Sailor Bob + Kat, Nonduality

Hi all, hi all. And that is all there is, all. That's what we point to. Non-duality. We call it non-duality but people get locked and start arguing and fighting over that term even. It's all indivisible. One without a second. I say all, it's a totality. All is the everything and it also is the nothing. The no-thing. So it's indivisible. Can there be great or small? Can there be time or space? If there can't be great or small, a thousand years or a million years can only be now. Without division. Now can only be a million light years or whatever you like to call it. It's all exactly as it is.

Suchness. Such as it is in itself. If you've looked at any of these scriptures or texts, you've seen all these terms used before. Maybe we haven't recognised what they actually stand for or actually mean. It tells you in the Hensing men, the great way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. In the Taoists they say, the way that can be spoken of is not the way. We can't put any names, labels, shapes or forms. They are what describes it or what discriminates it. And they are all it also. Because they're all vibration. It's all a movement of that one intelligence energy. And I use the term intelligence energy and others have used that term also.

There's nothing new under the sun. Intelligence is not your intellect as far as I'm concerned. But it is the activity of knowing. And knowing is awareness. Awareness is knowing. Isn't that so? So when you say my awareness, whose awareness is it? See? We've divided it and made it seemly separate. It belongs to me. The other way, the me belongs to awareness. The same as everything else belongs to that awareness. Without what we call awareness, there could be no manifestation. So if there could be no manifestation, awareness would be that term God also, wouldn't it? God is supposed to be knowing everything. And awareness is an activity of knowing.

Any activity is a movement. And any movement is energy. So it's intelligence energy. The activity of knowing. And isn't that happened to you if you're listening to this and aware sitting where you are right now? Isn't it an activity of knowing that's there with you right now? I say with you. But you are it. You are with it. With you implies that it's with that body mind. That you think it's appearing in. You think it's happening in. That is a seeming pattern through which it expresses, yes. But it is that essence which is expressing and forming the pattern in it. Even the awareness. It's no thing in which everything appears.

But it was indivisible. The everything is already the no thing. And it's no thing. And the no thing is already the everything. And again going back to that Hinsing Ming. When I said when no discriminating thoughts arise the old mind ceases to be. This thing we believed in is mind, the mental process. It's the one essence itself still also. And the discrimination in that seeming discrimination separates, divides seemingly and makes all these separate patterns, individuals and all the things that are in this manifestation. Now the definition of the manifestation is illusion. They say it's illusionary. It's that which appears to be. Phenomena. The definition of phenomena appearing to be is only seemingly so.

It seems to be so. And it seems to be so. And it seems to be very real that I am this person. And you are that person. And the person is a persona. Coming from that word persona which is the mask. And we've got to wear a mask because of this coronavirus. Wearing that mask doesn't obscure part of the features. Part of the feelings. That's what a mask does. It obscures things. It blocks things out. It's supposed to block the germs out from getting to you. An obscuration. And what's the obscuration? The belief that I'm the person. A separate entity. An individual. I can stand on my own.

Separate and apart from anything. This is a non-dual. Manifestation. There's nothing other than that. That is what it is. And that's all it is. What is. What is means it's unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. No preference. No partiality. No comparison. It's only that one essence. Which makes you screen which that essence is. It's silence. It's stillness. It's emptiness. It's a cognising emptiness. It's an emptiness that has the capacity of cognising or knowing. And it is the emptiness that's forming and shaping all this manifestation. So the emptiness, as the Buddha tells you, is form. And the forms are nothing other than the emptiness. So it's still only that pure, absolute awareness.

That seemingly vibrating, shimmering, shaking, or spontaneously, subtly moving. Like a ripple appears on the still ocean. And that ripple becomes a wave. And it becomes a billow. It becomes a stream. Foam. And it becomes a wave. And it becomes a wave. And it becomes a wave. And it becomes a wave. And it becomes a wave. And it becomes a wave. And it becomes a wave. Foam. And everything else. A subtle vibration that goes through it. It's a tsunami. Has it ever changed from being the ocean? And the ocean ever changed from being water? And has the water ever changed from being a couple of elements?

Oxygen. And hydrogen. And those elements, they can be broken down into subatomic particles. Into no thing. So, as soon as they take on those shapes and forms they become things. And look at this manifestation and realise that everything in it, including you and me, the only things that are appearing on that screen are things. Something appearing on no-thing. But when you realise the appearance is illusion, and that the illusion, the idea of illusion is illusory also. So it can't be grasped. Try and escape from it. We've been trying to escape from it for years and got lost along the way. And some innately functioning, that intelligence energy functioning innately has, you know, let's that perceiving persona know there's got to be a little bit more to it than this.

And it moves you. And you're looking along other different paths to try and find that way. And that's what needs to happen. Allow it. Let it take you where it's going to take you. And see. And me, as the pattern, shape and form wasn't able to do that. And didn't even know that it needed to be done for many years. Because I was locked in this belief from the time the capacity of reasoning developed. And I was locked in this belief from the time the capacity of reasoning developed. And I was locked in this belief from the time the capacity of reasoning developed. And I learnt words from my parents.

And I learnt words from my parents. And it took me out of that. It took me from one thing to another thing, a seeming thing, to where I needed to be to see that there was actually no things. Even that was thinking. The body, mind, entity, the person, the me that was thinking there was something to get. Or somewhere to go. That was pointing to the recogniser. Recognising what was saying was to. there is, see for yourself, is there something in the investigation? Realize there's not. There is no thing to get, there is no thing to be, there is no thing to see, there is nothing to do.

Where does that leave you? Present and aware, absolutely. Oh, they put it simply in the Buddhism when they call it the great perfection. Great perfection is a similar, has a similar meaning to the absolute. Absolute, you can't add anything to it, can't take anything away from it. Perfection, if it's perfect, you can't add anything to it, you can't take anything away from it. So they tell you the great perfection is non-conceptual awareness. And it is that basic screen, that awareness or knowingness, this is the great perfection. Abide, recognize, recognize and abide as that. That is the great mantra, if you want to repeat a mantra.

I am that. That is what I am is. Like Moses on the mountain when he realized I am that I am. I don't have to go anywhere to look for it or find it. Why? I've always been that. And he was able to do great so-called many things in those biblical statements, whether they're true or not, who knows? But you can recognize the truth in a lot of it. In the recognition of it, it's yours. But if you're just mumbling it in the belief that it's true and trying to say it's true, you don't. Know thyself is a great call. Know thyself. Who or what is thy or myself?

Well a very high word, thyself or myself, doesn't imply that it's something that I think I have got. I am. I am myself. But that is the personal self, the conceptual image. And it's not this body, this body mind self that I'm believing I am. It is the one self. That's all that there is. As they say, describe it in Hinduism as self-shining, self-sacrificing, self-sacrificing. Self-sacrificing. Self-sacrificing. Never fresh, presence awareness. It's present and aware. It is that awareness that's with you right now. Are you unaware right now? You are? No. I am not unaware. Or I wouldn't be able to hear, say, speak, say, or think this, if I was unaware.

But I am awareness. But do I think there's body-mind to being aware? Yes. but the body-mind is just another pattern or another thing appearing on that basic screen, like the tree, like the cloud, like the Sun, like the stars, like the planets, like the bodies, like the minds, like everything, everything that appears is appearing on that basic screen and a thing is not the actual. It is only appearing on it, so it is appearing, something appearing on the no-thing. We'll have a look at that one. Can something appear on the no-thing? It can seemingly so, like a dream appears on that no-thingness. When you're asleep there's no thing.

A dream appears. But how real is the dream when you wake up? And in that dream there were mountains, there were rivers, there were streams, there were buildings, there were skyscrapers, high-rise buildings, there were trams, there were cars. All these things were appearing in that dream. Where did they go when you woke up? How solid or substantial or real were they when you wake up? They disappeared. And what did you wake up to? Well, you wake up to this seeming dream of things. I was hearing it right now. There's, looking out the window here, there's trees, there's flowers, there's electric light wires, there's street lights that are not light any more.

There are clouds, there are blue sky, space, there's movement in the tree, an activity in the tree, the tree's not moving, the wind's moving it. The flag doesn't move when it's up near, but the wind moves it. What's the wind? A vibration. Vibration. air. What's vibrating in the air? What's stirring it? The same essence is causing you to breathe, your heart to expand and contract, your food to digest. It's rolling the earth around the sun. It's functioning in the smallest, minutest way and in the greatest way. The same essence. And it's not dividing into this. There's a little part of me got a blow that has caused the wind to blow.

Another, it's got the seas to rise and fall. Or another me to, part of me to breathe that human pattern. Or the flea, or the bacteria because of the jump. It is the one essence that can express as everything. The amazing and wondrous intelligence of it, the knowingness of it. And all. this diversity and all this human functioning and I, I am that. But I've seemingly bound that down into this human pattern form, encapsulated in a cage of concepts. A body, a mind. Body's a word, a mind's a word. What's this body, mind without the word and without other words to discriminate against it? Can you separate it?

Now take it away or take yourself away or even if you can't take yourself, take it away from that awareness that you are. Can you separate it? Can you divide it up for a minute? If that life wasn't functioning through it, you'd be a corpse and that vibrating pattern wouldn't stay a vibrating pattern because there's no way to separate it. So the processes are continuing to disintegrate and break down and rot till the bones, even the bones and the seniors all can break down into the cognising emptiness again. The very soil that it becomes breaks down into. So though it's seemingly change and it is, it's transient, it's constantly changing.

But see if it's constantly changing, what is substantial or solid about it? What is it that doesn't change? Anyway, that's the basic story that's going on. There's a few of you there now I hope and you can tell me about it or share it with others that might like to hear it. I have a couple of questions. There is a question from Tanya. How do you see the appearance as illusion? I don't feel separate but there seems to be a body here and other bodies which are appearances also they seem real yeah I seem real and seemingly they that they appear to be real and that's the manifestation a phenomenal manifestation the definition of phenomena is that which appears to be it's not it is real in its essence just the same as that the feeling that's with you that's the real in the essence of you but what part of the body it feels real it has feeling separating through it in but you can take it apart you can cut your hand off and you'll still live without that hand or any part of the body can it appears to be real appears to be one essence and solid but that's how it seemingly is let's look through the samey to the reality of it and doesn't matter if it seems to be there or not then but you know the truth about if you know the truth though it's seemingly so and realizing it's constantly that seeming pattern that you say seems to be real right now what did you think of it ten years ago when it wasn't even the same pattern and could you even imagine what pattern what it is now ten years older you couldn't yet it has changed and right in this moment it's changing and that ten years I'm talking about it that's another concept also because time is a concept if there was no appearance no phenomenal manifestation what would what away would you be you would be that absolute essence what could you say think or do or feel and take or judge or discriminate nothing at all it would be seeming zeros you'll know thing which it is nothing in this essence but they're wonderful of it, the magnificence of it, that it can appear, pattern and express as everything.

Pure and applying it's a fuse with an innate intelligence or knowingness or awareness or godliness or whatever you like to call it. Yes, so there is another question from Israel. How can you tell the difference between so-called reality and dream reality? Well, have a look back on your dream right now. Was it real? Was it actually real? It appeared to be real while you were in it, didn't it? Now where are yesterday? Go back and live yesterday. That seemed very real while you were living. Can you relive it? Can you recall it exactly as it was? You can't. You can't. You might form other concepts and ideas.

But what is real about it? What is real is the very life essence that it is now. Not the thoughts or patterns or thinking that's going on, but that which is the breathing, the heart beating, the hair and fingernails growing, the functioning, the actual reasoning that can go on through utilizing this body. That's the reality. How it appears. The definition of reality is that. The definition of reality is that which never changes. And so all these things can appear and seemingly real, but can all be valid in the appearance. But in their actuality there's nothing real. The no thing is real. Beautiful. So reality and dream reality type of illusions are so-called.

Now, Rohan is saying, Hi Bob. Can we say that remembering the seeming reality is not real? Yes. Remembering the seeming past and getting upset over it is identical to recalling a dream and getting upset over that. Remembering a dream and getting upset over that seems ridiculous. We know it never happened. It seems like we do the same thing with personal past, but there is a belief in that being real. In this. Saming it. A white pattern. Which is just the life as an awakeness. Things that seems if you're relating to the past and recalling it, that can seem to be very real again. And you can seem to get some value out of it by utilizing it to your advantage.

But it's still only dream. No matter how wondrous and amazing it seems to be. Yeah, but that's a really good point, Rohan. Now chat says. Papaji said. Whenever you see name and form, it is dream. So anything that you see or know is a dream. Reality is no thing, no form, no shape, no name, no thing. Couldn't have put it better. Yes. Israel says thank you for answering the question. That's all for now. That's all for now. Yeah. Papaji says. I'm not going to say it. Many others recognize. So it's recognized by many. But some of those many distort it and get the wrong concept and wrong idea of it if they think, personally think that they've worked it out in the mind.

But it comes to you. The reality, the truth, and just knowing the truth, recognizing the truth. You can only express the truth. And that frees you from the belief. And all these conceptual entities. You like to add anything? Okay. See what comes up. See what comes up. Hi, everyone. I don't really have anything in particular, but things come up. So there is the one is recognized by many, says Rohan. Yep. The one is recognized by many. And in fact, if you really look deep enough, everyone has the glimpses of recognition. They know it. And they don't even know what they know, how much they know, how deeply they know it.

They share it. And even that one, one is recognized by the many. But if the many weren't there, could they be the one? That's right. Yeah, that's a good point. The many is the one also. And now Cha, I was half asleep the other day and noticed the mind was just making up stories by itself. That's good to see, isn't it? That's really good to notice. Because once you notice the mind making up the story, you're already not the mind making up the story. You are the witnessing principle that is seeing the mind making stories. So that's already a freedom from the entanglement or the identification with the mind.

You're not the story maker. You're the awareness of it. And Tanya, thank you. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That's a good point. That's what I wanted to say. To me, the screen is real and unchanging. The pattern has never done anything. You are being believed. No chooser or controller, this can easily be seen if you watch the body over, over the apparent course of the day. The intelligence energy is what is functioning, not a separate person. That's right. The separate person is what is taking credit for functioning for some of the functioning, like the person's soul. Yeah. on so-called the imagine controller doesn't take credit for heartbeat but it still it doesn't take credit for digestion but it often may even take credit for indigestion it's it occasionally take credits for thinking and it's just such a logical answer that bob came up with like if you are choosing your thoughts stop choosing the bad ones stop choosing the judgmental ones and see how well you do you can have 40 years of clarity and you see the situation and the label comes up spontaneously and the judgment comes up spontaneously the credit-taking doesn't but the functioning part of the functioning of the of the interpreting the the computer is to throw out all sorts of associations and images and labels names and state-neutral unless unless there is judgment over judgment or preference over the preference that's you know this is nothing wrong now tanya says oh no that we've been there yes that's the minds modus operandi jane says and bill it's just this wanting to add to or subtract from justice is life experiencing that something should be added or subtracted to justice justice of choice of choice of life of choice of life of choice of life of choice of life of choice of life always remains ever present perfect and whole that's right every activity is the same life there is no even taking credit for activity is still another pattern in that life the way that pure field of potentiality expresses it expresses as the body it expresses as apparent imagined controller in the body it expresses as pattern of taking credit by the controller for the actions of the body it is all just the dance of different software different algorithms going and calculating and interpreting and playing out and the screen or that space like awareness is never touched by any content or any pattern or any behavior that is appearing on it oh as he says builds his whole complete total absolute all included there's nothing extra perfect and nothing wrong yes perfect israel not driving the bus we are just passengers yeah we are the totality ultimately we are the bus and the driver and the passenger and every little screw in the wheel of the bus yes it's indivisible you can't separate and rohan as terry says if we could choose our thoughts we would just switch them off and we would just switch them off and we would just switch them off and we would just switch them off and we would just switch them off once a while and go fishing yeah or as bob says you would choose only blissful thoughts only beautiful thoughts but yeah there is a it's a great illusion that you are responsible for your thinking because the whole world is responsible for your thinking your primary school teacher is responsible for your thinking your little brother well you are the whole world yes yeah ultimately on the ultimate level yes everything is indivisible and interconnected so it's just one thing dancing it's just one crystal throwing out different colors and tas morning bob hearing you talk of the vibration of the wind that moves the flag cut straight through all the idea of me to the fact of me no counterfeit for you today no what for me today counterfeit no counterfeit yes yeah that's all for now come on there's some good stuff coming through there yes responsibility for thoughts responsibility for actions responsibility ability to respond which is preconditioned which is already ingrained ingrained and is dependent on absolutely everything.

Response, I say response is natural, reactive, is based on thought. On thought. Yeah. You're acting, a previous thought, I've got a, it hits me, I've got to react to this. But you know, if you go, so many things you do, responsible, that's a natural response to it. See, I was sitting at the table this morning, I knocked something over and before it hit the floor I grabbed it. You know, I couldn't possibly do that if I'd have tried. If I was thinking, if you were thinking. Yeah. Now, Dee is saying, Jean Klein's analogy was of the curtain going down after a brilliant performance by a ballerina and then the clown comes on stage to take the applause.

Is it a good analogy? Yeah. That's a good one. That's a good one, yeah. That's beautiful. And responding, Jean gives couple of hearts to it. The idea of responding, response. See if there is any inspiration back there, which I perhaps miss. Oh, people, I see something. Cha, people wonder if there is life out there in the universe. The way I see it is the whole universe is alive. Or? There is a living life to everything else, but still a dream of a living dream. Who said that? Beautiful. Cha. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's only life. It's all life, isn't it? Yeah. Life lives on life. Out of life, more life comes.

But there's nobody who lives the life. The Sagada tells us that. Nobody lives the life. Yeah. I like the word life. Life. Life. Life. Life. Life. Life. Life. Life. Life. Life. There is life. I find life more than the word god. Because at least it doesn't have some sort of sexual association to male, female. Yeah. Although in shamanism you actually have life as female. Feminine. The mother earth, the life-giving Mother. Shiva Shakti. Yeah. Yeah. Shiva is kind of dead, and Shakti is kind of alive. But, uh, yeah. Shakti is the vibration reaction. Very good. Not always. I understand. aspect of it. Shakti dances, the dance of Shakti.

Yeah, it's a movement. Shiva is the static, the pure awareness or stillness, the basic screen. In Taoism they have it the opposite way. You have the... Taoism. Yeah, in Tao you have the yin yang symbol, and then the feminine is passive, is inactive, like sky, is like stillness, like Shiva. And masculine is active, masculine is life. Which I find really fortunate, that the symbols are completely opposite, they're just symbols to illustrate. They are not the truth. It just shows it can be either one. It can be static or not, it can be female or male. Yeah, yeah. What is beyond the male-female and... It's only the labels we put on the discriminator.

And beyond all the aspects. Beyond the static and dynamic, beyond the emptiness and form. Because even the way we perceive or we point to space or stillness or silence, they are still tangible objects, like the silence between the notes. There is a deeper, much greater emptiness that is enveloping or encompassing the silence and the sound. Both the sounds and the gaps. The gaps which create the silence. So there is just completely beyond any means, any language, any description, any pointer, that it is... The description can never be the described. Yes. The word is not the real. The map's not the territory. That's right. Yeah, yin and yang, Jane says, and chick and chong, Larry says.

Yeah, there couldn't be two if there wasn't one. Yeah. And even the one is actually too much to say, because we can't even say it is one, because it doesn't, you know... Even the one has to appear on something. And it's just appearance. Yeah, I'll get back to this one, since we don't have any other inspiration for a moment, which Rohan was showing up that, you know, you can view the past as a dream. You can totally view the past just the same way you view the dream. Something that you can't relieve, you can memorize, you can remember your dream and go through it, but you kind of, yeah, you don't take it too seriously.

And you can the same way remember the past and go through it and not remember it too seriously. The way the files are stored in the computer of the mind is not exactly how we imagine it to be. According to the newer science, it is not that there is some sort of a permanent connection which signifies the dinner ten years ago with the grandma. No. The moment the certain associations perhaps smells or shade of the light brings up the memory, it actually creates it spontaneously fresh and new. It is not something that is stored somewhere on the hard drive. It is something that is being...

improvised. Again, they say the mind is an improviser. It brings up memories. So suddenly you may find out that the memory stored about the dinner at grandpa's or grandma's had a red carpet and green rug on the table. And you find the old photography and you find this was not so. Also, the way whole psychotherapy is based on reframing and reinterpreting past experiences, events in the way that will be more sustainable and more healthy for the personality structure. So how reliable the past really is. Not only is spontaneous and is improvised every time when seemingly revisited. So it's like a dream. It's completely like a dream.

I can think about, let's say, my first love when I was in high school. And the images that will come will be completely different to the images that I was going through. There will be completely a dream. And yeah, just like the daydream, just like imagination, just like picturing the trip we're going to, let's say, take tomorrow. That's a dream. And this, what Rohan is saying, is just such a brilliant analogy. You can view it in the same way. But of course, the tendency is towards giving more reality to this waking dream and whatever it is associated, the present and past. This is part of the software.

This is the part of the interpreting algorithm in the bio computer. But knowing it, we can start seeing future and past as a dream. We can start seeing every daydream. Like right now, we are sitting here. We can talk or think about, let's say, another continent or another location or another person. That's a daydream. It is not in the immediacy. My eyes are not reporting, let's say, on Spain. My mom lives there. Spain. My eyes are not seeing in Spain. My ears are not hearing in Spain. There is nothing in the immediate reality that would be remotely connected to Spain or my mom. So it is a daydream.

I'm dreaming right now. I'm imagining dreaming it. So this is how much the dreams are completely entangled and ingrained in our daily reality. How many hours per day we have thoughts about what is not there. How often we have thoughts about the carpet that we are walking on. Not very often. But most of the dreams are what will happen or what was happening or perhaps rehearsing some encounters that are not happening presently. That's all dreaming. And there is nothing wrong with that. That's part of the functioning. Just recognizing that pattern brings the freedom, shows how mechanical it is, shows that the moment of recognition. Okay, there is some dream, Spain, mother, whatever is going on in the head.

But here, the awareness of the dream. I am the awareness. And dream still goes on. It doesn't need me. It still goes on. So it's mechanical. The recognition, this is what I am. And dream rolls on just like, you know, with the inertia. The energy went into the picture, the image. So that energy rolls it. And even if it's not there. If the energy is not sustained, is not given consistently into it, it will just die out. And the dream will just fade away. Well, in the dream, like we said, if you are daydreaming even, or being in Spain as you were saying. You would be in the town there or in the city or in the country.

Yes. Where is that dream taking place? In the mind. In the mind. Now, is Spain in your mind? No. In your brain? In your head anywhere? Yes. It's other people, isn't it? No. No, they're not at all. Not at all. And where are you? When you look at yourself in the sun, you appear to be awake in this dream. Where you might have dreamed of mountains or cities or oceans last night. Where are they now? What were they contained in? They weren't there in reality. And if you're thinking about them even now, we're trying to bring them up, or we go, what's the reality of them now?

Where are you right now? Present and aware. And which things take place in that presence or where? Now, there's all sorts of things take place, but as you say, you break it down, you recognize this wonderful brain we've got. Well, that little brain is, what is it? You can fit it into your fist. Couple of liters. Couple of liters of water. It's one and a half kilo average of a gooey, watery jelly. Does that contain you? Does that contain all these thoughts, feelings, and emotion? Is there a motor in it that say, beat my heart, take a breath? Yeah, it's amazing. Now, we have this, that was a question from someone.

How do you actually tell the difference between the dream, the illusion? How you tell the difference? You know, like people in the loony bin, they are locked up because they can't tell the difference. I have the cousin who's got schizophrenia. She sometimes speaks to people who are around, seemingly around, but they're not. But for her, they are. Some things there on this short circuit there on the neuronal connections, and then suddenly the hallucinations. It also happened with the brain damage, with dementia, the hallucinations, lots of things. How can you tell the difference? Well, the non-duality offers not to tell the difference. Just recognize it all as a dream.

So it's to wake up to the fact. Yes. Wake up to the fact this is not actual. That's right, yeah. Instead of telling the difference, comparing, oh, this is more real, this is less real. The functioning is, of course, is preconditioned. We do not advise anyone to take seriously every, like just someone who is insane is impossible anyway. The way brain function, it will function. The recognition comes from the place where the content is recognized as a content. The gradation of illusion are fascinating to explore, but not really essential for the recognition of what's real, which is that which never changes. The real is untangible.

Real is the energy before it becomes form. It's the potentiality before it is lost. You are locked into one or other position. Position of form, I mean. Rohan says, that's beautiful. Cuts to even speak of silence and sound and position has to be taken from which are silence and sound are measured. Yeah, yeah. Nothing you can't, can't grasp it. No, sir. Neither God nor the universe have come to tell you that they have come to tell you. that they have created you. The mind obsessed by the idea of causality invents creation and then wonders who is the creator? The mind itself is the creator. Even this is not quite true for the created and its creator are one.

The mind and the world are not separate. Do understand that what you think to be the world is your own mind. All space and time are in the mind. That's Nisargadatta. Beautiful. No creator, no creation, no creature. Yes. Beautiful, beautifully said. Yeah, he's got the poetic way of saying things. God, what are experiences? Who experiences? The mind, impersonal, personal. There is an identity. There is an identity with the experience. All there is is experiencing. The activity of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. That's how it's happening. The ING gives it something that's going on in the immediacy. To say I experience, you form the concept of an experiencer.

I'm experiencing that or whatever the experience is. The concept of an experiencer is experiencing whatever was happening in the experiencing. So it's divided experiencing into the experiencer and the experience. Now can there be an experiencer without experiencing? And can there be the experiencing, the experience without experiencing? So there can be neither without the experiencing, which is the activity that's going on, the ING on, in the experience. In the immediacy. Without experience. That's the same as there can be no thinker without thinking. There can be no thought without thinking. There can be no feeler without feeling. So the sensations translates into concepts or words or ideas we've got about them.

That's what's dividing it. The concepts, the word. But it's just pure functioning without being divided. Yeah. And I see. I know that this is really difficult to grasp when you ask a simple question, but who is doing it? And you even give options. Personal, impersonal, this. The question who is the wrong question because as Bob just explained, the who is already constructed just for the mind to create duality out of singularity. The simplicity is seeing. Seeing is happening. Yeah. And now the mind comes and say, yeah, but seeing must contain of seer and the seen. No, it doesn't. It doesn't need to. The seeing is there.

But for the, for it to be understood conceptually, it has to come as two seer and the seen. Otherwise, the conceptually, it makes no sense. But experientially it does. In the experience, there is seeing. There is no one who has the seeing or who doesn't. There is no me that starts the seeing. The eyes open automatically because of the certain, probably just different brain waves or whatever different oxygen level in the blood that circulates it. Eyes open. Seeing is already there. I didn't do it. I didn't start the seeing. And whatever within the seeing is already, the content of it is included. Same with experiencing.

Experiencing goes on nonstop. But for the mind to actually make sense of it, it creates the division. Yeah, but there's experience, let's say pain, pleasure or whatever. And there is someone who has that pain or pleasure. But let's say we get rid of the pain or the pleasure. So where is the one who has it? It makes no sense. There is no one who has pain and then no one who doesn't have pain. No, it is just pure pleasure. Pain ink, pain ink or pleasure ink. It's the experience that goes on. It kind of almost feels like it's brushing off the simple question. Okay, but tell me who?

But there isn't anyone. There really isn't. No Beatles without Ringo. No. That was Cameron says. No Beatles without Ringo. That's cool. And we have a few. So Cheryl, thank you, Bob and Kat. Hello, Jane. Enjoying this morning with you. Love and light. Cheryl. Thank you. Good to have you. Who is it? Cheryl. I don't read the last names because it will be too public. Just in case somebody objects to it. And Bob, when you say full stop in the mind, do you mean the thoughts stop? Or just not to listen to them or ignoring them? Or when you say full stop? Well, do what you can.

Step over them. Don't go there. Full stop. Let them go. Whatever time is. Yeah, whatever works. If it works that the thought stops, good. If it works that the listening to thoughts stop, good. Yeah, whatever. Instead of settling down with that thought, ask yourself, what's the next one? Don't give it a chance. Don't give it a chance to settle. Just step over it. Then what's the next one? So you're not fixating on the thought for it can cause more thought. Yeah, the next one. That was when I used to have a guru in India. He was giving me this type of a sadhana, as Bob just explained.

Just sit in quiet and say next. Next to every thought that comes up. The image comes up next. The thought comes up next. In this way, the attention doesn't go and perpetuate the story. It's just next. Acknowledge and next. That's a little practice that I used to do. It doesn't mean that the practice is recommended to anyone or it should be done. Not at all. Life is the ultimate intelligence. If the life draws you to certain behavior, certain practice, certain meditation, just give the credit or blame to it. Give the credit or blame to life. Because the idea that if I will sit 20,000 hours and I will achieve enlightenment is simply ridiculous.

Enlightenment is realization that there is no I to achieve anything. So any practice that I is performing is just part of the delusion of the dream. And now, yeah, that was a good question from Chad. Or you stop the thoughts or you just stop listening to them. Or you're ignoring them. Yeah. Whatever works. Or the other way, let the thoughts be free. When they say thought free and we think we've got to push the thought away or get rid of it. But leave it as it is. Let them go. Yeah. Let them go. Just let them. And thoughts will move on. And you realize that every thought moves on unless it's fixated on.

As soon as you fixate on it, then it grows. Yeah. The story starts. You have another one. Let the thought ride on your breath. Yes. Let it ride out on the breath. Yeah. It's being thought free. You can't rid it of it. But don't keep it locked up. Yes. And you can use an analogy like a rock in the sand. The tide comes in and washes over it and washes back around it and leaves it there. But if that rock was loose, it would carry it out and leave it there. Yeah. And that's the idea. Yeah. And that's the idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the nose would carry it out with it and be gone. Mmm-hmm. Now, the thoughts are not fixated in the head. Mmm-hmm. So if you breathe out, and let the thought go out with the breath, it's not there. Now, what do you do? You inspire when you breathe in. You know, you bring in, you inspire. That when the thought comes in with the breath. Yes. It goes out with the breath. Mmm. Where else would you think it? Mmm-hmm. Say, I think it in my brain. Well, you know, I know. what's your next thought gonna be? That's where all inspiration comes from when you're breathing in thought and when you're expiring and letting it go you're letting it out.

When you breathe that thought out what's there? Have a look at it right now. Breathe that out. Nothing. I can't even think of another thought until I start taking the breath in again. Mukti says Nisargadatta said the world that I see is my own expression. All the information I get about this world is my own information. Yes but not the personal that's getting in this expression or information. No Beatles without Ringo says Cameron and Mukti answers no ring without Beatles. Jane's laughing and Rohan. Nisargadatta on full stop. A quiet mind is all you need. All else will happen rightly once your mind is quiet. And the Sun on rising makes the world active so does self-awareness affect changes in the mind.

In the light of calm and steady self-awareness inner energies wake up and work miracles without any effort on your part. That's a beautiful quote. Beautiful. I used to remember that quite frequently. I had a little page right now with that one and a few others written on it. It was there somewhere. On the sun I'm rising, thanks the world appears. Well, without that arising, wakefulness is like the sun. No wakefulness, where's the thoughts? Yeah. Where's the world? That's right. And close your eyes and the world disappears straight away. Gone. How reliant it is on that transmitter-receiver vehicle. Like without that, the awareness is blind. It can't see.

It needs the eyes. Alvaro, as always a deep appreciation for the teaching. Open heart. Love beyond any words. Thank you. Thank you. Muchas gracias. Beautiful. Yeah. And touch. And you see it. See it coming through here from the different one of you. In different ways or some repeating quotes that I've heard from other ways, which are the truth. Pointing to the truth. So we see it's quite natural and quite simple and quite easy. Yeah, but even picking the right quotes. Yeah. It shows the level of resonance. Yeah. What appeals. Taz, you are not paying attention to what is going on. We are paying attention to the interpretation of what is going on.

That is what Paul Hederman said. Very good. And there is a possibility to pay attention to what is going on. It doesn't have to be interpretation of what is going on. The way you look at the animals, they just respond to the environment. And primarily little children, babies, they also just respond to the environment. And later on, we are conditioned to overlay the story, give priorities, meanings. And part of it is functioning, of course. You know, the fact that we are prioritizing danger and then all the news is full of danger because then it is heard. But still, there is a possibility to actually see.

That overlay of interpretation. Look past it and respond to it. And that is what Paul is pointing out. Yes. You are not paying attention to get out of the interpretation and be with what is. Yeah. Yeah. Gratitude and gratitude and love and love, says Jane. And ditto. Yes, Jane. Thank you. I think we have addressed everything. But the question is, oh, there is another one. Yes. Another one. Mmm. Rohan. But the question is, without interpretation, is anything actually going on? Yeah, that's a good differentiation because now we would have to define what the interpretation is. To which extent, you know, just like the definition of the thought.

Like if your definition of the thought is any image in the mind that makes sense for the functioning, then we can say every animal has thought. Because they can, to a certain extent, interpret and see the images. They recognise the faces or the voices. So that is part of the interpretation. One could say that the interpretation stops when you are unconscious. Or we can say the extra overlay of giving extra meaning and judgement is interpretation. It's a good one to point out. We are only discriminating and interpreting by the words, the vocabulary we have taken up to express an interpretation. Two expressions of the word are different.

Yeah. Yeah, so if you say, like Bob just defined, that interpretation is only the conceptual overlay using words and language. Which means, you know, I'm not interpreting that in this room there is a carpet, there is a sofa and there is a window. That we would call another word. But I would say the carpet is ugly, the sofa is dirty. That is the interpretation. Yeah, but I always like the precision in this one. Because what you point out, Rohan, absolutely, you could actually understand interpretation as any type of a computing which makes sense of the world. And now without interpretation there is nothing going on.

Because if you don't understand the impulses that come through the eyes and ears, then you don't project the world. If the connection in the brain would be the basic interpretation, that basic computing that the brain is performing. Now that is going on, it is just a dropping into the silence. Yeah, and the world disappears. Into the stillness. Now it appears before your eyes, but it is a seeing, no thing, yet it is seen. You are not putting labels on it, you are seeing it. Yeah, again. It is just a pure seeing. Yeah, it depends how deeply you disable the interpreting. Because it could be also disabled by anaesthetics.

It could be disabled by certain substances. And then there is no understanding. You look at your hand and you don't really understand what it is. That's... The computer is just so complicated and so sophisticated and so miraculously functioning that we can very often argue over the words, what they mean. But yeah, I like the word, you cleared it up. Conceptual. Interventional. Interpretation is what can be avoided. That's it. I haven't cleared anything up yet. Yeah, it came up through you. Well, if it clears up, it will clear up. Yeah. Yeah, but it was good. The silence between the questions is the best bit. Yeah, if you...

Yeah, wonderful that you can see it this way. Hmm. And that silence was behind the question also. Underlying the question. Yeah, underlying the question. And Tanya says, I agree. Peace or what is, is easily noticed in the silence. As the song says, my silence sings. Yeah. My emptiness is full. And it really does. The moment you fall in love in silence. The need for the constant chatter and the constant entertainment from that one machinery. When that relaxes. Ah, there is such a sweetness to silence. To other senses also. There's so much beauty in seeing. There's so much appreciation in hearing. Even if there are noises.

If there's few different noises dancing with each other. The noise of the air conditioner or the wind or the heater or the car or the traffic. And they all like a symphony. If there is no judgment that they ugly. There's nothing ugly. That's beyond silence. Because there can be no attention paid to the senses. That's a silence beyond the senses. Hmm. So much effortless clarity, Bob. Jane says. Beautiful. The silence between each word too. Or each thought. Yes, Michael. Hmm. I love that, Bob. If it clears up, it clears up. If it doesn't, it doesn't. If there is trying to answer or help. There is someone with an agenda.

A me doing. Hmm. Well, yeah, if the credit is taken. Because even trying. I see how my cat is trying to get into the food. And doesn't really have an agenda. It's just functioning. But yeah, absolutely. If there is a story of trying to help. The story of trying to help is a yucky story. Because that story assumed that there is someone there suffering needing help. And I am superior. I know. And someone doesn't. It's a yuck. Well, trying is just the same as I try. As I see. Yeah. I think trying is the actual functioning. Hmm. Yeah. There is no trier or no tried that is happening to you.

That's right. Just the trying, the actual functioning, which is just a stream of energy. Hmm. And as I say, some poet says somewhere along the singing streams which live in my memory. It just streams along and it brings a rhythm. That's what it is. It's a sweet sound to it. Hmm. And in that is a joyousness, a happiness, a sense of being well. Well being or being well. And the effortless being also. Yeah. A stream of energy, Mukti says. Yeah. Just a dance. Yeah. Hmm. And like the wind, that energy can be a nice gentle cool breeze. Yeah. It can be a gale. Hmm. It can be a...

It can be a hurricane. All sorts of different ways that stream of energy can pattern, shape and form. Yes. And we have Bill. Hmm. Formlessness is ever present. There is only formlessness. You are formlessness. This is particularly evident on waking up in the morning and then download starts. Me, me, me. We then attempt to explain reality. Impossible. Yeah. Yeah. It is amazing how you wake up and you don't even know what day of the week it is. I remember sometimes we get up in the morning and we don't even get up. We just open our eyes and Bob is asking, what's on for today? And I don't know.

I don't know. What is it? Is it Monday or what is it? Ah, okay. Now the download comes. Yeah. And then we have the next one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, now the download comes up, the preparation for the day. Spontaneously when you wake up, you don't know what you are. At some point you may recognize where you are. But this is ageless, timeless, spaceless sort of a being in which the senses are warming up to start projecting the reality of familiarity of the world we know as we know. Now we have another bill.

As Bob said, letting the thought go with the breath. Another thought doesn't arise until you take your next breath. Yeah, it's amazingly helpful, that little suggestion. Formless is ever-present. There is only formless, Tass is commenting. Stunning. Good on you, Tass. Nothing is seen, and yet it clearly appears in front of your eyes. What a miracle. And you know what it is without putting the label on. Yeah. You know, I'm looking over at the wall, there's a settee there, and the picture's on the wall, and the wall itself. Without labelling them, I'm not seeing one homogenous blob without the label. They're still seen and knowing what it is.

To put the old label on it, you've got to say it's a picture on the wall, or the wall. But you know there's something. There, at the background of those pictures, and the pictures of the self on it. Yeah. You know what everything is. Look outside, you see the same. See what appears to be a canopy over the, in space there, that's seen from the end of space. It could be a blue canopy, or it could be covered in clouds. Yeah. There can be trees, and flowers, and lights, and everything appearing in that space. Mm. And what it is without putting a label on it.

There's movement going by. You can say that's a car. Yeah. That's what it was. Yeah. Even if you don't say it, it's still. Yeah. Yeah. Leonard, humanitarian help, God help his children share you have and will double up. Yeah. I started again. Humanitarian help, God help his children share you have and will double up. Yeah. I started again. Humanitarian help, God help his children share you have and will double up. The. They need help other side of the world, Philippines. Merge and sync. Water I need you start with your voice and heart. Mhm. Yeah, it's hard to read without punctuation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think it is a Google translate.

Yeah. oh yeah yeah so i can read it again maybe you can make sense of it a humanitarian help god help his children share you have and will double in account of the day need help other side of the world philippines merge and sink water i need you start with your voice and heart yeah it's really really hard to make sense of the message if it's just i would imagine there would be three or four sentences here and thank you leonard i believe there is a there is a message nice reminder about exchange of help and start with the voice and heart which yes god helps his children let pure awareness recognize that and that that helps yeah i don't think there is a question here i think it's just a reminder and thank you because it doesn't seem like there is anything to it to to comment on answer rachel the present is pre-sent it is already there when you look that's right yes presensual presensory yes and d when just watching thoughts some are overwhelmingly attractive if we can spot this before becoming them it is critical examination of the thought the best approach yeah it can be handy if you know which thoughts are particularly addictive or attractive or seductive yes thoughts come up yeah they do and some are more attractive than the other i know people who are suffering from the so-called procrastination pattern they are actually avoiding compulsively avoid avoiding unpleasant thoughts and tasks and regretting it later on in the same way some thoughts and tasks are being so attractive that people indulge and get addicted and now okay barbara thoughts come to mind not my mind but the mind of god the body mind organism cannot think i am not the thinker so identification with thoughts falls away sending love hey cat we were both the birthday girls how amazing yes yes happy birthday we've got all the beautiful flowers and yes was uh nice and leonard says emergency emergency yes so uh start with your voice and heart hmm yeah i'm not quite sure what to say what to make of it but there was no question ah okay he is that's Mukti the Philippines in the midst of typhoon much loss of life hmm yeah yeah really sorry so there is some yeah we didn't go through the news today yet I've been working since 7 in the morning sorry for that I mean of course if anyone has any idea or thought or prayer or a way to you know to get the heart coming out of them and to them and helping then of course joining if there is a tragedy happening that's that's what you got to do and if there is a tragedy happening then of course join in if there is a tragedy is brought to the attention because let's face it there is a tragedy happening in almost every family around the world and including the aunt family and a bee family and a bear family but this is not brought to our attention but whatever is brought to our attention if there is an action that can follow let it follow is he any energy instead of a bit more being a gentle breeze into a typhoon that's right yeah yes so yeah they gosh we are going through typhoons we we going through earthquakes and the good thing is that life doesn't die life doesn't die and physical suffering of course is uh is is tragic and emotional and psychological suffering is something that can be addressed and if Leonard is talking about that we are all thoughts are the one Irish police FCnie and something that can seafood or you shouldn't because this is a man of honor worked there and just believe in God and that gives a sense of us to believe in the Christ and if you believe in God and that gives you a sense of relief from the psychological suffering or trust in other people who dying in the holy wars because they believe the seventeen billijen waiting for them that's whatever works they are ways to elevate psychological suffering in the midst of real difficult situations for house it is easy if you call if when God believes in him just don't think about it that's the way to stay sane and if the action is to be addressed if there is a imminent danger happening the body usually masters the cortisol five flight freeze response and the action happens thinking is not that essential when the action is happening and Mukti also says so sorry for your distress Leonardo sending much love yeah yeah and Tanya also sending love to Leonard and all the people of the Philippines absolutely and yes and all the tragedies around the world that are happening also in the in the world of animals and forests and birds and it's it is it is part of life the pain you loss you're not falling asleep and now John David love you Bob and cut always in my heart and detail John yes time mmm Julia says when my father died the most supportive question I could ask myself was if I don't believe that we are bodies can I find where we are separate this is always helped when I felt lost and Autolin says sends love and Barbara the flow is pleasure and pain sending so much love to all yeah it's even not as much pain in loss of your own life but the loss of life of the close ones and dear ones and this is the most distressing thing often in the tragedies like this I would like to see that for the next 20 years so in the case of the other tragedies like this I very much regret my own life and this is the most distressing thing often in the tragedies like this I I was working once on the ship on the Persian Gulf when there was this big tsunami that wiped off Sri Lanka and Thailand.

And, oh my God, there was a man there, hardly spoken English, a big, very dark-skinned man, who could not find the way to figure out if his family was wiped off the planet, the face of Earth, altogether. Everything was showing up that it was. The island on which they were living was underwater. So this is something that has been, I don't know, over ten years ago, and life goes on. But those are things, those are traumas, and those are situations that happen in that waking dream. Yes. And are part of it. The loss. The loss of the dear ones, the loss of the loved ones.

Yes. Yes. And being in danger is part of it. I remember when I was going through loss, and Bob was actually pointing out to me, that was the point where concept of time, because all the suffering is conceptual, and the time is conceptual. The concept of time and space was actually helpful. I was going through loss, and he asked me, have you ever been through loss like this before? And yes, I have. And where is it now? Not quite there. So opening it up as much as possible. And just connecting to that resilience of life. And knowing that it will change. That however difficult it is right now, and it may be tragic, but it's not going to be like this forever.

Even if the loss will be irreversible, it is going to change. And I hope it will change to better. And we have another. Now we have thank you messages. I think we are reaching time. Thank you, dear Bob and Kat, and enjoy your break. Thank you, Bill. And Mukti, thank you, everyone, and love to all. Grateful love to you, Bob and Kat. And Leonard, go and feel the world our home. Heal the world, planet, trees, save animals, end the world. All of it. And the midst of all needs and feel us and help yourself and meets one help you. Yeah, I kind of feel it's hard to grasp the message with no punctuation, but I can feel your energy, Leonard.

It's generally about just waking up to the whole tragic situation in which the planet is. You know, all of it. Gores. Tell him. Tell him. That God is with him or he is with God. Good. If you like to use that term. Yeah, yes. God, which is the presence, they call it Lord's presence or the life's presence, is with you all the time. It cannot. If it moves away, all your problems are over. So that life essence presence is always with you. God is always with you. God is dwelling within you as you. The more open to it you are. The more open. Yes. The more release will come about.

And the more evident it is. That was Muktananda, you said, hey, God is dwelling in you as you. Yeah. So that life's presence, that essence so overlooked is never away. It's always there. And Kathy, understanding with the mind is a world away from the experience. Only then is there is knowing. From this viewpoint, the truth of oneness is always seen. That's exactly right. Yes. Understanding conceptually versus experiencing is the world of a, absolutely a world of a difference. And John David, after my death, my body will be transformed into space. So why not presume it is space now? Nisargadatta Maharaj. That's exactly right. Beautiful. And Tanya, thank you, Bob and Kat and everyone.

So grateful for the clarity expressed beautifully. Love you all. Thank you. And Amarna and Rohan and Julia. Love to you all. And especially Bob and Kat. Thank you for your loving service and big hearts. Oh, thank you, dear. God with us. Us, us. Yeah. That's the sense. That's the sense of presence that I am, which I am the life essence, the energy, the intelligence. That is the godliness. That is the, it is all given. We ask for nothing. All cosmic creation. That's Barbara. And Taz loves the quote, which, who was this quote? John David wrote the quote about the body being nothing and being, Nisargadatta.

And I think that's the quote about the body being returned to space. So why not assume it is already a space, which it is, of course. Thank you, dear. Schaiman says. Thank you, everybody. Yeah. Thank you, everyone. Love to you all. Love to you all. And let the grace that's living in you express naturally and fully. I'm in all bodies, Armanach says. Mm.