Sailor Bob, Kat, group. Nonduality. Who would believe it today? 27/03/2022

Cliff, Ross, Jane, Lockie, Dan, Cater, David, Dean. And Jacinta is passing through and we're going to give it up to Bob now. Okay, a couple of UVs here so we'll go through the same old spills, which most of you have heard a million times, just to give you an idea of what it's all about. We don't teach you anything here and we don't tell you. What we do is point toward and ask you to look and where we're pointing to, to see for yourself. So what you don't believe or what you've been told, there is nobody that can teach you anything. Nobody that can tell you anything.

Because what we talk about here is what they call non-duality. One without a second, not two. So it's only the one who is there to tell who and what is there to tell. Nothing at all. To put it, I'm not speaking to anybody. I'm not speaking to any mind. I'm not speaking to the body-mind entity you believe yourself to be. I'm speaking to that I am, that I am. And that I am is the sense of presence. It expresses through your mind. It expresses that thought, I am. Just to this, nothing else. Because that is all there is. And what we're pointing to is not you.

If you look in all the ancient texts or scriptures, you'll see it's the base of them all. So it's all pointed in different ways and there are different takes on it. And that's where the confusion comes into it. Because one is different than that. It takes the rhythm. Non-duality, what they call non-duality, means not two. One without a second. One without the other. So if that's shown, then it says it's all one. There is only one essence. It's patterning, shaping, forming, expressing and experiencing through everything. And isn't that the great mantra, I am that? And innately you know that. Because you say, that's the chair.

That's the room you're sitting in. That's the space in the room. That's the tree. That's the flower. Everything is that. Which we discriminate with the word. We put all labels on it. Take it to mean other than that. We separate it in the word. Now, how many words are we born with? Maybe a birth. So you didn't have any words. Every word you've ever spoken, or ever liked us to speak, has been picked up along the way. And picked it up. And so the word, when you look at it, is not the real. Take the word water. Try and drink the word. Swim in the word.

Wash in the word. Or drown in the word. You can't. Does the word fire burn your mouth when you speak it? Can you cook with the word? Can you heat yourself with it? You can't. So when you investigate this word, I or me, and you've taken yourself to believe that this is what you are, maybe when you investigate it, you'll see it in a different light. The word I is just that sense of presence. The awareness of being present, which is with you right now. Being translated into the thought, I am. I am is the primary thought. You didn't have any words when you were born.

It was in the first couple of years of your life. And you learnt words from your parents, when the parents passed it in round you. Told you you were little Johnny, or little Mary, or little Billy, whatever you like. And you've translated that when you've learnt to learn it like I and me, that I am little Johnny or little Billy. We've taken ourselves to be this person. This separate entity. This individual. Are you the person? Where does that word person come from? You look in and realise it came from the ancient Latin persona. The mask. So we've got this conceptual mask. We're hiding ourselves behind this mask of concepts we believe in.

That I am Bob, the Australian, the good fella, with all these labels on him. Not so good. The word is not the real. And if you didn't learn any words for the first couple of years of your life, you were functioning without the word. What does that tell you? Doesn't it tell you you were prior to the mind? You were for the words, for the mind. That's all that mind is, is word. What's that word? Word is sound. What's that sound? What's sound? A vibration. And a vibration is movement of energy. There is no such thing as mind, apart from thought. I thought. If you were the thought, I am, you'd be frightened to lose it every night.

You'd be in sleep, it'd be the end of you. But you give it up quite easily, quite happily give it up when you go to sleep. Pointing out that you're not the word. You're not. Hinduism, they call it Satyajitanda. Existence, consciousness, bliss. By putting that as being, knowing and loving to be. We'll investigate that and see. Are you existing right now? You are. Are you conscious? Yes. Are you happy to be? You wouldn't be dead right now, would you? Rather be. So you are that existence already. It's already so. So what's the search for? I think the search has become the problem. Because the search is the belief that you are separate from that.

And you've got to become that. You've got to realise that. Or recognise it. Set out on our search. And that takes us into all sorts of things. This or that. Not real. And that's the great mantra. I am that. And innately, you already know that because you say that's the chair I'm sitting in. That's the room I'm in. That's the space that's in the room. Everything is that. Which we put words on. More words on to discriminate it from that. Separate the that from that. So we say here, Recognise. Recognise or start from the fact that you are already that. And you've always and ever been that.

Start from any other place and try to become something. It will not happen. Because becoming is not being. It implies a future time. And when you investigate time, you'll see that time is a fiction also. You can never become something. But try and negate this beingness. Are you being right now? Yes. You can't say I'm not so I must be. But we call ourselves a human being. And if you believe in God, you'll call God the Supreme Being. What happens if you take that word human off? And take the word supreme off? Try and separate the beingness right now. That you are. Try and tell yourself I am not.

You can tell yourself I am not a million times. But the very fact that you're able to say it implies that you're there. You already are that. Always have been and always will be. But we've lost sight of it. When we take on this belief we are the person. The separate entity. The individual. And we don't take that on because we've learnt words. Now, you didn't pick up any words as I've said before. I've taught you about two, two and a half. The capacity of reasoning talent. But you were functioning quite well without the word. What you are. What are you without the word? Existing.

Being right now. You're being right now and you're knowing right now. And you're loving to be. So you already are that. No becoming. What will be. What is spontaneously in this ever fresh what I call for one of the better terms is the presence awareness. Anybody who is unaware right now will say no. Anyone who is not present right now. Not present. Is the awareness you're knowing right now is it yesterday's awareness? Is it tomorrow's awareness? Or is it that awareness that's with you right now? A pure being knowing and loving to be. So you are already that. On the problem of becoming. And got ourselves into all sorts of conceptual trouble.

Because we learnt words of I am Bob. The good boy or the not so good or I'm unhappy or I'm fearful or I'm anxious. And the worst one we put on ourselves was after all I'm only human. We put ourselves and put all these labels on us. All our psychological suffering comes about in the belief we are a separate entity. It's only me that can be unhappy. Only me can be fearful. Only me that can be angry. Is the cause of all my psychological suffering. And the effects are the fear, the anger, the depression, the guilt, the despair, the unhappiness. They're all psychological suffering. They're the cause of psychological suffering.

Me. The belief in me. And isn't that what so called karma is? Cause and effect. If I see that me is the cause and ask myself the simple question Can there be effect? If I'm not relating to a cause? And you don't have to be a rogue scholar to work that out either. If you're not relating to a cause where can the effect lay? So you can be rid of all the psychological suffering. And the recognition, recognising that you are not this person. You're not this separate entity or individual. You're not this mask of concepts or ideas. See how it all functions in your life.

Something comes up and you like it. How do you know? I've had this before. Things go away. We want to keep the good things we like. We don't want the good things to go away. Not realising this livingness is transient. It's constantly changing. Your mind's constantly changing right now. It's transient. So we don't want things to go. Not realising that no matter how much you love them, how much you want to keep them there, it's going to change because it's transient. And there are thousands of cells going in your body right now and being replaced. You know that but you don't remember it. Don't take any notice of it.

The good things, how much you love them, how much you want to keep them there, are going to move on. We don't want them to go so what do you do? We resist it. We try to keep it there by resisting it. And realising that any resistance you are in, you are in conflict. And any conflict you are in makes you unhappy. Uneasy. Another word for uneasiness is disease. So there's resistance, conflict and disease going on with us all the time. Something comes up that I like. But that I don't like. I was with a light before we were trying to live here. I don't like.

Oh, I've got this idea that that's bad. I'm overthinking that. I've got to get rid of it. So what do we do? We try to force that one out. Better try to keep it there. Now we try to force it out. So we're in conflict again. Again, resistance, conflict and disease. This is where life consists of. All because of this belief that we've taken on that we are this person. That we are this separate entity. We are this individual. What happens if you recognise, investigate and see that you're not separate? You are this one essence. This one life that's patently shaping for me. Experiencing and expressing it as everything.

What's going to happen to all the psychological suffering then? I tell you in the scriptures, know the truth. And the truth will set you free. What have you got to be free from? The belief that you are separate. Because that's the belief we've taken on. And our parents and schools and everybody else have reinforced it. And we've reinforced it ourselves all the time. Know the truth and the truth will set you free. So investigate it. And see, recognise that the false cannot stand up to investigation. Know the truth by investigating the false. All these false concepts and ideas come up which we believe are true.

But when you question your belief, is the belief the actual? Well have a look, investigate it. And see if it's the actual or not. And then look up your dictionary definition of belief. And the definition of belief is an unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason. Which means we haven't reasoned it out. We haven't worked it out in the mind. We've taken it for granted. And we've taken on all these beliefs for it's according to. For it's only me that can be unhappy. It's only me that can be fearful. Only me that can be anxious or depressed. So me is the core. The core of all my psychological suffering.

Is, is a word. A concept. An idea. Great perfection. Conceptual awareness. They call it perfection. What can you add to the perfect? Nothing. It wouldn't be perfect. What can you take away from the perfect? Nothing. It wouldn't be perfect. And that's the great perfection. Or, the other way they put it is the absolute. What can you add to the absolute? Nothing. It wouldn't be absolute. What can you take away? It wouldn't be absolute. Already, this absolute. Nothing to be added to. Nothing to be taken away. Question that and have a look. Are you this body? Are you this mind? We believe it's all. To be so, as I said, a belief is not the truth.

The definition of belief is an unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason. Acceptance of an alleged fact without positive knowledge or proof. When you put your belief to the test, they won't stand up. Question the beliefs and really look into them. They'll fall apart. You believe in so many things. Have a look at them. Many things you believed in when you investigated, you'll see they fall apart. Go down to the ocean, I say, get me my bucket of blue water out on the sea. You say, don't be an idiot. Because you go down to the ocean, you know the sea's not blue. But it appears to be blue.

We've taken it to be blue. But when you question it, you see it's not so. And who would believe it today? And when people stood on the shore years ago, look out where the sea and sky met, they were told, don't go up there, you'll fall off the edge of the earth. Because it looks like the edge of the earth, but then you see they're arriving. Who would believe that today? The blue sky, you go outside on a clear day, there's a blue canopy seemingly over the sky. Go up 30,000 to 40,000 feet in a plane, where's the blueness? It's not there. It's always further out.

A rainbow. You go outside on a misty day, you'll see the sun shining through the mist. There appears to be colours in the sky. There are no colours in the sky at all. I've got a crystal in that window over there. When the sun shines around to the west, it'll shine through that crystal, it'll hit up on the wall, all sorts of colours will be on the wall. Try and grab one of the colours out of it. So when you look into a lot of these things, investigate these things we believe to be so, you'll see they're not so. If you isn't so, know the truth, the truth will set you free.

When you investigate, you're free of all these beliefs. It's that sense of presence, the knowing that you are, that translates through the mind as the thought I am. It's that sense of presence, that sense of being, that pre-sense, prior to the senses, prior to the foreword, put any labels on the senses, this is good or this is bad, or feeling this or tasting that or smelling that. Pre-sense. It's the immediacy. Time is a mental concept when you investigate. Is there a past if you don't think about it? Well, have a look at that. You'll realise there's no such thing as a past unless I'm thinking about it.

As Shakespeare told you four or five hundred years ago, he says there's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. Nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so. It's what we think about these things that are making it seemly good or bad. So I've got an intelligence that says nothing can trouble you except in your own imagination. Look at that. Look at that word imagination and break it down to image in, imagine, and realise that's what we're doing. We're creating these mental or conceptual images and taking them to be real. Look in a mirror. What do you see in a mirror? You'll see images or reflections.

You can't say they're not there. You've got the mirror at the end of the room. Have a look at it. What do you see? Reflections. You can't say they're not there. You look up at the mirror and try and grab a reflection out of the mirror. You can't. You can't say they are there. You can't say it is or it is not. That's the same with this manifestation. You can't say it really is or is not. It appears to be so. And they call it a phenomenal manifestation. And the definition of phenomenal is that which appears to be. It's only seemingly so. And they say that the phenomenal manifestation is Maya.

It's illusion. It's only seemingly to be real. It's not real at all. The real is that life essence that you are right now. I told you years ago, I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life. People thought he was talking about himself. He wasn't. He was talking about that sense of presence that expresses or translates through your mind as that thought I am. That's the way to go. Stick with that. Find out. Follow it through. That's the way. That's the truth. That is the life. And recognise yourself. You are. You are not the mind. You are not the person. Have a look at this idea that you are the body.

Don't just say my body. Don't just say my house, my car, my coat, my hat. You know damn well you are not the car, the coat, or the hat, or the house. Maybe you are not the body either. When you investigate. When you investigate you will see that's so. What's this body made up of? You realise it's made up of elements. Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Space. Just like the elements around you right now. Well if you think you are separate, separate yourself from the air. Stop breathing. You'll see how long you would last without an element. Take the water out of your body. Drink it water.

Your body is 60% water. You wouldn't last too long. Take the fire, the body temperature. You'll see you get hyperthermia and die. Get off the Earth if you can. Get out of space. You realise you can't. And what are all those elements? They've all been broken down into subatomic particles and into pure energy. So all this body is is a vibrating pattern of energy. Who's mind is it? Who's the me that owns the mind? And is there such a thing? You can't show me a thing called mind. And is there such a thing as mind? Because there is no such thing as mind apart from thought.

Mind is thought, which particular thought it could be. You'd read that primary thought, the I-thought. And if you were that I-thought, you'd be frightened to lose your sight of it. And you'd be able to give it up every night when you go to sleep. So it means you're not really too concerned with it at all. So what's that? What is thought? What is thought? Well isn't it realised thought's a vibration? A movement of energy, a concept. The great perfection is non-conceptual awareness. Awareness without any labels. Without any concepts. You see the answer to that is all this conceptualising that's going on, this seeking. That's causing all our problems.

So if you're not the body, you are not the mind, what must you be? Aren't you that life that's animating, patting, shaping, forming, expressing as its body? And that's what I've told you. I am the way. I am the truth. I am the life. It's that sense of presence, that I am-ness, that is the life of you. There is no body that lives a life. Life itself lives on life. And out of life, more life comes. Life cannot know death. Now this body is transient like everything else. It's constantly changing right now. That pattern, it's a corpse without the life in it. But before it rots and breaks down, it's still got the eyes, still got the ears, still got the heart, the lungs, the sinews, the nerves, all the organs are still there.

But what good are they to it without the life? What would you realise from that? That you must be not the body, the body's finished. You must be the life. The body that animates and expresses through it. The power, the intelligence energy that is the life. Good analogy for it's just like a computer. You've got a computer with all that information, some amazing information in it. If the power's not turned on, what good is it to you? So the same if the life's not in this body, the body's no good to you at all. It's finished. The computer's no good without that power in it.

So what does that put you? It must be the life essence itself, that power. If you like to use the term, the godliness of it. In the Bible, in the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, the Word was God. That's all that God is, is a Word, a label. All things were made by Him, by the Word. And there was nothing made that was made. Isn't that a fact? All these things around you have got words or labels on them. The Word's not the real. It's all appearing. You realise the basic screen on which everything appears is space. You're sitting in space right now, appearing in space.

Try and grasp the space. Has it got any centre? Has it got any circumference? Can you say there's an inside to it and an outside of it? You can't. Does it have any beginning? There's no beginning. No concepts at all, nothing at all. It's no thing. Now realise that you and I and everything else in this manifestation are things. The tree's a thing and the flower's a thing and this room's a thing, the space in the room is a thing. Every pattern, shape and form appearing in space, which is no thing. And some thing come from no thing. So it's all no thing appearing as some thing.

We've taken this appearance on this thing, which we call this body-mind, to be real. And all the other things around us to be the one essence, but a pattern, shape and form that experiences and expresses everything. And you are that. No thing. What are you going to be bothered by? It becomes something which separates yourself. And that sense of separation is not the reality. Start from the fact that you already are that. Keep relaxing into it. When you relax into it, settle into it, it becomes clear and obvious what you are. Experiencing and expressing as everything. I am that essence. I am that godliness. I am that absolute.

Break ourselves up into patterns, shapes and forms, not realising that we think bad are words. That's the way the thought works. The thought functions and the pairs of opposites, good and bad. But you don't realise it's the one essence. When it's good and bad, it's not two things. It's two ends of the one stick. So when we see the good, we want the good and we don't want the bad. So we try and push out the bad, push out the opposite and keep the good. But it doesn't work. Because it's not divided, it's not separate. Leave it as it is and it'll move around. From the bad it'll come back to the good again.

Just the same as the earth rolling around the sun. Seasons coming and going. Tides coming in and out. Planets forming, imploding, exploding. It's breathing you. It's beating your heart. It's growing your hair and your fingernails, replacing cells in your body. It's living you. It's the one essence that's happening, shaping, forming and expressing as everything. You are already that. No need to become because imploding, becoming and bloat lies with future time. And look at this concept of time. And see that's a concept. Also, seemingly has a beginning. But when does now begin? Well try and grasp it right now. And realise as you're saying it's right now, it's already finished and starting again.

It's got no duration. No time. So time itself is a mental concept. No beginning. But you'll say I was in the past. Say well try and live yesterday. Try and live last week. Try and live a moment ago. You'll realise you can't go back and live yesterday or last week or last year. You can recall it. But you can't go back and live it. And you can't tell me what you thought of a minute ago now unless you recall it. If you're not recalling it, it's gone for good. So you see, past is just a, what they call the past is just a recollection of things.

And future is anticipation and imagination. You can't tell me what you'll live when you finish this meeting. You've got to have a concept or idea which you can't do. But you won't know until you're really doing it. So anticipation and imagination implies a future time. So time is spontaneous. When does now begin? Beginning right now. And that's eternity. We think of time as being a million years ago or something like that, but it had a beginning. But anything that has a beginning will have an end. We ask this now moment. As it's spontaneous, as it's beginning, it's always ending. No duration to it whatsoever. So you can get rid of that concept or idea of time.

Those things need to be investigated and see for yourself. Nobody, nobody can ever give it to you. Because you, the people that think they are things, some thing, they're separate entities. How can something that believes they're separate give anything to anything else? You can't. The speaking of it, if you've spoken about it, might resonate with somebody and it does with a lot of you, they've heard it before and resonate with it and recognise it, can be recognised. But nobody is going to impart it to you or give it to you. It'll be that natural recognition or resonation that'll bring you to it. They call it a cognising emptiness.

We think we cognise the emptiness, we think we know the emptiness. But we don't. It's the emptiness, the fuse with that intelligence energy is the cognising itself. And they made the statement then that emptiness is form. They turned it round the other way and said the form can be nothing other than the emptiness. So it's that known thing that patterns, shapes and forms into the appearance and forms and seems real. But it's emptiness. It's the cognising emptiness that's doing everything. So it's just like a dream. And the Sargata tells you that also. He says, realise you are dreaming, you dream you call the world. And he says stop looking four ways out.

And that's what we're doing, we're trying to get out of this dream. Not realising that it is a dream. He says the dream is not your concern. Your concern is you love one part of the dream and not the other. He says love all of it or none of it. Take a stand anywhere. Love all of it or none of it. And won't have a bar of it anyway. And the rest will be done for you. That's the beauty of it. The rest will be done for you by the same life essence that brought you into the dream. That's lived you and brought you into it.

Where did you begin? You began at birth. You can't remember your birth. Well how did you begin? How did you come about? Well go back as far as your father and your mother. Those two vibrating patterns. Those two patterns of intelligence energy. Go back further than that if you want to look into it, investigate. Remember the false won't stand up to an investigation. Have a look at that life essence. That pattern shape and form of your father. That intelligence energy. See that it's made up of that life itself. In that pattern shape and form. Through the breath, the prana and the food he's eating. In that pattern enabled.

Through the functions going on. A little microscopic particle called a sperm to form. Your son can't see with his naked eye. But that sperm is the fusion of intelligence. It knew what to do. And the same life essence in your mother enabled in that pattern. Another microscopic particle called an egg or an ovum to form in that pattern. That ovum attached itself to all the uterus. It knew what to do. It's a fusion with intelligence. And when those two came together. The sperm swam to the ovum. It knew what to do. And the ovum tested all the uterus. When those two came together. The life essence in those two doubled those cells.

Doubled it again. Formed the little embryo, the little fetus. Which is what you are today. What were you doing about it then? If you think you're running on the show. You realise you weren't doing anything at all about it. But the life that was in it. Was knowing what to do. And that's caused all these things. The language, the words to come about. The thought, the thinking. And it needs something to vibrate and express through. So it's this body. Body-mind. It needs something to express through. And that same life essence forms the body. And it needs something to express through. With all the cells and the organs.

And the brain in it. If that wasn't in it. It couldn't express anything. So everything is suffused with that intelligence energy. What I call, what is a better term, intelligence energy. I don't use the term God. Because you can get confused with that term. Because in each tradition. They've got a different idea or concept of what they believe God to be. And. What's the name? Hinduism. There's a thousand names for Vishu. A thousand names for God. Hebrews, Sahih, Rarah, Israel. The Lord thy God is one God. There is none other. The Muslims say there is no God but God. Allah is his name. Christianity, that is Father, Son, the Holy Ghost.

Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Omniscience. Buddhism. God is the one essence. It's non-conceptual, ever fresh. Great perfection. Ever fresh presence, awareness. All different terms for this thing called God. It's just another word or another label. In the beginning was the word. And have a look at that. See that analogy, how that is. Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, Paradise. What do they do? They ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They learnt words. When they learnt words they kicked out of Paradise. And that's what we've heard. So you see it's all caused, nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

It's all caused by these words. Now the words can be very useful. They also tell you they're this, that and the other. They're self-destructive. Because the word works both ways. It can be useful, but it can be self-destructive. So it doesn't mean to say you don't have to learn words. But you learn the words and know which words to utilise. Because words can be very useful, but they can also be self-destructive. Because they divide into pairs of opposites. That's what we point to here. And ask you to look along those lines. And see for yourself. And as you know, some of you here have got a good taste of it.

And can express it beautifully. Others might have doubts or questions. And if you're here for the first time, or the first time you looked into it, have a look and see if any of it resonates. That's all you need to know. If it resonates, well, go for it. If it doesn't, look somewhere else. So away you go. Thank you. I don't really have any questions from anyone online, apart from complaints about the long volume. But you've expected it, haven't you? They couldn't hear most of them. They couldn't hear? People online. Yeah, you could hear here, but people online couldn't. Yes, so now I think you girls are rushing to go home early, right?

Would you like to ask your questions or do you like comments? I don't have a question, but I do need it for it, so... Yes, so we just put you on the spot first. And, yeah, whenever you need to leave, you need to leave. I just wanted to ask for some more clarity. I think I struggled to... The points about emptiness and form, I feel like it went... It didn't land and I could feel that I wanted to... get more from what you were saying about emptiness being form and form being emptiness. So I just wanted a bit more clarity on that point, if that's okay.

I'm a thing. All this manifestation are things. Patterns, shapes and forms are things. All appearing in the basic space of phenomena, which is no thing. So can something come from no thing? Look at this, something cannot come from no thing. So the vibrations, patterns and forms, they're constantly transient, they're constantly changing. There's nothing solid and substantial. This body, thousands of cells are dying in it right now and being replaced. We don't realise it. It appears to be solid, and the manifestation seems to be solid. Solid, but it's... There's nothing solid about it, any of it at all. It's all just a vibrating pattern of energy, seemingly real.

Get any clearer? Also sometimes they call it a dream. And dream is such a magnificent example to see how everything in the dream comes out of nothing. Like when you dream at night, you have the body that is moving outside the bed and is climbing mountains and flying, or having all sorts of antiques and meeting people, and seeing buildings and rocks and mountains and trees that allegedly have been there for hundreds of years. And they haven't. They just came out of the thin air. And the whole dream appears in one moment, out of nothing, and becomes so real. Apparently people even die in the dream because the experience or sensation of fear is so much stronger than literally kill.

Or other experiences, that's just because the impulse control is off, so the emotions are very strong. And the world feels so real. And it is nothing. It's made of nothing. And this one they also call the dream. And when we look into quantum mechanics, we can see that this is all just a movement of particles of energy which are interpreted by that bio-computer to be pictures based on past memories. Like if we see something new, straight away association comes and labels it as something familiar. That's how it slowly gets updated. So it really is all appearance. They call it Maya or appearance. Because it appears to be solid and substantial, and we, the bodies appear, I mean we not the bodies, but our costumes appear solid and substantial.

But that's how it appears to be. Bob often says that it is illusion in how it appears, but it is truth in essence. Because the essence is that energy. The energy which appears either as a potential, which is emptiness, or as the realization of potential, which is a sound, that's energy. Light is the energy. The solid matter is E equals mc2 is an energy. So it is the energy in the manifested and unmanifested that makes its form and emptiness. So the interrogation is seeing... So the interrogation is looking at the inherent emptiness and form, like of everything that it can't label, this as emptiness and this as form because of its flux.

Is that the... okay. Beautiful. Hinduism, they call it Shiva-Shakti. Shiva, the static aspect. Shakti, his consort, the female aspect. Shakti dances or vibrates and the world appears. They call it the dance of Shiva, Shakti. So they describe it. All are vibrating, but there's... And this really just knowing the truth because the perception will still be as it is. Like when we look at those enlightened beings around here, one was sitting on my lap for an hour, the cat. They don't have... They don't imagine to have an ego or separate self and they don't translate the world as relevant to the me. They don't have the self-obsession and safe hatred and all that stuff.

They just live in a natural state. And in the natural state, the world appears in that field of consciousness that they are. Their body appears, the cat body appears, another cat body, human bodies, all of it appears in that space. The perception is still seemingly of objects. The cat doesn't bump to the wall as she walks. But they don't have the labeling pattern. We do have labeling. So we will label emptiness or space differently than the object in the space. And labeling is not the problem per se. It's wonderful capacity this mind has. And the memory is also a wonderful capacity which created this. And the whole civilized world.

The problem really is in believing the labels when we take them to be real. And this is what Bob was saying when, you know, you take the word to be real. Word is just the mental symbolic representation of thing. It's not a thing. And that didn't start until we were about two, two and a half years old. I'm a mom. We call it the terrible twos. It's around that age. Because you start out with no words, but then it was, you know, I've forgotten your name. I'm sorry. Freya. Freya. Mama Freya. Mama Freya. So then that's a mama and that's not Freya. And that's a ceiling and that's not Freya.

And everything for little babies who don't have a thought for anything is just Freya. I guess everything just is. There's no, even Freya, it's no dividing of anything. Anyway. Yeah, I like, I like his point of intelligence energy. You might also ask yourself, Freya, is there anything outside of your knowing of it? Does anything really exist outside of the, you know, the consciousness of this thing, the awareness of whatever it is? Which in turn, if you see that, that that can't possibly be so, then automatically, automatically must conclude that everything is made up of knowingness, which is a kind of intangible, ephemeral kind of thing, isn't it?

That's the true, that's the no-thing nature of everything really, isn't it? It's, it seems to be solid for a minute, but, and it seems to be outside of me. And in reality, it's not, is it? It's only existent in, in the, my, if you like, my consciousness of it. All conceptual. It's all conceptual. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Um, yeah. We don't, we actually don't go beyond our five senses until we, we can see and feel and touch. But if you actually let go and perceive someone who might have hurt you, in actual fact, they haven't hurt you, it's just how you've perceived it. But if you go deeper, they're one with you.

Yeah, so as little kids, we're, learn, we're taught labels. And, um, that's when the split happens. There's the me and the other. Um, that's when that split happens. And so, the mind narrates everything that happens once we learn words, you know? And it, and it creates, at times, the narration's okay, but at other times, it creates a separation, um, or a conflict within us. Um, but it's the nature of the mind to only work in certain parameters. Pleasure, pain, happy, sad, me, you, um. Success, failure, hard luck. Yeah. And so, and so, the mind, when it's just tra-la-la-ring along, is fine. It's when we name and claim things, um, that it creates the conflict within us.

Um, and so, when, when we're poi- when it's pointed by Bob to say, well, hang on, you know, there is no actual me. The me's only a memory, uh, of you. And there's no other. That's also only a memory appearing here right now. And that's what causes the conflict within us. But in actual fact, there's only one. You know, but the mind doesn't like that. You know, because the mind can only work in two. You know, dual. Um, so, it's hard to get the head around initially, that there's only one. Because the mind doesn't like it. It wants to name and claim everything. Yeah, actually, I, we inevitably come to the conclusion that the mind is this vehicle of, uh, obscuring the nature of reality.

And, because it's, uh, always attempting to, uh, bring into being a subject and object. That's, as you said, that's just what it does. That's its duty, if you like. And it's limited to that. But, you know, we've come to a point here, the reason you're sitting in these chairs is because you've discovered that that's somehow not satisfying enough, is it? It's kind of like, uh, there's got to be something more than that. Deeply disturbing. And it is deeply disturbing, yeah. In the realization that, you know, everything here is so infinitely intangible. Yeah, sure, go right ahead. I just wanted to say that the, I felt such a consonance in that resonance in the, this, about water and fire.

So I just, I don't know if feedback's helpful, but there was, like, some real resonance within the body about when you spoke that, like, you know when you have that moment of pinpoint? And, you know, you've heard that in different ways many times, but just the way you said it was like, you know, when you go, oh, that's what, that's it, that's the one. So thank you, that was a very clear way of expressing that. Really appreciate it. That's the resonance, I think. Yeah, it was very resonant. Resonance, well, that's yours then. Thank you. Thank you. I have a couple of comments from people who are with us online.

Amarnath says, all forms are formless. Formless is form, only two ends of same stick. Daily in deep sleep, we are formless. After waking up, we create forms by imagination, adding it, adding to I am. Just to whom is deep sleep a waking step? When it activates, it dissolves. To whom is form and formless? And Tanya says, can you say something about the thought of being disappointed about something? First there is a thought, then an intense energy appearing on the basic screen. But thought says, this is not pleasant. Ha ha. You want to say something about it? Who is disappointed? Who is disappointed? Yeah. Yeah, it's just the energy floating through the awareness.

Yeah, not quite the seeming person expected. Too disappointed. Mm-hmm. Yes, Amarnath also says, in between thoughts and three states, thoughtless, stateless awareness can be catched easily. Later, everything is dissolved into unchangeable, unchangeable self. And Tanya says, actually without thoughts, there is a sense of relief. And Rohan says, one pointer that landed for me to directly experience emptiness is form, is from Douglas Harding who described the experience of headlessness. In our direct experience, on present evidence, we cannot see our own head. The direct experience is just as vast expanse in which all things appear. That vastness is empty. And yet, it is capacity for all that appears in it.

Emptiness is form. And Amarnath says, to whom is thought thinker itself is thought. Do intensely and deep inquiry requiring repeatedly aim is to dissolve inquirer or thinker not thoughts. Thought cannot dissolve the thought. Only phantomness of thinker dissolves everything. Mind is always interested in second and third person, never I, first person. Mm, yeah. I have quite different experience of mind being interested. Do you want to go first? I do, thanks. Um, yeah, Bob, you said before, um, with the whole, you know, like, the dream here, you either accept it all or you reject it, or maybe I haven't, you know, correct me if I've got it wrong, and then life will sort of sort it out depending on what your choice is.

Can you just talk about that? Because the natural inclination is to say, well, I like those bits, but I don't like all those other bits. So I was just interested in that. Instead of judging it, or judging it all, just let that which resonates leave, leave it resonate and see where it takes you. And that's where the rest, when they say the rest will be done for you, is that leaving, living, breathing, life essence that's doing everything now. And then it's digesting your food, breathing it, causing your heart to beat, the breath to happen, it's doing, doing a lot, and it's amazing. If it's allowed to be, when we get in as a conceptual image and try and run the show, we get lost in the concepts and ideas.

It causes, then, because it's not fully functioning naturally, it can be very fearful, stressful, or whatever, lots of other terms I can't think of the words at the moment, yeah. Everything is banky to me. It tells you everything is perfect to result in the unborn mind. He calls it the unborn mind, the mind before we start thinking about it, the natural pure mind. Nature does, the earth's rolling around the sun right now. And anybody doing that, anybody cranking it up, or refueling it, or anything like that, or is it just happening spontaneously? And what's your next thought going to be? Do you have to conceptualise about it, or think about it?

You can't tell me what your next thought is going to be, yet thought, thinking is happening. And you say, I think. So you say, I think, you've formed a subject, a thinker. And I think this thought, that's the object, subject-object thinking has come about. But before that, it's just pure thinking. And Shakespeare told you, nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. Let it be. If you're not thinking about it, it can be neither good or bad, it would just be as it is. As it is means it's unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. No preference, no partiality, no comparison. It goes by itself. Here, Tanya says, Thank you, Bob.

No one here that is disappointed. Just an intense energy appearing and disappearing now. Cool. Peter, did you want to say something? I'll just say that, you know, the judgments in the form of thoughts and judgments are, you know, they're often off the track, aren't they? Like, you often think that that's the worst thing that could have ever happened to me. And then a year later, you'll be going, thank God that happened. I wanted to just throw in something that I, it's been said, I guess, a few times here. There was a quote I think I heard once, and it's, you know, I'm going to do this for myself, no problem.

I like that because, like, what he's inviting you to investigate is really, if you ask, my mom used to do this to me when I was a kid, man. She'd sit me in a chair until I squirm for hours. Who are you? I'm a girl. Okay, you're not a girl. You're a girl, you know, this. And she never really just kind of like, come on, help me out here. You know, if the answer comes up in words, okay, because that would have helped. But she didn't say that. She didn't know to ask. Yeah, but that is a good pointer to know when you're even looking, that if it comes up in words, keep looking.

What are you? And I think they call it in Hinduism neti neti, not this, not this. And it really does change, it makes, changes the game a bit. When you can look and discover and see, wait a minute. Okay, so who's got a problem here? Who cares? Who wants to figure this out? Who's upset? Who needs to save the world? Who's going to die? Who? Can I actually find the one? I'm sorry. Yes. I did once because I remember hearing somebody say, well, who's upset about this? I am. You know, can you find the one? Yes. I'm slapping my leg. Right? Or a body part.

And it didn't occur to me for like two years. I'm slapping my thighs. So it's an indicator. Anyway, that I'm that. I am this body. Right? And I can, when I can see, okay, well, I'm not that. I'm not a personality or even a person. That's a body type, isn't it? You know, we're human. I'm not a thought. I'm nothing. Time is an illusion. How can anything real exist with an illusion? So I'm nothing and nothing. And I'm using words to say nothing. But, you know, it was helpful for me. And to get this better pointing. I just, I don't know. It just, it changes the game without changing anything to understand these things.

Yes. That's true. It changes everything. Because, I mean, I remember one time having a car accident. And I was really into letting go and releasing. And welcoming my feelings. And, you know, just, yeah, all that. And what really helped me to finally just drop it was a conversation with this man. Because I was beating myself up for hours over an accident that was my fault. And I manifested it too. Because I was thinking about it three days before it happened. And boom, you know. And then, as I was like beating myself up, I called him up. And, you know, I thought about your quote, What's wrong with right now if you don't think about it?

Problem is I can't stop thinking about it. And he's like, So who's thinking about it? And then I just started laughing. You know. It's so simple and so beautiful, this simplicity. It's just, it's such a simple question. And it's all that's really, this whole thing can point to. It's just that one thing, really. Like, if you just take a look. Who wants to figure this out? Who needs to correct anything? Who needs to, that's it. I know who you are. You're the non-dual white witch of bling and blah. So here is Amarnath saying to Tanya, beautiful Tanya, thoughtlessness, awareness as substratum untouched by thoughts can be done during thoughts, no coming going.

And Tanya says, yes, exactly, Amarnath, thank you. And Sophie, can you speak about the great joke of know me and the me, while the me takes itself so seriously? What? Can you speak about the great joke of know me, while the me takes itself so seriously? Well, who can say anything about it? Who can say anything about it? Is me going to say something? I'll be in the same boat. There'll be no me trying to point out that there's a me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you may open your mouth and the father will speak. Jesus was talking about the father as the consciousness, the father sky.

The body is the mother element. It's a physical or material sort of an expression and the consciousness being the sky. So the know me will be talking about the know me and the me and everything else because the me is a phantom, it's a fiction. How the me can speak or say anything about anything if it is a Santa Claus, if it is a ghost, an imagination, a construct. So yeah, but Sophie, you already said that. Speak about the great joke. This is about the great joke. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Donations? No, you can put it in the box if you have them.

Yes, so that's about the great joke. And Amarnath says, Great everything is a joke in this world or nothing is a joke. Everything is a joke and nothing is a joke. Yep, because everything is nothing. And he says, ha ha ha, and a few ha ha ha joints from people online and now Kiran. Healthy anxiety has been so bad, health anxiety has been so bad since getting pregnant and now having our boy. I have been afraid of so much or more aware of how afraid of things I am. And having a son has now made that fear impossible to ignore. I want to surrender to the now, yet it doesn't seem to happen easily for me as mind is constantly future tripping.

Kiran, you want to comment on that? Yes, so Kiran, if you see that the mind is constantly engaged with the future and basically scaring itself away, because that's what it does really. If you want to be terrified, that's the easiest and simplest way to get into that anxiety. But you are the consciousness in which the mind is tripping itself over future. You are the space like awareness in which that habit pattern plays out. If you could just relax enough attention to just witness how the mind mechanically does it, then you will experience this much attention that you relax, this much relief you will experience. And initially it may be just a little bit, just seeing the madness of the mind from the no-mind perspective, but the more you actually see it this way, the more you will be recognizing that you are the witnessing presence in which the mind comes and goes.

Because you know that mind doesn't do it all the time. Sometimes it does other things and sometimes it's just quiet. Sometimes the attention doesn't go there at all. But you are always there. Whether the mind is active, whether the mind is tripping over future or scaring itself, anxiety, you are always there prior to the mind. And remember you can call us anytime. Could I just say on that? Please. Brilliant. It's important to remember that there really is nothing to fear but the contents of your imagination. And that really helped me to see that whatever it was that comes up as fear is imagination and nothing more than that.

That's true, yeah. We can only construct these future scenarios in the present time, or in the presence. And clearly presence is the only thing going on. It's only this moment, this... We are only ever in the present moment, isn't that not correct? Of course we are. On investigation this is a priori completely understood matter of fact, isn't it? So, you know, is it difficult then to simply see the unreality of these constructions that we are scaring ourselves with and simply to come back to this present moment that you are? I like to look at the imagination as kind of like the way I saw the boogeyman when I was a little kid, you know, that imaginary guy who was hiding under the bed or in the closet.

A new look and he's not there. And you could see it's imagination just like this. Just like your fear of the future. Funny enough I remember Bob has this beautiful quote sometimes. He says about Mark Twain saying that he died 10,000 deaths over a fear of things that have never happened. A coward dies a thousand deaths. A courageous man, only one. There you go. The thing is, as paradoxical it is, in regard of what we are saying here, that the answer is not in the mind and the logic doesn't help. With managing anxiety it does. Because if you really even look over last couple of weeks and see how many minutes or seconds or hours you spend over creating dark scenarios which have never happened, you will know how unreliable and ridiculously exaggerated mind pattern is.

And how unhelpful. Because it creates the hormones that basically distribute the energy in a fight-flight mode that doesn't really... It impairs your capacity. Behind that dark scenario is love for safety, yes. Your mind wants you to be secure. It wants you to always be safe. That's wonderful motivation. But the way that motivation expresses itself as creating anxiety is simply unhelpful and it can be recognized. Because the only safety lies in your trust in life. That if the situation happens... Because life will provide everything. And the situations, the emotions, the... Who knows? The worst, the climate changes, the crises, the minor, the major. Your safety lies in trusting in life that you will have enough capacity to figure it out when the moment actually comes and become now.

Because rather than overlooking this unique moment which will never be the same again and trading it for some horrible dark scenarios which may never happen, you could really, as Peter and Cliff said, just delight in that uniqueness and the unique mysteriousness of this moment where nothing wrong is happening. And just anchor yourself and rewrite the whole mind into appreciating what is. Because that becomes a habit. Habit of appreciation of the current, present safety. And of course the recognition of the illogical and love behind that illogical fears. This way around. Alternatively, you just take all your clothes off, run outside, put your hands in the air and say, kill me now, God!

Surrender and then see what happens. Yep, beautiful. Dale Allison says, the answer is not in the mind as the word or label is not the thing. It is prior to thought. Absolutely. And Amarnath replying to Dale, Questioner and question are false. Why to answer at all? Answering also happens. And our imagination was so intense that it took intense imagination as stillness. That's Amarnath says with a lot of laughing. And Kiran says, there is a fear of surrender and letting go now that I am a mother. Yet I also feel an urgency to let go as well for the same reason. Here lies the paradox. The time for a one on one is definitely near.

Anytime Kiran. You can come with your baby. Or you can call or you can Skype. You can come all three of you. Yeah, it is really rather important, even though we kind of love at importance because it's all a dream. But it's, you know, your emotional responses are already conditioning the baby. So it's good if they will come from appreciation for the current safety rather than anxiety of the impossible and non-existent imagination of the bad future. And we miss you. Will be wonderful to see you too. And Ram says, no, oh, another one from Amarnath. It is easy. You are not the mother role or mother is superimposed.

You can enjoy your motherhood drama without becoming it will be a great fun to action without actress or acting looks though in the. So in the beginning, but it is most. Easy with practice. And British Julia says, as I believed in me in the past, the teaching of surrender was difficult to do. It's letting go a death of the me. Yeah, the fear of surrender. If there is an idea that you have to the ego that you are will be defeated and killed the fear of dying. Well, it is really a recognition that no one has to. Die. If you see the Santa Claus to be addressed up guy and no real Santa Claus existing.

It doesn't mean that there was any real Santa Claus killed and there was any blood or any corpse lying somewhere and there was anything to fear. The recognition that ego has never been real. Doesn't take any fear is actually a relief that no one has to die or surrender. Really, that's the surrender to realize nothing to surrender. No one to do this surrender. And and Maureen says, Bob, I so often appreciate the depth of your silence and modified unanswered unaltered love, love, love and Tanya says, I appreciate this also love you, Bob and cut. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm aware of a gulf between intellectual understanding and the deep kind of understanding which leads to transformation, which leads to an end of suffering.

And so I have an intellectual understanding of a lot of this, but it hasn't penetrated to relieve this suffering this burden of me. And I wonder if you can comment on that. Well, can you find what you call me? Yeah. Do you know that you are? I know that there's suffering. Yeah. Yeah. Even if I can't pinpoint a me, there seems to be suffering here. I mean, it's not constant suffering. It comes and it goes. Uh, but I feels like there's some stuckness and, uh, as much as I meditate or come to Satsang, it doesn't seem like I'm suffering. There doesn't seem to be an alleviation of that, even though I can't pinpoint it there, that some entity or even apart from a me or an I suffering happens.

That's the I has a concept about it without the concept without the word. What is it then? Just a sensation. I, I guess it, uh, a sensation or a thought. Yeah. Thought. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, does that. And ask yourself who, who is suffering is me. But suffering has to take place over time. And, you know, you have to say, I've always felt like this, or I've been experiencing this for years or, or some other idea has to come up. And when you realize that, that's, that's the thought itself. And, and, and that's the habitual thought that we keep bringing up that there's someone there that's been experiencing something over time rather than just seeing that as a whole collection of thoughts that we go to out of habit.

So, the concept and we fail. He says you're bound to fail because it's non-conceptual awareness. You're not putting a concept on it. What is it? Is it suffering? Is it fear? Is it God? So it seems that I'm keeping this suffering alive by the way that I conceptualize it by the way that I think about it. Yeah. Okay. That's what I meant when I said no self, no problem. Yeah. No self, no problem. It's very true. Non-conceptual thought. Say it again. The great perfection is non-conceptual awareness. Yes. It's like that story. I tell myself I would catch myself thinking, gee, I'm having an absolutely shit-ass day today.

And then I think, when did you start thinking that? I think I just started thinking that three seconds ago. Exactly. Yeah. And until that point, it was okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to say one thing is that you don't have to understand this. All you need to do is bring this to me. That I'm talking about today. I'm talking about to question. That all you have to do, the rest will be taken care of. So just, that's a true thing, actually. There's no further understanding. So just bring the me or bring the, bring yourself, you know, question whether there is any other time but now.

And therefore, you know, just, you're bringing the whole construction to out of time. You know, out of the future. And just questioning whether it can actually be anything other than a projection. And just wait and see. And you'll discover that all you need to do is bring it to question, not to fill in the lines after that. Sometimes, or what I do now is just if you feel suffering or something's come up, just allow, just allow to feel it. And you come back into yourself. And it might go sometimes. A few breaths and you, and it, the more you feel it without labeling it, the more you just, you get all this energy.

You get goosebumps because you know it's not true. You've come home to yourself. You just feel this, like as I'm saying, sometimes just feeling it without anything. It's just beautiful. It's just energy. Yeah, just feeling it. Just before we sign off, I'm going to remind everyone that Bob will be speaking. Tomorrow I will not be co-hosting, but Maureen will be. So if you're in the United States or even Australia, because it'll be Monday here, but Sunday afternoon or Sunday night in Europe, if you want to join us, we'll be here tomorrow on Zoom. And I have another, just a couple of comments here from Amarnath.

Oh, no, it was first one was from Ram saying nothing, nothing, nothing except love. Thank you. And Amarnath, nothing dissolved in everything. Everything dissolved in nothing, yet nothing at all. To whom is the thing? And now we got Maureen says love and thanks to all. And now we have thank you messages. Rohan says love that Peter just questioned me and all else will be taken care of. Amarnath, no problem is the biggest problem of the mind. Good point. Thank you. Thank you, Peter. Understanding the un-understandable is a great fun too. That's Amarnath. And JB says something that helped anxieties and all saying relax. Nothing is under control.

Let life lead. Beautiful. That's a beautiful note to finish the meeting. Such a great meeting. Thank you guys. And so much love to you guys that from JB and Julia did clocks change anywhere. Not in Perth. No time here. Yes. Time is a mental construct. I don't know about changing time. Probably later. We'll change in April. Australian clocks will change in April. Okay. And John says, well said. It is the seeing of the self in the empty space that brings the realization that the empty space is the real self. Beautiful. And Amarnath, thank you Maureen for hosting. That's for tomorrow. And thank you, everyone. Thank you.

Thanks, Maureen.