This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
I think so. Lucky. Zara. Tess. Javi. Carl. Catherine. Who's that? Sheena. Michael. Josh. Dane. Well, it's the same old thing we talk about. Keep repeating it all the time. There's a scriptural saying, be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind. How would you renew your mind?Keep reminding yourself until it sinks in and the truth is realized and recognized. So I say the same old thing to remind myself for a start. And if it reminds you, well and good. If it doesn't, well, yeah. I can't teach you anything. I can't tell you anything. I understand that from the outset. All we do is point toward and ask you to look to where we're pointing to and see for yourself.
Because no matter what you've heard or no matter what you believe or like to believe, nobody can tell you anything or teach you anything. Because what we talk about, they tell us in the scripture, it's non-duality in the Veda. And Veda means non-duality, one without a second. There is only one God, if you like to use that term, one essence, one intelligence energy, or whatever label you like to put on, that's functioning, patterning, shaping and expressing as all this manifestation.And I tell you that this manifestation is Maya. It's illusion. So you and I and everything else that's appearing in it are illusory patterns. But it's the one essence, the one life that's expressing through all of it.
And we need to look at that and see for ourselves. Because nobody can ever do it for you. We think somebody's going to tell us and we'll rely on it. But all that will happen is you hear it and it resonates. That innate essence that you are feels... Something well about it, you feel well or lighter or something like that. And it grows in you from then on. But because it hasn't been recognised, they call it ignorance. And when they say ignorance, we think we're saying we're dull or stupid, not meaning that at all. It means that we've just ignored it. It's been there all the time, but we've ignored it.
We've been told we are this person, this separate entity, this individual. And we've taken it on board. Somebody asks you who you are, you'll say, I am Bill or I'm Jane, or whatever your name might be. So you've got this personality. The person is not the real. It comes from the ancient language persona, the mask.So we've got this conceptual image of me, Bob, or me, Bill, whatever your name might be, or Jane. And that's not the reality. What you are is the one essence. I express that in Veda by saying it's Sat Chit Ananda, Nama Rupa. Sat is existence, Chit is consciousness, Ananda is loving to be.
And the Nama Rupa, the Nama is the name and the Rupa is the body. And they say, no, my river is my illusion. All appearance is only real. This whole manifestation appears to be real. But they call it a phenomenal manifestation. And the definition of phenomena is that which appears to be. It's only seemingly so. When you look into it and investigate, you'll see it's not so. And they tell you also that the false cannot stand up to investigation. So we need to investigate and see for ourselves. Another way I put it is I'm not speaking to anybody. I'm not speaking to any mind. I'm speaking to that I am that I am.
And that I am is the sense of presence, not the thought or the word. But to say I am, you're expressing that sense of presence, the knowing that you are.as the thought I am, just of this, nothing else. So investigation, am I this body? And each and every one of us knows you're not the body. You say, my body. You say, my house, my car, my coat. Are you the house, car or coat? You're not. So maybe you're not the body either. Am I just mind? You say, my mind. Show me a thing called mind.There's no such thing as mind apart from thought. What's thought?
Sound. What's sound? Word. What's word? A vibration. A movement of energy. The same with the body. What's the body made up of? Elements. Air, earth, fire, water, space. Just like the elements around you. Take the water out of your body, how long would you last? Take the fire, the body temperature, you'd die of a heart attack.What did I say? I said the water, didn't I? The air, stop breathing the air. So when you investigate, you see you can't separate yourself from those elements. You wouldn't be there. And all those elements can be broken down to subatomic particles and to pure energy. So that's all this body is, is a vibrating pattern of energy.
That's all this manifestation is, a vibrating pattern of energy. So Einstein told you that years ago. It needs to be recognised. They call it the cognising. The Buddhists call it the cognising emptiness. We think we're doing the cognising of the emptiness with the knowing. But it's not. The emptiness itself, that life essence is living and breathing your heart, growing hair in your fingernails, right now is causing these thoughts, feelings and emotions to happen. And he made a statement then that emptiness is form. Pointing out that all this manifestation, including you, me, and everybody else, as these forms, are empty. He said emptiness is form, and he said the forms can be nothing other than the emptiness.
But they're thermally vibrating, just like a reflection or an image in the mirror or something that appears to be real. When you look into it, it's got no substance whatsoever.It's no thing. And what's it all appearing in? What are we in here right now? Aren't we in space? This room is full of space. Space is the, seeming the walls around it, the space you can see through. Now does space have any centre to it? Can you find a spot where space begins? Does it have a starting point? You can't find any beginning to it. Does it have an ending? Is there any boundaries to space?
Can you fly to the end of space? You can't, it keeps going on forever. But can you postulate or think of anything at all that could be outside of space? What would it be in? When you have a look at it, you realise anything could be in. Any other Earth, the universe, or whatever you like to call it, they would be in space also.There's nothing that can be outside of space. Everything is the content of space. Space is no thing. Try and grab it. Do something with it. No boundaries to it, no anything. You can't even feel it. It's not space you're feeling. It's the air and stuff that's in the space, appearing in the space.
Space is no thing. If space is no thing, can something come from nothing?It can't. So you and I, the trees, the flowers, the stars, the planets, are things. But the things itself are no thing. There's still the space. That space, they can call it God if you like. I don't use the term God here because it can get you confused with that term. All the different traditions have got different labels for God, so you can get confused with it.I call it intelligence energy. Intelligence is knowing. Anybody who is not knowing right now, and you're sitting there and you say, no, I know. The knowing is there.
Not knowing this or knowing that, but pure knowing, pure being. Knowing, the I-N-G on it, is giving it the activity. Any activity is a movement of energy. So it's what I call intelligence energy, the activity of knowing. In the Bible it tells you in the beginning was the word. The Word was with God, the Word was God. That's all God is, the Word. All things were made by Him, by the Word. And there was nothing made that was made without the Word. Isn't that so? You've got words for all this manifestation. That's the chair, that's the carpet, that's the space, that's the tree, that's the...
All words. Now, is the word real? Try and drink the word water. Swim in it. Drown in it if you can. Wash in it. You can't. The word fire, can it burn your mouth if you speak it? Can you cook with it or heat yourself with it? You can't. So what's this word I or me? Is it this body? Is it this mind? We think it is.Or is it the very life of you? If that life, what we call life, wasn't in that pattern you call the body, how many words can you say? Call it existence, consciousness, bliss. Anyone who's not existing right now, You know, I'm existing, of course I am.
Anyone who's not conscious, yes, I'm conscious, I'm not unaware. So if you're not unaware, you must be aware. You can't tell me what that awareness is. But have a look. If that awareness was there, could you say anything at all wasn't there to talk about it or do anything without it? That awareness was there first. And then the words which we picked up along the way have come upon it, the concepts.Anyone not happy to be, you don't want to be dead right now, so of course you're happy to be. That's the satsangana, being, knowing, and loving to be. And take that word being. It's not becoming, or not what will be, it's being.
Becoming implies a future time. And when you look into time, you'll see time is a mental concept also. Is there a past if you don't think about it? You realise, without a thought, I can't say there's a past or future. But we believe there is a past. We say, I was in the past. Well, try and live yesterday. Try and live a moment ago even. You can't go back and live it. You can recall it. And you can't recall it all because a lot of it's... You can't recall everything that happened when you were a little child. A lot of it's forgotten. But there are some parts of it that will stay there in the memory.
So there's no past unless you think about it. What's the future? What are you going to do when you leave here? You don't know, but you'll anticipate and imagine. So the past is dead, it's gone. The future is anticipation and imagining. Imagining. As the Thakurata tells you, nothing can trouble you except your own imagination. Now look into that.all the troubles we've got and all the problems we have, if I wasn't imagining this and that about them and conceptualising it, where could they lodge? What could they be? The fears, the anxiety, the stresses, the guilt, all the psychological comes around because we imagine this. Break that word imagine down to image in.
And that's all we're doing. We're creating mental or conceptual images. And the energy of belief is going into them, and they're seemingly real.And that's quite easy to understand because when we learnt words and our parents told you you were Little Billy or you were Little Joan and you took on the idea I'm Little Joan or Little Billy, from then on somebody asks you, you say I'm Little Joan or Little Billy, I am this, I am that, you've got that label. Instead of saying that what they're talking about and pointing to, it's the one essence that's patterning, shaping, forming, experiencing, expressing, has everything. The one intelligence energy, the one life.
Christ told you that and he said, I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life. People thought he was talking about himself. He wasn't talking about himself because his self, the personal self, is a fiction. There's only one self, the Atman, the primary self, the godly self, if you like to put it.So when he's talking about, he wasn't talking about, he was talking about that sense of presence and the very knowing that you are, that knowing is expressing as the thought, I am. And that's the way to go. As Nisargadatta tells you, stay with the I am-ness. And we hear that, we take that the wrong way too.
We think we've got to use it as a mantra and keep repeating, I am, I am, I am. Well, you can do that for the rest of your life. Not going to do you much good. But the I am as a sense of presence. Are you aware of being present right now? And you can't negate it, can you?But we don't rest in it. We take on the concepts and ideas and think we have to become something. If we do this practice or look at this and do this, we will become. But what is becoming? Becoming implies a future time. It's not what is right now.
And have a look at the time. Time is past and future. It's not this spontaneous moment right now. And that's all this moment is, is spontaneous. It's got no time, no spaces, spontaneous emanation. Comes up and disappears almost straight away. And it's fixated on, we keep it there as memory. But it is absolute. The one essence is absolute. Or in Buddhism they call it the great perfection. Now the great perfection, what can you add to the perfect? Nothing. What can you take away? Nothing. It wouldn't be perfect if you took anything away from it. The same with the absolute. You can't add anything to it.
You can't take anything away from it. It wouldn't be absolute. If you recognise that, I am absolute. Nothing can be added, nothing can be taken away. Who can ever be superior to you? Who could ever be inferior to you? You've got this idea he's better than I am, or I'm not as good as this or that.And what would you want of the other persons? I want what he or she's got or I don't want that. We're all, all this functioning that goes on in the world, wanting this and doing that and fighting with one another. Why would that have to happen? If you realize that the earth is yours and everything that's in it is yours already, and you are that very same essence that's patterning, shaping and forming.And we've got this belief that we are this person that has to become realised or enlightened.
And becoming, as I said, implies a future time. So being can never be becoming. Being, the I-N-G on it, is something that's happening right now. You're not was-ing or will-be, you are being right now. Take the label off it, human. Take the label Supreme, we call God the Supreme Being, you call yourself a human. Take those two labels off it. Try and negate your beingness if you can. You're sitting there right now, you can't say, I am not.You know for certain that you are. But we don't take it for granted. We take it because we've got this conceptual image and everybody around us is reinforcing it.
We settle back into it. We've locked into it for many years. But some recognition or recognising stirs in you. When you hear this and you resonate with it, that resonation is a recognising. I'm a little bit more than what I think I am. And it sits well in you. And there's a sense of well-being in it. A warmth and a compassion and the joyousness of being. And it grows on you until it's stabilised in you. And that's what needs to happen. And it does by itself. Once you get the taste of it. We don't need to do this or do that, but you continue to recognise it.
Have a look at it. Is this how it is? And you see if it's a word or a concept or an idea, and you're not the word or the concept. And they say, let it relax. Let it relax in its uncontrived singularity. It's a singularity which you're contriving all sorts of concepts, ideas and images. Relax into it. I am that essence.That is that essence. That's the great mantra. I am that. And we all know it. Already know it because that's the chair you're sitting in. That's the room you're in. That's the space in the room. That's the tree. That's the flower. That's the bird. That's the stars.
That's the planets. Everything is that which we put labels on and discriminate it and taken the word to be the real, put in the names and forms. As I say, name and form is my or it's illusory.But it's non-dual, one without a second. You are the absolute. Don't forget it. Realize it. But you can't go around telling everybody the absolute, or they'll lock you up. But know it yourself. Be absolutely certain of it yourself. And see how it expresses then. See how it changes you. And a lot of you know it already because you've been coming along. Something's made you look a bit further and you look into it and you can't help but see it.
Sometimes it might take a while because we're locked into the conceptual images and have been for years and it's easy to fall back into it. And 99% of the population are coming from that point. And they start talking, they can easily suck you back into it. But stabilise it, settle in it. And nobody can never knock you off your perch then. Instead of them sucking you back in, they'll get curious and see what, I want what he's got. Or she's got. And you'll have another look and hear it and resonate with it and it'll start. And let it happen from there on. Be open to it.
As we say, we shut ourselves off from the sunlight of the spirit and all these problems return again. But be open to that light, the light of life.I am the way, I am the truth, I am the light. Christ says, I am the light of the world. And don't hide your light under a bush. What is light? Light is the very life of you. How does that light form in your body? Well, You're attached to the cord, umbilical cord of your mother. And that's where the light of life comes in it. So why would they call it the solar plexus?They call it where it comes in the solar plexus.
Why would they call it that? What's the solar? The sun. Light. That's where the light comes into your body. And that's where light needs an appetite to shine out of. It's closed in darkness. What's the shine out of it? Your eyes. And here the song, the love light in your eyes, the light of life. It shines and expresses through you as that light. Be the light, be the light, be the love, the joy. It's going to be the miserable, poor human entity that's unhappy, fearful and anxious. And doesn't want the, the, that. It doesn't have to be that way. I was that way for years.And it didn't happen overnight.
The seeing through was instantaneous, but for all the rubbish to clear away, had to let it settle. And letting it settle and recognising it, you can't help but say, this is not what I am. And a detachment from all this story, we've got the story going on which we attach to. And attaching to the story, the story continues and brings up more and more concepts and ideas and keeps going on and on. In our memory, how big a story have we got? I did this and did that and poor me and blah, blah, blah. Detach. Let it be.unfixated awareness. Be utterly awake with the five senses wide open.
You're hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling, feeling. They're the five senses. Be open to them. And if you're open to them, you're not shutting yourself off from them. You're with life itself. But if you're fixating on the good, the bad, the pleasant, the painful, whatever it is, fixating on one, you're shutting yourself off from the others. But if you open, you can fit from one to the other and you're not bothered. But if you enclose yourself in one of these concepts, or I'm not good enough, or I'm fearful, or I'm anxious, see what it does to you. It erodes that sense of peace, goodwill and love and warmth, the communication.
It goes away and becomes miserable, unhappy, sad, fearful, anxious. It doesn't have to be that way. Recognise that you are that. What we've done is we've taken on all these beliefs. You believe you are this person because they're peristals. We believe we are this and by that we learn a lot of it at school. Take on the beliefs to be real. But have a look at the word belief. Look up in your dictionary. The definition of belief is an unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason. It means we haven't reasoned it out, we haven't looked at it, we've just taken it for granted.
Oh yes, I'm this human being, I'm so and so. Just take it for granted and we function from there, whatever we believe in. Acceptance, it goes on to say, an unquestioned belief of something in the absence of reason. Acceptance of an alleged fact. The fact that we are this has been alleged by somebody. Acceptance of an alleged fact without positive knowledge or proof. And if it's a belief and you look into it, it'll fall apart. Because they tell you that too, also, the false cannot stand up to investigate.and know the truth, and the truth will set you free. The clues are already there, all need to be looked at.
Been there all the time. And they were never recognised here. They weren't even looked at or bothered to be looked at. So circumstances turned it around. Took me where I needed to go. And there was a saying of it. And it's still growing here. It's still growing. Getting better and better as I go along. And the body's falling apart and aging. It's not going to last forever. But it doesn't matter.And know that when you say something doesn't matter, What does that mean? It hasn't solidified. It hasn't become solid. If it's not matter, you can let it go quite easily. It's still spirit. So you see spirit and matter.
Two ends of the one stick. They're not separate. Spirit is the essence of something. Like you've got a good scent or something like that. A bottle of perfume. And the essence of it is the smell, the wonderful perfume of it. But it comes out and comes the water or the thing and solidifies, becomes matter. So there it is, you know that, you know, if something doesn't matter, somebody says something that you're not even, you're not taking it on board, not concerned with, you haven't let it matter, does it worry you? No, you let it go. Or the other thing is, somebody will do something, can I do this?
And you'll say, I don't mind.If you're not concerned with it or attached to it, no, you don't mind. And if you're not minding and it doesn't matter, is it a problem? When we take it on board, it becomes a hell of a problem. There'll be anger, the fear, the arguments, and the fights, and everything. Not a bit of peace in life, not a bit of joy and a bit of love, a bit of warmth. Have a look at these things. Investigate them. Know the truth. And as I say, the false cannot stand up to investigation.And the little bit that does hang around, Keep remembering and reminding yourself, and even that'll go away, I'm sure.
Though it hasn't already gone, a lot of it here, but it gets better as we go along. That's what we talk about. That's what we point to. And a lot of you know it already, been coming here a while, and you've investigated, you've had a taste of it. And you can talk about it just as well as I can. Nobody better or worse than what you are. And so that's why we open it up and let everybody have a say and express what they know and what they understand. And in doing that, It might be said in a different way to what is said here, and somebody might, it's not resonating with this, might resonate what's being said and take it on board and will bring them into it also.
And then it can be passed on again to others. And that's the way it's always happened. But way back a thousand years ago, there was only a few that knew about it, that could understand it. And then they corrupted it, believing that God was something and added all sorts of concepts to it. Tell you in the Tao, a thousand years ago, The Tao that can be spoken about is not the Tao.It's not it. You can't put words or concepts on it. The great way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised. Make the smallest distinction, however, and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
And what's heaven? So-called sky, space is the heavens. What's the earth? Isn't it rolling around in space? Are they apart? Can they ever be apart? Of course they can't. But the same with these sorts of concepts. When we separate them and make them part, we cause duality, relationship, relativity, problems. That's what we point to, and the way you go.Okay, so hi everyone and hi everyone online with us. We have quite a few nice greeting comments and there is a comment from Bill. Some have expressed that non-duality is a fashionable spiritual fad, but non-duality is simply the fact. And Gilbert says, wholeness is singular. Consciousness is singular.
Not two. The simple...Consciousness is singular, not two. So simple, so obvious. Who overlooks the simplicity? That's a really good question. Good way to put it. Who is the one who doesn't see it? And Michael, anticipatory anxiety creates outcome you are concerned about. And Bill, that is really beautiful what you expressed at the end about sharing and spreading this living presence of understanding. And Amanas, am I fucked in deep sleep?Yes, so Bob was just inviting everyone to express the way you actually digested it, the way it resonates with you. That will help you and everyone else, and that will be just a delight of expression. So we have 40 people, 44 people with us online.
Wow. So please contribute. The online community and the people who are here, just, yes, the mic goes to you. Anyone would like to start?I'd just like to say firstly thank you Bob, that was very beautifully put. I really admire the way you remember everything, all those quotes, and you say them with such energy that they really resonate. Thank you so much. And just one other thing is, I feel is... The interesting thing is everything that you speak about is just what is actually always the case. But it's just all the concepts that we learn along the way that makes it anything other. And that to me was a very eye-opening experience.
Seeing that actually just everything you're saying is what's actually already going on. So everything is actually already done and dusted, so to speak, but it's just a matter of seeing the false, as we continually say here, which eats away that sense of what is not true. But the fact that it always has been and is and will be, and time is a concept of course, is always the case. Yeah, thank you both.Yeah, as you were saying that, it was just so evident that the only, it's almost like the only thing you ever have to do is, right in this moment, is just let go. And it's so funny because there's such a deep pattern of...
Projecting and planning and you know once once I do these things then then you know I'll be there or whatever and there's just this beautiful kind of realization here that it's just right the only thing you ever have to do is this moment remember that that's that's it there's nothing else like what is is and yeah it's just uh really beautifulBob and Kat, can you speak a little bit on what you feel the role of the mind and trauma is in the awakening as the person awakens or comes into self? You don't want to start it? Yeah, so it is a trick question because a person doesn't awake to start with, of course.
But I know, it's just a problem of the language. So yeah, the conditioning, the trauma, just like you see, it has its place. Like you see the trauma in animals. It has its place. And it does not prevent, it does not accelerate, because animal is always in a natural state. So if the animal, let's say the wolf is trapped, or the dog is maltreated, or the cat is abused, they do the...develop, the brain does develop a response which in a moment seems to be aligned with the survival. And in the long term, of course, it isn't really that helpful anymore. Like when you think of a human trauma, you think of, let's say, war veterans or victims of the abuse, who develop certain strategies of surviving in a moment, and those strategies are carried along the way when they are not necessary and they somehow create more suffering.
So with the animal's trauma is a fact as well as with humans, that the animal that will be, let's say, conditioned to respond in a particular way to particular behavior of people, it will still continue with that responses. But over time it resolves and it doesn't create the sense of resistance or the sense of wrongness in it. And the natural state is all pervasive, whether the trauma is there or the trauma is not there. With humans, of course, we relieve our traumas. We have another set of software which is the narrative. And sometimes relieving the trauma may help resolving it. Sometimes relieving the trauma reinforces it.
There is no one, I would say, one size fits all approach. Bob usually answers in a situation.go back to that silence, to that place where you are and see what spontaneously comes up. Because there is a place for everything in the appearance. There is a place for therapy, for acupuncture, for meditation, for anything that spontaneously arises. Only the narrative which will keep reinforced certain stories and it will keep the trauma in place and even the story that the trauma prevents me from the awakening, of course. Everything prevents the me from awakening. Me never awakens. So any story that is really there is... Yeah, it's not really a trick question.
It's a question of every individual case being completely individual case. Because again, it even boils down to the defining trauma. Because if you would ask Bob about his first 30 years of his life, I can't tell you how much trauma has happened there. Not to mention he almost lost all of his teeth in fights, in humiliation. He's been fired, he's been abused, tons of it. And I don't know if you could point one person in the world who does not have one or the other traumatic response. Even through the way the brain develops when it startsconceptualizing space and time and the mother disappear or caregiver disappear from the from the perception that could be translated by the computer by the machine as a trauma and it may cause the responses so on some level everyone has one or the other of those responses we may label them trauma and blame them and be victimized or we may actually see them for what they are as sometimes again Bob says what conditioning is there if you don't think about it is there a trauma if you don't label it so What is it if it doesn't have that staining heavy label on it?
It's just a conditioned response. And that conditioned response, if it's attended in a way that nature resolves everything, with the non-judgmental, clean space like awareness or attention that doesn't try to fix it or resist it or modify it or correct it, that pattern also is in the process of resolving, of resolution. Unless, of course, it's still necessary for survival, then it persists. Do you have your own experience or your own contemplation or thoughts on that? No, it's just, I think, when we're coming down in the car today, we're talking about family concepts.You know, the kind of trauma that is inherited down family lines and things like that, you know.
And it's just something about patterning in behavior. So whether you identify it as a trauma, you know, particularly in family lineage trauma, as a trauma specifically, but there are some behaviors. Or conditioned behaviors which may not be yours or may come from somewhere else, you know. Yours in that the person hasn't directly suffered a trauma, you know, but it's an inherited trauma. But it is, to me, I contemplate, I've been contemplating it because of the Of course, in the present moment and spaciousness, there is nothing that attaches to anything. But still, you know, at different stages for this one here, that, you know, there's contractions, there's still reactive behavior and things like that.
So I just try to understand it in that sort of... You know, that kind of picture. Yeah, and just interested to see what your ideas and thoughts were on that. Yeah, well, thought, feeling and emotion, that's the way it functions. Thought will come up first, then the feeling will bring a sensation, and we label that sensation, fear, anger, depression, whatever it might be. And the words we've got on the label makes it worse.and a lot of things are, you know. It's recognised as just a sensation that we were labelled and we fixate on it and stay with it. Instead of detaching from it and leaving it, change, which it'll constantly do, we keep it there and reinforce it mainly.
Yeah, I do sort of see them like pools, you know, in a clear river. They're like eddies or something. There's a contraction. Yeah, yeah. I do sort of feel and understand it like that. But, yeah, I was just wondering in terms of it's deepening into presence. That those things clear themselves eventually or what the experience is, without actually having to deal directly with identifying that there's drama and that there's a story associated with it. Because there's a lot of stuff that does come up subliminally. Without really any memory or anything, but it's just a feeling or a sensation comes up. And so that is, you know, I've been contemplating the place of that within a deepening in presence, you know.
Because, you know, that still comes, comes and goes. Certainly a lot less than when I was a younger woman, that's for sure. Certainly a lot less, but I was just wondering what your perspective on that was.All trauma and their resolution occurs in the fundamental space of being, doesn't it? So that in itself, it shows us that everything is already resolved, really. And, yeah, also thinking about dogs. And so if you lock your dog in the boot of a car for two hours, it'll still be happy to see you when you let it out. Tony? Tony. Yeah, I always sort of found there was a curiosity here to see what would it be like if the river was flowing.
And that was before I even knew there was something I saw as the truth. I was just sitting in my life like waiting to see if there was such a thing as a meaning to life. And then eventually found out in duality, oh, this makes a lot of sense. I have to go to another country and understand that. I've just found, because I'm just constantly flicking back into the bubble of reactions and not being present all the time. So even though when I'm knocked out of it, out of the being present, I'm like not very angry or anything. I'm quite chilled, chillaxed. I'm quite, I guess.
In terms of personality development further along in that respect.more open-minded, less self-protective. But I'm constantly triggered. So lately I just found it was more, I don't know, there's more of an interest in sitting at the coalface of all these things and exposing them. So, and then seeing the kind of things that show up, and there's just a process of exposure, and I see some other people do similar stuff, and it's really just, when you sit there, you know, you might be observing sensations in the body, you might be observing emotions, you might be observing voices that come up, and then those phrases, there might be with them a...
A series of all the times those same types of people said those things to you through your lifetime. There might be like, you know, it's the imagery of being in a toga being knifed and you know, just the images of like, but you don't really label it as anything in particular. You just see these scenarios going and then people have like given me notions to follow like okay so if there are aspects of here this package that doesn't want to let go of some of those things you know let's ask all them you know what's going on what are they feeling and then just things arise like oh give affection to that or um Just a bunch of different things that are probably scattered throughout all literature on this.
Just come up to expose everything really. And then...I tend to need to write it as I go because I think there is a deep pattern in here of needing to constantly explain, tell everyone my observations in case there's a silver bullet that saves their life one day. Also another giant thing to sit with and have disappear would be nice. So, yeah, this... And then quite often things in my life become easier. There's a lot less reaction going on due to this process. And when I came here after a couple of years of COVID, I could sit here and all the thoughts would go instead of just a few of the ones.
Or I used to come here to go, oh, I'm supposed to be letting go. Oh, I'm here to let go. Oh, I'm here to let go. Then it was just like... Hour and a half of not really any thought happening, you know, just sensations being more evident, various things. Yeah, and it just seems like here there is an interest in seeing what that flowing river is like. Yeah, I think I'm clarifying a bit more in my mind what I was trying to say before as well. Thank you for that. That was really useful and interesting. And the thing with... Coming home to self, it's a process that never finishes.
It keeps deepening. That's my understanding. That's my experience. There's no end point to it. And in that process,Things come up. To be shown on the surface of consciousness. Things are... So consciousness is not separate to the body and the emotions either. It is that as well. So that as the... As the presence deepens and becomes more still, more things float to the surface somehow. I don't know, is that your experience? Has that been your experience? It's been my experience, but I'm just wondering if it's been your experience as well. It's a process and it deepens. Have a look in nature. You know, it can be a calm day, it can be a windy day, it can be a terrible storm, and all the rest of it is very destructive.
All sorts of things. Nature enabling it is this. I've got a traumatic experience today and I'm going to suffer. It settles down. It takes all the different patterns we can get in nature. The same thing in our mind, but we put the label on it and exaggerate a lot of it with the label.Was there a period of time when they had to come up to be seen or expressed and then let go of? Anything from the... Yeah, well, it all comes up. Yeah. And a lot of it is not experience. We just take it as it is and sink into it and make it worse.
But when you, as you are now, you investigate these things and probably see the difference. As the whole thing deepens, it becomes less and less important, less and less meaningful. As Bob says, you know, when you don't mind, it doesn't matter. Because initially, from the human perspective, human consciousness perspective, all those things are so deep and profound, you know, the family field, the trauma, all those, they are so attractive. Those stories are so seductive, they're beautiful. And then there is so much heart involved in healing, in resolving. That is very, very human tinted consciousness. And as it really, as it deepens, and it doesn't deepen because awareness is already there, but as that human overlay thins up, as it's more and more kind of the whole rewiring happens, the importance is less and less on that human story field.
Those things, they...keep coming up but they are you know like initially you look at every cloud oh my god this is so much meaning in it and it's so much story and there is you know and all unpacking stuff comes with it and then later on the cloud pass and you don't even call it cloud anymore because it doesn't really have any it doesn't even get much attention anymore so initially it feels that things come up to be seen for the last time before they let go but even that is a story because they may be seen again or might not be seen again but they will be less charged It's a charge.
Yes, yes. Initially enjoy it every moment, every beat of it, that it is so beautiful and so attractive and so human. Enjoy it because the time may come when it will be just... Just part of the content and the being that shines through, it will be just so much more radiant that the content will not be, it will almost be translucent. You see through it and it doesn't take attention. But that takes rewiring because we are conditioned to always give attention to objects. We are conditioned to look through, not from the heart, but through the mind that is interpreting things. So that really, as it eases off,more of the relaxing from that interpreter to the heart where everything is equally welcoming, that field of being.
Yeah, that kind of attraction stays there and is to be appreciated because it is beautiful. I think the crack is the most spiritual thing you've said. I'll just say I really loved your spiel today, Bob. I found it really heartwarming and very loving. There was a lot of talk about love and the light and spirit. I remember sitting here once asking you, Bob, what is this chair? What really, really is this? And then he described it as matter, which is really spirit. And it's like, wow, you know, if you see that, like, then everything is made of this, everything is this light, energy, and vibrating.
But so are the thoughts about it or about the me. Made of the same stuff.And then you can only conclude that it is one essence. Nothing appearing as everything. That's really a vibrating pattern. I don't know, I just felt you're, you know, coming here so long and listening to this feel, sometimes it's very dynamic, sometimes it's almost, you know, really, sometimes it's soft, sometimes it's this, like it doesn't, it's always magnificent, like it's just... And you could interpret it from a psychological level, from an intellectual level, from a heart space, from a different level altogether, unfathomable sort of energetic or whatever. So what? Like, it's all the same stuff.
And that's what you just interpreted. It's the same thing. It's recognizing itself. Yes, yes. It's the same thing. Yeah, and it's just beautiful and just happy to be here with you and some of the people in the room. But not all of them. Not all of them. No, I'm only joking. I'm only joking. Wonderful to have you here. It wouldn't be the same. And then we have a couple of comments from people who are online with us. Bradley says, trauma is a story from the past made real in the moment. Is the story attached to the person or the person?person attached to the story when the nature of thought is seen trauma or fond memories above that whatever you give attention to is made real by the thought called me beautiful And Amana says, I is the first label hidden in all labels.
Any label or silence, both are phantom creations in mind. That is movement of thought. And Bradley says, subliminal body experiences are not possible without thought they are just so closely laminated together that the body feeling gets the attentionAmanath says, me fighting with me as others in the phantom drama of I. Thinker is the presence projected as absence, but confused as absence as presence. And Bradley says, things are continuously arising, none more special than the other. Only the me attaches to it. Trees don't shed bark. Bark naturally falls away as the tree grows at the heart. Beautiful. That is beautiful. Amanath, there is nothing like spiritual and non-spiritual.
Both are labels only.Yes, so that's that for the online contribution. Thank you. I was just thinking, you know, it's that thing, that process of deepening into presence, into self. And, you know, Ramana disappeared for 20 years, you know. He was disappeared out of the body. No identifying with the body, or very little. But he came back. He came back, he cooked in the kitchen, he yelled at people, he organized the buildings of the ashram, blah, blah, blah, as a person. Of course, he was a trance, you know, the burnt rope thing, you know, that looks like a rope, but it's actually burnt, you know, from the inside.
So not the person-person, but still a person's life, a human life being lived. And that's the thing about... The idea that with living wholly in the self that the person disappears, and it's not true. There is still a person that's being lived through, or is having a lived experience. There's a personality and a person. Even though the burnt rope can still be in presence, you know, so it's the appearance of a person, but the spaciousness is evident at the same time. Because it was written,with Ramana that even though he used to read the newspaper and all that sort of thing, you know, just like everybody else, but still people in his field fell into deep stillness when they came near him because of his burnt rope thing, you know.
So it's that thing that I'm trying to... Feel through, you know, or, yeah, to feel through the concepts and, I know it's not concepts because it's the mind, but there is a person having a lived experience, a human life, but the self-consciousness is still and the life is appearing within that. Understand that but there's still that thing about um um that the person does not disappear. The word person comes from persona, the mask. So the mask is only a concept, so it appears to be a person, but in reality there's no such thing as a separate entity. It's all the one essence. Seemingly separate. But still, it'll still appear to be.But still there seems to be a human existence, you know, we have to eat, we have to go and pay the bills, we have to go to the toilet, blah, blah, blah.
That seems to also be an experience of consciousness experiencing itself through living, through the life. So there is the wedding. I think what I'm getting at is the wedding of the deeper sense of self within the human experience, you know. There's something, somehow I'm getting, that seems to be something that's calling my attention at the moment. Yeah, and wondering how that is for others. We're all, I know there are no others. At one level. And then another level is. You want to come to me, Bob? Sorry, that's a little bit cool. You don't have to answer that if you're... That's not a problem. Yeah, well, all experiencing, the experience and the experiencer are the concept.
The experiencing, the ING on things, the activity, the reality, being, experiencing, seeing, feeling.the I and G. There's something that's going on in the moment. I experience or I see. You're relating it to the separate entity, which is just a concept. And as you say, it appears to be very real and solid. Of course it does. Because we reinforce it constantly. Also what you say sometimes, Rob, it needs, the life needs the pattern to express truth without having the body-mind. And of course, every body-mind is already equipped with those behaviors which we call personality. And now, again, it depends on the definition. You may call person what I would call personality.
Like, look at this person here. That one has distinguished personality. It's completely different to her brother, and yet she lives in a natural state. She doesn't have a concept that she needs to awaken from personality and get rid of personality. And she still needs to go to the toilet and feed herself. So that's part of the pattern. For the life to be able to see, it needs eyes. So it dreams itself the body, so there is a perception. And perception is already dualistic, because it is governed by the...the mind by the computer which interprets things. So there is already 10,000 things and that little creature, she also sees objects, but she doesn't conceptualize separate me.
She doesn't conceptualize there is a person there and there is no person out there. So it's just like Bob is saying, one field of experiencing. And in that one field of experiencing, there is purring happening. And she doesn't say this is my stomach purring or my voice box or there is outside me. None of that. It's just purring. Like the analyzing is happening. Oh, the Ramana is this, this. Analyzing. In the field of experiencing is analyzing. But is that a person doing it? No, it's just what's happening. And seeing the world in this way, there is constant experiencing, the singular experiencing going on. And if there is an overlay of division, me, I didn't, I need to do this, or I need to, oh, it depends.
All that happens within the happening. That's the happening. H pattern is a unique expression. You could even tell, you know, if you had more than one car, even they seem to behave in some sort of, we have this another, you know, like the face recognition pattern, we also have theanthropomorphizing pattern. So we could say that the animals behave like humans or even the cars behave like humans. And again, this is just a pattern. Tony, did you want to add something? Just the flip side of what you're saying. Yeah. Probably for me and a lot of people, we're not about animals, so we don't tend to think, so that cat's zenned out, we wouldn't tend to think, oh, now it's a different person.
And then normal cat is like a person. We just tend to think, oh, that's nature happening. Nature's doing cat. And then if nature's zenned out and blissed for a couple of weeks, we'd just assume nature's still doing something. We wouldn't tend to see it as a cat person versus cat happening, if you know what I mean. Yeah. Sorry, I've probably confused you more. Just one thing on giving deference to a lot of the teachers, Ramana, Bob, Christ, Buddha, whoever these people were, were just ordinary people that saw very deeply into their human nature. And then I think the overlay comes from other people interpreting. Their behaviour as though he came back and became an ordinary person and lived an ordinary life.
But perhaps we should question that.The deference we give to these so-called enlightened masters, even that word enlightened masters, you know, question that. I think that's very important because it actually then interferes with our own looking because how could I ever be somebody of that calibre? You know, it really puts the whole thing totally out of perspective. Beautiful. Yeah, Bob often says, messenger rather than... Yeah. Yeah. It go on, Peter.Yeah, thanks. Yeah, it's funny, all this evening I've been thinking of cats, and I'm not really a cat person. I did have one when I was a kid, but, you know, I see cats in the street, and I...
And I'd learned so much from cats. You know, they... And, you know, one of the things that's happened is that there's no need to give an explanation of a lot of this stuff that goes on and the reasons for it and why it's happening. You know, it just happens that way and it's a wonderful relief not to come up, have to come up with an explanation for it. Yeah, I think that's about it. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. As the Zaga says, you can learn from every passerby. Everyone. And there was a funny story I heard once. Alan Watts was making a joke of, oh, maybe it was...
Maybe it has happened, that there was a seeker who projected, had a projection of a master in his next door neighbor who was an insurance seller or something. And hewould catch up with this guy and with that projection he would fall into a deep silence and then he would ask the insurance seller a question of life and he would give a vague answer and that vague answer in the seeker would grow into a profound truth. And that's what we often do. When we actually have our projection, someone is a bullshitter. Now you'll never hear the word they say. And this is life behind that bullshitter.
This is God, another disguise of God. If you would be able to see everything and everyone, every child, every animal, every cat, every tree. As another face of that absolute dressed up in a costume, there is nothing you would ever need to learn from anyone because that projection is a pure clarity already.I had this young guy that came to me once and he thought I was really spiritual or something weird. Anyway. What do you think? And he sat there and had his talk and he sat on the ground in front of me and I was drinking and I fell asleep. And he thought I'd entered this deep meditation.
And he sat there and he was doing his breathing like in front of me. I didn't know, I was passed out. I fell off for like half an hour. I wake up, I go, what the hell are you doing? You idiot. But, like, for that time, for that moment, you know, he believed something or whatever. Yes. I think Nisargadatta talks about something. I don't know, someone else, I don't know, but it's like at some point in your journey of experiencing, the deities, the teachers, the masters are all very real. And then they dissolve. There is none. There's actually nothing. There's none of that. None of that's actually real or true.
But then they, I think it's like the same Zen saying, before enlightenment there's a mountain, and then, or then, something about mountains, you know the story. It's like that. And then all these gods and deities and whatever masters that they...Their stories become so unreal and they absolutely completely dissolve in the one essence. And then the stories come back again, but they're playful. They're not serious any longer. That's all. I'll just shut up. No, that's beautiful. Yeah, definitely there is a path. It's a well-known spiritual path of bhakti, you know, of devotion. And following through the heart, leave the mind and just follow the heart. And any deity that represents something they can relate to is what that is, that path is.
And that's a known excellent path. To dropping the self. So they all have a role, those things, I think. You know what I mean? And of course in India where I am, it's so bhakti. There's temples on every corner and so many people go into rapturous. You know, during ceremony. But that's a known path and it's not a bad one for a lot of people. A lot of people it's good because the mind drops. It's not having to investigate the mind in any way or the self. It's straight from the heart. Yeah, so. These all have a role really. That's where it's sensed in the heart.
It's not the physical heart they're talking about. Heart is the core of being, the centre of the spirit. That's right. Failed to round here somewhere.Yeah, I don't think you can really dismiss anything. I agree with you. And as you said, these things come back again, and then comes around again. It was interesting to note that you referred to the great master, Nisargadatta, in your conversation about dropping our need to worship. The great masters.It's interesting, isn't it? I think what we're really looking at is what we see is ourselves. That's the only thing. Like if you see the great disembodied ashen rope thing in Ramana Maharshi, then that's you.
That's you. And I think that's the key, isn't it? You only recognise what you are in truth. It's like they say that the Indians, when the first ships came to the new land in America, that the Indians didn't even recognize the ships. They couldn't see them. It wasn't part of their experience already.We have a couple of comments from people who are with us. Amarna says, stillness, presence, awareness is ever there not to be thought or felt is prior to feeling and thought. Experience is also in mind. I never repeat it like dream. Memory and thought are not Ramana. In Ramana's self, both happen. And Giotti, best thing about cats is that they don't seem to look for validation from anyone.
Amazing. Amazing. They don't suffer from low self-esteem for sure. And Avanas says, to catch hold of elephant, false elephant is kept. Similarly, master is imagined as limited body-mind complex creation. Center is the center. I'll grab a card. Or you'll grab a card. Peek one. This one? Okay. You can read it. Oh no, I'll do it. Okay. Because I have the mic. Oh, you can do it now. Okay. So, this is the beautiful sunset. And it says here, mind, duality, works in interrelated opposites. It can't work in any other way. It grasps things. It can't grasp nothing. Any trying is futile. There is no answer to life in thinking.
Very simple, very obvious, isn't it? Of course. How could there? How could we ever resolve anything through question-answer? There really is no answer. The question itself is just the appearance on the screen. So it really is like Anita was saying, you know, the bhakti is just...dropping in the heart but the the fun thing is there really is no difference because it seemingly feels like they they are two paths you know the jnani or understanding and the bhakti or love and now that who is doing those paths some people go there and some people go there there are no people There really is just a description of something which seemingly from the hindsight feels like there was a process of getting clarity from the confusion.
But really, like Nisargadatta was saying, or was it Nisargadatta who said, you know, the ultimate understanding when you understand ultimately, you know there is nothing but heart. And if you feel completely and to the fullest, the clarity is included in it. So whether it is seemingly go into a mind and analyze forever and contemplate and answer questions and find logical explanations of things, you end at the place in which you realize that, oh shit, that only takes me that far. Just drop it, you put it aside, you're done, you spent 10, 15, 20 years dwelling in that story, okay, just give up, surrender, the mind doesn't go any further.
And then naturally, as the mind goes aside, naturally the light of love shines.And the other way, I know people who are on the bhakti path, and I knew people who were, and they committed suicide because they were so attached to the experiences of light and love, and the moment experiences were obscured, the life wasn't worth living. That's the pleasure addiction. Whether the pleasure comes from worshipping or the pleasure comes from any other source, that didn't take them to the point of understanding that behind everything is the same light, which is the understanding. So that love, that true love, when you really sink that to the heart without needing to explain and justify that he is my guru and she is not, when all that stuff is really discarded and it's marinated in that light of love, it makes itself evident.
That it is nothing that is not it. Like Nisargadatta says that when I'm nothing this is wisdom, when I'm everything this is love. Or nothing or stillness is wisdom and everything or movement is love. So every movement is really a movement of love. There is nothing that's not it. And he says, between those two, my life flows. Yeah, the me comes in it. My life now, my experience, the individual experience goes in between. Because...If there is no in-between, there is no experience. Experience can only be dualistic. Experiencing is the singular field. But experiencing nothing, experiencing everything, nothing, everything, that's two. Every experience is by its nature dualistic.
And that's lovely. Because isn't it wonderful to just be and experience and just experiencing the sunshine and the hunger and the poverty and the richness and all of it? There's no real difference when the mind's switched off. Absolutely. There's no real difference between the stillness of no thought and the movement of love when the mind's switched off. Absolutely. You're not thinking about it. I was about to. Yeah.And Amarnath says, mirror mind seen as object and personalities, we miss the mirror and phantom reflection seen as reality. Sure the eye, so the eye, so the eye. It ends that best suicide which is natural like dream. We've got 10 minutes to go.
Yes, so the good news is that I or the person or the entity doesn't really need to be, nothing needs to be done about it because it's not real. So, Amanas says, I suicide or I surrenders. Yeah, they're all pointers. But really, there is no death required. There is no death of the ego because there is no ego. What is to die? What is the ego? People have concepts of what the ego is. It's a new word, maybe 120 years old or something. And it represents the identity, identification. But the identification can be seen. And when it is seen, when the tendency to identify, and you actually even see how many identities you can switch through during one single day.
You go to work and you're an employee.And then you have people who are subordinate and you are a boss or you're a counselor or you're a friend or you're a daughter or you're a son or you're whatever. How many identities, how many egos, how many costumes is that life or that being putting on and playing on the stage? But this is all known. And once it is known, it is known and it is enjoyed and nothing needs to be done about it. It goes as it does, just like the cat. She was sleeping a moment ago, now she's playing or purring or whatever. All those roles she's playing and her brother as well.
Through the day and nothing needs to be done about it. There is nothing to fix about it. And just being that space in which nothing needs fixing, that's the true liberation. Nothing needs fixing. Nothing needs seen through, nothing needs done, changed, nothing. It's just as it is. That's it.Any movement or any effort that this phantom me will make to try and resolve itself or dissolve itself or see the non-existence of itself can only reinforce the false nature that it's actually a thing. So it just can't work. And that's it. Hmm. Bob, what have you learnt from your three cats? They're all above me. What is it?
They're all ahead of me. I come last. Catch when? No. No, you're the center of the universe. And the cats, all the three cats, no. All the three cats perceive him like a sun. Revolve around. We have the comment from JB. He says, I'm sure this is just repeating more of what is pointed at, but the one looking for liberation is a concept and can exist only within conceptually created world based on memory and imagination, which are also concepts.What is there minus conceptuality and objectification? Freedom from knowing is freedom from concepts and objectification. That's a beautifully put statement, yes. And Amarnath says, I is neither real nor false.
Thanks, Kat. I'm a bit like yourself, Bob. I've got three kids and a dog. And I found myself sitting on the floor and I looked at everyone up on the couch as there wasn't room for me. The dog was up there. Just one thing that I've been playing with this week. Is the idea, because I know the netty-detty idea, and Bob says, you know, you're not the cat, you're not the carpet, you know, you're not the couch, so you're not your hat, you're not your... We're not all these things, but one thing I've been playing with, and there's something else that Bob says, you know, I am that, you know, that is the chair, and so on and so on.
But just... Whatever comes up, just saying, I am that as well. So if it's a thought, I am that. If it's discomfort, it's that. If it's the sound of a car, the cars or the traffic, it's that. And you can't separate yourself from that.It's just another fun thing to play with, like everything that you sense or feel or why am that. It's actually a practice. Of course, one of the most difficult things to say in India is that I am Ramana. I am Arunachala. Nobody wants to hear that. I am that. Yeah, I heard someone saying that I am is the truth and everything that goes behind the I am is a lie.
I am is the truth and the way, although it was Jesus, wasn't it? I am is the way, I am is the life, I am is the truth. But what I am, the objectification of that sense of presence is just slipping off the razor's edge. But yeah, it could be interesting sort of a... Practice because as Bob says you can't separate yourself from anything because everything you as the awareness everything happens within that awareness within that field of conscious awareness traffic, the room, the people, the thoughts, the feelings, the pains, the dreams, desires, all of it happens within that field. So obviously if you are that field,How could you not be, how could you be isolated or separated from particulars?
But yes, identification as particulars can be a little bit of a fun mindfuck. What is it, Rumi, wasn't it? He said something about the field. He says, I'll meet you there. Oh yeah, where everything's gone, like concepts, thoughts. There was a field off of Gettysburg, exactly, and he said, I'll make you there. Yes, which is a beautiful poetry, but a paradox, because if there is everything gone, there is not I and no you.But yes, poetry has its own... Nisargadatta's words of wisdom is that I am nothing and love, that I'm everything. You could look at it another way where the practice, the traditional practice of neti-neti is negating.
So it's basically, it's really simple. It's really just sticking with the I am and not adding a damn thing. And that is wisdom. That is the same thing. And then the other way, and I think it's, I'm not very learned on these things, but the other practice of, I think it came from the richer part of India, where I am that, I am that, I am this, I am, so that's love is that includes everything, so I am everything. So you can explain like Nisargadatta's teaching in those terms, in traditional practices, wisdom I am nothing or neti neti, I am not this, I am not that, I am the I am.
And then, or I am all of it, which is love. I don't know if that is useful to mention, but it explains something. And we have another comment from Amanas says, creation is the creator himself, absence created as presence just like dream. And JB says, great spiel today, Bob.Thank you and wishing you all a great post-meeting meal and get together. And Heyman, that's the rumis, beyond the rightness or wrongness of things, there is a field. I'll meet you there. Thank you, Heyman. Yeah, thanks. Yeah. And yes, what you say, that, you know, all-enveloping love, that is everything, that I am the everything. It is the everything that cannot be separated.
But at the same time, I saw a couple of times people getting so high on the ideas that they would pick a plastic bag. This is who I am. This is me. And that goes a little bit of, hello, yeah, I know this is an exciting idea, but are you actually, is that experiential? Is that the direct experience in this moment? Because sometimes those high ideas can flip us over to the field of imagination that is so colorful and is so, you know, like cocaine can do. I don't know, I haven't had experiences with that. Not recently, anyway. Yeah, so the main thing is that this sharing is not removed from life.
It is not becoming.theoretical and I think we actually really doing well with that with really sharing from the heart rather than exchanging lofty ideas and concepts that are completely removed from this moment of experiencing. And thank you for that, everyone. You've done your job, yes. Good job. Well done. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Thanks, Bob. Thanks. Thanks, Kat.