Different descriptions of the same quality-less presence. Sailor Bob and friends. 3 Sept 2023

So, I'm Katarina, Jane, Anita, Peter, Gilbert, Andy, Marty, Chris, Joel, Tingle, Laura, Paula, Hema, Rob, Justine, Tom, Michael, Veda, Ross, Julia, Tess, Lockie, Mitra, Dean, and Bob. Well, morning all. Morning all. Great to see you all. Good to see you. Not going to hear anything new here. I've heard it all before. And, I keep pointing it. So, people, if we're really interested, recognise what's being said. Take it into the heart, and it'll change. And I'm not telling you lies, because if you and here have done that, we'll tell you the same thing. So, we go over the same thing all over and over again. So, to where you might hear something that rings a bell, what we call rings a bell, or what you resonate with.

And, in that resonation, it awakens more and more in you that's been obscured over the years by the conceptual images. So, I can't tell you anything. And, I can't teach you anything. All I do is point toward and ask you to look to where I'm pointing to. Because, when you really look into it, you'll understand that there is nobody who can teach you anything, and nobody who can tell you anything. Why is that? Because, what we point to, and what you'll read in a lot of the ancient texts and scriptures, that there's only the one essence. It's absolute. What they call in the Advaita, Sat, Chit and Ander, Nama, Rupa, the five factors.

Sat is existence, Chit is consciousness. And, Ander is loving to be, or they call it the bliss of being. People get the wrong take on that. They think they've got to be in some high, ecstatic state that they're going to be in all the time. But, it's just the pure resonating and recognizing what I am. And, that's the base of it all. The I am-ness. The presence of this is of course. And, I am not speaking to anybody. I'm not speaking to any mind. I'm speaking to that I am that I am. And, that is the sense of presence. There's one each and every one of us that translates as the thought.

I am. just to this, that's all I'm speaking to, nothing else. Now any idea of a person or a separate entity or an individual, we're not speaking to that at all. Though it seemingly appears, we seem to be the personal in here, but I'll tell you, and some of you already know, that the person is not reality. Person is just a label we put on. Where's that word person come from? It comes from the Latin language persona, the mask. We've got a mask of concepts and ideas about it. Because it's not how it appears to be. Appearance is only seemingly so. Reality is that one essence, which I call, for want of a better term, intelligence energy.

A lot of us call it the self. A lot of us make the mistake there, and believing in the personal self. But the self I talk about is the Atman. The one self, the only self, that fashion, shapes and forms, appearing and expressing as everything. As everything else, including each and everybody that's in this room, or anywhere else, and everything else is out there. It's all appearing in that aware essence. The pure being, the pure knowingness. Existence consciousness bliss. We think we've got to become that. Is there anyone here who's not existing right now? You realise, no, I'm existing. Anyone who's not conscious or unaware, and you know very well, you're not unaware, you are aware.

Anyone who's not happy to be? Well, none of you want to be dead right now. So, if that's the case, what are you seeking? What are you looking for? Why don't you recognise and realise that you are already that? And that's the great mantra. I am that. Innately we know that. Because you say, that's the chair you're sitting in, that's the room you're in, that's the space in a room, that's the tree, that's the flower, that's the cat. Everything is that. Which we've discriminated with the word. We've put words on, labels. And that's discriminated. Instead of being that, it's now become the name and the form.

As I said, Satyat Ananda, Nama Roopa. Nama Roopa is name and form. Now the name and form, they tell you, is Maya. It's illusionary. It's only appearing to be so. But we've taken on the belief that it is so and get lost in the belief. And we suffer accordingly. Because it's only me that can be fearful. It's only me that can be unhappy. It's me that can be depressed or guilty. And you realise that me is the cause of all your fear, your unhappiness, your depression, your anxiety, your angry. And the effects are the anger, the fear, the depression, the guilt. That's all the so-called karma is.

Cause and effect. What if I investigate and see that the cause, me, is a fiction? It's not true. And ask the simple question, can there be an effect if I'm not relating it to a cause? We've done as a Rose scholar to work that one out. If you're not relating to a cause, there can't be an effect. And that's what we need to recognise. That the causes we're putting up are fictitious concepts. And the effects come about. The sensations, again, are concepts. The feelings are all concepts. And the Buddhists will tell you, they call it the great perfection. And they give it in one sentence.

The great perfection is non-conceptual awareness. Awareness without any concepts. The great traditions too. That point out that it's the one essence, patting, shaping and forming, experiencing, expressing. How's that? How's that? So that's the thing that needs to be looked at. Instead of trying to become something that you already are, why not start from the fact that you are? Take that I am that has the sense of presence, the knowing that you are, is the reality. Not the body mind, not the person. How did that idea of a person come about? Well, how many thoughts were you born with? And you realise, you can't remember your birth.

People say that I was born, but they didn't have any words at birth. We had no words at birth. How could you say I was born? And you didn't pick up words or learn words till you were a couple of years old. When your parents fussing around you, saying your little Johnny or your little Jean or your little whatever or whatever your name is, and you learnt these words with the capacity of reasoning and started to develop in that little child, the two, two and a half, and you reasoned, well, this little Johnny they're talking about, they're writing this as what I call I or me, and I've learnt those words also.

I am little Johnny or little Jean or whatever my name might be. And so instead of seeing ourselves as the absolute, as the reality, now we've taken ourselves to be this person, this separate entity, this individual. And as I say, look at it, it's only the me that can be fearful, anxious or depressed. And so all these psychological problems come about because of the belief relating, going into that believed in me, and relating to it as something solid and substantial. And relationship, relativity, look at that, what is that? Relationship is dualism, me and the other. So there again, we've left their true nature, which is one without a second, not two, and gone into the belief that we're separate entities, individuals, persons.

and reinforce it, and our schools reinforce it, if other people, everybody around us is reinforcing it. And we reinforce it ourselves. Until, it's like, some of you come to places like this, you get the taste, there's got to be a bit more to it than this. And so instead of settling down in the old scriptural beliefs and statements that you're a sinner, and you've got to realize God, if you're not one with God, you're going to get into a place called hell, or all the rest of it. And we beat ourselves up with the Word. And when you listen to what Shakespeare told you 400 years ago, and he says, there's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so, have a look at this thing you call mine.

See the way it's functioning. And you realize it's always vibrating in pairs of opposites. It's either past or future, pleasant, painful, happy, sad, loving, hating, positive, innovative, whatever, always in the opposite. But what you don't recognize, or you haven't, or I hope you have, is that those opposites are not separate. We believe there's good and bad and pleasant and faint, and we take them to be opposites and get lost in the Word. But we're talking about non-duality. One without a second. It's not two. Everything is that. And you know that innately because you say, that's the chair, that's the carpet, that's you, that's me, which you put labels on to discriminate.

But it's all that already. The one essence. And there's no division or no separation at all. So if you recognize that, where would that leave you? As I pointed out, the Buddhists call it the great perfection. And the Hindus and others call it the absolute. The Atman self is absolute. What can you add to absolute? Well, if it's absolute, you can't add anything at all to it. If you added anything to it, it wouldn't have been the absolute, would it? Nor can you take anything away from it. So take that on for a moment or two. Say, I am absolute. If you are absolute, who could be superior to you?

You've got this idea that there's higher powers and all this and that. You realize that nothing could be superior to you if it's absolute. And what would you want from anybody else? If I'm absolute, what do I want? What do I need? You realize it would be taken care of by itself. So see all the problems in the recognition and living as that would take away from you. Where would it leave you? Present and aware. What's going on right in this moment? Instead of some conceptual image that I'm fearful or I'm anxious or I'm unhappy and I need to become something. If I do this practice, what will I need?

What will I need? What will I need? What will I need? What will I need? What will I need? What will I need? What will I need? What will I need? What will I need? something, if I do this practice, repeat this mantra, do this meditation, I will become. What is becoming? It's not being. Becoming implies a future time. And when we look at time and investigate time and ask yourself, what's wrong with right now if I don't think about it? And you realize without the thought you can't say it's good, you can't say it's bad, pleasant, painful, anything at all about it. So it's just as it is.

And what is means it's unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected, not divided, not separate, just as it is. And it's free to move on. And it does. It's changing constantly. All this manifestation is what they call transient. It's changing right now. And when you look into it, you realize you haven't got the same body you walked into this room with. There are thousands of cells dying right at this moment and being replaced. What are you doing about that? If you think you're doing it rather than the shadow. You realize you don't need to do anything because it's happening and you look back on your life to what it was six months ago or a year ago or two or three or four or five years ago, you'll see it's changed.

But isn't it the same sense of presence, the same knowingness that was saying, I am then, that's saying it right right now. Because there's a belief there that you are this person for a change of. But the belief, true belief is that you can only, true knowing is that you always were and always have been. The belief is not the actual. Look in your dictionary and look up at the definition of belief. It's an unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason. It means we haven't reasoned it out. We've taken it for granted. So we haven't questioned it. People tell us, you're little Johnny.

I am little Johnny. You go to school and you learn more words and somebody asks you who you are. You are little Johnny or little Billy from there on. And that little Johnny can be fearful or anxious or little Jean or whatever you know. Be unhappy, be depressed, guilty. All the psychological stuff is taken on board because it's related to the conceptual image. And all our problems are problems of relationship, relativity, dualism. That's what relationship is. And they point out and tell us that there's absolutely no duality, none whatsoever, in non-duality. And we were brought up to believe and have taken on the belief that there is such a thing.

And that's what needs to happen. We need to investigate and look at our real nature. And see if it's true or not. Am I this body? Well, are you? Have a look. Don't you say, my body? Don't you say, my house? My car? My coat? No. Are you the car? No. Are you the house? No. Well, by the same token, you may not be the body either. And when you investigate, you'll see it's so. What's this body made up of? You realise it's made up of elements. Air, earth, fire, water, space. Just like the elements around you. Take the air out of your body. See how long it'd last.

Take the body temperature. You'd soon get hypothermia and die. Take the fire. Try and cook with the word fire. Or heat yourself with the word. It's word I or me. You see? It's a conceptual image. Made up of past events, experience and conditioning. Not what is right now. But past events that you're relating it to. The past is dead. It's gone. You cannot live in the past. You never can. You never will. We can recall it. And you can't always recall all of it. When you can't recall it, it's gone for good. But past of it you can recall. And when you're recalling them, what life have they got?

Only what you're giving them right now while you're recalling them. You can't tell me what you thought, what you did a minute ago now unless you recall it. And you can only live the image of recalling it out. The same with the future. You can't live a moment in the future. You'll say that. But you can anticipate and imagine what you're going to do after this meeting's over or what you're going to do tomorrow. It's anticipation and imagination. It's concepts. It's not what is the actuality. So the presence is what is right now. What is right now is you're breathing, aren't you? Heart's beating. Heron and fingernails are growing.

Food's being digested. Thoughts come up. Thoughts change. Or you can fixate on the thought and keep it there. And then you've gone into the concept of time. And you've got the idea of conceptualising from then on. Taking time to rerue. But when you look at it closely, you haven't moved away from this presence awareness. You are not unaware right now. Isn't that a fact? You say, I am aware. But you can't tell me what awareness is. Can't give it any name. But you can't negate it either. You know, if that awareness wasn't there, you couldn't say or do anything. So it's a presence awareness. So when you investigate and see that you are not this body, this body is a pattern that's constantly changing.

Cells are being replaced constantly. It's transient. It's always and ever changing, fresh and anew. But it's expressing through this particular pattern. So the body-mind is the form that's made for that to express through. Just the same as the life will express through the tree, the sap and the life that's running through it. As the animals, the birds. All these patterns, shapes and forms which the life is expressing, the beingness, are made by that life, formed by that life to express through. If you didn't have a body, what could you see? What could you do? Nothing. And if that life essence, that awareness wasn't the same thing.

And Christ could tell you, I am the way. I am the truth. I am the life. People thought he was talking about himself. But he's talking about the way to get to it. The way to it. Go to that sense of presence. This is the Archidact will tell you the same thing. He says, stay with the I am-ness. Not the thought I am, but that I am, that thought that expresses as that word I am, is the sense of presence, isn't it? Have a look and see for yourself. And know for a fact, if that sense of presence, if there was no being there, if there was no life there, could you say I am?

So we go here, say, stay with the I am-ness, and we think we've got to repeat it, and stay it, and remember it. You can repeat it forever. I'm not going to do anything for you, but recognise, if that knowing, that expresses as the thought wasn't there, that being knowing, and loving to be, the life wasn't there, there'd be a course. I couldn't say a word, couldn't do a thing, without the life. So like Christ, you can say, I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life. And there's nobody, as Nisargata says, who lives the life. He says there's only life, but there's nobody who lives the life.

Life is all there is. No body. Not this person, not this body, not this mind. That is the vehicle through which it expresses. And it can't do anything as a vehicle. Like as they say in the Gita, the sword can't cut it. Of course the sword can't cut it. The fire can't burn it. Of course it can't. The water can't drown it. The wind can't dry it. And the body can't know it as the body. It's that life essence in the body that recognises, recognises and is living as it. They call it a cognising emptiness. We think we hear that term, this emptiness, suffused with intelligence, cognising.

We think we are doing the cognising. I am sorry. I meant that. We think we are cognising it. But what they are saying is it's the emptiness itself that has that capacity of cognising or knowing. And he made the statement that emptiness is form. It's emptiness that's forming all these patterns, shapes and things. Emptiness. And the forms are nothing but the emptiness. What's this room full of? Shapes and forms. Patterns, shapes and forms. Don't realise it's all empty. It's only appearing to be something solid to substantial. What do they call it? The changes that appear in the empty world. That goes on. In the Hinsing Ming, I think, yeah.

They appear to be so. Everything appears. But it's never moved away from its absoluteness. And if it didn't pattern, shape and form as its appearance, who would there be to discriminate it or say anything about it at all? So the pattern, shapes and forms are seemingly necessary to express through. Just like your dream. If there wasn't the appearance of you in the dream, dreaming in the dream, could there be a dream? And this architect will tell you that. He says, realise you are dreaming a dream you call the world. And stop looking for ways out. We think we're in this dream. We've got to get out of it.

He says, the dream is not your concern. Don't be concerned about it. See it as what it is. He says, your concern is you love one part of the dream and not the other. And isn't that so? We get taken to the dream, or if it's a nightmare, we don't want it, we want to get rid of it. Or something else. Or we want this dream, we want to change it, alter it. He says, love all of it. Or none of it. It's the dividing of it and the separating of it that is the cause of all our problems. Making it appear to be two when it's only one.

So if you love all of it, let the good be good, let the bad be bad. And realise that it will change, and it does change. Instead of fighting with one thing, trying to push it out, and believing in the other, when all that causes is conflict. And conflict is at war. If you're in conflict with something, you're fighting with it. You're war with it. You're not happy with it. It's anxiety. It's fear. It's depression. If you're loving it, or leaving it as it is, you're certainly not going to be in conflict with it. And all the chatter is going on. See how that settles.

Well, try that for a while. Try living things as they are. Unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. See what resonates there then. When all the strife and argument has dropped. Let go of it. Things are allowed to be as they are. And just like the Earth's rolling around the Sun right now, do you think we're going to stop it? We can't. But there wouldn't be day without night, if it wasn't rolling around the Earth. There would be a lot of other things. So the same if that life wasn't expressing through these patterns you call you and me and I. If that life wasn't animated. If it wasn't breathing.

Breathing, it's beating our hearts. Growing our hair and confronting us. Digesting the food. Replacing cells in your body. You'd be buried in the box, wouldn't you? You'd be the end of you. But you're not. Because you know you are the life. And as they say in the text, life lives on life. And out of life, more life comes. And isn't that a fact? Didn't you come from the life of your father and your mother coming together? The sperm and the ovum. Two particular cells. The sperm was suffused with that intelligence entity or life. It knew what to do. The ovum, the egg was suffused with that intelligence entity.

It attached itself to the wall of the uterus. It knew what to do. And when the sperm swam to the ovum, those two came together. Came together. And the innate intelligence that was in them, doubled that cell. And doubled it again. Formed the little embryo. The little fetus. Which is what you are today. Amazing, isn't it? From prior to that even, what were you? The essence of the food eaten by you. And look at that. You came from your parents. Where did your parents come from? The life of their parents. And where did they come from? The life of their parents. So when they say life lives on life.

And out of life more come. Life comes. It's pointing to the truth. And we lose sight of that when we say I am the person. I am the body. I am the mind. What if I take the stance that I am the life? I am the who I am the people. I am the one. I am the one. I am the one. I am the one. I am the one. I am the one. I am the one. I am the one. I am the one. I am the one. I am the one. I am the one. I am the one. being right here and now and being is not was and not will be it is something that's going on right in this moment you are being not the being or will be being and it's constantly changing constantly transient but it is the life of you it's that very livingness that's expressing through that pattern recognising it and you can shout and dance slowly I am that I am that I don't have to become that or not was that or will be I am in this immediacy in this hereness nowness no other time I don't need any other time because the other time is past is gone future hasn't arrived but this is it this is the beingness the livingness and can anyone in this room negate your beingness right now can anyone say I am not you can't say I am not because you simply realise I must be there to be able if I could say it I must be there to be able to say it and if I am there to be able to say it well I have got this life there that is enabling it to be said a corpse doesn't tell me anything and it can't so it is that life and let's recognise that is what I am the sense of presence the satyitananda the being knowing loving to be I am not the body I am not the mind I am not the individual I am not the person I am not the fear the anxiety the stress the guilt remorse jealousy envy I am not any of those concepts I am utterly and absolutely aware try and negate your beingness your awareness right now and you can't you relate and say well that is so instead of all these years of seeking trying to become something that I already am the recognising as what I call a cognising emptiness cognising that emptiness is form the form is nothing but the emptiness everything is that and that is what I am so that's about it and a lot of you know it and can tell us about it don't keep it to yourself let it out you might express it a different way to what I do where others might hear it and resonate with it but that's the way it's passed on how are you going to know if somebody doesn't tell us if you're looking at it first time got any questions or any doubts don't hesitate to ask them because when the doubts are there and are looked into and investigated you'll recognise the scriptural saying the false cannot stand up to investigation if you've got some false beliefs or erroneous concepts there investigate them have a look and put them to the test and if they're false they'll fall apart like you've seen many things as false now if you go down to the ocean I say give me a bucket of blue water out of the sea you say don't be an idiot because you know the sea's not blue but it appears to be blue the water in the mirage you go into the desert and you see a mirage in the desert have a look at the sand is it wet it can't be wet because of the mirage the snake and the rope they tell you the story of the snake and the rope bloke stands out in his room in a dark wet night instead of a wet piece of rope rolls under his feet he thinks he's trod on the snake somebody comes along with a torch look it's only a piece of wet rope well the fear and the trembling that rose when he thought it was a snake they settle down because the energy of belief can no longer but they take a little bit longer to settle down because it takes a bit longer for the physical to stir up but when you look into these things and investigate them and you'll know do what they say you'll know the truth and the truth will set you free so there it is get into it there's no eye to get out of it we have we have 25 people online with us and we have a lot of good morning messages and we have happy father's day bob message from chandika and we have a question from grant is i am the sense of life the sense of being alive that's how it expresses as the sense of presence so somebody that you are there's a sense of presence there that expresses as the thought yes the thought is not it but that's how it expresses through the word the word's not the real the word's not the thing yes so that thought represents that thought i am represents the aliveness of being that's a sense of presence or and british julia says it's honestly amazing that some of the pointers that you've been listening to for years only drop in thank you bob the gift that keeps on giving yeah it is amazing i mean for for people who are here for the first time or the first couple of times you will see that even the same pointers are being used because there is nothing new under the sun this is just something that is supposed to ring through from even when we were prior to the language but they do actually open up when the mind lowers its guards because initially it is just the commentary going on oh i heard that before oh yeah yeah that i agree with oh no somebody else says it differently so i don't agree that is not listening that is not the listening that we are inviting people here to participate in the listening like bob calls it heart to heart just looking for the resonation looking for that innate sense of knowing that intuiting into that natural state that's the listening which does not require any commentary any agreeing or disagreeing but initially it can't be avoided because the mind was it's just dysregulated tool which have been overused and abused for the lifetime so it will be kicking in but once it hears it more than enough to lower its guard and just kind of ease off that commentary eases off too and as julia says it is a gift that keeps giving keeps on giving and kavisha says good morning dear bob and cats from yamchep west australia the flowers look beautiful and bob looks so healthy love to you all love to be thank you kavisha and british julia says hello to kavisha and everyone from perth and grant says is there a simpler way to connect with i am is there a simpler way to connect with i am nothing nothing simpler than than one yes there is no way to disconnect from it it's always and ever present the certainty of existence the awareness of presence is always here so there is no there is no need to look for it or to connect with it because that's that's what you are they tell me they tell us in what is it the daoist the way that can be talked about is not the way so how can it be anything simpler and the hinsing min says it's the same thing the great way is not difficult for those who have no preferences there it is pointed out everywhere and also the way you often start you are already that you are already that existence or that i am there is there is nothing that stands in the way unless of course there is a thought or image being believed so instead of looking to connect with i am see what stops you from recognizing that you are because it's always present never far away and kavisha says is the listening more a feeling it as you speak so a deeper body listening you could call it this way it's kind of like yeah bob says heart to heart where there is the hearing a resonation with a recognizing yeah yeah it's finding that vibe because this is the this is i think it was who was it marty who reminded us that eight percent of communication is words and the rest is energetic yeah so it is really just tuning into that frequency of certainty of being which everybody actually has nobody can deny that they know that they are and nobody can deny that this is a knowing and not a believing because if you try to disbelieve it you can't if you try to believe that you don't exist it's just it's not really it's not experienceable you are even to try to believe that you're not you have to be first so it is a certainty it's just much much simpler than any pointer than any way of expressing it it's it's undeniable it's just that something might stand in a way and it's usually a distraction it's usually a imagination as bob says nothing can trouble you except your imagination yeah yeah the grabbing the grasping the trying to understand the subtle assumption that it is not I'm not this I'm not here yet I have to become later in the future this is all mind shit this is all just imagination a concept when those concepts are energized with attention of course they they seem real but they are not because the moment the energy is withdrawn is relaxed out of those ideas there's nothing wrong everyone is absolutely certain of existence right now so what's what's obscuring it what is it is there anything unless there is a thought nothing wrong unless you think about it and that's it for the online comments so anyone would like to share something what you heard perhaps from the talk or maybe something that really resonated deeply or something that you understand in your own way and when you just you know say it in your own words and the frequency is right it may help anyone because no one who's not it I just want to add to the thing you know somebody's question about is there a simpler way it can only happen right here right now yeah that's the only place it is that's it so bring self into the you know mind into the present moment right now that's my two two surgeries good that's good yeah and if there's any doubt that what we are is life I think it's it's really helpful to think of a corpse think of one that's been dead for a couple of weeks because sometimes they come back after a minute or so so it's already smelling yeah the one that's really smelling okay yeah think of one of those now if I if let's suppose you know because sometimes you can have open heart surgery and I can put a heart into another body and it often works these days but if I took that heart and put it into the smelly body that has been dead for two weeks will it work no why not maybe something's not animating it there's something that which is obviously missing is that which we are it just seems I don't know I just like that visual metaphor and it appears that it stops right here at the boundaries of this skin but you can see I've got a little bandage on because I've got a cut so then that means there's something oozing out if there's a break in the skin no yeah it doesn't stop there it's the same I don't know I just think that sometimes when we're getting upset like my doggy died a couple of weeks ago and and the same it's nice to like whenever I would catch myself going into a moment of missing or whatever just the same thing that I was in love with is what I am it's what there's only that so it's I'm just grateful I love you I love you too thanks Bo whatever you said that reminds pretty much you know like in a at a philosophical level it sits with me but experientially or other than that you know like it's hard for me to to to internalize so what I want to ask you is I'm of course I'm coming from India and we have you know like I'm I'm in some way exposed to different systems and in technologies if I put it that way now are you are you telling that or are you trying to say that all these systems which is you know like evolved over a period of years whether it is the system of yoga the system of tantra or certain systems of you know like dharana all these are worthless and there is no point in attempting any of these things it is just that you know like we need to to realize or to grasp it right now right here right at the moment any effort is fertile is that what you're trying to say when when you investigate and start looking and see that the effort maker is a fiction then who's to make the effort then but in the meantime until you do that you believe it's only you that believed in you that can turn around and have a look so whatever but what moves you to look in the first place if that life effort wasn't expressing through that it wouldn't happen at all but it's life life will take you where it takes you it's going on all the time but they tell you also in those scriptures that our problem is ignorance we think or I'm dull or stupid but it just means that we turn our back on what is right before our very eyes they're saying they're all saying that you are that that is all there is we're not taking those but first I've got to do this I've got to do that and test it out see yeah you can divide things up in all sorts of ways but this progressive path which you know yoga religion you know in Christianity you'll if you're good you'll go to heaven you know it's all about the future it's all about somebody who has to do something and this this message you could say is not really popular with those who have bought into this progressive path because you know we invest all this energy and time and money into this whatever this progressive thing is you know this path people generally say I'm on a spiritual path but they can't show you a single pebble from that path because it's a metaphorical path there's no such thing as a spiritual path it's a it's just the same and to devote your life to a spiritual path is is a trap because who who is investing in this future time when I will become something that's free like Bob says start from the fact that you are already that and then see what comes up that tries to take you away from it and what seems to take us away from it is thought thought lines of thought lines of thought always lead away into the past or the future you know they can't exist in the immediacy because they actually have no duration they're just a subtle vibration but we buy into these thoughts you know and one example is somebody who says look I'm no good I'll never amount to anything this is a mantra Buddha says with our thoughts we make the world when somebody says I'm no good I'll never amount to anything that's a mantra that forms their experience of life which traps them in this mantra a mantra is quite good if your mind is constantly wandering all over the place if you have a mantra that's been given to you by a guru it's quite useful because while you're doing the mantra you're not engaging in the normal nonsense thought lines and there seems to be more of a possibility to recognise when you're doing a mantra awareness is free it's always free but the recognition of what I am seems to be more prevalent but if I'm caught in my thought lines constantly trying to achieve something in the future like doing something now like meditating or doing yoga or going to church and praying and all this sort of stuff it's all about the future for an entity called me so as Bob says have a look see if you can actually find this me or used to say that idiot up there said there's no me is he right or is wrong is he wrong well you've got to find out for yourself nobody can do it for us and it's as simple as that really turn around have a look can I find this this me you can't find it because it's a fiction and being a slave to that fiction is completely unnecessary all the psychological suffering comes from it all the poor me you know that's all coming out of this belief in being something separate but there is no separation and Bob clearly points out this in his first book it's in the first book and in the other books you know the child it learns this word me and then at some point the child looks out and says that's not me and that's when the vulnerability comes in because everything is not me so you feel vulnerable so then you have to try and build some fortress around this idea of me by accumulating and believing in that me but it's just suffering it's not real never will be real but it's not popular you know you're not going to read about this in the New York Times or on the 7 o'clock news it's not newsworthy and yet this message is so beyond amazing and it's so simple that's all I've got to say just remember Advaita Vedanta was one of the great lineages so of course you know he was that and the yeah that was just kind of what I was thinking along here I've got a favorite mantra who gives a shit yeah yeah no yeah because that was also been my question as well like but from what you guys share I don't know I just want to check my understanding so effort it's not like I actually just sit and watch TV and drink beer and have that intention of being awakened it's going to take me there so I guess from what I understood is like those effort like say meditation for example a little bit of meditation every day or whatever way or yoga might help me to just be like my mind settles so I can see the reality but so I need that because my mind is everywhere like I'm very I've got a very scattered mind so I need that effort to just but not I don't I shouldn't make that effort with intention of that if I just do meditation every day I'm going to wake up one day it's not the right approach right because that's projecting in future so it's never going to happen so it's always just create that availability openness or settling so I can see the reality is that is my understanding correct is that what you're saying you need to look for yourself and see for yourself like nobody's going to tell you as I say you talk about the different scriptures and that but what does it say in Hinduism now art that that is all I am that telling that immediately like the bloke that went to the guru and teach me truth and he says thou art that oh he says I've heard that many times you know that's no good well he says that's all I've got he says there's another teacher down the road go and see him so he went to this other teacher and the other teacher where have you been he says I've been to the fellow up the road and he knew!

he said well what will I do he says all I've got left is picking up the cowshit so he says alright that's your job for 12 years and the fellow diligently picked up the cowshit every day and went on it and at 12 years he says master I've served you faithfully now teach me truth he said there aren't that and this time he heard it takes you where it takes you and sometimes the idea that I have to still my mind to see beyond it still contains the I that has to still the mind that has to see beyond it there is no one who is going to awaken awakening is from the illusion of self and the one that awakens is not really a person it is just the realization that there is a mirage here that there is an illusion but it's a realization realizing there is not a person realizing the object it's just really kind of dispelling the illusion that illusion just kind of dissipates is so those those schools and traditions that form yes the Vedanta traditions the yoga schools the Christianity all those institutions that form if we look from the human perspective oh this is to reinforce the me we are delusional there is no human perspective so the only way to look at those beautiful beautiful gatherings of people who are joined by the devotion or longing for the truth is looking from the perspective of life itself so the life finds the way to create an idea that joins the big group and then creates the nations or creates the feminism or creates Vedanta or creates any other huge movement where mind is utilized and thoughts and ideas and philosophical concepts are utilized for those entities to join now suddenly you have an entity called Australia made of a lot of different minds so this is from life's perspective it is not futile not stupid it is not ridiculous it is not unnecessary none of those applies those concepts are only human judgment the mind judgmental mind those are beautiful magnificent expressions of life itself now if you find yourself among those structures being a part in this monstrous creature well that's where life took you now the mind will come with justifying story I have to meditate for 20,000 hours to become what I am or I have been part of the group or work out my karma or clear up my past lives and blah blah blah blah blah that one is also magnificent expression of life but that is also a source and the expression of suffering of human suffering this is me I have bad karma I was a murderer in thousand lives just the imagination just the chatter while the reality the truth is in this moment right now life took me to this room here sitting next to Bob okay no objections I am life if life took me to Christian church I am also life no objections life took me to the nationalization I'm Australian whatever no objections because life is what I am now if there is an idea that there is a human no no I shouldn't be here I should be somewhere else I shouldn't be saying here I should be saying something else I should feel something else I should feel enlightenment is a bliss or ecstasy and I don't feel the bliss or ecstasy so now this is all mind chatting discarding that destruction and I am one with life without the concept of being separate from life I'm one with wanting to experience I am one with life everything unless there is a concept or idea that there is something wrong everything is just perfect is perfectly resolved in the unborn mind including traditions philosophies groups all of it and then when you have the concept that you have to do something to achieve something in future your mind is scattered then you have to still the mind well you can surrender that concept and say this is life expressing as concept and now you may still find yourself sitting or not drinking beer it doesn't matter it's just life expressing in a perfect way moment to moment and you being life relaxing out of the idea this is better this is worse I should do this or not that you will not be objecting into that natural movement and you may still find yourself sitting in meditation being in zen circles or anywhere but the mind whether it is clean and pure mind or whether it is scattered mind or whether it is bipolar mind is just a minute expression in what you are so whatever the mind is it is just a little cloud on the vastness of the sky and you are the sky so what does it matter what is the mind if you actually relax out you not fuel the scattered mind you are the life holding space for that mind and then you find yourself sitting cool or lying down and walking fine well they say you know there's my body my mind have a look at that are you the body when you say my body are you the mind when you say my mind who is saying it have a look at that when Ramana has used to ask who am I who is this I that claiming I am is it the body or is the mind when you have a look at that and people sit for years looking at that and don't see the simplest field what's who am I it's a question well then who am I is going on if I'm asking who am I who is asking the question well obviously it's me I am the questioner that's asking the questioner well the questioner and the questioner thoughts cancel each other out so you understand what you are without being the questioner or the question you can purely and simply are negate your being try and tell me you're not to say I am the body show me this person I am the mind show me your mind there's no such thing as mind apart from thought and there's one comment here thanks everyone I'm letting you to sink in and Grant says also I am hearing you say start from trusting you are that and find out what is telling you that you aren't yeah well said and Bob says we still live actually in the dream but now we know it's the dream beautiful is that yes and Dharma Kavisha says thank you Kat so beautiful it's good in early days when I was listening to Bob and I read I Am That a few times and I had one foot in one world and which was the past and that that foot in that world you know I used to sit down and meditate and you know there was still an intellectual understanding that I wasn't the story and I found myself sitting down one day when my kids were young you know and they were up and down the hall play fighting and making a lot of noise and I'm sitting down meditating and Bob had already told me I didn't need to do that you know that I mean I could do it if I wanted but I wouldn't be getting anything because I was already that and so I was sitting there anyway and I just had this profound understanding that I just am not the word I am but I just exist there is an existence there is life and I got up and yelled at my kids instead of meditating I thought there was somebody else no okay okay hello Kavisha hear that Kavisha I just like to say about practices and all that sort things I've been engaged in practices for a long time you know as a yoga teacher I still teach qigong and all that sort of thing but the problem can be if you're attached to these things you know if you have this notion there's an entity in any way aspirational to get something from these towards an enlightenment or whatever because it only takes you away from presence and that's the key thing so you can enjoy practices you know still do practices every day as like going for a walk or eating a nice meal and I don't care who turns up nobody turns up or whatever in a class but I love it if somebody does turn up it's nice to share those things so if attachment is all about the fictional entity right so attachment to body attachment to mind but you can enjoy experience of body and you can enjoy a conversation you know which is words and mind but if you're attached to them yeah problem so so if you if you being in the nothingness as as presence awareness loving awareness then it is incredibly simple and beautiful so simple keep that mic because we have questions Kavisha also say hey Andy and everyone and Grant says what is it like to live without aspiration well you can only do it right now only only and as soon as you you go into something aspirational you know I mean I would like to buy a van right but I don't really care you know it's not about I don't want enlightenment who cares you know it's about being here that's the that's the important thing is is is that presence awareness if you like that's the only spiritual practice but it's it's not a practice what Andy says what Andy says pointing out the attachment to things what's the first thing they tell you in the description detach detach if you attach to things you're in trouble say something that's it source of sucking Peter yeah just thinking that if you do have an aspirational point of view about doing yoga or something you go to the end just simply go to the end of that aspiration in every respect you know if you want healing what is the end of healing what's the end of yoga what's the end of all of these paths is the dissolution of a self that thinks that it's not there yet isn't it wouldn't that be true so and that's the dissolution of the mind so why don't we go there now rather than waiting around we are there in fact now yeah well consciousness is all there is full stop consciousness is all there is is there someone who's unconscious anyone unconscious consciousness is all there is full stop full stop and consciousness can only ever be here right now that's the only place that it can be found it's not in the mind it's not in the consciousness well that's right there's no it's timeless that's right so there's anything that is rooted in time is of the mind yeah you can't find the mind I'm reminded of a story of once upon a time where I felt that somebody had done something that was something I disagreed with and I thought was wrong to our friend Bob and a lot of other people were noticing it and getting a little pissed off about it but his response his way of like even what he said about it was just got it just sunk in they didn't do it consciousness is doing everything you know that would include meditation and everything else I do I mean I came to Bob through a method and although there's no method needed to be it is I like it because it's it kind of points out that very fact if you can ask without a thought see I think the problem is belief really because the thoughts will happen but if you're not believing in them well then so what right oh I need to become better I have to meditate so I can be wake up I need to wake up there's a belief you know there's a belief and there's a believer if there's a belief so there's the problem but if you can see that that's that's not believed in anymore if that's not believed then so the thoughts can happen so what who cares but without I like to preface that who cares sometimes without a believed in thought or you know can you find the one who cares wow and also I think was it Matthew did you want to say something oh yeah go for it go ahead I just wanted to talk a little about pointers and understanding pointers are great but then when you keep well I wouldn't say you keep but it's you know the pointer appears time and time again and you try and hold on to the pointer but you can't because the thought just disappears and so when it disappears you know you think you've lost the understanding but really the understanding isn't a thought how could it be a thought if it was a thought it would just be noise 24-7 because the understanding is happening constantly so yeah this understanding thing is a pain in the ass it's like you know oh yes I got it that's right we're all space and Bob is space okay I can see it now and then it's kind of like you relax into it and then oh I've lost it I've lost it okay we're all space Gilbert's space there we go I can see it oh no I've lost it again what was it there was another good pointer actually there was slightly better one that lasts longer so yeah it's a pointer once it's pointed once it's done its job pointing and there's nothing there after that that's that's the answer there's no there's no ongoing answer there so like if you yeah it happens really quickly like it's like if you're doing mantra or yoga I mean the mantra I mean how long are you going to do it for how long are you going to do the yoga for how long are you going to do the mantra for did they tell you how long you need to do it for and what happens when it ends when you stop doing it it's going to be the same thing as if you stop in the first minute versus six years or you know it's going to be the exact same thing so you decide for yourself whether you want to well get a little bit more flexible there's a there's a really ancient story this might mention in heaven there's a little bell that rings when somebody down here finds the truth and God hears this little bell ring and he goes and takes a look down sure enough there's this guy that's found the truth and then God sees the devil step up behind him and tap him on the shoulder the man and the man looks at the devil and the devil says I see you've found the truth let me help you organize it I love it write a book write a book create a sangha create a system create a religion and that devil is life itself too whole meeting next Sunday yeah yeah that devil is life it's life itself but I did actually hilarious Kavisha says Gilbert's the devil story and she says to Andy that was a nice reply Andy and Grant says my mind is blown with all your pointers thank you all and for Bob and Kat your books this talks I can't thank you enough thank you Grant that's beautiful I also wanted to highlight that little conversation with Marty highlighted already but it was really sweet when you can hear Anita saying great certainty like really greatly delivered pointer of it's just here and now you know that's it that's it it's beautiful frequency to it and that's the pointer to resonate with and Gilbert next thing he just swapped it because yes the pointers are ultimately only the you know thorn that you throw away later and then you came up with another one and he swapped it and that is actually a beautiful teamwork because knowing you are Anita expressing your own certainty in being you're not going to get offended by it of course because there is no one there who could get offended and at the same time he said yes you said well that's just in the mind Gilbert says there is no mind yeah mind is a good pointer but it's that there is no mind the contradiction the semi contradiction there is that any pointer has its uses and after it has been used there's no point to hang on to a pointer which Marthi beautifully highlighted and this is I would like to come back to what you were saying about all those philosophies that you are obviously a smart guy you understand it in all intellectually the pointer so on so forth but how do you embrace it and live through it and this is the secret you understand it directly experientially right now and intellectually you don't it seems opposite oh no no I can follow intellect I can follow the logic yeah yeah I get it no intellect can't get it intellect is only the idea that that was something to be got and I got it this is all rubbish but like directly experiencing it directly the mind will tell you yeah yeah I intellectually understand it but directly I don't it's quite the opposite you know from direct experience that you exist and intellectually you are telling yourself that no this is not it there must be something else there is something bigger or better to be understood or to live or to experience no the experience the reality that is to be experienced is that which never changes which goes underneath all experiences pleasant painful happy sad ecstatic and non-ecstatic there is that presence or that awareness which is experienced right here right now beyond the thinking is undeniable when the thinking stops that existence is still there it is completely fully experienced everything else is just a description we all run descriptions everyone describes in words and words are basically just kind of corrupting it like Bob was quoting hints in me the more you talk and think about it the further away you strike from the truth and the truth is direct experience you exist you are existing right now and now the intellect says no no but I only get an intellectual no you just not getting it intellectually because the one thing to get intellectually in the whole blah blah of Vedanta and thousands of years of teachings is only one thing to get intellectually that you can't grasp it with your mind that's it if you fully embrace it you can't grasp it with your mind just relax the mind and oh shit I am but that's it the mind says no no no there must be something more you know the huge Vedanta temples that they build you know there must be something more than just because for the mind for the mind it can't be grasped because it is nothing nothing for the mind it is nothing zero and eternity do not exist in the mind they are concepts that cannot be experienced but without the mind the zero being nothing and at the same time being a source of aliveness and radiance and everything that space of seeing in which the whole world arises that is your experience the mind says no but yes come on go oh great the first thing is I mean I heard you know like you I mean beautiful expressions from all of you but that's not in my experience actually at the moment right now right here when I look into myself whatever you said or you expressed that's not in my experience how do you know that how do you know that because see I think I've used that example with a friend I was talking one on one let's say you have guava and I have guava and you bite your guava and I bite mine all guavas I ever had before were sour so this one appears really sweet but this is the same oh let's say we have one and slice it hard and it appears really sweet because I only had sour guavas and I eat it oh my goodness it's sweet and you said no I disagree with you this is different I only had sweet guavas and this is bitter it's sour it's horrible it's the same fruit but you disagree with me because my description of the experience doesn't you know you create the image of what my description means and you compare that image of my description means with your experience and they don't match so now every one of us describe the experience but you don't know that experience you only know what you imagine it means for you in your body like that sweet guava for me because I had sour you have the same fruit but in your experience that same fruit tastes differently because of your past experiences so we do have the same experience but we have different descriptions so the truth is you can never ever know ever if whoever one is saying here if it is different or it is the same what you are experiencing you think it is different and I remember Mitra you had that question some time ago as well that oh yeah you all describing yes I see you are having and this is beautiful and thank you for your courage and thank you for bringing it up and Mitra as well for really they are vital questions which thousands of people have and not everyone has guts to actually speak them up the saying that okay I hear you know Julia is expressing that oh who cares I can't relate to that there is someone who does care I can't relate to this experience or Anita is saying oh there is only here and now I can't relate to that either but you can't relate it in the mind in the story but in direct experience there is nothing to relate to so the direct experience that we all share is the certainty of existence and this is non duality everyone knows they exist everyone knows I am now what we use the pointers to describe it there will be thousand ways of describing it but we are describing what is prior to senses the same thing that doesn't have any any what pre-sensory doesn't have any temperature so you can't say that oh yeah what I'm saying is warmer and what you're feeling is cooler you can't even say that or it's more confined or expanded or colorful nothing what we are describing that presence the aliveness doesn't have qualities so it can't be different experience your experience of presence is the same as Bob's experience of presence I think you know like I'm at a loss you know like I'm not quite you know like I'm not quite there if I put it very frankly how do you know that can I maybe reward maybe maybe reward because it's exactly my question sorry maybe what we have there which there is an understanding like as you say right now I can yes I feel my existence that's right I exist that's for sure but I have a lot there is a realization of it and there is an understanding of it and they're two different levels I think we are probably in understanding level like yes I feel I exist for sure but I don't have your clarity I don't have your peace I don't have your fear I still have a lot of fear you know you have it if you're not thinking you have it that's right but it's not realized and when it's realized it feels different and the reason I say that because I have experienced that temporarily you know yeah I didn't understand who I am but I have you know grace came and it was all you say you know so that's why something is different with that so what we say is this estate is different with that that just came by grace for a temporary time but what do you relate to when you're relating to something you're saying you're related do you not have that relation when I'm relating right now with existence yeah relationship relativity is dualism who are you relating to who is the me or the entity that's taking it on board who am I relating to I can do this who am I who am I relating to well just who am I ask yourself who am I well there is nothing there and I understand it it's not annoying but I understand there is nothing that's all I can say yeah keep it keep it why bother relating if there's nothing there leave it as it is yeah when I leave it as it is there is silence there is you know but a minute later she's looking for the never ending there is a minute later but how about now how about now minute later doesn't matter because it's not here see when you ask what I'm going to do in five minutes in ten minutes or tomorrow I hear it now I see it now but I don't I'm not going to be embracing it right now because I want to train my mind to constantly go and think about tomorrow and about the next minute so you're basically practicing distraction right now you're embracing it you see there is nothing wrong but fuck it I don't want right now I want some illusory in one minute from now just stay in this moment now rather than trade it for illusory five minutes from now for me that entails practice you know no no no practice is future I'm talking about this moment yeah I know I know but I'm just saying if I want to stay in this state of you don't want to you hear you already here you are here you don't have to do anything to stay here and have a listen to the language you said if I want to stay in it yeah and what you said before was in my experience well what Bob's pointing out is there is no me or my it's experiencing so who the investigation is who is it that names and claims everything who is it when what we're saying is that it's the story it's a story about me that is naming and claiming everything right and that is not who you are that is a narration of what's going on it's like the wonderful pointer that Bob says you know have a look in the mirror can you take that image out you know you can't you're not the image and the image is a story of you can that image or story of you live right here right now can it can can that image of you live right here right now unless you gather up a memory a memory of the past or a projection into the future the mind is a narration of what's going on the mind is a memory of you when I say mind I'm actually I'm actually referring five aspects of mind you know like of course you know the English word might be a bit you know like hard to explain it in that way for me what I mean by that is you know like in you know like in an eastern sense we use it as that means five aspects of mind so mind so what I refer by that is there is a sense of self there is something that is quite you know like not quite you know like on the surface but it is still there what we call as you know chitta or samskara or imprints so when I look at myself what I see is that although on the periphery on the surface I might take myself or whatever I am at the moment I am aware of a certain possibility that there are so many other things you know like present in me so that means even I am sitting here I am present here but it is a lot many things going on at the same time within me and that is what I refer as mind so now the question is you know like with with that am I able to I can have you know like a few moments of you know like sort of a feeling that you know like I'm here but it's just very momentary very very momentary so with that kind of a mind with that kind of a being I call myself I'm completely bound by time and whenever you guys talk about it I can see that you know there are a lot that's why I call it as beautiful expression I feel that I'm bound by time I feel that you know like and that me I'm referring is the me with the mind present who is sitting here what are you what are you without a what time what time is there if you don't think about time well I'm completely immersed in myself what conditioning is there if you don't think about it have a look don't jump into a story of time what time is there if you don't think about it time is a concept there's no time it's a thought mind is time mind is me the true nature of mind is clear yeah I have few more comments what me is there if you don't think about it speaking of time we're going and what is it that's aware of all those different parts of your mind what is it that knows that we have we have run out of time but we will have more tomorrow we have we have zoom meeting tomorrow you can join us on zoom and also I would like to validate look everyone here who is expressing have been in the situation when they were trapped in the illusion of self so what you are saying you know I'm wholeheartedly with you because I remember the futility of trying to be the mind and get out of the mind and see beyond the mind while you trap in it is absolute impossibility and that is why we say trust the direct experience of being and be aware of the distractions because that's the only thing you can do as the non-doer which you are the life which you are be aware as you say the mind is constantly chatting there is constantly thought concepts times thousand other things going on in the mind and you are aware of those things so just bring more of that relaxed awareness and the rest will be done for you that's all that can be done and keep coming back because you see we all know where you are and this is not a comfortable place to be but there is underneath that the essential true nature of pure!

as much as in everyone else and we can remind you that it is there it is have relaxed attention of the destruction and I have just because we out of time tomorrow is a zoom call in the morning and twice a week we have it it it it does help listening to it a few times because the mind actually just let it go deeper and now Kavisha says that resonating with truth is like being wounded by the pointers you get a wound and she says it can't grasp it with the mind thank goodness and Grant says you are seeing hearing feeling and you can't stop it without thinking it is evidence of something that's beautifully said and Bob says Dzogchen talks about one taste and the tasting and describing how it tastes are two different things absolutely and the tasting in the tasting as Bob always says the seeing is seeing not a seeing beautiful thank you Bob in above is tasting is tasting yes that was a misspelling Adrian says yes Kat well said at the end there compassion for the mess and JB says lovely meeting many times thank you thank you thank you but you for you you you you you you you you