This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
We can get on to it. So the nonduality meaning not two, meaning one without the other or one without the second, meaning there is one, but really if we look deeper that's not even one because Zana Belko, the founder of the National Museum of Fine Arts and the Fist of the Peripterian Dysplasms, was a famous philosopher and scientist who worked on the It is just like the emptiness dancing into forms, just like light dancing into the sides. And there is a sound wave which also requires the ear to be heard. So it is really just interdependent co-arising from the field of potentiality to the actuality of the phenomena of the dream.
So that's the description. But how is it practical? How is it to be experienced directly? The pure potentiality or the infinite field of potential existence doesn't have any flavour, any taste, colour, shape. It can't even say, you can even say that it doesn't really have an existence I am not a person who can grasp or describe. But without that, nothing is. So without that basic screen or that pure potentiality, nothing is. So on or out of it or on that pure potentiality, the sensations come up. The sensations of bodily sensations and the sensations that are translated by the all the holes in the inner head and in the body as seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling.
Now those sensations are translated into seeing what is being seen, what is being heard, meaning seeing objects, heard sounds. And as the translation progresses, they are being related to the seeing entity, hearing entity, experiencing entity. So just because of the nature of the translator, of the translating services, which is the mind, the brain, the whatever, the hardware is the brain and the software is the mind, whatever. Because of that tool, the world is interpreted as relative to the observer. So there is a world out there and there is an observer in here. And it feels like there is someone there who is experiencing what's happening.
And that someone is called me or I. And if that I is interpreted as limited, Bob dropped off. That's unfortunate. I'll just try to call him on messenger. It will be easier. Sorry for that. He really wanted to hear the talk. He kind of enjoys. Oh, there you are darling. Okay, so you dropped off Zoom, so we'll just have to do it this way. So just stay there and you'll hear everything just the same. Yeah, so that's how the plain description of the whole experiencing of what's happening, what's going on moment to moment. There is a pure potentiality when it vibrates into shapes, forms, patterns, sensations.
It becomes a phenomena and it is interpreted as the world as we know it relative to the one that knows it. So now there is a knower and there is a known world. But this is only because of the structure of the software of the interpretation of the language. If we look at the natural world, the birds, the insects, the trees, the animals, they don't have to conceptualize the separate self experiencing the world out there. When the cat is lying there and having a rest, there is no story going in the head as far as we understand neuroscience. There is no hallucinating of the separate entity inside the cat interacting with the world outside, being separated and divided.
That division happens with the duality of the language, because the language by its nature extracts the objects from that infinite field. To extract the object, the object has to be defined against its opposite, non-object. If I get the pen, it is the pen only because around it there is no pen. We call it space or we can call it table. But that's how the world gets constructed, gets divided, gets separated, segregated into the 10,000 things. And that beautiful that the world of objects cat and dog also see objects but they don have a story that the object is separate or outside or is other than that pure infinite field of being consciousness So because we do conceptualize that this is the other the fear comes about and it fear is being narrated as the world is hostile the world is dangerous I have to provide for myself.
The narrative. Animal also provides for itself. But it doesn't have the concept that it must do it otherwise and the story goes. So it really is the narrative, the language that even though it creates this incredible opportunity to live in the world of so much more complex than the basic world of responding to the moment and to the environment, then it also has the backfire. Even though this complex world is the world of time, is the world of separate existence in time, of having the past from which the future comes, the capacity to predict the future, learning from the past, and narrating the story of me moving through that thing called time.
So this is the wonderful capacity only humans seems to have. The animals, they do have the capacity to memorize like cats can memorize last three minutes. And the learning also happens. If someone kicks the cat, the cat will not go there, but it is slightly different way it is facilitated. I see there is no narrative even when the antelope being chased by a lion. Yes, as far as we know, the antelope is functioning instinctively. Their brain did not develop the language center, the self-referential thinking. So that's as far as the science is concerned with the neuroscience in general. The capacity to hallucinate time and conceptualize time and imagine the self in time seems to be human capacity.
They suspect that maybe dolphins, maybe some big sea mammals, but it is unconfirmed. So, no, Antelope doesn't have a story about the lion. It's reacting completely, just as the body is conditioned to react. The same way, without the narrative, we also act naturally when there is, let's say, a big explosion happening. Just, bam! And then the body strides away, crawls, hides, does something. The narrative comes later and explains it. I decided to do this, I decided to shrink or to hide or to bend my head or to put my arms over the head. The decision has not been taken in the narrative by any eye.
The body is already since there was a singular cells, singular cell organisms. Life as it evolved through more and more complex organisms, it always had ingrained survival mechanism and survival strategies. So it actually, it always defends its own existence, its own being. It doesn't need the narrative for the body to look after itself, to go to the toilet, to feed itself, to find a way to provide. The narrative is addition, is something added on top. And as much as that added narrative also has the wonderful good sides of it, because if not for that narrative, the communication that humans developed wouldn't be possible. Antelopes communicate and Alliance do communicate, but the communication is always relevant to the present moment and either danger or mating signal, very, very basic survival processes.
They don't have collective myths of origin or God or tribes or nations or families. They don't have ideas of races or philosophies. And those ideas connect us so deeply as humans. They allow us to collaborate and create the incredible achievements, build the bridges and build the skyscrapers and civilizations, airplanes. Collective knowledge and collective stories bind us together and put us in the top of the food chain, basically. But as much as wonderful they are and they are to be totally marveled at and admired and enjoyed, they also self-destructive. Because the same story which is telling you that you are an individual, it may tell you that you are from the, let's say, chosen nation, you are superior because you are whatever, from first world country or because of your skin color or because of your race or your gender.
But that story is never really enough to make you feel complete. Because as long as you, the totality, the pure witnessing consciousness, the infinite potential of absolute total expression and experiencing of the life as a total, however it is defined, if it is defined as limited, Limit to the body limited to the nation limited to the gender That not good enough That causes that sort of identification limited identification causes sense of not being enough being incomplete being deficient So that one causes, and of course, it's that sense of deficiency, it will be different in different individuals. There are ways to sedate it, there are ways to look the other way.
You can throw yourself into the work or into the creative art or music or into drinking or whatever. And the attention is taken away from that incompleteness, from that sense of lack for a moment. But you can't throw yourself into drinking or into painting or into working overtime forever. There will be a time sooner or later when you have to sit still and it will surface. The moment you sit still and you stop sedating, it will surface. What is it all about? Why am I here? Where am I coming from? Where am I going? What is it all about? Those sorts of existential questions. Wanting to find anything that will actually, initially it is an intellectual quest, I am going to be an answer, so that pool from within, a burning acid from the heart, what is it?
What is it all about? I can't get it. Do I feed in? What am I doing here? What the heck? So initially we look at religions. Oh yeah, there is God, God loves me. Yeah, okay, that will sedate it a little bit. But then we start and that's the nature, we start getting in terms going in some sort of a business transactions. Okay, God, you love me, so give me this. And well, sometimes it will come, sometimes it will not. And then the angst will surface again. Like, what the heck? What is that God? Why isn't he doing as I say? Or is it really there?
Or is it really love me? So that angst keeps coming up. So yes, initially the mind can try and answer those questions. But there is no question and no answer that comes from the head that will ever satisfy you for long. Because to start with, you have to remember it all the time. If you don't remember it, it will burn again. And you will have to find it and you will have to try and get back into it. And that is again fear-based, the resistance-based. That resistance that now something's not right, I don't want to be there, I don't want to not know what I am, who I am, why am I here, what am I doing.
So the seeking comes back. And the next thing, trying to sedate it, get something, look into the society around you and set yourself in the position that is comfortable. Okay, I'm not so bad, I have food and I'm not as stupid as some other people or I'm not as ugly as other people. And that is sedating again. I know people who actually just stay in that comparison mode for years and that angst doesn't surface because they're doing reasonably well and they're positive thinkers and they always kind of translate it to themselves that nah, you know, others have it worse. Media is one of the examples of that social way of sedating that existential angst, showing all the tragedies, all the dramas, all the bad news around and people see on one hand, oh, I'm so sorry for them, on the other hand, oh, I'm so grateful it's not me.
And then again, we are in the situation where the call from within to look deeper, look underneath that shallowness of superficial sedation of that call for investigation. That one is kind of quiet and down. But it will return. And if it doesn't, well, you can slide through life without asking deeper questions. And why not? From the one life or one essence perspective, there is no need to become a seeker and to release yourself from seeking by finding or by dropping the seeking. There's no need because the life as totality, as a collective, it has it all. In some people it experience the dreadful depression, in some other people it experiences the seeking or finding or not seeking.
That's not, it's nothing wrong, it's nothing ever wrong in the way life unfolds. But if you do find yourself here, it could be because the superficial methods of sedating or comparing or positive thinking didn't do the job. The call is strong enough the call for looking deeper finding the truth the longing for it like heartfelt longing I know there is more to life It is like the, it is the inherent wisdom that is there. I know there is a peace that is beyond just a silent mind, the peace that is... I'll just close the door because there's so much noise out there. Sorry. Yeah, so that's that innate knowing about that possibility that there is more.
Some people might have heard the stories that there is a state to be had called enlightenment or liberation or moksha or whatever it is. And in that state you're going to be in an eternal bliss forever and ever. And the seeking mind that wants pleasure, the seeking mind that wants to develop out of the survival need for the body, Because obviously seeking sweet taste rather than bitter, it kind of prevents you from eating poison. Being wired to find rather attractive mate keeps the species going. So all that seeking modes that mind has developed are actually serving the whole organism. And part of that narrative translating the natural urge for seeking pleasure and avoiding pain hijacks the idea of having a state that could be found or achieved and possessed by that individual.
And that's the story which usually brings the idea of seeking. Now there is me, the seeker, and wanting to find the truth, the enlightenment, the liberation, and achieve that state of mind in which I, the seeker, will be at peace. And what do I do to get it? I meditate or I surrender or I do this practice or this mantra and that I will get there eventually. Well, it is just a part of the journey often seems like there is no way to skip it or escape it, but it is a time waster. This is the part of the seeking in which the mind constructs the self, which is going to achieve something by effort and by whatever rigorous practice.
This is just the part of the seeking which is aiming at proving to the mind that this is not going to work. Translated by Rami Ghosh-Tawba, www.translatedbygosh-tawba.com I am a tool to sharpen your skill of concentrating. There is nothing wrong in training your mind, learning another language, or training your mind in calligraphy, or whatever you like to train the mind, or in the focus, in a concentration. Nothing wrong. But if the narrative says I'm sitting and I'm going to be sitting for 10,000 hours because this will allow me to achieve thing called enlightenment, well, unfortunately, you got to wake up from it. That idea that there is a me that can achieve something, applying the method, a technique, that's not how it is.
I am not sure how it is because if it is in the mind, if the answer is in the mind and the mind can achieve it, then that's not the ultimate answer. Because the mind can be lost. You can get Alzheimer's disease or you can play football and fall and hit your head and get brain trauma. So what would that be worth if there was something temporary and locked into that thinking, the conceptualizing? There is a question, I'll just read it. So would you say it is the mind, me, which seeks awakening or is it a movement of the absolute? Yeah, that's a brilliant question.
Thank you, Malcolm. Thank you, Malcolm. It's really always mind just narrating what is happening regardless of the mind. So any seeking is just a movement of the absolutes. There is nothing else moving. It's always a movement of the absolute. And on that movement of the absolutes, then the narration comes. And the narration says that, oh, there is a me. And I am seeking for it, for something out there. So the Absolute is not really seeking because it is itself already, but it is moving. There is a movement and that movement is interpreted by the mind as
Resistance not enough as seeking. So it one could also say that because I did hear that expressions that oh this is that in in some sort of philosophies they call itself or the absolute looking for itself.
But the absolute never lost itself. The absolute is ever still silent. It has never been separated. It is only the dream that came on the absolute. Let's say I'm now dreaming that I'm not the absolute, I'm dreaming that I'm a separate self. So let's say I'm an actor, I'm an actress and I go to the theatre and I'm gonna play a role of somebody. Let's say a guy who is miserable, his wife has cheated on him and he wants to take his life. So I'm going in the scene and I know, yeah, yeah, my wife is a bitch, how could she? I don't want to be here around.
And then the stage play is over and I go home and I stay miserable. But, you know, my wife, hey, I don't have a wife, I have a husband. Come on, just wake up from that idea of being separate. You, who you really are, me, Kat, my wife never cheated on me, I never had a wife. So I don't need to find me as Kat, I don't need to find that wife and revenge on her, Because she never existed. It was just a play. It was just imagination. In this way, me as the absolute, I don't have to find myself because I never lost myself.
It's just the dream that is overlaid on that beingness or being the absolute that has to cease. So the dream character can never find anything. The dream character has to stop. It has to cease to exist. So the dream character cannot recognize its own non-existence. The recognition comes from beyond the character. But it's not the absolute that is finding. There is nothing to be found. It's just cessation of the obscuration. It is ridiculously difficult to really even adequately describe it because there is no two. So even in saying that, okay, so the recognition comes from the absolute, the absolute recognises there is no self. Well, but the absolute knows there is no self, it's just the veil dropping away.
Yes, so really that's how, that's the position and the situation of the individual. Individual is the mask, this is a costume, it is a role the absolute is playing. How the costume, the role can actually wake up? How can it understand its own non-existence? How can it actually see or know or say anything at all? The only hope for that individual is to just dissipate, disappear and just stop. Another individual is the narrative. How to stop the narrative? Bob has a very, very good, sweet, easy reminder. What's wrong with right now if I don't think about it? Oh, for a moment there was no narrative.
When there is no narrative, there is no individual. For the moment, narrative stopped. For the moment there was no constructing of the self. I couldn't say I was either cut or that actor playing whatever on the stage or I was the absolute. I couldn't say what I am whatsoever because the thought wasn't there to tell me. Only the thought tells you what you are. Without the thought you know that you are, but what you are you don't know. So that's one way of looking at it. What's wrong with right now? Okay, nothing, nothing. That was the moment of just being, just plain being. But then what happens next?
The mind comes and says, yeah, don't tell me that's the enlightenment. Don't tell me that's the grand liberation. Come on. Did I do all the 20,000 hours and all the years of chanting and seeking just for this shit? There's nothing! Well, it is nothing for the mind. But the mind isn't there. If that pause in the narrative, if that pause can last a little bit longer, and the looking, what's wrong? Yeah the mind says yeah nothing Yeah Then for the mind is nothing nothing nothing strong Okay so what What what now But when the mind is completely gone when the mind really is released and in that pause in that emptiness the life is experienced through the core of the being undeniability of aliveness of radiance of being the miracle of life is known kind of non When the mind is completely gone, when the veil of the mind is gone, there is another center of wisdom.
It feels like a heart. It really feels like a heart. It's not the physical heart. But it does feel like that source of everything, the source of the universe, the center of the universe, unmovable center. It's not the mind, it's not the mind which causes nothing. It's the heart and in the heart is not nothing. It is beautiful, it is radiant, it is alive, it is juicy, it's yummy, there is a sweetness in it, there is a sweetness in being, there is a joy in being. So in that moment what's wrong with right now, the mind stops and then it kicks on again and say yeah all right but yeah I don't want that, This is boring.
I want something better. I want something more pleasant. Yeah, but the mind can't get it anyway. The mind can't get it no matter how pleasant it is. The only thing that the mind can experience is a passing phenomena. It's passing experience. Experience of breathing meditation, experience of blue light or red light I am not a person who is not aware of the existence of the mind. I am not a person who is not aware of the existence of the mind. Who cares? I mean, that's just another dream. So the mind can experience the dream. That's all it ever experience. Whether it sits in a meditation, whether it engages with the world, it experiences the dream, the daydream, or the night dream, or the like imagination type of a dream, or the waking dream.
Either way, it is just So, if not for the dream, if not the dream, what is ever there to be experienced? If everything that is constantly moving, changing, floating, fluxing over, just dancing in life is a dream, so what's there that would not be a dream? What is the dream? If all that I see, I hear, I think, I feel, if all that is a dream, what is it there that doesn't change, doesn't move, doesn't dance? What's that witnessing presence or consciousness? Can I ever get hold of it? Can I ever understand it? Can I ever grasp it? Now who would be grasping it? This is what the so-called mind, and there is no such thing as mind, mind is just thinking, mind is just a narrative.
So, the so-called narrative, in the narrative there is a construction of the mask or the self or the costume or the entity, separate entity, that is allegedly existing and is allegedly on the search trying to get to know mind. That's just so completely ridiculous. The narrative constructed the self and is trying to get out of that constructed self. It's identified as constructed self and being identified as constructed self is trying to annihilate the constructed self. It's like how much more movement and how much more noise to get you to stillness and to silence. Mind is just yapping, it's da-da-da-da-da narrative. And it wants to get through more yapping and da-da-da-da-da to the silence.
It's not gonna happen. To get to the silence, the yapping, the narration has to stop. And the mind is a constant movement, movement of interpretation, of comparison, all of that. And that movement, no matter how fast and how much, how much investment into the contemplation and seeking that mind, that energy is pumped in, is never going to get to stillness. Because the stillness is a condition for the movement. Sorry, I have to check on the council. Yes, so basically that's the one thing and Bob can't stress on this enough and that's really the one and only thing that can be understood conceptually and that have to be understood conceptually.
The answer is not in the mind. The mind will never ever get it. That's it. That's all that has to be understood by the mind. The rest is to be resonating with the pointers, rather listening with your heart than the mind. Because the mind will say, oh yeah, but there is a pointer, this or that, which is logical. I can use that logical pointer We had a couple of people really educated scholars on Sunday meeting I think Tony may come again And he is really helpful and I actually got an email with words of gratitude from someone who actually hear him logically explaining that dependent existence, I think, this is what we know us.
We know us interdependent co-arising. It's the same thing that yes, everything depends on everything. Yes, there is no separation between everything. Yes, it is logical. Yes, you can observe it. Yes, you can learn it. Yes, you can put a lot of contemplation into it, look into it and keep thinking, thinking, looking, thinking, looking, comparing, thinking, looking. In 30 years, you may still be amazed. Oh my God, this is true. And so what? That intellectual excitement, that amazement is pleasurable, but this is just another way of sedating that existential angst. Because the answer is not in the mind. Those may be helpful crutches. Because hearing those concepts that, oh, there is no separation, or we are all one, even that idea, we are all one.
Bob doesn't like it either because there's no we and it makes no sense to say we are all one. But anyway, hearing those or similar ideas, one without the second, not even one, existing but not existing, can't say. That is initially just too repelling. The following is from the book The I am not sure, because ultimately the answer is not in the mind. The era of intellectual excitement is part of the seeking which leads to the realization that you can't find it in the mind, that the answer is not there. That ultimately, no matter how exciting those intellectual endeavors are, they are not satisfying. Because you have to remember what you've learned, you have to think about it, you have to be busy with it.
It very often debilitates the normal functioning. Because instead of washing dishes, I'm thinking about interdependent colorizing of the water and the plate and whatever. Thinking. And then I find myself cutting a finger because of the knife that I was washing. It's just not... the truth cannot be found this way. Contemplation initially, when the mind is very, very active, may be a helpful tool, but ultimately it has to be transcendent. I had a question today from someone from Spain saying that he's actually being tortured by that nonduality and inability to find the truth. He is asking me what do I think about maybe taking a meditation.
He knows that meditation ultimately is not something that will give him, let him achieve the goal because there is no him and no goal. But perhaps it will, I don't know, keep the mind busy watching the mind. And he asked me what would I recommend. And I say, look, you know, life will take you where it takes you. The experience I had with meditation, Bob had plenty of experience with meditation as well, was definitely of value. As I said initially, it's good to have your concentration tool sharpened. Also, the meditation which brings the attention back to the body like vipassana, heals imbalances in the body, because that's the quality attention, that's the life essence.
It has healing properties. There is nothing wrong in training the mind. It's just that the ultimate answer is not in the mind regardless whether the mind is trained or untrained. Whether it is an easy mind, beautiful mind, busy mind, loud mind, quiet mind, it is to be transcended. The ultimate truth is not in the mind regardless of whether it is trained mind or untrained mind. So taking up the meditation or taking up the whatever surfing classes or writing creative writing or painting classes is there's nothing wrong in any of it. It's just that this is not a thing that individual can do to pull itself out of the human condition.
Because the individual cannot pull itself out. The freedom or liberation is from the individual, not for the individual. I don know if any of you experienced that sort of a I used to try scuba diving in a dry suit under the ice We would just dive under the ice and the lower down you go in a dry suit it just tightens so much apart from the cold water it tightens so much The costume becomes really tight and painful, not as much as the cold water as the tightness of the suit. You have to pump it out the air and so on. But this is what happens with the mind.
The mind constructs the individuality, identifies us, this or that star sign, or this or that gender, or nationality, or whatever it is. This one limits so badly the true natural existence or the natural state of Buddha nature or unborn mind state being open field of pure potentiality. However wonderful the identification may be, it is like zero and eternity. Being something rather than the totality, it always hurts. Of course, being a worthless piece of shit hurts more than being, you know, alright. It does hurt more and then that's how life has it. It is amazing how life has it so unjustly that some person is going through incredible calamities, incredible dreadful, horrible life of suffering, pain and abuse, and poverty and sickness, And death of the close ones.
And another one has privileged life. And it's not too bad. And it has everything fine. And from the individual perspective, that's terrible. No justice. Horrible. But from the absolute perspective, well, I have the tight dress and I have the loose dress. And I have the red dress and I have the black dress and I have the dress of the frog and the dress of the prince and the dress of the tree and the cloud and the salt. From the perspective of the infinite or the absolute, there is nothing wrong in experiencing the glimpses of being, the emptiness appearing as a form, any form. A form of a little turtle that lives only to feed a bird or a mosquito that lives only to be slapped on your hand and killed.
All their lives are just the way it dances. And now having the human costume and having the human story and having the attachment to form, identification with the form, fear of death, fear of not being there anymore. What an amazing costume. And the more suffering, the more pull for the liberation, the more pull for looking deeper. People who slide through without much bother often don't really look what's behind that costume. So, it is just as it is. There is no good or bad in being in that particular situation or that particular body or another. It's really just starting where we are and who we are and what we are.
And that start is just stepping out of that yapping mind, of that narrative, and stopping for a moment, pausing for a moment. And what's wrong? What's wrong when there's no thinking? And as much as possible, realizing that if there is a moment, even a split second of pure being, pure existence, where I am not defined as anything, I just am, but what I am, who I am, where I am, no stories. And then seeing and recognizing in that split second, in that moment, nothing is wrong. Everything comes up on it. So this is the primordial state. This is the ultimate truth. That blankness, that emptiness.
And from that perspective of that emptiness, of that blankness, everything that comes and goes is not that big of a deal. I've been bullying at work and it's not that big of a deal. I mean, look, there is that plane of pure space-like awareness, the pure being, existence, and on that things come and go. I don't have a boyfriend, I don't have an iPhone or something. The realization of what really is the ultimate truth, the ultimate truth of being puts all the dream into perspective. And all the dream is seen for what it is. The inconvenience was very inconvenient, Bob was being in that isolation, that confinement, incredibly inconvenient, but it was passing phenomena.
It was never bigger or more important than the pure essence of existence. The moment that pure essence of existence, that being is being acknowledged, is being recognized as that base, and is being recognized not in the intellectual way, that yeah, there is some sort of a theoretical nothing that everything comes and goes, yeah, I get it, of course, yeah, well, whatever the space, but in the loving way. Not in the intellectual wisdom sort of an empty way, but in the way where it actually, ah, right, wow, yes, there is a miracle of life. There is some not-thing, some no-thing there, the fullness. Because just getting a grasp, getting a little taste of that fullness, and the rest happens for you.
The rest is going to happen for you because the love is there. The love for the truth is there. The longing for it is there. And if the longing is there, it's obviously because it is being known. It is known. Nobody is dreaming or even in the dream or fantasizing about something they don't know. I want the iPhone or I want to be respected or I want million dollars, but I don't want something totally intangible. So, the longing is for that particular peaceful, quiet, joyous knowing underlying everything. Because that's the inherent knowing. That's something that is never far away. That's something that is always there because apart from the narrative clouding it and obscuring it, that's who we are.
That's the essential nature, even in the bodily existence, in the womb or as a little baby or as a young child. That being, that light, peaceful, joyous miracle of existence is always there. And then things pop in and go, you know, oh, I have this problem or that problem. How do I solve that? How important is that? How important is this or that problem or this or that desire? If you actually understand that this is a content of the dream. And don't get me wrong, the solution to the problems, they show up as the problems show up. The narrative is the overlay that translates natural activity into the narrative.
The narrative is the overlay that translates natural activity into the narrative. Everything is being followed up. The narrative is the overlay that translates natural activity, what Malcolm was saying, the movement of the Absolute, the movement of energy. The movement of energy transformed by the body into the seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, thinking. This is the movement of the Absolute. And on top of that natural transformation of energy into the experiencing, there comes a narrative creating the world of duality. There is me here versus you or the world out there. So this overlay of the narrative can be questioned and in this way the dream is not going to disappear.
The experiencing is not going to disappear. The seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, thinking is still happening. The brain functions, the lungs, the heart, everything functions. But the translating into the dualistic world of being a victim, of being fearful, of being not enough, of needing to fix myself, find something, That one is being questioned. That nightmare ends. And if it comes up, it's not being believed, it's being witnessed as a dream. If the narrative comes and tells me, oh, I'm feeling so bad, oh, I'm so worthless, that's not being believed. I had another question from someone from America this morning that was actually quite interesting. Interesting, no, I have Bob on this one, I can't read it.
But he was asking if I still experience those uncomfortable sensations like sense of... Gosh, maybe I can actually find it because it was really well said, the way he said it. Do you ever find the patterns of being heartbroken or enraged or anything like that anymore? I know Bob would say don't label it, but come on, a feeling is a feeling. Yeah that a good question That shows up how one of another layer of expectation that okay if you get it or you find it or you enlighten or whatever the bullshit concept is put on it then you will never be capable of experiencing certain patterns certain energies or certain emotions or certain feelings will be taken away forever No, that's not true.
Nothing is going to be taken away. The realization that there is no self is followed by the realization that there has never been a self. So if let's say I realize there is no self today and yesterday I felt heartbroken because my friend committed suicide, it means that today I won't feel the same feeling because yesterday there was a self and today there is no self? I am not a self, not whatsoever. Yesterday there was no self either. Ten years ago there was no self. Twenty, thirty, forty years ago there has never been a self. Self is imagined. So if I was experiencing heartbreak when I was imagining self and now I don't imagine self, the energy, the feelings, they are all the same.
They are totally possible. I actually answer him that I do find these patterns and I absolutely love them. It hurts to lose friends or see loved one in pain. As uncomfortable as it is, at the same time, it is delightful to be able to feel deeply because I recognize love behind these patterns. There is no resistance, no preference for something else to be here instead. Perfection of this pattern arising in this situation is obvious. So there is no idea that, OK, I will never feel enraged because now there is no self and only self can get enraged. Self can get nothing. Self is a shadow.
So shadow doesn't get enraged. We say, oh, the ego, the ego gets angry or the ego gets... There is no ego. This is an image. It is an imagination that there is an ego. So, and yes, he answered himself also. The truth is, I don't usually label it. It just don't come up. The label doesn't come up. Let's say I see the loved one in pain and the heart feels the energy, but there is no label. I don't think, oh, what is it? Is it... I am not sure what to call it. What is that feeling? Cold? What is it in my language, in Polish, what is it in English?
No, it's just quiet. It's just a feeling as it is, the raw energy. And boy, I would hate not to have it. I mean, this is stupid to say because I wouldn't if it wasn't there. But it is just so beautifully appropriate to the situation that I wouldn't have it any other way. Translating the world as it is and seeing perfection in all the arising, uncomfortable feeling arise, or I stub my toe and the pain and the reaction and the swear word arise. And this is all brilliant, including the swear words. It's all brilliant. That's just how the body responds. I am not the body, the body responds this way.
I am the witnessing consciousness in which the response is being witnessed. And it's fascinating, it's interesting, it's curious. So moving through life, having the dream in the right perspective and learning how your body is dealing with life, with itself, with the arising, with interacting with the environment. And having no preference for it to be any other way, having no resistance to whatever is appearing, even if the resistance is appearing. Because that's also the movement of energy, that's also the movement of absolute, all the movement as Malcolm pointed, is a movement of the absolute, even the thought moving, that's the absolute, that's the totality moving. Even the darkest clouds clouding the sun are the totality moving, the absolute moving.
Even the ego, the imagined self is the absolute, the totality moving. That's the movement. And if not for that movement, there would be no realization. The realization is just by the contrast. The realization happens because the whole appearing world, the whole manifested world is the world of contrasting. Black and white, top and bottom, up and down, day and night, winter and summer. That's the world of contrast, of duality. So even the sense of freedom is only known in comparison to sense of contraction. Even the sense of waking up is only known in contrast of falling asleep. Like I can see my cats when they wake up from the dream they had.
They don't wake up from that daydream because they are not daydreaming. We are daydreaming and we can wake up from the daydreaming to that reality of present moment. And that reality of present moment is always friendly. There is nothing wrong unless the concept comes and judges it as wrong Even if there is pain that pain is what the totality which is you The I am the source of manifestation. Even if the manifestation is uncomfortable, it is thy will, it is your will, you are at one with that life. It doesn't mean that attending to it won't happen, that's also at one. Pain happens, grabbing the medication, pain medication happens, it all happens.
Swearing on top of pain happens, it all happens. Ultimately, what you are is that witnessing presence in which it happens. Would anyone like to say something or share something? Something theoretical, practical? Or maybe drop a question? I can see there is a question coming up. I don't know if anyone would like to just even unmute yourself and speak because this one is, oh this is a nice one, Indran. If I think about it honestly, I'm not really seeking the end of me. Wonderful. Too afraid to lose everything I have ever known. I just want to get as far from unnecessary suffering as I can. Until the me can fall away by itself at the point of death or earlier.
Is there any advice for the me in this case? This is a beautifully put question. This is great because the seeking is really moving away from suffering. Often it is chasing the enlightenment, chasing pleasure, but as much as chasing pleasure, it is also moving away from pain because that unbearable pain of unworthiness, of being not enough, of not being lovable, of being deficient and incomplete It's just longing to extinguish it. The thing is, I think I love the way Bob puts it, when it is recognized, when the source, that the source of all the suffering, all the psychological suffering is the me, it's only the me that can be unworthy.
It's only me that can be deficient and unlovable. When it is realized that the me is the source of all suffering. And there is no other way, there is no other way to go, there is nowhere else to look, but to look directly at that me. What is that me? And you're right, in the looking, initially, you don't look to try and kill it. Again, Bob has this beautiful analogy of Ban Ki, the Zen monk, looking at the me to kill the me, or having an ego to kill the ego. It's like washing away blood with blood. It's impossible. It's not going to happen. The me is not going to kill or end the me.
The ego is not going to kill the ego because the ego would remain anyway. It's totally impossible. So, the seeking the end of me is probably, well, it is kind of, when you understand that the me is the source of all the psychological suffering, you kind of want to be done with psychological suffering, which means being done with me. But it isn't really that obvious that the me has to go away, the me has to be killed, because it brings some sort of suicidal ideations. That's not the way to look at it. But if you kind of follow the suffering and, oh, I'm suffering because I don't have enough money, and you start chasing money, or I'm suffering because I don't have a boyfriend or girlfriend, I am not seeking the end of me, too afraid to lose everything.
Yeah, that's, there's nothing to lose, really. But you can't really take it on, you can't believe anything I say, you have to actually find out for yourself. I wouldn't believe any word whatsoever. Someone tells me it's nothing to lose, jump off the building, no, don't, don't do it. I just want to get as far from unnecessary suffering as I can. Unnecessary suffering. So if you actually see how unnecessary suffering happens, and then you realize that unnecessary suffering is resistance to what is arising, and it is the narrative around what is arising. For example it raining That not a big suffering But if you tell yourself oh it always raining it always happens to me I was supposed to go on a picnic now I can go yeah that is already suffering And when the story goes, yes, this is me, I don't deserve anything better, yes, life is just, I just get what I deserve, that's, suffering grows.
So you can see how the unnecessary suffering comes from resistance to what is arising and is building up on it to the point that I don't even want to be there. The whole world is against me. My body is against me. Even the weather is against me. Everything's against me. I'm the victim. That's horrible. So that creates the situation when the suffering is really acute. And that's all unnecessary suffering. Because the moment you realize that it comes from the chatter, from the narrative, and it dissipates, completely disappears, the moment you stop the narrative. What's wrong with right now if I don't think about it? Nothing.
The What happened with the me? The fact that the me is gone is a byproduct. And what was lost when the me was gone for a moment, for five seconds, when I don't conceptualize the me, there is no me. A breathing is happening, the body is still alive, the house is there as it always was, the bank statement is just the same as it ever been, but there is no thought about it, nothing's being lost. I pause the thinking for a moment. Me disappears. The presence is there. I'm by all means the presence, sense of presence. Yeah, I can't deny my existence. But now I am, but I am not me anymore.
It's just the I am. To say that I am me, I'm a woman, I'm from Poland, I'm this and that, that requires thought. Without the thought, there is a presence. But that presence is unidentified. That presence is limitless, boundless. It doesn't have any shape or it doesn't have any end. Like I can't say that that presence ends where the body ends. No, I can't say anything without the thought. So it's just the being. And I could call it I am, I could even call it me. But that me doesn't have any self-definition. So in that sense, me doesn't stop existing. If I call the I am sense of presence, if I call it me, I could say the me never goes away.
What goes away is the costume that the me is wearing. I am deficient, I'm not good enough, I'm a woman, I'm a human. Bob has that funny conclusion. After all, I'm only human. That's the worst. I'm only human. I'm prone to make mistakes, errors. Only human. That's the identification and it only comes with thinking. So the sense I am, that one is never, is never going to go. I mean, it may, the The consciousness of that sense, I am, may be absent when you are on general anaesthetic or in a very, very deep sleep and the memory is not recording it. But you can't say there isn't a me or there isn't the sense of presence of I am.
You just can't say anything about it. So, in that sense, me is not endangered of extinction or existence. It's not that suddenly that sense of aliveness is going to be disappearing and I'm going to be a zombie without the me. No, it's nothing to lose in realising that what I am is not what I think I am. I'm not this little deficient piece of unworthiness. I am, but I'm not this. I'm not this body, I'm not this mind, I'm not this idea of myself. I'm not the concept, I'm not the mask of past memories. I'm not what I identify myself to be, but I am.
And when I realize that I am, even without the story, there is no suffering, nothing is lost. The heart is beating, the eyes are seeing, the ears are hearing. Everything is happening as it always did. Only the self-definition is a little bit loosened up. If you actually see, because you asked the question, the unnecessary suffering, see what happens, even advice for the me in this case. See what happens even if the self-definition gets a little bit lighter. If that sense of what I am, even that, you know, the positive thinking, I have the negative self-image, I'm ugly, I'm stupid, nobody loves me, I don't deserve to be here, I will always be bullied and, you know, that sort of self-definition.
Oh yeah, that suffering is quite strong, you know, I'll never find someone, I'll never be with anyone, I'll never make any money, this is who I am, I'm just not good enough. That self-definition causes a lot of suffering. Even changing that self-definition to, oh yeah, I'm okay, you know, I'm not too bad, I'm alright, you know, life is supportive, even that already reduces the suffering. The me is there, but now I am not this very, very contracted, victimized, poor little worthless piece of shit. Now I'm something a little bit, yeah, it's not so bad, I'm alright, I mean, I'm average, I'm just like everyone else, come on.
Even that already eases the suffering. Less alone when there is no costume whatsoever and the freedom of just being without being something in particular. It's incredible. It's just the difference is immeasurable. Being without being a thing, a little thing encapsulated in the story, in the mid-body. So the being is never lost. There is no danger of losing the existence of the being. So that fear of losing the me, actually I see it as well as love for life. You know, like, oh, I don't want to lose the me because I love to be. So in this way, the loving to be is something that is beautiful.
Wanting to be a way of suffering is loving to be. Wanting to be done with the unnecessary pain and unnecessary self-identification that is limited and is hurtful is love for life, is love for self. In this way, even seeking is love for the self. Everything is, every movement is love for the absolute. Every movement is the expression of love. The stillness is the potentiality and the movement is the actuality of that expression of love. I don't know if that question, if I actually even answered it. The advice, is there any advice? Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, the advice is, you know, Bob has this beautiful, and you can't go wrong with that ever.
Watch your mind. Just see how it operates. Just see how it functions. See how it constantly chases pleasure, avoids pain. Just see without any judgment. Learn. Just be curious about that whole organism, about even, you know, even trivial things like there is a tendency to choose pizza over salad. Interesting. Without the judgement, oh yeah, but that's ugly, that's bad, that shouldn't, I don't know. If that kicks in, oh, just include that in watching. There is a preference for that behaviour, you notice it. There is a preference of having judgement for that behaviour and having preference for another, just notice it. There is a maybe an unhappiness about that preference over the unhappiness about the judgment over the preference.
Notice that one too, and just be curious because it is absolutely fascinating. And that's the only body-mind organism that you could actually get to know so intimately close like no one else. You with it for 24-7 on all of your life and just having that curious, embracing, non-judgmental, allowing sort of accepting attention towards it. Just that well-wishing benevolent curiosity towards it like, oh let me get to see you, The mind let me get to see you, the body okay, you know like you run and you feel the muscles, oh yeah I can feel it, notice it and then the mind gets activated and oh yeah maybe I've overdone it, oh I've noticed, notice the commentary and as you are noticing the body and the mind you already looking at them as an object appearing in the witnessing consciousness so you are already being This is a free space-like presence of awareness or awareness of presence in which you are just noticing phenomena.
And as you see the phenomena with all the curiosity and love for the phenomena, occasionally, if it just comes easily and naturally, just notice what is noticing it. You see the noticing is happening. Oh, what is noticing? It's almost as that movement. Okay, I'm seeing, but what's seeing? Oh, I'm seeing, noticing the judgment. Oh, what is noticing it? There's nothing to be found. You won't find anything there. You might find some sort of an illusion of the me traveling. I am having a commentary that I prefer the chocolate ice cream Okay so this is I in the chocolate ice cream but I am the one that is watching it So the eye travels here watching it And now oh who is watching the eye Oh, there's another now the eye travels here and watches the eye watching the eye.
And then, you know, it's really just stepping back into the whole, seeing the whole nature of the observation to the point when it gets completely unlocated. And that is a particular way of thinking of our world ... It may be the same way the seeing happens. What is seeing? It may seem that we are seeing something coming out of here. We see that the darkness is in the void. It may seem that all the colors are coming from the light and everything. What happens in the middle? What is there? I can't even say it. I can't. I am trying, what's there? Nothing. Oh gosh, okay.
But I'm trying. And when I'm trying to sense where is the seeing starting, where am I actually noticing the whole thing from? Noticing, trying to notice the seeing. Somewhere around there. Okay. How do I know that? Well, because it is the pure knowing, pure, unlocated knowing. So noticing the content and noticing the noticing, it brings so much lightness into life by merely changing the distribution of attention. Because right now, instead of attending, giving that life essence to the narrative, torturing you and constantly chatting, this was wrong, this was... Now, instead of engaging, giving that life essence, pouring that electricity into this device, narrating, Now that energy is disengaged, that certain amount of that available energy is disengaged, that attention, and is invested in noticing.
So that already eases the suffering immensely. Not only when you actually find the delight in looking at the miracle of arising. I am the one who is responding. Wow, that's incredible. Who would have thought? You know, that's how I'm responding to this. And that's the emotion when this happened. Wow, interesting. So in that sort of curious, relaxed attention, this amount of energy is being released. That's the free attention. It's already light and joyous. And you can't go wrong. You can't go wrong, because noticing is happening regardless. It's just that the more noticing, the less narrative. Because this computer has only limited amount of processing capacity and the processing speed.
It can only process that much. So if it is processing the noticing, it can't process the narrating. Anyone would like to unmute and say something? What can I say? Hi, beautiful. Hey, gorgeous. Yeah, I love your spiels. How about that? Is that enough? I love you too. I love your spiels, but I do love you. Absolutely love you. But I also love I love your, your the cat spiel. It's been it's, it's lovely. So there's just nothing else to say. I don't know what to say. It's um, yeah, can you add to perfection? Thank you. You know, it is it is your innate resonating. That's Thank you for being here and for resonating because yeah, this isn't obvious when you talk and think and you look at it, isn't it obvious?
It's just so obvious. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I do sometimes I beat myself up for still coming because it's mind-canny and obviously I'm valuing entertainment over the stillness. Okay. You have no say. That's right. That's right. So there. Here I am. Anyway, keep on, keep on keeping on. You're lovely. Just say I wanted to jump in and just, you know, I don't know. Yeah, you know, you know, something. I will share one thing. So you've seen this. You've been to my place before. But people on Facebook here have not. So I'm going to share this thing that I'm going to share. I got this Jim Carrey painting in my home.
Okay, and I'll show it to y'all. Good idea. So I really like it. So I'll just read it to y'all in case you can't see what it says. It says and in that moment he was freed from the prison of becoming I really love it because sometimes So true. Huh? So true. Yeah. Well, sometimes, occasionally, there's a thought that, you know what? I should be more interested in the stillness than the mental caca. I should be more quiet. I should be more still. I should be more. And there's this interest. I catch it. I see it happening. And then I remember my Jim Carrey painting.
I don't have to become more still. It's okay. And the shooting. The shooting. Yeah, I know, and that's using the mind, I get it. I was thinking about, yeah, I'm just reminding myself again of something you said, yes, it's using a pointer, but, you know, it's a nice pointer to bring me back to just I am, it's fine. Yeah, you're gorgeous, you're perfect, absolutely perfect. Takes one to know one. And look, you know, I started the day this morning, we have Bob on the call, from playing our songs and singing the gambler and doing other entertainment. Why would that entertainment be better than any other?
You know, ultimately, the love for life is the love for all the walks of life, for seeing beauty, for getting, you know, beautiful music, beautiful sunset. There is nothing wrong in anything that is happening. It's only the narrative that calls it. Like Bob quoting Shakespeare, nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so. Yeah, but there's this new cuss word that I got ever since I met you guys. Seeker, seeker, being a seeker, you see. You know, that's, oh, that's bad. Even if nothing is good about it. It's not, it's not. I see, it's actually, when I look back at the story, The story of seeking that ended about six plus years ago is a beautiful, beautiful story.
It's not bad. It's what it is. And honestly, I wouldn't change the experiencing, the longing, the being between the monks in the monastery and ashrams. My gosh, it was delicious, it was delightful, it was beautiful. The thing is, it's just kind of a... what we say, sometimes it hurts, it causes suffering, it is dictated by the sense of wanting a relief. So what actually, what is the source of the seeking? Is the sense of not being enough, of life not being enough, me not being enough? I don't know, you know, because it's like if it's happening, it's not even noticed. It's just kind of like, I mean, you could say that my wanting to enter to be entertained is a form of seeking something other than this moment.
Right? Something. Only in the narrative. Only narrative says that. If there is no narrative, whether you listen to music or you watch the movie or you eat the ice cream or you listen to Alan Watts, there is no difference. It's only the narrative that comes and makes it dirty or wrong. Because, you know, for the most part, I'm just like, you know, and you know, there's still like this, like, there's not this, I was talking yesterday to this guy who you might meet tomorrow, I don't know. Yeah, he was like saying, you know, you're You're just like a quote monster. I want something original from Julia.
Yeah, you are a quote monster. You definitely are. And I'm like, yeah, it's true. But I look at it like, you know, I mean, remember, we won't mention his name, but the guy who ripped off Bob's stuff and then took credit for it. I'm like, I don't think that's right. I like to give credit where credit's due. So if I learned it from Alan Watts or I heard that quote from Bob or I heard it from Nisargadatta, I like to tell people where I heard it. I don't like to pretend it was my own, how woke I am. It's me. It was my idea. It was my quote.
I like to just give credit where credit is due. Of course, but you know what he meant? He meant, you know what, I can read those quotes in the book. I want to speak to you, not to them. But it's almost like my thinking, I think in quotes though. So it's like a lot of my thoughts just show up in the form of like, you know, yeah, it's like, it just seems that way anyway. You know, like, I'll catch myself getting upset about something or whatever and I'll go, wait, is that here now? Right. And who gives a shit? Who has a problem with this?
What's wrong with right now if you don't think about it? Can you have a problem without a thought? And all these things, that's what shows up in the thinking. It my thought but it still someone else you know what I saying There a few things that show up as I trying to think but then again it like there nothing original There's nothing original. I don't think there's anything that I can come up with. And at the same time, everything's original. Yeah. But yeah, I've not been able to, not too much. Once in a while, I'll come up with a, trying to think of. A Julia-ism, a Julia quote.
Yeah, the best thing is just not to think, you know. When you are in a conversation and they really want to, you know, it's just like Jesus and the Sermon on the Mount. They ask him, what are you going to be talking about? And he says, I don't know. I'll show up, open my mouth and the Father will speak. So because you know like we don't exchange you don't torture me with that many quotes when we interact we're just being you and and you know you just yeah well I don't I don't give you nonduality skills either not usually but it was like last night it was my uh my little Sedona Method meeting and I was teaching the Sedona Method and this guy who showed up before showed up again really interesting.
I was just wondering, he seemed, he didn't really want to, he wasn't interested. I think he, I don't know. Anyway, he just wanted to like stare into my eyes and do the, you know, the staring thing. And I was like, okay, well. I have no questions. I've got shit to do. Anyway, I'm sorry. I'm doing small talk where we should be like, I should be... Don't shoot at yourself. That's sweet. You know, you're sharing your beautiful radiant energy, your gorgeous bubbly light radiance. That's yummy. Yeah, don't shoot on yourself. But yes, we actually over time and we're gonna just... Oh, Bob has switched off the camera by mistake, but he's with us on the call, by all means.
Hey, Bob. Love you, Bob. I'm excited you're getting out of prison tomorrow. Yeah, they will hear you, darling, if you say something. You want to say something, Bob? What? I haven't switched off any camera. Oh, yeah, I know, but we can't see you, but you can see everyone. I'm happy you're getting out of prison tomorrow, Bob. I can't say anybody. Well, can't you? I haven't been able to say any. Okay, I'll just, yeah, let's just turn the camera the other way. Can you see now? No. No, okay. Well, let me just do it again. Yep. Yeah, unfortunately the technology, he's got really, really super sexy big hands and big hands and a small phone means the Wi-Fi goes off, means the airplane mode is being activated and a lot of other things.
So we often have to just redo it. But that's the last day of imprisonment. Now it's gonna be, now you can see. And everyone can see you. Love you, Bob. Love you. I am very happy to be here. I am very happy to be here. Can you pull your camera a little bit more down because they can't see you. Just show us your face. I see a forehead anyway. There he is, there he is. Hi. Hi Bob, it is so nice to see you. Hi Kat, hi Julia, hi Jo. So nice to hear everyone, it's good to hear that Bob's getting out tomorrow. Yeah, that's nice, that's exciting and I just wanted to say thank you Kat, thank you for your spiel but thank you for the narrative, for talking about the narrative, the voices, you know, that really helps Thank you for being here with us.
And yes, it really is just to be curious about your story, admire it, enjoy it, and don't believe it. And call me anytime. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Oh, Bob, you're looking beautiful. Don't know if you can hear it, but you're looking handsome. Need to dash guys. Thank you. Thank you, Malcolm. Yes, we are. We are going and then next zoom. Thank you, everyone. Next Zoom Bob is going to be here and Sunday, whoever can join us at home, you're welcome to. And lots of love to everyone. Love you. Bye Bob. Bye bye. Thanks, Kat. All the best, Bob. Thank you, Bob. Love you. Bye Kat.
Bye bye.