever you open up and see everything just being a field, field identifying. Now it isn't personal, it isn't poor miserable little me and what is it now? The space identifying as me and suffering, why would it do it? Is it stupid or what? Nobody does that. Just as the seeing is happening, identifying may be happening. And who cares? Space doesn't. And who wants to question it? Who's got a problem with that?

See what is it or who is it, if there is anyone there, or is just the questioning happening perhaps in that relaxed space that is never not here. And we have a comment from Julia. In order for thinking to occur, including the thought I think, synapses in the brain need to be fired. The body can't do a thing without animating intelligence energy. Mind is just an appearing movement of that energy. Yeah, and so is everything. I'm just thinking about history. That it's understandable that we have an experience of seeing or hearing or that happens and then we evaluate, judge, give it a positive or negative spin or place it within the context of our so-called personal history.

And the same applies to planetary history or collective history that we imagine that we've had a progression of humanity from this to this to this to this. And that's just as imaginative as our personal history really. And the way I think about history and the way you think about history are themselves imaginative. It's not just a personal take, it's a collective take as well. We live in an imagination of humanity's progress, for example, or the current situation. It's a very large parlor game, isn't it? Not just individual but also collective. And it is really easy to see if you kind of, because now so it seems that you know if you have any idea or any concept or any belief system, you start googling it and you get the feeling that everybody has the same idea because the search is kind of addressed to match your previous searches.

So you don't really even fully understand that there are people having absolute conviction in complete opposite. You may see the progress and the sign of progress everywhere, less wars, people are more happy. And then someone next to you, the neighbor you may not even know sees that, oh shit, antidepressants, skyrocket, suicide rate, skyrocket, humanity is going bananas. And yet another one can have completely different worldview, conspiracies, climate change. No, the solution of the problems, they are all the same, they are all just the content, however collective. You may even go in the numbers game, you know, like eight billions believe in science and only half a billion in flat earth.

It doesn't really matter. It's just they are all the same content, the same incredibly beautiful juicy stories in which that one life expresses itself. It is an expression. It's just like, and I love your metaphor to the human, to the collective versus individual, the same holographic pattern, the capacity for expression. And you can have the whole humanity singing, or you can have one musician singing. You can have the whole humanity subscribing to one story of the origin, whatever, from the Bible, or Koran, or science, doesn't matter where. Or you can have one person having a story and go to the therapy and rewrite the story and ask the parent and rewrite the story again.

It's all the same, it's all equal, space does it differentiate. For the individual perspective this is more pleasant or this is more pretty or this is more ethical or this is more compassionate. Well, but this is also that judgment is also part of the whole landscape of a storytelling capacity and it's beautiful. Yes. Um, what I've really been noticing is, um, what a fort is. How it's just made up of images, sensations and words. And it's never in the now. So it's just always in the past or future. No, actually it's all made up of the past. The content of it. Because the thought itself is present.

The thinking is present. But the content is always relating to something that's not now. So if we see something on TV that might come into our mind and the image is there and give us a sensation or yeah I've just been really noticing being more aware and then if a thought comes up seeing what it is disengaging with it and even putting it on the wall or like yeah just really going into what it is. Isn't it amazing? It's pretty mind-blowing. Like Dean was saying, the capacity for seeing, what a miracle. And the capacity for thinking what an incredible incredible entertainment Bob says sometimes like has anyone ever found a thought Yeah.

Sorry, you want to say something? I haven't, no. I was just going to say, like, no thought sticks. There's no thought that can stick. Like, you can repeat a thought, and I don't know for how long you can try to do that for, I Am the state of the mind... But they just, they still don't stick to you, so you don't have that same energy that goes into it. And they just sort of pass like a cloud in the sky, I guess. Beautiful. That's actually how Bob says it. He always asks people, are the thoughts stitched in your head anywhere in your skull? They are not, just like the clouds are not stitched to the sky.

They move on, so do thoughts. Beautiful. Yeah, absolutely. Why not? Yeah, yeah, wonderful. Yeah, they never stop. Unless you get the brain damage, as Bob says, or Alzheimer's disease, then maybe, yeah. But if you don't, if you're healthy, yes, they will be coming and moving on. Exactly, yeah. Yeah. In our imagining, we're trying to stop the universe in its tracks, and hold the universe There is still for a minute, or a second or whatever, or a millennia, so we can understand what it is, somehow. What is this process of trying to understand? It's very difficult to understand what understanding is. It's trying to hold something which cannot ever be held.

Still, enough. What a strange thing that is. Just the word when you say understand, it seems fixed, like stand, understand. I do not know what that is but it is what I am. So it is like a fixed position because what was understood once as X given another set of circumstances like scientific theory or whatever or scientific so-called fact. That is fine but it is only ever for a moment. You can only understand anything now. We are in the process of understanding. That sweet longing for the truth and liberation. Oh God, I just so, so want to be free from that angst because it's not really a desire for truth.

It's really a desire for freedom from the angst, from the not knowing, from confusion, from the uneasiness. That is imagined, it's based in the idea that I'm separate. I'm just going to say that understanding means something quite different to standing under. Good point. Same word, but just to invert the word, completely different meaning. And when you say those two ways, we form a perception from whichever way we're looking at it. And this is to get to the truth, you form a perception of something and it's then to see the other perception of it from the other side. But one is fixed and one is not fixed.

Yes, yes. To stand under something is not personal. To take a personal view is to put the personal view aside. Put the personal view aside. Understanding feels like whatever that understanding, that process is. I can only speak on what happened here for this, but you're stuck in a state of continuously trying to understand. And trying to understand all the time is actually a pain in the ass And it takes up a lot of energy and it actually not that fun And you trying to understand trying to understand and then people around you are saying there's nothing to understand. That makes the understanding want to understand more.

And it just ends up becoming a very tiring process to the point that you end up listening And you give up understanding and then you're free of understanding, which is always what you wanted. Beautiful. Beautiful. Here Gilbert says, understanding is wordless and silent. Yeah, but I love the way you describe how, you know, the trying is hell. Trying is absolutely leaving hell because trying, and it implies that, you know, implies the failure. Trying, trying, trying. And the truth is, well, it has to imply the failure because there's nothing that could be grasped. Understanding is the capacity. It's not an object to be had by someone who isn't even there.

It's just giving up trying and, oh, shit, you know. I'm sorry. Because you're too busy just falling, too busy being and it's like a endless unfolding, so there's no ground. But yeah, it's a paradox, you can understand that there's no ground to stand on. Beautiful. Too busy being, I love that. Just completely being, being, falling. Nisargadatta actually says, Bob sometimes quotes him, that he says, the understanding is all, but not the intellectual grasping, but the right understanding. The right understanding is that you are already that, or is the knowing that you are, that you already are, knowing that you exist. So it is that deliciousness of being that is already fully known and understood 100%.

It doesn't have to be grasped in any way because it can't be denied. And as you say, when you're too busy being, what does it really matter? Trying to just grasp, falling into that being. Lovely. There is just an endless flux, so there is nowhere to stand. But the mind can't perceive nonduality. It's always dual, always in conflict. So whatever you hear, for example if you hear a guru say, The way is to be in a state of surrender. The mind will hear that and immediately make a whole philosophy out of it. Yes. Because I think the mind does this because it's afraid of the infinite nature of your being.

It has to make a structure every time it hears something. It always goes to the extreme. That's why I think Buddha talks about the middle way, which is like a transcendence of all polarities, discipline, effort, yin-yang. It's like a transcendence. That transcendence is what's always the same. But he also says the only permanent thing is impermanence. Yes. So it's like, yeah, it's just always a paradox. Thank you for watching. So he just did what the fuck he liked then. Julia says, why bother understanding? I know that I am. No understanding needed. The knowing, knowing that I am. Yes? Do you want to say something there?

Yes, you do. I don't understand. That's the question. Excellent. We will surrender. They were true. That capacity for the mind you know I like what you were saying that you know the Guru says it is the way of surrender I am a person who is ready to surrender and suddenly you have the whole philosophy coming up What do you have to do to surrender How to do How to pray How to And the beautiful creation comes right out of that idea. And this is just that, you know, they call the absolutes. They call it a creator or God because it's infinitely creative. One opening for creation and then that creation is pouring out into existence.

The whole philosophy, religion, cult, whatever it is, is beautiful. If you see it from that field which is unaffected, because of course if you fall victim to that and you believe that there is a you who wasted 40 years of your life into something like that, well that's hell. But that hell is included in that creativity. From duality you create the life that you live and everything that happens. Yes, the life creates itself. The life using the whatever, the lenses it gave itself through the conditioning of that body-mind machine. Through those lenses the projected world is experienced and expressed. I am impressed. But it's still only one life.

There is no one else in between who does any of the creation. It's life through the same characters, same personalities, same roles, but it's still the same life. It's just like the same electricity is expressing as light through the globe and as heat through the toaster. And the energy is in the words, what you are saying. Everywhere, all is that, all is energy. In the words, in the music, in the light, in the seeing, in the sensing, all of it. Yes, and that's the magic and the beauty. Yeah. Brendan? Oh, not really. Nothing's coming up. I'm not sure, but it'd be very profound. Okay. No, I'll stop there.

So, the non-conceptual awareness, not identifying with that awareness. I think I fell into that trap where I was trying to conceptualize being aware. And now I just am aware. I know I'm aware. But then I wanted to ask, I guess, it's more of a question about whether awareness comes from the heart too? No. See, before the heart was even formed in the womb, before, you know, when those two cells came together and started growing, that intelligence, that energy or awareness as a potential for the consciousness was already there doing all the job. And it formed the heart and the brain and the legs and eyes and everything.

Now, if I go back to birth, it's not coming from that place. No, it's not coming from anywhere. There is no origin. So really we're just connecting with our heart rather than... Really, this is just a practical sort of a way of shifting attention out of conceptual thinking. You know, like in some cultures you will say, go to your heart, this is the center of the feeling. I think that's where I was getting a bit confused. Yeah, you could also say go to the lower Dan Tien, or still your motion center, like in meditation you are moving. Just go to your gut, maybe go to your toe, or go to anywhere.

I mean, whatever you consider the... even the instruction to go within is ultimately for it, because there is no within or without unless you conceptualize and imagine any boundaries in which there is within or without. But if you don't get any boundaries whatsoever, whether you call it heart or gut or whatever, you can just call it here. Close your eyes, the body disappears, the boundaries disappear, it's just here. But is that here, here? From where are you measuring it? You can't even measure where is the heart or the head if you lose the concept. There's no center. Makes sense. Yeah. Do you understand? No. We have a question or comment from Shinda.

I surrendered my thoughts to Bob. They are not my problem anymore. I love you guys. You and Bob are always in my heart. Thank you, Shinda. That's beautiful. You're not mine either. No, no, that's fantastic. Thank you.