Sailor Bob, Kat, group. Nonduality. Certainty, undeniability of being. 6 Feb 22

Start from saying our names. I'm Katharina. Julia. Justin. Tess. Jacinta. Tansy. Adrian. Ross. David. Ray. And Peter is coming as well. We'll just get on. What's up? Here. Here. And you are on, darling. You can start talking. You are live. I see. Well, hi everyone. Hi everyone. Good to see all the smiling faces. Everyone's happy. When we were here years ago, why are you unhappy? Because everything you say, everything you do, think, everything you say, everything you think, and everything you do is for yourself. And he says there isn't one. There's no reason to be unhappy if there isn't a self, is there? That's what we point out here.

That there is no personal self. It's the one self that's patterning, shaping, forming, experiencing, expressing as everything. They call the admin or the self. Not the personal self. Personal self. Because it's believing we are this person, this separate entity, this individual. And of course, as that idea is with us, there's always that sense of isolation, separation that's there, insecurity, vulnerability. But if it's all the one essence, nothing's separate, there's no chink in the armour, is there? If it's all that, then I'm happy. that and that's what we ask you to look at and if you haven't already recognized it and some of you have here, look and recognize that you are already that and the so-called search then becomes the problem because the search would imply there's something you haven't got and you will get at some future time.

Well there's another thing that we locked in the belief of time. If you investigate time and see how real that is, it appears to be real but when I put it in the great perfection is non-conceptual ever fresh presence awareness. That is all there is. So time has a beginning, and an end. Even if they believe the beginning is a big bang millions of years away, it's got to have an ending sometime. But what is this presence awareness? When does now begin? Well try and grasp it right now. Okay I've got it but it's already gone and it's happening again. It's all spontaneous. There is only this spontaneous presence awareness.

And I'm going to investigate that and see if what we're pointing to is true or not. When did you begin? Well naturally you'll say I began at birth. But can anyone actually remember your birth? You look into it and you'll say you know you can't remember your birth. Why can't you? Because you didn't have any words. How could you say I was born when you came out of the womb? You had no words. And didn't have any words until you were about two, two and a half when the capacity of reasoning develops in you and your parents fussing around you was repeating these words all the time and you picked up on them.

And learnt words. So it puts it so in the Bible in the beginning was the word. The word was with God. The word was God. All things were made by him by the word. And there was nothing made that was made without the word. So that beginning didn't happen until we learnt words. Until where it tells you in the beginning was the word. But the first couple of years of your life you were alive, living and being but without the word. And there was no sense of separation in that. In that wordless, timeless, spaceless beginning. You were just the livingness, the beingness. The happy to be.

Being, knowing and loving to be. And that's what they call in the scriptures Shatshitananda, Nama Rupa. That is existence. Shat is consciousness or knowing that you are unaware. Aware of your being. And happy to be. So you already are that. But when we learnt these words, your parents told you, your little Johnny or your little Billy or your little Jane. And you learnt words like I and me. Well naturally you put the label on I am Bob. Or I am the Australian. I am the good fellow. We put these words on to give us some seemingly pattern, shape or form. Because it seemed to be so.

In this manifestation. And have a look at the manifestation. Everything around you is words. Labels. The trees are word. The sky is a word. The space is a word. The water is a word. You and I are words. And without the word could you say it was beginning or ending? Or could you describe it? Or separate it? You couldn't. So we realise that every word you've ever spoken or ever likely to speak has been picked up along the way. It's all been learnt. And the word is not the real. Have a look at it and see. Take the word water. Can you drink the word water?

Can you swim in it? Can you drown in it? You can't. The word fire. Can you cook with it? Can you heat yourself with it? Can you burn yourself with the word? You can't. So what's this word I or me? Just a concept or a label we've put on that sense of presence. The knowing that you are. Anyone who is unaware right now. And you realise no, I'm not unaware. Anyone who is not being right now. No, if I'm not unaware I'm not being. I must be. And I'm happy to be. So you are that existing. It's right now. You are that consciousness or awareness.

You're not unaware. And you are happy to be. So that's how they describe the absolute or the godliness. God is just that sense of presence. The light. The essence of the life that you are. The knowing that you are. And are you separate from that life right now? You know you're not separate from the life. So then, like Christ you can say I am the way. I am the truth. I am the life. Where people thought he was talking about himself. He wasn't. He was talking about that sense of presence. Which translates and expresses through the thought as the thought I am. And we believe we are this person.

Where does the word person come from? It comes from the Latin word persona. The mask. So what really are we talking about? This label we put on ourselves. I am Bob and all the rest of us. It's just a mask. It's just a concept. It's not what I really am. When what I really am is the life. The life itself. And you look at that you'll see that all this manifestation is the future. The life fused with that life. In different patterns, shapes and forms. It's the one life expressing, patterning, shaping, forming and experience through everything. Has everything. And you must be that. So that's what I need to investigate and see for myself if it's true or not.

And that's what's happened here. And it's been recognised. That I am-ness is the sense of purpose. It's what I am. I am that. Am-ness or being-ness. Or loving to be. I am that. Isn't that the great mantra? I am that. Now you see. Look around you realise that everything is that. Because that's the chair you are sitting in. That's the space you're in. That's the room you're in. That's the tree. That's the flower. Everything is already that. So really. Is there anything? to search for? Is there anything to become? For becoming is a movement away from being. And Satyutinanda or being, knowing and loving to be is another way of putting it.

You're being right now and certainly knowing aren't you? And nobody wants to be dead right now so you're already that and loving to be. Well try and separate that beingness and realize that you're calling yourself a human being and if you believe in this God, this supreme being, God is the supreme being. But what if you take away that word supreme, take away the word human, does anybody stop being right now? You don't. So you're being without any of those words and that's a human being. Being, the ing, is it's not becoming, it's not will be, it's being right now in this immediacy, this presence awareness.

Right here and right now everyone sitting in this room is being. You don't have to try and become but you've got all these conceptual image and labels based on past events and experiences. And conditioning which when you look at it is really a dead image. It's not what is actual right now. The past is dead, it's gone, it's finished. And think you've got to transform that image into some greater power or higher power or godliness. But start from the fact that you already are that. What's going to happen to the search then? You're not going to, you're not going to be concerned with that trying to become anything.

You'll settle and relax into this very life that's happening right now. Recognise and see you are the life. Because if you take that life out of your body, what have you got? You've got a corpse. And before that corpse rots, before it's buried in the rest, you've still got the eyes, still got the ears, you've got the heart, the lungs, the kidneys, all the organs are there. But what good are they without that life? At animating life intelligently functioning through it? It's just a corpse. Good analogy for that is the computer. Look at the computer, all the information it's got in it. Amazing information. What good is it if the power's not turned on?

The computer's been fashioned shapes and forms through these patterns, a useful instrument. And we don't realise that this body-mind has been fashioned also to express through. And if that wasn't expressing, it couldn't make the computer, couldn't form the computer, couldn't do a lot of other things. What is the life? That's all there is, is life. You have a look at it, you'll see there's life all around, so-called what we call life all around you. From the minutest particle to the hugest galaxy. It's all that life. And it's only the one life. And there is no body that lives a life. Now it's expressing through the body, mind.

It is not the life of the body. It's the life, body-mind. That's what's being formed and being lived. And we are expressing through and as that life. And that life that you are is suffused innately with an amazing and wondrous intelligence. Not your intellects that work out two and two is four and this and that. The life itself is intelligence. Just like look in nature and see how that is. Just like look in nature and see how that is. Just like look in nature and see how that is. intelligence is functioning. It's rolling the earth around the sun. It's causing the seasons to come and go, the tides to come in and out.

It's breathing you, it's beating you, beating your heart. It's growing your hair and your fingernails. It's the very life essence in which thing we call the world appears. And they tell you that in the scriptures also. When they say it's a phenomenal manifestation and the definition of phenomena in your dictionary if you look it up is that which appears to be. So this manifestation is appearing, seemingly so, but the essence is that life. And what does it all appear in? What's the basic screen in which everything appears? When you look and see that it's... It's... Isn't it space? Can you postulate anything or think of anything at all that could be outside of space?

Space is empty. It's silent. It's still. It's no thing. And yet all this manifestation... Have a look in this room. All the things that are in this room are appearing in that space which is in the room. The room... Itself... Is in space... Because the walls, and the ceiling, and the floor are not chopping out the space. And have a look at that. And everything else. The trees are appearing in space. You and I, and everything else appearing in that space in that silence, in that stillness. Space is empty as I said before. Vibrating, it's a movement, seemingly somewhat of a movement. a pulsation or a vibration.

Space is empty, it's no thing. Can something come from nothing? Well when you look at it you realise that something cannot come from nothing. And yet you and I and everything else in this room are things, all appearing in that space, appearing in the no thing. So the appearance is only seemingly so, it's not the actual. Everything appears to be so. And it's all transient, all changing. It's all that vibration, throb, pulsation that's vibrating. And we think it's time. Time, what we call time, has a beginning, a middle and an end. Well, we'll have a look at this. When does this now begin? Can you pinpoint a time when you were born?

You can't, you didn't know anything about it because you didn't have any words. So you can't say. But you see other things come into existence. But that very existence they came, seemingly appeared, is it the same existence that is now? Or is it constantly changing? It's constantly transient. Constantly changing. Now is the past, it's gone. Tomorrow hasn't come. It's seemingly something that will happen at some future time. The presence is spontaneous. It's got no duration. Again, pointing out that there's no such thing as time. There is no duration. It's just a throb or a pulsation. Now, you look at it along these lines and you realise that what you call yourself is much greater than what you've taken it to be real.

It's not the poor, miserable, unhappy human being that's suffering, causing grief. It is that same absolute intelligence energy that's being, knowing and loving to be. That's forming all these pattern shapes and forms. And expressing through and as them. And you are that. Ram Dass who was around a few years ago, he's made the statement, be what you are. Don't pretend to be what you're not. You're not this human being. You are the reality. And that's what you need to be. And that's what you are. And it's quite simple and quite easy. All it needs to happen to is to question. Question some of these erroneous beliefs we've taken upon and these concepts and ideas.

Who am I? Well, for a start, what I know is that I am. What is this I am? It's not the body. It's not the mind, which I've mistakenly taken it to be. It is the sense of presence. The awareness of being present right here, right now. That is what I am. That sense of presence. It's a sense. A feeling. It will become a thought, a feeling, an emotion. But it's not a sense of the past. Or the future. It's the immediacy of this moment. Right here and right now, try and negate your beingness. Tell yourself, I am not. And you'll immediately say, that's bullshit.

I'm here. I'm here. I'm present. And I'm aware. But there again, we've got this concept to keep putting the idea of the person, the separate entity on. It's natural that we took that on because we learnt the words. When your father and mother told you Little Billy, or Johnny, or whatever your name was, in a sense, well, I am Little Johnny. And you took it on and we've believed it ever since. But you hear looking into it, it means you haven't been quite satisfied with that. And you start to look a little bit further. Look along different lines. Because the old, some of the old scriptures that you're a sinner, you're an evil person, and you've got to reincarnate, and you've got to die, and become something else.

All of these concepts, and that's all our concepts and beliefs we've taken on, have got us bound. You're bound in this idea that you're a separate entity, an individual, a person. And you've got to become something. Because that's what you've been told. But there's always been some down through the ages that have gone a little bit further and gone into it and pointed to the truth. The Taoists say the way that can be spoken about is not the way. And the Buddhists will tell you the great way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. And realise that you are already that. That is all there is.

See it. Know it. Know the truth. And the truth will set you free. Not believing in it. What happens when we take on the capacity of reasoning? We don't take that on until we're about two, two and a half, when that develops in us. Before that you've got no words. When we start learning words, we've got this capacity of reasoning. And that's when we start discriminating. I am this person and I'm not good enough, or I'm fearful, or I'm anxious. And when they tell you when no discriminating thoughts arise, the old mind ceases to be. Well if you're not discriminating, you're not going to see it in the same way.

You're going to see it differently. Well there's all the clues that needs to happen. Belief is not the actual. The definition of belief is an unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason. Acceptance of an alleged fact without positive knowledge or proof. Question it. See for yourself. Because none of these patterns here, like you, me, or any other pattern, because we're just patterns, expressions of it, cannot give it to you. How can we? When we are patterns ourselves, expressions of it ourselves. Nobody can give it to you. But you can. A little bit of investigation, you can recognise it and see it for yourself.

Re-cognise. The Buddha called it a cognising emptiness. We think and believe we've got to cognise the emptiness, got to see it. It doesn't mean anything at all. It means it's the emptiness itself suffused with that capacity of reasoning as that capacity of recognising it. It's the emptiness that is the recognising emptiness. It's a cognising emptiness. The emptiness of itself is cognising it. And the Buddha made the statement that emptiness is form. As I pointed out earlier, all these patterns, shapes and forms are all that emptiness. And it's emptiness that's forming them all. And the forms can be nothing other than the emptiness. Whether you like it or not.

You and I and all these other patterns are empty forms. Recognise it. Know it for certain. And be that unfixated awareness. Not where you're fixating on something to the exclusion of other things. Be unfixated. Let it be as it is. It'll be constantly changing. Constantly transient. Like life is. And you'll realise you are that life. And that'll do this little pattern, shape and form for now. And it's up to each and every one of you. If you've got any doubts or questions ask them. If you're looking at it for the first time. But if you looked into it for a while and got a bit of a grasp of it, express it.

Because somebody might resonate with it. They haven't heard it in that particular way of expressing it. And that's how it's transmitted if you like to use that term. Or passed on from one to another. It's recognised or resonated with. Resonate with something. As they say, know the truth. And the truth will set you free. So you want to do it? Everyone who's online with us. And I'll just read a couple of comments that we have from online. And we have a lot of good morning messages and love to everyone from John, Kathy, Vivek, Tanya, Surrender Zen, Dan and Allison and many others. And we have a nice sort of a welcoming quote.

Morning lovers of truth. The truth that you are. So that's a nice So with that we have a little bit of an action. Here Bill says, it is so simple we deny it. To think that is all there is. Love the way it expresses through Boba Fett. Thank you Bill. And you preach it Sailor says Chris. Hi Chris, good to have you here. And he also says, what is the relationship between knowing and the emptiness? Can I answer that? No relationship, but there's one. No relationship, there's one. There's one essence. Thanks. The knowing is just a vibration or a throb or a pulse that's appearing in the cognising emptiness.

Yes, one way it expresses. The emptiness vibrates into the cognition of consciousness. Seemingly vibrates. Yes. It's not even a full vibration because that would be time and again. But it's somewhat of a throb what they call spander or a throb or a thrill or different labels they put all over the head. Vivek says, no preaching, only pointers are shared. Only being. And Chris says, was Nisargadatta Maharaj, how was Nisargadatta Maharaj personally? And the recollections. And the comment of personality of Nisargadatta? I love the man. That's all I can say. It's not. I don't have any concept or idea about him. Would that be any more real than anybody else?

Yeah, so he was lovable. And Amanash, everything comes from nothing. Beyond everything and nothing too. Beyond words and thoughts. And Chris says, wonderful, wonderful. Wonderful. Think without thinkers, says, labels, says Amanash. And, that's it for the comment. So anyone would like to jump in and share something or ask question or contribute to the meeting? The stage is open. Are you ready to jump in, Peter? No. No. One more comment coming. Just one more comment coming. I'll read it up. This is from Tanya. And she says, Nisargadatta, good and bad is duality, but there is a thought or belief that killing animals is not right. But that is just thought, story, right?

As life lives on life and out of life more life comes. There can't be acceptance of animals being food, resistance to this. There is no judgment of others eating meat. Hope this doesn't bring up too much of the debate. I know I have asked about this before. And Amanash answered to that that nothing's good about, but thinking makes it so. I see, Bob, you want to answer to this? Well, animals and everything else are just the same as you and I. We're parents only. Only seemingly to be so. But it's the one life that's patently shaping for me, expressing as everything. That is all. Yeah, they're like, is it okay to kill or eat dream animals, too?

That's a question. Another way of looking at it, see why particular animals or human animals is bad to kill and mosquitoes is not bad to kill, or bacteria or virus is not bad to kill. Or perhaps plants, which are also life forms, is not bad to kill. See, notice the subtlety in the identification as this complex form of consciousness and sense of superiority of more complex form of consciousness. Because those are all concepts. And as you understand those concepts, at no point you will start killing animals or little children or people because that's just, if the body is not conditioned this way, it's not going to happen.

But at least you will be free from the belief which subtly causes separation and judgment. Because you may not be completely conscious of it, but if you decide that this is your identity, you're not eating meat because this is bad, and even though you may have no concept that other people eating meat are not bad, there is a separation, there is a difference, there is a sense of superiority because the good and bad is the idea that separates us. I agree, you disagree, I am right, you are wrong. Just see the subtlety in that. And that's the idea. Because eating or not eating that part or this food or whatever, doing anything, just like in nature, does not have to cause any sense of suffering and any sense of separation from anything else.

It is just how life expresses itself through this particular body and it doesn't have to have a story around it and justification of it. And even if the justification happens, and it is a way we can, in which love expresses itself, just let it happen, love it. But don't take it as your standpoint, don't make it personal that will just free you from the potential suffering. And yes, love the animals, express the love and care, but see that story coming up because that's not you doing it, that's just what comes up from the conditioning. And enjoy as it comes. You wanted to say something, Julia?

Yeah, I wanted to say, Christ, I think that a lot of all the shooting that we do is really divisive. You know, that we're not doing, we don't do any of it. But when it happens, it's very, it's very divisive of, I'm right, you're wrong, I'm better, you're worse. And I think Kat nailed it when she said, you know, the mosquito deserves to live, so does the tomato. You know, I mean, I've heard that trees have communication with each other and I thought it was very interesting. I heard once that the lima bean will actually, to save itself or whatever from predators that'll want to eat it, it can send out other signals to get other things to eat those predators it wants to live too, so don't eat the lima beans.

I mean, you know, where do you stop? Where do you draw the line? You know, what if there really isn't a line except it's all conceptual? You know, it always has been. And I don't know, I just, I'm just kind of talking out of my whatever, but I feel like, I'm talking out of my ass here, yeah. But it just seems, in my experience, when I'm like shitting on others, it doesn't feel great. You know, it feels separate too. It feels like there's a you and a me when there's shitting happening. And when you see that really what should be is what is. Yeah. Years ago I used to tell the story about the dung beetles.

You've heard of a dung beetle? I've seen a dung beetle in Africa. It gets the elephant shit, rolls it up into a ball, and digs a hole about a meter deep into there. And carries it round on it's hind legs and lays a little larvae in it and buries it. And then it dies. And that larvae grows and so it's a little and some will come up and burrow their way up to the surface and fly to where they thought the elephants were, but there's been a drought and there's no elephants there. So they'll all die. Others will come out and go somewhere else and some of them will be eating birds by birds or insects on the way or other things.

And then the honey badger coming along and he can smell that larvae down a meter down and he burrows down and digs it out and eats it. So all those things lost their life. But there were ample more eggs laid for enough to keep the people going. Keep the dung beetles going. Just the same as out there in the yard garden as a tree. That tree's got hundreds of pine cones on it. And all of those pine cones will have hundreds of seeds in them. Now all those seeds are not going to sprout. The corralas will come along at a certain time of year and they'll get to crack every pine cone off there and break the seeds out of it.

Others will fall on the road and get crushed by the cars. Some will go in the garden and I know hundreds of pine trees going in the garden. Life lives on life continually. We're all arguing about this death and don't need to do that. Well naturally if you're not moved to do it or you don't want to do it you don't do it. But it will happen in spite of you. Like this virus that's going on now is killing thousands of people. It's not the first one that's ever gone around. There's been plagues in Europe many many times all over the world. There's always been enough to survive.

Life's very prolific and it's... So each thing has a purpose. Half of that life would survive if something didn't if the lion didn't eat the the prey or some parts if the Eskimos didn't eat fish. What are they going to live on? Snow? No, but it's true you see. Life is continually living on life and life is prolific in its way it reuses itself. You and I are the life. All the bacteria in this body they're all life. They're getting life out of it. Take a couple of antibiotics or something it's like the story about the three germs. The story of the three germs? Yeah.

This bloke's feeling a bit off so he goes to the doctor and the doctor says, what's wrong? He says, oh he said, I'm not feeling too good. He says, been eating alright? Yeah. Yeah, been in no trouble at all? No. He says temperature seems pretty right. But he says, how's your bowels? And he says, they're good doctor. Regular as clockwork. 9.30 in the morning on the dot. He says, they sound okay. So away you go. There are three germs in his body and one says, does he hear what's going on? He's seen the doctor and the doctor's going to give him an antibiotic. What are you going to do?

The one says, I know what I'm going to do. He says, I'll get into his brain. I'll be safe there. The other one says, no, no, that's no good. He says, I'll get in his kidneys. The kidneys are good. The kidneys will be the show. And the other one says, well you two can do what you like. He says, I know what I'm doing. He says, I'll be on the 9.30 out of here in the morning. Yes. I think trust is important too. You hear the message from Bob. At some point you've got to do the investigation deeply in the privacy of your own mind to understand that yes, it is true that I cannot be an idea therefore, you know, there must be something else going on.

You cannot be in my conceptualization that I find my being, that's my true self. Once one has done that and really got the direct experience of knowing that that is true for yourself it stands in contrast to the world which is to drag you back into the complexity of ideas of all kinds. And there is a moment where we can simply exercise trust. Like tip yourself into the other side where I cannot be an idea you know this is absolutely a priori true in your direct experience. So try it out and fall back on this complex of concepts that rises and falls and try to find reality there.

You've got to give it a go. In a sense. So these notions about working it out whether I should eat and eat or not eat and eat or kill this beast or that beast or whatever are all taken care of in that moment that you completely and utterly trust because, or experiment at least throw yourself onto the precipice of now, right? There is no other time, is there? No, then there cannot be space and time. This must therefore be this must be the experience of something other than the configuration of my conceptual mind, isn't it? Don't worry for a thing, as Bob loves to say and I love it too, Bob is that you have no care for the the birds have no care for putting up stores and keep it a shot.

It's actually quite an amazing experience it's very beautiful very calm, happy and it just shows you as Bob said earlier this is simply a flow of imagining it's wonderful thank you, thank you. You realise that there's naturally a lot of trust there already because don't you get on the tram every day and trust you? Don't you eat your bread on trust? You go to the bakery and buy a loaf of bread you don't know what he's put into it. So many different things we would trust there's a lot of things we don't trust as Peter said, we've got to work on those and take it over all, yeah.

There's a few comments also from people who are with us and Amarnath says beautiful appearance is eating appearance eating disappearance and a lot of laughing faces like a dream, laughing out loud Amarnath also says that truth is so subtle and so simple that can't be grasped with mind or concepts or words and Primali, just a thought aren't we making stories about killing? We don't know anything so whatever we say are stories who knows? Beautiful point Primali. Yes, Peter was alluding to that too like who is killing any animal right now at this moment? Can you see even? Yeah, they're animals they're very alive one got just locked out I had to go and rescue it and he loves them and now Tanya says wow, thank you Bob and Kat did not realize there was a subtle superiority about being vegetarian and there has been an identity as vegetarian that I am ready to let go of and I'm doing the letting go not eating meat will probably still happen until it doesn't thanks for pointing out that it is it's being bad is just a story or concept which is what came up here looking at it but just same doubt just those stories floating by thought stories floating by life is moving all the expressions to eat whatever they eat exactly, beautiful Tanya and Primali says bowing thank yous and Tanya also who is judging what life forms should live and what life forms die a very good point I certainly have no qualms in swatting a fly or mosquito and Amarnath, thank you Peter truth, self is not an idea or concept or notion we have lived so long on them that we feel that we can't live without them we can live without body mind notion yeah and Julia British Julia so true we get in a car every day without thinking about it get out of the mind and its habits immense gratitude to you all and Bob and Kat yeah the natural trust that Bob just pointed without concepts just recognize it is there like there is no way to waking up or it's just recognition, simple recognition moment to moment because there is no other time yes and recognition and out of that the natural gratitude flows that nothing is wrong right at this moment concept of killing animals, recognized it is a concept concept of time, story, future recognized, concept without those concepts or with them being recognized for what they are where are you?

just here, just now and that's very simple and very graceful and very easy and very peaceful and very joyous so we just coming back to that recognition whatever doubt, whatever thought keep them going and smile at them see what they are they are just a nice little entertainment sort of a vibrations they are not serious, they are not true they are not dangerous, they are not they are nothing, they are just a dancing light did you want to again talking out of my ass I grew up in New York where the word I heard this quote once I just thought it was funny trust me means fuck you trust me means fuck you in New York trust is not really something that could be forced and I really like what you were saying I had a certain amount of trust to get in the car And at the same time, I was thinking about what, I think it was my son was asking, we were talking about what is happening here.

And I think he tried to think of it as a philosophy. And I'm like, I think that a philosophy would require a certain amount of trust. I think a better way to describe all what is happening here is more of an investigation where trust is not required. Okay, trust also kind of like that idea of trust implies a belief, you know, that I'm going to trust that what he's saying is true. I'm going to believe it. No, don't believe this. Don't believe this. Investigate. This is an investigation. This is what we're doing here is looking to see, oh, let's see from your own direct observation.

Don't believe what I'm saying. That if I say, all right, I personally have been a vegetarian since 1995. But I'm a hypocrite, as Kat knows, because I'm not a vegan. I don't know. I don't know. I was just thinking about this trusting and believing. What I've loved about what we're doing here is investigating. This is something we're all just looking from our own observation. Can I have a problem without a thought? Is this thought really, is this something you can grasp onto? Or is it just like a, I don't know, I think it's more like birthday candle smoke. When you blow it out, it just sort of moves on.

Enough smoke though can seemingly cause damage. Then again, that's all dreaming too. So. Okay. Whatever. I've got really good, you know. Yeah, I've got really good comment from Michelle. And thank you, Michelle, for being a little bit of a devil's advocate and then contributing to the discussion. Michelle says, I kind of disagree. I think suffering is real and we have a natural tendency to avoid suffering for ourself and others. So. I think, as a woman who has been drinking a lot of alcohol for many years, I think this is a very good question for you because I think that as a woman, we have a tendency to avoid suffering.

We have a tendency to avoid pain and follow pleasure because that's how the body has been calibrated. But what we're pointing out here is that we are not necessarily this body. The body with its tendencies to avoid pain and follow pleasure is the vehicle through which life essence expresses. But recognizing yourself as a life essence, that is not the way. It's not the way that it works. life essence doesn't mean identify with the body or as the body and it doesn't mean also to exclude the body it's just body is one of the forms through which it expresses and absolutely it expresses us pain and pleasure and as a tendency to follow bliss and a tendency to adore beauty or love beauty yes totally and i love that you include that part of being vegetarian which comes from the compassion because yes there is that beautiful part in which you want to diminish the suffering you want to spare those little brothers of yours from unnecessary pain it doesn't mean that killing is actually causing suffering i think actually not killing is maybe causing more suffering but that's just few documentaries that we've seen with bob after which he stopped eating meat because of the conditions in which the meat is being produced, the way it is the animals are being treated to actually deliver that meat.

The killing is actually releasing them from the suffering, the cow or the chicken or other animals. But I do love, I see where you're coming from, Michelle, and that's beautiful. And thank you for throwing it into the pot. And there is a couple of more. Tanya says, smiling at the stories and recognizing without the thought, I am not body, mind or anything, not located anywhere. Although it appears there is a location in the body. That's how it appears, absolutely. Otherwise, where would you, you know, you have to see and the seeing happens from certain position or perspective. Yes, beautiful. Amarnath, can we enjoy without enjoyer?

Story can be without teller or listener, just as everything, phenomenal. That's us how it is. And Tanya, you are not a hypocrite, Julia. You are just not moved to give up the animal products. Tanya, coming from you, this is precious. And Julia is really happy right now. Yeah, yeah, I'm such a hypocrite. I can't give up pizza. Well, yeah, that's, don't take credit for even that. Yeah. It's just what's happening. Vivek says, if everything is concept, then better act. Choose part of the concept, knowing love in all beings. And see that happening because you're not the doer. Just don't take credit even for that, Vivek.

And thank you. And Amarnath says, when ego recognized as phenomenal, it's manifestation of self. And it is a manifestation of self. OK. Yeah, ego is manifestation of the one essence, whether recognized or not, because everything is a manifestation of that one essence. And nothing is not it. But try and find the ego. Maybe there isn't such a thing at all. I mean, people call ego a personality pattern. So they say dogs and cats have egos. But that's just a matter of what you define as what because, without the thought. Show me. Show me. show me the ego there's no such thing it's just the bundle of images labeled it's really investigating what exactly what ego is i think because um i think i think maybe a good definition and if you were to give it a word and it is really just a word isn't it you know would be though if you give it a word um it would be the identification as a doer that there's a doer when i go yeah so no i know no doer yeah when you see that that the eye was a myth there's no one to do anything right have a little comment maybe as well on what you're talking about i'm pretty sure recently um scientists have realized that um whales have like quite com complex forms of communication like language and they can speak from like one whale to another whale across the ocean so from our conceptual mind that implies that they might have must have an identity because it's like how would they know that that whale speaking to this this whale and so possibly that also implies that ego is based on language so it's possible that these whales also have egos i found that interesting i have a question for bob after thank you it's all on sound isn't it sounds of vibrations a particular vibration but they have to identify i suppose don't they if otherwise yeah wonderful story i love whales yeah and that's about all that's really necessary yeah like trying to discern that they do this or that is it's just a useless complexity when in the in the light and the pure light of the isness of the whale the beingness of you know you now it's a bright idea it's a beautiful idea it has god in it if you like you know but let's not try to work it out any further than that so to speak some interesting factoids if you like you know that um sperm whales gather in this thing called a rosette in the Antarctic where they put the huge brains and they have the largest brains on earth.

About the size of a VW motor, you know, Beetle. And they put their heads together in the Antarctic like that. You put them together and they just sit there for some period of time. What the hell do you think they're doing? I don't know. But it's wonderful, isn't it? You know, the whole thing here is to just try to find the answer in the concepts, in the mind. You know, all of a sudden when we say that, what is there else? There's nothing but mind, right? It seems. It leaves you with nowhere to go, but that's kind of the whole point, I think. Exactly. You got it.

Yeah. So, seeing the uncomfortableness of that from there. Yeah. Sort of leads me to my next question. I think once you sort of get some understanding or some non-understanding, however you want to put it, that there is no self or there is no ego. And so there's nothing that you can really do. But... you can seemingly still do things, and it appears that you can. So, then suppose there becomes levels of being caught up or maybe not the right term, but it becomes degrees of being caught up within the self. So, seemingly throughout the day, you're caught up in, say, a story about, I don't know, the beginning or the end.

about this or my preferences at that point is it better to just stay caught up in the story or once you've realized I suppose you're not really caught up in it anymore yeah so there's nothing left to do at that point so my question is is there any benefit in your opinion of just realizing when you're caught up in stories and caught up in the idea of the self maybe you don't have a choice at that point it just feels that we probably don't have a choice at that point but it feels like you do the recognition that you're caught up then you'd ask yourself who's caught up me but wait a minute is this me real what's me it's just a word just a sound is there anything near at all that's caught up what's real?

wrong with right now if I don't think about it? Ask yourself those questions and see what you can say. Yeah. That's it. And what do you recognise when you ask, who's asking the question? The questioner is the question itself. Who am I is the question. Who's the questioner? So they cancel each other out of the questioner is the question. Left with presence of awareness. What? Yeah. It's probably a better. Yeah. I kind of feel like. The who implies a person, doesn't it? Or an entity? Yeah. Who? I kind of feel like a better question is what? And what is this? That's kind of, because like when I say that, it feels like there's something other than, but this.

You say, what am I? But then I is like a. What is that? I is identification too, isn't it? But this. Also look where. That will be interesting. Yeah. Where is this? Because it can't locate an item. Yeah. So where is this? Or what is this? Yeah. Yeah. Is the, when you're asking, because most commonly it's phrased, what, who am I? Is that sort of to, so you realise that there's no who and there's no I? So it's sort of like, because that's probably the most common quest naturally. You would start with who am I? Because everyone seems to want to know who they are.

Yeah. It's important, even if you're within. Yeah. So, yeah. Who's asking the question? I am. Well, I must be the question. And what's the question? A question. So the question and the question are both questions. Cancel each other out. And that question is really, is really game changing. I mean, it's, it's, I think what brought me to Bob, was this thing I was doing. It was sort of, I guess you call it a method. They called it the Sedona Method. And there was a lot of letting go and welcoming your feelings. And it was great. It was really helpful. And, and I would just say the sledgehammer of it all, there was this question where you would be pointing at, well, what wants to know?

Who wants to know? Who cares? Who's the one with the problem? And that to me is like such, that's the, that's the sledgehammer. That's the nuclear bomb. That's what blows it all away. There was a great metaphor I remember hearing once. If you look at a skyscraper and in the middle of a skyscraper, what really like holds it all together is something called an I-beam. And it actually looks like in English, we have this capital letter I, right? And so when they're going to blow this building up, like in Vegas, say they want to put a new building in or whatever, they want to get rid of this building.

You know what they do? Is they attach dynamite to that I-beam. And when that I-beam is blown up, the whole thing goes, just, just, yeah, it's a beautiful thing to investigate. And I think that what I was trying to get to was, I'm just remembering a story of shortly after I met, I first started chatting with Bob. I was working real hard at letting go, letting go. And there was a lot of working at it, a lot of, A lot of frustration happened on one particular day when there was a car accident. It was completely the fault of whatever I was thinking I was. And I was, I don't know, I heard this quote, what's wrong with right now unless you think about it?

And I'm like, nothing. Nothing's wrong. Problem is, Bob, I can't fucking stop thinking about it. And then he just says, so who's thinking about it? Ah, when he asked that, it was just boom. That just put the dynamite on the I-beam. You know, it's beautiful. So once there's, I suppose, an intellectual understanding and moderate experiential understanding of this, what this is, habits come back when, especially when things, when things seemingly go wrong, is that like the last thing? Is that like the test of how deep the recognition is? Like if, like say something can really go wrong and there's, it doesn't come, there's no I going, well, this is happening to me.

Because it's, when you're sitting on a cushion and you let, you know, you ask the questions and there's just empty space and you realize that that empty space is, is closeted. cognizing or that it's aware itself and that I feel like I'm sitting down or just even getting comfortable somewhere and it's quite easy just to just let go and not be the I but then when things get tough seemingly get tough is that the test like I think it's useful to see the ego or the this construction of self that I seem to be as a an inexplicable device which is that in fact dedicated to covering over the truth everything yeah it's useful maybe useful to see that everything that I think can either lead me home momentarily right or point to the truth or it can continue to be a real thing and I think that's what I'm trying to do and I think that's what I'm trying to do and I think that's what I'm trying to do and I think confused the issue in its entirety in which case it's a denial of God isn't it confused the issue in its entirety in which case it's a denial of God isn't it the denial of the truth maybe I'm talking out of my ass right uh it feels like over the last several years like it feels like over the last several years like there's been a lot of deep scenes where the me and has been seen through the me's sort of collapsed um you see there's a no there's no thinker there it's just all conceptual dreams etc and you know you go through life and you're in a lot of different environments feels there's a lot of pressure a lot of um conditioning i guess and it feels like stuff can get triggered and sparked and almost dragged back into the dream where you go unconscious again with the dream briefly and you come out and see that it's just a dream again so um it feels like i think this is a story that perhaps at some point there's going to be a definitive establishment in that non being that non as bob was saying that non-fixated point i like that but there's no there's no point that you're looking from there's no like there's no center to it um which is beautiful um so i'm going to let go of this whole plan maybe um or expect yeah and obviously a plan any plan expectation is all thought all me blah blah blah so yeah it's just that flip-flopping at times can get there's a frustration yeah anyway i know that's going back into story but that's beautiful i think that story that and you're sort of both describing like like like it's been experienced like here quite a lot and it was until it just it just became a story so then when you're lost in it it's like it just becomes it just actually started to become fantastic because there's no destination there's no final goal and it would and then it's like in the immediacy everything can just just completely transform um so it's sort of i found it was really there's an okayness and an acceptance of all that game as it appears without without looking for a any form of like solution outcome future goal or place you know some position like some central point where there is none there's no there's no fixated point as such so then then the whole movement lost found good bad luck it's been it's all just a show um story is it also isn't it the story yes yes that essence expressing i think the story is it still but at the time it doesn't feel like it does it yeah yeah and i'm wondering if that getting caught up in the story and then realizing that you're caught up in the story does that eventually drop away and there's just the story's there but there's just no getting caught up in it yes even in like even in how badly you want to find out because what is now is over ever is yeah and i suppose this development evolution it's all just don't wait for some future in which the story won't arise yeah because that's being back in the trap of the mind right here are you going to say something what are you going to say something Yes, and I have actually had a really nice comment here from Prima Li, who is with us online, and she's got a nice clarity.

She says, don't take this reply the wrong way, but why are you asking the question? And beautiful Prima Li, thank you for that comment. You see how every why question or every question is still engaging with that conceptual mind, is still making stories, is still really designed to entertain the intellectual capacity or one could say the conceptual self or the image, rather than engage with this present moment, with this magnificent, miraculous moment that will never be the same again. And we do appreciate questions. Because that's how this works. This moment appears. It unfolds as a session of questions and answers. But really engaging in more doubts, digging more questions, initially it feels like answering them will silence the mind.

But the mind never stops. It will come up with thousands more questions, or it will start repeating itself with more questions. The thing is to actually understand that the conceptual mind cannot ever get the answer, because the conceptual mind is not the answer. The conceptual mind will always design some future, some goal, some idea of getting something for the me, the separation. And yes, it will never be enough. Good point, Giulia. Because that's the point of the seeking mind. It wants to seek. The seeking mind, this is the identity of the seeker. That identity has to be recognized as a false costume and dissolve. And then the question, oh, is that ever going to end?

Oh, is that ever going to end? Or am I going to get better? Or am I going to get more pleasure? Or is it going to feel like there is no me? Or is it going to feel like there is no fixation? All those questions, they stop arising, because if there is no seeking mind, there is no questions. And that is when everything unfolds as it always have, and it always will, without the presence of the seeking mind, the one that wants to know, the one that wants the truth, that wants to find it and keep it for itself. Wants to understand it. Because that one is the conceptual image.

That one is the core of a fiction. See that core of a fiction, the one that wants to know, the one that wants to understand. That is the me. Sometimes the me might feel like someone, oh yeah, but I just want to be safe and confident. Or I just want to be, you know, always dissatisfied, slightly dissatisfied with this moment as it arises. Yeah. And that is when you are looking for solutions, the seeking self, or seeking mind, the seeker. If you see that one arising, you are already looking from beyond identification with that one. You are looking from that space-like open field of witnessing consciousness, rather than that phantom appearing as me.

This is the seeking mind. So you're witnessing that vibration. Totally understanding that. Yeah. This is the part of the story. This is the part of that landscape of unfolding. But this is not you. This is not personal. And that's the freedom. Now the question, are the thoughts going to arise? Is the identification going to arise? How relevant? How irrelevant? It doesn't matter. Because you are the space. Whether they arise, whatever arise, good, bad, pleasant, painful, self-image, this, that, doesn't matter. Because space doesn't ask questions and doesn't... It's not in conflict with... Like mirror is not in conflict with what it is reflecting. Everything that appears in the mirror is indifferently, neutrally accepted as just the appearance.

And I have another couple of comments. And this is a beautiful. From British Julia. You listen. Love you, Bob. And a beautiful big heart. I want to keep you in my pocket for when this is forgotten. How lucky we are. And that little four... Gosh, I don't know the name of that plant. Amarnath says, me never existed, but we built the world or thought building without basement of me or I. And Tanya says, quite mind blowing to see there is no undoing. An action happens. And thought claims I did it. For example, weightlifting happens here. Though climbs... Thought climbs, I squatted 65 kilos today. Congratulations.

I am happy with that. But the life moved the body to perform that action. You have never done anything. That's exactly right. Yes. That's beautiful. And Amarnath, only our thought comes and goes. And I think that's a beautiful thing. It comes and goes. Image, on image, not the screen. Non conceptual awareness. What is not coming and going is self. And Tanya relate to that a lot, Adrian, a lot of flip flopping here. Amarnath says we frequently forget me or I itself, is story which cannot withstand investigation. I want time and persons do not exist. I want time and persons not exist. And Michael, thanks Bob and Kat, and much love from Michael.

And love to you, Michael. And Byron, yet people insist on a meeting full of explanations and words. They cannot accept silence. And also, Byron, I'm sorry I missed the question earlier. I've seen he was saying that I hardly ever see the same people coming back. How come that people come only once or so? It could be anything, like the whales can not have an eagle. Some people may resonate straight away and never need to investigate again. And it happens. And some people may not understand a word. And they may come back in 10 or 20 years, which has happened. Or that might just not their cups of tea.

And who cares? Life moves them. Most people come because they want to adorn themselves with some kind of nice idea or some sort of better idea of themselves, I would say. That's just another idea as well. Just two examples. A few days ago, I was driving up towards Cottle's Bridge. And I was listening to the radio. And there was a very interesting interview going on between the announcer on the program and a musician. And it was quite intriguing. And every now and then, the announcer would just put in some music, which seemed completely appropriate. And the music was interesting. Before long, there seemed to be a sort of presence was available.

And there was an openness. And that openness was great. And the music was, I'd say that there was a lot of presence. A lot of presence in the music and everything. I was still there. And I was enjoying the music. And I was appreciating what was happening. And it just seemed that there was a recognition that what was happening was love. And then the other example is yesterday when my wife sort of jokingly told me that she'd had a little accident on the way home in the car. And then there was no openness. Everything closed down. And then. It was just I. And me reacting to the situation.

And yeah, it was terrible because she managed to scrape the side of the against the hardest possible point you could find on a Toyota Hilux, which is the mud, the bumper bar at the back of the corner. And so this bumper bar on the back of the. Hilux. Had a few little specks of orange paint on it. And that's all. And you could polish it off. And it sort of ripped open, almost ripped open. That's what it felt like. And it was really personal. It was like it had been wounded. So that's just. And that was really shut down, painful, isolated, separate, a whole bit.

Nothing like a car accident, so to bring out the meat. I have a new car during the week and it's just the thought of it. It's like a car I don't care about for so long. I think I want to care about more. That's a wonderful example of how peculiar the identification can be. Identification with the nation, with the possessions, with the roles. It's amazing. I have a couple of comments here. And we are about to go for lunch, hopefully. Oh, Judith says, stunning Kat, I love your explanation and I love the innocence. Don't take credit, good or bad. Thank you both Kat and Bob.

Yes. This is that simple, Joe, thank you. And Tanya says, wow, Kat, what you said about identity as a seeker and questions really landed here. No need to ask any more questions. The questions do indeed seem to keep the attention on the story rather than life I am. I would like to say more, but I am speechless with more silence, peace and stillness here. That's beautiful. Byron was just saying that people can't land in silence and Tanya just did. And Amarnath, question the questionnaire, not the content of the question. Wonderful point, Amarnath, absolutely. Me appears as others, two sides of the same coin. And thank you for the most resonating, illuminating and beautiful meeting, says Tanya.

Love you all. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I suppose who's asking the question about what's going to happen in the future, that sort of thing. And then conceptualizing again, but the idea of trust came up and it's like if you have trust in the fact that you are this, then that's when the seeking will stop. Because the seeking is kind of distrust in a sense, isn't it? Trust is trust. It's really confidence.

A confidence, yeah. Because it's not a belief, it's a certainty. But it may and it does for some people start as a sense of trust and... I think as Westerners we don't like the term faith, just because... and then it gets watered down, I guess they use trust instead of faith, but then also you hear confidence instead of faith as well. Do you believe that you are or you know it for certain? The problem with it is we all have absolute certainty that we exist and we are conscious. We just think that that's not enough. We think there is more to it and we look for the answer, what is more?

What else do I have to grasp or understand? It's absolutely nothing that needs to be grasped or understood. You are absolutely confident that you exist. And you know that you are conscious. That is it. If you can relax in that and if you can have trust, confidence, faith, whatever you want to call it, in the fact of your existence, sat chit ananda, I'm being, I'm conscious, and I wouldn't prefer to die right now. So that is the reality, sat chit ananda, existence, consciousness, peace or stillness. But we want... the seeking mind wants something else, give me something more. There must be some sense of... you know, some food for the mind.

No, relax that seeker and land in the certainty of existence. I am and I know it. Do we exist? Do we exist? Try and not be. The question was do we exist? What exists? Is the image, is the phantom, is the imagined persona? Try and not be. Just for five minutes. Just try it right now. If you can stop being. You are existing. You are existing. See if you can... You are existing. And now defining that existence. Existence is. Now what you define the existence as, the costume you put on it, that can be questioned and thrown away. But the fact of existence cannot. Keep trying not to be and that is your certainty.

From any perspective. And every perspective. And every perspective. And every perspective. I think you are, I look at you and I just feel wonderful. Your a really nice guy and your a really gentle and you have this beautiful way of expressing your thoughts and everything you say is absolute bullshit. But I just love you. Love you to bits. Love you to bits. He loves you. Doesn't everyone here love this guy? All I'm saying is don't worry. I mean, God shows up in all these different ways, you know. And I use the word God, you know, even though Bob doesn't like it. Yeah, I don't feel constrained in that way, you know.

I'm not saying that's a constraint, Bob, at all. It is a very good point, actually. It works for you, not for everyone. I think all I'm saying is, you know, just be free and let it all show up the way it might show up. You know, it was an accident with your wife. It wasn't that beautiful in the end, right? When you brought all those ideas together in one package and you saw the beauty of the, you know, in the pain and suffering, so-called, for a moment, and it all became one singular beautiful experience, didn't it? Yeah. Happening in awareness and swirling around. The indescribability of the Hilux.

Yeah. That's right. Yeah, you're right. If we don't go right now, we won't go. Yeah, sorry, guys. I have another comment from Jane saying that all stories, none of them real, including me story. And love you guys. Hope everyone. Have a great rest of the day. And the rest of the afternoon, this is from JB. And so deep down under, do we know anything? Do we need to? And now, yes, we're going to have to wrap it up and go for lunch because otherwise, unfortunately, I'm working a couple of hours. So I can't go. So.