Same thing, different words. Sailor Bob and the nonduality group 28 Jan 2024

There is Joel here. Hi, I'm Joel. Teeble. Anita. Ros. Arthur. Jürgen. Jane. Mishra. Liz. Chris. Neela. Michael. Julia. Trista. Tony. Vee. Cam. And stop. So I'll have to do it before the pool is out. And I'll pull my ears off with it. Oh, you remembered. Been trained by a woman and trained well. For the good of everyone. So there you go. There you go. And I can't tell you anything. Can't teach you anything. All we do here is point toward it and ask you to look to where we're pointing to to see for yourself. Because what we point out, non-duality, there is nobody that can teach you or tell you anything.

Because we're talking about the one essence that's pattern, shapes and forms, experiences and expresses as everything. And you're already that. Another way I put it is I'm not speaking to anybody. I'm not speaking to any mind. I'm not speaking to that body-mind identity. I'm speaking to that I am that I am. And each one of you knows I am. And that presence awareness that expresses through the mind is that thought I am. And that's how it's expressed here, non-duality, one without a second, only that. Everything is that. And you are already that. And if you grasp that, that it's absolute, it's the great perfection, which are two other ways they express it in the scripture.

There's nothing to seek. No one to seek it. Nothing to find. And no one will find it. But it is. It's only this is-ness. And is-ness is not what was, not will be, or what might have been, or what will be. It is this presence awareness. Anyone who is not present right now, or anyone who is unaware, no, you realise I'm present and aware. So you must already be that. Recognising that, the search becomes the problem. Because you take up the search, you believe there's something I haven't got, and I will get in some future time. Now you hear that word time, so that's another thing that you need to look at.

Is there such a thing as time? Investigate. Is there a past if I don't think about it? Is there a future if I don't think about it? And whenever the thinking is going on, is it thinking in the past, or is it thinking in the future? It might be about the past, about the future, but it won't be in the past, or the future. So it can only happen right in this present moment. So that's what they say, they tell you that, Mr. Gorgeous. Start from the fact that you already are that, the fact of being. Another way how it's expressed, being, knowing, and loving to be.

Anyone who's not being? I don't hear anybody jumping up and say I'm not being. Anyone who's not knowing that? Or anyone who's not loving to be? That word being. Call ourselves human beings. Believe in God, you call God the supreme being. What happens if you take that label supreme off? Take the label human off, and try and accept the being. Accept. Try and separate. You can't get up and say I'm not being. And the very saying of it, you know, I'm not loving to be. I'm not loving to be. I'm not loving to be. That word being. Call ourselves human beings. Believe in God, you call God the supreme being.

What happens if you take that label supreme off? Take the label human off, and try and accept the being. Try and separate the beingness from what you are right now. You can't get up and say I'm not being. And the very saying of it, you must realise that it is so. We're taking the belief we are this person. This body-mind entity. This separate entity, this individual. Well, how did that come about? Well, we'll go back and have a look, investigate. Because that's what they tell us also. That the false cannot stand up to investigation. And they say know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

That's where the truth, the freedom is in the truth. The freedom, peace and joy is knowing the truth. So we investigate it, this truth. Am I this person? Well, where does the word person come from? It came from the ancient Latin. Meaning persona, the mask. The mask. So if you believe you're a person, you're relating it to this mask. And the mask is the conceptual image, or the concept, or idea, you have about yourself. I am Bill, or Jane, or whatever your name might be. I'm this, that, or the other. When we're relating to that, believed in entity, it's not the truth. Because the person is not the reality.

Being persona, the mask. How did you come about? Well, you say, I was born. Can anyone remember their birth? And you look and say, no, I can't remember my birth. How could you? People might say, oh yes, I remember birth. People will say that, that couldn't possibly be so. Because you didn't have any words at birth. So how could you say, or even think, I was born? Wouldn't be possible. And you didn't pick up words until you were a couple of years old. When the little baby grew, and the capacity of reasoning developed, at about two, two and a half. And your parents fussing around you, started speaking words.

And you were hearing, and reasoning, and taking the words on board. But where did you begin? Well, go back as far as your father and your mother. That animating life essence, that intelligence energy, that pattern in shape and form that you called your father. A navel in that little, navel in that pattern, a little micro-swap of particle called a sperm to form. You can't see it with your naked eye. And that sperm was suffused with intelligence. It knew what to do. And in the mother, the same life essence in your mother, a navel in that pattern, a little egg, or an ovum to form. That ovum suffused with intelligence, it attached itself to the wall of the uterus.

It knew what to do. And the sperm swam to the ovum. Again, pointing out it, knowing what to do. And it penetrated the ovum. When those two merged together, those two cells going together, mingling, and the intelligence energy in those cells, doubled that cell and doubled it again, grew to it, added to it, formed the little embryo, the little fetus as rich as what you are today. What were you doing about it then? You realised you didn't know anything about it, and you weren't doing anything about it at all. Just the same for the first couple of years of your life. You had no words.

You had no words then, saying, I am this or I am that. But when you started to learn words, that's when our problems started. And from then on, we've taken on these words and beliefs, and the words separate. As Shakespeare told you a couple hundred years ago, he says, oh my, about three or four hundred, I don't know. He says, nothing... No, he said... Is there either good or bad? Because the thinking... What? Nothing is either good or bad. There's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. And when you look at that, and see the way you think, you're thinking good, bad, pleasant, faithful, happy, sad, loving, hating, positive, and everything, always in the pairs of opposites.

And we take the words good, bad, to be real. Not really. When you look at the word, what is word? Word's nothing but sound, or noise, or a movement, a vibration. The vibration's a movement of energy. What about this body? You'll say, my body. You see, they're calling the word, my mind. They say, my body. Well, are you the body? You say, my house, my car, my coat. You know you're not the house, the car, or the coat. Maybe you're not the body either, if you say, my body. Whose body is it? Well, investigate and see what's the body made up of. It's made up of elements.

Air, earth, fire, water, space. Just like the elements around you. Separate yourself from those elements. Separate yourself from the air. You're not going to last too long. Take the water out of your body. You won't last too long. Take the fire, the body temperature. Or get out of the space. So when you investigate, you see you're not separate and apart from those elements. And all those elements can be broken down to subatomic particles into pure energy. So it's all, as Einstein told you, energy. And he says, and that energy is doing all the work itself. It's an intelligence energy. The activity of knowing. Everyone is knowing right now.

And that knowing, the I-NG on it, the knowing, is a movement. An activity. Any activity is a movement of energy. So it's vibrating into words, thoughts, feelings, emotions, and all the different actions. All activities. They're all vibrations. All energy. And they call it in the scriptures, the basic space of phenomena. They say, it all takes place in space. And space is all there is. What's the very first thing you say? See. You'll say, I see this. I see the chair. I see the very first thing. The closest thing to your eyes is space. Emptiness. No thing. This room is space. Space is in the outside there.

Wherever you look, there's always this space. Is that the problem? It's there. It's obvious. It's evident. We don't notice it. And they call it space-like awareness. The basic space of phenomena. Space is no thing. Try and find a boundary to it. Try and find a beginning to it. You can't pinpoint or postulate a place where space begins. Try and find an end to it. Or a circumference to it. Or a place anywhere at all you can say it begins or starts. Or is separate from it. Has it got any shape, any form? If it's got no boundaries, no beginning and ending, it's shapeless form. Yet everything, you and I, are the content.

The house, the trees, the flowers, the planets, the stars, the earth, all the other elements are the content of space. You can't think of anything outside of space. Even when they talk about the beginning of the world. Say, well, it began billions of years ago. And with a big bang. What would the big bang be in? It would have to be in space. Could you think of what it would be outside of space? Is there anything outside to it? It is not. So space is the absolute. It is no thing. Having no beginning, no shape, no form. We are shapes, forms, patterns. And every other thing, so-called thing in space, has patterns, shapes and forms.

But it's all the content of space. Space being no thing and everything in the content. Nothing at all outside of it. Nothing separate from it. Can something come from no thing? It can't. So in reality we all are no thing that vibrates into different patterns, shapes and forms and experiences and expresses as everything. And that goes for every so-called thing in this manifestation. And they call it all the adornment of space. It's all appearing on or in space. All adorning space. But it's not separate or apart from space. So that's what it is. Space-like awareness. It's called a sat, shit, and hand, and arm and room.

Existence, consciousness, bliss, name and form. Existence, there's nobody in this room who's not existing right now. Nobody who is not conscious or unaware. You're all aware and you're all conscious. No one who is not happy to be. You don't want to be dead right now. You want to be. So there's a happiness to be. So you already are that. But we don't see it. It's that close and so familiar and so common that it's ignored. And they tell you that in the scriptures that it's ignorance. And we think with that word ignorance that I'm dull, stupid. I don't know. But it's not even that. It just means simply that we are ignoring our space.

We think we are this body-mind because we've taken on the belief. And we go from there. We've got to make this body realize or recognize the beginning to it or the reality of it. God. Not saying there's no beginning or no ending because there is no time. A beginning implies time. It tells you in the Bible, in the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God. The Word was God. That's all that God is. It's a word. A label. Content we put on. All things were made by Him by the Word. And that is true. And there was nothing made that was made without the Word.

So we've got all these words and that is the godliness of your life. Or the pure, intelligent energy. Or the realization. That we've taken on this belief that we are the person. That we are the individual. The separate entity. Now have a look at that term belief. Look up your dictionary. Look up belief. The definition of belief is an unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason. Acceptance of an alleged fact. An elite fact mind you. Without positive knowledge or proof. So when you put your beliefs to this test they'll fall apart. And you've done that already. You see so many things that we believed in.

That they know are not true. If you go down to the ocean I said to you go get me a bucket of blue orange on the sea. You say don't be stupid. You know that the sea is not blue. But it appears to be blue. Look up in the sky on a misty day. You'll see a rainbow in the sky. Go up and try and grab the colors in the sky. You'll find they don't exist. It's just the sun shining through the mist formed colors in the sky. I've got a crystal in the window here. Or the paper on the wall that cats put on the glass.

The sun shines through and a beautiful pattern of color comes on the floor there. Another one on the stairs. They're not real. They appear to be there. But they're not real. And all the other sort of things that might have metaphors they put on. Like the snake and the rope. That's another one. A person steps out of his cabin on a dark rainy and wet night. And in the darkness he stands on a piece of wet rope. He thinks he's trot on a serpent. The hair stands on end. The goose bumps arise. And an image runs through his body that he's been bitten. That image stirs up the blood pressure and everything else.

And the great fear and trembling starts. Somebody comes out with a torch and shines the torch on it. And says look it's only a piece of wet rope. And immediately there is a sense of relief. But the fear and the trembling that don't die down straight away. Because it's been a physical sensation now. It's been caused physically. So it takes a little bit longer. And see how we get caught up in all these concepts. And the physical way it gets into trouble with us. The thoughts, feelings and emotions. So that's the two aspects of the thinking. First there will be a thought. But it's there for a little while.

Then the sensation will come up. That sensation will be a feeling. And it will feel like, as it's stirred up the body, anger, fear, depression, guilt, shame, jealousy, envy. All our psychological problems come up with that belief and the sensation. and they are the effects of the cause the fear, the anger, the depression see how that works in your body something comes up and you like it not realising that this manifestation is transient that it's constantly changing that body of yours is changing right now there are thousands of cells dying in it right at this moment and being replaced and each cell suffuses it mate intelligence and he knows what to do because a heart cell won't replace a liver cell skin cell won't replace a whatever any other a heart cell or a body cell whatever other names you like I can't think of it at the moment I couldn't care less either each cell knows what to do it's a fusion of that intelligence they see this body nothing but a vibration of that intelligence energy also and when this body came about as I say through the father and the mother those two souls coming together forming the little embryo, the little fetus what were you doing about it then?

you had didn't have any words so you couldn't do anything about it realize that you didn't learn words until you were a couple of years old earlier so you were prior to the mind that's all the mind is, is thought but you had no words until you were that age so you were before the mind we take belief that this mind is such a wonderful thing and all of us there is no such thing as mind apart from thought and if mind is thought which particular thought are you? when we take that sense of presence that thought I am to be what you are but it's not what you are it's just a description you are the life itself as Christ told you I am the way I am the truth I am the life people are talking about think he's talking about himself but he wasn't he's talking about that sense of presence that translates through the mind as the thought I am and everybody here knows I am and relate to it quite willingly but then you say I am Johnny or little Gilly or Joe or whatever and you lose sight of the sense of presence it is obscured covered over by concepts it's the same as go outside in a cloudy day you do not see the sun do you think the sun has left the sky?

it hasn't it's still radiated shining in its fullness but in that radiation what does it do? it evaporates water the water evaporates and rises as a cloud which obscures the sun and blots the sun out and what happens? the sun will keep radiating and shining and it will cool down and that cloud will condense come down as rain and that rain turn into water and go back into the ocean and then it will be evaporated again but it won't be the same bit of water that's evaporated so then don't get the idea you're going to re-cate reincarnate as a person it'll reform in different patterns you can never get the same little piece out again so it's the same as body-mind they call it a material spiritual body but realise that spirit and matter are two ends of the one stick also spirit is like essence like a perfume you get the essence of the perfume it's not the perfume it's the essence that's the spirit the can't it's got no shape or form it's a beautiful sense of press smell and matter is when it becomes solid like water becomes ice solidifies and this is what's happening when now thought the natural spiritual functioning of that intelligence energy in the body that heartfelt essence which we try and grasp onto with thoughts and enable the thought which is not it Liam and Sidalevian it is when it's left as spirit it's an inner intelligence that inner knowing and that'll come up spontaneously but when we create it fixate on it and make it matter matter solidifies it like water becomes steam and then condenses into ice solid and you know that in your language too what happens when you say and know it doesn't matter you couldn't care less about it could you you haven't allowed it to concretise or solidify and you're not taken aboard it's not going to affect you and the other one is I don't mind people say can I do this I do that you feel the effect oh I don't mind if you don't mind well again good luck to them but if it does mind you're up in arms so see ourselves we beat ourselves up with this mind making it matter and sensations and all of it the thought comes up the feeling what's your next thought going to be and you'll tell me I don't know and you don't know what your next thought is but a thought will come up and you'll say I think I'm thinking this thought as soon as you say I think what have you done you formed a thinker a subject now I have become the subject and the thought that I'm thinking has become the object subject object duality we're in the pattern again but can there be a thinker without thinking look at it you see there can't be a thinker without thinking can there be the thought without thinking there can't be the thought without thinking same applies to all feelings and concepts are going on the feeling the thought I see the seeing the thought I see the seeing is happening and the thought I see comes up but can the thought I see see you know damn well the thought I can't see the thought I hear the thought can't hear the thought I am aware the thought I am aware is not your awareness the thought I choose is not the choice maker these thoughts can't do anything at all the energy belief goes into it that they can so they were seeing hearing tasting touching smelling feeling all these sensations are going on in this pattern all functioning naturally and efficiently we're not relating to an I or a me and dividing them and conceptualizing it and doing that everything is left as it is and in that isness it changes by itself and you don't know what your next thought is going to be if you're not got it obscured by the concepts and the thoughts because as soon as those thoughts go in they cause other thoughts to come about and other thoughts and other thoughts and that becomes a story and the story never ends goes on and on what happens if you pause the thought and ask yourself what's wrong with right now if I don't think about it what can you say with that thought it's a pause thought you can't say it's good you can't say it's bad pleasant playful happy or sad but you can't say anything at all about it but you haven't stopped breathing your heart hasn't stopped beating your hair and fingernails haven't stopped growing food hasn't been stopped the functioning the living that's going on naturally effortlessly and spontaneously what does that point to you it points that you're not the body you're not the mind but you are that animating life essence you are the life itself and that's what Christ tells you I am the way I am the truth I am the life this is I've got to tell you there's only life there is no body who lives a life no body no mind that lives a life but there is life that's suffusing the body and forming the mind it's the life that's causing the sap to run through the tea the earth to roll the sun round the sun the tides to come in and out the seasons to come and go it's breathing you're beating your heart there is only the life and life is no thing hasn't got any pattern shape or form no beginning no end and try and negate it try and negate your own being you can't say I am not because of every idea if you could say it you would realise if that beingness or knowing wasn't there you wouldn't be able to say anything at all or the breathing would happen the sun it tells you again it says there is only life there is nobody who lives on life lives on that life and out of life more life comes and that's what we just pointed out here that more life comes out of body each pattern shape and form can be form another pattern shape and form in the life so it's that pure intelligence anything what happens when the life goes out of the body what happens it starts to break down immediately bacteria and germs and little animals will form maggots or worms will start to develop or it might get burned or buried go down into ashes but eventually it forms back into dust and that dust forms back into space so it came from space it goes back into space what was lost what do you have to fear about death when you know it's always been so and always will be so but the fear comes about when we take on the belief we are this entity for it's only me that can be unhappy it's only me that can be fearful only me that can be anxious depressed guilty jealous envy me is the cause of all my psychological suffering and the effects are the anger the jealousy the envy the unhappiness the anxiety the stress all those sensations or feelings are the effects of the cause the cause me what is cause and effect is it what they call karma now if you have a look at it and recognise the cause me is a fiction it's just a concept it doesn't exist and then ask the question if the cause is affection can there be an effect or can there be an effect if it's not related to the cause there can't be so you can be rid of all your karma and all your psychological suffering by recognising that it's all that cause and effect and that's what needs to happen and it happens spontaneously and naturally something draws you to come here when you're sick of some of these religious beliefs they've got where you've got to practice this and do that and believe in this and believe in that and if you don't do it you're a sinner a terrible person you're going to burn in hell or won't come back as the next life all these concepts they put on they put the fear of hell into you when realised as you are that life that intelligence that had no beginning and no ending no circumference no something it's even and equal and it is absolute what can you add to absolute nothing whatsoever what can you take away from absolute nothing it wouldn't be absolute and if you recognise you are the absolute who can ever be superior to you couldn't be anybody because if it's absolute they're absolute also and it's one and the same who could ever be inferior to you no one and what would you want from anybody else so it would be a different way of living different way of life and let things be as they are let them unfold as themselves and amazingly enough it can happen it's understood and grasped here and all the problems that used to go on in this pattern the anxiety the fear the stress the guilt the same all sorts of things very little that comes about now and what comes about is just a residual of the old habit patterns and they can't stay too long because as those patterns grew stronger from the time the parents told you you were little Billy or little Jane and it grew with more and more reinforcements when you went to school and everybody around you reinforced until it became overwhelming so this understanding and recognition of your true nature you start off with little glimpses and everybody's had glimpses of it that's why it turns you to look at something else and look at this let those glimpses become longer and stronger and realise your true nature I hear people coming in and say I saw it but I lost it how the hell could you lose what you always are what you always will be it's impossible it might be overlooked or obscured or forgotten like it has been all these years but it's never lost you are that that's the great mantra you've always been that and always will be now a lot of people in this room recognise that and know it so we ask you to tell us about it because you might hear it in a different way to what I'm saying and might resonate with it it might be the very thing that's something that's said that will resonate with you in that resonation it's recognised a recognising and Buddha told us there's a cognising emptiness and he made the statement of that cognising emptiness that emptiness is form all this manifestation are forms and he told you that also because he turned it around the other way emptiness is form and these forms can be nothing other than emptiness so the belief in these patterns shapes and forms is empty you are the emptiness that's believing and remember what I said about belief before an unquestioned acceptance have a look and see so away you go if those of you that have got questions don't understand it question it ask questions somebody might answer it and we'll hear it so Kat I'll hear it back apart from good morning we don't really have any messages from our online community so we're going to request you guys to contribute and ask questions and share and tell us how you're going what's happening anyone is that wonderful thank you thanks Bob it's always a good spiel it's always different and yeah but it is it actually is exactly that too like it's every single word every single pointer is pointing to the exact same place it's just that's all I could hear in the spiel everything was exactly just to the same place and that place is that and there's nothing it's all on the roof it's incredible and so Bob like for example you described like spirit and matter and like matter being condensed spirit or yeah but you also described it's like I am the way I am the truth I am the life and then you describe life life energy intelligence energy life living on life but all these things they are different words aren't they like you are saying the same it's the same thing this energy this intelligence energy that you referred to what is it Bob and I am like it's life stop it I don't mean that elaborate elaborate elaborate elaborate elaborate on life yeah because it's really it's really quite incredible like because it's it's it's it's like like spirit like what you want to call it spirit there's not like seven billion souls there's like there's one one spirit in a sense one essence one life yeah and in that it just it's like it solidifies and makes all these infinite patterns and expressions and yet it's just but nothing's excluded from this like this is spirit like this chair this gross table the floor the table you know everything still is that matter vibrating it's spirit vibrating as in a different way or however you want to look at it semen is are yeah it all appears to be so yes semen yeah no reality no there's no reality to it like this is the crazy part you see that when you go to sleep at night and dream in the dream you can be in the hills or anywhere doing all sorts of things and all you know and all sorts of vehicles and trains everything can be in that dream you wake up in the morning where's it all go it all disappears and you look at it you realise in that dream your body hadn't moved off the bed and no words had come out of your mouth there it's all gone what you don't realise you wake up in the morning you wake up from where you left off the night before in the daylight and it's still all the buildings and things and the people are still there and it carries on from there and the stories and thoughts carry on but it's no thing has ever happened nothing ever will happen no that's what they say it's equal it's uncontrived that it rest in its uncontrived singularity it's a singularity let it relax in and let it rest in it's crazy it's wild Bob like everyone's coming here and doing satsangs and learning and doing all these exercises meditation and this and that and the other and it's like wow believing that they're this separate entity that's got to get something and yet that's not really what's actually going on it appears that it does but it's not and when you're realising that it's not it's like wow it's like it's party time it doesn't because it doesn't matter like it doesn't all these things you'll see written in the scriptures and that but they're all obscured we don't notice don't realise but you know that's all there love you Bob when you say nothing has oh don't you finish yeah but we want people to hear yeah but just when you say nothing ever happened like all this right yeah can you explain that a bit more like when you say okay be okay okay stop right like when you say nothing ever happened yeah like I don't get that like what do you mean no you won't if you think of nothing as a vacuum or a void that's nihilism no that's not but take it as it's said no thing you're a thing I'm a thing the tree's a thing the flower's a thing the stars the planets the energy all those pattern shapes and forms are things as Einstein told you that everything is energy he says I went to sleep I worked on this problem for weeks at least couldn't find an answer trying to work it out and I only couldn't one night he went to sleep woke up next morning and there it was and you've had tastes of that too when the idea or something has come to you when you give me all that so no thing as it means it's got no pattern no shape no form it's empty it's equal it's evenness not separate only the one essence that has been it's beginningless it's endless it's timeless it's spaceless bodiless mindless beyond where when why why why I just perfect but we think of ourself as a thing so we think of ourself as a thing a separate thing and we think of all these other things as separate things but what Bob's saying is there's only one and it's not one as in one and two it's one without a second so it's you know so it appears that there was a thing but there never has a thing it looks like there was a thing it looks like there's a thing here doesn't it there's an appearance of this thing happening isn't it there's an appearing I think another way I I mean yes no thing so this thing never happened it's happening apparently but but it's still appearing it's coming and going I like this quote truth is that which never changes and the same could be said about reality but so this this is just changing it's coming and going it can't be real now a lot of the time when I remember myself or you or anything it's happening in here right recalling some thing in memory which is from when not now right so now is the only reality it doesn't change does it the words the descriptions of now will change but this being prior to the words describing this being hasn't changed it's the same thing looking and talking no I'm saying with a thing it's not the same it's not a thing it's the same whatever whatever is looking through these eyes and speaking and thinking or doing whatever it's doing it's the same that was doing whatever it was doing and it's not a thing I don't know if it's making any sense to you it's not a thing so there's if it's not a thing there's seemingly happening no thing ever happened and another way to look at it I think they're thinking is if you're looking back to what seemingly was by the way it'll change so your memory of our first time meeting here might be different from mine you know what I mean and so who gets to be correct and doesn't it change sometimes like your memory will change you know you remember it in a different way so then your memory is different that can't be the reality okay and I don't know if I'm making any sense to you but I guess what I'm trying to get at is is that if you look at all your thoughts any thought that you could possibly have would be about what seemingly was or seemingly will be how much of a thought can you have about this nanosecond and I love that expression because by the time you like say what and now it's over I'm like like this very second without referring to a past or a future right now how much of a thought can you have about it right so all your thoughts are about a concept or an idea or some thing in the seeming past or the seeming future but again it's seeming because I mean does the future ever come out the way we think it's gonna right and then the past well then that's up to interpretation so again it's dreaming all of it all of it is dreaming huh it's a dream it's dreaming and that like you said understanding I think it would be game changing when you can see that it's like you know when you had a bad dream you ever had a bad dream and you wake up in the morning and you were like it was really real wasn't it you know and you're like oh I had a I was in a plane crash actually the other day you know it happened another day it was while I was making out with George Clooney it was cool okay that was a good dream that was a good dream that was a good dream I like that one but the but the bad dream was the plane crash right so that happened and in the dreaming it was real okay it was real just like it seems really real that we're in a room together right you know it feels really real and then you wake up and I was like oh it was just a dream it wasn't in a plane crash no plane crash good and no George Clooney and no George Clooney but hey that's okay I'll hold it didn't happen nothing no thing and you can see that it's dreaming did it really happen the plane crash the me making out with George Clooney no no no thing ever happened does that work with you I got it I got it I got Tastes thick yeah Tastes thick yeah oh sorry I got Bob wrong I I got him wrong but yeah I mean right now when you were talking I mean and when Bob was talking I just really went to this I can't describe it but like seeing everything and nothing was looking the nothingness was seeing something like that you know if I can put boards in it but you know and then I wondered what to do with it and all that and then I went back to mind again you know the narrator that wondering is also you don't have to separate that either right yeah it's all included yeah so the investigation the mind yeah they're all in that yeah yeah that's yeah nothing was drawn to the other yeah and you can't say anything about it so I wondered why I really wonder but I don't know what else I can see what what else is there to see I don't know like this is it like nothingness is looking but I'm sure I'm not transformed or anything like this is a mind thing because because you believe it and what's the belief I don't know I'm just expecting something you know exactly you have certain set expectation which you believe yeah look at that because you know like the moment you keep explaining and you need to keep explaining to yourself by the way we have a comment from Vivek no thing ever happened things change things change but check would never change it this is exactly was my question nothing never happened that's that was my original question you know yeah and now you come up nothing ever happened no thing ever happened you come up with the idea you know things are changing ignore them go for that which doesn't change discard everything that changes even the belief even the certainty that you haven't been transformed that something is yet to happen in the future which you know doesn't exist because you've never experienced it and all that chatter engaging and trying to explain and translate and understand and understand all mental activity going on and that is part of mental activity believing that something else is yet to happen this is what is changing this is precisely what doesn't matter this is what is to be discarded yet to be seen and I like how actually the energy started from being giving us the you know showing that everything is just one essence expressing in thousand things and saying well so what's there to do you know life is a party you know and then coming through someone says well it's dreaming Julia says life is a dreaming you know life is a a mile life is nothing ever happened see how many metaphors we can have to life and trying to live up to that metaphor we are having and then we had a couple of congratulations for our eighth anniversary of our first date which is a beautiful is it today?

yes so it is another metaphor for life you know life is a romance and it is a beautiful part you know like thinking of life as a totality it has all those metaphors you know you may have a role of a speaker you may have a role of a mother you may have metaphor of life being a tragedy or drama or comedy or romance or whatever it is but life really as a totality doesn't live up to one particular story or metaphor and if you are stuck in that identity and that definition of your life I am a seeker and I haven't found there is still yet something more to get out of life that is exactly how your prism has been built and locked up and you can't get what you already are unless you realize you can't get what you already are okay Jane thank you over no I'm just saying you can't get what you already are you can't get what you already are you just are sorry it's not the line yeah it's not the chatter or the narration it's it is also the chatter and the narration that's what gets missed it actually is also the chatter and the narration it's all of it including the idea that you're not it like move closer to that as well I have a painting in my head oh yeah I think Tony is next as well yeah yeah no no I'm okay I'm okay sorry you were saying before about the dream loved all that stuff about beautifully expressed about the dream and stuff and there's another aspect to that is the measurement of the dream that's also no thing so I think if you just forget the word nothing just apply it to Bob's void you know empty that there was never any universe or anything whatsoever there was just a blackness nothing else that's nothing or void no thing is everything else so any kind of activity to me it's really just life is just activity and that's it it's actually not for me it's not even really being it's just doing doing is all that there is but with no notion or worded sentences coming up describing it at all and those notions and worded sentences are also part of the doing so it's just doing doing doing a notion a sentence a movement it's just everything that is not void like nothing ever happened yet so forget about nothing being even part of this universe nothing is just void no thing is and like I think in your moment when that you described before there's probably just no thoughts were popping up no notions that weren't even worded yet or no worded sentences were arising about the experiencing that was going on right there yeah empty and so the measurement aspect is really just you know like Kat often points out different animals with their different eyes will see a bunch of images that might be red or purple or missing parts of you know what these eyes are seeing or microscope like somebody talks I don't know what others talk about if a microscope's placed on the arm and then space and if you zoom in far enough it'll look the same it'll there'll just be a bunch of and then the person you know looking down the microscope will have another image and then it will be filtered with thoughts notions and worded sentences coming up which are also just things you know described as things and then a worded sentence or a notion about I don't know is that how to describe those because I don't really have them haven't you know had them for a long time but that it's real somehow the belief that it's real is just another thing and my there's no memory here of what that feels like actually because it had been so long since I've believed in the I and my whole life I've never believed in the free will either and some or and then values don't seem to mean anything either because I think values are just used as oh we've got a free will therefore we have to do something according to that value or everything will go bad I'm assuming that's why values are there I haven't found no one's given me another reason why values are there apart from directives you know you don't need a reason yeah so at the end of the day yeah it's just all yeah it's just direction of attention yeah I'd just like to ask Bob a question Bob do you have a completely chatterless mind what do you have has all all the mental chatter completely gone sometimes for hell I wouldn't be able to say anything at all I'd just know but that's all it is and it's not there's no me doing it it is the life itself that's breathing this pattern if that breathing wasn't happening how many words could you speak all the word is is a sound comes out with the breath because I think there's some a misunderstanding sometimes that if there's an awakening or an apparent awakening everything changes yeah but maybe not maybe that but what there's nothing excluded nothing excluded everything is everything remains the only change that seemingly happens is instead of dividing it it's all equal yeah it's all seemingly one it's all even rejected and relating to the self which thinks it goes away and have a look at it like could there be bad without good could there be day without night empty fullness yeah full emptiness yeah beautiful thank you and light and it has to be made clear because I think sometimes you know I've had a profound experience and you know that was fabulous but of course everything comes back yeah but the knowledge but the whole perspective changes yes exactly the whole centre of gravity changes something happened and that's exactly that something happened but when it does happen you can see it was always there yeah nothing new was revealed that's when you say when you say it comes back it never left yeah that's right yeah can we let it stick please yeah yes go you go yeah yeah I have to say it again shh it was when what was it it said nothing nothing had you came back yeah yeah you say it comes back if it's if it's nothing it's not there how can it come back it appeared it was only appearance in the first place it might appear to be so again but is it appearance in reality it's not it's only seemingly so and you also said to me one day you also said to me one day many years ago Bob it was super helpful that the appearance of the me will continue to arise for a while maybe or maybe not but that's just the play too yes so you can keep playing um yeah and I was just offering to you I think you know for what it's worth I think it has been seen and then and then the mind I hear it I've heard you a few times really yeah and then and this is the experience here too then the mind jumps back in bless it and says oh but not this or now it's gone again and you know it's really interesting to have a really good look at yeah what is mind and Bob has you know told mind is just time um but the mind's always going to tell you that the answers I mean I'm just quoting Bob yeah the answer's not in the mind but it will always tell you this is not it it's very funny that way because it can only work in the pairs of opposites right you've spoken it beautifully a few I've only you know a few times you've spoken it beautifully but the mind loves to this was the experience here anyway the mind then loves to want to solidify that that particular moment that felt whatever magical however it's so hard to name isn't it but then the mind wants to say oh that was it so it must be that always and it because it can't see that it was always all of it it was just that it got noticed for a moment it didn't get ignored for a moment you know that's the only ignorance that it gets ignored and attention goes to the mind and that's okay as well and the mind's always going to have that story because what else can it do it doesn't have much else you know except for directions how to get here and there but otherwise if it's not telling a story which is just its habit just like you know the puppy likes to run around the mind likes to run around but the story of the me I think it's just a very favourite story of the mind it is here anyway it's a favourite yeah it's a get over that for sure yes but it is just the mind telling that story yeah I'm so bored of that it doesn't go away who's bored yeah who's the bored yeah who's here to be bored and maybe have a real look at the bored that's my question who and if you don't name it boredom what is that too nothing then right right no no things no thing not nothing no thing it's no this is like can't be it's like it's simple but not easy it's so simple it gets overlooked but it's you know it you were born to the natural state yeah you were born innocent little baby prior to the language it was your home that was a natural state and see how slowly by creating personal story it got obscured and it got overlooked but every time when you go to sleep every time when you lose yourself in doing some activity there is no self that has any judgment about things being bored or about things being trapped see those moments when there is no story and by the way that was beautiful what she pointed is beautiful you know your assumption that there is yet still something else to get versus what you've already experienced from the point of clarity it is so simple and so obvious that's why when the mind opens up and that rubbish gets completely put aside the realization is oh shit it has never ever not been here it has always been here I have always been the consciousness it is called a cosmic joke because the joke is the joke is on you the joke is on me the me that doesn't exist and suddenly there is a realization that that false construct which comes and complains no no not this more pleasure something different this is boring I don't want that this is a joke this is just a cloud on the sky and it happens in the presence that you are and have always been and never for a moment you stopped being it's just that costume and suddenly for whatever reasons probably you know like that's modeling we're learning through imitation we imitate others who also embody the costume and believe they are that but if not for the plain open field of presence or being there is no possibility to even believe that I'm a seeker or I'm a woman none of that could ever happen and then you pause the thought Bob will ask you what's wrong with right now and in that moment there is no belief you don't know what you are you don't know whether you're a woman you don't know whether you're a seeker you don't know whether there is something to get or whether you got it in the past you have no clue about anything because there is no thought and yet your heart is beating breathing is happening life's going on seeing is happening hearing is happening all that aliveness is shining radiating is there only the story I'm not transformed yet all the others you know I'm comparing myself to others who is doing that it's just a mental chatter a software which is designed to always complain because there is no other way to get improvement that's the way it operates but you believe you are the piece of software you are not you stop the software what's wrong with right now and the life goes on software is paused and life goes on you are the life you're not the narrator you're not the commentary and in those moments you know that so there is no possible it is completely impossible that you don't really know and you didn't have moments of clear knowing as clear as Liz or Jane or Bob or I or anyone who actually saw through it because there isn't really anyone who sees through it it's just clear seeing when the one is recognized as a chatter as a software yes when that eye that chatter is recognized to be obscuration life is radiating and you are the life don't you know I haven't seen it that clear that's my point you have the life then I say I'm waiting I'm waiting for that moment who who's waiting who the question this is my biggest question yes yes answer yeah what Tony says who is it when you don't think about it who's there when you don't think about it no one and what's there when you don't think about it and what's me think when you don't think about it what needs to be seen when you don't think about it who's not transformed when you're not thinking about it and if the mind doesn't come and say oh no this is not good enough I want more bliss I want more pleasure this can't be me just that's why it can't be it it can't be that simple you know the mind will always come and complain because that is the design that is what it is for it's doing its job you can pat it on the back yeah yeah yeah exactly but you don't believe it right why giving credibility to something that constantly changes thoughts they have no credibility five minutes ago that thought wasn't there in five minutes it won't be there why would you give it any credibility whatsoever when the direct experience of presence this is credible experiential real right now thought comes and goes thought I want more pleasure or this is not it can't be that simple blah blah they come and go right thank you thank you it is simpler yet simpler whatever whatever we say it is even simpler yes but yes but yes but yes but yes but yes but yes but yes but zeroes and ones binary that's what the mind is that's why we've got computers zeros and ones zeros and ones zeros and ones binary binary yes no yes but yes but yes but yes you know yeah so as soon as you say you know you're expecting something to change well it's going to change anyway but what's behind it you know and had a conversation just earlier when I walked in with Bob and we were saying how's your father how's your father but and I don't even we had a conversation at the end of last week just a brief one I don't even remember what he said but and and I always had this thing about like I'm expecting things to change all the time like why why isn't my circumstances changing or whatever and um a they're constantly changing I don't know what they're going to change into they are what they are and so nothing's changed yet everything's changed so how do you explain that the mic can't explain that but if I accept what is it's okay yeah yeah like that's that's it you know yes but like that'll constantly constantly comes in but let that but go you know it's just it's just it's so it doesn't matter it just it's and you're gonna like the mind's gonna get it wrong anyway whatever you think is gonna happen you might get it occasionally right and and you're still gonna have to deal with what is that's all you can deal with is what is there's nothing else you can deal with where's the but when you don't think about it I don't know but where's the but when you're still thinking about it yeah you know this is just otherwise it's just forever but what but what you know it's just like I don't know yeah I really just and I can never know I can never know yes and this is beautiful because I don't know mind is no mind the mind that wants to have all the logic all the reason and all the explanation is a confused mind oh this is because of that that oh I've understood most of it I still need to understand a couple of points or you put great metaphor oh this is that this means that this is bullshit this is all blah blah Tibor here I don't know I don't know and here we have Vivek says mind the mind end of thoughts is death of the mind welcome to self well it's even simpler than that because the thoughts don't have to end just don't mind the mind don't mind thoughts let them blah blah do whatever they do you know your skin will sweat when it's hot your thoughts will go on because that's part of the design your saliva will flow if necessary your stomach juices your heartbeat all of it is part of the design of the costume it doesn't matter but adopting a place I don't know and I'm okay with that bring up you see all the metaphors of life that we brought into the picture life is a totality total mystery that takes you out of any attempt to understand it put it in words work it out in the mind I don't know it's the mystery and the part of you when you relax really really deeply out of that compulsion to have all the labels and have it all worked out and you find that place where you just trust the mystery because it's leaving the body already and you're totally completely at peace with that to be incomprehensible ineffable the seeker dies where is the seeker the seeker is in the mind that's when the bad thoughts drop off the bad thoughts drop off the bad thoughts drop off in that place so you just have that layer so the thoughts drop off and I have one more comment here from soul the mind attempts to grab an understanding of oneness but cannot experience oneness great point that's a great point like chat GPT explaining consciousness but having no experience of it great point it is just an information gatherer assessing what this seeming organism needs for survival the mind does not experience itself the mind is energized by awareness with the withdrawal of identification with thought there is a being with sensation and energy behind thought the deeper I go into the energy present form dissolves into formless essence beautiful thank you so yeah and a great metaphor too Tony did you want to say something?

no I just I don't have to use the person okay did you want to say something? I might go I'll just say I get you Mitra because I'm kind of waiting too but I know that there's nothing to wait for but the reason I say that that I say that because I mean you get it you absolutely get it you said it before it's just what's looking the emptiness is looking I get that too but that idea of wanting something big it's going to be oh and it's going to drop and then there's that experience and I don't know whether it helps having medicine as well because you get all those experiences and it's like oh so you come in a sense like there's an expectation that's going to be like like you said it's just wow it's gone but maybe that's never going to happen for us maybe this is just it and that's okay experiences don't matter yeah and Bob keeps he keeps stressing on it he's been through all sorts of experiences kundalini experiences everyone had experiences of great elation of great sexual orgasms of great pleasure and a great sadness and a great loss all of it and they all have the same nature they're just fleeting appearing on that sky-like awareness what does it matter whether it comes with experience or not experience is precisely to be overlooked because it is a cloud it is a distraction I think that's what we've got to stop looking for yes stop looking for it yeah we've just got to drop that our whole idea that there's going to be a big bang and just say well this is it forget whether there's a big bang where is it going to go it is just a description anyway and again whatever experience you have is not going to last so what's the point like whatever like you have this amazing experience and then what like and then what and then what and it's just like are you going to want it again or a different one or like because that's not it that's the thing it's not in that you know I just have to ask Bob again Bob when you went to Nisigadatta in your path up until when you met Nisigadatta what changed from the time you met Nisigadatta to before you met Nisigadatta what changed oh when I heard what he said what he said and I've been told by many others this time it sort of resonated and everything sort of that's it there was a point of realizing the true self or seeing or experiencing the true self and that was different to before that happened yeah did you get choirs of angels touching you from the sky and the light no but but what I'm just trying to point out but just I'm trying to say is that there is a shift it is something happens and there is a shift something drops away there's a recognizing a recognizing yeah yeah I wasn't the body I wasn't the mind I said I'll never be caught in the mind again and saying it clearly I said it was very clear I walked out the door and it was caught it came up and then you think of course like people do I lost it but then it was just obscured by the concepts were going on and going recognizing it hang on a minute I really did settle down again without making a story out of the concepts that are coming out it's relaxed and it showed itself again and as it further went the more it showed itself and the lessenest the chatter and all the stuff would come up while they're coming out yeah yeah because I think there's a there's a sort of a denying of the fact that there is a point where the scales drop where the where the imagination drops yeah to reveal what's always been there it's just the same as there was a point when the imagination started yeah when you learnt words yeah of course but there is a point that that occurs in the life yeah in the apparent life and so it's not just oh it's just always that there is a change occurs to reveal what has always been there and never was anywhere but there yeah there certainly is a change as it occurs I'm not the nasty bastard I was yeah and I'd be all so happy about that but that is again only valid in the story and it is important to highlight it that those ideas of a shift or change or moment which you can put the date and an hour and a minute on it it only valid in the story which lives in the mind and yes it is a valid metaphor you can say you were born on particular day you can say you lost the sense of self on particular day but this is a story of me nevertheless that's why very often people do not want to go to that personal story like you know whatever one guy going through the park another guy sitting on the bench another guy getting a cockroach going through the arm and all those stories want to be replicated or Jesus and everyone wants to be like him so they can experience the same thing that he has experienced all those stories can be also confusing because we've seen through the years that we're hanging here people who never had defining moment and for them the realization of no self is moment to moment realization and then the next moment the self reiterates itself and the next moment it drops and maybe it will shift permanently or maybe it won't shift permanently but the shift permanent or impermanent is a part of the human story which we are not interested in really here the differences instead of continuing to divide and separate take everything in don't separate it I think I think what it is is you know when Bob gave me the book I Am That and I read it and I read it again and I read it again there was there was a knowledge that the the bondage I'd been stuck in was was the me or the self or the ego or the self center and that that you know once having seen that when it came up again which again is identification with the me or the or the self or the ego or the story or the narrator that that that it didn't stay there for very long because I knew it was a phantom and it still comes up and then it dissipates it comes up it dissipates but but I know it's just the nature of the mind it's the nature of the memory it's a you know whatever whatever but I've never ever been in bondage to it from that time Bob gave me that book you know the book pointed me to the place I never left the book pointed me to who I really was and the rest of it as as is also that as you so rightly said continues it's like the the sky let's say the sky is the awareness that we are let's say the clouds which come and go sometimes they're little cumulus clouds sometimes they're big dark rainy clouds you know that's the mind you know or the memory or the identification with the narration you know but the sky is always there and and what happened what has happened here is there's more attraction to the sky than the story and I know I'm not that story I know you're not that story I know I'm not the me I know Bob's not the me Kat's not the me none of us are the me and yet that story continues but the sky or that awareness is always there which is the attraction now it's not the story so someone said to me the other day oh I'm looking forward to a time in my life where there's no conflict I said good luck with that is there going to be a day where I will never have any conflict I said good luck with that you know it's the nature of the mind but but what's so beautiful is is that the resistance becomes less the resistance to what is the seeing becomes the attraction yeah you said you know pointed it out there that said the sky becomes more pronounced that's what I've been telling you from the start sky is space yes so you realise it's all a basic space of phenomena that's why it becomes attractive because it's the reality everything appears in it I was just going to say that for me I'm finding more of this unfolding in the ordinary it's not in that like wow like you know I see the sun just shining past the clouds now and I can see the sky it's just like you know really ordinary things that are just like oh okay it's like oh okay it's in that rather than wow you know that's what they call that too ordinary they call that the natural state yeah as in nature yeah it's it's quite uncanny actually yeah because I was looking for that boom moment as well and I was looking for the change and like where's this change like it's I want the change to happen I want it to happen like yesterday you know and it was really quite different to that and I'm not saying it's everyone's different I'm just saying that was that you know and also like going to different teachers over the years and this and that and the language and getting lost in the language is it self with a capital S is it the little self the big self the I the me the you know it's just like oh my you know rubbish right and it's just no it's just in the everyday ordinariness of it absolutely in the good bad indifferent you know whatever it is whatever is unfolding every moment that's where it's at the common garden variety yeah garden variety absolutely I think it's stated also as a subtraction not an addition there's nothing added being added it is about loss of incorrect thought or identifying with thought yeah it's just you know it's ever present so how can it ever be added to it was always there the mind creates this mirage in front of it this is kind of habitual thing of an identity and then when that is seen through what else is there they were still absolute the absolute can't add to it can't take away correct yeah full you can't add to fullness fullness cannot be added to fullness fullness cannot be separated from fullness same thing I have a couple of comments here from the online community and Robin says I like that and then what that was Anita yes absolutely and Vivek says Kat used the word confused mind watch the chattering confused mind and it will become still exactly and then so let go of expectations of enlightenment as that creates a seeking for something in the future be with what is present the mind only has a concept of what is present center in the heart just being without label beautiful beautiful who said that that soul I was just thinking of that song is that all there is it's from the 90s I think is that all there is is that all there is my friend well let's keep dancing thank you so much for the pointers like especially the ordinary because I have big problems with ordinary and that was the biggest I think reason for addiction because I always just you know I easily get bored you know that's been my issue all my life love so anyway so I have to have that adenylen or something different something has to be different for me to feel good so that was a really you know I really have to sit with what is wrong with ordinary like what that brings up in me but I have this question like when I hear all that because I've been following some other teachings that apart from this that you see the reality there is a parallel work going as well and that's the shadow work and you have to do it according to my understanding now either before that clear seeing which I call it awakening right which I think I haven't had but you guys say I've seen it but anyway so you have to do it before yeah no I Bob's eye hasn't got it either no I can ever have any understanding of clarity because I is a thought clarity is there and thoughts come and obscure it so I didn't get it and you can never get it because it is the absence of you that brings the clarity up so anyway you were talking about the shadow yeah thank you yeah so you say you're following some other teaching stay there you you know you want to follow the one thing and see it through when you're dividing it up to something else probably all sorts of different concepts different ideas in get you more and more confused keep it simple yeah like like now that it's think no thinking that's it okay no division as soon as I think there is division I get that you know you get one thing and you're doing some possible investigation one way another way to do it you drop that so you're getting more confused again in the more and also it is probably another way of dealing with boredom going and doing some shadow work or going and doing medicine or going and doing whatever adventures or whatever romances whatever it is it's probably the same pattern of mind wanting more of variety and more of pleasure more of excitement and it's nothing wrong this is a nervous system which has been trained to have particular level of stimulation and when that level of habituated level of stimulation isn't met there is a craving for more stimulation but if you really want to be free you actually realize that you are the awareness in which the craving happens and as some of the cravings have already dropped away because that interest that curiosity was fascinating and stimulating enough to actually watch all those desires that you didn't really have to go and follow through on them perhaps all the other ways of finding varieties and pleasures even a difficult work dark work or whatever hard exercise all of that see what is it that makes you go and just look at the motivation what is it is it another way of being a seeker pleasure seeker freedom seeker whatever seeker of just being stuck in that persistent identity of I'm not it and there is something that has to happen in future when I finish the work or when I ingest this amount of ayahuasca whatever it is freedom is here now and from what you say I just realized oh sorry did you you want to say so from what you say I realized that there is no need for shadow work because you can always go back to the so yeah it's endless right so it's like just just going to that whatever it is like I don't gotta you know whatever it is like to the awareness right and that's it no need for shadow work no need to okay like I'm a very neurotic person right I mean it runs in my whole family each of us got different neurotic so so not looking at that not working on that that's not required right it's not required it doesn't mean it won't happen but see what a different approach if you find yourself from the point of freedom joyous expression in singing or dancing or doing shadow work or writing books or whatever it is from the point of freedom not the point of luck not the point of I need to do that to complete myself to find myself to release myself or whatever the it doesn't mean you should deprive yourself from any pleasures you can't either again you look at the at the wildlife and you see what's natural will come up the narrative is not necessary the justifying story the meaning is not necessary it may show up but if you understand that this is an adornment it's an ornament it's a decoration it's a little lace on the picture it is not the truth at any point and it's not necessary that's the freedom everything may still show up you may have greatest appreciation for every beautiful story family story personal story impersonal story netflix stories all of it but from the point of freedom you can see life expressing a beautiful butterfly or rainbow or story or chair or whatever but it doesn't come from the sense that oh this is gonna give something to me this is gonna complete me this is gonna liberate me because you are the life itself liberated as that relaxed life when the thought the obscuration is not there you can see the beautiful expression rather than the bondage that you are trying to avoid escape or mitigate mitigate sedate you can close five past five past five past see you on zoom tomorrow yes tomorrow it