This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
Okay, so we got into it. Just now we were talking about, I was telling him there was an email which came from a young man only 25 who is doing serious seeking, a lot of sadness and a lot of progress and he loves himself dearly. He's got this sense of self-love, but he still feels that he's missing the essence and still something's not right. There is still some sort of a... Something's missing, you know, the feeling when there is no sense of completeness, there is something's wrong. So I just basically briefed him, answered him that, you know, in a week time you should be able to speak with Bob.
We will arrange a Skype call. And I was quite tempted to tell him that it's nothing that Bob is going to give you that you don't already have, but you just keep overlooking it. Because that's the whole point. There is no one to break through, there is no one to find enlightenment, there is no one to get liberated. It's the absence that is to be found, the absence of separate self. That's the liberation, that's the freedom. With realizing the fact of no-self, the sense of incompleteness, insecurity, the sense of uneasiness, the need to complete, to find something, drops away because there's nothing wrong anymore. If there is no one there who experienced something wrong, then obviously there is nothing wrong.
And it is also nothing to be found because what is there is just invisible for the eyes, can't be denied. So it is already here. It's not that you do a lot of sadhana, you do a lot of meditation, a lot of chanting, and you will find it, you will arrive at it. No, because it is always already here. It is... So that thing that has never been far away, that is always already here, and it has been overlooked, it is being ignored, because it is invisible for the eyes, it is unthinkable for the mind, it is tasteless, it is textureless, it doesn't have any flavour.
So for the mind, which is seemingly the only instrument through which we know and experience the world, for that mind it is nothing. I think I've done the wrong thing actually. Yeah, sorry Dan, I just muted the wrong button. Yes, so for the mind it really is nothing. So how could that be found? How can mind, which is a movement, find the stillness, which is the absence of movement? How can mind find the absence of the mind? It can't possibly. So if the mind or the constructed costume or the mask wants some sort of a confirmation that, oh, I am that, I'm getting it. Well, of course, it's a story, it's an illustration, but it also shows the trap of the mind.
When something gets clear, like, yeah, of course, I get it, you know, there is no free will. I get it, it's obvious. Or yeah, I get there is no self, nobody ever found it. Yes, I'm getting it, I'm getting it. So you think I'm not getting it? Oh fuck all, I'm getting it. Who is getting it? Is there someone who gets something? Who needs the confirmation? Who needs someone, the guru or the mother or the crowd to know and believe that you are enlightened? This is something, this is a great invitation to look deeper. What is that pattern which actually... Are you there? Yes. Okay.
Where is that? What is the source of that sort of angst or anxiety, the approval seeking? They need to confirm me. Because otherwise I'm still deficient. Maybe if they tell me that I'm enlightened, I will be happy at last. My happiness is dependent on someone else's confirmation of my enlightenment. Whose enlightenment? There is no one there. Oh yeah, yeah, I get that. But do you? If you get that, you don't need ever anyone ever to confirm you because there is no you. So this is really the invitation to look what is it there that we missing in the whole picture. Yeah, I get there is no free will, I get there is no self, I get there is but...
What after the but? Yeah, you know, I just keep seeking because it is attractive, because it's interesting, because I like to listen to everybody else. Well or maybe you can stand the silence Or maybe the habit of engaging with the mind is so attractive mind at any time So, just noticing that there is still a very, very strong preference for the imagined world over the world that is experienced. That is actually, there is nothing need to be done about it. It's all really always and ever about the plain recognition. So it isn't really that, okay, now I know what's wrong with me, I have to fix it.
Now I know that I'm more attracted to the story or to the explanation, justification or understanding, or being able to show it to people, prove it to people that look, I'm right, there really is no self, Look, I'm right, there really is no free will. There really is. That suddenly become more important and more attractive than leaving that truth moment to moment. Oh, but you know, I just wanna share it because it will help them. Ah, that's another trap. That's also worthy of looking at. Yeah, I wanna share it because, you know, there's something that really helped me. So I'm in a better position than them.
They still suffer and I'm free, so I'm superior. Now I'm going to teach them, I'm going to save them, I'm going to fix them. They're broken. That's why they sometimes say, if they ask you three times, and it is really a genuine request for guidance, that's when you actually answer the question. Not that like that debate circle in London Square, I think there is a place where everyone gets a bucket or bundle of books and jump on them and speak out publicly and whoever wants to listen, they engage in debate and proof. And a friend of ours sent us a link once to a guy who was proving, the Muslim guy proving Christians that Bible is stupid.
And he claims he is clear. And we managed to actually go through like a minute and a half. And yuck! Really? You find this attractive? Is that a source of pleasure? It was aggressive. It was just rough. And it was so overly intellectual. There was no willingness to actually step into the other shoes and see, Well, what about the truth is innate? What about the truth is everywhere? What about the truth is in every like seed of every religion? What if everything is manifestation of that source essence? And if you know how to look at it and where to look, you see it everywhere. You look at the leaf and you follow the little pattern in the leaf and you see the pure perfection.
Or you look at the dancing particle of dust in the ray of light and wow it is everywhere. It's nowhere that it is not. So it is in the Bible. It is also of course there is a lot of concepts. But if you know what is the cause, original cause of the concepts is the life essence. If not for that concept would be impossible. Every thought is expression of that. Every sight is an expression of that. If you know the truth, you can't miss it. But if you look with the instrument designed to compare, analyze and assure the survival, make sure that you only the body mind is safe and it gets pleasure and avoids pain.
You use that instrument, that computer, to finding what caused its existence, futile. Before the computer was built, that essence already existed. The computer cannot find its origin. And of course, even in talking about finding the origin, we are in the story. Who wants to find what? And origin assumes time. So, any way of approaching the topic with the assumption that there is something to get or something to understand is the wrong approach. It takes you nowhere. It's really all about recognizing what is already here and what has never not been here, but it can't be seen with the eyes. Space is invisible. It can't be heard with the ears.
The silence is inaudible. So none of the sensory instrument and none of the computing capacity can actually grasp it So trying to find it and add to myself is futile First of all there is no it and there is no self to be added to So it really is what is it? Always being there never changes. What are we overlooking? I love when Bob brings that example of looking into memories, into the mind. Even that, because everything, it pervades everything. Everything is suffused with that. So you can find it everywhere. Even looking into the memories. What do you remember? How do you know you were young?
How do you know you were a child? How do you know there was a yesterday or a month ago? You were there, but what was there? The body was different. 10,000 cells changed in last couple of days, maybe more, maybe millions. The mind was different. There were completely different thoughts running through it. Even self-image was different. You might have been in a different mood. And when you change your mood, the worldview changes. You feel depressed and the whole world is hostile. Nobody loves you. You are ugly and stupid. You are in a great mood. Oh no, I'm actually quite all right. And the life is supportive.
And I have a lot of friends. No, it's not too bad. Complete change with a little event or with the little neurotransmitter changing. You eat a chocolate or you drink a coffee and the worldview and the self-image changes, less alone other substances. So that's not what I am either. Not the body, not the mind, not the thoughts, not the self-image. What was there throughout the whole memorizing, whole events that are stored somewhere in the memory? And they're not. You know, the time is just a pointer in this situation. So what was there? The aliveness, the presence, the being. But can that be grasped? By who?
Being cannot grasp the being. Actually, I woke up with that question because my country, where I come from Poland is on the other side of the world, so it's 10 hours time difference. And sometimes I wake up and there is a question in Polish language there from the people I do know or I don't know. The question was, can we ever get to know ourselves? Is it worthwhile to try and get to know ourselves? And oh my gosh, really? We talked about it three years ago, and you actually heard it at that time. There's no one to get to know. What do you mean know what?
You want to know the body? Go study biology, why not? You want to know the brain? Go study psychology, whatever. But what you ever know, what you ever gonna get to know is an object in consciousness. You can get to know your behaviors. You can get to know the preferences of the body. And by all means, why not? Yes, watch it, it's amazing, it's an incredible privilege to be able to see that marvelous, marvelous machinery working, interacting with the world. Absolutely. Get to know the car you're driving, totally. But is that really knowing the self? Can you ever know yourself? Can the eye see itself?
It can see reflection, but not itself. Can the nose smell itself? Can the tongue taste itself? Can the fire burn itself? No. Can the consciousness know itself? No. It would have to divide itself into two and there would be a knower and a known. I am the Knower. It can't get to know itself. Not to mention that knowing in the way we understand the world is sort of a movement, is sort of a grasping. How would it grasp itself if it is all there is? And how could it know itself if this is a knowing principle? So what a beautiful, ambitious, romantic idea. Oh, everybody tells us, love yourself, know thyself.
Can you actually know yourself as an object? You can't because then you are not the object, you are subject, getting no, it's not possible. But can you deny your existence? Ask the consciousness that you are You can paint the picture of what you are you can describe it you can circumference it or give it a shape or form or pattern because where would you be looking at it from It impossible You would be behind or beyond that shape or pattern so it wouldn be you anymore I am the observed not the observing So that can't be known, it can't be found, it can't be located, but it also can't be denied.
This is what we are overlooking. I am going to find myself. Lose yourself first. See if you can. Try and not be. But of course, if I think I am an ego, okay, I can disbelieve the ego. So I am the ego and now ego has been dispelled, I am not an ego. But I still am. Whatever I want to put on myself that I am, it doesn't really matter. But I still am. And that existence for the mind is nothing. It's no object, doesn't have shape, form, pattern, taste, flavour, nothing. But for the heart, don't you love that being most of all? Even on the physical level, every creature instinctually protects their being, cherish even the physical appearance of the being.
The physical is the way it manifests, it is the way it expresses itself. It gives itself the eyes so it can see, it gives itself the body so it can taste, touch, smell, feel. But beyond that body through which it expresses, it is the most precious source of aliveness, Lineage terms, radiance, You turn the camera back upside down Bob. You can see us but they can't see you. Yes, so this is what everyone is looking for and it can't be found. So who is looking? Look who is looking. Because maybe there is just looking and no one doing it. If you see the seeking or the looking as just a floating pattern through the consciousness, completely impersonal, completely not yours, not you, not mine, Then you just see it for what it is and no more attention is given to it.
It's just noticing, but there is no one doing the noticing. And it is impossible to find the observer or the witness. Okay, sorry, there's nothing to do. He said no, he doesn't want the heroin. The OxyContin nurses were offering, he said no. I've got a question about that in terms of pain. Yeah. What's your approach to physical pain? Well, I don't really know that much about it. I had the experience with pain a couple of times when I had the accident, once, both on the motorbikes. And after the second, after the first accident, actually, I went to the Vipassana course. That was my second Vipassana course.
I was in the course and I could feel the healing of the body which was an extreme pain that was just like half of my hand was totally smashed, skin, bones. And having no resistance to that pain, perceiving the whole pain as the healing process, as the body screaming, don't touch me, be careful, protect it. And that was a healing. In that healing, I could feel tingling, pinching, burning, all sorts of different way it vibrates. And without the resistance, it was fascinating. And the same thing happened, I had another motorbike accident, I wasn't a passenger this time. A couple of years, two, three years ago, and a different part of the body was in a similar situation.
And the pain had probably the same meaning. So I can't tell you much about pain like that feels completely like a blunt sort of migraine pain or headache pain or hangover pain. I've been spared a lot of those pains. But usually also I heard how Bob explains it. Physical pain is usually a signal that something is wrong with the body, something needs attending to. There are nerve pains as well and I know people who are living with debilitating nerve pains or fibromyalgia, which is a horrible condition, chronic condition, which doesn't seem to be communicable. Czernia Szymańska, Młodzień Wielkiej Brytanii, Wrocław Wielki, The City of the City of the City.
I am so happy to be here with you in this event, for all of you who have been in the past in the past, and I am so happy that you are here. And I am hoping that you will have the opportunity to take a moment to take a few minutes to think about the pieces of the brain that are not visible, and I am hoping that you will have the opportunity to take a moment to think about the pieces of the brain that The I am a bit of a person who is not very good at it, like with the broken bones, sometimes it may be infection or the nerve pain and it may be much more difficult and it is definitely extremely challenging.
I lost my best friend to suicide because of the toothache. And how horrible and how heartbreaking was that. Nobody could help it. It took less than a couple of months of insomnia and pain, and of course the story came up that she's falling apart, the bones are getting... So there is one thing is the pain, another thing is resistance to pain or story about pain. I also remember one amazing story that Bob was saying once illustrating the seeming power of thought when he remembered from his childhood being called by the teacher and that was the time when the teachers didn't really have that sort of restrictions like today and teacher took the big liner and got his hand out and started beating him with the liner.
Bob was a cocky kid. He said, whatever, I can put up with a little bit of discomfort, not a problem. So he could beat him up and then the thought came, oh, what if he doesn't stop? And that thought made everyone just go completely out of their mind. Bob got blue and green on the The first time I met them, I was shocked. They were so quiet, I didn't know what was going on. One thought created a completely different situation. I've seen and heard people, apart from the girl who committed suicide, I had another girl who was suicidal for most of her life. I am not sure if I can translate this into English.
The idea in her case was that it's not going to get better, it is going to get worse. And that thought about future getting worse, it was the exit thought. I don't want to be here anymore. It's going to get worse. And guess what? On some magical thinking level, we sometimes get into that conversations with ourselves that, I am not a person who can say that I will make the situation worse, or get ready for the worst case scenario, I will not get disappointed. It will only get better and I will feel better. That is the narrative that is negotiating with reality and having persistent illusion that now there is something I can do, there is something I am doing, I am in charge.
So pain is one part of the story, but it is completely different part of the story, the narrative that goes around it. It shouldn't be there. Right. I was actually, I understand the narrative and how that really causes the suffering. You know, if you had to go through that whole motorbike accident again, and somebody came and gave you the option to have heroin to numb the pain, would you take it or would you say, no, I'm going to be the witness and I want to observe the sensations of the body? I don't know. It depends on the pain. One moment I would say yes, another moment I would say no.
In fact, they did, they put me in a hospital and they did give me oxytocin for a couple of days. I didn't say no to that. No, it's just whatever comes up in the moment, there is no right or wrong. Not only there is no right or wrong there is no doing as well because the next thing we going to say oh it wrong to take heroin and every junkie is a bad person it a wrong person They not doing it They are just the body mechanism with that set of patterns and strategies to deal with the environment They don't know any better. This is the same life dealing with the environment through their bodies.
My friend who committed suicide, she didn't do it. It was the whole universe that created the environment in which the body knew the only response and that was to go and jump to a cold ice-cold Baltic Sea in the middle of winter. So that is how we really not doing anything. Things are happening, they are unfolding moment to moment. I have no idea what I will do next accident or next moment. I have no idea what I'm going to think next moment or what I'm going to say. And being free from judgment around it, being open to all the possibilities is kind of make the whole experience of being alive and having that human sort of a dream, make it much more exciting.
I am a person who is free and much more freeing because then I don't have to avoid anything or obey anything. It's just really moving with the flow. So I assume that they did give Bob the OxyContin several times. Now he didn't need it. How wonderful. And I remember the knee surgery he had seven months ago. On average, people sit on OxyContin for at least a couple of weeks. He didn't need it after a week. Just, yeah, he could put up with pain. It was fine enough. It wasn't really that difficult. But before he goes to the gym, they ask him if he wants the painkiller.
He may say no, but they say, no, no, you better take it. Because that's the way of it. And he's not the doer anyway. No, absolutely not. No, whatever the body does is what the body does. Yeah. Yeah, it's actually quite incredible to see the world from that perspective, from that understanding, then whatever is happening, nobody is doing it. And at the At the same time, the whole universe is doing it. Because for everything to happen, for him to have the knee surgery, it wasn't just the pain that was the cause. The cause was that he was running till the age of 85 to the gym every morning and running hard.
And also, why was he running hard? I am not sure if it is because of certain lifestyle or because of the wage that he was accumulating eating junk and wanting to. The whole thing, the whole universe, the sunshine, the food, the parents, the upbringing, the habits, the values, all of it plays out. And it results at the end at the situation when he finds himself locked up in a rehab and saying no to exacontin and he's not doing any of it. We were so moved by the impact of this on us. It's also none of your doing. It's just how the universe plays out. And it's also amazing to see how it takes you where it takes you.
And even looking back at the story, it's nothing wrong with loving the story if you kind of not take it to be reality. The story like, you know, Bob is looking at his past of being chronic alcoholic with anxiety I am not a new Rosy. And it took him where it took him. Who knows? Perhaps living the life of just an average John Smith who never abused anything, was just kind of at ease. The normal average misery would be enough and the questioning would never happen. And who knows? That's how life played out. It took him where it took him. And looking back in the story, because the story, of course, all the time is story.
Time appears right now at this moment. There is no yesterday unless you think about it. And when you think about it, you think about it now and it comes into the picture. It gets imagined. The whole past is imagined in this way. And even looking at the whole imagined past, you just see the same brilliance, The same pattern of completely spontaneous unfolding with no doership whatsoever. And that's just so... That brings the natural relaxation. Okay, so nothing's in my hands anyway. I can just relax and move with the flow. Whatever life will take me, I can't take the wrong decision. I can't get it wrong.
It will always be you know like we tend to analyze oh I should have studied something else or I should have met the other girl or the other guy then my life would be different I am not a person who is not aware of the existence of the present moment I am not a person who is not aware of the existence of the present moment. I wish I didn't do that. That's just another way of engaging with the thought. And if it is strongly charged and there is emotion there, and who doesn't know that feeling? Oh my God, I wish I had that thought. Julia often brings it as an example.
I wish I had the thought to start Facebook in 2002. I would be a billionaire. Yes, a good illustration of the futility of engaging in that narrative and wasting time being engaged in the fiction, in the imagination, rather than living fully in this moment and being open to the miraculousness of it, to the joyousness of it. To actually notice how much all that we perceive and understand of the world is imagined. That you can still look at the imagined world, imagined countries, imagined people, imagined relationships, imagined behaviors and meanings. Go with the flow and be amazed. Because it doesn't mean that I will stop imagining to go to work tomorrow and not show up for someone that needs me.
It will still happen. I can't start, I can't stop because I'm not the doer. I'm not doing, imagining the world. But the recognition comes from beyond the imagination. Imagination appears on it, so it can be seen as an object. Just the same way consciousness cannot be seen as an object because it is the seeing principle, the understanding principle. The objects can totally be understood and recognised for what they are, passing phenomena. Imagination, let's imagine what we're going to have for breakfast tomorrow. There we go, we are in the imagination. And while we doing that, this moment get obscured by that image. This is how the whole world comes into existence because we imagine that there is a self there.
And that self has power. That self is responsible. It has to take decisions, make choices. That's imagined. But because we imagine it almost constantly for all of our life, it's hard to actually see that this is not real. Tell the fish that water is not real. Water is all it knows. It doesn't know. It can't actually, if it continues, it gets selected out and taken for granted. So the moments of looking, is there anyone there? And with that questioning, finding a curiosity to see. I am, I feel, I know, I know that. You know that you are, but why call it me? Because I am here and not there.
How do you know that you are here and not there? That's already a defining, that's already a definition, that's a description. I am the body. But you are not the body, you are beyond the body. The consciousness is not the body. The consciousness may shape and form and pattern into the express as a body. But it is more than that. This is just one of the expressions. Like I'm not my voice. Voice is one of the ways it expresses, but not the only way and it's not exclusive. So really just returning back to what is overlooked because of that veil of imagination, of self-definition. Yeah, he's still there.
Go on, Ernie. They say that pain is for the body and suffering is of the mind. Ever since I was a kid, I was having anxiety. Is that the same as panic attack? Yes. I think it was five years ago, there was this big panic attack. But always, every time I have this panic attack, I don't know, you know the saying, the calm after the storm? Yeah. When I had this panic attack after two minutes or one minute or 30 seconds, after that, it I don know it was pure calmness This is just calm I don know There nothing extraordinary about it but it always like oh I am here Like I didn't go crazy or I didn't, I don't know.
It's just like calm and very, very aware of everything. See, this is beautiful. Yeah. I don't know, but I don't want to have that panic attack, to have that kind of calmness, you know what I mean? But maybe that's the reason why I came into this spirituality thing, because of this anxiety and panic attack. Wonderful. Say thank you to your panic attacks. Yeah. Like Bob can say thank you to his drinking. It really culminated that I went to the hospital and then just the heartbeat was just too strong and the doctor trying to examine me, there's nothing wrong. It's just a panic, just go home.
It was just like that. I was just about to die or something. Yeah. It's more like a, not physical, but more really like a psychological suffering. But after that, it was, I don't know, it was just this calmness. I guess the physical, I think in a way we can sort of, it's okay, like we have the toothache and everything. Even now, you forget anymore, you can't remember. I mean, the people who are, you know, these people like Rumi, who tried to, you know, I think decapitate all the body, but was just showing that when they cut off his hands and then... So, this, the guy thinks that he's not afraid.
He put more of his blood into his face so he doesn't look pale. And still, you know, this... But yeah, the pain, the physical pain. But the suffering, I can relate to it, like, you know, in your friend's suicidal. In, you know, because... Yeah, the body, or this body experiences. I haven't had any after the last big one. Yeah, that's amazing. What you can actually, because I know it's really, really hard. My sister is having this condition and one of really dear friends of mine, she used to have it. We made the pact, the agreement that every time the panic attack is about to start, she'll call me and we will do it together.
And after doing it together for several times, she doesn't have them anymore. It is also a movement of energy that is calling for attention, but non-judgmental attention and attention without resistance. But I know that there are also conditions, and I don't know how is your condition, that are sort of, you know, like seizures. A brain condition. They are not caused by an assault. They are not caused by any trauma. It's just some sort of a wiring in the brain that comes this way, that suddenly there is a release of that neurotransmitter. And all you can do is just be present with that because you didn't cause it.
So if there was, you know, you can make yourself, I imagine, like coach yourself into a fear or panic attack. You can start imagining whatever monsters or and you can cause yourself somehow. Of course, it's not you doing it. It's again life inspiring, that sort of a practice. But what you are actually sharing, and this is amazing, you say the panic attack started and after two, three minutes there is a calm. That means that instead of regurgitating it and being upset about being upset or being fearful of panic attack, you actually just, it passed through you. And it stopped and it ended up in silence.
And this is what I learned with that girlfriend of mine who had those panic attacks. As we were following the energy, the contraction would start and the contraction would close the chest. Suddenly she could hardly breathe, like she couldn't even breathe properly. And I would say, okay, fine, look, you know, as much as bread you're taking is enough. That's it. Yeah, I can't breathe. I was in the bus. Yeah, I'm gassing. Yeah, and the way of it is like if you tell yourself a story, oh my God, oh my God, I'm gonna die right now, that is gonna make it worse. But if you see, okay, you know, it's not a problem, even if you have this little breath for the next few minutes, you're gonna be just fine.
Or, you know, you're gonna faint and then the body will restore itself to a normal breathing. It's like there is no need to add conceptual fear to whatever the body is already dealing with and processing. And the way I was actually being
I was talking over the phone with that friend of mine for several times, I don't know, 8-10 times. It was really just asking her to, okay, tell me what else is going on, okay, the breathing, I hear it, I get it, you know, what is happening in the throat, oh yes, oh yes, the throat as well, oh my gosh, it's like a lump here.
I say, okay, how is it like someone is grabbing your throat? Yes, yes, that's exactly what it is. Okay, good. Watch it, see how hard, see the tension, feel it. And the breathing, don't forget watching the breathing. Oh, I forgot, the breathing is okay now. And just paying attention to the sensations, rather than paying attention to the triggering story. Because for her it often would be a story like, oh, I'm not doing what I should. I'm not being a right, I'm not being a good girl. And that would escalate to the point in which, oh, I don't even deserve to be alive. Oh my God.
Oh my God. And it would just go to that condition, which is basically just, yeah, heart goes racing completely disproportionately. On a physical level, the body almost puts itself in a trauma, in a state of danger and trauma. But getting out of the head of the story that sustains that trauma into the physical sensations, into the breathing, into the chest, into the contraction, in the shoulders, see what happens with the jaws, see what happens within the solar plexus. Pay attention to the energy that is contracted. That's where the light of consciousness is needed. Those knots of darkness, you see them in light, just plain non-judgmental noticing.
They usually dissolve much quicker. Very often, those stories need refuelling. The next slide please. I want to eat the cherries. I want to kiss my dog. I don't want to die. There's so much to lose. And as she was telling me that, I say, oh my God, this is so beautiful. I wish I could say I love life that much. To have all the beautiful aspects bringing up like, oh, I love you. I love my horses, my cherry trees, my walnut flowers. Beautiful. And she says, oh, I didn't think about it this way. By the way, I didn't actually hear about the panic attacks anymore from her either for a couple of years.
But it was really interesting to see the role, the role sensation plays, the bodily, the chemistry, you know, that things can be triggered like seizures in people or people get re-traumatized because of certain situations, like whatever, they may not even remember the trauma Sveta Bajarani- I am totally free from whatever the body is doing. Body is eating, puking, sleeping, whatever the body is doing. I can see it very, very closely, but that's not me. I'm seeing the body, I'm seeing the personality, I'm seeing the flesh or the thoughts. But I'm the knowing principle. And knowing that this body responds this way or this body may be triggered that way, It doesn't have any judgement, I wouldn't have it any other way, it's nothing wrong.
I may find myself going to some sort of a hypnosis as well and that wouldn't be anything wrong either. Whether there is a movement of life to do something about it or there is a movement of life to leave it as it is, neither is superior or inferior, it's just how life unfolds. Whether I'm moved to eat that chocolate cake or I'm not, neither is right or wrong. It's just how the life unfolds. But I did really like, Ernie, what you said, that you actually notice that after the panic attack, there is a silence. Well, and I tell you, if I was to look from the bodily perspective, would I like to have another motorbike accident and go to hospital and have that OxyContin?
Nah. Would you like to have panic attack? No. But are you obsessing about it all the time? Are you thinking yourself to, oh my God, oh my God, I'll get up in the morning, what if I'm going to get a panic attack? Or what if I'm going to get five panic attacks today? Or what if I can go to work What if I can go to elevator I hope you don Because that is actually a suffering When the panic attack happens it has the physical component it is what it is But the suffering, the real suffering comes from the narration, from resistance. And again, from telling yourself a story that is going to get worse.
What is the future of the world? Passing phenomena, maybe passing experience, maybe part of that adventure called life, part of that dream. But does it have to call for suffering? Or is it just a moment to moment finding out how the body is responding to whatever is unfolding? You may get attacked, raped, I hope not. Of course, I don't wish anyone. Statistically, if you look at the lifetime of animal or tree or human, the seasons are coming. There will be lows and highs. There will be good moods and the bad moods, the good weather and the bad weather, the cold and hot and all of it.
And being free with whatever comes and goes and being curious of how is that body going to deal with that Without projecting and engaging with imagination that, oh, it is going to get worse. Or, oh, now it is bad, so I'm troubled, so I don't get it. Or I have to intensify the seeking because my life is not that great. Often people have concepts, oh, when you are enlightened, you will never fall sick. Or you will never get angry with your neighbour. Or you will never get someone rob your house or humiliate you in the crowd. Enlightenment is not a thing that will change anything in future because there is no one to get enlightened.
It is the finding the absence of the personal self that brings sense of the relief and sense I don't have to get anything right anymore. I don't have to get anything at all anywhere anymore because there is no self that would be getting it. I don't need to take seriously any whims of the body. I don't have to have goals or desires that are being followed. If they shown up, I don't have to have the story about it. I can find myself moving to the supermarket to do the grocery shopping or I may find myself in the store about how I desire this type of food and I crave that type of food and this is me who wants to medicate my emotional illness with the overeating or whatever is there.
Both cases are just the body moving to the supermarket. Once it happens without the commentary, another one happens with the incredible suffering. So that overlay of the suffering, of taking credit, this is me, I need that, I crave that, I must get that, this has been done to me, they don't respect me or they don't treat me properly, this is happening. That narrative is basically unnecessary. And this is where the freedom comes from, from actually just being present, just being, not even present, just being, just being. And whatever shows up on that being is what shows up. It's being plus the stuff that's happening. And that stuff that's happening is part of the being Everything that is happening has a being, temporary being, it flashes out of nothingness and comes back to the nothingness.
Just like the new car comes in and comes out, new body comes in and comes out, new thought comes in and comes out. All of it is just passing clouds, passing phenomena showing up in the dream. If you see them in this way, why would you ever want or crave anything? And why would you ever resist anything? They're just here temporarily showing up, showing another face of God. Everything that comes up is another expression of the Absolute. Even if it's ugly or even if it smells bad, it's still the same expression of the Absolute. And you see it for what it is and you're free with it.
It doesn't mean you're going to go and smell that poo or something. No, you will see what the body does. You don need to do anything There is nothing ever needing to be done because there is no one to do it anyway So it makes it really simple. It makes life really simple. If the mind is engaging in the narrative or in explaining or in justifying or in just imagining stuff, that also is known. Okay, imagining is happening. Okay, storytelling is happening. Cool. Who cares? Yeah, focus dropped away. See if we can get him back. Please come in. Yeah, join in. You told me about the last time with satsang about death, like just to remind you about death.
Thank you. So I understand that there's no one here. Like if we identify with the mind, we become the mind. If we identify with the body, we become the body. And the fact is we are not the body. This embodied existence is not really us. What our true nature is, you know. Most of the time I identify with my body, my mortality, when you approach or there is this certain fear of death. Yes. Yeah, see this is... Do you want me to call the hospital to get Bob back? No, I'm actually getting him back, it's just the internet. But thank you, Julia. Yes, see this is the same, Ernie, what you're saying, what my sister was saying when she had the panic attack.
About the walnut flowering and the cherry trees and her horses, you know, she loved life so much that losing... Oh, there he is. Yep. Welcome back, sweetheart. I don't know, somehow the call dropped off, but we have you back. Can you see everyone? Hi, hi, hi. All good? Yes. All good, yes. What time is it, then? What time is it? It is 8.30. Around half past eight. Half past eight? Yeah. So you got another half an hour. Would you like to drop something in? Yes, please. That was a beautiful talk. We're still on, darling. We're still on for half an hour. And Ernie just requested that we talk a little bit more on death and dying.
He experiences a fear of death, which is obviously a love for life. Identifying a physical body is really bothersome to actually imagine or anticipate that this body is going to die. Body, by its nature, as every other form in nature, is equipped with the survival instinct. Apparently, even the plants, when you put the Kirlian photography, high-frequency photography, they actually resist being cut. The leaves, the lettuce, you know, vegetarians think they are superior because they don't kill. They do. Life lives on life. Nothing wants to die. You want to kill the mosquito and mosquito will want to escape. And we can say, oh, poor mosquito is so identified with the body and is so inferior.
So you're not different, you are just, you know, it's just that you take the survival instinct of the body as yours. You could witness the body trying to look after itself and witness the body wanting to live and wanting to be comfortable and wanting to be healthy and wanting to be happy. You could witness the body not wanting to die just the same way you witness the, you know, you can go to the place where they kill animals for food and see how they don't want to die. There's no identification required for the body to have active survival system that will prevent it from being harmed or died.
So this is very healthy. The fact that you don't want to jump off the building or the fact that if someone will tell you that you have six months to live, that would be sad. Or the fact that you are perhaps feeling pain because nobody's really, if you look closely, nobody's really feeling death. This pain associated with dying that is being feared. You know, someone who is dying of cancer, oh, I'm going to be experiencing incredible suffering, incredible torture of pain of the dying organs. But death is like a deep sleep. Who is afraid to go to sleep? So it really is, but it is also an amazing phenomena known in psychology as the immortality dream.
I am not sure if I am saying this correctly but I am saying that because we can imagine non obviously we won be there So what is there to imagine This is something that the mind as the faculty dreads Everything that is beyond the imagination that can't be known is being dreaded. So basically the mind tells itself that no, it's not going to get annihilated. It's going to be locked in a dark square box forever and ever For the eternity we'll be trapped in a dark box. That's what the mind imagined the death to be, or perhaps hell, or perhaps some sort of a confusion, eternal confusion.
But that is all imagination. The instinct to protect the body belongs to the body. It is not you. You can observe it just the same way you can observe the body I am a person who is not aware of the fact that the body is sweating when it is hot, or when the skin is shedding, or when you cut your hair off. You observe the body, and you observe the body sweating when it is hot, or digesting. That is one of the functions. The body has a function to renew the cells, get rid of the old ones, the dead ones. And you cannot even imagine how many cells in the body has died since we started that call.
That dying of the body and renewing itself is totally necessary part of functioning. The cells that don't want to die are called cancer. That are cells that are not making space for another cells, but are just procreating indefinitely and Transcending everything else to its own uncontrollable growth. So the death is a good thing. The death of the of the planets, of the animals, of the insects, of people. Imagine if nobody died for the last 300 years. How many people we have today is impossible. So as much as the death is part of life, it's not even really death. The body is not dead, it is all life.
The electricity as the life essence animating it is not integrating it and renewing it anymore. Now it is disintegrating it. Now it is creating the enzymes and maggots and other bacterias and it's disintegrating it. But it's always life moving, going, you know, those enzymes and those cells and maggots and bacterias, they all life. It's just that the form has changed, just like the form of the energy is changing. You can change the waterfall into the electricity that will then become light. The power of falling water or the power of windmills or whatever it is, is the energy changing. So death as such is just the change in the energy.
But fearing death, imagining that I can die, I am the body and one day I will die. See what is really, what you really afraid of. Are you afraid of like this deep sleep when there is no memory, there is no worries, there is no problems, there is just a deep sleep? Or you are afraid of suffering that may be the cause of death, you know, like dying of being weak and not being able to grasp another breath and maybe suffocating and maybe drowning or maybe dying with, you know, that sort of the dying, not the death, the dying. Any imagination can cause that fear.
You may imagine that you are running out of breath and that's scary. Or you may imagine that you are being burned alive. Or you may imagine that your heart is aching, you got the stroke. Any imagination can cause that. If you really want to fear, you may also imagine that you lose all the money and you'll end up on the bridge. ... You can go viral with imagination. But the question is, can you see that all of that fear is only happening when you think about it, when you're imagining it? You are not dying right now. Right now you're fine. When you're not into it, life is functioning naturally.
The chap who was talking about the, what's the names he was having, and the calm that goes with it. Yes. Well, calm is just a natural function also. Every cyclone, when they get to the centre, there's calm. Mmm. So we don't have to search for them, but they're always vibrating in the peers' rooms. Can you repeat what you said? I couldn't hear him. Darling, you get to say it again loudly. I don't know how to make it even louder. Can you repeat what he said? I said, there's no separation at all. There wouldn't be a manifestation if it didn't appear to be separation. The man that was talking about the things he was having, and then since the calm was there, well, have a look at that in March.
Every cyclone when it comes to the centre of it, there's a calm. It starts something. Yeah. You don't have to seek the calm and look for it. There's naturally there, you just give it a shot. Yeah, that's a good point. Even in the fear, it's like a cyclone. There is an eye of the cyclone that is immovable. Go to the center of it and there is calm, there is quiet. Beautiful stuff. Very well. Thank you darling, I'm glad you're enjoying it. So, Ernie, have a look how you can even go, you can examine that fear of dying in a way by just going into the fear.
I think I've seen now, because as you said, it's more really, if you think about it, then you're fearful. But in this body, because as a witness of relatives who pass away, the corpse, people were growing up watching movies and all the maggots and bacteria, and she's like, Oh, my God, this is me, I'm going to be filled with maggots. You identify with the body. Again, you're thinking, you're using your brain to think. And then you watch the horror movies and stuff like that. These are just old things. So I know, yeah, but when thinking strikes, that's when the fear is there. But there's no thinking, there's really no fear.
There you go, yeah. It is the most important part of the whole sort of, you call it a journey, of the realization to actually be able to see what is real and what is imagined. And when you see that everything that comes in the form of conceptual thought or thinking is imagined, even the description you give to something, it is already constructing the imagined part. Things are as they are, and now on top of it we give it a context. And we say, oh, in general, fire always burns or this and that. And that's already includes that interpretation of the conceptual mind includes that constructed imagined world.
And it's not that we can stop it or that we should stop it. No, again, no. This is how life unfolds. This is a brilliant, brilliant capacity that the mind has to construct the realities, to imagine the realities. But when you take them to be real, that hurts. It doesn't have to be taken to be real. Yes, don't follow the imagining. Nothing can drop you except in your own imagination. From that aspect, say why am I that? Why should I be? Why should anyone? Imaging in. I am not going to be humiliated or overpowered. That imagination is the very quick effective way to suffering. But if you don't want to suffer, you can actually see through it.
It is very easy to actually see what's real in the moment. You are. Now the first generation dream that there is a body with the holes in the body, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, that's what's happening in the dream. The being is pure non-conceptual existence, the presence. And now on top of that being, there is a body being dreamt and there is a world interacting with the body through interpreting the sensory impulses. So that's the dream, but you can be awake to that dream. And on top, you may be dreaming in the dreaming, like daydreaming in the dream That already a dream Now I gonna daydream about tomorrow I guess the world is not really helping us Like imagine like you watching the you know 60 minutes or whatever like oh imagine there's four families in the car being hit in the broadway.
You imagine that and there's two kids you know they're now crippled and then you always like imagine it's It's there all the time and subconsciously it's in your brain. Like, oh, have you watched The Current Affair 60 Minutes? Like, it was just this, you know, moment it's like being in prison for eight years in this house. And then he was always like, imagine, you know, imagine all. And it's there all the time. You should like, like... Yes, darling? You were saying something Bob? I said yes, exactly, it's always there all the time. There is no time. Timeless being. Anyone not being right now. Anyone not being right now, exactly.
Imagining happens on top of that timeless being. And you're totally right Ernie, yes, the whole world is designed to keep the dream within the dream within the dream, and the whole societies are organized by collective imagining, the collective dreaming. And there's nothing wrong with that, it's quite beautiful, it's quite amazing. I am a person who is not afraid of anything when you actually see through it. You don't want to stop it. It's beautiful. It's amazing. Don't you love your stories? Don't you love your imaginations? But if you take them to be real, they're terrifying. But if you know they are not, if you know their mental images, and even you know the current affairs, you see people being in the situation that breaks your heart open.
Don't you love to be a compassionate being, having a heart for others' misery? There is something beautiful and sweet about being capable of imagining somebody else's misfortune and feel for them. But when you take it to be real, you get sick. Yes, darling? And the other thing too, Matra. That's what it is, Matra. Be there, nothing to do with us, to be gathered or collected. It's time, true nature. As in nature, life. Yes. And simple holiness. Translation and Subtitles by the Amara.org community Thank you for joining us today. I don't know what to add. You covered it beautifully, Kat. I think I resonated a little bit.
I was thinking about what you had said about, I don't know, listening to Steph because I like to explain it. Yeah, guilty as charged. You know, but I don't know. You know the door. Yeah. I never did that. I never did that. It's just a pattern. When you recognize the pattern, it becomes impersonal and it loses its thing, it loses its power. Or it doesn't, who knows. Either way, you know, like musicians keep singing. It is a beautiful, beautiful song and I do love this song and I love hearing it and I love singing it. I love it all, really. But I think the thing is, as I was trying to say to you earlier, you know, I've always been an admirer of universal truths, or what I consider to be a universal truth.
I think what's cool about this message is it's irrefutable. Really, it's like you can't deny that you are. You can't deny certain, it's not based on belief, that's the beauty of it. I love that. I think that's so cool. And so my whole life I've been listening to BS belief systems, you know? And to hear people speak about shit that's not belie- well, talk about this, it's all shit really when you say it, but still. Just to hear about people talking about this and it not based in a belief I like wow you know that is what I love it You know I really love it I love you both So thank you And so there you know yeah I can help it I love you too It's nice to actually engage in the pointing and in looking at it and thinking of it, but it's even nicer to actually while talking and thinking about it, to just be completely in touch with that undeniable ability of being.
And letting it naturally express what it wants through you. Thank you darling. Yeah, it does do that. And I've also noticed, you know, like really just when I'm just being and I'm not trying to do though, there's more and more of an appreciation of just the being. Yeah, more and more of a, you know, because the longer I'm able to, well, not that I'm able to, I'm doing it a bit, But the longer this, this, the attention is able to sit in and just being without thinking, planning, explaining in my head, explaining to somebody else, trying to anything, anything, just being. It's got a beautiful, I don't know, joyousness about it.
It's really lovely. And so there's, there's a lot, I'm drawn to it much more. Not always, you know, but I still know what's nice is it's always available. So I'm just grateful. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it is hard to actually even describe it because it kind of even describing it makes a being an object of focus or something. And it really isn't because it is prior to even moving attention. It's even, you know, like, take the attention away from the world and rest it. It's really about non-doing. And yeah, the pointing is kind of making it sound like there is something substantial to be found, to be heard, to be putting attention or giving attention to.
It's really relaxing the attention out of the distractions. If the distraction is my story, what they're doing to me or narration, and that distraction obscures that naturalness, that joyousness, the loving-to-be, that distraction is to be recognized and relaxed from. The relaxation cannot be done, it is the recognition that causes it. Because certain things can only happen in complete darkness. The moment you actually see that habit pattern, it doesn't have enough darkness to continue. distraction, engagement with the story about me, me and the world, me versus the world, me opposing the world, me conquering the world, or particular parts of the world, my country, My family, my friends or spouses.
This type of storytelling, whatever there is out there, there has to be, when there is an object out there, there is a subject relating to it. And just noticing how out of that amazing world of the presence, when there is no time, when there is just the immediacy of hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling, out of it emerges the story of some other moment in some other time. And it is fully furnished with the people that are there, sometimes conversations we have in the head with those people. Noticing is that reality of being here now, present and awake, and the daydream of other moment, other time, other place.
How fascinating, how incredibly amazing. Sometimes these imagined worlds overlay that present reality, that present dream, because the reality is without even any experience of the world, it's just plain being, without interpreting anything as the walls, the buildings, the bodies, the trees. It can't be conceptualized, but it doesn't even have to be realized in this way. Dream is not your problem. The problem is resistance to the dream and the overlay of the daydreams of imagination on top of that primary dream. And the resistance in that overlays of that other places other things other times happening in the mind in the narrative on top of that present moment It is something absolutely wonderful and fascinating to observe because you're not doing it, you're not guilty of it, you can't stop it, it's nothing wrong with you.
It's not that the mind, the ego, the me, I have to get rid of it. No. See it as absolutely fascinating miracle and love it to bits. Because the moment the seeing happens, that attention that have been constructing that dream is now withdrawn and is being the observation, the space like non-conceptual awareness. So that dream is not gonna last, it kind of loses its solidity. The moment attention is withdrawn from that imagination of tomorrow's breakfast, it kind of becomes transparent, it becomes not real, suddenly it just disappears. And you didn't even want to stop it. No, no, no, stay on, don't worry, don't have to come down, it's all fine, it's all good, it's nothing wrong.
Is the dream of tomorrow there or a dream of somebody else there? Wonderful, let it be there. Resist nothing. Dreaming is happening? Wonderful. Dreaming is not happening? Wonderful. Resist nothing. You are the space. Space doesn't mind the dreaming. Be who you are. Ask who you are, the dreams happen, the dream doesn't happen, it's perfect either way. When the noticing happens, the dream doesn't have that much fuel anymore. Hi, Primali, I can see you now. I was listening to you, that was beautiful. That was so good. I was trying to ask questions, but every time I thought of a question, you answered it. Oh, that's wonderful.
And it's amazing, like what you are saying, it's really like, it's true. Yeah, it's so simple, isn't it? Yeah, it's so obvious when you when you look at it, of course, of course, what's there to object to? Yeah, that's, that's what's happening. And just noticing, just seeing it. I can see you too. Yeah. And you want to say something darling? We are kind of running out of time. So did you want to say something? I like listening. You like listening. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Wonderful to have you with us darling. Thank you for not falling asleep on me too. Very hot, very catchy, very home, very true.
Aww, you're so sweet. Thanks a lot, Slajko. You gave me a symbol. Yeah, it really is that symbol that we miss it. That's your world. It's that simple that we miss it and it's that obvious that we ignore it. That's the ignorance, ignoring the obviousness. And that's only because we totally innocently use the tool of the mind. And the mind is not the right tool. It can't be seen with the mind. It can't be grasped with the mind. So any trying to get it, understanding and explaining it with the mind, It's futile. Words can only be used to point, but it can't appropriately describe it.
Because it is that which causes the words to happen. It is that that causes the seeing to happen. And that's, yeah, how can that be seen? It is that thanks to which the seeing is present. I think that computer says that my internet connection is unstable and I already had the trouble of internet today so if it even cuts off I just thank you everyone for being here and... Thank you so much Kat. Thank you Kat, that was enlightening. Thank you. Thanks very much. Thank you, Karen and Bob. Thanks, Karen and Bob. Hopefully, I really hope that next Tuesday Bob will be here, but I'll keep that updates on the Facebook group.
So please show up, welcome him if he is there on Tuesday. We'll really aim for that. Thank you.