What is Emptiness? Sailor Bob and troops on ND

It is the new one, and the new one, I know. So, we have the first one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, and the other one, Ready to go?

Haven't plucked my ears yet. Why did I remind you? Because you are a kind, beautiful current man. Good to see you all. And that is basically what we're on about, what we talk about. There's non-duality. And all that's happening is just to remind you of what you already are. It might not have been recognised, it might have had taste of it. The fact is that it is already that. That is all there is. Absolutely no duality whatsoever in non-duality. Though it appears to be so. And how could one thing be discriminated from another thing if it didn't appear that way? So each and every one is already that.

That is all that there is. And that is what they tell you in the scriptures. They say the great mantra is I am that. And that is so, we know that. Because that's the chair you're sitting in. That's the carpet that's on the floor. That's the room. That's the tree. That's the flower. We already know that it's all that. But we've learnt words and to discriminate it. We put the labels on a chair, table, map, tree, flower, or whatever. And discriminating with the words. But the words are that also. There is no thing that has ever been dual. Anything other than what is. One without a second.

We've got the idea that we are this separate entity. This individual. This person. But am I that person? Am I separate? Well, if it's one without the other, one that's non-dual, how could there be anything at all that is separate from it? It can be divided. And that's what needs to be investigated and understood and grasped and seen for what it is. And in the recognising and knowing of it can anybody or anything ever knock you off your perch when you're still seen. As they say, know the truth, the truth will set you free. When you recognise the truth and know it for certain, and the false, anything that is not the truth if you investigate, as they tell you, the false cannot stand up to investigation.

They call it, in the ancient texts, way back thousands of years, they call it the great perfection. And they call it the great perfection. or the absolute. And they call it the, what is it? Great perfection. Did I say that? The absolute, the one without a second. Though my mind's not functioning too well today, I'm getting past it. the ever fresh, cognising emptiness. They say, it is a cognising emptiness. And emptiness has the capacity of cognising and knowing. And so, emptiness, what it told us, that emptiness is form. So all of these forms, that appearing to be so real, are empty, empty forms. Because he turns around, form is emptiness, and emptiness is nothing other but form.

Not separate. Again, not separate. And that, and that, and that, and that, and that, and that. Do you want to take over? Okay, I'll try to keep you on, include you. Okay, so we had this discussion with Bob also about, someone was asking us a question, about the definition of space. What does he mean by space? And he said emptiness. Simply emptiness. Oh yeah. Yeah, they call it emptiness, like space. Emptiness is formed. Now space. Can you postulate, or think of anything outside of space? When you look around you, and realise, that you are in space right now. Space is all around you. Wherever you look, there is space.

And all these, pattern shapes and forms, are appearing in space. Does space have any centre to it? Well can you find a centre to it? Can you grasp it? And say it has any beginning? Any static point where it starts? You can't. Does it have any ending? It hasn't. So it has no beginning, or no ending. Now can you postulate, a place where it begins? Can you think of anything, that could be outside of space? So when they are telling you, it's space like emptiness, you realise, that everything, is the content of space. That includes you, me, the tree, the flowers, the chair, anything at all.

It's all things. Space is no thing. But it is the content, of space. You cannot postulate, or think of anything outside of space. Have a look at that, and see for yourself, as much as needs to be done. And we think space, is like, this, space here, we think it's something separate, apart from it. But, and so we've got that wall there. That wall is just a plain wall. We've got the, the photos, the pictures on it, the things that are rather attached to the wall, they're all adornments, of the wall. All appearing things. But without the wall, could they be attached up there. The same with the space, everything is the adornment of that space.

This body, this mind, the trees, the flowers, that's all. And that's the problem. We see the, the things that are appearing in it. They're all appearing, seemingly so. And we take them to, the appearance to be real. But the appearance, is not the actual, it's not the real. It's only how it seems to be. And they call it, a cognising emptiness. Emptiness is form. The form is emptiness. So that's that, emptiness, the space, which is empty, that forms appearing. It seems to appear, and seem to be real. And we've taken as real, and separate ourselves. This body, this mind, have a look at it. Are you the body?

Are you the mind? Are you the separate entity, the individual? If, it is non-dual, as I tell him this, can there be anything, separate or apart from it? At all. Can there be anything, that is not it? Only if it can be separated. But to see, that's why we need to question, look, can you separate anything at all? You can apparently, seemingly so, with the thought, the concepts, the ideas. But have a look at the thoughts even. How do the thoughts wear? As Shakespeare told you a couple hundred years ago, they're a vibration, the movement of energy. And he says, there's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

It's vibrating into the opposite. What's this thing you call mine? How is it functioning? Not in the past, which is a memory. Now past is a memory, it's gone now. The past is not the slowest, it's not the actuality. Try and live in the past if you can. See it, to question it. If you can't tell me what happened five minutes ago, it's gone for good. But otherwise, if it's still there, it can be recalled. And actualized in the moment, or seemingly actualized. But it's not the reality. The future, you can anticipate and imagine. So there's no future unless it's anticipated and imagined. What about this now mode?

Well now, is spontaneous. You can anticipate and imagine the future. You can recall the past to a certain extent. But what about right now? Well grasp that if you can. I've got it now. But it's already moved away. I've got it again. It's moved away. So it hasn't got any duration. Time is duration. Has a start and hangs around for a while. Duration. Seemingly in time. But this spontaneous moment is not time. It's prior to time. It is spontaneity. A present vibration or seeming movement in this time, space. So time and space are not separate. Movement and stillness. High and low. All these concepts we've got which seemingly divide it are only conceptually so.

So start to recognize things like that. And ask yourself the simple question. Am I unaware right now? Well you realize no. There is an awareness of being present here right in this moment. I cannot say I am not. Sure you can say I am not. But what are you thinking you're not? You think you're not this or not that or something else. But you can't actually say you are not because the very word I'm not. Isn't that a concept or a thought? And so I am this or that or something else. It's all conceptual. All thoughts. All feelings. All emotions. All happening spontaneously. There is only that again.

So what happens when I recognize and know for certain that that is what I am? A thought comes up like thoughts have been coming up and telling me I'm this, I'm that or something other. I'm not good enough or I'm fearful. Where before it would be latched onto. Try to be worked out with another thought, another concept, another idea. And the story would start. And I'd build the story about myself. I'm so and so, I'm this, I'm that or the other. And that story goes on and on with more thoughts. But the great perfection, they tell us, is non-conceptual awareness. What are thoughts? Well when you look at the thoughts, you see the thoughts are concepts.

What's a concept, a mental construct. Made up of... Mental images. Mental constructs. All made of words. And it tells you in the Bible that. That's how it all started. In the beginning was the word. When did you begin? And you really look and try and tell them. And you'll say, I began at birth. Well that's what we've come to believe. That's what we looked into. But can you remember your birth? Well there's no one here that can actually remember your birth. And when you look into that and reason it out, you'll see why. Because you didn't have any words when you were born. So if you didn't have any words, how could you say that?

How could you use that statement? But there you were, you'd come out. And the livingness, the awakening, or the wakeful beingness, or livingness was there. And that being, or knowing and loving to be, has been there ever since. And as the spontaneous movement of energy goes on, which seemingly creates the concept of time goes along, the capacity of reasoning develops. Thoughts come up and we look into them and learn more thoughts and more. That's the way the reasoning functions. And we believe we are the word. We are this person. We are the separativity. And the concepts and ideas and words are constantly changing. Because the concept that I had five minutes ago mightn't sit right now as a reality.

So we form another concept. And this out on what they call the great perfection, is non-conceptual awareness. Without a concept. A concept, when you look into it, is a mental construct. A thought. A thought is a vibration. A vibration is a movement of energy. A sound. A word. A noise. So these sounds, words, noises, or voice, whatever it comes about, which we call words, again we take on to believe this me. This separate entity. And it reinforces this idea that I am this person. This separate entity. And people all around us are reinforcing it also. Because none of us ever look into it. And never investigate it.

And that's what the ancients have pointed out in the scriptures. They call it ignorance. Because we take for granted what our parents taught us. And the words we've learnt. And what other people around us we're believing in. Their words, our words are real. And they've taken the word to be real. And this out what they're pointing to. And what the meaning is. But then, looking at what they found and saw years ago. That the word is not the thing. Look into that and recognise. Because they tell you, you need to look into the false. Look at this ignorance. Not that we dull or stupid. That we don't know.

It means that we are ignoring what is before our very eyes right now. There is nobody in this room who is unaware. There is nobody in this room who is not knowing. There is nobody in this room who has not been. But there's probably a lot of us in here who are conceiving that I'm so and so, I'm this, I'm having a bad time. What about all these fears? What about all this actionness and self-pity? And fright and remorse and anger and jealousy. That I've had and held on for years. What am I going to do about this or that? Go in and revive the story again.

And get some concept or idea that it can be worked out in the mind. What happens if I listen to what they say? They tell me you'll never get the answer in the mind. No matter how much you try, you'll never ever find the answer in the mind. That's why they call it... The peace that passes all understanding. That's the label they're talking about. The peace that passes all understanding. That means if the answer's not in the mind, you're not going to get peace of mind. You can't. Because it's the nature of the mind to vibrate. And it's always vibrating in interrelated opposites. Either good, bad, pleasant, painful, happy, sad, high, low, here, there, you, me, this or that.

Have a look at your mind and see. What happens if I pause the thought for a moment? And I realise that I can't pause the thought for very long. Because I am not the thinker of the thought. What's my next thought going to be? I can't tell you. And is there anybody here that can tell me what your next thought will be? When you look at it close, you'll see you can't. But a thought will come up. And immediately claimed by the believed in concept we have about ourselves, I think. Who or what is it that thinks? Isn't this a conceptual image, me, Bob, the Australian, the person, and so and so, that's hanging on to all those concepts, got the idea that I think.

But when the concept, I think, what have I done? I formed a thinker. A subject. Now, this believed in entity, this so-called person, has become a subject. I'm the good for, I'm this and that, I'm the subject. And the thought I'm thinking about this or that or whatever it is, has become the object because there's an awareness of it. It's not what I am, there's a knowing of it. So, that's where the split has come about, the division. Subject, object. Subject, object means two. What are we all about? One. One without a second, non-dual. Well, I'll look into it again. Subject, the thinker, I think.

Can there be a subject, a thinker, without the thinking? Well, I'm not saying I think, and just with what is at the moment, without translating into a thought or a concept. What can you say? You might get a brief pause there for a moment, where there's no thought. But have you disappeared? If you get that pause, that gap, tiny as it may seem, is it the end of you? Has the breath stopped? Has the heart beating stopped? Has the living ceased? The beingness ceased? It hasn't. But in that little pause, you realise that the breathing was still happening, the heartbeat had happened, there were other things going on in your body, feeling, tasting, touching, all sorts of functioning was going on, but we weren't relating it to the thought, I see, I hear, I think, I feel.

Look at that thought I see. Can the thought I see actually see? Well, set your eyes and have a look, and see what you can see with the thought. Can the thought I think, think, don't bother thinking for a moment, and see what happens without the thought, is it the end of you? The thought I feel. Is feeling stuck? There'll still be feelings, there are sensations, but who is it that thinks, feels, sees, tastes, touches, or smells? Who is this I, this separate entity, that believes it can do all these things? We'll go back to where it was again. Isn't it the conceptual thought that's come up when we learnt words?

I is me, rather than the Australian, I think, I feel, I see, I taste, I touch, I smell. Now this conceptual image is believed to be something concrete, solid and real, that I'm relating to, that's being related to. What's relationship? Relative. Relative to. Me and other. Relationship is duality. Me and other. The seeming division. Non-duality is non-relative. It's living at one without a second. Not two. Only the one. So then you see, oh, the thought I think is not separate. The thought I feel is not separate. The thought I can do this. None of the thoughts are separate. So whether it is good or bad, and we want the good and don't want the bad, we try to separate it and get one or the other, doesn't matter.

It doesn't really matter because it changes of itself. We try to become good, we try to become, trying to get one part of the other. But it is non-dual. It is always and ever been non-dual. All this is non-dual. Even though there's a separation, appears to be the separation, the pattern, the shapes and forms, the myriads of things, the 10,000 things, none of them are what they appear to be, or separate. There is nothing, no thing, no one, that's going to be conceptualised or appear outside of space. Try and see it. Try and postulate or think of something that's going to be outside of this basic space, which is in this room right now, and which all these patterns, shapes and forms, including the wall, the carpet, the things on the wall, you, me, and every so-called thing in it, the content of space.

None of it can be separate from the space. None of it can be separate from the space. So dualism is a fiction. It never has been anything other. One world, one being, one intelligence energy, one activity of knowing. All that. And when they tell us again, see that, recognise, and let it rest. Relax. Let the thoughts, the feelings, and things that are going on, without attaching to them, or fixing it, and let it rest in its uncontrived singularity. it is a singularity not good or bad but see it just as it is in the moment not contriving it as something other just let a tree rest in a sun contrived singularity look at it see how there it is in nature they've got this earth rolling around the sun the sun seemingly static in the sky and the earth moving around this part of the earth is facing toward the sun so it's light the other part of the earth facing away from the sun the sun can't get to it and it's dark but has it been separate?

can it separate the earth and the sun? they're both the content of space they're not separate they can't be divided they can't be separated that applies to everything as it tells you that anything can be the right way is not difficult for those who have no preference when love and hate are both absent when they're either loving or hating everything becomes clear and undisguised why? how can it become clear and undisguised? we've got no conceptual image that are obscuring it we're leaving it as it is make the smallest distinction however and heaven and earth are set it's inter-prepared now heaven and earth are just like heaven when we look up in the heavens the old saying is we're told that the sky is the heaven and the earth is rolling around the heaven are they separate?

can they ever be separate? were they or will they? just like the sun earth rolling around the sun now they can't and yet we've got this conceptual idea that it's separate made the smallest distinction and set them instantly apart and we're in problems that's the same with thinking we distinct good thought and bad thought see what comes about thinking's happening right now the thought comes up I think you form the subject the thinker and that thinker being the subject is not just the the word I think it's me Bob the Australian the thought up or conceptual image the thought up image I've got now becomes the subject the thinker and the thought what's being thought has become the object because there's an awareness of this thought whatever it might be but they're both the concept content of awareness if there was unaware could I know anything I couldn't so what they say the great perfection is non conceptual awareness they say you will not find the answer in the mind because it's the nature of the mind to vibrate as we know there's nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so what do I do when I breathe in ask yourself don't we inspire another word for it inspire and we think we're inspiring all these words are thoughts inspirations enjoy what they are but we think it's me that has this inspiration but try and stop your breathing see how long you can hold the breath for and that inspiration will spontaneously happen don't it try it it'll happen so we make this inspiration and what we've done is we fix on this is a good thought it's a bad thought but hang on to it and so we keep it there and it's just like you've got in the ocean you won't have the rock sticking up and the tide runs in and out around it and as it washes out the water washes around the stone and leaves it there well the thought we hang on to and fix on instead of letting it go out with the breath we hang on to it and keep it there and another thought is attached to it and another one and another one and we've got this conceptualizing and what happens when they tell it let the thought ride out with the breath that thought that you might be fixating on just breathe it out and you notice when you breathe out what happens before you take that next breath there's a tiniest gap where it's neither in or out in the tiniest gap do you disappear is it the end of you or is there still a life there that's taking in that next breath bringing in more thoughts feelings and emotions but you recognize if you're not hanging on the thoughts we hang on to and fixate on it keep us there keep us in the story and if you're not fixating on to it it's fresh and new leave the thoughts fresh and new spontaneous spontaneous and that's what they call it ever fresh ever new spontaneous not the old not last week's thoughts images concepts and ideas but life is ever fresh it's ever new it is spontaneous it's not me living a life it seeming has a continuity in it but it hasn't it only lasts a moment not even a moment it's spontaneous a spontaneous emanation and realize and recognize that I am that life and isn't that so if you doubt it question it have a look who or what is breathing right now well to put it in words I'll say I am what's that I am it's the concept the thought if I'm not saying I am does the breathing stop well I can't stop it for very long it happens so when Shakespeare tells you there's nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so now you might take a different look at it where we thought it was the being of all and ending of all now we recognize hang on a minute what is there wrong with it if I don't think about it and get it let the slightest pause for a moment and recognize well I don't die without that thought can't pause the thought but the life is still there that enables me it might be me thinking I've got to take another breath it'll be the spontaneous natural activity of the body the life essence of it the activity of knowing the intelligence energy all different concepts we use and you can relate to every one of those because that's how it's going isn't it is there anyone who's not thinking or believing or knowing or seeing or hearing or tasting or touching or smelling right now it's happening but again have a look at that is it a separate entity that's doing it and that's the thing we need to look at and investigate am I a person am I this individual can that I do anything at all and you realize the I the thought itself cannot do anything the thought I am aware is not the awareness the thought I think is not the thinking the thought I choose is not the choice maker the thought I feel is not the feeling these thoughts come up but there is seeing there is hearing there is tasting touching smelling thinking what does that leave it in the ing not I see but the thinking there is everybody there that is not thinking right now the seeing there is nobody there who is not seeing the hearing the tasting the touching so they recognize and realize that life is prior to the thought prior to this believed in entity and the concepts we're putting on it which are obscuring it we're hiding it under words concepts and ideas and taking on the belief I'm this person that's feeling this and doesn't like that and is unhappy creating all the psychological suffering all the misery all the feeling all the beliefs we hold and live in take on board that cause all the psychological suffering the fear the anxiety the stress the guilt the unhappiness all happening to me not relating to anything and again not related can anything be separate so I have to look for the good and don't like the bag I know as I told the in leave it as it is and it changes by itself the manifestation is constantly changing it's transient it's transient living that body is changing right now recognise and realise that there's not one cell dying in it at this moment there are thousands scientists and people will tell you that not only changing but dying but re-replaced what are you doing about it as this person that's running the show nothing so don't forget to remember that I already am that that I always have been that I always will be that there's nothing to become because becoming implies a future time becoming is not being or being we're talking about being am I being right now well I'm certainly not becoming I'm certainly not was-ing so I must be so I am that being take the word human off it take away God off it and leave it as it is in its purity I am the pure and only and actual beingness it's expressing through each and every other pattern that's in this room it is not separate beingness in this room you and I are one oneness is all there is all there ever is you and the so called God are one you and this and that are one so what do I need to see what do I need to become what do I need to find to find and then I might understand what they're telling me I am that you are that that is all there is and that is what you are recognise it realise investigate it and see it and take it on board don't lose sight of it which we've done until naturally and evidently you won't be able to get away from it the initial seeing might take a bit of looking through because the habitual pattern of believing in an entity was going on and it seems very strong it's caught up in it for years and still sometimes it will show its ugly head but once seen through and that's what they say the false cannot stand up to investigation that's what's necessary recognise the false as false and know the truth it's in all the scriptures they all tell you that know the truth and the truth will set you free and the only thing to be free from is the belief that there is anything separate or tall or apart in this manifestation and that will do me for a little I'll have to give this game away I'm not getting worse as it's going on the whole age is getting out of me go on kids that's not true you're going to have many good days ahead of you that's your concept I see this concept as well yes so we have and welcome as you came later we have no questions we have twenty few people with us and we have good morning messages but no questions so the mic goes to you guys questions invited and sharing and yeah anything does comes up and thanks thanks everyone thanks bob so you started by saying talking about cognising awareness doesn't cognising imply a thinker no cognising emptiness doesn't cognising imply cognising awareness yeah cognising and awareness are kind of synonymous so he uses buddhist term cognising emptiness he doesn't use the term cognising awareness because it's like battery battery but are you unaware right now depends on your definition of awareness well being knowing all I know is my heart is beating like I'm alive as a person I know like well you're aware of that's a concept though yeah that's a very big concept yeah but you can't have it when you are unconscious you can't have that concept or when you're asleep that's right yeah yeah you can't have that concept so right now if he asks if you are unaware no you're not unaware because you can answer the question so obviously there is an awareness there otherwise you wouldn't be answered you wouldn't even record the question yeah okay so if I'm then when I'm asleep or unconscious I'm not aware but when you wake up you say I slept well how would you know yeah no you wouldn't well you're making a lot of presumptions yeah yeah but you know you slept well because you know there was no disturbance there at the time if you dreamt you'd know you'd dreamt well you don't did you hear that car going past if you remember did you hear that car going past I did you were aware of it yes you don't even recognize it but the awareness is there yeah but how do you know that the awareness is there all the time well if you were not aware you wouldn't be alive how do you know that the awareness doesn't start and stop well you're born every moment could be so before you also asked you also said that um sorry um that's what we wanted are you unaware right now I don't know what's happening right now actually well are you are you are you unaware am I unaware I can hear you talking and I know I'm in this room how would you describe that yeah that's nice yeah you're aware of the talking yeah aware of the truth yeah but then you're talking about it we're always so you talk about a cognizing awareness that is never he never uses term cognizing awareness okay cognizing emptiness yeah my apologies so what's your definition of an emptiness which is a buddhist term in a very buddhist context and so how do you how do you use what's your definition of emptiness no shape no form no pattern no shape no form no pattern no thing no thing no concept and yet aren't we conceptualizing one one aren't we conceptualizing one not even one not even one it just is yep so sometimes when we speak we do talk about it as one like this non-dual as one and as space as we use the analogy of space yes um until it's all appearance all seems to be so yes yes it's just pointers we're not claiming that there is some one substance or there is some thing called awareness that's why it is really an intuitive grasp kind of like a resonation with something that is innately known on the level that is beyond language if you want to get it to the head you can pull apart every single pointer they're all bullshit every concept is bullshit we admit it it is really a pointer beyond the mind beyond the language yes to what you are when you stop thinking you're still existing and that's what it tells you the way is beyond language there's no yesterday no tomorrow and no today no thing it's empty empty of shapes and forms and patterns which are vibrations energy and emptiness is form form is emptiness and so this awareness is not a form is not a shape is not a pattern just another label we put on things we label everything and the words not the thing drink the word water can you drink the word the word fire can you cook with it the word me what is it yeah so these words are just imputed onto certain forms pattern shapes and forms and that and that's the same as us as individuals it's the same as the awareness we're still imputing upon our experience what we do we're seemingly divided from the actual the totality into all these pattern shapes and forms it is no division or separation in it it's the one essence pattern shapes and forms and expresses in what they call the ten thousand things or the myriads of different ways but no thing has ever happened not nothing a vacuum will avoid but no thing you are a thing I'm a thing we've got patterns shapes and forms that's a thing every pattern shape and form and manifestation are things which broken down and looked really no thing a bit a bit hard to see got any doubts keep questioning looking at it that's what you know I notice clearer than all the time that my presence intensifies the energy in here I just want to confess that I'm working hard on it that's why I don't feel apologetic it's just a process of purification of the system I notice people take me serious and I am serious but there's nothing inside it's just a seriousness without anything inside it with intention tension but I'm working on it just like everybody else yesterday for example I dedicated the whole day and night to just sitting and then I stand up and walk because of my back pain I remember Terry had some back pain, some massager.

Interesting is that that massager is in my room now, is inside my room in the drawer, the same massager. That's also interesting. But just bear with me and plus that, if I notice that I'm intense, I won't come here. And that's how I imply my consideration. I want to be normal. I mean, not normal. In the middle. This is just an accident. I live alone, I don't interact with people. Yeah, that's the way I am. That's what, let's say, that's what God wants it to be. And I'm working on it. Good that you're working on it. That's amazing. Something's moving you to work on. I was the same as you, too.

I wouldn't have a bar of God or anything else at all in it. Dirty on the world and everybody in it. Something made me look into the stuff that I wouldn't have looked into before. Took me from out of the depths to where I am today. Losing memory, getting old and dying. But it changed it. So it's good that you're looking. You're not looking, you're knocking yourself about believing in it. That's causing all sorts of emotional disturbance to go on in that way. Yes. And I remember you used several times emphasis on the constantly changing. This is constantly changing. Although it doesn't appear as constantly changing at all.

But it is evaporating and then start to vibrate. You know, when it becomes a little bit lighter, more transparent. You know, this is transparency, vibration. You know, adapting with all kinds of situations. But when you're dense and solid, you know, you've got an accident with the situation. You've got to experience pain and heat pain. And then, yeah. You know, you live on a saw. If you go forward, you cut. If you go backward, you cut. You can't do anything except stillness. Trust me, trust me. I'm better than I look like. You are. You are that. Whether you look like it or not, that's all there is.

You're already that. We put the limitations, the handicap ourselves. This is why you're not a good better. You put the better on the wrong horse. I'm making progress. I'm making progress. Go ahead. Go ahead. Hold on. I'd just like to comment about the notion of prayer. It's a rather interesting notion that intelligence energy is trying to do something with intelligence energy. But so-called religious people indulge in prayer. I don't quite understand where prayer sits in all of this. Can you comment? The musical people enjoy music. Where is the music sitting with them? I see that as quite different because with prayer there's always expectation. People have desires or a desire and they're wanting a certain result or a certain manifestation.

So it's not like music. It depends on the person. We've been speaking with someone who is a musician and he had a really strong performance anxiety. But he at the same time really wanted that attention of the crowd. So there was a conflict. Only the moment you really saw through the illusion of self, he became one with music. And most of the people that I know as musicians are absolute attention junkies. That's all. Yes. They don't even have particular talent for music sometimes. Yes, I understand that what you're saying. Desire. Desire for attention. Desire in prayer is I want to win the lottery. Desire is always the human condition when the mind gets in a central point and seem to run the show.

The narrative seems to run the show. The function of it is to always find something better. Not this. Something else. Something more. Something better. More money. More name. More fame. More attention. Whatever it is. More. Something different. Not that. Not this. It's a human condition. But there are also prayers that say thank you. They don't want anything. So when you became one with the music, you still perform? Yes. The life performs too. Yes. Absolutely. No. He becomes performance anxiety and still has the desire to perform to an audience. Absolutely. He actually stopped noticing any of it. He stopped giving attention to the desires and anxieties.

And when the music happened, he says it was completely different than what he always experienced and what he expected. That was the sharing that we got. But he was still performing. Well, yes. Yes. He didn't decide. The attention. No. It's life expressing true. Like magpie. When the magpie is singing, it doesn't decide to sing. It's the movement of life that makes it sing. But it doesn't matter whether he performs the audience or not. He just kept going. He overcame his performance anxiety. Well, life moved him. By becoming one with the music. In human terms, you could say that. But we are not talking about the human terms.

We say that human, the illusion of doership, the illusion of overcoming something, getting something, going somewhere, is to be seen through. This is just a narrative of the mind. So what really happened, life moved him to do what he was trained to do. So because he was a performer and he was a drummer, life moved him to keep drumming. But the narrative has changed. Now he didn't do it to overcome his anxiety. He didn't do it to get attention. He didn't do it to get paid. It was just the doing happening. Life made the doing to happen. Just like Mark Pye singing. No agenda. So was he relevant whether he was doing it for the audience or not?

The narrative become completely disregarded. He just enjoyed being either way. Yes. Just believing, the thinking was disregarded. What did he say, Andy? I think David. So that's fine. We seem to be speaking on an individual level. That's not what I was getting to. I understand all of that. I'm talking about cultures and religious beliefs and groups that get together and pray and create energy. Sure, that's still non-doership. So do we just look at it as all non-doership? Absolutely. It's just a game they're doing. They think it'll do something. It'll create good energy. Whatever they think doesn't matter. It's just what's happening. Yeah, yeah. It's just what's happening.

Like everything else. Absolutely. Isn't prayer just an expression of will? It just comes up. Will? What is will? Yeah, the energy is the same one. Letting your light shine. It's basically just letting your light shine. Let your light shine. Well, it is. Prayer mostly is petitioning for something. I want something. I pray for this prayer. But not recognizing that they're already there. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, but it's all a game like the rest of it. Still, it's just what's happening. You know, the collective stories of being a patriot. You know, I love my country. I'm belonging to that nation. Or I'm belonging to that family.

Or I'm belonging to my gender. Any of those stories are just how life life is. Yeah. Yeah. If you're doing it, do it. If you're not... There's a guy who's an iPhone. Life on. She's a great wife too. There's a gypsy saying that says, Sing for no one. Sing for everyone. And I'll just sing you a chorus. Sing for no one. Sing for everyone. Boom, boom, boom. Sing for we are servants of the song. Sing for being together. Oh, never mind the weather. Sing for no one. Sing for everyone. Sing for no one. Sing for everyone. Oh, wow. Now, was that for the extension or just for the...

Yeah. Don't even go to narrative. Yeah. That was good. And that is that. That's that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't even go to narrative. Yeah. That was good. And that is that. That's that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I need to do that. With attention or with something else. Yeah. Very good. Very good. Yeah. It's interesting, you know, what we do is we set, we give reasons for everything to happen. And the reasons change, and then the reasons change, and then the reasons change. But whatever happens, it's just happening. Exactly. Beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. I used to struggle with that kind of prayer question of David's.

But, yeah, it was because I didn't really want anything, and it just made no sense to want anything either. It was just like life's ticking, you know. But people are saying, you know, pray for this. Sorry? You need a microphone. I've got it. Oh, sorry. Oh, you can't hear me from there. Is it not working? Yeah. Sorry. Sorry, Kat. Yeah, so if you didn't hear what I just, yeah, I struggled with that whole like, pray for stuff, because I didn't really want anything, and it made no sense to sort of want anything different, because life just goes. But people say, oh, pray for this, you know, you're not well now, you know, pray for that, or pray for that person to be better.

And I kind of thought, yeah, maybe it'd be nice for them to be better. It doesn't matter. It's not important. Okay. But now I sort of see it more like, you know, so we'll send that out. I'll just do the, to the, you know, from the universe that has no absolute agenda whatsoever. It's just pure, you know, if it's good for them, chuck them some, you know, beam of healing or whatever, you know. But it's, yeah, there's not a lot of intention or there's no expectation, intention, whatever. And it's just the same as saying, oh, well, if I wait for that bus to stop, maybe it'll stop, maybe it won't.

It's just as relevant as, you know, asking nature to send a beam, you know, into somebody's sick bed or whatever. It may or may not happen. It may have no, you know, less sort of notion of it actually happening or less understanding of that. But it's, it's just, there's no, um, kind of energy of attachment to the fact that life just does its own bloody thing anyway, you know. So who cares? Brilliant. Thanks. Thanks. So, can you hear me? So I'm wondering whether you believe in universal order or randomness or just, is it just an irrelevant question? We generally, we generally don't engage with beliefs much.

So it's irrelevant. So it's irrelevant. We basically stay in a place of no mind, which is, I don't know, I don't care really. It is the, it is the direct experiencing of life. Yeah, so not forget about universal order or randomness. Yes, that's. Forget about those concepts. Yes, we just don't go into any positions, any fixed positions. We don't know. This is like that, I am right, you're wrong, we're gonna go for a war and. Ignorance is bliss, literally. Unknowable. Okay, good. I just wanted to say that many of that stuff is coming from the mind, those questions. And, and most of us are experiencing, and we all experience it anyway, whether you acknowledge or not, is just direct experiencing.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, which is not of the mind, but the mind will make a story about it. Yeah. That's what kind of happens. I just want to say, I've got, and most people know that I've been in Tasmania this last week, moving house down there. And, and just that thing is I deepened so much more into the present moment. You know, there's no thought about, oh yeah, that has to do, that has to do, and I have to organize that. And there was for a day or two, just did what had to be done. But it was just amazing how things just unfold by themselves.

I didn't have to put much energy into anything. And it just occurred. Things showed up. My accommodation fell through and another accommodation came right through, right then, in the most incredible place. And, um, my garage that I had, um, all my stuff stored in was screwed shut. And I didn't have the screw and I didn't have a drill. My drill was in the garage. And so, um, I'm thinking, oh, well, we're going to have to do something about that. And, uh, when I went to this new accommodation, there sitting on the kitchen sink was a brand new door. I mean, it just occurred like that, one thing after another.

And there's no stress around any of it. It's just being in the moment and life presents in a way that you don't have to think about it too much. There's not too much preparation, not too much mental energy around it or physical stress or tension around it. It's just a great experience. It's just less living. Yeah, but listen. Be it order or chaos. Exactly. And it was a bit of both, you know, but this one didn't get involved with that story. We had a similar thing happen. We had to move house and we went in. I went into real stress because I'm always, I have trauma around the house moving and where are we going to live.

And also the, the constant talk of, ah, housing crisis, housing crisis, difficult. You can be homeless. Blah, blah, blah. All these problem, problem, problem. And the weirdest thing happened. I just put on Facebook, we're moving, who knows where spirits going to take us. And then it was the weirdest thing. This girl that I, I knew when she was a kid, they come from a Sikh family and they sing us, you know, and I was at many festivals with them and I used to jam with them. And she was 10 when I met her. Now she's 40. She rings me up. Oh, hey Kavisha, you know, I'm a real estate agent.

I can help you. I went, what? And it was like people just wanted to help us all of a sudden. And we had no furniture. My cousin rings me up. I've got a factory full of furniture. I've got to get rid of it. Just go there and pick what you want. I went, what? You know, so it was this amazing thing. And, and the leader with the bear. Oh yeah. And then I went to a garden, opening of a community garden and my, and we were saying we had to move. She goes, oh, you need furniture. My brother-in-law, he came to Australia for three months.

He doesn't like it. He gave me his furniture. He's gone back to Brazil. Do you want a bed? But it was like every, every, all the angels were lining up to give us all what we needed. And it was, I guess when you're saying it's like moving out of the problem solving mental constructs of how I'm going to do this, da, da, da, da. And there's that let go. And then all of a sudden there's this wave of energy. So moving out of life, you know, that they're saying life's not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be lived. Yeah. That's a beautiful saying, but how do we get there?

Right? How do you get there? You know what I mean? We get out of the way. And it happens. When you get out of the way, when you get out of the way, you, you experience the connectedness of, of, you know, intelligence energy. And that is not what randomness is. Scientific. It's a scientific thing that actually has no meaning really, because even the Episcitis who looked deeply at the nature of what randomness is, they say, randomness only means that we haven't quite got to that level of understanding the natural order of things. So there is a natural order in belief. That's what I experience, not what I believe.

That's a different thing. So you experience the natural order of everything. Of everything. Even the animal is the order? It only happens right now with no preconception or afterthought. It's just a perfect unfolding. There's no grand plan. Correct. No grand plan. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. Finished. I just want to say about the ignorance is bliss. It's not a matter of ignorance. We just accept that we don't know. And that thing that wants to know, it's just to have some sense of control. Like we, okay, if it's this, then it means that I'm, I can do A, B and C and then I'll be okay.

Rather than just accepting, okay, I have no idea. It could be this, it could be that, it could be everything, it could be none of the things. I actually have no way of knowing and that's okay. That's what I meant by it. Yeah. That's why I used it. Yeah. Yeah. Then it's just a state of acceptance of like, I'm not trying to, yeah, exactly. And the only thing that's trying to know is to have some sense of control. But when you just accept it, then it's okay. Whatever happens, if you get a bed or if you don't get a bed, that's okay. Both are just as is.

I love you to a bed. Yes. I'm not. I'm just comfortable with confusion. Yeah. With not knowing to do it. I've just been traveling for a few weeks. And, you know, one of my things is getting hooked up on control, you know, am I going to, I've got to get across town to catch this ferry. I've got to get the bus and will I make it? Oh God, you know, I've got to hurry and all this sort of stuff in the mind. But when I would let go of that and realize it's just in the moment, it doesn't matter about the plan. It unfolds anyway.

The bus turns up on time. If you miss that bus, another one comes along, you know, and it just, it just moved and unfolded perfectly. But in my mind, I was trying to plot it ahead all the time. And it's, it's just an illusion that you've got any control over it, but yet it unfolds the way it needs to unfold. Yeah. Um, yeah, I was half an hour late because the tram broke down and I was, you know, getting all stressed and I thought going faster on the inside is not going to go any faster on the outside. And I thought, what a, what a, you know, really, I thought that was so obvious.

So it's one of those simple but brilliant observations. It's so obvious. But I thought, that's it. Why am I, you know, I'm trying to speed things up on the inside. It's got absolutely no bearing on it. So you better, may as well just slow down on the inside. Thank you. That's a good definition of worry. Oh, projection into the future. Yeah. I have, I have a couple of comments from online community. And there was some gratitude expressed. Awesome, Spill Bob from JB. And then Susan says, prayers in many cultures are expressions of gratitude. And Jane says, that's been happening here. No control, effortless being. Beautiful.

Yes. Laura, so simple, just direct experiencing. That's it. It's beautiful life on life terms. The mind always asking, never satisfied. It is priceless to see through the bullshit. Beautiful. And British Julia, lovely conversations. If I only could invite some media journalists here. And I just wanted to highlight what you so beautifully expressed, you know, like everyone who has this moments of getting out of the way, of the constantly complaining mind, which it is its function. But it is a mechanical function. And just putting it aside and suddenly the perception changes so vastly. Suddenly you see how life flows. How it flows, the energy that life is flows through the least resistance.

And everything resolves itself. And it changes. But not in the way, you know, like Navi was saying, the mind that always wants to control things. Know things to be able to control it. That's suffering. Because life will be unfolding as it should. Bob often quotes desiderata. No, how was it? That no doubt that everything is unfolding as it should. That's a brilliant poem. Yeah. And then, yes, poetry is just like a prayer like everything else. It's just what's happening. And that may happen from the controlling, contrived, complaining mind, identity with the thinking. This is my opinion. I have to defend it. And that may happen.

Or from that space, that home we never left. That relaxed, natural state. In which you have just a presence witnessing that miracle unfolding. As it should. Or even the concept of should is a little bit far out. But it's an expression. No concept is ever right. Yeah, I just wanted to highlight it. Yeah, I know. Can I have the mic? Good point. So, please, everybody online and offline, if I don't have eye contact with you, it's not personal. If I don't speak to you, it's not personal. It is personal for this person, which is me. But this me is shrinking, evaporating. Just bear with me.

I know what I'm doing. I'm doing what I have to do. And I'm doing it intensely. That's why things get worse. And it's been said, things get worse before they get better. Now I'm in a worse level. But inside is okay. I start work somewhere. Congratulations. Thank you. I... It seems I'm the least stressful person in the workplace. That's why everyone shouted at me. Everyone is inappropriate with me whenever they want because they feel safe with me to do so. Amazing. What a transformation. Thank you. But a little bit of residue of the problems in the workplace will remain, which every day dissolve in with my second job.

So the first job is the job that I'm having to get paid and survive. And the second job is meditation. And they both connect to one another and increase one another's quality and quantity. Everything is okay. Me either. Which is a synonym phrase for me too. Do you want to say something else? No? I have to say something else. No? I have to say something else. No? I have to say something else. No? I have to say something else. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. The last sentence, I said I noticed it was an extra movement. That's how I noticed it from people's feedback. So I'm showing you my capabilities.

You know, I'm polite, I'm fine. And just make it worse. I should stop talking. No, it's beautiful. See how naturally the level of joy in life grows. The less you are engaging with the complaining mind, the more natural flow of life happens. That's what they say about psychological suffering. It comes here from identification with the mind. The less of that, the more of life finding its own way and its place. It is my responsibility to resolve the problem with not getting acknowledged by people. The reason that I didn't get acknowledged by you in Tuesday's Zoom meeting was because of my own action, which caused that reaction, which was very, very apathetic.

But I'm not going to say that was unfair, you shouldn't do that to me. It is my perception, it is my experience, and it is my responsibility to transform that perception and experience to more real, broader, beautiful, transparent experiencing. So, take it easy. Sorry you felt that way, by the way, sorry. I usually say thank you, Hayman, and that's twenty other people, or twenty-five other people. Sorry, I didn't mean to make you feel any disregarded. I'm just going to read a couple of comments on them. Laura says, Desiderata, that was about the little quote. And J.B. says, it's humility of being able to tell the imaginary ego to go stuff it, and admit it doesn't know what the truth is.

And this is Wei Wu Wei quote. It is only with total humility, the absolute stillness of mind, that can we indeed know what we truly are. And that's beautifully said, like what Navi was highlighting, you know, the honesty, and even the courage to admit, I don't know, that J.B. says, it's a humility. Yeah, it's a good enough label, absolutely. And it's that, you know, like humble heart, which embraces life with grace, rather than that angry mind, which is always right, and always offended. And Susan, prayers in many cultures are expressions of gratitude. I thought I read it before, but yeah, okay, we got it, yes.

We got it, fine. And I think I saw it too. Yeah, prayers are just another expression of that life. This meeting is much ado about nothing. So when Shah was asking about, wasn't cognising emptiness, it was cognising awareness. We're talking about nothing. We're talking about nothing. But that awareness is the same as asking about prayer. We're talking about nothing. So what is this nothing? Everything comes from it. Everything goes back to it. Everything goes back to it. You can make a gesture. It starts from nothing, goes back to nothing. But if you follow your own hand, you'll find it disappears into nothing. It's the same cognising emptiness, the same intelligence energy.

The source of prayer and what prayer is relating to is the nothing. The nothing that is everything. The nothing that is everything. And that's... I can't help my mind conceptualising the word source. Source is a creator. You're the creator. You're the creator. It is... And then that makes source a thing. A functional entity. Anybody understand anything I'm saying? I don't know. I think they don't do that. And definitely not a nothing. Nothing. It's like... Yeah, so in my hand you say on top of my hand there is nothing. But... When you talk about source as... Create... Source... What's the definition of source? So... Creation. And so if all these things come back into source...

It's created from source. It's created from source that's like you know... We're off the earth and we go back to the earth. It's very... It's a creator. And a creator is a thing. The thing. It's a process. I can answer this one. I can answer this one. I can answer this one. What's the... What's the word? It's a word. It's a word. It is a word. Is the word the thing? It's a word a thing. Well a word is a word. Is the word the thing? Is the word the thing? Is the word the thing? Is the word the thing? So the word we impute onto something.

The word I or me, is that you? Is the word the thing? Is the word the thing? Is the word the thing? Is the word I or me, is that you? The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing.

The word the thing. The word the thing. The word the thing. So the word the thing. and the word the thing. But it's a container. Yeah. Yeah. I've got it back. Okay, go. You can get something. Just something I saw, but I can get it back once a minute. Because for me, like, free will has never ever meant anything, but also, like, intelligence instigator has never ever meant anything. So the idea of a God creating everything just seemed irrelevant. There was just life. Why do you need something to start that life off? Quite apart from the fact you have the problematic, what starts that, what starts that.

I just never needed it. So that's why when Mum tried to get me confirmed in the church, I was like, bugger off, I don't believe in this, you know. And so for me, source is an empty, like a placeholder zero, I guess because that concept of instigation, which I'm sure most people have, doesn't mean, has never meant anything here. So I just don't really have it available in my little package of things because I'm sure I'm sure you're going to use the word source. So it's empty. And also the way Bob is pointing, you know, at ing, I-N-G, the duality of creator and creature comes from that one singular create ing.

I don't know if you can have an ing without a, like an ing is the doing. Yeah, it's happening. And you need, you need, to do, you need a doer. No, no. Does the, when you look at... How can you do without a doer? Yeah, you look at how is reining? That's what I don't get. Pardon? Who is doing the rain? Raining. When is reining? In. That's just language. That's semantics. Exactly. But is anybody doing rain? Is it or no? Well, I guess I'm not... Is anybody beating your heart? Is it doing or not? Does it need a doer for your heart to expand and contract?

Well, there's the object. Doing. There is a doing. Yeah, but we use that language as human beings speaking a language to communicate. And that's how we get confused. That's based on grammar. I pointed out a little while ago, the end of the 10th thing meaning the way is beyond language. Yeah. Sorry, follow me. The way is beyond language. It's prior to the language. You can't understand it with the language. That's the point. You can't understand it with the mind. Because mind is division. It's an instrument which always brings duality to where it is not. The sense of the word source is braving. Yeah. I'm just...

I'm just interested in the word... In the idea of source. You know, like, it's a great one to question. Where do thoughts come from? Like, what's the source of thinking? And where does space come from? What's the source of... What's the source of thinking as an analogy? No, but... No, think of outer space. Think of the universe. Think of space. What's the source if you say there's a source? Or where do your thoughts emanate from? Can you say there is a source? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. You know, when we... Bob gave me something the other day. And I just really want to talk about that because I think this is really, really relevant.

It's like... I think this is a confusion between the description and the described. I mean, there is what we described and the description. And the description, we have to use words for it. And the... And we... Here in this room, over and over again, the words are not the thing. You know, we can argue until the cows come home about the words we use. But, you know, we have to get away from the words and realize that they just... Forget that word, realize. We have to... We have to... We don't have to do anything. See? There's a problem with words. There's a problem with words.

They... The words are totally misleading. And... And what we have to do is look what's behind the words. What's being said, not the description. Look at the moon, not the finger. The described. Exactly. Yeah. So... The pointers, they point to something which is not words. Yes. The pointers point to a direct experience without words, without words. I think that's where art, music, poetry... Yeah. They help us because they go beyond words. You go into an exhibition. You know some communion has happened with a painting or... But you couldn't... I mean, if you were a reviewer, you would try to put that into words. But as a person just looking and gazing, you know something has been communicated.

But it is beyond words. And that's why the poets, the artists, they help us because they show us there's something beyond. It's another way of showing the beyond. Yeah, because it's not presented, you know, with art and music. And it's not presented with the rational mind being, you know, and reason, sort of, which people get attached then to the form. So it's a different... With those mediums, they're more playful. So they kind of break down the sort of attachment to rational mind, you know. And it's like what you were saying before. We spend a long time talking about nothing, you know. Because you can't describe nothing or you can try and put words to it, but there's...

The words fail. It's our obsessions with ideas and concepts that are the problem that we can talk about. So is there any other way we can... Well, what does it say in the Bible? In the beginning it was the Word. What are you without the Word? What does anybody say? No. What does anybody say without the Word? No. What about allowing yourself to be faithful? No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. and see what happens. I realized that that was the mistake that when they said, just recently it's occurred to me that when they said in the beginning there was the word and the word was God and that was the beginning of duality because that's when they had the word God is when they started wanting to define that word and that's what created all that division and all the wars which, you know, are still, which is the state of affairs of the world today, the mess, and that's the problem by defining that word God whereas before you define the word God then you're living the oneness.

Donnie wanted to say something and I have just to do with what you were saying about when you read about art, when you read about art, the other people that say, oh, it just showed up, you know, this inspiration, this thing, this notion popped up and there it was. The other ones that seem to get that, you know, that things pop up and pop up and pop up and that's it. And I had a couple of comments from our online community and we are over time now so Laura says congratulations to Heyman and she says beautiful Heyman, congratulations. And Bradley says, when you ain't got nothing, you ain't got nothing to lose.

Beautiful, thank you. And Laura says, the map is not the territory and Vivek says, words can deceive but not silence. Yes, so that's that. Thank you everyone. Thank you for lively listening. Thank you, Kat. Thanks everyone.