The way is beyond concepts. Group nonduality investigation 16 Apr 2023

Traditionally starting with the name. Gilbert. Tony. Name. Barbie. Tony. Tharogen. Florian. Michael. Joseph. Eddie. Ross. And Paula. David. Jacinta. Cole. And Hale. And here we have Bob. So what are you going to say Bob for yourself? I won't be talking. Say it to the mic. Yeah? I'll be talking today about there's a book in the dark changes or a saying which points to be like an old man basking in the sun. So that's what I'll be doing. I'll be basking in all the energy that's coming from your world. So open up and let it out. Thank you darling. Yes, so we got to provide the sun today then for the basking.

So we are invited, all of us, to speak and to share and to ask questions and to basically reiterate whatever resonates. Because as we usually start from, you are already that presence awareness. You are already present and aware and conscious. There is nothing that you need to get. There is nowhere that you need to be or become. There is nothing that you need to find. There isn't really anything that you need to unlearn or drop. It's just really the simple recognition of what's already present. And what's present always and ever meaning timelessly present. So it is present in this moment. And if you want to conceive of any other moments which are only imaginary, are only concepts in the mind.

But that presence is there even in the moment of conceiving them in the imagination. So, yeah, there is no one here who would know anything more or less about the awareness of presence than you already do know yourself. When you move aside all the concepts that you put on top of it. So there is no one who is superior, no one who is inferior, no one who is more that than you are. Or more enlightened or clearer or closer to it. No, it is just very, very basic awareness of presence, presence of awareness, being that is shining through everyone. So to let it shine is just to drop away and put aside any ideas that can obscure it seemingly.

Because nothing can ever obscure it. No matter how many ideas you produce, you are first for those ideas to be produced on top. So it is really just coming back to that very simple, very obvious, very clear, basic awareness of presence. And giving it somewhat, giving it heart, giving it priority. Not putting all your heart and all your attention into a pretty little stories about what is not happening right now. About something that has happened yesterday or is gonna happen or may happen or will happen or would or could or should. Those things are not happening right now. They are not happening today. So they will get due attention when their time comes.

But right now is for the now. It's for this moment. So it is into relaxing. It's about relaxing into this, this current presence of awareness and letting it shine, resting in that awareness and letting it be. And let it express too. Let it sing its song, let it shine true and see where it is gonna take you. Because this, the content of consciousness, the content of awareness is changing all the time. So it isn't about the content. The content can be loved and acknowledged by all means. But the basic screen is what is the main. I'm just gonna include the people who are with us.

Yeah, the basic screen is the main source of, the only source, the only source of experiencing. So we have few welcoming messages and no questions just yet. But we're ready. So anyone would like to start us off, share something or share your experience or ask question or point us into a direction which may not be too clear for you at the moment. Maybe the basic sense of separation is not transparent enough. Because in the dream it feels like or it seems like or it is sensed like the body is separated from another body. And it is separated from the space around it. But really is it?

The sensory perception may be saying so. But if you look slightly deeper you can see that the sensory perception does not say that. It doesn't. It's the mind that comes on top of sensory perception with the division. This is me and this is the other. Without that mind labeling or naming things there is one open field of consciousness and within that field there is continuous interchangeable arising, spontaneous arising of different forms. Including the form of simming body, including the sounds and the sights. Everything arises in that field. In that intelligence energy. That's how Bob calls it. Because to call it intelligence energy not only is a little bit of a fresher term.

Although it comes from Krishnamurti probably a hundred years ago doesn't it? But it didn't take off the same way all the other concepts of awakening and enlightenment. Life energy, life essence. It is alive. It is constantly moving, expressing itself. It is and it isn't. Because as the potentiality it doesn't have any existence. But as the actuality it appears to exist. So we can't say that the forms are solid because they only appear to exist. But we can't also say that they don't exist because they appear. So it is a form of existence. Same as images, mental images, thoughts, they are also form of existence. So that whole manifested world exists, appear on that screen which is a no thing.

We can't say that there is a solid screen on which things appear. No. But they appear within the conscious awareness. So they are being known. Now coming back to that basic screen and seeing how it can't possibly be separated from anything that arises within it. There is only the mind that says, oh this is an object and I am the subject. But without that idea, no object or no subject have any separate existence and stand on their own. They just co-arise and appear and disappear within that field of consciousness which is always here and now. Which can't be denied. It can't be conceived as a form because it isn't a form.

But at the same time, even to say there is no existence or I don't exist. There is a consciousness for those words to have to be said. So nobody, I hope at this point, is ready to defend the position of not existing. Because that would be just a little bit of a waste of time. So there is an existence and within that existence there is a phenomena passing, coming and going. And that phenomena is not separated from the awareness of the phenomena. So this is really just one thing. And it is not even really one because as we say, they are all empty in their nature.

Apart from the way the mind perceives and projects and conceives of it as a separate object. Does not have any solidity and is dependent on everything else. So, but this is a little bit too far out to discuss the concepts of existence and non-existence. It is much, much more simple and much, much more basic. If you go back to the direct experience of this present moment right now. And realize that without any thought or any label, there is no problem with anything whatsoever. And there is no separation as such. There is just experiencing. But where that experiencing divides into me and the other or object experiencing and subject experiencing and object being experienced.

That requires a thought. Without the thought, life is really very, very simple. It is just this moment unfolding as it unfolds. And constantly changing in that unfoldment. And there is awareness of it. So there is really, that's it. Everything that is added on top of that awareness of presence is a thought. And that thought causes suffering. If that's a thought, oh I'm not getting it. Someone else gets it and I don't. Well that causes suffering. Because that's a primordial separation. There is something, I am something else. I am separate. I am apart. And I don't get it. Or I do get it. Or I have doubts.

Or, oh I'm getting it right now but I won't get it tomorrow. Or I won't get it when I leave the room. Those concepts. Those are all the clouds on the sky that needs to be looked at and discarded. The moment you look into the nature of thoughts and you see how throughout your life they were thoughts that seemed so certain. They were so believable. Even the thoughts, self-identification thoughts. Oh I am a nice cute little child. You're not the child anymore. Oh I am a horrible nuisance. That's again not the case 24-7. Less alone the thoughts that we might have about how long does it take for the school kids to get to vacation forever.

Different thoughts. Different thoughts. How quickly did the years pass by when we get older. Those thoughts. Things that we took for certain. Like not to mention the obvious. Like Santa Claus or flat earth or blue sky. The things that we used to believe with 100% certainty and we are ready to fight for it and defend it. Because that's my thought and I am right. If I am not right I am afraid. I am not getting it. So those thoughts which used to be certain and right now are laughable. You know that thoughts could be questioned and seen in this way and distrusted. So what what stops us from seeing all the thoughts.

All of them exactly the same way. All the thought. There is a God. There is no God. Well that's just thoughts. I'm good or I'm bad. That's just thoughts. There is no thought that holds any validity. There is no thought that is not empty. It's only the belief that gives thought seeming power. Seeming power because it doesn't have power. It's the belief. It's the attention. It's the life essence that floats the thought. So when the thought is recognized. When you see that other thoughts have already been discarded. And now you look at any other thought that comes up in the same way. And you just realize that it's just a thought.

Without that thought what's wrong? Without any thought what's wrong? There's life going on. And without the thought frankly rather than just residing in the level of mind which is the level of fear. You shift away. Relax away of that mind. And we can talk about being in the heart center. We can talk about being in the gut center. It doesn't matter as long as it is not the mind. Because the way the mind sees the mind. There is no mind. The thinking. The way the thinking sees and interprets everything. That program in the bio-computer there that interprets everything. As separate and relevant or irrelevant relative to me.

That one is the cause of all the psychological suffering. In the natural world we have the natural creatures. Butterflies and snakes and fish and cats and dogs. They don't have this sort of. This part of the interpreter in the mind. Which does the job of narrating everything and translating. As relevant to me. The creatures act instinctually. The body is protected. There is no risk that suddenly when you see the nature of thought. And you disbelieve that main sticky idea. That there is a me. There is a separate imagined entity there. That has some sort of a form. Or some sort of an existence. That is responsible for taking, making decisions, choices.

Who's got will to decide or preferences. When you discard that idea. You'll figure out that just like the rest of the world. The body is still looking after itself. The heart is still beating. Even though the eye doesn't control it. It never did. The body is still attracted to a particular part of. A type of entertainment or music or food. Just like every other creature. There is no need to have imagined self. Which takes credit for having all those choices, preferences and decision taken. It happens just by the way the whole organism is constructed. And is constantly updated by the rest of the universe. The weather updates its responses.

The food, the diet, the circle of friends. Every single little detail updates that mechanism. And it looks after itself. It responds to the world just the way it should. So the idea of imagined self saying that, oh no, I am doing it. I have to change. I have to grow. I have to become more complete. Or I have to find the truth. Or I have to discard the lies. That I isn't real. If you see that that I isn't real. Oh yeah, but everyone has the ego. Really? It just depends what you call the ego. If you say the ego is a personality. Of course.

Cats and dogs and birds, they all have ego. But what's the problem with that? Personality is just the sort of a dress that the body wears. But does the life has an ego? It seems to do if you imagine and believe it. Just like it seems to do when you're totally taken by incredibly convincing theater or movie. Or your own nightmare or daydream. That seems to be. That's how the world comes into existence. By the act of believing it real. But the moment we actually see that how it is all constructed. How it all just really watching the thinking process. Watching that interpreting services. How it happens.

The mind gets blown away. And that's when the heart steps into the field and wow. My goodness. Amazing. Nothing is wrong. Nothing should be any different. Nothing could be any different. There is nothing that needs to be changed. Because the change happens anyway. Whether there is a narrative going on. Or whether there is no narrative. So that makes it really, really. Simplifies the whole game of life. The moment you actually relax enough to just see how the life looks after itself. How it is inseparable. And everything influences everything non-stop in every possible way. And there is really no need for imagined self. And there is no need for imagined self taking credit for organizing the whole thing.

Because that thing is self-organized. Nobody does it. Nobody creates the thinking. Nobody needs to go into the ideas that, oh, I believe this and this is right. And you believe that and this is wrong. I have to convince you. No. Relaxing out of all that conceptual cloud. That conceptual noise. And staying in that amazement of this moment. Just as it presents itself. You with us? Yep. Yep. Good. Oh, baby. Yeah, good. You're listening. Lovely. Listening is going on. Yes, so would anyone like to contribute to Bob's pleasure of listening? There he is. Thank you. Yes, Kate, in regards to the ego, which we were just talking about, and other, could you say that the ego is the shadow self, in which most of us believe to be the real self?

Well, you could, yeah, that's not a bad way of looking at it. You could actually define it because it is, you know, in a way, it is your personal private universe. In a way, that part of this conceptual cloud of thinking, that's very hard to share. You might try to share it with someone, but then you quickly discover that what you think you are communicating. It's hurt something. Something else is hurt, and that's why people get astray. But you could call it that. You could, I heard few definitions of the ego that are completely inconsistent. Like some of the definitions that I heard was that ego is the shadow self.

Yes. So there is a higher self, everything that I like and accept about me. And then there is the shadow, the everything that I don't like, you know, being angry is acting out of ego, or being shameful, acting out of ego. Pride is an ego. That's one of the definitions. Another definition I heard is that ego is identification with the costume, with all of it, with good and bad, shadow and the highlights, all of it. So if I believe I am my personality, that's the ego. Another one I heard, ego is a chakra here. It's a point of power. It is something that sits there and it assumes power.

It doesn't really have any, but it assumes that it has. It's, yeah, it's, and it's probably as many people as, as talk about it, they have slightly different definition, and they may even think they're talking about the same thing. But they really don't. It's, either way, one, one thing is certain. It is a concept. It is a three-letters word. And what we put behind it, yes, it's, it's really impenetrable. Bob says there is no such thing as ego. Well, if you believe there is, you may experience there is. But if you look, yeah, what are you going to find? Even the, even to believe it is an identification with the image that I hold of myself, you can find that that image is constantly changing.

Yeah. One morning I'm feeling good about myself and my image is fairly healthy. And then 15 minutes later I break the glass or get the nasty phone call and my image crashes. And that identification just shifts from image to image. So even that is kind of full of holes. And the act of identification, what's that? It's extremely fascinating phenomena. When it comes into this is I, this is me. I had this really incredible experience probably about 15, 20 years ago when I was smoking a very, very strong extract of the divine salvia just to try it. And it basically just wiped off all the content of the mind.

But the first thing that arose out of that experience, which takes two minutes, was trying to identify what am I? Because I was relaxed out. I was looking at the ceiling and the lamp. Ah, this is what I am. And then as the mind was returning, you know, the access to that whole software database was returning. I looked around. Oh no, this, this is what I am. And then it was returning further and I could see people. Oh no, this is what I am. And then eventually it returned to the body. So it seemed almost as if, that was long, long time ago. I had no idea at this point that there is a possibility of living the life without any self definition whatsoever, which is only living.

I mean, the way when you self define and limit yourself, that's not life. That's, that's, yeah, life didn't start. But it was amazing to actually see this program of trying to assert and identify, trying to say, what am I? This program doesn't function here anymore. But when it did, it was amazing to see how it fits, how it constantly reevaluates to change its own. Yeah. But it, at that point, that was the lesson from, from, from the two minutes long experience. It is a program. It is a mechanical piece of algorithm, just like you put in the computer and your computer will say, oh, I am Alexa.

I'm your virtual assistant. I'll tell you what to do. It calls itself I. But what calls itself I? There is nothing there. In the same way, this sort of a virtual assistant here, it says, oh, I'm this. Oh no, I'm this. Oh, what am I? Oh no. So that's, to see it as a piece of software, which is completely redundant and which is really, I mean, it has its evolution, evolutionary uses because otherwise it wouldn't play out. As Bob says, this is a great perfection. The whole manifested world is a great perfection. So including the identification with the limited broken self image is part of the great perfection.

It totally has its place in the way the humanity evolved, in the way humanity finds its way back into the togetherness through, through forming bigger and larger groups, sharing the same stories, you know, stories about being men or being women or being Australians or, or being environmentalists or, or being environmentalists. Or whatever the story is, into creating a huge common projects like internet and stuff. So it has its uses. It is a great perfection. But there is a possibility for a yet greater perfection when you see it for what it is, when you see it is a piece of software that is completely wonderful when it works, you know, when it works the way it should.

But when it gets destabilized and disregulated and as the popular spiritual saying says, the mind runs you rather than you running the mind as if they were two things. But it is handy way to look at it. Yes. Thank you, Kat. And just on that, so it's a real question is, is, is, sorry. We know it's with us that, you know, whatever we call it, or whatever, the ego. But the question is, do, and it goes with us wherever we go in inverted commas. But the, is, is the question, do we identify with that, or do we not identify with that? Yeah. Yeah, you could say it this way.

I mean, if you call it ego in this, in this manner, then you probably mean like a personality pattern. Or whatever. Yeah, let's say, you know, that this, this body has the tendency to be introverted or extroverted, or has this set of values, or, you know, that sort of a costume, that sort of a lens through which it looks at the world. Oh yeah, it gets approval through helping others, or it gets approval through being weird, or whatever is the, the costume. Yes, so that one is part of the body, just like cat and dog, you know, you will have cat and dog that will be more kind of outgoing.

It is also conditioned. It is the result of the whole world influencing it. So yes, that one is part, just the same as you take your digestive system everywhere you go. Or you, or your pimples, or your freckles, or whatever it is that you take everywhere. The same way you be taking everywhere the deepest values, or the, or fears, or loves, or just the part of the, of the manifestation, of the, of the costume. But are you the personality? That's the question. Are you even the body? That's the question too. Because again, the idea that I'm personality, or the idea that I'm the body is just another thought.

And without that thought, without that thought, what's the experience? If you don't have the thought, I'm this body, or I'm this body mind, the whole thing, body mind. If that thought is parked aside, is pushed aside, what's the experience? If you don't even have the image of the shape and form of the body, just right in this moment, just push aside the image of how do I look? How do I, you know, my gestures and all that stuff aside. And now, you couldn't conceive of that thought. It's completely unavailable. Or you just, pfft, had the path of Saudi, whatever. It's, no, don't do that. I just, yeah.

Just gently push it aside. We have this capacity. And for a moment, just like Bob says, what's wrong with right now if I don't think about it? Or who am I? If I can't conceive of the idea of being body mind, what is there? And then you rest in that experience of what? Of what? What is it? Let's just have a look. Who doesn't think? Is there anyone who doesn't think? Yeah. Yeah. Good question. I mean, Tony, do you have, do you, do you have a quick moment when one thought ends and another starts? Or perhaps moments when you actually delighting in a chocolate cake or you see the mind blowing thunderstorm with a huge lighting.

Moments of guts without a thought. Everybody has those. Not to mention that everybody was born without language, without thinking. I said you, there's a presupposition. Give him a, sorry. I'm just, yes. There's a presupposition that no thought is a solution or an answer or something or other. And, and thought is inferior. So, all of that. And another question, you know, is, who is it that we're not separate from? What is it? What are we not separate from? Wonderful questions, Tony. Thank you. Now, I don't want a long answer. No, no, that's beautiful. I have an answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. The answer you have to find for yourself.

The whole talk is about, we're not separate, something, and I hear lots of words and so on. Yes. Mm-hmm. So, okay. So, if you want to give an answer to that one. Yeah. Well, I, I want to invite you and everyone to find the answer for yourself. Because what am I going to, oh, sorry. This one, this way. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The answer is going to be just more words. You don't want more words. What is it or who is it? There is no one. And there is no, no thing. So, the words are not going to be an answer and they're not going to stick with you.

And you're not going to even accept it. You're smart enough for that. Yes. There is answers that, that will help us conventionally. But you give it to us. But also. Yes. Yes. But also, there's that, that thing is, you know, if I was to say, who are you? What's your reality? You know, who are you? And so on. And then the Zen thing goes on. If you say something, you'll be beaten by a stick. And if you say nothing, you'll be beaten by a stick. Lovely. So, there is a, there is a solution to it all. You see, you know, I'm not separate from some, I'm not separate.

And then I'm not separate from awareness. I'm not separate from consciousness. I'm not separate. But that's all presupposing a purest reality behind it. There is a pure reality somewhere behind everything. That awareness is privileged and something more than just conventional, everyday sort of stuff. No. And that's what the, now that's the way I hear it. And you can disagree. Yeah, yeah. That's the way you hear it. Thank you for saying it. I hear it. I hear it very strongly. That's not the way. Yes. That's the, there's a presupposition. That's your filter. That's your filter. It may not be a thing. It'll be no thing. But there's always the, the talk is always about that there is some, there is a purest awareness somewhere in the background and that's who we are.

And so on. Yeah, that's how you hear it. And I don't, we don't, I can't find who I am. And so on. Yeah, you won't, you won't find it. You won't find it. There's nothing to find. No, there's nothing to find. Yeah. Lovely Tony. That's really good. I'm glad that you actually are meeting that this is how you hear it because that's what you're going to hear when you are talking in words and concepts. But this is not what we are saying. We are not saying that there is some invisible reality that is supreme and superior and I am that invisible reality. No, there is, you understand the word potentiality.

Like if you say potential for something in electricity, for example, you switch the light off and electricity doesn't flow. There is no electricity, but potentially it is there. When you switch the light on, it comes in and it shows up and the electricity is there, the light is there. But we don't say that the lack of electricity is a superior supreme awareness and the presence of light or electricity is inferior and that's not what I am. And you're totally right. You'll never find what you are. And you're right also about the talk of separation. The whole question, who am I presupposes a purest reality behind that.

And we're looking for some pure reality. Of course, you won't be able to find it. Yeah, mate. Yeah. And that is the reality is in not finding, not in finding something. You don't even find that. Who is proposing? What you would find, if I wanted to say, you'll find the absence of that. Just a conventional person speaking and that's all there is. Yeah. There's nothing but conventional. You know, I don't go to a transcendental realm. No one knows of it. And how would we know that transcendental realm anyway? So it's just purely conventional. And the conventional is the ultimate. Not that there is an ultimate, just to put it that way.

There isn't a difference. That's the non-duality of the conventional and the ultimate sort of thing. The non-duality of samsara and nirvana and all of that. Once we have those distinctions, you had a great thing on that Haishimin about no distinctions. Cole, you know about it. And that's where we distinguish. We distinguish some, there's some sort of, something better, something more privileged than this that's possibly there to grab hold of. No, we don't distinguish something better. The Haishimin is about distinctions. It's not making them better. I think you've added that. Yeah. When we do distinguish, then we make something better. Maybe. Who are the we, Tony?

Because all your conversations that we presume or we assume… Yeah, that's right. Conventional. Asking who am I. There is a we. We and you disagree with the we. I wonder if that whole we is within your head. Because I don't think anyone here actually has that sort of a presumption. And if anyone does, I request everyone please speak up. Do you, any one of you, presume that there is an I that is separate or inseparate or there is a supreme reality that is invisible God or someone? If you do, because Tony assumes that we all have that concept and he disagrees. And that's good that you disagree and you explain it beautifully.

But I don't think there is many people who has, who belongs to your group of we. Certainly I don't. And I don't think Bob does, do you? Well, anyway, just another one that a lot of people, you could all sort of think about, about this sense of an I or me or we. I haven't heard anything too convincing that has shown that there really isn't one there. Lovely. Now I've looked into it, I've looked into it and so on, but, but who has looked into it? Who has looked into it? Who's the one that's claiming? Yeah, that's right. And that's the conventional. You're claiming all this.

And who wants to be convinced? That's all that's going on here is conventional talk. Who was the one who just said that, Bob? Who, who was, who was it that just made that comment? The comment was mine. The comment was mine. Who was it? The comment was mine. I don't see any comment. You tell me, who was that that made that comment? The same one that was so talented as well there. The same one that was speaking there. Who was speaking there? Yeah, that's, that's lovely. That's, uh, Tony, I think, I'm really highly appreciative of your contribution because you seem to need to have someone.

Stir it up. Yes, that's lovely. But you also have claims that you need to hear something convincing. And that what Bob said is brilliant. Who needs to be convinced of what? Because nobody's going to give you the answer unless you see true. And not just the intellectual, conceptual, cloud in which you are green. You get a very good conviction or, or idea that there is no self. And that, that, and it's the, that is the most difficult thing. It's hardwired into us. Is we've rusted on as though there is a self somewhere behind these aggregates and so on. But I won't go into it. I, I'd like to hear people's, uh, someone, other people who have really experienced no self.

Do you, Tony? Yeah. Do you? I want to hear some other ones. Do you experience? I'm not going to give my secrets away yet. I want to, I'll hear some other people's secrets. Now, I would like, just to hear some people who have really, really, and you're so cool. And I agree. I agree that there's no self. No self. Sorry. I'm just sitting here. Okay. Yeah. Uh, there's a story about, uh, a bullock driver. And, uh, the bullock driver, every, every, um, every night, he puts these, um, hobbles, or I'm not sure what the actual word, they're like hobbles, on the bullocks so they don't wander away.

And in the morning, he takes these, these off. They're metal. He takes them off. And after a while, he, he found that just the click of these hobbles in the morning, he'd click them. And then the bullocks would be, uh, released from their captivity. And, uh, in the same way, the whole construction of what I am, what I think I am, can fall away just like a click of the, uh, the bullock driver. Mm. And you suddenly realize that everything you ever thought about yourself was untrue. And it's untrue because it vanishes almost instantly. And what is left? Total freedom. You suddenly realize that you're totally free.

You're not hobbled and you're not under any sort of, uh, constriction. Totally free. Yeah. But you can't say what that is. Uh, give us a... No, you don't have to say what that is. Yeah. If you're free, you don't need to define anything. You don't need to explain it. Yeah. You just know it. So, one of the pointers is that you, you cannot never know what you are, but you cannot deny that you are. So, we get caught up in trying to put labels onto the self. Even the word self is a label. Mm. But the sudden and unexpected, um, realization is that there's, there's absolutely nothing.

It's absolute no thing. Mm. So, the Buddhists have a saying in one of their texts that says, the intrinsic nature of all phenomena, not some phenomena and not some, all phenomena, is emptiness. So, if you look at the solar system, you know, we live on this earth. Our bodies are made from material from the earth and maybe from other places. So, the most important, in the scheme of things, the most important thing of this solar system is the sun. And the sun shines of itself. Scientists don't really know what's inside the sun, because nobody can go there and explore it. Same as the center of the earth.

You know, we have theories that it's nickel and iron or whatever and it's molten, but nobody's ever gone there. Jules Verne wrote a book, A Journey to the Center of the Earth, that it's a story. And we love stories. Yes. You know. 2001, Space Odyssey. It's a story. And there's a scene in that movie towards the end where the, the astronaut is, uh, is not permitted back into the spaceship by the AI computer called Al. And Al's taken on this, this idea of being a sentient being and having control. And he, he's not going to let the, the guy back in. And he ends up snipping the connection, the life support and the, the astronaut drifts off into space.

It's the most horrendous scene. If you're identifying with that guy in the space suit, he's drifting off into space. He's going to die. He's got no life support. And he's just out there. If you take this story to be real, he's out there floating around somewhere. So what this is a pointer, the intrinsic nature of all phenomena is emptiness. And if you look at what the Buddha, you know, the Buddha's famous character, but basically what he recognized was that no thing, that emptiness of emptiness. And he says, you know, there's no self nature anywhere. And we, in our stories, we get caught up with identifying of the body, mind and the story of me.

And it keeps us seemingly trapped. But the intrinsic nature of all phenomena is emptiness. So there is no one who's caught in phenomena or in stories. And that's what needs to be recognized. And it won't happen through stories or through some guru or something. Nobody can do it for you. You have to recognize it yourself. And you can't actually do it. It's, you know, some people say it's grace. You know, by the love of God, there's a grace that releases you from the bondage. But the intrinsic nature of all phenomena is emptiness. So that's a pointer. And the only value a pointer has is when you follow the pointer to what it's pointing at.

If you, I want to argue with pointers. You're stuffed. A pointer is there as a gift coming from what, who knows, from consciousness. You know, don't label it. A pointer is a gift. And not every pointer is going to do it for everybody. You know, we're all unique and different. One will hear something with one pointer and another won't hear anything in the pointer. But basically, if you stop following your thoughts, if you watch the mind and see how it operates, you'll see that thoughts appear upon the consciousness. And they seemingly create lines and stories that lead away from right here, right now. Psychological realm of suffering and whatever and joy.

You know, there's always a bit of joy in there somewhere. So, watch the mind, see how it operates. Nobody can do it for you. And it's effortless. It's like a mother watching a child playing on the ground while she hangs up the washing. She's got her eye on the child. It's not an effort. You know, she loves the child. You know, she cares for the child. So, watch the mind. See how it operates. And it will point you back to the essence that you are. Everything is pointing back to the essence that I am. But if I try to fixate on something that I am, which is the master key, I am.

If I add anything to that I am, it's going to be a story. And it's going to lead to suffering for the one that identifies with it. And who is that one? Who am I? There's no answer to that question. Who am I? The answer is silent, wordless. The essence of life itself, intelligence itself. But these are all labels. So, what's the way out? The way out is to realize you've never been in it. You've never been in anything. The true absolute essence of everything is singular. And we are all that. So, enjoy the stories. Poor me. Oh, you won't believe what happened to me on the way here today.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was just about to say. Yeah. But then I... Sorry, Kat. We're a big... Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. I just... Today, I knew I was coming here to hold the microphone and I said... And, you know, you don't want to let people down. So, we know there's no such thing as time. So, you know, I sort of set the intention and I was... You know, I've come to see that I'm more the experience of a lot of things. And I was here and you sort of knew I wanted to get here by 20 past 10. I knew... Anyhow, I was just in the car, left music blaring, every green light.

Then all of a sudden with the rain teeming down, flooding. And in that moment, I'd let go of all nothingness. And I went into... And I said, oh my God, I've got a ring, Kat. I'm not going to be here on time to do... To hold the microphone. I let the thing go. And I set my intention for 20 past 10. And I arrived at the front at 10. So, as soon as you let... As soon as you go into Panic Moan, I got these red lights. And I let go of it. Just went into my own, you know, singing. And I got the green lights and got here on time.

And everything can change. Just the experience. But I already... Yeah. I don't know. It just seemed how life can be the experience. So, yeah. Can I hear? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'd just like to say something about conviction. Just when there's a sort of drifting around and there's no fixating on any kind of label. There's no definitions coming up whatsoever. It's just drifting. There's absolutely no such thing as conviction. What's that? Conviction. There's no such thing as conviction when... Yeah. There's no one to be convinced. When you say... Ah. No conviction. No conviction. And that's why one of the pointers doesn't make any sense to me is that you know that doesn't make any sense to me.

Because there isn't any sense of you know. Or you know there's existence. Those don't kind of go on to... no none of it none of those things end up on my because those words aren't even coming up okay those notions are just not there there's just you know stuffness just there's just i mean you could say the stuffness but you have um labels have to come up again to even say that yeah so so so it's just and for me honestly it's never very long because because you know reactions come back in and bubble of labeling comes back in all the time which is why i'm working mostly on dropping my crap you know because that's that's what triggers me out of floating around um the other thing i like to say is that i would suggest that whenever the stick is being used just from some recent reading i've been doing on a lot of um i'd say a lot of cultish behavior that creeps into an awful lot of guruship um that stick is being probably operated by reactions that we call ego so so you know the stick that hits when you say something stick hits when you don't i would suggest i don't know i would suggest that seldom there is some kind of universal response that is going to knock that person into awakeness um umhta and and you're gonna go and and and you're talking about pointing to an essence and so on and and and you're talking about pointing to an essence and so on well i'd say it's pointing to emptiness or a lack of essence a lack of things a lack of that you know if you wanted to put that but they're just words as i said it's all conventional and so on but but that's all we've got and the whole idea of the That's all we've got.

And the whole idea of the conventional in talking about it is to eliminate conceptualisation. What's conceptualisation? I was born, I will die, you know, I'm happy, I'm sad, I've got friends, I've got enemies. That's all conceptual, all made up. Everything is made up. But we think there's some reality in that, that I was born. We really do think it. So all I'm saying is just removing those conceptual things. And the biggest conceptual is self-nature, which you've pointed out there isn't any. That's the biggest one. How do you remove the conceptualisation? Can you tell me in 25 words or less how you remove the conceptualisation? You don't.

Well, you just said, you just said you have to remove this conceptualisation. I mean, you're talking in circles. From the beginning. But conventionally, this is the usefulness of words. That's all. There's nothing but convention. And that's all we're talking about. And who invented the convention? That's right. Who introduced the convention? Who is the great one who brought in this convention? Yeah. It's you. It must be you. Yeah, I'll ask you the question. Is... No. Yeah, I've got an answer. I'll ask you the question too. Oh, I know the answer. I've got my answer. Is what... Who is you and who is the one that just said that?

Now, what is that? Give me a description of that. Who is the convention? You've been speaking. You've been speaking. You've asked me the questions now. I'm not going to give my answer until I hear yours. What's your... Oh, okay. Yeah, go on. Now, what's your answer? Who was that one? I'm not going to ask you the question and I'll answer your question. Consciousness is utterly and independent. Can you argue with that? There's nothing independent. That's right. Yeah, yeah, but... But consciousness is independent. Yeah, but just to put conventionally, something that will help us, who are you? Nothing can help you. Now, I'm going to ask you, who are you?

Who are you? I am the consciousness. Yeah. You're not the consciousness? No. No, you're backing for that. What... What I'm saying, I'll give you my answer. I'm nothing more than a bunch of conditions coming together. Fair enough. Like, you know, if you... Let's say you've got fire. Fire appears when you've got the conditions of fuel, oxygen and a spark. And that's all there is. There is no I or anything in this. It's just a matter of conditions coming together. And when the conditions are such and such, something appears. When those conditions cease, that ceases. As far as on my body, when the conditions come together, appearance and so on, I appear.

Eventually in the conditions cease. I've got old age, sickness and so on. I might cease. Or so... But nothing really ceases. And because nothing really originated. But that'll do, anyway. Lovely. There's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. But I'm not sure what point you're making, Tony. What point? What point you're making. I agree with that. I agree with that. So what point you're making... And I'm sure if you talk to everybody here, Bob included, he would agree. Well, he said he's awareness. I just said... No, he didn't say that. That's all. No, he didn't say that. He said you're pure...

You said you're awareness. Are you consciousness? Or consciousness. Same thing. Are you conscious and aware? Yeah. That's consciousness? Yeah. Can you argue with it? And I'm saying there is no such thing as consciousness or awareness. Are you conscious or no? I'm conventionally conscious. Yes. But no. Is there such a thing as consciousness? No. No. It's empty too. Consciousness is empty. Awareness is empty. They're all empty. You said it, Gilbert. Yeah, but why are you arguing? What are you arguing with? Because you said you're aware of. You said you're aware of. Yeah. You said you're aware of. Yeah. You said you're aware of. Yeah. You said you're aware of.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What are you arguing with? Because you said you are consciousness. And you were arguing with that? You didn't say you were empty. Anyway, I'll let someone else go. Okay. I'm not going to distract any further. Hey, everyone. How are we doing? We have that in writing. I just wanted to slightly just add to that. It's actually a conversation I had with a friend. And I said, we were sitting and being direct, I guess, in the moment. And I said, I am that. And then he said to me, not even that. And I feel like that I am the consciousness. You know, we get the point.

It's, you know, it's a really good way of describing it using concepts. But to go one step further, I'm not even the consciousness. Beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful. He said, I am that. I'm not even that. I'm conscious. I'm not even conscious. Yeah. We say the same thing. So what's the word about consciousness and awareness? Tony, you think that your words are better than any other words. Well, I am coming out of the way. As you. No, that's wonderful. That's wonderful. They're best for you, really. I mean, you know, they work with you and you are completely happy and fulfilled. That's wonderful. See, those people came here to Bob.

They resonate with his choice of words. You may have more people coming to you because they resonate with your choice of words. But the way is beyond language. It doesn't matter whether you use the word consciousness, non-consciousness, emptiness, God. It doesn't matter. It is about relaxing out of that conceptual. I'm right. You're wrong. You don't get it. I get it. We all disagree with I. That's your picture. That's your story. That's the way you perceive it. Yes. I say that this is really about inviting people to relax out of that position into finding out, okay, I don't like this word. Just like Tony says, don't bother with it.

Don't worry. Use the point that Gilbert was saying. Their gift. If they do the job and shift you out of conceptualizing. Wonderful. If they don't, put it aside. There is no need to tear apart pointer. You just ignore it. Take a different. You prefer different word. Existence, non-existence. They are the same. You can't say they are because they just words that we stick on that which is ineffable, inexpressible, beyond language, beyond language. So if it resonates with your heart, if it rings the bell, relax into that. If it doesn't, choose different pointer, choose different words. The thing is, again Gilbert was saying, nobody can convince you, nobody can do it for you.

You have to really look for yourself. And you can't do it yourself either. Well, you can't do it by yourself, but you can stop doing the opposite. You can stop sabotaging. And this, sitting in the head and arguing with everything and everyone, is actually really a weight of... I'm not arguing at all. I'm really grateful. Thank you for steering the pot. This is really fun. I love it. I don't mind at all. And thank you. And what you said, you know, that there is an assumption that words or no words, that no thought is better than thought. No, no. This is again, not what we are saying here.

If we say, pause the thought, it is really just to see that before the thought or prior to thought or without the thought, existence is unaffected. And then, yes, go to thinking, feeling, everything. It doesn't matter. We have this purest reality that it's something unaffected. Anyway, we won't. I won't go on. That's your concept. Let someone else have a go. No, no. If you have that concept and you're absolutely happy and fulfilled and you just shine that light of your joy and fulfillment, the way you can see Bob is shining with love and compassion because of that concept that you hold and the way you express them, just wonderful.

Wonderful. Wait for people to come to your door. I'm sort of letting people know what I'm on about and some people may be interested in what I'm on about. Wonderful. But it is very different to the Hindu, the Advaita, very different. And, you know, we always say, oh, we're just saying the same thing, just different ways of putting, saying the same thing. Well, no, I say, no, it's conventionally, it's not the same thing. It's very different. Yes, yes, conventionally, you're totally right. Absolutely. If you delight in finding conventional differences in between, I think you would do wonderfully with science and research. Conventionally, you can really focus your sharp intellect on any differences ever.

But we are going beyond language, beyond the conceptual clouds. You can't go beyond language. Relaxing out. Relaxing out. So your position is theoretical. Your position is theoretical. And you can. That's your theory, your conception, your convention. But it's only theoretical. Yeah. It's not actual. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You need to learn a whole theory. I think what's been pointed to here is not the, like you're saying, the theory of what's been spoken about, not just here, but through time immemorial, like this is the same teaching. It is the same teaching, like you're saying. It is. It's exactly the same pointing, just. No. No, no. I'm saying about the Advaita and all this non-duality.

I'm a Buddhist. I'm a Buddhist. I'm a Buddhist. Very different. And even like religious, even like Christian and Muslim. Yeah, very different. It's all, in its own way, it's all pointing to the same thing. And like you said, it's not a theoretical thing. It's an experiential thing. So it's dropping all those concepts, dropping all those ideas and demands and all the theory behind it, getting to the point where you're completely, and we've spoken about it before, where you're completely exhausted in the theorizing and the trying to get somewhere through the doing and all that sort of stuff. And you get to a point where all of that drops away in whatever way it drops away.

Exhaustion. Through exhaustion or through a realization even through the mind that I'm never going to get this as who or what I think I am and the capabilities which I've got at this point in time. I'm never going to get this. But it's that experiential part where you have to, to a certain degree, let go of these things to allow that experience in that ultimate experience of what you are. It's not something separate. I don't have an ultimate. No ultimate. No ultimate. Exactly. It's like it's a... Or a God figure or Brahmin or Atman. The more you allow, and this is like where the term faith comes in.

Yeah, you have to, there's a bit of belief and allowance in something greater than, than the story of the person at this point in time. Like everything that you know to this point in time, there has to be a lessening of that rigidity of, I know, this is, this is who I am and this is what, like, you know what I mean? The more rigid and the more solid you are from your standpoint, the less chance there is of anything more or anything new or anything greater being allowed in, you know? And this is, this is sort of like, I understand, and like even, even we talk about interpretation of words and stuff, yeah?

Like the things that you're saying to a, to a degree are making sense to me because it is, it is that same yearning at the end of the day. Like you're not here by some accident, you know what I mean? Like you're, you're here because there's something, a greater calling if, if you will. Yeah. Like, there's something that, that's, that's, that's calling you here. That's, that's, that's inviting you into these meetings and to looking at a little bit deeper. And, well, I agree with, I agree that, you know, whether you're Muslim, Christian or Advaita or whatever label you want to put under them, I don't go under any label and so on.

But I, I see them as, as quite correct. I'm not here to attack all of those things. And generally speaking, people who are following, it doesn't matter what it is, Muslim or whatever, it's probably right. It's, this, what I'm talking about is where perhaps someone's ready to stretch a little bit further sort of thing and so on. But I, I certainly will say that, that I'm not saying the same thing as Advaita, you know, and now, and, and there's going to be a, and, and that difference is going to sort of accumulate a bit, mainly because they, behind the, the, is there sense of some, you know, pristine state or, or some ultimate or something, and Atman Brahman, which is what the Hindu's based on.

And that's where I just say, no, no such thing. And, and there is that supposition, presupposition that there is some reality, some ultimate, you know, when, so on, because we don't want to be just stuck with the, in our puny bodies and we just die and so on. We want something more than that. And it's a, it's this idea. There is something more. Well, I've just come to the conclusion. There isn't anything more. Yeah, but how have you come to that conclusion? Well, this is the thing. It's, uh, yeah, it's, it's reading the text. And this is, and this is what I'm saying like this.

I couldn't do it on my own. Yeah. But this is what, this is what I'm saying. This thing that, that, that we're talking about here, it's, um, it's the, it's, it's beyond that experience. It's beyond, it's beyond what the mind can, uh, deduce, um, in a complete sort of sense. It's, it's beyond that. It's the experience where you go in terms, in terms of love. Yeah. Like, um, love is, it's beyond words. It's not like a conditional love. Like I love this person or I love this thing, or I love doing this. A love where everything melts away. Like you're, you're completely exposed. Like there's, there's no concepts.

There's no desires. There's no regrets. There's no, there's no, there's no, there's no, there's no, there's no, just a complete piece. Like this is what it's, it's pointing to that emptiness. That's me. That will, how will you know this, this pristine, this transcendental through the mind, through thoughts. No, no. So you know what I mean? You'll know. We're never, we're never going to get out of thoughts and mind. And that's not a negative. But that's just an opinion as well. Oh, everything we know is just through our mind and century. But this is the thing. Now it's now it's now it's now it's now it's sort of.

From what you're from what you're saying, you've got these set, these set beliefs. I'm never going to get past this. There's nothing more than this. And you've already made your mind up. It's absolutely. It's absolutely, you know, undeniable. But how have you come to the conclusion? Have you gone beyond their mind? But have you, but have you, but have you actually investigated like Bob's saying? Like, have you done, have you done those investigations? No, I haven't done those. I've just read the Jamaica. But this is what it is. It's, it's apart from all the reading and everything else. It's, it's an honest look inward like doing like, all right, I'm sitting here right now.

And like people will call it meditation, but it's, it's that reflection looking inwards. Yeah, like, all right, I'm, I'm sitting here at the moment, you know, you exist, I exist. What else do I need in this moment to continue existing? You know what I mean? And this is the direction that it's pointing to like, what have all these ideas and all these things that we hold on to? What are these things that we need in this particular moment to still exist, to still be here? Like, what do I have to put into this moment as an extra to keep me here, to keep me aware, to keep me existing?

And this is the direction. And it is, it's, it's beyond, it's beyond the words. It's like, at a certain point, you have to stop talking about it. You have to stop arguing. You have to stop stating your, your, your firm stance on, you know, like, but, but, and this is, and this is the thing. And it's difficult to do, like, I completely understand. Like, you just have to let that go. And this is the hard, this is the bit that's keeping us all, all here. And, and, and, and, you know, letting that go. What is that thing that you're letting go? What is this stance?

Who is this person that, that's defending this viewpoint? You know, like that investigation. And, and the more these things are seen, the more they drop away, the more your, your clarity grows, the more your stability grows, the more you can have that experiential. Oh, oh, it's, whoa. Like it's something, it's something greater than I could have ever imagined. Like I was, I was thinking this, but it's, it's nothing to do with, with any of that. And none of it's, none of it's for nothing. Like everything is a little alignment and an adjustment and a refinement to, to the direction that we're, we're all sort of trying to head in here.

And, you know, but if everything is necessary, everything, everything's perfect as well. Even these questions you're asking here, it's, it's, it's making everyone else ask things again and see things again and everything else. So there's nothing, there's nothing wrong, but even, even the things that you're saying, like, I can sort of sense that you're interpreting a little bit different, but you are pretty much in, in kind of alignment with, with everything else that's going on here as well. So, yeah, I hope, I hope that, I hope it helps. That was beautiful, Zion. That was brilliant. I appreciate that. I, I don't think anything that's being said is different anyway.

And if I, and if I ask Bob, is there anything else than this? No. It's not, all look at the statement. Nothing is seen, yet it is seen. Work that one out. Yeah. It's like the mirror, there's, all those things appearing in the mirror are nothing. You have to seen. Work it out. And you won't need anything. And you can stick it in your head since up your jumper and do it with all the rest of the concepts. Can you repeat that? I miss what Bob said. I miss that. Yeah, the concepts, you know. Stick them up your ass. Like, Zoran was beautifully and gently saying, the time is, the time comes when you're just not satisfied with being right.

When you are maybe willing to see beyond that fixed position of, oh, am I willing to actually say, I don't know. Somebody has convinced me, some writing, I have taken on board and believed. Am I actually willing to investigate and look deeper? Is that true or is that just a belief? When I was two year old, I had no those ideas and the life was going on just the same. So, how much am I willing to be wrong and figure out for myself to really deeply experience it? Rather than parrot somebody else's concepts written in some books that I've learned by heart and can repeat very intelligently and eloquently as mine.

Really, what's true deeply beyond that cloud of concepts? And then words may come that are inadequate. The words may be argued. The words, yes, maybe emptiness is better than existence than non-existence. Who cares? But really what comes out from that heart of hearts, from the direct experience, not from books. Joseph. Joseph. Joseph, yes. I just was in one moment because I found it very interesting interaction. And actually I put my hearing a bit more up and then I thought there was this, I forgot your name actually. Tony. Tony, yes. And then I first I thought, oh, okay. So I thought there was something I resonate with and because it maybe was more theological.

I am also sometimes theological. And then I thought, oh, now I can see the pointer in a different wording, the condition of the environment. And I thought, oh, that's also the condition of my story. It's also such and such. So there's a lot of things where I thought, oh, okay. So I can't really put it in words, but I was a good pointer when I may go to suffering. I, it might help. So I'll find out in the future, I think. And then, when, and then I thought about the same question, then I noticed the same thing as when you said we. I said, oh, we, we, we, oh, he said we.

Oh, and I was wondering why we, and then you asked and then I thought, ah, that's why it's we, because, well, it's my story, I guess. It's because the invitation of us to interact in that conversation, which also was happening because of the question mark we. And that's how it was interacting. And then the conversation continued because that's what you were after as well. You wanted to find people to talk. So you want, that's why you say we, I think. Yeah. And David, David. Oh, okay. I was going to hear. Oh, sorry. You can go, David. Yeah, you go. And then. Thank you. And then.

I'm back. Yeah, I'm back. You too. About 2,000 years ago in Athens, a follower of Socrates came up to him and said, you are the wisest man in, in Athens. And Socrates refuted his statement. About a week or so later, I believe the same two came together. And Socrates said, as a matter of fact, I believe you, you are correct. I am the wisest man here. The reason being that I know that I know nothing. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. And then we'll. And I think it sort of behoves us to, you know, in investigating and looking at life as not to get stuck in theoretical positions or convincing ourselves that the mind itself holds the answers.

And we have some conclusions and with that beliefs and all that sort of thing. But to. When, when you come to, to see that, then you start really experiencing at a deeper level. And in a way, there's like a dimensional shift in you. It just happens. And, and it can't be known by the mind. It just can't. I can talk about it now because, but to be in that is really something else. And I know that a number of you here know that, but you don't, I'm afraid. Yes. That's your opinion. No, that's what you've said. That's what you've said. Yeah. It's not my opinion.

That's actually what you've said. Yeah. Yeah. See, I demonstrate to get to go beyond the mind. You need to be able to demonstrate that and who, who anyone, anyone here could demonstrate going beyond our sensory perceptions and our cognitive mind function. And we can't go beyond it. But it's not a physical. It's not something that can be expressed on the outside of like physically, well, he's manifesting into something beyond a mind, you know, like it's not, it's a, it's a noticing of the words that have been spoken and where they're coming from. You know what I mean? Are they coming from an ego perspective where is he trying to be right?

Is he trying to force a point of view? Is he trying to manipulate something? Is he trying to deceive? Is it like, you know, is it something being pushed or forced? Or on the other hand, is there an, is there an unconditional offering and availability, a love, a presence there from this person, whoever it might be, which, which one, which one is it will give you an idea on the manifest side, whether, whether there is something deeper coming through or whether it's a, just a mental argument or a standpoint that's that's being defended for whatever, whatever reason, you know, like this is, these are the things that I look out for.

If there's something, if there's something that somebody says a pointer that, that is actually coming from a deeper place of a place of not, not from the person. It can be, if the person, if the person hearing it is open to it and is in a position to hear it deeply, there'll be a resonance. It'll be like, like I said before that, oh, like you, something was allowed in and something was heard. So it's not like, um, if Bob or Kat are expressing something, not all the time, there'll be, you know, like, like fire or something more than, than the person, um, exchanging words with, with someone else or sharing something.

It's, it's something that's felt deeper. The, the pointing, you know, like you're saying, not every pointing, not many pointings will be heard by, by many people, but you know, that, that one pointing, which has come from somewhere deeper, you won't want to hear any more words for a while after that. You'll sit there and, and something, there'll be a realization to whatever extent it is, whether it's a complete annihilation of the person or, you know, something that's, that was heard enough to soften your standpoint or your view or your perception on, on what's going on. And, uh, just to allow more, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a subtle, it's a subtle thing.

It's not a crazy manifest expressive sort of thing. It's a more subtle thing the other way, which just brings you, brings you down to whatever, you know, however many notches you're ready to go down. And this is the thing we're talking about last time, the less, the less of Zoran or the less of Tony there is here, the more of that that's available, um, for, for discovery or for whatever you want to sort of call it to, to bring you sort of to a, to a nicer, nicer level, a quieter level, um, a more, more clear sort of position. And it's like you're demanding that a ruler be used to measure temperature.

So you're just saying, you know, this is the paradigm. You know, you have to prove this to me in my paradigm. These people are saying, yeah, but there's something called, there's temperature out there, and you can't measure it with a ruler. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, everything's a paradox, you know, uh, you know, we, you can say we exist and then it doesn't exist. You can say a mirage exists, but it doesn't really exist. Something's true. So you're never ever going to get the words that are, you know, and that's the Buddhists are very good at paradoxes. So you can go the faith route and just say, yeah, but what they, the truth out there that someone else is talking about, is it worth just, um, maybe taking an approach to experience it and see if they're just not talking bullshit, you know, because it doesn't fit in my paradigm.

And we were, we were operating out of different paradigms. They're not, you know, any less good or bad or greater or smaller or anything really. Experience might say feels that way, but, um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you go, I can I. That the. Yeah, you go, I can. Yeah, you go, I can. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I can. You go, I can. Yeah, I can. You go, I can. Bob told a little story about this group of people climbing a mountain. And they'd taken a certain amount of water, but not enough.

And they got a bit of the way up and they ran out of water. And one of them saw that there was a stream down in the valley. So he went down and he's climbing over rocks and scratching himself and hurting and breaking, not breaking bones, but it was a hard trip. And he took a vessel down and filled it with water and he took it back up to the others. And Bob's point was nobody in that group is going to say, stuff you, I'm going to go and get my own. They would partake of the water that's there. And really that's all that's happening.

And if you read Bob's first book, there's hundreds of pointers in there. And one of the ones that struck me when I first was transcribing it was the activity of knowing is spontaneously happening. It's not what is known, which is the past. It's not what will be known. It's happening in the immediacy, the activity of knowing. The ing on the end means it's happening now. So what is this activity of knowing? What is this consciousness? You can't find an answer to it, but you can't negate it because that's all there is. Consciousness is all there is. And you can argue about the word consciousness or awareness or whatever.

But that activity of knowing is really the base of everything in your experiencing. You can't postulate something outside of that activity of knowing. And the thing is, it's ever fresh and ever new. So it cannot be stored in memory. You cannot store this immediacy in memory, but you can store pointers to it. And that's all that's happening is that, you know, this guy's gone down, got the water. He brings it up for the rest and he shares it. And that's what pointers are. They're sharing something in words or in gesture that points back to that essence of the activity of knowing. And it's happening spontaneously.

Same as the seeing, the hearing, the tasting, the touching, they're all spontaneous. Where did the ego come in and say, I did that? You know. It's a nonsense. The me doesn't exist in the immediacy of consciousness. It's a mental construct, which is in time. The mind is time. And the mind appears upon the consciousness. But you cannot find something called mind. It's just an activity. And you cannot find the self. You cannot, you know. Has anybody ever found the self? What does it look like? What color is it? What shape is it? It's just a concept, an idea, a point. You've got a tree. You've found a tree.

No. Nothing. It's all words. So that activity of knowing is spontaneous. It's like, if you can call it grace, if you want. The grace of God. I give these things to you out of pleasure. It's my pleasure to give you these things. And if you want to argue about them, that's your problem. Also, in Buddhism, they say, it is the language, Buddhist language, that field of potentiality. They call mind. We say there is no such thing as mind. But they call it mind. And it isn't better or worse label. It's just another way of presenting it. But they also say the moment of so-called illumination is the moment when the mind opens and all positions are relaxed and everything is included.

That open field of mind doesn't exclude any position. It doesn't take any particular position. That's the place of freedom. That's the place of freedom where because I don't locate myself here. This is my position. This is what I believe. This is what I am convinced of. There is no I there anyway that needs defending. So there is one big field of open curiosity. There is one big field of I can't assert anything. I can't deny anything. I don't really even care doing it. That moment when the mind opens up and when it happened when I was in the presence of Bob less than 80 years ago, it was the point in which it wasn't that suddenly something else was revealed or something else was known.

It was sudden opening up complete and release from everything that has been known. I thought I was that limited, miserable, desperate, suffering human being who has been rejected, neglected and humiliated and all that stuff. And suddenly this was gone, completely relaxed and it became laughable to even conceive of anything in that open field that could have been asserted. Nothing can be asserted. Even the idea that I am was too much of the words already or the idea that I'm aware of the presence. There was no interest in the I asserting or denying or declining itself at all in the relaxed mind. There is no I that needs to be right or wrong.

There is no I that needs to be big, small or in any position. There is just life, life-ing. And in that life-ing, dancing, changing field of open mind, what is there to say? What is there to agree or disagree? What position is there to take or wrong or defend or argue about? And from that place, when singing song happens or writing poetry happens or anything happens, well, that's what's happening. Nobody is doing it at all. And in fact, nobody is even doing defending and arguing. That is just another piece of software that is very active in the particular body-mind organism. And even that is just the whole universe life-ing itself and expressing as that position.

It's much simpler than it can even be expressed or pointed at. But when it is realized, that full simplicity, there's nothing left to do or undo. Nothing. It's just as is. I just wanted to talk about the, just like, talk about a pointer in a slightly different way. But just the whole beyond the mind thing. I feel like conceptually when you use that phrase, you know, and for me it was fine. You know, but beyond makes it seem like it could be after. So you've got a mind and you've got to find something beyond that. So, like, I feel like another good way of looking at that is before the mind, before the mind, you are.

And the best part about thinking it as being before is that, okay, there's nowhere in the future that we're going to get to and find that. Like, it's happening before that. So, to find it, you have to just relax into right now and your answer will be here now. And, you know, it will come out as a sound. And then the sound will be pointing towards what is before, you know. And, you know, that can be overwhelming or it could be underwhelming. People call it subtle. People call it like an energy or whatever. I think when I first met Bob, well, that's what we call him.

I, yeah, I'll give you a story. I've been through a lot of seeking, like probably everyone here. And, you know, I read plenty of books, the Gita. And I practiced a lot of yoga, you know, a lot. And I never got really any closer to, you know, what it is that I was looking for when I was, you know, doing all of it. And, you know, I was intense. It's like I do like 10, 11 hours of yoga because I thought the harder I practice yoga, you know, the closer I'll get to finding that answer. And, but still, obviously, I wasn't getting the answer. So, there was still that seeking there.

And, you know, just, you know, the algorithm on YouTube was kind to me. And call it an algorithm. And, yeah, I came across Bob and then had the meeting with him. And in that first meeting, you know, was all that I needed. And I still, you know, like to come back. But in that meeting, you know, he pointed to something that was here right now. You know, I talk about it in the past. But in reality, he's just pointing to what's happening. And whatever that was, you know, it was beyond any concept. Well, before any concept. And it was so undeniable. Like, no one could change it.

No matter what concept you gave to it, you still couldn't change the fact of what it was. And what it was, you know, was just not changing either. So, it was like, okay, what more proof do I need? I don't need any more proof. And, you know, whatever I do, it still is there. And it's not changing. And it's, you know. So, yeah, that's my spiel. I've asked a number of people here and out there, you know, that Bobism and, you know, general thing of, yeah, what's wrong when you're not thinking about it? And every single person bar one person from here could do that.

They could, within a second, they could go to, okay, switch off the thinking. Yeah, nothing's wrong. There's nothing wrong in there. In there, you know, when the thinking was switched off. And they could all do it within a second. So, like, yeah, Tony. All right. Nothing right there. No, no, but have you, do you do that one? Like, what's wrong when you're not thinking about it? Yeah. I don't go along with it. Okay. Okay. Let me, yes. Tony is happy where he is and he doesn't really want. No need to. Yeah, you say you're not comments. So, I want to include people who are with us online and we actually didn't really have much time to include them before.

So, we have a lot of welcoming messages in the hearts to Bob seeing Bob is back. And thank you and lots of love and love from Colorado and love from other places. And Brett says, hi, Bob, cut and every elegant energy. No questions, only thoughts arising. That buyer between me, you, here, there, them, they. Slowly, I unpick this hem. The veil is the self, the ideal self, the shallow self, the learned self. For years, I try to peer behind the veil, beyond the billowing bravado of think being, of shallow seeing. There is nothing to gain here. No grasping near nor far. No craving will quicken comment.

No think, think seeking, hear harmony. Birds willowing. And we are. We are always, always. We are presence. No need to pull and threen. Grail, goal born within. So learning soul and silent. Watch grass, shoal greener. Wear tree shade, shiver quietly hither. See similar, speak familiar. Truth torn and thinked. Closer than a blink. Wasted days looking outward and beyond. The gem lie gleaming inwards all along. Many blessings. And it is ego speaking, says JB. At some point when someone was speaking. And Jane is going to rehearsal, sending love. Ros. So wonderful to see you both together. Warmest wishes. Oh yeah, the more wishes. Thank you so much for the pointers, beautiful people.

That's from Alvaro and Gioti. Great to see Bob enjoying this fiery discussion too. And Catherine says, We'll always appreciate the notice I saw the first time I visited Bob 17 years ago. Leave your concepts at the door. Beautiful. Bradley, words are not enough. Too much and too much at the same time. Beautiful. And Bradley also, who are you trying to convince Terry? I think he meant Tony. Because there is no Terry, only that's mine. I mean right here presently. The purity of Bob's non-conceptual pointing has been seen here today. Tristan says, The absolute includes all things, including uncertainty. And Brett fiercely frowns, tackle the shackle, don't heckle the cackle.

And Bradley says, Soaking has been proven the best way to remove the most stubborn stains. Beautiful. And Bradley says also, Point with shards of eyes. And that's it for the comments. And because we are over time now, Did you want to say something, Don? I can just say this. Have a look in that mirror. There's a mirror behind you. Have a look in it. Take that peep out of your mouth. What do you say? There's all sorts of things in the mirror. Just like thoughts coming into your head, coming into your mind. How many of them are real? There's not one of them. They're all images in the mirror.

And if the mirror wasn't there, could there be anything at all? There's a mirror. There's a mirror. There's always clear and empty. Have a look. And be and know what you are. Let the thoughts come and the thoughts will go. Because when you investigate, remember, there's only a piece of glass. It's got a back put on it. No back. There is nothing whatsoever. There's nothing. Everything reflects. Like all thoughts, feelings. There's no thoughts. No feelings or nothing. There's no mind. Because it's like the mirror. Things reflect in it. It's empty. No thing. And you are that. And whether you label it as conventional or Advaita or Dog Shen, or any other of the bullshit things.

You can't change it. None of it is real. It's the one essence that's about being shaped. Forming and experiencing is everything. And I'm not going to anyone. But I've seen Tony come here when he was way back in John De Reuter and other crap. So I know that. He's saying a lot now. Trying to tell other people what it is. Let them see for themselves. Yeah, let everyone see for themselves. That's a beautiful, beautiful way of putting it. We're not teaching anyone, really. We're not knowing anything. If anyone believes they know something from the books or from whatever, well, question that. But now I think it's the time to actually just wrap it up and invite everyone.

We have Gilbert's birthday is in a couple of days. And we would really, absolutely love to honor Gilbert for everything he's done since the beginning, since he knows Bob over 20 years. And the books he put together, the programs that are still, I think the Urban Guru Cafe is still online. You can see early interviews that he made for Bob. And the wonderful help, support and friendship, most of all friendship that they share for such a long time. And we have a nice ice cream cake and a nice punch chocolate cake. And we're going to invite everyone who can join us in Sofia to... Okay.

Thanks. And thank you, everyone. Thank you for your contribution and letting the old man bask in. It's still got the fighting. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.