Sailor bob, Kat and the nonduality group. Language, belief in words, concepts. 13 now 2022

I'm Nick. I'm Michael. Gina. Eamon. Tess. Chris. Tom. Jacinta. Shafi. Shafi. Savoja. Carl. Peter. Dean. Josh. And Mo. Take the listeners out. What we point to here, what they call in the scriptures or text, Advaita. Advaita translates as non-duality. Not two. One without a second. That is all there is. Presence awareness. Anyone who is not present. Anyone who is unaware. And you realize, no. I'm present. I'm here. I'm not unaware. Wouldn't that point out that you're already that? Because that is all there is. The one essence that patterns, shapes, forms, expresses and experiences and everything. And that's the great mantra. I am that. And what's the I am?

I am is the sense of presence. Each one of you knows I am. But I am Bill. I am Betty. I am Jane. I am John. Whatever label we put on it, we break it up into these beliefs that we are individuals. Separate entities. Persons. As I tell you in Isaiah, in the Bible. In the Bible. In the Bible. In the Bible. In the Bible. In the Bible. In the Bible. In the Bible. In the Bible. In the Bible. In the Bible. In the Bible. In the Bible. In the Bible. In the Bible. You are a person. You still are a no. You still know that I am, is God.

If you like to use that term. God. Everything. And you and I are things, that chairs the thing, the tables the thing, the sky is the thing. Everything is that. That's invader. The one without the second, so watch the problem. The problem is we've taken ourselves to be these? Persons. these individuals, these separate entities, but that needs to be investigated. And I tell you also that the false cannot stand up to investigation. So we've got these false concepts and beliefs. Have we investigated them? Really looked into them? When I look into it and investigate it, I can recognise and see clearly that I am not this body, I am not this mind, I am not this person or separate entity, an individual.

I am the absolute. Because I tell you in the great text of scriptures that there is only the absolute. What can be added to the absolute? Nothing whatsoever. What can be separated from the absolute? Nothing. It wouldn't be absolute if you get anything to it. It wouldn't be absolute if you can take anything away from it. But that sense of presence, the I am-ness, that's what the sense of presence is. It's that sense of presence of being present and aware right now. Not the person you're talking about, not the body, mind, the entity, but the presence itself. The awareness of presence. They call it Sat Chit Ananda Nama Rupa.

Sat is existence, Chit is consciousness, Ananda is loving to be. And the other two factors, Nama Rupa, Nama is the name we've been given, and Rupa is the form, the body-mind. And I tell you the body-mind, Nama Rupa, is Maya. It's illusion. It only appears to be so. Appearing means it's seemingly so. And that's what needs to be investigated. We take the seemingness, because it's been reinforced and we've never investigated, we take the seemingness to be real. But it's only appearing or seeming to be so. This means that you, I, and everything else is the great reality. And the Buddhists tell you that. The great reality is non-conceptual awareness.

It's that awareness without any concepts, without any thoughts, concepts, ideas or images. And Sat Chit Ananda's existence, you're existing right now, you're not unconscious, you're not unaware, and you're happy to be. So there it is. What is awareness? Awareness is the knowing that you are. That knowing translates through the thought, or the concept, I am. I am is that sense of being, being present and aware. So it's not a matter of becoming, or practising this or practising that, to become something. Try and negate your beingness right now. You call yourself a human being, believe in God or some higher power, you call it a supreme being or God.

Well take away that label supreme, take away that label human without any any labels to you. Are you unaware right now without any labels? Are you not being? You realise yes, I am being I can't negate that beingness, and do I need the labels, all the concepts. In the livingness, some of the words can become very useful but those also can be very self-destructive because the word tells me I'm unhappy, I'm fearful Nobody loves me or I'm not good enough. All these concepts and labels I put myself, all this psychological suffering comes up because of the belief in these words. I've got this continual conceptualising going on which is continually causing problems.

Have a look at these words and recognise how many words were you born with and you realise you weren't born with any words. You didn't have any words till you were about two, two and a half, might be a bit before if you were smarter or a bit later. But there was that period when there was no words. But you're still living, you're getting on alright without the word because you're still here aren't you and for the first couple of years before you learnt any words you didn't have any words. But you're still seeing, you were hearing, you were tasting, touching, smelling, the functioning was going on, the breathing, the heart beating, the life was there without any words.

Now have a look at these words. What are words? A word is a thing. Are the words the real? Well take the word water. Can you drink the word? Can you swim in it? Can you wash in it? Can you drown in it? You can't. The word fire. Can you heat yourself with it? Can you burn yourself? Can you cook yourself? Cook with it? You can't. Now all these words when you investigate them and remember what we said before the false cannot stand up to investigation. When you're looking into them and see the words not the real, what's this word I or me? Now we've added lots of other things to that.

I, that sense of presence, that I-ness. I am above the Australian, the good fella or not so good or I'm happy, I'm fearful, all the story that's been added onto it. And all this psychological suffering comes up because the fear, anxiety, stress, unhappiness, depression, jealousy, envy, all these psychological suffering comes up because of the words. We put words on it all. It's a word. It's not a thing that's our reality. It's what you're describing. What we believe to be the real. Not realising that description can never be the described. So what we're describing right now even is not a description. The word is not the real.

So we're describing something and using words, and taking the words to be real and causing this conceptual, image of this world and everything that's in it. Not realising what they tell us and statistics. It's a phenomenal manifestation. The definition of phenomena is another word. Phenomena. The definition of phenomena is that which appears to be. So this is a world and everything in it appears to be so. It appears to be real. But investigate it and you'll see it's not real. You're seeing right now. There is seeing going on. There is hearing. There is tasting, touching, smelling, feeling. All these words or concepts or labels we put on these sensations or feelings that come up.

What's a word? Well a word is just a sound isn't it? Noise coming out of the mouth here. Sensations. Sound. Which is then translated into word. But what's the sound? Sound's a vibration. And a vibration's a movement of energy. So these words are actually a movement of energy. Which are taken to be the thing. Rather than seeing. Taken to be the thing as words. As concepts. Since they're seen just as vibration. A movement of energy. It tells you in the Bible in the beginning was the word. That's when it all seemingly begins with the word. The word was with God. The word was God. So we've got this concept and idea that there is such a thing called God.

Which is just a word. All things were made by him. By the word. And have a look around you. That's the chair you're sitting on. That's the carpet on the floor. That's the tree. That's the flower. Everything is, we've put labels on, is the word. All things. The space, the sky, the seasons. All words. All things were made by him, by the word. There was nothing made that was made. And what have we done? We've taken the word to be real. Even the word God. To be something which put a concept or idea on. But there is only, what they tell you in the scriptures, there's only this label or thing they call God.

The one self. One Atman. One self. But we've got this idea, when they take this I am, that I am Bob or I am Bill. Or I am Jane or Jean. We've put the label we've been given, put it on it, and broken ourselves down from absolute into the pure, into the individual, the separate entity, the person. Now person is just another word. And when it comes from, look it up, it comes from persona. Ancient Latin persona meaning a mask. So when we believe we are this person, we've taken ourselves to be this conceptual image or mask. So we've broken ourselves down from the absolute into this separate entity, this individual.

And with that sense of separation, isn't it isolation? We've isolated ourselves, divided ourselves from the absolute. The totality. Where, as it says in the scriptures, everything is perfectly resolved. In the unborn mind, where it resolves itself. And understood. We've divided it. And separated ourselves. Into separate. And suffer accordingly. So now we are these seemingly so-called human beings. Which are having all these problems. And the problems can be seemingly real. The anxieties, the stresses, the guilt, the shame, remorse, the jealousy, the envy. All these words, concepts, which the energy of belief has been put into. And the definitions and meanings are put into them. And that causes all this psychological suffering to take place.

And be believed in. Now I am this separate entity, this individual. That believes in all these concepts. And I'm fearful. I'm unhappy. I'm angry. I'm depressed. I'm jealous. I'm envious. Violence. Addictive. All sorts of concepts right onto it. And as it's seemingly conceptualised, so it appears to be so. Wouldn't it be much better? To recognise that I am that non-duality. Absolute. One without a second. Pure presence awareness. Or pure being. Pure knowing. Pure being that love of being. Being or knowing the truth. Which they tell me in the scriptures. They say know the truth. And the truth will set you free. They're telling you you're in bondage.

Bound up. And you wouldn't need to be set free. If you didn't believe you were in bondage, would you? If you knew, know you are the absolute. And you are the pure awareness. Any one of you are unaware right now. And you know you're not unaware right now. So you must be aware. Know that. And that's the truth. What must you be free from? Well you'll be free from this conceptual image. This belief. That I am this individual. I am this person. I am this separate entity. And what they say and what they tell me. That there is one essence. There is one awareness. One awareness.

That's what I really am. Recognise it. In the recognition, the recognising it. Go back. And relapse into what I truly am. And that. That is all there is. They also tell you that this manifestation is transient. Transient means change. And it's constantly changing. Isn't it? Have a look. Recognise. That the same thoughts now you walked into this room with. The same sensations. The same feelings. Some of it might be there. But there's certainly a lot of it changed. Transient. We don't realise that. And we think it's static. They call it unfixated awareness. They say, when it goes like that. Be utterly awake. With the five senses wide open.

Five senses. Seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, thinking. Be open. And alert. So each and every one of them can be experienced. And be. We don't do that. Because we generally fixate on one. The feeling. The fear. The anxiety. The stress. The guilt. Even though the others are there. But they're being ignored. Fixated on one to the exclusion of all the others. And when you look on that. Fixating on the one sense. That's not truly living. It's only partially living. And when you're partially living. All this fear and insecurity and vulnerability and all the rest of it. Can raise its ugly head. And we focus into it.

And get latched onto certain parts of it. And become fearful, anxious, depressed, guilty, angry. So be utterly open with unfixated awareness. Instead of being partial. Open up to it all. So you're not only hearing. But you're seeing. Tasting, touching, smelling. Instead of being fixated on the one to the exclusion of the others. Whatever there comes up can be there and recognised. And gone with. And there's an all around sense of being and livingness comes in. Instead of being the isolated, static person. We've taken ourselves full of this fear. Or anxiety and stress and guilt. Fixated on it and struggling with it. Trying to become something.

But becoming is not being. Becoming implies something you haven't got yet. But if you do something about it you will become something. But don't they tell you it's being. It's not becoming, knowing and loving to be. It's being. Knowing and loving to be. You are the beingness. But we've closed off. Or closed ourselves off from it. And lived from that beingness. From that position of isolation. And isolation is insecurity. Separation. Vulnerability. We need to question it and look. When we say becoming is time bound. It's only being. You can't be anything other than being right now. So you'll never be a future time when you can become something.

Because have a look at this so called concept of time. Time as we believe, think it is, is past, present and future. Well have a look at that. Where's the past? Well isn't the past yesterday? Or last week? Or last year? Or even five minutes ago? Is that what's with you right now? Or are you present right now? Realise the actuality is I am that presence. Awareness. And that past. It needs to be recalled. Or we don't know anything about it at all. It's gone. And have a look at that. And can you recall everything that went on yesterday? Or what you were saying or thinking a couple of hours ago?

If you can recall it means it's still available. To be utilised right now. But if you can't recall it, it's gone for good. And what about the future? Well you can anticipate and imagine. After I leave here, I've got to go to Sophia and eat a big meal. Or a big fat pizza or something like that. So the future hasn't arrived. It can only be anticipated. And it's gone. And imagined. And if I'm not anticipating and imagining it, there's no such thing or concept there at all. But can this... Can I be taken away from this presence? This presence is the spontaneous actuality that's going on right now.

Isn't that so? Recognise it and see that is what you are. And it's always this... What they call omnipresence. Total presence. Omnipotence. Total power. And omniscience. Total intelligence. It's always this total immediacy. And they call that's another label for this God if you like. Omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience. The thing we believe and call God. A greater power. That's the problem. We put greater on it. But if it's absolute, what can be added to the absolute? Can't add anything to it. It wouldn't be absolutely good. What can you take away from it? Nothing. It wouldn't be absolute. So nothing can be taken away from it. Nothing can be added to it.

And you are the absolute. Because that's just another label. That's just another label for what we call this God if you like. Absolute. Great perfection. I tell you in Buddhism the great perfection is non-conceptual awareness. Awareness without any concepts. And when we learn words, what do we do? We put labels or concepts on them. And we take in all these words. We've got different concepts. And they are what is separating us. Separated by the words. Shakespeare told you that. He said there's nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it. Isn't that so? We're thinking this, thinking that. And it's either good, bad, pleasant, painful.

What's the way you think? And see it's always functioning dualistically in the pairs of opposites. So these are the words. And Nisargadatta tells you nothing can trouble you. Except in your own imagination. What's that word imagination? A word we take ourselves and say I imagine this, I imagine that. Break it down to image in. Imagine. Or image in means we're creating mental or conceptual images. images and taken the image to be real. You look in the mirror, there's a mirror at the back of the room there, have a look. What do you see in it? Don't you see reflections or images in? And that's all an image is, a reflection or an image.

All your imagination is, is reflecting or images. All these thoughts, feelings, emotions are images we're creating or putting the energy of belief in them and the reality. Taking it to be real, beating ourselves up with the word, with the concept. I just said the great perfection is non-conceptual awareness. What happens is that you're not aware of the reality. You're not aware of the reality. If I drop the concepts, fixate or attach to any of the concepts, instead of taking them aboard, leave them as there is. Wouldn't it be like asking myself what is wrong with right now if I don't think about it? Well, have a look.

What is wrong with right now if you don't think about it? Can you say it's good? Can you say it's bad? Can you say it's fearful or unhappy or depressing? If I'm not putting the energy of belief in the concept or the word on it, isn't it just as it is? Present, awareness, unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. Just as it is. Not as it was or will be, but just as is. And what does is denote? This immediacy, this presence. Not the future or not the past. Being is as is. Not was, but as. Was means it's past. As is as it is right now. Investigate that, have a close look, and see is there any time, or any place, or any space, are you ever separate and apart from this is-ness?

If it was, you've got to recall it. It's gone. If it hasn't happened yet, it will be. You've got to anticipate and imagine. What are you left with? Presence awareness. That's the great perfection. It's non-conceptual, ever-fresh. Presence awareness. The godliness of it, if you like to use that term. But I don't use that term because there are different concepts and different traditions of what they believe God to be and what God can do. But God is absolute. There's no you and God or me and God. There is this thing, if you like to call it, God. It's as if God is life. God is love.

If God is love, or God is love, love, then you know love, love must be God. Love must be the life. If you are the life, you must be that godliness. It's simple, it's straightforward, it's direct. It's immediate. And it's certainly non-conceptual. Easily recognised, seen through. When it's pointed to and you really look into it. For a long time, it wasn't understood or grasped or seen. But here, it's been recognised. It's been known for certain. And when the false comes up on it now, it's seen through pretty readily. And don't indulge in the past concepts and ideas anymore. Because they can cause a lot of unpleasant sensations.

A lot of insecurity. A lot of unability. A lot of unhappiness. Lai Weiwei said, why are you unhappy? He said, because of everything you say. Everything you think and everything you do is for yourself. And he says there isn't one. Have a look at that. This self you believe to be you, is not so. That's the so-called personal self. But the person is not reality. It's the Atman self. The one self. Be what you are. Not what you take yourself to be or believe yourself to be. The way you go. That's it. Nothing. Nothing. I just have a... Hi everyone who is online with us.

We have 20 people and we had internet interruptions. It dropped off a couple of times. So, sorry for that. It's the provider. And there is no questions. There are good morning messages, gratitude messages and no questions. Yeah, I noticed it dropping out a couple of times. Yeah. Yeah, that's the... What? The internet. You know, the... I will... Before I upload it on YouTube, I will... Put them together in the editor. But we lost few minutes of your spiel. I mean, we didn't. But people who were online with us. I'm sorry for that. And... Now we got the open forum for questions, comments, sharings, disputes. Anything that comes up.

Anything that comes strong. Anything that might be helpful for you to say out loud or for anyone in the room. Anything that works. Anything that... Just feel the energy and see if there is anything that comes up. Question? I'll just say thanks, Bob. And like I've heard the spiel so many times, but there's always something new. It's like there's something that came across today fresh. And it's almost like I know it's going to be said, but then it's like there is something very new in it as well. I don't know whether you said anything different, but it seems like it's going to be said. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, immersion's like it's a bit ... So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That's the way to listen, to always hear it fresh and new. Mm-hm. Because initially when people listen, and I can see it, I can see sometimes people who are here for the first time, they are not necessarily new to the topic. They may be open and just going with the flow straightaway, but sometimes there are people who are where I was myself and probably everyone on that sort of an esoteric type of a path where you know everything about chakras and star signs and all that.

And being in that realm of I know, you hear what Bob is saying. Oh yes, I know that. Oh, I know that one too. Oh, I agree with this one. Oh, this one I didn't hear. No, that might be bullshit. I'll reject it. So this is what initially the default mode network does. That's how we operate on default, the human pattern. And then as the guard of mind gets lower down a little bit, gets put down because you hear things repeatedly. So that idea that no, no, I didn't hear it so it must be bullshit. That one, oh no, I did hear it. So slowly narrative stops commenting and the less of the commentary going, the more, the more.

The message actually has the chance to reach the core, reach the heart. And that is nothing repetitive about it. In the heart, it is always just like, it's always the resonating, the coming home. That's, thank you for bringing it up. That's the way to listen. That's the shining example of how to hear it. And it is also a good reminder to pay attention. How is that mind? How is it operating when it is exposed to that message? How is it responding to it? Is it responding? Is it putting the guard down or just really knowing how the machinery functions, how it filters, rejects, accept, likes, doesn't like this is really interesting because no other machine you can actually know that intimately close.

And it is a fascinating journey to actually see how it operates because looking at it, it's an MR seeing how the automatic responses are preconditioned responses. Function in relation to absolutely anything that's happening, is just seeing it as an object in consciousness. So it automatically puts in the place where you are that open field of consciousness, watching the object, the mind. It is not I'm watching myself. Of course, in a certain perspective, I am the totality, so I am watching myself while I'm watching view cuts, everything. But in this particular pointer, it is really nice to just see response of the mind, not particularly fixate or pay attention, but just notice, just notice.

Because that's really liberating. You will see, when it sinks deeply, how automatic it is, and how mechanical it is, and how it really isn't you. Sometimes the voice speaks in the tone of your mom or your dad. Sometimes the narrative, which is very punitive or judgmental, it may be a voice of someone you know or not. But you can see how this is not really you speaking, how you are the knowing of what's happening. Or at least not exclusively you. I'm just really happy to accept this teaching totally. I don't think about it that much anymore. It's a joy out of just saying yes and nothing else.

Just moving on and exploring it all, just coming to terms with it, and having a look and seeing what it all means. It's a delightful thing, kind of like a child, you know, just waiting for it all to explode. Waiting for the present to be opened, the next thing to happen. It's a great place to be. The mind is hopeless at understanding anything. I don't understand one thing, not one thing at all. Not at all. And yet here we are. I trust my heart. I trust the love that I see and feel for all of you. You know, that's an experience of oneness, isn't it?

That's the exploration that I can... that I can bring to bear. Look at this guy here. He's fantastic, isn't he? Just in the receipt of everything that he is. Beautiful. As you all are, and as I am, together in one thing. It's exquisite, isn't it? Welcome home, everybody. Beautiful. And that's it, acceptance. Yeah. Yeah, that's a beautiful expression of that natural state in which whatever shows up, just yes, of course, you're one with life. If you weren't, you wouldn't say yes to whatever shows up. Yeah, rather than just simply being a victim of everything, sitting back and being punished, being punched around, trying to find your way through by grabbing that side of the coin or the other side, you know.

That's hopeless. There you work. That's it, Bob. We've done that long enough. Yeah, let's relieve ourselves of the burden of doing that. Why not right now just throw it all up in the air and just say, yeah, let the chips fall as they may. And that's where the excitement in life comes too, isn't it? You know, who would want to have one of their concepts be true? If one of my concepts was absolutely true, then the universe with all the wheels off would fall off the universe immediately, wouldn't they? And who would want that? And who would want to hold the universe to hold the universe dead in its tracks?

And the concept which we can't ever do. Hello again, I'm Gina. I'm new to all the Advaita, Neo-Advaita or whatever it's called these days. And something I was reading, well, actually, being on this journey of discovery, I learned that the language we use, the language we have, is not developed enough for us to actually describe accurately what Bob's pointing to. Because our language, which is set up with the dualism, you know, you can't avoid it. So even if you, as, you know, if you've got to that place where you understand what's happening, you can't even use language to describe it because there's no such language developed yet to describe it.

So we can only use words that are close to. Like you say, you're waiting for something to happen or I'm waiting for it to develop or to emerge or, you know, we're limited in the language that we've got where to say something, something as simple as it already is and we have to move out of the way or some word like that is the closest we can get. But even that's not the truth. So in my journey, I've been complicating it by, I've been, it's been thwarted with language. So I just thought it was really helpful to, I read it, somebody, somebody called Taft, wrote it and I read it and it really struck me that, you know, we just haven't developed the language yet to be able to, you know, describe what it is where it's happening.

I don't think we're ever going to be able to develop the language for it. That's right. Because language is inherently the problem, isn't it? And that's what I'm saying. Yeah, the words, labels and things. Well, we can do, I think. So if you... No, we develop new, I mean, we develop new concepts and ideas. Like, let's say when the Bible was written or scriptures that are two or three plus thousand years old, the descriptions they used then, when you modernise it, you can see what actually, what they were actually trying to say, but there wasn't the language we know now to describe that. Especially some of the scriptures in the book of John, like you're saying, in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God, and everything that was made was God, nothing was made without God.

And now when you look at, what do you call it, the quantum physics, they know this Word, which in the original language that that scripture was written in, in the Greek, it meant the concept. So in the beginning was the concept. I mean, that's beyond word. That's, you know, it's beyond word. And when you put that scripture and put that word in that scripture, you can see it's describing what quantum physics has discovered. That there was this wave and that's, you know, there is no solid thing. There was this wade and that, you know, the wave, and even back then, they found the closest word they could use was concept.

And I just think that we will get to language that will describe it eventually, but as yet, we haven't got there. And that's where people such as myself are having difficulty actually. And the description will never be a described anyway. No matter how good language. Tells you that. There's nothing in Sing Ming. The way is beyond language. There's no yesterday, no tomorrow, no today. It's prior to the language. But you're totally right. They are better and worse for you. For when you started out, I mean. Absolutely. You know, there are people who totally resonate with the language of Christianity. And they don't need non-duality language.

They will dig and look, follow the love of God, of God's presence within them, with them all the time. And they will arrive without much of the concepts. They may still believe in Jesus or have beliefs, but they will be resting in a natural state surrounded by that. And there are people who have yet different language of science. But it might not be so. There's many, many languages that you write are totally ununified. Because there is so many different machines that resonates with different style of pointing. And some language may be closer. Striking home poetry or music may be closer to reach your heart than plain pointing.

Who knows? Yeah. Sorry. I guess it's just, why do we need to talk about it? Like, aren't we swimming in the truth? Like, it's everywhere all the time. So then there's the... I mean, I think it's so obvious that we... Yeah, I think there's a kind of... What's the need around being able to find the words? Well, you're saying truth. What are you referring to when you say truth? I'm in this room. I'm in this room now. And it's all that now can be. But that doesn't mean anything to me. I've started out on this journey of... Doesn't mean anything to me either. Well, so I...

But for me, on my search, I need... I appreciate that. ...words to help me be pointed in that direction. And I'm saying that when I read that, that even the best pointer can't... There's no language for that, you know, for a description or for some kind of advice or some... There's no... There isn't the language being developed yet to try and make it simpler for somebody who's starting out to actually get it. To actually get on the first step of letting... Yeah, I get it. I'm just trying to say we... It is, you know. It's... I think it's so simple that you don't actually need words to find it.

Yeah. But what is so simple? Thank you. Keep it. I need some... To me, that was wonderful. I heard that. I really heard what you said beautifully and simply. And it can't be put in any simpler words than that, I don't think. It's just... And what actually happens is that when you hear the truth, it becomes a song or it becomes a poem. There's music there. There's something else that's happening. That's the only way you can do it, is describe the resonant process, I think. But don't be put off. Just keep saying that. That's wonderful. Well, that's just my experience. Yeah, of course. It is your experience.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm not so poetic as people like Tony and co. But... So I always think of things more analytically than that. And, you know, I understand that the words are the problem we got. You know, that is... It's our... It's our... It's... We split things up into two bits and then we talk about those two bits and we get confused about all sorts of things. And there are all sorts of people that give advice. Now, one bit of advice that always helped me was what The Course in Miracles said. The Course in Miracles said, nothing means anything. Okay? And it went on to say that, for example, if you don't believe this, everything in this room, through this window, whatever, means nothing and...

or the meaning that I add to it. Yeah? And then it goes on to say that it's not only when you look out, but when you look in, all these thoughts mean nothing either. And so, if that shuts the speaking up, what you get left is with this. And that's what words do, I think. That's what explanations do. That's what thinking about it and rummaging over all the various ways of... That's what that does. It just adds confusion and more and more and more and more. And we think, I want to stop. And that's what the trick is. Stopping. Stopping thinking. Stopping talking. Stopping investigating.

Stopping investigating all that. Yeah. Thanks. Well said. Thank you. But isn't that what self-enquiry is? Sorry, isn't that what self-enquiry is? To ask or observe thoughts and ask questions and... You know... If we didn't have language, maybe we wouldn't have these problems. I think... The language is causing a lot of the problems. I think... Pardon? I say it's the language that causes a lot of the problems. That's what I said. If we didn't have language, we wouldn't have these problems. Yeah. I think all these disciplines ask you to look for yourself. Not to chatter and to analyse and to work out. But to look for yourself.

Deeply. Look. Look within. Who am I? Yeah. Like that. But I think personally I really struggle with that too. Like you can't stop the mind. And so the mind can drive you crazy and trying to stop the mind can drive you crazy. And that's it as well. The mind is it. So rather than... It's okay for it to be there. I mean it's wanting to protect you. It's trying to plan for the future. It's trying to learn from the past. But for me personally, just accepting that that's part of it as well. Sometimes it will be noisy. Sometimes it will be unpleasant. Sometimes it's just annoying.

But it still is what is. It's just what is. What is. Yeah. Beautiful. Mm. Liv, do you want to say something, Bob? No? Liv, do you want to say something, then? Go on. The word is not the thing. Yeah. This is really simple. Like it's not really a problem with language. I don't see a problem with language at all because it's just not... It's a word. Bob talks about it beautifully in the spill. Take the word fire. Take the word water. You know. He goes into all that. Like the words aren't really a problem. They're just words. They're just words. They're just words. They're just words.

They're just words. They're just words. They're just words. They're just words. They're just words. It's not really a problem. It's the belief in them. I don't know. You just start to see, the words are like a vibrating pattern of energy like you say so clearly. It's sound. Sound is energy. But this chair is energy. Everything is energy. What's the difference between a word and a chair or a cat or a floor? It's the whole play of energy. Yeah. I don't know, sometimes it all collapses. You know, like the scene in The Matrix where there's the symbols, the green code. Everything just, the words, the objects, everything is just the code just buzzing around.

But something got you to that point. Oh, there's this really important word that I heard once. Am I joking? A question or a seeking or a pointing. It was the understanding or the realisation that it doesn't work that way and I can't resolve it with words or with figuring it out through that kind of methodology or system. Yeah, I think I may have miscommunicated what the thrust of my statement was all about. I'll leave it there until I know how to communicate it properly. But there was something that was said and I loved this. It was, I don't know if I got it correct, but nothing can trouble me except my own imagination.

And for example, I put telling myself I'm depressed, I feel this certain set of feelings which come from associated thoughts. Before thoughts, before words, there were no thoughts, therefore no symptoms of misery, anxiety, depression. And so before language, you know, we wouldn't have been lying there as little toddlers thinking I'm depressed or anything. So, is it true that a child would only feel those two basic inherent fears which is the fear of falling and loud noises and everything else they're just at peace and enjoying their experience of, you know, being attacked by, you know, thoughts that create feelings that then create concerns. Can I say something?

Yeah. Yeah. You always get the result of your mind, too. Mind is, mind is an extension, if you like, in limitation of, or in separation. It's a representative of everything in separation, if you like, or awareness, a representative of awareness. It's the image of awareness. It's not awareness itself, in a sense. But we have the capability through our mind to experience everything that the mind entertains. Instantaneously, so. And that's the problem. That's the problem in itself is that we can't find an answer through the circumscription of the mind. We have to release it at some point. Because the mind is all about, it's all about looking for answers.

And the answers are always dual. They're continually bifurcating on you, splitting up, splitting up. And you're always looking for answers. And you're always looking for answers. And you're always looking for answers. Splitting up, splitting up, splitting up. So you never get anywhere. You get to, all you get is the result of your own mind, which is questioning. Right? That's what mind does. It questions itself, questions the world, questions the universe. So, in that sense, it's perfect in as much that you're, you're getting exactly what you want, in mind. But being just a representative. I love what you said the other week, the very tool I'm using to try and discover it is the last thing I should be using.

Can you say it again? Yeah, you said to me, the very tool that I'm using to try and work this out is the last tool that I should be using. It's the point. It's the wrong tool for the job. Yeah. That's why I said one more thing. Yeah. And I'll pass it up. Lesson 108 in The Course in Miracles is, as I give and receiving a one in truth, that's a very good lesson because if you look at that, you see that as you give, you receive instantaneously, right? In the same measure. In other words, we're both experiencing the giving and receiving together. That's one thing.

Do you see the unity of that in the instant that you entertain it? You don't? Bob wants to say something. Everything and nothing. Yeah. Nothing is everything and everything is nothing. That's right. Yeah. So it's a good lesson. Yeah. It's all happening right in the moment of the conception of mind. Mind is just these thoughts anyway, a stream of thoughts. Yeah. There's nothing outside of that. Yeah. And it's self-fulfilling prophecy, if you like. Yeah. So as long as you remain in there, you've got to have a look at something else somehow in order to break free. And nobody knows how that happens. I don't understand how that happens, but it does.

It does happen. You only get dragged in. If you turn in the right direction, you get dragged in somehow. A little scruff on the neck, screaming backwards. But perhaps. I always used to say that you enter into this backwards because you're always doing it for the wrong reasons. And then suddenly something happens, and you're away. There's a quote ascribed to Francis of Assisi. He said, That which you seek is that which is doing the seeking, doing the looking. It's only one. Yeah, and I get that. It's how to be there. Sorry, I get that. I get what's been described and the best way anybody could communicate it.

Bob wants to say something. Instead of trying to be it, try and not be it. Yeah, good point. That's just me. Yeah. Embrace the paradox. The one who is trying to find it is the one who is seeking. But also, when you ask Dean, how did you arrive at that conclusion that everything is just falling, you know, just movement of energy? That is the question the mind asks, and it's a totally valid question for the mind. How do I get there? How do I get that? How do I understand that? Yeah. But the paradox is, that understanding is present, right here, right now. But the I who tries to grasp it, the I is imagined.

That I is the very veil which prevents that from shining forth. Yeah. So when you stop that I, meaning the narrative, the thinking, the relating, Bob has this question, what's wrong with right now if I don't think about it? Just see for one moment, what is wrong? Where is the depression? Where is the past? Where is everything? When you just, stop the thinking and just try not to be like he says. Mm-hmm. And this is it. This is natural state. Mm-hmm. But then the mind comes in and says, no, this is not it. Mm-hmm. This is too ordinary. This is too blunt. This is nothing.

It's not attractive. It's not pleasant. It's not enlightenment. Dean seemed excited when he was talking about, I don't feel an excitement. Mm-hmm. Well, because the mind is subtly still there. Mm-hmm. Oh, God, yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's good. That's good. That's good. That's good. That's good. That's good. That's good. That's good. That's good. That's good. Sorry. I mean, I came to this journey through pain, you know. You know, so. I'm in my four years on the bench, so to speak. Yeah, yeah. So, anyway, a few years ago, I had terrible shoulder injuries, which I was slow to do anything about.

Mm-hmm. And I couldn't sleep. So, I was quite delirious. I decided I couldn't lie down for longer than about an hour or two. Because my shoulders were hurting so much. So, I thought, well, meditating would be the next best option in terms of getting some rest. And so, I set myself up in the corner of my room on my meditate because I was more comfortable sitting up. So, sort of in desperation. And I wanted to, I said I would meditate and hopefully I would fall asleep. So, I sat up. So, I would kind of. Yeah. Because I was sleeping about an hour a night. You know, I'd go to bed at 12.

And at 1 o'clock, I would wake up in pain. You know. So, anyway. So, I sat in the corner of my room. Really not trying to meditate, but trying to sleep. You know. So, my goal was not to do the practice or to do correct meditation. The goal was to fall asleep. But I was in so much pain, I couldn't fall asleep. But any. But. And I had my, like, just a torrent of words about my situation, you know. Mm-hmm. But. But. After. Because this went on for, I couldn't get the treatment for my shoulders. Took about four or five months, you know, to get.

And I didn't, you know, anyway. It's a long story. I could probably have, if I was smart, I would have hurried that up. But I sat. So, I sat every night like this, trying to fall asleep. With these words, just every imaginable negative. But it's sometimes the shiningness of here and now. Being alive and being awake. And just was there, you know. In this pain, you know. And in, in the, even the words. Like, the words were just flowing. All the wrong words were there too. But I noticed, if you can hold this. Mm-hmm. I noticed that that shining awareness of lifefulness was still there.

Even though the words were shooting by. It was still, it was behind. It was like the, you know. So, it was still there. Yeah. And it sort of, somehow I saw. It was still there in those months of just in the. But it was in the pain and in the, in the wrong words. It was the opposite to the. Because I'd come from a Zen tradition. So, perfect meditation for, you know, years and years. But that, and I can really see it more clearly when in this pain and in the wrong, you know, effing. I was abusing the pain, you know. I was completely the wrong attitude, you know.

But, but in moments of that, actually, it was like the greatest teaching ever. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This, this here and now was, I was undeniably here, you know. And the pain went and stuff. Oh, the pain was, no. The pain was still there and the word was still there. So, that's what I meant by the swimming in the truth. The truth is the truth. Is the truth. Is the truth. It's, I didn't, I didn't understand. I mean, it took that extreme. I'm a pretty sort of stubborn, pig-headed person, you know. So, it took, but it took, it was the other way.

Instead of kind of getting all perfect and getting all the words right. getting everything right and doing the retreats it took the took actually the pain and and almost this i caught myself i caught the words i could because it was months of it and i was deliriously tired too so i wasn't in a healthy place i was in a really bad place it was interesting but i saw that the teaching came up present in that it was the other way around so you got a glimpse of it yeah yeah in those moments you know 3 30 in the morning trying to sleep but you're not living it now what is okay it's always is yeah it's not it's not like uh it's like the fable of the it's it's it is in spite of yourself it's got nothing to do you don't have to work it out that's what i think anyway that's my experience that's why i say it's my experience in this room again that i was just that was like the worst time of my life hi my name is shanti no um i mean in continuation of what you just said it's in intense pain and moment how do you get to that point where you know that that's not you physical mental emotional you know you're suffering so much so many things happening to you externally how do you get to that point where i can be still this is not me i can this will pass you know so because sometimes you don't have that faith that things are going to get better when things start frog bottom so it's it's and you plan so well you know like life is going to go so rosy so beautiful you know this is how it's and everything falls apart and and and everything like physical mental emotional and you go through that so long that that becomes like is this going to be me is this going to be my identity how do i move away from that and go to a higher perspective and see that you know i learn from it when it's prolonged you know it's it's really hard it's really hard to get to that point where i was still at 3 30 in the morning i try that but sometimes the situation outside is so overwhelming and consuming my experience from most of the time so i'm not i'm not saying it was sort of it's hard to say i didn't my experience was that was was overwhelming it was i did the words were negative but there that i could the the stills just i can't explain it but the the shimmering kind of nature of reality was there too you know it was there as well when i because i wasn't trying to think i wasn't trying to work it out i was just trying to get through the time and i i actually and there's no i don't have any advice either i'm not saying be in pain and so that's just my story you know and maybe there's something in that for someone you know can i just say something just just today when the two phone calls those two phones went off i got the giggles and growing up in my home if you got the giggles if my there was a lot of trauma and abuse i'd feel really guilty and i couldn't laugh but today you know as the phones went off I didn't feel guilty about laughing it just they just happen out of the blue and it's okay to have a little giggle along the way you know I said I sat on the sofa between 10 to 4 and it's I I slept one hour and half as well and the presence while I was experiencing pain and everything that you mentioned what was similar but the presence was too outside of the body to be able to do something about it or maintain it it's just too independent of the body and the mind the physical and psychological body I'm speaking to carpet and I don't know why I cannot increase my volume and this is a problem that I'm having few weeks I'm the biggest me in this sitting in this gathering beautiful sitting and I'm not proud of it I'm simply precise and honest thank you for nothing because the pain was so huge to me was so pronounced and so real it does feel so real that's why there is no prescription how to get there because that me that feels so real it will never get anywhere it is a phantom is imagine if they'll never get the truth the thing is what recognizes that me is not real it's not the me me never recognizes anything me is a construct made of thoughts memories concepts idea because that one is dead and that one is blind that one is in sentence is just it just feels it's a costume It feels like it is me.

It feels like I believe this is who I am. But that's just a belief, like Dean made this distinction. The words are not the problem, concepts are not the problem. The fact that they are being believed, that there is identification with them. So the recognition that this me, this suffering thing is not real, is not for the me. The I never recognizes anything. The recognition comes from that open space of consciousness, which when the I doesn't steal all of the attention, it already knows that. So it really, there is no prescription how to get there. There are descriptions, and if descriptions somehow move the heart, resonate, if description resonates, that trust makes, relaxes you a little bit.

Ah, that's how it is. And in that relaxation, spontaneous natural relaxation, some of that attention shifts away from that tight construct, that tight costume of constant relating. And that free attention is free. That attention is free, it is not bound. But I would like also to include people who are with us online. And Julia, British Julia says, The appearance... is baffling and beautiful. Yes, there is a possibility to see the world this way. Of course, if there is a lot of external challenges, and there is an intense suffering and fear and the uncertainty and depression, it is very, very hard to see that the appearance is baffling and beautiful.

But just rest assured that there is a way to see it. And if you persist in looking into it, you know, it means that you are able to see it. It means that you just deep down, you know, there is another way of looking at the world. There is another way of experiencing the world. Not through that interpreter that makes everything tight and personal and aching and painful. There is another way. So that's just a... That's not a hope, that's a certainty. Because there is enough people in this room who can state that with their lives. Look at Bob. And I'd like to include some other skills as...

It's always amazing for me to witness how, as you go further along on the path, how easy it becomes to let things go. To just accept things as they are, as they happen, and keep it moving. To not ask why and for what. So liberating. To just let it be. As is. Thank you Bob and Kat. How beautifully said. To just go along. Let go of the stories. Like... Col was mentioning before. Nothing has meaning. Nothing that ever happens to you, for you. No. This is just added story. Nothing means anything. Unless you believe it does. And that belief binds you, puts you into prison.

And like Yale says, just as you go along, it naturally, those meanings, those stories, those conclusions, are being discarded. They're being seen through. Ah, it's just another blah, blah, blah. And life is a mystery. You think you understand what or why? No, you don't understand anything. There's nothing to be understood. It's a mystery. It's a miracle. It's infinite amount of factors playing, and dancing, and nothing can be understood about it. Stories can be told. Many. But they're just stories. And then Jane says, Can Bob please talk on, in the beginning was the Word. The Word was God. So, God is the Word. Do you like to...

Yeah, well, when did you begin? When you were about a couple of years old, when you learnt words. You were living before that. But you didn't know anything about it. You were still alive. How could you say you were born, or anything at all, without the Word? And the same with Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, living in paradise. Everything was alright. But they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They learnt words. And I have Tanya. Tanya says, Good morning. When I look for the separate self, me, all I find is sensations, this body and thoughts. I can't find a self.

Could it be that simple? Yes. I can't find a self. Could it be that simple? Yes. And to keep looking until it is absolutely clear there is no me? Yes. All the me seems to be is a pattern of thoughts that have been believed in. But believed in by God, but believed in by who? Doubts and resistance appear to there being no ownership of the body. So, can you say something about this? Yes. You want to say something about this? Believed by who? It's a software. It's a program. The whole machinery is designed. And as I think Michael was saying, all that narrative is here to serve, is to help, to plan the future, to protect the body, to gain more pleasure, to put you on the ladder somewhere in the park.

And it is a software that does it, facilitates the whole thing by relating to the imagined self. And having the imagined self, having a story about the self, it can connect with other selves. That is how the program operates. So, who believes? Nobody. It's like you have the app on your phone. Is that app actually listening to what you say? The app translating? No. It's the app. It's mechanical. It's a software. It's a program. You see if there is anyone, if you find anyone, who believes that there is a self. If you don't, well, that's your answer. Keep looking. If you don't find... And I remember Bill, our friend who used to come to the meetings a lot.

He has this beautiful little story about the termites under the floor. He had a really, really nice and clear and funny way to explain things to be remembered forever. He was building a house and he looked for the termites. He didn't find any. And then he looked again and he didn't find any. And then he got the specialist and they looked together. They didn't find any. They sprayed just to be sure. There still weren't any termites. And eventually, he just shook his head and, the hell with that. I know there are no termites. Why do I have to keep looking? And then he relaxed and he never needed to look again.

And there still were no termites. There still is no self. You can look a hundred times if you need to, if you moved to, you're not doing it. There's still life moving you. But then at some point, it naturally relaxes. Do you look if there is any me, Bob? I don't think so. Do you keep checking if there is any me? No, no. It didn't cross my mind in years either. It's just too obvious. Like what are you looking for? There isn't any. It's certain. It's absolutely certain. And that's, as I said, the way away, it's just way you weren't happy. Because everything you say, everything you think, and everything you do is for yourself.

He says there isn't one. No personal self at all. Nonetheless, I'd be checking about it. Yeah. And Jane says, there are no answers in the mind. Absolutely. All this is, is created between me thought and the response to it. And the response to the other person place on, or thing thought. What Bob talks about is unfixated awareness. And Jane also says, the I or me narrative is always naming and claiming. Yeah. That's nice beautiful thing Bob says. Watch the mind. See how it works. See how it operates. Learn about the machinery. While doing so, you're free. Yes, Jane? Did I get that correct? When the person said, retaining, well, these are my words.

So retaining the self is like keeping an app to assist you to navigate life and communicate with others. So we're not trying to get rid of self. We don't have other choice. No, that's wrong. This is what I mean by communicating to find out things. Like, you know, that would be a question, you know. Yes. Is it about getting rid of the self? No. But you can't get rid of and... No. There is no you to get rid or to gain or to discard. None of that can be done. Yeah. There is nothing to do. It's only plain recognition. Those softwares may be helpful. Yeah.

Leave them all as they are. Yeah. Well, that helps me understand more about what the whole purpose of it is rather than trying to deny it exists or rub it out of existence or... Yes. It's like, you know, you can't get rid of it or you can't get rid of it or you can't get rid of it or you can't get rid of it or you can't get rid of it or you can't get rid of it or... Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yes. So thank you to whoever that was that said that. Hmm. Thank you. I actually didn't get there yet so I'll actually read through and now we have Ram who says, there are certain languages like Sanskrit that the words that point perhaps more succinctly at reality and these words that almost untranslatable in English but even those words can speak.

still only point but at what try to grasp this is a quote from Nisargadatta try to grasp it with the concept and you fail and you are bound to fail says Nisargadatta and Bob usually finish the concept because it is the non conceptual awareness Kathy says the mind creates the abyss and heart crosses it I love that quote from Nisargadatta beautiful thank you Kathy and Zulma says getting rid of it is the belief that there is someone to achieve yes yes you can't gain it can't lose it because there is no you and see this is another paradox of language we say there is no self not to deny because the next thing we say oh we go to Sofia have a cake or whatever it's yeah there is a cake today so whoever want to come to Sofia's Peter made a cake a Polish cheesecake so it isn't really about you know denying the fact that there is a sense of location in the body that would be bullshit of course there is a sense you know the sensations are here I can't feel the sensations in Bob's body well I can feel it in the fingers but not in the system yeah so that's functional sort of and even in the language yeah I go I walk I feel it's functional we don't deny that there is there is so usefulness so the analogy of enough is really helpful to make him separate yeah yes it is it is that's see watching the mind when you see how it operates when you see the old script that even like you know we don't dig into bringing out childhood traumas and regurgitate the victim story but you will see sometimes when those scripts just play out when you get emotionally dysregulated oh yes and it just shows itself off how that mind has been conditioned to arrive that that responses and that's fascinating because once you watch you free you are the consciousness in which it unfolds and shows itself yeah yeah right helps frame it in context because you wouldn't look at your phone app and give it a personality yes it's just it's just functional is doing this job absolutely am i diminished in some way by having this pattern my I would suggest not yeah yeah yeah yeah It's like if I cut my right arm off, for example, am I diminished?

Okay, so which eye are you talking about? I was referring to the eye who I think I am. Yeah, that is totally diminished by my thinking, yes. I think they're both one and the same thing, really, that in the end run. Because the eye that you think you are is just awareness in separation or in limitation. But it's still awareness, isn't it? Just one thing. If you chop off your right arm, you're still you, aren't you? Have you been diminished in any way? You're still there, aren't you? Isn't there a sense of self that's whole still? If I chop off your right arm or chop off your right leg or remove this and that, whatever, you're still there in your entirety, aren't you?

Uh-huh. And that's getting at who you really are. Yeah. The same as... The same as... The same as... Appropriate to... That sort of questioning can be appropriate to your conditioned responses to things. Even though you have a conditioned response, are you in any way altered by that? Changed or diminished or whatever? And the answer's got to be no. Yeah. Yeah, there's one practice that might help others that I've been doing recently is, like, do you know what the next sound is going to be? Do you have any idea what the next sound that you're going to hear is going to be? Or the next word.

Or the next... So there's something that's, like, there that's silent for the sound to come in. Yeah. And it's the same with the thought. I've no idea what that next thought's going to be. But something is there, like something empty that comes into it. And as I think Dean was saying, it's a belief that grabs onto it that makes it into something. So just, like, waiting for a sound. Uh-huh. Now wait for a thought. Mm. And you've got thoughts of I, that's just a thought. That's just another thought. So what is there that's waiting for that thought? And you can't put that into words. You just...

That's the I that I am, really am. Yeah, but... Yeah, but it's even before saying that. So you just wait. That's it when you just wait. Mm. That's beautiful. Beautiful spin. I love when Bob asks this question, what's your next thought going to be? And it just leaves you baffled because you don't know. But sound, it's a nice spin on it. What's the next sound? Because that is actually something that is really... We know that. ...grounding you in a very, very present because you have to open other senses. Not just exclusively focusing the thinking, but also open up to the sounds, you know, the tram passing or the car or the bird or whatever.

So it's a really nice, nice little spin. Thank you for that. And I have a question. Oh, no, I have a word from Tanya. She says, thank you, Bob and Kat. Definitely, I'm not doing the looking. There is a movement to look. I can see how the looking will drop away all by itself. So grateful for the pointers. No one is speaking, thinking, feeling, doing or looking, investigating. That is seen. Wonderful. Wonderful. And on that note, we are over time. And thank you, everyone. Thanks. Thank you. Thanks, everyone. Thanks, Bob and Kat. Thank you.