Relax and investigate. Sailor Bob, nonduality. 19-12-2021

So welcome everyone. Sophie from Flying the Moon. Sebastian. Julia. Gerard. Tony. Simon. David. Jacinta. Suzanne. Jo. Ross. Mukti. Darren. Very nice to meet you. And this book here. Good to see you all. Good to be able to come through to it so I could see you all. What do you think you're going to get here? Make sure that that's all. I know to get that seeming something about it all. The grasping quite out here. It's non-dual. Not two. It's only the one essence. That's what needs to be seen and understood and grasped. There never ever was or never ever will be anything other than that.

Not two, the one. Not even one. Because one implies there could be other than one. And we say, we've taken on this belief we are separate individuals, persons. And we think we've got to search to find it. To become something. You look at that, it's a bit stupid trying to be, become something that you already are. When basically, all that needs to happen is a recognition. Recognising what is always there. Being divided up in many different ways. All seemingly so. Appearing to be so. It's the one essence. Patterning, shaping, forming. Appearing, expressing. As all these different pattern shapes and forms which we call things. There's nothing separate.

What's anyone or who is anyone trying to seek it or find it? Put ourselves behind the eight ball. Scratch behind the scratch line. Because then we've got to try and find out what we think we are and become something else. And that's why it's seemingly so hard and difficult. A bit of recognising of what you truly are. And there are different ways of expressing it and putting it. A bit of recognising. They've got to call it a cognising emptiness. It's all empty. All, everything appears in this basic space. The very space that we're sitting in right now. And look at all the things that we're doing.

All the things that are appearing in it in this room. Apart from out of the confines, seeming confines of this room into the so-called manifestation. There's nothing that has any self-nature to it whatsoever. Pattern, shape and form and vibrating into different things. But it was never anything other than the one. Now if we grasp that and recognise that. Who or what is there to be fearful? And who or what is there to be fearful about? That one naturally, spontaneously, effortlessly functioning. And you see when they say in some of the traditions, they call it the unborn mind. Or the great perfection or the absolute. Make the statement that everything is perfectly resolved in the unborn mind.

With all the seeming diversity, all the sadness, sorrow, unhappiness, pain. The description we put on it from the point of view that there is somebody who can see it as such. We are this person, we are this entity. Look out there in nature itself. Does nature know anything about day, night, winter, summer, high, low, past, future? Or good or bad or pleasant or painful? Nothing whatsoever. We've got the idea we need to search for it to become it. It realised that the search itself is the problem. Because we've taken on the belief we're separate and we're trying to become something. Instead of realising what you are, you are already that.

Only and ever. And will be or can be. Nothing other than that. And it's always been so. And so it all takes place in the so-called I-D-E-T. It takes place in the so-called idea of time. And it's not, we think it's not happening now. We're not realising it now. But we will become something at some future time. Who or what is going to become something. It's believed in entity, this person. Think it needs to do something to realise or recognise what it is. And become one with it. And this sets up all the problems. Trying to become something that you already are. With that concept or idea that I've got to become something.

You'll never ever get it. Relax and look into it and investigate. And see what they're pointing out. There's no thing. And as it's arising, resonating and revealing itself, it's working itself out. And that's the fact here. It's working itself out. Naturally and effortlessly. And it's working itself out. And the recognition and realisation. Well there is nothing to get. It is absolute. It is total. You've grasped and understood it. Now Nisargadatta was recognised as having an understanding. He wasn't anything separate from it. And there was nothing to understand. He was already that. And people that went to him would recognise it also. And Walensky pointed that out years later when he went back to India to visit Nisargadatta's place where he was old.

And he thought he'd look up some of his old deputies. See how they were going. And he interviewed quite a few. There's a DVD on it, I think, somewhere on the phone. And there is a film on YouTube as well. On YouTube. He talked to these people. They were serene, peaceful, going pretty well. And he'd ask each of them, what did you do? And they'd all say nothing. It's just we took on board what we heard and left it as it is. And it works itself out. Naturally and effortlessly, which it does. And that's what's been happening here over the years too. So it's been there too.

The less involvement with the patterns and carry-ons in the world, the easier it is to resonate. And recognise, recognise your true nature. Instead of the struggle of trying to become someone. Argue with this one or that one. This one's got it and that one hasn't. This one sees the different light. When it's resonated with and recognised, you'll know. You can't help but know. And the natural relaxation, the beingness of it all, comes about of its own. And continues on its own. We need to look and investigate in the first place. Not that we need to. But it can be very painful living from that point of view of a separate entity, a person.

Only because of the concepts and ideas and image we have about it. And take those concepts, ideas and images to be real. So to recognise the natural, true nature of everything that's happening spontaneously. The breathing, the heart beating, the hair and fingernails going, the food being digested. The natural, effortless living that's happening in each and every seeming pattern right now. And the natural joyousness is in that. Sense of being well, nothing wrong. Anyhow. And which is recognised when the recognition is there's nothing or no one to relate to. Relationship or relativity is dualism. And we've got this manifestation that we're functioning in right now that's appearing right before our very eyes as seeming dualistic.

Now could it be any other way? As it is, in its absolute, who could, who or what could say anything about it whatsoever? Nothing can be said about it. Because then it's absolute and it's just function. But with the separation we've got this concept of an individual, a person. And it's, things are not going so well with it. Or even though life functions the way it naturally should and all. We think it should be different, we think it should be better. So we've got to try to become something. And that takes on a seeming path, venture. All sorts of things can continue to happen. And it can get very severe.

The dramas, the traumas, effects. And there'd be the natural flow. It can divide, spread in all its diversity and it does. But where does it all appear? What do we call space? Space. The room we're in right now is spacious. It's full of space. And do you think those four walls and the ceiling and the floor are encapsulating it? Closing it? Because you can look beyond it. Look out there into this space. And can you find an end to that space? Can you find a centre to it? A spot where it all starts? I can't find a beginning to it. Can't find an end to it.

And see patterns, many of the patterns, shapes and forms are disappearing. Bodies, mind, insects, birds, everything like that. Oceans drying up. Constantly changing. Where does it all go? Space. Get out of space. Can only back into space. Now does space have a centre to it? Can you find a beginning to it? You can't. There's no static point anywhere. Can you find an ending to it? You can't. This pattern, which we believe in it, was a lot of trouble. Now just seeing it unfold as it unfolds, quite effortlessly, naturally, freely, where's it going to go? Where did it come from? Can you postulate or think of anything that could be outside of this space?

What would it be in? It would have to be in something. We call it the space. Space is no thing. It has no centre to it, no circumference, no shape, no form. And all this content, when you look at it, what is it? Well, you, me, the trees, the flowers, the oceans, everything, are all things, seeming something solid and substantial and real. Can something come from no thing? Because that's what is all appearing in the no thing. And you realise it can't. That's why it's transient. That's why it's changing all the time. That's why there's nothing lasting in it. Because it's constantly changing. As they say, out of eternity this new day is born, into eternity at night will return, adorning another new day.

Think, well, they'll let it pass, useless away. You're in the life, you are the life, recognise you are that life. Open up to it. See where it takes you. All the tumultuous noise, sounds, signs and activities that's going on, there is a basic stillness. The heart of the cyclone, there's a stillness. The heart, settle into that stillness. Get the taste of it. Recognise it. If you want to know the peace that passes all understanding, you will recognise that sense of wellbeing, being well, being unconcerned about the habits that are going on. Rest in it. Relax in it. Rest in its uncontrived singularity. Though it's seemly, as I say, the many, it's still only and ever the single.

Whatever's going on in it, the essence of it all is the oneness. And you are that. We take on this idea of the persona, and we've got this idea of a person, the me, the entity, and we believe that to be what I am, a separate entity, an individual, a person. What's that word person? Realise that's all it is, is a word. Coming from the ancient Latin, persona, it's a mask. Because they knew it was a mask even then, when they learnt those words. We identify with that because it seems to have some natural life, personal life in it, we identify with it. Only because we learn words.

You can't remember your birth, why? Because you had no words. And you didn't learn any words until you were a couple of years old, what we call a couple of years, because when you look into that concept of time, You see, that's all that is, another concept. Time is the past, present and future is what we call time. Is there a past if you don't think about it? You investigate it and see. You say, I was in the past. See if you can go back and actually live yesterday, or even live a moment ago again. Initially recalling what was saying, what was going on then.

You can't go back and live that moment in. The breath you're taking now will be fresh and new. The heartbeat will be a fresh and new one too. Not the same pattern, but I mean to say the expansion and contraction. The thoughts, unless you're clinging and fixating onto one, they'll be ever fresh and new too. The feelings that come from those thoughts, the thoughts, the feelings and the emotions will be different. Away from this concept of time, what am I right now? What did I have to do to get here? I sit here. There wasn't just a recognition that it's right here, right now that I am.

Where did I come from? Then I can conceptualise some idea of a past. And then from that I can imagine some idea of a future. Then we're in this concept of time. But what you are is absolutely right here, right now. The most of it. Because this is all there is. All the past things that's had and happened, they're come and gone. Memories. Sensation they cause by relating to them. But do you want to continue in those past memories, events and conditioning? Or wouldn't it be much more exciting, much more interesting to be with this ever fresh presence or earnest? What's coming in with this next breath I'm taking?

What's going out if I breathe it out and let it go? What's happening all around? What am I going to hear in the next instance? What am I going to taste in the next touch or smell? What's the more important thing? The past? Or the future? Or what is the actual? This is actually it. What do I have to do to become it? Well, as soon as I said that, there was a recognition. Nothing. This is it. This is. Right here and right now it is it. And I am that is-ness. Not all these concepts, all these ideas and all these images. And it's all functioning by itself.

All happening by itself. No one is making me take that breath. Or beating my heart. No one out there is calling the leaves to move on the trees. Though I don't see any wind at the moment. Or the clouds to roll around the sky. It's all fresh and new expression. And it's wonderment. And it's amazement. And with the conceptual ideas we take of what I am and what I can do and what I can't do and what has happened. See what's missed out on. This pattern through which it's expressing. It's not as fast as it used to be. And I can grasp things as much as it.

But it still has the capacities to do a lot of these things. And while it's got those capacities, make use of them. Because the next, there might be a seemingly concept of time when it'll all disappear. And what good is that going to be to me or anybody else? Right now, in this presence awareness is where the life is. And all I can say is that I am that. I am that. Not this person. Not this body, mind. Not this individual. I am that life. And look around me. And recognise all around me that life is happening. Naturally, effortlessly and spontaneously. When the seeming patterns are no longer of any use, they drop off.

Go back into the space. The cognising emptiness. Ever fresh and ever new. More life can come. And that's what I'm talking about. The person is not reality. And I've seemingly lived in it for a long time. It still seemingly rears its ugly head at times. But it hasn't got the big hole on it it had before. And it doesn't matter. It's known for what it is. Behind it, or you can say behind it, but there's no behind, there's no in front. There's no anywhere at all. You know that, as they say, in some of the Psalms, I'm underneath of the everlasting arms. That space. That necessary essence that you can relax in.

It's not no thing. It's a vacuum or a void. It is the absolute pure essence. There's no beginning, no ending. No high, no low. No far, no near. But it's this eternity. This moment, seeming moment, which is eternal. When does now begin? I'll try and grasp it right now. I've got it. But it's gone, isn't it? So it's beginningless and endless. No static point in it. No circumference. Be what you are. We've played the game long enough of being this entity. And none of you would be here if you were satisfied with the way it's going. You'd be locked into some of these scriptural, philosophical beliefs that you're going to get something at some future time.

And you're going to sit on the right-hand side of Big Daddy. And then you're going to make it whole and complete for you. You can hold those beliefs for a while and hope they fulfil themselves. But then you realise they don't. And they won't. And you look back and you realise, there's never a time I can say I was not. There's never a time I can say I will not be. And that's what it means. This pattern that these words are coming out of is the way it's expressing. But the pattern is not it either. But the space it's in, which is not being corrupted or contaminated by the pattern, shapes and forms that take place in it.

That is all there is. You are that. That'll do me for the night. I've got to say anything. Argue, fight about it, do whatever you like, or tell us your version. There are many different takes of it down through the ages. And all of them have got their sense of reality because what are they all taking place in? Could anything be mouthed without that life essence going through it? Let it express in the being. But don't lose sight of it. Away you go. I've got a couple of comments from people. We have nearly 30 people with us online. So welcome everyone here and online. And we have Amarnath when you were talking about no becoming.

He says, be no coming and going. JB, good morning, good afternoon, guys and girls. Oh yeah, the welcoming messages. There was quite a few of them. Everyone's happy to see you. And Christopher, good to see you. Good to see you, Bob. You look sharp. So beautiful to experience never ending unfolding whilst knowing nothing is happening. Nothing ever happened. And Jeff says, nice to breathe into that isness. Realize that too, the no thing is the everything. And the everything is the no thing. Julia says, British Julia, can't keep a good man down. Welcome back, Bob. More good morning messages from Pramali and Tanya and Amarnath. Yeah, they're just welcome messages.

So you are welcome to have your device if you like. And thank you for a beautiful spiel. I believed in him. He didn't want to speak in the morning. And we almost had a little fight. So the agreement was that he will just start it. And if he just doesn't feel like because of the pain and the painkillers, then yes, of course, I'll be there to help. But it was wonderful. It was perfect. I believed in it. So would anyone like to add something or ask a question or share something or perhaps direct the spiel or maybe highlight some of the pointers or argue with them?

It is open for discussion. I'll be monitoring if anyone who is online is chipping in. Yeah, George says, brilliant, Bob. How could I have my own version when your pointers are so clear? George, young George. Young George. Yes. Although I have to say Bob actually really enjoys, that's to George and everyone, when the pointers really sink in and he calls it get digested, and they are expressed from their own core understanding, not just repeated words and concepts that were read somewhere or heard somewhere, but something that following the pointer unfolds within. Because there is ultimately only one thing that can really be understood conceptually by the mind.

And that one thing is that the answer is not in the mind. Educated mind, stupid mind, trained mind, untrained mind has to be transcended, but equally quiet mind, noisy mind, the answer is not in the mind. So the understanding has to come from the core of the being. And if it comes through and expresses as the dance or music or poetry or painting, that's equally wonderful. And when it expresses itself as a pointer that can relieve someone from suffering, that's even more beautiful. That's what we're doing here. Please. I don't think there's anything I can contribute that's new either. I mean, how do you improve on perfection?

Except to say that I can't help but notice that insanity is in the mind. Whenever I'm crazy, or I have been crazy, not that I did any of it anyway, Okay. but whenever it happened, seemingly, there was definitely a lot of mind caca and identification of a me that had to do it. Or not do it, or, yeah, definitely a sense of specialness. Always a sense of specialness. And it's, it's, um, I mean, I've had moments really like in the, like even deep insanity, and it was so, like you said, I just loved your pointer of the false cannot stand up to investigation. Because that's all it took, you know, is a quick investigation.

A re-cognition, as you say. So, Tanya says, and the music, those made, which appears as the everyday thoughts and words and actions of you and others, is nothing other than presence playing through these instruments, and truly is the ultimate gift beyond beauty. That is from the book Perfect Brilliant Stillness by David Kars. Yeah, you could say everything's the music, everything's the dance, everything's one either way. And Amanath Thank You says, and a lot of icons, beautiful noticing can be owned and disowned. Owner is notion. Merry Christmas in advance to all. Every moment is Christmas only. Thank you. Well, um, so I'm new to the group, but not new to the ideas.

I can't say that I've got them all integrated. I haven't, I still, I'm still struggling. And what I'm wanting to do in my life now is just, perhaps I'll put it into the terms I understand, is, you know, just create from the heart. And it's something I've never allowed myself to do. And so it's, it's helpful because in that process, I see the whole struggle of, you know, the, the ego wanting to say, oh, but hang on, what about, you know, this identity and this story and this event over here? And if you, you know, et cetera. So it's, um, I work at it and I have got a, I have got a process, which I've learned from a different thing.

But would you have a suggestion to make that process easier and to decrease the resistance, you know? Because sometimes the resistance is like, I'm astonished at what the ego can get up to. The closer I get to what I want from the heart, the bigger the performance from the ego. It's like it says, wow, have I got a, have I got a story for you? And it gets, it gets bad sometimes. And then I have to sort of say, crikey, that's just a story. And we, we've given up story. So I don't know. Any advice, Bob? That's beautiful. Would you, would you like to comment?

Just relax. It does. It's terrifying. Just relax, you know. You know, the Earth's rolling around in the sun. It doesn't, it's got to be at such, such a time and such a, such a place. It's just rolling around naturally and absolutely. That's what it's got to do. And that's what a lot of people will tell you. Doing this just. Having up to it. And let it take you where it's going to take you. Because it's the struggle. The opposition to it. It's retarded and kept us where we are. And just see, just see how the birds are singing. They, they really, they just such artists and any art.

But that's what a beautiful sort of attitude that yes, I do want to create from the heart and let it flow. And the only obstacle is there. Is the narrative that is coming and telling others not good enough. I'm not good enough. Who am I? Whatever. Disregarding that narrative and returning to that essence, to the body, to the heart, to the feelings. Just like it happens in nature. The animals who do not have the narrative. And the whole intention is already calling from the heart. That intention. If you just stay with that intention. That's what Bob was saying. Open to life and it will take you where it takes you.

That intention is like a calling. It's like a calling from life and it will take you all the way. And it's already taking you. You're already radiant. You're already, you know, it's, it doesn't happen overnight. But slowly you are that bird singing. You are the nature. It will come. I just wanted to read one more thing. Here Gilbert says, nothing can be added to it. Nothing taken away. And that's a brilliant point. You are already that. Yeah, also the upset and the stress and the struggle is not separate from it. And so the, and I had something come up yesterday and I can see there's like underneath that a thought that is really connected to some old past pain that formed this, the way, this shape of this mask shows up in the world or has.

And it's like. each time as soon as that scene through it's just like an even deeper stillness and peace and so the reflection afterwards for me was wow that's even though at the time there's a little mind part that wants to come in and complain or think that that's I don't like what happened or but the afterwards is the is the gift of that actually that friction that shows that it's shows the attachment and it is the invitation and the opening yeah that resistance part of the dream that if there if you can see it is an opportunity to love that that part and they I'd love that miss Nisargadatta quote near the problem is not the dream the problem is that you love one part of it not the other and if you love find a way to just love your resistance I've heard cats say that's love too your resistance is loving what is not right yeah yeah yeah that's what I meant yeah yeah yes I've already I have already done that when when the resistance turns up in whatever form what I learned in doing this process was but it was a pretty good process and it was a process that was really difficult really a process that was really difficult but it was a process that I was and it was a process that I really really loved but it was a process that I was it took months for it to turn up was just say oh okay so you're here again all right thanks you've come to you're part of my survival mechanism and okay I know you're here and thanks you you helped me stay alive in bad times but now I need to do a bit more but you'll always be here so can you sit at the back of the bus with a nice mum you know so it's like I've got a whole collection of mothers at the back of the bus with a little it's really whenever I see this ego it's like a little child was trying to get my attention saying please don't do this please don't take a risk please don't please don't be more who you really are because then we'll be visible and that's that's the fear and that so that's what I it just it just arrived intuitively but I know it's there in the methodology of different I know it's in Buddhism what did they say I heard something yesterday like this part of us turns up and Buddha said to called it Mara said hello Mara let's have tea so I thought oh it's like that it's a similar approach just it's an acceptance because if I get into conflict and resistance it just makes it I get more stuck so I'm working on it yeah whatever have you want to describe it yeah so it you know it means I have actually painted paintings and I they've just turned up you know they're not they're not fantastic you know you know I've actually put them up on the wall they're not brilliant but it's like me seeing me say oh okay that's who that's who you are inside why don't you just say good good I'm glad you've shown up at last it's time it's about time the the whole world has painted it with you because your capacity to paint comes from your upbringing, comes from your learning to walk, to speak, to the whole environment contributing to it.

So ultimately, the world has painted it through you, the absolute used you as a tool, with the way you were conditioned, structured, with your attractions, with colors that you would choose. So it's kind of a nice, easy shortcut to just not take credit for it. The painting happened. And if you look at the little children, they draw something and they come and, look, look, mommy, what I did. Oh, no, they first say, look what happened. The painting happened. And then they get conditioned to believe that, oh, you did it. Oh, that's good. Do more. I will give you approval. So now child starts taking credit and doing more in exchange for the approval.

So the spontaneous creativity got somehow channeled into the game of, like, yeah. But everything, yes, everything just happens. Painting happens. Dancing happens. Speaking happens. Breathings, heartbeat, all of it happens. And I just wanted to read also there is a beautiful message from Armanath, great to see you, Gilbert. We were missing you since long time. Words cancel each other out without meaning they die. Death of language, even concept of silence, real births and wisdom. . Yeah, would be good to see you, Gilbert, if you are around. And Tanya says, relaxing just happens. No entity doing relaxation. Resistance thoughts just come and go. Life definitely does take you where you need to go.

There is noticing that life is perfectly unfolding, even when it looks like that thought would say is not perfect. As Bob said, life is perfect. As Bob says, live it as it is. And Armanath, without ease, there is no resistance. Without resistance is no ease too. . Yes, they only exist in the relation to the opposite. Tanya, love all of it or none of it. Really love that, Julia. That pointer stayed with me after last week's Sunday meeting. Have found loving all of it showing up the last minute. the last few days thank you and Ram we are here now with most beautiful lovebirds I'm a not beautiful Tanya and we are trying to hold which cannot be held with a beautiful game of fun or fun you never enter to the game yet we are playing winning and losing the game in out in and out I also lost their meaning and primarily what helped me is to see that I can't think what I want I only wanted thoughts that make me happy but I couldn't do it I had no control over this thoughts then who is this me me has had no place thoughts happen feelings happen they happen to nobody beautiful beautiful all the narrative just happens resistance happens struggles happens they just happen long as that I've missed today yes yes flowing with life and just being curious what's going to happen next what's thought is going to come what feeling what ideas what actions what forms come in this sphere of seeing what sounds will come in sphere of hearing and just marvel because ultimately it is a miracle the miracle of existence of seeming existence as we know they only impermanence they only come for this moment and in the next moment is gone is dead so this is the moment to be here present and appreciating all that shows up and that includes the sadness includes the struggle you can't take anything in with the door shut yeah yeah and I think with this particular view it is going to be much stronger people with no sense of that's what it is to me it is like an energy that comes from what you were saying pointing the same direction and a witnessing being present to something to receive like a container I don't know that's what it says to me I've thought about this recently and because for years I was locked into this witnessing kind of religion and and it's.

It does it if you get stuck the whole time and if you kind of just get kind of settled And it's just more me. It's just the appearance of functional witnessing. It's just more layers. The thing that stood out for me in your talk was this idea of effortlessness. And so I'm wondering if any effort is just counterproductive in this desire to wake up. Is it just grace that someone wakes up? Is there anything you can do? It seems to be the paradox, this idea of effortless effort. Because when effort is required, effort will happen. It happens. And then it is effortless. Because when it is something that naturally comes, when you think of a mother waking up in the middle of the night because the baby cries, the oxytocin rushing through and she jumps out of bed, love does it.

She doesn't really do it. That's the sort of effortless effort. When you may find yourself doing all sorts of things, but without taking credit, this life doing it. So when the effort is required, whatever the effort, because, of course, every sort of body-mind machinery has different conditioning. Some things may be in some bodies, it may be kind of beneficial to chant mantras or whatever. And if that happens, that's the way of it. But life does it. There is never an entity doing it. Because the moment you say, oh, I have to sit in a meditation and put an effort, you solidify the I. Instead of realizing there is no I, there is just life doing, going about its, it's unfolding.

Just a little deliberate functioning, you know, using effort and as a person, you're separating yourself from the natural functioning of intelligence and energy. And some of it may, like from someone watching from outside, it may feel like enormous effort. Imagine, you know, going to India and Bob meeting Minister Gadatta and all of that, and then you're sitting in a room, you're sitting on the tram for a few hours, then on the bus in the heat, sneaking out from the ashram, just to sit in a room that is thick of smoke that almost cut through with the axe. And that seems like a huge effort. But he was almost flying on his wings with the sink going through that heat.

That was effortless to just, you know, life was moving him to get there. But from someone outside, the story might look like, oh my gosh, I would not sacrifice that far. I would not go with that sort of a surrender. Nobody does go through anything. Life does all of it. You may find yourself being moved to sit in silence. And, or you may find yourself having a narrative about, oh, I need to do meditation because if I do meditation, then I, the doer, will discover something at the end of the... So, effortless effort is just giving credit where credit is due. And everything, when you look at nature, you look at animals, some of them take enormous efforts to find food, to fight for mates, to start the families, to survive.

It seems like incredible, especially with that human animal on the same planet. Taking more and more of their territory. And they don't have a story that's an effort. That's just life doing its thing. Yeah, please. I'd like to add something. It's a good point, but a wise person was more concerned to, says that, know that things are empty. So, effort is empty. Effortless is empty. That way we won't sort of reify, you know, effort or effortlessness sort of thing. So, it's a middle path in between the two. I like your comment, you were talking about there was a self there doing all your studying or...

Yeah. Yeah. And I thought that was sort of interesting that there are great meditators in India, you know, thousands of years ago, you know, but there was always an I that was meditating. They were never free of this someone who was doing the meditating, so on. But, you know, a big thing is just to know that all things are empty. You know, then you can be free of effort or effortlessness. There'll be a lot of striving for effortlessness. I've done a lot of striving on that and so on. Okay. Thank you. I think it would come a lot down to the, yeah, like, I think one of you already said taking credit.

Sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. I was just going to say also there's nobody that wakes up. There's no separate people. So there's this expectation that something's going to happen and it just doesn't. There's nobody. Yeah. I don't know who said it, but as Tony was just pointing out, emptiness is form, and form is nothing but the emptiness. So it's nobody doing anything. Yeah, and absolutely. Thank you, Sebastian, for that. Nobody wakes up. That's the point. To realize that no matter what you do, what people do, the waking up is waking up from the idea of I, from the idea of being separate me into nothing, into nothing that doesn't really have any preference or doesn't bother with, oh, I want to wake up, I don't want to wake up.

When the I goes away, the idea of waking up also goes away because there's no one who wants it or no one who needs it or no one who craves it. It's just the whole, they all recognize us. There is no idea of ideas. There is idea of me and there is an idea of enlightenment and there is idea of the sort of a becoming or getting or achieving that enlightenment. When you see through the ideas, they all drop away and there's no me, there's no enlightenment, no becoming, nothing. It's just life in this moment as it is. It's just so simple that there's really nothing to have, nothing to get, nothing to look for.

The seeking is all gone. And life is just as it always has been. If there's no self nature, how can there be other nature? Yeah, okay, I have, that's right, yeah. And other is just, can you achieve another person? Another idea. It could be a ghost. It could be, I use it for, you know, an alien. Or something or other. As something other. Well, there's no nature, there's no self nature in this dimension, seemingly. How could there be a nature in some other dimension? Yeah. That cured me of ghosts and supernatural things. They may still appear. Absolutely. But, you know, we can't find a self nature, an essence in this world.

Like tree-ness or self-ness or table-ness or anything like that in this dimension. How are we going to find a nature on, you know, on Mars or some other dimension? Or, you know, speaking to the dead or something or other? So, it cured all my sort of thoughts about wondering about supernatural events and so on. Which doesn't deny these appearances. You may see a ghost. You may see an alien. Yeah. You know, that's possible. But as far as that appearance having any substance or essence to it, no. Because we can't find any substance or essence in anything in this world. That's right. You know, so how could there be, if we can't find anything in this world, how could there be self nature in another world?

And we could only know this other dimension, whether it be a ghostly dimension, from this world. Or from this dimension. You know, so that's the only way we could interpret, you know, a ghostly realm or some other dimension is from this dimension. An eye is a ghost. Yeah, yeah. There is no... A phantom. When I goes, he goes. When I goes, he goes. Yeah. And, yeah, Ross wanted to say something? Okay, then I'll read a couple of... I guess where I'm stuck is... You see aspirants or people making these Herculean efforts and these stories of people like the Buddha. Or recently I was been reading or listening to some Papaji or Poonjaji.

And he made these tremendous efforts until that all fell away. So there was... My question is, were they deluded before that happened? Was there... The paradox, I guess, is that all this effort happens to realize that the effort wasn't necessary. But, I mean, I still seem to be stuck on that idea that there is a difference. That something happens. That there is a before and an after. That there is some kind of waking up. And I recognize that, yes, I'm already awake. But there's the recognition, as you point out. So you can say that recognition is the waking up. But before that recognition happens, there is delusion.

And that's where we suffer. So... There is that element of... What's it? Ignoring. Ignorance. They call it ignorance. We are ignoring our true nature. The thing is, the waking up is from the illusion of self, of being separate. So there is, let's say... Papaji, I don't know his story, but whoever's story you could say, the story of seeking is a story of effort. It's a story of putting hours into contemplation, meditation, reading, studying, whatever it is. But there's a lot of energy going, invested, in trying to find the answers for the me. So the idea is that there is a me. And that me, whatever it does, it takes credit for the doing.

So now it feels like there is a lot of effort. And then suddenly it dawns on you, oh shit, I have never done a thing. Not only there is no I right here, right now. There was no I five years ago, ten years ago, or ever. There was only a ghost, an idea of an I, which is a narrative. It's just a construct of the mind. Taking credit for what is happening. Like if you imagine, oh my gosh, I have to work so hard to grow my hair. You know, I'm doing it. I have to then digest my food, and I have to process it into a shit.

And I have to now just, you know, get rid of it. That is the credit taking capacity. So what happens really is that... And a good analogy is like Bob is showing up. You know, when you realize that there has never been a snake in the rope. There has never been a Santa Claus. Or there has never been flat earth. It's not that you investigate it, and yesterday the earth was flat, and today, oh shit, it got round again. No, it has always been round. There is only a belief. So there has always been the effortless sort of life flowing through the body. And there never been a me.

But for the longest time, the habit of translating what is happening as my actions and my efforts were there. So I was sitting in meditation, going from ashram to ashram, from monastery to monastery. I was putting hours into meditation, contemplation, reading, study. And now I don't. But the truth is, I never did. There was life. Because there was a story of the me, the energy was channeled into sustaining the story of the me. When the story of the me disappeared, there may be still habitual behavior of entertainment found in the same music or the same study. But rather not, because, well, most of the situations that I know first hand is that that sort of a seeking habit drops.

Because what sustains it is the idea that there is something to be had or found for the me. When the me is gone, there is nothing to be had or found with the me. But really is the realization or recognition that there never been an entity who was trying to get liberated or who was trying to free itself from the suffering. So there is sort of one could say waking up from the story of me. Waking up from the dream of being separate entity somewhere there inside, little thing that has to do all that hard work of growing the hair and breathing and thinking and deciding and feeling all those feelings that my shame, my wrongness, or they didn't respect me.

And it's just a narrative. It's a recognition that what you think you were is not the truth. Because what you are is that nothingness or that just spontaneous unfoldment of the energy. Yes, Simon. Thanks. Yeah, there's no way to understand or know this. So we will go through the process of seeking and seeking and meditating, whatever. But that's still a way of trying to know it or understand it. And as Kat says, it could be a recognition that one day it can be dropped that it never happened. Yeah? Yeah. But obviously you're not going to drop it. No. It will drop or... Good point. Yes.

You can't do that. Can I just suggest that what happened here, right to the bitter end, was a firm belief in the Enlightenment myth that everything would be better and loving and problem-free. And that falls away as well. So when you're left with what is, it can still be everything that happened before, but not for anybody. So that waiting and that need for a shift or for something to happen is just this story, this game, this need for a final completion, which doesn't exist. Yeah, that's beautiful. And that's so vital. Yeah, waiting sadly. Like what is wrong with right now? Why is this moment not good enough?

Oh, but there is still a belief in the me. Oh, well, okay. But you see, it's just a belief. So you just don't bother with it. Yeah, but there is no pleasure. There is no bliss. So there is still a subtle expectation of pleasure or bliss. But that's also a passing phenomenon. Just don't bother with it. And in this moment, as that thinking stops, that is the natural state. That is as good as it gets. You still need the knee replacement. If the knee goes wrong, and you still feel pain when it's happening, and when there is a threat, you still find the body run away.

Or, you know, it looks like life is just as it is for any animal or any tree or anything in nature. Only the story, the whole manifestation, day, night, pleasure, pain, winter, summer, only minus the story that it should be any different. Or there is something that should be happening so I can actually be in a better place. I can actually be in a better position than I am now. Because this now, as it is, is no good. Says who? The idea that this is not perfect as it is, is the idea, is the thought held by a seeming individual who claims it. So there is a seeming individual who has better vision of how this moment should look like.

But they are just phenomena in the consciousness, in that open field of being. And that is the phenomena passing through. The belief in ghost, or belief in I, or belief in whatever. Just sort of thinking of two comments that might be relevant or may not be. But enlightenment, or whatever, you know, that's empty too, to start off with. And it's dependently arisen. It's another way of saying it's empty. It depends on enlightenment, depends on something. But in a sense, enlightenment, you say, just as a helpful, whatever words I say, they'll never convey. There will always be flaws. But then you can use words. I'm not against using words and saying, no, no, you don't use words.

No. And it's only by words, that's all we've got. So I have no problems with words. And Bob has got no problems with words. He certainly... speaks a lot, probably more than me. But anyway. But if you want to say enlightenment, it's just a change of mindset. And the world is still the same. You know, as you were saying. But one person, it's still the same things. One person sees it, as you want to say, as nirvana. All the rubbish that's gone. And another person sees it as samsara. Separates them. So there is really no separation between samsara and nirvana, or whatever you like to call it.

And the other thing is enlightenment is, we're sort of, or whatever, we think we're going to find something. And enlightenment is the not finding. It's not finding something, but in the not finding. That's the, you know... And I can become quite certain. And it takes time, and I reckon it takes effort. You know, I've got no problem with effort either. But, you know, and you... I'm quite certain that I cannot find a self. Or a tree-ness. You know, something called tree-ness. Or cat-ness. You know. But, you know, there's an absolute certainty about that. But most of us think we're going to find something. A blissful state.

Or something like that. And the reality is, there isn't really... Everything is empty. And so you're not ever actually going to find anything. And, you know, these enlightened ones, they never apprehended things. As though there was something... They never apprehended a rock as though it was something substantial, or something like that. They knew there was no rock-ness there to apprehend. So it... So they don't apprehend things. The ignorant people... I'm not allowed to use that word though, today, are we? We're not... I know. And so on. I like the word ignorance. You mean people or ignorant? Yeah. Sorry. OK. Sorry. But... But you made the joke.

But the normal person thinks that they've found something. Of course I'm real, you know. Of course that tree's real. Of course that... Of course such and so on. As though they are apprehending some essence or some real nature there. But there isn't anything there to apprehend. So this is the ignorance. The ignorant, you know... I used to do that. I think I still do it. You know? And thinking that I can actually apprehend and I know things. I know I'm real. And don't tell me I'm not real. And I know that that's real and so on. And in fact, no one has been... It's the non-apprehension awakening.

And that is the actual... The non-apprehending of anything. You know? The not finding anything at all. Now, you know, it's actually a positive. It's all in the negative. But it's sort of a positive. And while we're speaking... If I'm on the affirmative... That's why I was having a crack at you, Kat. Then while I'm being positive and affirmative... And that's okay. But I'm usually going to affirm some substantiality. Something that exists. But in all of that, I'll do the same thing. It just depends. But just keeping it in mind that this Nagarjuna was... He was a sceptic on the negative. He just refuted and wouldn't...

Wasn't in a positive thing. Because to affirm something positive is like attributing inherent existence. If there's something really there. Well, I'll give someone else a go. I'm really curious about people's motivation for coming here. Because I'm coming here because there's some sense of lack. I mean, whether it's real or not, there's some sense. And I hear some other people speaking who seems like they've arrived or there's some awakening or they got it. And I'm just curious if... If there is no sense of lack, why would you come here? As long as there's a me left, there'll be a sense of knowing or seeking. So a lot of us here would like to be in where maybe Bob is.

So I'm just saying, there is no Bob. And, you know, it's only when the me drops or finally dies, you could say, yeah, that's your... And you might still find yourself here. Yeah. I just love everyone here. I heard someone, another wise person once said that, I know that everyone loves me, but not everyone realises that fact. I'll say. OK, well, I'm here. I've been up so many gum trees on the seeking path, you know, just since, well, I'm... I'm a bit of a... I'm a bit of a... I'm a bit of a hoe. Because I've been a hoe forever, really. And not all of them have been a waste of time, but a lot of them have been surprisingly useless.

And so I'm trying to save time because I'm getting old. And I just want to... I just want to live from the heart. Whatever... I don't really care what philosophy it fits in. I'm not interested in labels or levels or achieving something. I already played that game and it wasn't great. So I'm trying to just save time now because I'm getting old. I'll do the same. Pardon? Where do you think you're moving from? Oh, well, you know, partly, still partly from the mind and not as much. But the mind... I know, yes, but it's like I've figured out that the heart has more to say than I ever let it.

I ignored it most of my life and I feel like that was, it was understandable. And some of it was fear-based. But it's not where I want to be now, you know. And I say, I've been up a lot of gum trees and said, oh, shit, what a waste of time. Anyway, that's where I'm at and that's why I'm here. So... You followed your heart. I followed my heart. Well, Jacinda was my friend. She told me about it. And so I just, I just do everything intuitively. If it feels right, I'll give it a go. If it's crap, I'll leave. Yeah. That was an excellent question you asked.

So I suppose my response would be the lack, and I think you're right there, there is a lack. And that is the good company. So I come here for good company. Good reason. I'll answer your question. I come here because I've got a lot of voices in the head. It's very noisy. Incredibly noisy in my head. I come here and thanks to Bob and Kat, they quieten those voices. Without that, I don't know where I'd be. There's a couple of good questions a wee while back. But there's a seeking that, to me, everyone seems to have shared a time of seeking. And that there's a someone who thinks that there's going to get something.

And that's definitely what there was for me, driven by the degree of suffering this me was experiencing. And so that, until there was... Which I believe there was for you too, Bob, but maybe correct me. But until there was someone, so it sort of comes back to the, wherever two or more of you are gathered, so too am I. That there's a question or a something that was created a shift and that seemed to there be a falling away. And then there's no more seeker present. And yet, coming here, you know, this one comes here because there's a, there's a reflection still of love and there's a sharing of truth that just, you know, to resonate and just bathe in.

And also there are times when there's a bit of a me that pops up and then I come and sit with Bob or I sit here and it's, there's a deepening in that endlessness. Yeah. But Papaji was seeking. He was seeking. He was seeking as a householder, yeah. And he was seeking, he was following an experience, you know, that experience of experiencing Krishna, dancing with Krishna, you know, because he'd had a childhood experience of absolute seeing. And then it sort of drifted away. And then Ramana, when he finally got to Ramana and the question Papaji had was, show me God. Somebody show me God. And he'd been all over India to all sorts of sages and nobody had been able to, to actually show him God.

And somebody finally said to him, you need to go to Tiruvannamalai. There's someone there. I reckon he can show you God. And when he got there, he was not impressed with Ramana. He thought, you know, man doesn't say anything, you know. And then he reluctantly came back because someone there suggested him to do that. And as he came back and Ramana just asked him one question basically. And he, you know, where is Krishna now? And all of a sudden Papaji just everything stopped, which is why Papaji's main teaching was stop, stop everything. Just stop. Stop seeking, stop thinking, stop trying to heal. Stop, just stop.

Yeah. I also enjoyed the question about what's enlightenment? When does someone become awake? And all those things. And actually you just basically said what I was, I'm feeling that whatever that term, or that end goal is or whatever is, is when the seeking stops. It's the effort and all those things, those terms we're using is that whilst you're seeking and what I'm hearing and I'm here to, am I here to be enlightened? I'm not sure. But share knowledge, thoughts and all the rest of it. That's certainly why I'm here to share and to, I would say, absorb, learn. But definitely the, from what, what I'm taking in is that point of whilst you're continuing to seek, it's a process and yet it's ongoing.

So you're not there, but how do you ever get there if you're doing it? So yeah, I know. And that there's no there to get. Yeah. You're here. And I have quite a few comments there from people who are with us online. And also I would like to just add a little bit of a spin on that beautiful why question. So every time you ask, why about anything, whether why we are here or why did you go to the school that you did go? Or why did you, where are you born? Or why are you a patriot? Or why is your political? See what it does.

It invites the mind to justify and create a story. And those are all beautiful stories. I imagine that if Jane was with us today, she would say, because she often says that, that she's here out of love and gratitude for Bob. That's a good reason. Also, somebody else would say that the reason why they're here are this and that and the other. See how the question why straightaway transport you to the mind and bring up this beautiful, brilliant storyteller to lie down the justification. Ah, this, this, this, this, you know, I'm going to this, this or that. It's beautiful. The truth is, why am I here?

The mind would say, I don't know. But the life would say, because I'm not somewhere else. I am here because I find myself here. Oh, we're all here. Why? Because I'm here. Which story do we want? You want 10, 20, 30? No worries. But the truth is, we don't really know. It is whole universe contributing why we're here. Like Sue was saying, ah, because Jacinta is her friend and she was, you know, that's part of the story. Or because, you know, you were born in this country and Bob happened to be in the same country. You were born somewhere else, but some of us, not me either.

But the question why is a very valid question. And I think that's the reason why we're here. And I think that's the reason why we're here. And I think that's the reason why we're here. And I think that's the reason why we're here. And I think that's the reason why we're here. Yes, because there is a sense of luck. Yes, because there is a hope for extinguishing that suffering, ending that seeking, or they are all valid answers, but they are all stories. The truth is you're here because life took you here. here. Like Bob says, stay open and see where life is going to take you.

It took you here. Wonderful. Trust life. That's where you should be because that's where you are. And I also wanted to acknowledge few people who actually, ah, and mention Zoom tomorrow for Americans in about, oh, almost 21 hours from now, the details are on the website. Are you up for that tomorrow? Yeah, you're up for that. Julia is hosting the Zoom. Bob will probably be there on the Zoom. And now I'm going to say... encore un petit untitlement. Tanya is saying to Primali, wonderful to hear your recognizing. There is nothing like unhappy in this world. I just notion, says Amarnath, and Rem says regarding Primali that no doubt that what helped her is actually really helpful.

And Amarnath... Tanya says, thank you, Amarnath, this cannot be held in such fun. So many 턴탠 And no doubt that what helped her is actually really helpful. And Tanya says thank you, Amarnath, this could not be held in such fun, so many are seen to be meaningless we don't have any relationship with thoughts or me says Amarnath and one is many many are one language is language less there is no difference at all and non duality says Ram and that was answered to John beautiful who is effort or effortless yet to find that is so beautiful about effortless effort says Primali effort is a story says British Julia and Amarnath thoughts effort mind-seeking and Julia please can you speak more on everything being empty or being appearance only I think Tony answered that pretty well nothing has any separate nature or any existence that you could find nothing stands of it on everything it depends on everything else separation is effort non separation is effortless that's a nice spin it's still all done by life there's no one else to do anything there is no no self or ego at all amarnath says ultimate truth says Ram and Amarnath to whom are these appearances can we see the seer beautiful game and who is doing efforts has the exhaust his dealership to recognize his effortless nature and Bob gave wonderful answers how to do it practically relax and Vivek objectively physical physicallanguage.com Physical goals require effort.

Effortless, no physical goals. Well, you can name it goals or not, but if you look at the world of nature or animals, they don't set physical goals. Goals unfold as the doing meets its end. Let's say if the bird is finding a tree and putting the nest, it doesn't even have the narrative of having physical goal of having a nest. It just finds the doing leads to the nesting. The doing leads to the painting, one or the other. So physical goal is a narrative. That's a doership. Personality equals personality equals separate center. Yes, Ren, so it is the ego's journey, the seeming journey. There is no journey, but it looks like it.

It's a story, and a story is a dream. Beautiful discussion says, I'm not grateful to all. We are ever free. There is no freedom or bondage. Both are notions. Yes, there is only language interpreting it as such. Achieving self equals no more achiever and no self to achieve also. And Terry, there is efforting and no personal efforter. There is speaking and no speaking. There is no self to achieve also. There is no self to be a speaker. All is bursting into existence and not in increments. There is just this, nameless, formless, and yet magnificently exquisite, non-dual love which can't be known by dualistic mind outside of mind.

Duality does not exist. Time does not exist. All there is, is, is. Beautifully Terry, beautifully said. And Amarnath? Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful. No finder of finding both are notion. And Tanya, beautiful and so true. There is only this non-dual love, she's replying to Terry, that has no conditions. Knowledge is ignorance. Ignorance is knowledge, says Amarnath. Nirvana is samsara. Tony just said samsara is nirvana. And yeah, form is emptiness. Emptiness is form. Can then be observer without apprehending? Is asking Ren. Well, observing, observer is already conceptualizing a point or the entity. But observing happens. Urine. Every man is quoting Jeremiah 10, 14. Every man is brutish in his knowledge.

Every founder is a prophet. It is confounded by a graven image. For his molten image is falsehood. And there is no breath in them. Beautiful. Absolutely. There's no life in any images. Divine I love is all in all. That's Ram. Drop the me and just be, that says Vivek. And Tanya, thank you all lovely expressions of one essence. Great conversation about apparent lack and resistance. like a story only. Thank you so much for speaking today, Bob. Love you all. And thank you all, and all notice silence too, just hidden interwoven, says Amarna. And spot on cut, says Hanzo. Thank you, everyone. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Bob. Thank you, Katia. Thanks, Bob. Thank you. Thank you. Good to see you back.