Sailor Bob, Sailor Kat, nonduality meeting, 28 Feb 2021

Yep, good morning everyone. Nice day today with a look of it. Fresh and new. I hope everybody's well. We've all got some good input and good questions to know, which you usually do on a Sunday morning, which is very good. It's the same old, same old we talk about. Somebody said, I don't know, it might have been Ram Dass, or somebody said, getting rid of what you haven't got. And that's about the gist of it. There's nothing we can get and there is nothing that you are not already. We've taken on the belief we are this separate entity, this person, this individual, and that is the cause of all our problems relating to that believed in entity.

And relationship is duality. Relative too. And there is absolutely no duality whatsoever in non-duality. Yet look around you and all that is happening in the seeing is seemingly dual. Seemingly me and other than me. But it's all the one essence that vibrates, patterns show, and it's all about the essence. This all is the essence now, No doubt. And I just want to reflect on fattened shapes and forms, and to everything, and this is a key word. That allfronten shapes and forms are things. Paring on or in that no-thing. The silence, the stillness. The space-like awareness or emptiness, which they label as a cognizing emptiness. Emptiness with the capacity to be.

of cognizing or knowing. And emptiness is form is what they tell us. All these forms, patterns, shapes and forms which is the manifestation are nothing but the emptiness. So the form is emptiness and the emptiness is the form. Now see we must realize or recognize how we've got lost along the way somewhere and believing we are this separate entity, this individual, this person, me or I. And we see all these other things as not me or not I. And that's true. But the ones we think are I, the pattern shape form we think is I or me, that's not I either. It's a pattern shape and form.

It has the capacity of reasoning, thinking which I. Call, for want of a better term, intelligence, energy. Not your intellects. But the same intelligence that's rolling the earth around the sun, that's forming the planets and the stars and the oceans and the continents and everything, everything again, which appears as this manifestation. Subtitles by the Amara.org community It's all things appearing on that basic screen, the no-thing. Well, just reasoning it out, looking, can some thing come from no-thing? Well, even the so-called I here can recognize that. How can anything come from no-thing? It can't. But it appears to be so. And they tell us that the manifestation is a phenomenal manifestation.

Definition of phenomenal is that which appears to be. It all appears out there. And the thoughts that are seemingly going on in the body, in the head, all appears to be so, seemingly so. A little bit of investigation, you'll see it's not how it appears. It's not how it is. What it is, it is that all. Subtitles by the Amara.org community It's already, just pure isness. Isness is right here in us, right now in us. Not past or future, high or low, pleasant or painful, just as it is right here in this moment. Absolute, total, complete. And that's what we're searching for. The belief is we've got to become one with it.

Subtitles by the Amara.org community Subtitles by the Amara.org community Subtitles by the Amara.org community Subtitles by the Amara.org community Subtitles by the Amara.org community Subtitles by the Amara.org community What's non-duality? It's one without a second. That is it. Who needs to become it? We've lost sight of the fact through the thinking process and the belief in the words and the belief in the patterns, shapes and forms as having some substance. But look at the ocean when the ocean's calm and still no movement in it. It's just a pure, peaceful, still ocean. A ripple comes on it or a wave or a billow or a tsunami or something, stirs it up.

All patterns shapes and forms. Now these patterns, are they anything apart or separate from the ocean? They're all these so-called patterns we say I've got this pattern and that pattern that's going on in the mind seemingly real, but if you're not concerned when I'm not thinking about them, let it rest. What happens to the patterns? What happens to the patterns on the ocean when it becomes still? They disappear. What happens to the patterns in your mind when you're not focusing on them, giving them some reality? They'll disappear. They'll dissolve. They won't dissolve for very long, fresh in your thoughts, just the same as the ocean is never still for very long either.

It'll change, it's constantly changing. But realise all the changes and the patterns, shapes and forms are the no thing appearing in the mind. They're appearing as something. And to appear as something, there needs to be something separate from them. And isn't that this persona, this body-mind we've got, which we call my body? This person, I am this person. I am separate. I am apart. I'm not the reality, I'm not the total. But I see where the peace is, where the joy is, where the so-called enlightenment is. And I need to become enlightened. And becoming, when you recognise it's already being so, why do you need to become something that you already are?

And the belief that we need to become is because we've separated it. We've simply divided ourselves. What with? What's divided us? Isn't it the word, the concept, the image? And isn't that how it appears when you look at this thing you call mind or thinking? When Shakespeare tells you there's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. And when you realise that, without a thought, what can you say about it? Is it good? Is it bad? Is it pleasant? Is it painful? Without the thought it's not. And all these thoughts good, bad, pleasant, painful, they're all words. How many words were you born with?

You weren't born with any words. What did you know when you were born? In words. The pure intelligence was there, the knowing was there, but it didn't have any words to discriminate itself with. It wasn't knowing this or knowing that. Just the same as nature hasn't got any words. It's not saying this is good or this is bad or this is the blue sea that's still or silent. It didn't. But it's all happening. But it's not discriminating because there's no separate thing apart from it that's discriminating. That's why they call it one without a second, non-duality. Not two, only the one. And it's always and ever that.

And we've learnt these words and believed in the words. We went to school, our parents told us the words and we learnt them at school. And we picked up words along the way and learnt more words. And the energy of belief has gone into the word and made it seemingly real. And that sense of separation that's come about has caused all our problems. Because it's only me that believed in separate entity. Can be fearful, can be anxious, can be unhappy, be guilty, be depressed. Why? Because of the very belief in separation. You've isolated yourself and separated yourself from the totality. As the totality, the absolute, what can you add to it?

What can you take away from it? If you know you're not separate from it and you are that, what problem is there? It's the sense of separation and the belief in separation that creates all our problems. It is the cause. Any causes that are real must have an effect. And isn't that what they call so-called karma? Is cause and effect. But if you ask yourself the simple question, can there be an effect if I'm not relating to a cause? I'm seeing everything as it is, whole, complete, total. What effects can there be? What effects does nature, the earth know, rolling around the sun? It appears to be, when it faces away from the sun, it's darkness.

When it faces towards the sun, it's light. But is the earth saying it's darkness or light? It's got no self-nature. So it can't relate to a cause. And there can't be an effect. It's just as it is. But we're locked into it. We learnt words, believed in the words, never investigated and see the words, not the real. The form, you'll learn more and acquire more words, forget a lot of other words. But never realise that the word is not the thing. It's just labels or names we put on things. The name or the label. And you know the label's not the word, not the thing.

Go into Myers or David Jones, come out with a dress or a coat or a shirt, or come out with a label, not the thing itself. You're not too happy about that, you know. You want the thing. Now this body, mind. I am this person. I am this body. But investigate that and see whether you are the body. Innately, without anything else. You know innately, immediately, that you're not the body. Because you're saying, my body. Who is it that's claiming the body? You say, my house, my car, my coat, my body. You know, that's seemingly me or my that claims the house, the car and the coat.

But is there anything there to claim the body? That's the very me you're thinking is doing the claiming. And what is this me or I? Is it anything other than a label? A word? A conceptual image? It is an image. It appears to be sitting in the space, appearing in a focusing space. And it's seemingly moving. It's breathing. It's heart's beating. Fingertails growing. The activities are taking place in it. The intelligence is patterning, shaping and forming. Causing patterns to happen. But we label it as separate. Now is that body separate? Can it live outside of space? Can it live outside of the elements? When you investigate it, it's made up of elements.

Earth, air, fire, water, space. All those elements. But we believe it's real. It seems solid and round substantially. You can grab it. You can hold it. Put it under a microscope. You'll see a big difference there. You'll see it quite differently. And it appears to be aging. And you know it's changing. It's transient. Because a few years back, you had the body of a youth, a young boy or a young girl, or a child before that. It's grown up into an adult now, possibly. And like this pattern, it's an old age. Starting to fall apart. Old age. But what's the same about it? Go back to those childhood memories.

And you'll say, this happened to me. And they'll say, how do you know? You'll say, I was there. What was there? If it's not the same body that it is now, what was it that was there? What was the image you had about yourself then? The same thoughts and ideas. Where are they now? They're not there. They've changed. Well, what was it there? It must have been that innate intelligence. The pure knowing. The pure livingness. That hasn't changed. It's seen these and known and recognised or cognised all these things that are coming and going and changing. But it's still the same basic essence. The same pure intelligence energy.

And the pattern the body-mind that is expressing through as I say, has aged, or is ageing and has aged, and will disappear. It will disappear. Where does it go to? Now all this manifestation takes place in space. In the emptiness. Can you postulate or think of anything outside of this emptiness? So what formed out of this emptiness and seemed real? When it breaks down, where must it go? Back into the emptiness. What's lost? Nothing whatsoever. The pattern, shape and form has disappeared. But the emptiness has no centre, no circumference, no beginning, no end. It's just purely what is. It's always is that. And you know that in your language.

Because they say that's the tree, that's the flower, that's the chair. You put the labels on the that-ness. I am that is the great mantra. I am that that-ness. Not the body, not the mind. But you don't, you mouth the words but you don't realise it's true. Instead of saying I am that absolute, I am this person. I am this body, this mind that's suffering, that's unhappy, that's depressed. All conceptual image were built upon those. So yes, the belief is what you've heard and gone on that you think you've got to become realised. Liberated. What's the other word for it? Liberated. Realised. Realised. Awake. Aware.

But you're already that. Already. Seemingly obscured by the concepts of thought. Recognise. So I've verbal on long enough I think. There must be some people there where you usually got the input and the comments or the questions. So away you go. Yes I have Hello everyone. I have cut, took my chair again. I should have show that beautiful dress off. So we got a beautiful feedback from Arthur. Dear Bob, after last week's satsang when I went to bed that night I had a dream about you. You were looking intently and deeply into my eyes. You were pure love. This was Shaktipat. Since then I find myself dealing with life situations with greater skill and clarity with greater skill and clarity.

We really aren't the doer. That's right. How magnificent. It is, yeah. And Shaktipat is energy. It's not some mystical thing. It's just energy that enlivens or merges with the energy that you already are. And moves through the body energising it. Rising up through the so called chakras and all the rest of it. And energising it. Enlivens it. You are that. Nobody gives it to you. You just recognise it was there all the time. And then we have from Rox. Freedom from becoming. Yes. Freedom from trying. Yes. Freedom from working it out. Hallelujah. Hallelujah sister, yeah. And the question. Is the thought talking about past and future in the past and future?

The thought is always immediate. It's always immediate. And there is no past or future. It's spontaneous. But there again. The thought in the vibration seeming vibration which is only a spontaneous throb or pulsation which has no full ending or full beginning. And that pulsation. It seems to be time. Then Matt is answering past and future as well as every other thought idea and concept. So whether the thought of past is in the past. The past is a thought. Yeah. So whether the thought is happening immediately about the past. The thought may be immediate but the thought and the past they both thought. They all thought.

Good. And Tanya. Without the word there is no separate self. Even with the words there is no separate self. It seems more like I am that which is aware. I am aware of the body so it can't be what I am. That is not super clear though. There is a doubt that I am not the body. Which is just a thought and sensation. Hoping some clarity on this will appear. It doesn't matter that thoughts about improving the body appearance appear right. Right. Improving the appearance will not add anything to one's essence. Not sure that. Not sure why there is still interest in this. How do I come to be clear like you and Kat?

Well as I say if you realize it's all appearance what's the. Does it need to be improved? What's the essence of it? What's it without the patterns without the movement on it. What is it? Pure being knowing and loving to be. But it needs something to express to. It didn't have this particular pattern or that particular pattern or any pattern to express to. What could be said? What could be done about it? And how real is the pattern as I say if you put it under a microscope. It's seemingly solid but you see it's made up of elements. Air, fire, water, space which can be broken down into subatomic particles into pure energy.

Just energy. A vibration. A throb. A pulsation. I call it spander I think in one of the or drill in some other traditions. Different words from down through the ages have been different words. Throb, pulsation, breath. And also you say that it is kind of clear but there are doubts about being the body association with the body. Yes as Bob says without the body there is no experiencing. So you do need the car if you want to drive to another city. It's not that you're going to be maybe another country. So the body is part of the appearance that you really need. It's not that you're not the body.

You stop looking after the body or anything like that. But the association that I am my body is almost as if I am my dress. I am my costume. I am my mask. I have the body. I have the costume. I need the eyes to see or I need the cameras to record. I need the brain. This is the things that we do have not that we are. Ultimately being a totality you are everything. But see what actually throws you out of the clarity is the thought. It is always how much importance you give to thought. If the thought comes about some absolute nonsense in foreign language.

Let's say the thought comes about you know whatever God being a dog in Mandarin. So how much importance will you give it to the thought. But when the thought comes and says about me. I. This is my body. This is me. This is when it is automatically assigned a lot of importance. And when you recognize that this is just a noise. It's just a vibration. And you stop believing thoughts. Any thoughts. The big thoughts. Good, positive, negative. Any thought is just a cloud. And a doubt is a thought. Don't forget that. A doubt is a thought. So when the doubt comes up. Whatever the doubt is saying.

You can just ask yourself what's wrong with right now if I don't think about it. Or who am I without the thought. Like suddenly the attention switches back to being. To being through sensory experiences. Hearing, seeing, feeling the body, breathing. All that is happening immediately. Rather than what is happening in the story. And then clarity is there. And the thought comes up again. If you ignore the thought. Let it fall. The clarity is not obscured. But when the attention goes and abandoned that immediacy. And follow the thinking. And believes the thinking. Energize the thinking. Says oh maybe that's true. Then you are in the fantasy land.

You are again in the imaginary fictitious believed in reality. Believed in reality. In the dream. In a day dream. You day dreaming. That oh maybe I'm not good enough. Or maybe I'm ugly. Or maybe I'm the body. That's a dream. A doubt is a thought. And thoughts are stories. Thoughts are time. Stories. What story is there without a thought? And who can have it? When you look at the story it has a beginning and an end. And we pointed out it's all spontaneous. Just a thrive of a pulse ocean. Without beginning. When does now begin? Right now. But as you said that it's finished already.

And it's beginning again. And it's finished again. So it's got no duration to it. And all the stories they tell you to try to describe it in. When we were kids they called them fairy stories. Had a good moral to it. Every fairy story starts with once upon a time. So you see all stories take place in time. And the story about yourself now. I was born. I'm so and so. Hasn't that taken place in time? What is wrong with right now if I'm not thinking about it? What story is there if I haven't got any concepts or ideas or images about it? If it's just pure, ever fresh, spontaneous awareness.

Knowingness. Beingness. Loving to beingness. So Tanya says here, so being clear about this is just abiding as awareness and knowing you are that? Yes. It's not even, even the, you know, like conceptualizing that I am abiding as that. If mind takes over it will start asking, what does it mean to abide? How do I do that? And that's not, I bet you know. But just to clarify for others. Abiding is non-doing. You don't do anything. Just relax. Yeah, just relaxing. So yes, abiding as that it means you already that. And can you actually do anything to stop being that? No. But you could just cloud that awareness or lose sight of it.

Like when you say lose sight of it. Basically just turn into a dream. Let it rest in its uncontrived singularity. Resting is abiding. Uncontrived singularity. A singularity without any divisions or any concepts of it. And Heyman says, you are that dear, dear Tanya. You are. Rohan, who is hoping for clarity to appear? It is subtle way that the identity keeps going. There is also a concept about clarity that Bob and Kat have that you don't. You will never be clear about anything. You will never be clear about anything. All that happens is that attention will shift from the you to the screen on which it appears.

Exactly. Beautifully said. Thank you, Rohan. Beautifully, beautifully said. And Rox, we are awareness. In my experience, I found trying to abide in awareness was a mind-trap. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And trying. Yeah, Rox said before, the freedom, liberation from trying. Let it rest. Let it rest. Don't try to relax. Yeah. You can't relax. Relaxation will happen if you're not concerned or focusing or attaching to anything. Yes. When you go to sleep, do you think about it? You don't. Just give it up every night when you go to sleep. What do you do? Where does the mind go when you're asleep? And Tanya says, yes, Heyman, I am starting to see this.

Yeah, just notice every moment when this is clear. And acknowledge those moments of clarity. When there's no thinking, it's just plain being. And ah. And it's, you know, just relaxing. Plain relaxation in being. Because the more you notice that natural state, the more you will notice that natural state. The more you look for when it is obscured, the more obscuration you'll notice. That's how that's how the attention is trained. Sally, I have been stuck. I have been struck by the is-ness this week. Good. I have been struck by the is-ness this week. Beautiful. It seems so obvious on one level. The harm of now and is-ness.

That's yes. Good, Sally. That's great. It is. And it can't be grasped by the mind. For the mind is nothing. But when the mind relaxes a little bit, it's like just too obvious. It's shocking. It's an insult for the intelligence. How close and obvious and plain it is. And every taste you have of it or recognition of it, the easier it becomes to see again. Yes. And it is being struck by it. By the obviousness of it. Beautiful. Alvaro, who's believed in thoughts? Hmm. Yeah. I'm not laughing at you or with you. I am you, Heymann said. And, Goss, an event has no cause, just as an answer has no question.

The answer always precedes the question. Questions are just mind. Hmm. The questioner is the question. Tanya, that is a great question, Rohan. Thank you. It seems the who is hoping for clarity is just a thought seemingly believed in. But believed in by who? This is who. This who is just a thought. Not real. Yes, Bob. And Kat, see, have something I don't is just a thought, story. It's like the sun and the cloud. You know. The sun doesn't have to try and force the cloud away. Just be, is just being and it'll cool it down and blow it away. Cause a wind. And when the heat, heat evaporates the water, it's not doing it on purpose or doing anything.

It's just happening. Bob and Kat have something I don't is just a thought, a story that is so profound. Yes. Because that aliveness is obviously is as much here as it is in you. It's as much in the in the cats that is now growing. Does, does that have a story? Yeah. Doesn't, and you are that? Hmm. Who was that that said that? Tanya. Tanya is that? Hmm. And now, Aldo. Hi Bob and Kat. So what use do thoughts have? What is a use for thoughts? They can be very useful. Oh yeah. But they can be very self-destructive. Hmm. Thoughts, Aldo, I haven't seen you for ages.

How you doing? Hmm. Yeah, self, thoughts can be very useful and they can be very self-destructive. Because the self tells, the thought tells you I'm not good enough. I'm fearful. After all, I'm only human. I'm this, I'm that, I'm that. Hmm. But the other thought tells you don't go there or a full stop or that's just a concept or two and two make five or something like that. They're useful thoughts. And what a wonderful source of entertainment thoughts are. If you think of the lyrics of a beautiful song or poetry or films or the way people communicate, exchange ideas, how entertaining it is to even create the models of reality in thoughts.

Thoughts are quite incredible. It's just when we blindly believe them to be reality that's when the side effect of it is suffering. Being energy, they vibrate into the opposites also. Hmm. Discriminate. They vibrate. Now Tanya says, a shift of attention that will happen by itself. Thanks for the heads up about the trap rocks. And beautiful Sally. No one believing in thoughts. Just thoughts appearing. Tanya, maybe you could actually see that shift of attention that is happening right now rather than will happen. Because the moment I see in your writing, the moment you point it, you actually land in it straight away. So shift of attention, acknowledging the aliveness, acknowledging the existence, the being.

Even if that is only part of the attention, that acknowledge that presence that is already there, that silence or that scream. And then the content is also acknowledged. That's okay. But then that acknowledgement for the content is not unconditional believing the content anymore. Because you know the content is fleeting. It comes and goes. It's changing. But what's unchanging, it can be acknowledged now. It's not that it will happen. It's happening. It's happening. And no one believing in thoughts. Just thoughts appearing. Tanya says. Yep. And Matthew, got total rapture today. Felt like I was floating. And Donna, love you and miss you both. Enjoying life and not missing a thing.

Oh, you're so gorgeous. Yeah, that's the paradox. We miss you too, even though we don't miss a thing. That's so true. Such a blessing to have you both, Alvaro says. Thank you. And Tanya, thank you Bob and Kat. Thank you. And all that replied to the question. It's definitely only thought, words that seem to veil the beingness that is never actually veiled. That's right. Thought seems much less interesting now. That's it. Yeah. Yeah, they can be totally loved and acknowledged and appreciated and taken advantage of, used for expression. It's just so many uses. Fantastic uses. Only when you take the map to be a territory.

That's when the, that's when it hurts. And that's it. We caught up with the insights and sharings. Yeah, you'll have to give a bit of a swirl. No, you're the best. No, no best. Go on, good practice. Oh, we have a question. I'm off the hook. I have something that Bob and Kat does not have. I have feelings of separation. Aww. I have thoughts that I believe in. I'm capable of resentment and anger towards people. I actually experienced mixture of anger and sadness for half a day yesterday and Bob and Kat doesn't have what I have. This is gorgeous. I love that. It still appears.

Yes. Everybody has it. It still appears, but it's in recognizing that the appearance is not the actual thing. That's, yeah, yeah. Bob News, if you feel superior because you have something special that we don't and I know it's a good joke, I like it, then we do occasionally growl also and it is quite sweet and funny. We even, a couple of times a year, oh maybe less than that, growl at each other. It doesn't last more than a few seconds, but it is kind of a nice outburst of energy. It's not that those yummy vibrations suddenly became unavailable. All of it is available. The sadness, the desperation, the disappointment, the joy, the pleasure, the pain, all of it is available.

It's just not believed. What's your idea? I have something that you don't have. The anger. Yeah, he can be quite fiery. Yeah, there's quite a few people who could assert to it. He can, yes, I can be quite fiery too. It's just the pattern. It's like if you look out in nature and you see the animals interacting with each other, you can see like, you know, this, gosh, what do you call this big male deer? How do you call that one? Stag. Yeah, they fight almost till they break each other's necks. They fight for females. The animals are competing for position. They feel furious. The energy, of course, we anthropomorphize it that this is anger because we don't really know how internally they experience the energy.

But it looks like fury. It looks like anger. So that's the natural, that's part of nature to experience all sorts of vibrations, sensations. But yes, the separation is a story. So even if the story would come up, it's not being believed. And that's a concept also, that you have something that somebody else hasn't got. It was a joke. Yeah, and it's a good one. It's a good one. Yeah, nothing is lost. Nothing is once you realize who you are not and once you realize that there is no you to even want to know who you really are, nothing is lost. Although certain things are unbelievable.

You can't believe, Bob, you are not good enough, poor me, like you said, this stuff. I'm a good bloke having a bad throat. Yeah, can't believe it. Can't believe it because there's no one there who would want to believe that I'm good or not good. Yeah, you can say the body is old or young or pretty or ugly, but that's just the body and the essence that you are. Can't say anything about it. It's expression which is behavior or reaction. I can say all these things that I know are not the truth, so it doesn't hurt. Yes. They're not bounding. Yes. And now, Tanya, nothing wrong with those things appearing, hey man?

I take that awareness includes all. That's right. And Aldo, yes, he's had a go at me. You had a go at Aldo. Hi Bobcat, Rachel says. When did I have a go at Aldo? I don't know, maybe a long time ago. Well, the truth is also that, and I heard it, I heard people accusing Bob of having a go with them. Even your step-granddaughter, when he says he's too tired to go into head games like this, she started lecturing him how he should, I don't know. It's just people have concepts. Sometimes he responds to something clearly and it feels like he's having a go. Maybe he did.

Or maybe he didn't. So, yeah, sometimes things appear. And Heyman says, thank you for exposing what you and Bob have. We have the whole universe. It is appearing in what I am. The whole world, including you. So, that's not really even having, it's just being in a different form. But yeah, you could call it this way. And Rohan, I remember one point that Teresan Max made in Satsang. Anger still arises, but it happens to no one. So there is no resistors to hold onto it. As anger appears, it will subside with nothing to stick to. Yeah, beautifully said. Anything that arises, if there is no story to sustain it and keep it going, it disappears.

Shalin, more often I'm turning my attention from the fleeting to the constant. Beautifully said. Jim, is also saying hi. Rachel and Jim, they're there. Hi Rachel and Jim, good to hear from you. And Heyman says, indeed Tanya. Aldo says, many times I was his punching bag. Ouch, ouch. What a painful story. But you didn't hold the resentment because you're here now. Tanya, it suddenly struck me as you were talking, Bob, that the words can't bound you. That's right. Yes, and Aldo says, I still love him though. Beautiful. Oops, not a keyboard savey this morning, Rachel says. And Barbara, hello Bob, I think I'm behind the times.

When you came to Perth in the late 90s, your wife was Barbara and I was Barbara. And I remember driving you and Barbara around Fremantle. My question is, what happened to her? Are you in a new marriage? Yeah, Barbara, my wife died at first. It's here. The picture is here. 2011. Ten years ago she died. And yes, Bob was single for five years and then life placed me here. To get him healthy and happy. Rachel, Jim here. Oh, that's from Jim. What you experience, Hyman, is quite usual. It's oneness playing the game of two-ness looking for oneness. Nicely said. Yeah, the cat is distracting, Bob.

He knocked my whole ball out, yeah. That's it. Good catch. Good reflexes. I think we have, Barbara says, thank you. I wish you both all the best. By the sound of it, you are Polish like myself. Yes, I am. Yeah, Barbara is, I see the Polish last name. Yes, . Glad to hear from you. You remember driving around in Fremantle in Perth? Vaguely, no. Vaguely, yeah. It's a long time ago. Yeah, I used to work there. I used to fly to Perth and work from, take a helicopter to the ships there. Around. It was a nice town. God damn, both of them says Hyman and laughing.

God damn, both of them. Yeah, he's in a champagne type of a mood today. Very happy. Yes, so the basic reminder of the natural state. It is as in nature. It is always present. It's always there. If it's not right here, right now, it's not worthy of pursuing. Which means if you are believing or hoping that there is something in future that will bring the realization or liberation of awakening. No. It's not going to happen because there is no future. The future is a concept. It's a story in the head. And also the belief for some future event is always in the relation to who the me.

There is a me that wants to get something or add something. And what Bob keeps saying is that not only there is no me, but you are already the totality, the essence, the life essence, the awareness, the consciousness. You are already that which experiences, experiencing, knowing of being. So there is nothing to be add. There is everything. The whole universe is already yours. You don't need to add anything to it. And also, who has ever experienced a future? Only in the story. You know, when you were a child, you thought you will grow up and then you grew up. Oh yeah, it happened. And then in the story it happened.

Because in the immediacy, all that you can experience is seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. That's the experiencing. Now we put the context into it and create a story. And for the sake of convenience and communication, of course there is a story of this unit, a body that is called me or I. You know, I could walk around and say, oh, this is Katarina going there or doing that. But that's not the story. That's inconvenient. So because of the language and because of the story that we put on that unit, communicational unit, body-mind, the assumption was made that the identity of that life essence is limited by that unit.

So now I am the body or the mind. Instead of being a totality expressing as the body-mind. Or using the body-mind for the experiencing. body-mind for the experiencing and expressing so this is a misconception and that misconception can be investigated seen through and discarded it's just one thought it's just one wrong idea that once that one wrong idea of me being limited in the body by the body if that one is seen true life happens as it always does but it doesn't happen to me it just dances it just does what it does and i'm the consciousness in which it happens and i'm free and even if unpleasant situations happen they don't happen to me they just live dancing and life has to dance and appear in pairs of opposites because if i never experience pain how would i know pleasure.

If I never experienced the darkness, how would I know the light? All that can be experienced is dualistic. All that can be experienced has the opposite. And both of the opposites are inevitable. If there is white board and white pen, you can't really bring out anything. There has to be the duality. So there has to be anger. And what's the opposite of anger? Peace or love, hatred, fear, courage, or whatever you define. Like Bob is saying, the mind is always moving between the pairs of opposites, vibrating between good, a little bit less good, neutral, bad, very bad. Always between the two ends of the stick.

Boundaries. Boundaries, yes. And those boundaries are language, words. If I didn't have the words, good and bad, I would experience a vibration. Without the label or definition of that vibration, it would be just plain experience. And this is what we see when we look at our cats. I'll just show you the cats meditating. So they experience all the energy without having a story about what they experience, without the pleasure, pain, good and bad. So everything is just as it is. And it moves on as it is. But because I have the story, when I experience some energy, I label the energy, and I bring all the past memories.

I said, oh, I heard it before, or I heard it before, in the past. Let's say I experienced rejection. And then suddenly all the rejections from the past lined up and say, yes, that's the same, that's what it is. And the sustaining story keeps the rejection. And the pain gets unbearable. And then you need to sedate. You need to find something to distract yourself. And you need to find something to distract yourself. And then you need to find something to distract yourself. from pain be it sex or drugs or whatever money fame name whatever distracting from that present experiences because it has been labeled because it has been defined as something undesirable while there has been a lot of research made showing that the energy of bubbling through the body the same energy the same chemicals in particular contexts can be interpreted by the body as excitement so now i'm excited i'm going for the whatever skydiving and in another setting the same energy would be interpreted as fear because i'm gonna go and meet my boss who's gonna fire me so the same sort of a bubbly energy because we label it interpreted is and it is all all in the relation to me to me my story my preferences my desire suddenly i'm limited also and i have the all the conceptual definition of what i should be how i should be so of course that that causes a lot of suffering but when i see through the whole game the whole idea of the fictitious entity here and then the world in the relation of the entity and then the world in the relation of the entity and then the world in the relation of the physical entity if i see that there is no one there is just life is just life moving like a river is just life blowing like a win it doesn't do with to break that three it doesn't do with when it one it doesn't have any agenda it just is and the whole life always creates in every event every circumstance if i'm still self obsessed and something happened to me i will straight away say all i have deserved that all i have конечно that the manics at that all are trying to keep that Oh, I have attracted that or any sort of stories of justification that people have.

You know, something, let's say someone will slap me or steal from me and then suddenly a painful story. What did I do in life because of the assumption or idea of justice? No, life just dances. Interpretations or stories or attraction, they all have its place. They do because obviously, you know, certain thinking habit or focus of the attention, the habit that creates the experience. Of course, if I habitually delete everything that is positive and only see the dreadful stuff and if I habitually keep my body always curled and breathe from the top of my lungs, yes. That. Attraction. Attracts certain situations. But I don't really do it.

Is again the set of habits that does it is the conditioning that does it. And if I realize that I'm beyond the habits and the conditioning, who knows those habits may start breaking or not. But there's no one who cares. And the life may move me to do something about certain habits. And I wouldn't say that this is my credit. I would say the life moves that wind. Or that river or that ocean. See if we have any. Barbara says also, you told me I wasn't in my heart. Best comment ever made. Do you remember? I wasn't in my heart. I'll tell you that. A lot of water flowing under the bridge since then.

I've seen a lot of people since then. Yes. And what comes out of the time is what comes out of the time. Yeah. It's also they say Nisargadatta was saying contradictory things, different things to different people. But really it was always what was relevant in the moment. To say, you know, yeah, you're not in your heart would be probably relevant if there is some sort of an identification with the emotional center. Because emotional center is also a way to express. It's not the ultimate. But yeah. So for people who are particularly attached to their thinking, you might say, well, feel or think of yourself more as the heart.

Like you say sometimes listen from the heart, the core, the core or the essence of your being, which is not located where the physical heart is. But it kind of feels like there is no within and without, but it's kind of feels like a pointer. And if you look at the point or two within, it would be more accurate than the pointer to without. Don't look outside for the answer. But yeah. The core or the center. Center of the spirit. Yes. The spiritual center is heart. Not the physical heart. And Rohan says, I love it. Both of you can speak about the past knowing full well that there is no such thing.

Ha ha. Oh. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Oh. That's the playing. Yes. The Rohan point that we can all speak about the past. We can all use the storage of the computer, the memory, and even though we know that in reality, there's only this moment and the whole past, including brain, including memory, including all the files there that you could stimulate with, the electrodes are just projected out.

But they are content of this moment. There is no past. There is only you. but yes we have total access to all the memories although vague sometimes and not personal anymore the most personal moments in my entire life most dreadful moments moments of near-death experience or moments of the dread of rejection or the heartbreak they when i revisit those moments now they're completely redefined they fascinating moments of the extreme experiences extreme emotions but they're not mine they don't cause the same they like somebody else's story they treasured they precious but they not yeah they not like they know they're not unresolved emotions that you deny or suppress anymore they welcome that's uh it's incredible and uh caroline can you speak about addiction addictions pop cats i can tell you all about addictions yeah yeah yeah they're habits and they kind of all often sustained especially when you go into self-medication when you suffer that's the source of such a profound self-destructive habit well totally totally lost in the self-center or the ego you can it's easy to be addicted to a lot of things yeah although they are addictions even without it like you know i'm hooked on the hot chocolate for last couple of months and i was kind of thinking i don't want to be hooked on anything of course it's sugar free and the plant milks is not really that bad but uh i didn't want to be hooked on anything and i just kind of googled it to see what the side effects of that are and they will be good so well when there's no maybe there's no one to be addicted to anything no no but the body is still kind of getting a little bit sick and then when there's no any kind of, no, it's not just me, it's that there are people in the world that are addicted to a lot of things.

and when there's no me, there's no one to be addicted to anything. no no but the body is still kind of getting addicted to a lot of things. um a little bit more easily. But the body is still kind of getting there, starting the day from a nice little sugar-free hot chocolate. And, yeah, Bob is on beetroot. Beetroot. Polish basht. The addiction. It's not an addiction. It's something that I'm just using as energy, food energy. But it's yummy. But it's yummy. Of course it's yummy, but a lot of other things are not. You're not addicted to everything that's yummy. No, I know. I know, yeah.

Addictions we actually define as something that is detrimental. Yes, something you're attached to. You think you can't live without it. That's right, yeah. And who is the you that can't live without it? And at the same time we have examples of addictions. Well, I did that when I was drinking. I believed I couldn't live without it. But I've lived for 60 years without it. So the mind was telling me bullshit. Yeah. Listening to the mind, you know. Don't listen to that. Yeah. When I see that it tells, doesn't point the truth. Speak about addictions. John David, if two are in room together, how many awarenesses are there?

It's one. Hi John. Yeah, John, haven't I seen you for a while? Yeah. It's one without a second. There's not two. Just one awareness appearing as two. Yeah, just showing up in two forms. Actually four because we have a couple of cats here too. And if you think of being, every single thing, every object has the being. And who is there to say that they are dead or alive or sentient or insentient? And that's a different Caroline? The background with seemingly a number of persons in it. Yes. GK. Hey. How does... Karma and evolution fit in? Thanks. Who's that in it? GK. Karma? Mm. Well, karma is cause and effect, basically.

Yes. Now, if me is the cause and you see that there's no me, can there be an effect without a cause? Well, there can't be. So you can be rid of your karma just like that. Mm. Yeah, that's from the personal karma, yes. If you realize that there is no one to who it applies, you just see that yes, everything in the world is uncaused because it has multitude of causes, so... In the belief of the me, even, it's me as the cause of my anxiety, my stress, my guilt, my unhappiness, and all the other things, man. The cause. And they are the effects of the cause, me.

Yeah. And the cause of my anxiety, stress, guilt. There's no me, nothing to relate to. Relationship is duality. No, nothing to relate to. It's just the one essence appearing, expressing as everything. How about evolution? Evolution? Mm. Well, that's a natural, spontaneous functioning. You're evolving right now. Mm. Every breath you take is a fresh, new breath. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a... It's a spontaneous activity. Mm. You evolve from a sperm and an ovum, and before that, that was a new life. Mm. And now, you're evolving from a sperm and an ovum, and before that, that's a new life. Mm. And now, you're evolving from a sperm and an ovum, and before that, that's a new life.

Mm. And now, you're evolving from a sperm and an ovum, and before that, that's a new life. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a... It's a spontaneous activity. Mm. You evolve from a sperm and an ovum, and before that, the essence of the food eaten by your father and your mother. And the little embryo formed... But that's in the story about time. Yeah. Mm. So the human experience on the... In that... The form, experience as a form, inevitably has the time in it. It's just part of the experience. Mm. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm.

Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. as tells in the Rai Bhagita. There was no creation, no creator, and no creature. You and I and everything else are creatures, creatures, seemingly solid and real but they're all ephemeral. No substance or any independent nature to any of it. Yeah so the idea that there is an ego that survives the death is a romantic thought, maybe an energy of memory or anger that can actually get released but the ego is not the reality. There's only life as the Sargaratha says.

There's nobody or no thing that lives a life. Life lives on life. Out of life more life comes, keeps coming up. Reincarnation or any other versions of immortality through the body, is it a reality? No, it's not. They come from the basic fear of being mortal, of being, of having an expiry date, which is a fear that is so ridiculously conceptual because you can't even imagine how it is not to be. So why would you be afraid of something that is so beyond imagination? Be afraid of what is gonna be in hundred years when this body-mind is not here? cares like what is what is really fearful about non-existence and can the energy ever get destroyed it can change form so when the energy that is fueling this body just like when the electricity that is fueling the computer if we take this one to be at the computer and then the life essence is the power so if that power switches off if the body expires and the power is off what happened to the energy is it killed is dead no is it destroyed no it's still potential but if the same energy now joins and fuels the tree is it really reincarnation no if i switch off one computer and start on the other is it reincarnation that the power that few that fuel it doesn't feel well but you can tell it say it this way it's not really a reincarnation because to incarnate is to turn into meat so what turns into meat the pure life essence turns into that sperm and ovum and then it grows into a body and now the body decays and the bacterias and maggots deteriorate the body and that body turns into the whatever the fertilizer of the soil or ash whatever it turns to so it came into carnation and out of carnation and now how it can reincarnate what do you mean the ash can yeah it can maybe become a part of the plant it may but is it really that's not what the reincarnation story is about it is about a solid sort of a second body or subtle body or some imagined body that is running this physical body and that's not a bad story we can all agree and believe in it and it will be reality when it's believed it's all spontaneous no time how can it driven it is not in time and and different versions of that immortality dream is hell and heaven it's no different is it's not even less sophisticated or or more childish no it's a it's a sweet little story about sitting on the trees and singing Hosanna and not having yes or or going to hell and being punished heaven and hell are in thinking on earth once you sleep or once you unconscious it's not much heaven hell going on and once the body is dead or any other dreams that any other stories that are being believed into being they they nice hell came from some old I think it was some old English word mean to be shut off the sheep were held into a pen or room they shut off from it God says I can't say anything about anything only now is there what is happening yeah good beautiful yes nothing dies only transforms Aldo says yes and D where does yes and D where does the formation of what is the creation it can't be continuous incentivization all right well what else should we talk about and I think it could be something that you've had to have to say or share with us could you have any comment or a message?

mind yourself often as possible there's only this presence moment yeah just relax out of the intellectualizing and thinking and where does the practice formal practice feed into it you can't say it didn't did help you can't say it didn't put you put you through that you went through it and if it's taking you further on well it's done what it made was necessary to do yeah yeah it's just as is just a little disclaimer with the formal practices if you are moved to sit in silence and just focus on the silence or just indiscriminately move the thoughts away of the picture like say next to each thought just sitting and relaxing to being and next next just not really that seems like something that's not really happening and I think that's what I'm trying to say but it's something that might be helpful but the disclaimer is watch out for any attempt to take credit for it like oh I'm meditating 20 minutes a day I'm better than you or I'm meditating for one hour so I'm getting better and I'm getting closer to getting it or the longer I meditate the closer I am to realisation those those little ideas that the that the mind drops are the things that I need to do to get anything if there's no I can be a meditator yes there's no meditator what can you meditate on so a meditation that's what I call me undistracted non meditation yeah just whatever you moved to do just recognize like Bob often says give credit where credit is due if you to sit in quiet, you say, oh, life moves this body to sit in quiet.

It's not the I that wants to achieve something in future. The longer I sit in quiet, the more I will get there, because the I never gets anything. The I is a story. The I is a thought. So the I, no matter how long the I imagines to sit and torture itself, is the absence of I that is clarity. And meditation goes on with trying to become one. Yes. But if you already are one, what's the point of trying? Just recognize that. Yeah. And you may be moved to recognize that in silence. The recognition may come as you just relax into your chair or take a special posture, whatever life moves you to do.

Recognition is available moment to moment. It's us available. So in meditation, as it is outside of meditation, it's just the receptivity, the openness, the heartfelt, I wouldn't call it desire, but the commitment, perhaps, that openness that actually makes it shine through. Like they say, God is coming to the quiet mind. So people try to quieten the mind. But the quiet mind, the mind can be as noisy as it is. But what you are is what underlies the mind. That is where the quiet is. That is what you are. So the realization and the contemplation is even possible is quite often realized in this way. When the mind gets to the peak of its craziness, the peak of the suffering, and that is when something opens up.

So it really isn't, there is no prerequisite or rule. Then after this point is that being realizing the mind is the only thing that is clear. You are not DIFFERENT from the mind. OK. OK. Is there a way, is the mind, the mind, the mind to be there? Yes. It is the mind that is what is being there. Yes. The mind is the mind. And then, as I think about it, the mind is the mind as you think about it. And so, the mind is very, very limited. It is limited to the mind. The mind is not, as you say, the mind of a person.

When you think about a person, the mind that he is, the mind that is moving, the mind is not the mind that's moving. The mind is the regular mind, the mind that is moving. It is not. It's the mind that is moving. You think you are the I thought, but you gladly give that up every night when you go to sleep. So there's no thought there. Have you disappeared? Nope. You haven't. You're still breathing, heart's still beating. And GK, is there a need for morality and personal responsibility? Thank you. Yeah. Naturally that will happen. That's part of the socialising. So the need, if you say a need, then it means there is something that you are ready to implement.

And there's no you. So yes, statistically, morality and the benevolence and the willingness to help and serve and love everyone is naturally there, the less you suffer. Because when you are in pain, in struggle, you are confined, you are in that self-pity, that self-pity. That's where you are. That's where you're in that self-obsession mode, the survival mode, where you really wanna get out of there and you would climb on somebody else's back. And when you are really irritable and angry, you tend to poke everyone else around you. That sort of energy breeds more of the unkindness. But when you are happy, when you are relaxed, when you kind of feel that life is better, when you are happy, when you are relaxed, when you kind of feel that life is better, then that's the best thing.

life is good if you believe in or you call the life God or love and you are in tune with that sort of that sort of vibration of the consciousness or that level of expression why would you ever need the morality you would not want to hurt anyone you could shout it from the rooftop to bring everyone else to experience the love of being and the joy of being so the conditioning towards moral behavior moral means you know in one culture that means this in another culture it means something completely different it's a set of rules that is adopted during the socialization but the natural ethics the natural compassion the natural benevolence is there when you were in when you happy when you relaxed when you at peace with life you have no agenda to harm anyone the probability that you would do any harm to anyone is much much less than when you are unhappy dissatisfied you hate humanity you believe that this is all hell and it would be better yeah any sort of selfish beliefs or relation beliefs here we form a concept about everybody and everybody forms a concept about us and we all have a concept about ourselves yeah which concept which is only a mental construct would be right when you realize no concept right they're all mental constructs who can be superior to you it would be inferior to you and what do you want to the other persons naturally you can kind of be the morality there if you don't want anything from anybody but that's where all the wars and everything go on because we take these concepts to be real we don't like this and we like that and we have concept about it fear anxiety stress guilt shame remorse all these king things come up because of the concepts we hold mental constructs Divya what does it mean if we all believe in it it will become a reality I said about reincarnation I'm curious about that see how the whole how the whole world is kind of agreed upon we agree to trust science so the electricity has been invented we agreed that it exists we agreed that the walls are solid and then they are solid they all appearance the whole world is just a mere field of probability of very fast-running whatever you know even Buddha before quantum mechanics knew that the world was illusion and even physics always can become an illusion even many küttis can become their own that we think we believe clairvoyant or whatever even Buddha before quantum mechanics knew that the world was illusion and even physics can be meant though soon we think that the Entity is only an illusion yes this science then P thunder this overlooking the too longokenixisch Uno is going to judge so obviously wars and it forget it and involves evenjudgenius why rocket trials are so give you an equation of how to put your hand through the wall when you have the with the probability of course so we do agree upon the experienced reality we agree upon what is ethical or what is moral we agree that cheating on your husband is immoral but yeah in other cultures there might be a different sets of rules even we agree on colors like you look out and you see the tree and we agree that this one is called tree and the leaves are green we don't know if other people experience the textures and the colors in the same way as we do we just agree on it maybe they see different but yeah the reality is even the collective beliefs because it is all vibration now let's say I don't believe that certain medication will help me but everyone else in the world give it so much of the energy that this particular medication has that capacity or power or energy because it really is a vibration so I take it on pain disappears whoa I didn't believe it will help but it did because of the collective belief you is is something is a model is a story but it's kind of it's kind of plausible explanation of how the world abuse appears solid and substantial even though it is not yeah we could all agree and they were societies that agreed of existence of some sort of entities or I think kahuna is believed in some sort of parental angels or of spirits and everybody is a model of a had access to it because they existed they are communities that believe in certain spirits of the plants for example the power plants and they act as if and they experience realities as if they were real you could subscribe to it and experience it as well i know a couple of friends who do actually believe in angels and they experience their touch they experience even in visual field a little light here hiding they do because of the belief especially when there is a community that believes we like if you go to christian community they believe in trinities the god that his son was crucified and resurrected and nobody questions it that's the belief that's that happened end of story we don't know there's no objective possibility to actually verify that but yeah collective belief and i think we're going close to the time because i can see thank you all but rohan says in only that is a moment before bob came to nisargadatta he had some experience of swami nityananda in a subtle realm however as you said kat it is still part of the story of the one i guess nothing is really impossible as far as the story goes that's right nothing's impossible yeah yeah and although i tell people i'm perfect and i was never born and people think i'm another yeah it's probably more socially acceptable if you tell them because if you say i'm perfect well first of all i'm narcissistic psychopath and whatever else what i am is not the body of course the body is not perfect of course the mind the thinking the behavior is not perfect but the essence is pure perfection and the essence what i am and the essence of what you are the essence with the tree the cut and everything else is like this this electricity that fuels the toaster and the computer and the and the tesla car but yeah they would think you're another yeah you gotta watch out the best way to communicate with people is to learn how to communicate with others because that's what you teach everybody needs to be to actually hear them and see what what they understand by themselves and strengthen it rather than just impart caroline there is only awareness here reincarnation is another concept story that's right yes story of the time where is the reincarnation if there is no future and goes when you let go of the object that is making you suffer and investigate suffering you find it is love for self beautiful yeah that's so true yes yeah any any motivation any action any behavior comes from love for the self although the self may be misguided the interpretation of what the self is may be very selfish very little very limited but any action any action including the suicide bombers killing themselves including the suicide yes caroline although maybe stick with the I'm perfect or perfect love yeah yeah I just yeah I like it like life moves you too and GK thank you very much for your precise and loving answers thank you you you Michelle there may be more arising in Michelle there may be more arising in Michelle there may be more arising in emptiness that most of us experience yeah emptiness that most of us experience yeah emptiness that most of us experience yeah that's a nice nice idea hmm yeah that's a nice nice idea hmm yeah that's a nice nice idea hmm yeah seems like that emptiness keeps dancing and seems like that emptiness keeps dancing and seems like that emptiness keeps dancing and creating more forms like everything creating more forms like everything creating more forms like everything is a form in emptiness the the forms of the is a form in emptiness the the forms of the is a form in emptiness the the forms of the solids material forms and the forms solids material forms and the forms solids material forms and the forms of like more subtle like thought of of like more subtle like thought of of like more subtle like thought of feeling or memory feeling or memory feeling or memory memory constant in so many versions and now thank you messages and thank you from Tanya for every expression of one essence here, such beauty and clarity expressing, lots of gratitude and love and thank you from Sally Amarnath no more, only emptiness with fullness paradox yes and Arthur and now we've got just thank you messages so I think that's the time to say thank you thank you thank you everyone thank you for contributing and for putting it in words so beautifully and clearly good questions good to know that you know that there's only that and you are that yes and if doubts come keep looking at them they're nothing more than thoughts and it's only the thought it's only one thought away you're yawning yeah okay lunch time thank you everyone have a beautiful Sunday and yes love you all