Sailor Bob and the group. Deconstruct the deconstructor! 9 Jan 2022

And now starting from saying all the names, so I'm cut. Jacinta. Cliff. Heidi. Sia. David. And Paul. Hi everyone. We talk about nothing here. But no thing. Everything. Everything is no thing. So, you, I and everything else must be that. That is all there is. That's what they call the absolute. What can you add to the absolute? Nothing. What can you take away from it? Nothing. Does it have any beginning? Does it have any ending? It is all there is. And what is means not was or not will be. It is right here. You, I and everything else is that. Because that is all there is.

All seemingly appears on the basic screen of space, which is empty, silence and stillness. Space is no thing. Has no center to it. Has no shape. Has no form. Has no beginning. No end. But can you postulate or think of anything that could be out of space? What would it be in? It would have to be in space. And if you have a look at it, investigate and have a look and see that all things, space is no thing. Yet all things appear in space. So the seeming things are no thing. And you know that innately. Because you are a thing, I am a thing, the trees are a thing, the flowers are a thing.

All this manifestation are things which we put labels on our words and take, give the shape and the form, the pattern, the appearance that it is expressing as, as something. As we just pointed out, something is no thing. So there is no beginning. So there is no beginning, no ending. Time is a concept also. Look into that. Ask yourself is there a past if I don't think about it. And realize, without a thought, you can't say that there is a past or a future, a beginning or an end. Everything, so-called thing is just as it is. Appearance. And so on. And so on. And so on.

And so on. And so on. And so on. That's why they call it a phenomenal manifestation. And the dictionary definition of phenomena is that which appears to be. So it's all appearing, seemingly so, but they say that the manifestation is a phenomenal manifestation, and the definition of phenomena is that which appears to be. So it's all appearance, it's all seemingly so. Human patterns, we call human patterns, we take to be real, purely and simply because we never question, never look into it. How did you come into existence? Or you say, I was born, but can any one of you actually remember your birth? You can't.

We had no words, so how could you say anything without any words? And you lived for the first couple of years, you lived your life without any words. Then you learnt words from your so-called parents, and from then on we've taken a word to be real. But is the word real? Just have a look, take the word water, can you drink it? Can you swim in it? Can you wash in it? Does the word fire burn your mouth? Can you cook with it? Can you heat yourself? What's this word, I or me? If you look at it, just another concept. That's all that words are.

It's ideas, images, thoughts. As we pointed out, I went to go, the word's not the thing, it's not the real. You can't drink the word water, you can't cook with it. You won't drown in it. What are you without the word? You can't say anything at all, can you? And that's what you know for the first couple of years of your life. Before you learnt any words, you were living without the word. Now that doesn't tell you that you are prior to the word. You are before the word. The absolute. The great perfection. That's how they put it in Buddhism. Call it the great perfection.

What can you add to the perfect? Nothing. What can you take away from it? Nothing. It wouldn't be perfect. So they give it to you in one sentence there. The great perfection is non-conceptual awareness. And there's that word awareness. Anyone who is unaware right now, and you realise, no, I'm not unaware. Anyone who is unconscious. No. That's what they call it in the Hindu scriptures. Sat Chit Nanda. Namah Rupa. That's the non-dual. One without a second. Non-dual. Not two. One without the other. And have a look at that. And all this manifestation is appearing dualistically. And it couldn't be any other. Because there's nothing inseparable.

Nothing's inseparable. No division in it whatsoever. It's all the one essence. That's vibrating into seeming patterns, shapes and forms. Which are patterns, shapes and forms that expresses everything. And you are that. A better term, intelligence energy. But you are the one. You are the one. You are the one. You are the one. Don't use the term God or higher power. Because you get confused with that term. God. Because you look in all the great traditions. They've all got different interpretations of what they believe God is. And so my God can be superior to your God. Or better than your God. Or this that and the other.

But it tells you in the Bible in the beginning it was the Word. The Word was with God. The Word was God. That's all that God is. A different, another label we put on the thought. Things. They call us a thing which we believe is a greater thing. A higher thing. As God. All things were made by Him. By the Word. And isn't that true? Have a look at this manifestation around you. Is there anything out there that they haven't put the label or the word on? And there was nothing made that was made without the Word. Taken on the Word. And believed in the Word.

Which I just pointed out. The Word's not the thing at all. It's divided. It's a vibrating pattern of energy. Word is sound. What's sound? Vibration. What's a vibration? A movement of energy. So it vibrates and appears. And it appears dualistically in its opposite. Now there's nothing either good or bad. As Shakespeare pointed out. Four or five hundred degrees. But thinking makes it so. It's learning the Word and putting the Word on it. We're discriminated. Divide the Word. The indivisible. The inseparable. The no-thingness. Into something. And it needs to be recognized. My this body. Well you know you're not the body. Because you say my body.

Don't you say my house. My car. My coat. You know you're not the coat. The car or the house. So maybe you're not the body either. Same with either. Are you the mind? Are you the body and the mind? Have a look. What's the body made up of? The body's made up of elements. Air, earth, fire, water, space. If you think you're separate from the elements. Take the air out of your body. See how long you'd last without the air. Take the body temperature. The heat. The fire. See how long it lasts without the element. Take the water. Your body's made up of 80% water.

You can't separate yourself from that. Get off the earth if you can. Get out of space. Separate yourself from the space. You realize you can't separate yourself from these elements. All these elements can be broken down into subatomic particles. Into pure energy. All that's in it is just vibrating pattern of energy. It's somewhat of a movement. An activity. Same with the mind. You say my mind. You say my mind. I can say my house, my car. Well, can anyone show me a thing called mind? I can't find anything I can say is mind. And when I look into it, there's nothing there apart from thought.

I call it thinking. It thinks. It states things like my mind and my body. What is thought? Isn't thought sound? Word? Idea? Image? It's all the so-called thoughts. It's all the so-called thoughts. It's all the so-called thoughts. What the mind is, it's all vibration. It's all the so-called thoughts. A movement of energy. So that's all that's seemingly going on. A movement of energy. So that's all that's seemingly going on. Patterns, shapes and forms appearing, playing around and disappearing. But still only no thing. But still only no thing. No substitute to it or no independent nature. And the no thing is the everything. Is the no thing.

So no thing has ever happened. Though it appears to be so. What we've done we've separated it. And see how that functions. Shakespeare says there's nothing either good or bad but what you think about it and it's thinking that's divided it. We think it's something that's good, that's bad, that's the way the mind functions. Pleasant, painful, happy, sad. Always in the interrelated opposites. Always in the interrelated opposites. But what's happening there is we're dividing it. We think the good and the bad, the pleasant and the painful and the happiness are two separate things. But they're not. They're the one thing, the one stick that has two ends to it.

that has two ends to it. And so we want the good and we don't want the bad. We want the pleasure, we don't want the pain. We're dividing the indivisible conceptually. But it's always been the one essence. The good and the bad. We divide it and never will. Have a look and see how that functions. Well something comes up in your mind and you like it. How do you know? Well I've experienced this before and it's good. We've called it good. And we don't want the bad things to be there, we only want the good. Not realising that everything is transient. It's a constant change, constant vibrating.

There's nothing solid or substantial or static anywhere in it at all. anywhere in it at all. It's all appearing to be so. So we don't want it to change. So what do we do? We resist it. We resist it. We try to keep it there. I want the good things, not realising how much you love them, how much you want to keep them there. It won't happen. Because they're transient. Everything is transient in this body right now. You haven't got the same body you had a minute ago. It's constantly changing. Cells are being replaced and life essence is constantly transient. So no matter how much you love them or want to keep it there, it's going to change anyway.

So we don't want it to go, we resist it. Trying to keep it there. And don't you realise resistance is conflict? When you are resisting it, I don't want this, I try to keep it, you're in conflict. And any conflict you are in makes you anxious, depressed, guilty, unhappy, feared. That's uneasiness. Another word for unease is dis-ease. You're not at ease anymore. There's resistance, conflict and disease going on in your mind. Something comes up and you don't like it. You shouldn't be thinking that thought. That's not the right thought to have. So what do we do? We try to push it away. And trying to push it away we're resisting it again.

More conflict. More uneasiness or disease. That's what's going on in our life all the time. The constant conflict that's going on. Makes us fearful, anxious, depressed, unhappy, guilty to the believed in me. Only me that can be fearful. Only me that can be unhappy. Only me that can be guilty or depressed. And me is the cause of all the psychological suffering that's going on. And isn't that what so-called karma is? Cause and effect? What happens if I look into the cause, the me, and try and find the me? Is there such a thing as me? That has no substance. If I ask myself the question of me as the cause, can there be an effect without a cause?

Well there can't be. What could it relate to? The cause and effect of relationship, relativity, dualism. And there is absolutely no duality and non-duality. That's why I need to investigate this cause me and see what the me is. Am I this body? Am I this mind? No, I'm not the body. My body, my mind. When I investigate and see that there's no such thing as a body, or a mind, or a person, all appearances, all seemingly so. Am I unaware right now? They call it Sat Chit Ananda Namah Rupa. They're the five factors of Advaita. Sat is existence. Chit is consciousness. Ananda is loving to be.

And the other two factors are the name. Namah Rupa, name and form, they say, am I. They're illusion. Anyone who is not existing right now, and you realise, no, I'm existing, I'm here. So you are existing. Anyone who is not unconscious or unaware right now, again you'll say, no, I'm not unconscious, I am aware right now. Anyone who's not happy to be right now, well none of you want to be dead right now. So you already are. You are already that. But what's gone on, we believe we are this body, mind, entity. And haven't questioned it. So when we say I or me, we're not referring to the absolute, which we should be, we're referring to this patterned body, mind, this self-centre, this ego, this separate entity.

And that's the cause of all our problems. Relating to a fiction, instead of being a fiction. And that's the reason we've been recognising that whether you like it or not, whether you know it or not, you are the absolute. What can you add to the absolute? Not the least little thing, it wouldn't be absolute if you could. What could you take away from it? Nothing. Couldn't be absolute. So the good and the bad, they're not separate at all. They're two ends of the one stick, appearing as different. Everything is that one. And you are that one. You're not anything other. And we call one, it's not even one, because one, as soon as we imply there's one, there must be other.

And we're back into dualism. Dualism again, as soon as we're relating to the one. So start with the fact you are already that. Absolute. Stay with that. Don't move away from it. And realise and recognise that is all the real thing. There is. There is nothing other than that. And innately you know it. That's the great mantra. And don't you know that already? Because, hey, that's the chair you're sitting on. That's the space we're in. That's the room we're in. Look outside and that's a tree. That's a flower. That's the stars. Everything is already that. There is nothing separate or apart from that. But we discriminate it again with the word.

And as it says in the Bible, in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, the word was God. That's all that God is, is the word. We've learnt words. And realise for the first couple of years of your life you had no words. You were living without the word. That's why you can't remember your birth. Why can't you remember your birth if you had no words? How could you remember it? For the first two years of your life you had no words. But you lived alright without the word. And you can see, are you the word, the conceptual image, or are you the life itself?

And Christ told you, I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life. People thought he was talking about himself. He was talking about, wasn't he, he was talking about that sense of presence which is expressed intuition in every one of you right now is the lie. That's the life. That's the truth. Can any one of you say right now that I am not? You can say it, sure. You must realise there's something that's enabling you to say it. There is something there that's enabling it to be said. That is the life itself. What I call the life is the pure intelligence energy.

The activity of knowing. Intelligence is an activity. And each and every one of you right now are knowing. And knowing, but knowing is that I am. And knowing is that I am. And knowing is that I am. And knowing is that I am. Is there. That's intelligence. And intelligence is a movement. It's an activity. What's a movement or an activity? Energy. A vibration. That's what you are. Intelligence, energy. The activity of knowing. Each one of you is knowing right now. And that's how they express it again. Being, knowing and loving to be. Well negate your beingness if you can. You've taken yourself to be and you call yourself a human being.

And if you believe in this thing called God and if you believe in this thing called God you call God the supreme being. you call God the supreme being. What happens if you take that label supreme off What happens if you take that label supreme off and take away the label human? and take away the label human? Try and separate the beingness without a label. Can you say I am not? What enables you to be? What enables you to say it? If you were not, you wouldn't be able to say it. But it must be that life if you call it whatever label put on it won't be it anyway.

There's nothing no word you can put on it that is true. But it cannot be negated. But it cannot be negated. And you are that. You can say a few words if you want and if you've got any questions or any doubts bring it out tell us what your version is about it and each one of you has a bit of a grasp of it or you wouldn't be here. The reason you come here because you've looked in all the traditions and all the rest of it all religions and you've found there's something wanting in them something that hasn't dropped so you look somewhere further and it generally takes you to where you've got to go you look further until it's recognised and you've already that you've always been that and always will be that that is all there is.

So go ahead. I've got a comment we have about 27 up to people online with us so welcome everyone and we have a lot of messages with love and good morning to the whole group so good morning and then we have a nice comment from Primali thoughts which come not special they just come and go all the thoughts are like that, nothing beautiful Primali that's the point yeah what's your next thought going to be? you don't know but thinking happens you say I think what have you done? you've formed a subject, a thinker I think this thought you've formed an object, a thought an object, an object an object of thinking, thought can there be a thinker without thinking?

there can't be can there be the thought without thinking? there can't be so thinking is the actual the thinker and the thought that goes with seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling the ING is something that's happening and it's divided into subject, thinker and thought seeer and seen, taster and tasted you form dualism conceptually it's not so as Bob said, the word learning the language, conceptualising that overlay on the natural experiencing or being is the whole problem it's the sole problem I just had a conversation with my family on a whatsapp and they have all sorts of religions for example the religion I'm VAX or anti-VAX that's a religion that's catching a virus of the mind and being a believer or another virus of the mind oh I didn't get it yet or maybe there is something more to be understood I can't see it yet that's the virus of the mind there is an I and there is something to get and that imagined I and that imagined something to get are not one, they are two so this is the idea always a thought like Primadji says they just come and go, all the thoughts are like that, nothing, they're nothing I see that thought for what it is it's just a vibration, it's nothing it's a passing phenomena but I exist whether the thought is passing through or it's not passing through there is an existence there is a consciousness there is and there isn't but it can't be denied the fact that there is a knowing going on through this organism it's not a form it's not a thing but it's undeniable experiencing, it is happening and now the thought comes and says but that's not it there is something else to be heard or to be understood or to get and the attention goes to that thought attention is life essence or intelligence energy and suddenly that thought completely clouds over the plain basic obvious fact of existence and that thought becomes reality it becomes the truth it is believed into existence really imagined into being and it's not a thought it is so solidly believed that oh yes now I am that poor little me who has to keep chasing the enlightenment to re-liberate the little me from the suffering which is also imagined because it is also only happening in thinking and the drama goes on and to see that no thought is true the thought is only just the activity just like sweating of the skin no sweating is true it's just a passing phenomena as Bob was saying it's the phenomenal manifestation so everything that appears comes and goes thoughts, feelings, emotions, objects sounds, sights, sensations they all come and go they all have temporary appearance and disappearance but there is something or no thing when we relate it to a thinker yes that's a separate entity but there is something or no thing which enables it to appear to come and go and that's that open field of consciousness that I am in the I am everything comes and goes and that I am is not an object it can't be grasped it can't be found like eye can't see itself the tongue can't taste itself the consciousness cannot know itself because it's not an object of knowing and to even know itself it would have to become a subject knowing the object so what is known wouldn't be it but at the same time it can't be discarded it can't be denied because of it everything is and it's not even an it but what obscures it what takes us away from that obviousness lightness of plain awareness of existence joyous awareness of existence because if there is no idea that anything is wrong should be different or could be different there is nothing wrong the thought comes the attention goes to the thought the attention is drained away from that deliciousness of existence the miraculousness of being and is taken to realizing imagining that monster there the monster called I or the monster called I'm not getting it or I'm not it or I'm suffering, I'm victim, I'm not good enough I don't deserve to be loved and all that other stuff I have to keep improving on myself I have to be something to complete myself because I feel void that thought I and the idea of incompleteness they wanted the same any thought limits the open space of that knowing existence and this is really interesting because a lot of people when they hear that this is sky-like awareness or open space they would say oh but I don't feel open space I feel the consciousness is in the body I feel like I'm limitless of course it doesn't have any feeling it can't be felt as a very big or very small or very hot or very cold it can't be felt at all but it can't be denied did you want to say something?

yeah can I say something? yeah just wait I'll get you the speaker otherwise people online won't hear you it may need a little is it? yeah unfortunately yeah yeah yeah yeah that's alright we ready to go? yeah sorry for that I might have forgotten um no it's interesting um on the awareness and consciousness and um I'm coming from a perspective of let's say dependent origination which is just a concept also because everything is um but the um you know as we were asked you know is anyone not aware and is anyone not conscious and so on well certainly you know conventionally we experience that we're aware or we experience that we're conscious um and to sort of say no I don't well that's not true so conventionally but that awareness uh instead of now starting to think that's a reality that's some ultimate truth or consciousness see that awareness any awareness it depends on on a person and the person depends on some aggregates there's no there's no awareness just there you know so awareness depends basically on aggregates on some person no aggregates no person before we're like uh you can say well before we were born there was no aggregates there so there wouldn't have been there was no awareness that we know of um after we die there is no aggregates we can say so there's no awareness now in the interim duration we do experience awareness we experience consciousness in the interim but but now but that awareness and that consciousness is very much dependent on a body also aggregates or a person if there's no aggregates no person there's no consciousness and no awareness so the awareness or consciousness is a dependent thing it depends on a body depends on some aggregates so it's not a real thing so our awareness and consciousness not real you know it's everything that appears is not real it's it's sort of temporary it depends on other things um and so on and so even our awareness is not real not a real thing nothing's real you know there's no no reality no i'm just i'm just agree i'm not going to go into no no you can answer the question what's the difference the difference between what between he was saying there is no thing also yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no we're going to finish no go on just making the point that even awareness and consciousness is not an ultimate reality you know it's not something we can say there really is an awareness you know that there really is a thing you know that there is something called awareness or consciousness that's the you know um the point i i think the point you know in in the nagarjuna he's scathing on self nature essence beingness and so on and mainly because it makes no sense see if if there is self nature or essence or beingness that's an independent real thing it doesn't depend on anything else it's it's self-sufficient but there is no self-sufficient thing in the world you know that there's nothing that can just stand on its own without depending on anything else and that includes an absolute or the ultimate or god or anything at all so you know everything depends on something else and you know i mean some someone yeah so yeah well you can see this but but i'm getting the impression can be that there is a reality that's unmovable not dependent our true nature and so on that's not transient and so on and basically you know what is the ultimate nature there is no ultimate nature yeah there you go and that's what nagarjuna is saying also that you can't separate and that's what he's pointing out he's pointing out where we point out you know well not we but others point out there is that good and bad there is a difference he's pointing out that they're not separate at all the two ends of the one stick that's all it's doing where the others point out there's seemingly something as you're saying they think you know that people think there's something but there's not and also there is there is always a conflict in defining like some people define awareness as a solid block of nothing that's not a thing it's a nothing some others define awareness and i tend to define it in this way it's like awareness as a field or empty space is a potentiality for the consciousness to exist consciousness will not exist if there is no brain as such as a we understand it or or any movement of energy the body the body of a cell or whatever it is so yes it depends on the aggregate but in this definition awareness as a potentiality it neither exists nor it doesn't just like you see the electricity flowing when you switch on the light you can say there is electricity you can measure it but the moment you flick the switch off it isn't there but potentially it is so it neither is nor is it isn't and it's not like there's there's this this awareness and things are happening in it you know it's not a thing you know like there's everything happens in the potentiality which is not as well see overall there's nothing happening you know which Bob knows and what Bob's saying he's saying a lot of you know very much i agree with a lot you know um and i'm just getting down to the finer um technical areas like like even of that you know you are that it's indicating that i am something there is some essence there could be well that's what you know it could but i know Bob know you know when but but it comes over you so i wouldn't sort of i just avoid that that i am that sort of thing because um that's a an indicating a something in a in a sense and uh there's really nothing you could say um yeah there's nothing you could say you're totally right the words are always dualistic can you conceptualize it though it's not conceptual whatever so it can't be described can you get the speaker click i was just saying it's not it's not conceptual so it can't be described i mean we can try and describe it and classify it but it's it's beyond it's beyond thought yeah and and yet uh even though it's beyond words words are our very way of coming to this even though and no but if we think that that that words we think that you know that there is some entity that refers to a word we think say the word god refers to some entity some you know whatever it is so we know that that that the words are always going to be misleading um but you know without words we are not going to get anywhere at all that's our medium and um but if we put our confidence in the words well we're going to get bamboozled thank you very much point out that the word is not the thing like for the first you weren't born with any words for the first two years your life you lived without words so that means what what does that mean that means you are prior to the word you're prior to thought the life was in that pattern shape and form before it had any words so you were prior to the word anyway so we're prior to mind prior to anything and it's all no thing that periods everything as i say can i can i say a prior is not our experience you know um um uh something prior how would we know that we we we can only know that from from where we are well and and so there we're not prior you know there's no such thing again there can't be a prior um and someone asked someone asked um you know a question you know i think it was you know the nagajune or whoever it was you know um um asked him about a beginning and he said i don't nothing is known about it you know um as against a prior what's a nothing is known about it so i don't you know put myself as a prior all all you know what you sound as to put yourself into it at all there's no self such but prior you had no words for it you had no words for the first couple of years of your life what can you remember about that yet there's a knowing that you were there and also i i wonder if that's really productive to just uh tear the words because you're totally right tony no word and and cliff nicely highlighted it it is about the non-conceptual the knowing without the any words without any discarding space that word word god word awareness and that's that's really just the mental no verbal they call it ugly word verbal masturbation it's it takes you nowhere it's a waste of time because you have different definition of what awareness or non-awareness is but what we actually pointing to is when the mind stop chatting and analyzing and blah blah blah blah this said that one the other sub said the other one and that book says yet something else and the just discard completely that overlay of thinking and land in that natural experience of of existence yeah but you are transmitting concepts conceptualizing here we can hear it you are speaking words you are speaking concepts you can't speak non-concepts yeah uh you see you have to come and sit here because it's just unsustainable and i have few things uh yeah just sit here tony just just here just here just here that was their first yeah yeah just sit here and uh well i was just uh i'm just saying i have no viewpoint and if everyone can say that and now i know i know it does seem and i i appreciate you your laugh but it's it's i it's very interesting you know in in the manner that i'm just using was supposedly the second buddha and all he does is deconstruct um and others viewpoints so that's what i'm doing here i'm just picking in a sense and it's a it's it's um viewpoints whether these viewpoints make sense or not and if the viewpoint is sort of alluding to self-nature essence something real something existing something that's really there then that becomes unintelligible because there is no such thing that we know of that can stand on its own without depending on anything else at all nothing at all you know and but we aspire to that we don't like this impermanent thing that's perishing and so on and we want something more permanent you know something you know that will last yet don't worry about that that's the most important thing well i'm i'm not talking for myself of course we don't like this we like this yeah this is all talking to just indicate where so we can understand and and we speak the language where where people are i'm you know i'm speaking as though there's a me here and there's people here and so on is that the reality no but but where would we go that that's the conventional truth that's a conventional we wouldn't get anywhere without convention and conventional turns out to be the ultimate anyway not that there is such a a real ultimate don't know see see the there's just the question you know becomes does you know you know does our theories and that do they hold up to scrutiny and the only the only one the only theory that i'm i'm scrutinizing yes which is the the one that everyone's caught up in is self-nature uh you know existence inherent existence and so on and and that can be an inherently existing ultimate or god or something like that and i you know see an inherently existing tree doesn't stand up because it's impermanent it's not it's not a permanent thing but you know an inherently existing suffering doesn't stand up because it's also impermanent and it can change and disappear and but an inherently existing ultimate or a god likewise that doesn't stand up you know just like a tree depends for its existence on other factors like water like you know it needs leaves and branches you know it's dependent the tree is dependent so it's not an independent thing it's not something substantial with its own nature nothing is we are not a an independent entity you know that can exist on our own we depend on bodies on an aggregate so we need food and so on so there is no independent thing which bob has been pointing out all along um there's no such thing and now i extend that a bit further that there is no there is no independent god or or essence or anything like that you know or of that you know there's nothing and i'm not saying could someone else have a go would you like to say something not about this just i've just got a different question thanks thank you um yeah because the top the clock's ticking um yeah just just a question um and i have asked this before so i'm a bit uncertain um you say like when we're young before we don't have words now i have clear recollection of memories in the womb of my birth and of other things right so i have i have clear recollection i've had that for years i had no words so i've always been puzzled i've heard other people say this that when you don't have words you don't have memories but that's that's just not my experience now so i'm not quite sure you know yes i have memories i have pictures i have pictures now hang on pictures and feelings so um i'm assuming that's the sort of an ongoing awareness you know that is is present and i had another question about awareness that i want to ask because this all been really interesting it's just that i've i've got some questions that's all so the business of no words no memories i just don't that's not i haven't found that to be true i don't know where that idea comes from what what words were you using then well i was just using words to describe something that was feeling that was feeling and that was sensations pictures pictures you know clear memories i can i can i you know stuff that i can remember that i was um feeling but i had no words at the time so i don't quite know why people say words and memories are attached because i just that's not my experience but is that a theory because i've heard people with your experience it's your experience it's my experience yes so you believe the time is real and there was a past in which you didn't have brain your brain wasn't developed and yet the there was a recording made in the brain that didn't exist yet yeah so the the easy explanation is if you understand there is no past and the memory and the past and the whole projections of the childhood and everything is happening right now right now you can project and you can inspire and you can imagine and you can because that's what what this is it's incredible improviser you could you can absolutely you can improvise 10 of the past lives right now it doesn't mean that they happened because they're only happening now because that's the only time that we know of does it does it mean does it mean could it mean that it's happening now that they they didn't happen or they could have happened you know could it be either way how would we know either way whether they did or didn't happen if you are a believer if you believe in your religion is time that time is real then absolutely you can also believe that it was real but if you know for the fact that you have never experienced a time other than this moment then the idea of of reality of the past just drops away that's interesting so it's sort of just down to your belief system well it's a very interesting question all right just this just one one other question which is not about this um just so and i might i might be misunderstanding the bigger explanation you've both given about i suppose i would just call it what's reality what's existence right because i haven't read the theory of this i mean i've come across it before in buddhist retreats and other you know all the zillions other stuff i've done as i say up every gum tree but um that if sort of where i've got to is just that most of what happens is just a creation of the mind you know most of what we call experience or my i'll just talk about myself i can't speak for others it's just it's just some interpretation coming out of a belief system um whatever so what's left after that is it just that there's um where i got to was because i've i've had a lot of experience of energy working with energy and i've had a lot of experience of energy working with energy and i've had a lot of experience of energy working with energy feeling energy in all different ways um so i have my understanding is there's just what we call existence is mostly just a vibration it's just an energy and and then we're part of an energy field that's all that i and that what i call the only thing i can figure out that's real is that's some awareness i'm having through this energy field now is that wrong or is it just there is no my awareness there's just the energy field yeah is that it that's absolutely okay okay not the smallest thing can be added to it or taken away from it absolutely and when we say absolute i already answered tony it doesn't mean there is something there is something that you can grab describe put the circumference around no it's the potentiality it's like there is an energy field when there is a potentiality for the energy there is no potentiality for the energy there is no potentiality for the energy there is no thing and when there is a movement there is an experiencing there is maya there is a dance of shakti there is all the what you call conventional and i do appreciate the deconstructing but the deconstructing can get too theoretical when you stop looking at the moon and keep focusing on the dirt behind the finger on the finger that is pointing this is not really what it this is just not helpful i mean the whole idea of deconstructing any beliefs any thoughts any concepts should start from the concept of i or me and then you see how the world follows as you were pointing out the thinker the thought the seer the scene the body the world all of that existing together deconstruction is really helpful very helpful it is the point is to deconstruct you may actually hold on to a concept and just overlook where the concept is trying to point because the concept is trying to point beyond the concepts the thought is trying to point beyond the thinking to that open field of non-conceptual existence which you can't deny now as much as you want to say i don't exist i'm unconscious you still have to be there to even say it so this is what we point to and this is experiential experiential we can call it reality but this is not a thing called reality it is the the positively assured experiencing going on right now there is an experiencing it doesn't have taste flavor it doesn't have location size shape but the existence i am you can tell me that i am not it doesn't matter whether it is real or not it is being it doesn't need to to deconstruct that experience you have to be first so you are and then you can blah blah blah deconstruct your being as unrealistic who cares you are first that you can't go beyond the fact that to deconstruct anything you first have to be and now instead of wasting time on deconstruction you can land stride into that undeniably undeniability of being and find yourself home you want to keep talking and thinking you best of luck keep talking and thinking because deconstruction is an activity of the mind can you understand that when you pause the concepts i think it's gone on too long you should open the floor to other people yeah okay yeah yeah it's it's not fair this is a group talking and thinking okay let me read thank you sue and i'll read uh i don't know if everyone heard that she says it's unfair that nobody's going to do it fair that nobody else has the voice so hold it for a moment and i'll just read for uh comments from online unless anyone on the floor would like to oh yes oh yeah please please yeah i would just like to say um i was going to be running late today and i just said to myself i'm going to be here at 10 30 and normally when you're running late the mind says don't be late don't be late don't be late but i just let the whole thing go i got every green traffic light i didn't spared and there was no nothing in the mind i was just driving just in my complete natural being and i was here by 10 30 and that's the simplicity of being thank you sounds good i'm just thinking about what is being said look we start off with that the only thing you can't deny is your own existence so if it's just existence everything else can be denied so why not just leave it at that everything else everything else comes up as concepts and words and if you're saying that one viewpoint is right over another viewpoint well that's only a viewpoint in itself so so uh why um yeah you don't get too hung up on all all that i just find some of it fascinating though but we're talking about nama ruba you know name and form but that seems to be a bit of a thing but that seems to be a bit of a thing maybe what the thinking gets preoccupied with name and thought form you know the things or the thoughts um the mind seems to turn away at that and when the mind's turning away at name and form you know the so-called you know the concept of i or the experiencer of the name and form comes into into play then and then you start to realize you're heading down a whole a whole story in that in that area but it's just interesting that the mind goes there and then we're talking about name and memory and yeah i'm not so sure whether you whether it's naming that creates memory but you certainly have to you have to use name to recall memory i suppose that when you recall a memory you're giving it a a conceptual idea or you're putting a a form in it in the so-called present moment yeah anyway that's that's just i'll throw that in yeah i'm not sure if there's a question in this it's just a curiosity around um what you mentioned about the pre words and that early years um before we have the words and i'm thinking of babies and i was also the death process i was very fortunate to fortunate or not my mom passed away about a week ago and i was with her the last very very closely the last couple of days and um and there was a similarity between what i observed with newborns where even though they don't have the words there's a temperament there there's an obvious personality and and this then takes me to the memories of when i'm hearing about the stories about the buddhas that are born and they recognize oh this is the reincarnation of this person from the past how do you know that because look at the way it's giggling or that temperament that it comes in with so and also i'm going all over the place but then in our culture we also have post death because now we're doing is a 40-day ritual where whatever i recognized as my mum's raw temperament or personality at those last minutes because she did kind of regress she seemed to be back into that child like space um um does she take that temperament with her when she crosses and is that why there's a 40-day ritual in our culture where after the death there's a continuation of this unword and un no word personality that exists and does that personality that crosses over can it come back later as that same cluster of temperaments that can be recognized by other people using words i don't know if i'm making sense and pre-words and that there's still something there before we have the words a personality yeah yeah yeah sure just like animals they don't have any words at all and they have distinguishable personality we have two cuts they're completely different they're siblings they're called in the text and the scriptures it's absolute whatever can you add to the absolute and what can it can you take away from it if it's absolute and you can divide it up and that's what happens and that's what naga jenna is pointing to he says like he says that when they take the good and the bad well they're separating it he says even the so-called bad is absolute if you'd like to call it that the division comes only comes about with thinking if you don't think about it what's can you say about it and you can't say about it if you don't think about it you can't say about it if you don't think about it can you say about anything did you hear the question about reincarnation what about it her mom passed away a couple of days ago and she could feel that there was the energy the raw personality coming out of the body and is the question is is that raw energy formulated as a temperamental personality traveling anywhere and it's going to come back and be recognizable like you know dalai lamas or well if it's absolute where does it come from it's a pattern shape and form appearing in it where where you know if the life comes out of that absolute where must it go when the when the pattern is sprucing through goes it must go back into the absolute but you think you get the same pattern back out of it again you won't get the same drop of water out of the ocean initially there might be but someone is attuned to that yes it's still the energy it's still the same energy that's what it is i've got some questions on reincarnation because um if you've got a minute so it's not something i attach any importance to now right but in the past i used to do a lot of healing work and whether i was making it up or seeing it i don't know i could i could see what looked like real past lives right other people now of my own and others i saw heaps of them and i thought they were never much fun none of us were cleopatra you know they're all just um um pain and suffering for the most part so at the time if i was doing healing work i could often say something okay here's an illness it seems to have they seem to have brought it with them from some sort of old memory now i haven't got i don't know you know it seemed to help doing that i don't do that work anymore um but i saw a hell of a lot of it you know past life stuff so you know is it is it for real or is it just a collection of um memories or is it some sort of projection they seem to help and you know um i've seen tons of it to me it's not a novelty and i don't even want to see it but and it was sort of helpful at the time when i had a certain belief system so is it all crap or is it just the mind creating entertainment if it's absolute there's nothing being separate ever separated nothing being added it's all it's just activity and an activity appearing the whole world is interpretation of the energy like your eyes are accustomed through the words through the feelings sensations everything is interpreted to the point that you project the world as you see it and that's why we call it maya so if that world is maya even more the world of the dream or the world of the past life so the memories is part of maya it's not something that is the passing parade of your beliefs passing part of the belief system yeah i am today at this minute okay i would like to also do a one quick comment yeah just a quick one because i i have quite a few comments online and i'd like to include if no one died in the first place no one was born in the first place no one can die who is it that can reincarnate yeah yeah yeah what what she's saying is the cluster of energetic patterns vibrations patterns of whatever the behavior yeah there's some sort of a advocates of a big aggregate but there's no self that's born or died or reincarnated no there's no sense that's right okay i'll just get now into the few comments that we got from people who are with us we had about 30 people now and there is yeah we have amarnath thinker itself is a thought that is the separate center do not existing on which whole building of thoughts created nothing is coming and going there is no contact at all so what tony was just saying if there is no personal self that is being born or is being incarnated what would reincarnate so amarnath is saying the thinker itself is a thought the idea of personal self itself is just an idea so uh tanya says there is a resistance to how the lower body looks so as you say there is this ease okay you got it you got it i can't even let go of the ideas around this as there is no thinker there is no thought that focusing on strength of what the lower body does naturally is the way to go even going beyond the thought and just being i can see this story is about an image body image all appearances bodies are beautiful right they are as they are nothing neither good or bad but thinking makes it so so thank you tanya yes there may be a habitual sort of a concept brought up from a whatever traumatic childhood or judgment that this doesn't look right or it should be different just see it for what it is you just see the concept and you know it's just a thought and as primali was saying no thought is true and now primali says thanks so much bob and kat and now amarnath says there is only one all bodies are just an appearance or illusion in that they are neither beautiful nor ugly beyond words and thoughtlessness language thinking ceases right sorry armand doesn't use punctuation so language and thinking ceases prior to thought or words yeah yeah that's that's right amarnath yeah nothing is beautiful or ugly ugly all beyond concepts beyond judgments hunter whenever i try to form any question on this topic they seem to fall apart as our form as i formulate them is there any question really worth asking if you know being even this question seems to follow that path yeah that's beautifully said yeah what questions really what are not worth asking if you really know that that's another obscuration to that magnificence of being amarnath says i or me is a phantom building phenomenal and amarnath also says questioner itself is a question which is a phantom yep questioning happens and the conceptualized questioner and question are on the two ends of it and now tanya says beautiful amarnath thank you that really helps beyond word thought language and thinking there is peace that has been sought i am that peace and amarna says beautiful whatever we label all labels is false awareness or self or god and british julia is it any different to the night time dream when you wake up you realize it wasn't real something witnesses it yeah good point yeah good point there is always that knowing even in the night dream in a daydream in the imagination in the engagement with the sensory projected world there's always the knowing underlying it it is the same much the same one could say although every moment is fresh and new and different vivek says sat chit anand awareness equals awareness equal existing equal just be and amarna says sat chit anand equals awareness equals existing equal just be and amarna says sat chit anand equals awareness equals existing equal just be and amarna says sat chit anand equals existing equal just be beautiful even the waking state also a dream waking from waking state is really nothing to witness everything is phenomenon happening in non-phenomenal self yeah that's nicely said non-phenomenal self it means there is no cell so everything we could say happens in the no self but again no self seems that there is a um every word always has to be a no self but again no self seems that there is a um every word always has to be a no self always has its opposite.

And it only, everything that word represents only exists as the opposite to its opposite. Like even the form exists because there is a space around it, the darkness because the light is known. So it really pointing beyond words is pointing beyond even the deconstruction of words because ultimately deconstruction is another activity to be deconstructed. And British Julia says, nothing or nobody wakes up, just a recognition. That's exactly right. There is no one to wake up. The waking up is from the one. We are dreaming to be the one, the self, the body mind, the entity, the individual. And dropping away that dream is called waking up.

There is no one who waking up. You're dreaming a dream you call the world. Stop walking for ways out as the Sarcadet says. Yes. The dream is not your concern. Your concern is you love one part of the dream and not the other. Just love all of it or none of it and the rest will be done for you. And it does. If you're not taking a stance anywhere, the living just expresses as it expresses continually. In other words, the differentiation creates the differentiator. The fact of differentiation. I like this. I don't like this. I want that. I don't want that. I am like this.

I should be like that. That's exactly. That's just conceptualizing. That's just the words. The words create the illusion of the thinker. How then do people take a stand against evil in the world? I mean, I won't, I can like, where I've got to on understanding is that you can take a stand. I mean, without being attached to your feelings about it. But, you know, do people then never take a stand on anything? Well, I'd rather say it differently, but OK, Bob, you say that. This is what I said and this is what I could have pointed out. Love all of it or none of it and the rest will be done for you.

What's your? And if you find yourself on the barricade fighting for the animal rights or something, you just find yourself there. This is not you. The individual. This is not the imagined entity who is taking the stance because it believes in good and bad. It is the natural tendency. Yeah. So you just discover yourself where you are. Let's just say, if you feel like taking a stand, take a stand. But if you don't, it comes naturally. It's like you're not even the doer of it. You just see what the body is doing. Yeah. That's all. You mightn't be consistent about the stand either. It might come.

To take a stand. One day and not the next. OK. I'll just repeat what Tony was saying because he didn't have a speaker. He just reiterated that no one incarnates and no one reincarnates. Yes. What we're basically pointing to is that the self that we imagine ourselves to be is basically imagined. We imagine that there is someone living there in the head or in the heart. There is an entity who has free will, choices, preferences, tastes. Likes, dislikes. And when we look inside, we can't find that there is anybody there. So we only find that there is a hardware, the body, or computer, and the software, which is the mind, the conditioning, the way it responds to certain sounds or sights.

But it is like a self-organizing universe, one could say, which does not have any driver there. There is no captain there that is driving this ship. It is responding to the environment because it is not, separated from the environment. And it is powered, one could say, if we use the analogy of the computer, it is powered by, let's say, the electricity in the battery or through the cord. But it doesn't matter. Just some sort of energy. And what we are is not the body, is not the personality, is not the software of the mind, but the plane energy, which through the body expresses us personality, through the lamp expresses us the light, through the toaster expresses us the heat.

Yes. Through the tree expresses us the tree-ness. We are not separate from the body. But we are not. The energy expresses us the body, us the thoughts of the body. Different vibration constitutes matter. Different vibration constitutes thinking, seeing, hearing. It is just the field of energy which appears to be something. But because it's just one field, in one body it appears, in one position. But perhaps some souls have done more work over the eons capacity for the knowing that. Can you pass it on? The knowing that. Yeah, can you repeat that? I'll try and repeat that. So I hear what you're saying about the machine and the energy that flows through.

But what about like the soul? Can it have over the eons, but then that's assuming time, of course. Yes. In the story. In the story. Yes. In the story. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So you're saying it appears to be that there's some souls that have that knowing of what we're talking about – Yes. Yes. They're all the spark . It's over source, yes. So I can define it as a cluster of this particular advanced knowing souls. Yes. We just call it stories. It still seems to be there are stories Yes. Yes. that have got a greater capacity of knowing that.

Yes. And they're real when you believe them, so you have to be a believer of the story to make them real. Okay. And we are about investigating what's there minus the beliefs. We take away all the religions and beliefs and see what's real right here, right now, beyond the time, beyond the mind. So in the story, they all are... In our collective story, there appears to be what we call avatars or masters that have come. Yes. I don't seem to... They all appear in the story, in the legends. And in this particular time, I don't see any living masters now. There just seems to be a lot of mindlessness.

There are people who believe that they are bigger than Jesus and Buddha. And for them, they exist because they believe it. But we are not about the beliefs. There is no existence here. Okay. Before all beginnings, not always... It's just another story. Can I just say, the reality is not in finding the soul or finding an avatar, but the reality and the certainty, for me, it's easy. It's not finding. That's what I'm certain about, is not finding anything. If I think I've found something, I'm not going to have any certainty at all. You know, it's very easy in actually not finding a soul. That's like very zen.

Like, if that's not it, that's not it. If you think you've found something, that's not it. That's right. It's eliminating any story, whether it's an avatar or Jesus. It's like different groups of so-called people have different stories. Like, I suppose, we have a history that makes sense to us. Looking back at, you know, time and dates and kings and queens, going back into history and all the stories that are involved with that and religions. And so the indigenous people have dream time and see time in a different way and have a story. And that works for them and they see meaning in that. And our sort of way of looking at history works for us and we see meaning in that.

And... But... Both of them seem to... You know, all those belief systems seem to work in a way that presents evidence to the, you know, to consciousness. But, you know, to say one's more valid than another is problematic, of course. You don't discard or diminish the stories. Honestly, I love the stories. And I love the story about prophets and all that. They're gorgeous stories. But, yeah, they only exist. But they don't exist when you think about them. Where is Jesus when you don't think about him? He disappears. It feels like, oh, no, no, he is there even if I don't think because others think. Well, how do you know?

You are thinking others. So this is how unreal and how mind based, how totally dependent on thinking those realities, those dream realities of Muslim religion or Jewish religion or this hero or that hero. And... I happen to be from the country. when I was a teenager the communism was just collapsing. I'm Polish. And I tell you what the history I was learning at school is so vastly different than the story, the history that was told five years later. So any story is really depending on the belief. And you want to... As I said before, before all beginnings, after all endings, I am. I am, yes.

That sense of presence is not there, who's going to witness, who can say a word? And there is a couple of comments here. And I think one of the comments was just what you say. JB is saying labels aren't it, and neither is the sentence. No thing is even a word, but have to communicate it somehow. Yes. And then Amarna says exactly. There is no waker, no dreamer, no deep sleeper or self-realizer. There is no one in the self, yet everyone from no one. And Amarnath also, all concepts are non-conceptual. Oh, interesting. Viewer itself, a notion self cannot be viewed, yet all viewing spontaneously happening without separate center.

Beautiful Tony, nothing is inherent in non-inherent. There is no substance on no one to have that. Nothing can be recorded or not recorded beyond recorder. Frequently. We forget who am I? All discussions are futile as discussant is a notion. Simplicity of self is simple that it cannot be described at all. There is no one, no character in all story. Mind is nothing but story. Now Michelle, it's an interesting conversation. In my opinion, I think that nonjuality tends to have its basis in Hindu texts. Like. Advaita Vedanta. Oh gosh, I lost it. Whereas the other gentleman is coming from Buddhist point of view, there are subtle differences and these are age-old arguments that might never be settled.

I think the important thing to remember is that there are differences in the way realities viewed and described between these two philosophies. And perhaps not try to convert the two. Yeah. To try to convert the two. the other because in the end who is right when we are only using concepts to describe reality beautiful point Michelle at last I just like to add what Bob often says on the beginning of the spiel I'm not the Buddhist I'm not the Advaita I'm not the Christian Muslim or Jew but I draw from all the traditions because they all have the same base at the yes so so finding differences totally you you can just have a good debate but what a waste of time just dwelling in the concepts rather than pointing beyond them Michael says I once had to meet a friend three hours drive away and being in time was important and I was having a conversation about time not being real with my passenger when I realized and whoopsie that's when I realized we had taken a very important lesson in the book and we had to take a very important lesson in the book and we had to take a very important lesson in the book and we had to take a very important lesson in the book and the wrong turn and had traveled 35 minutes in the wrong direction I started to panic then I just let go arrived and apologized for being late and they said no issue it was only 10 minutes late haha forget about the daylight saving the difference the time difference that's a beautiful example of what that what the concept the time is Thank You Michael and Amarnath addition and addition and deletion are notions addition and deletion can happen without person and John David everything is perfectly resolved in the unborn banki beautiful that's one of Bob's favorite quotes of banki who is a Buddhist monk by the way wasn't he perfectly resolved in the unborn mind Amarnath nothing is new or old in the self time is nothing by contraction of the mind of the unborn mind Denny Ooooh and but with Is julia past lives appear in the now how can we possibly prove reincarnation absolutely to the venerable think is just uh two age so so no good or bad beautiful or ugly those are only concept duality and simply exact that's around and so no good or bad beautiful or ugly those are only concept duality and simply exact says I'm soih nd And Amarnath, I am aged is image which has no age at all.

No doubt in that, says Ram. And British Julia, well, I think Sailor Bob is another master within the story. And there you have to think, see, the belief, the thinking. Thank you all, says Amarnath. And Rohan says, even when saying get rid of everything, that sense of presence cannot be denied. There has to be presence there to be able to deny it in the first place. Love you, Bob and Kat. Absolutely. Even a deconstruction has to happen in that presence of awareness, consciousness. Tanya says, thank you for the lively discussion. And thank you so much for pointing to the simple, undeniable clarity beyond concepts. Love you all.

And now we have goodbye messages. So that leaves us off the hook. David, did you want to say something? You didn't say a word. Hearing all these words and concepts and beliefs and opinions, it makes me question this whole format. Is it elucidating the truth or just confusing us more? I wonder if it wouldn't be better if we just sat quietly together. There wouldn't be more value in that than tossing all these ideas around. So I wonder what your thought about that is. Yeah. That's a beautiful point. I really like that. And life unfolds and it happens exactly as it happens. And nobody has any saying to how it is going to unfold.

Who knows? Next time we may find ourselves not speaking. This time we do find ourselves speaking. That's how uncompromising non-doership of life unfolding is. Neither the Quakers did that for hundreds of years, didn't they? Sitting in silence. But they did have some positive contributions. Yes, they did. Apparently, in the story. Yes, they did. But... In the story of time. They did have. But they were penetrated by others and took all the good parts out of it. True. Yeah. And now Julia says, thanks everyone. Ultimately silence, it's all okay as long as we realize the truth. And we have to remember that underlying that all lively discussion and conversation, the silence and space has not been touched.

Yeah. But thank you. That's a good point. Yes. It might be confusing. And sometimes confused mind is the mind that is giving up, is ready to stop. It's like the computer when you give it too many actions to do it at once and it just stops. It stops processing and you get this waiting. And in that gap, when the mind is confused, gosh, it just gets blank. Who knows? That's how life unfolds. And yeah, I do kind of have a slight preference for the energy to be more kind of gentle and loving and less confronting. But that's just the makeup of this body. And sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.

But thank you. And thank you everyone. Thank you.