Sailor Bob, Kat Adamson - Nonduality

Thanks. Morning everyone. Looks like a nice pleasant day out there. It's a bit cool still. We start off with a couple of questions we got. Oh, you wanted to start some questions? Kick it off for a start. I didn't expect that, sorry. I can't see who it is to say. Acknowledge them out there. Okay, so let's start from there then. Hi everyone. Sorry, I didn't expect to start from questions. We have a question that we got on email from Laurie. The question is, did you meditate to get your understanding? If so, what kind of music did you use? I can say I am not the body, but I don't feel that.

I hear your words about this. All started with the word. And now I can't think myself out of it. And so I need the lightening to strike me to get the understanding. Would it be possible to talk about it on the meetings? Okay, so that's the first question from Laurie. Well, I meditated and chanted using words and music to it, songs to it. Did all these things. But each one, after doing them for a while, they moved me on to something else continually. And if I'd have been smart enough to see in the first place that none of it was necessary, that I was always that presence awareness.

So you can do all these practices if you like. But we missed the point that you are that presence awareness. You are that sat-chit-and-anda, that existence, that consciousness, that loving-to-be, always, already. Everything is that. But we've taken on the belief that we are this separate entity, this person. And of course, trying to grasp it from that point of view, from the conceptual point of view, we can't. Because what can you say about awareness? You can't describe it. It's just another label we put on things. But the fact is, right now, there is a knowing that you are not unaware. So you are, am I unaware?

No, you are aware. Am I knowing? Am I being? I am the beingness. I am the knowing. And I'm happy to be right now. What does the rest of it got to do with that? Now, I can't think myself out of this. No. No. I need the lightning to strike me to get the understanding. The lightning to strike you. You can't think your way out of it. You, as the essence, can't think. Thinking is happening. Have a look. What's your next thought going to be? But we've taken that belief to be, we've taken that on to be a thinker. I think. And that I that thinks is the persona, the conceptual self, the ego, the self-centred, the reference point that we've set up and come to believe when we first learned the words.

So you won't realise, it's a good thing that you realise, you won't be able to think yourself out of it because the answer is not in the mind. Now, if you look back on yourself, where is that thought coming from? Can you pinpoint a point anywhere in your body? So this is where it begins. There's a knowing there, a wearing, if you like, or a knowing that you are. Where is it? And you see it arises. In that emptiness, on that awareness, which is the cognising emptiness. It's the emptiness that's doing the cognising. And it's the emptiness that's forming all those things. So awareness, what we call awareness, is the emptiness, the cognising, negative awareness or emptiness, awareness as they point out in the scripture.

It's emptiness that's forming all these patterns. So you can say they're all awareness. Awareness is that basic space in which they appear in. So you can't think your way out of it at all. And if you see that, if you ask yourself, what's wrong with right now, if I don't think about it, then you realise without the thought, you're not putting the discrimination. You can't say it is or you can't say it isn't. There's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. So there's no height or depth, no past, no future, no present, no pain. We use all those words to discriminate what can not be discriminated.

It's absolutely perfect. One more component to the question. I can say I'm not the body, but I don't feel that. Yes, just saying it. You can say it for the rest of your life. But have a look, investigate. Are you the body? Well, for a start off, you know you're not the body because you say my body and you say my mind. Well, investigate and see what this thing you call the body is. And you realise the body is made up of elements. Air, earth, fire, water, space. They're the elements which form the body. Now separate yourself from those elements. Stop being alive or stop being.

You can't. Take the air. Take one of those elements out of your body, the air. How long would you last without breathing? How long would you last without water? The body is 80% water. The body temperature is the fire. Get off the earth. Get out of space if you can. Separate yourself from the space. You can't without using the concept or the word. So it's all word based up, based. And what's word? Word's nothing but a vibrating pattern of energy also. So it's that intelligence awareness, which I say is a knowing awareness or an intelligence awareness. And it's an activity, movement of energy. It's an intelligence energy.

So you can't say you are not the body, but you can't say you are the body without a concept. But if you pause the thought, if a thought is paused right now, you won't be able to pause the thought, of course. But in the seeing of it, the thoughts will, there will be a little iota. See, you're seeing with thought. Without the thought, what can you say about it? Can you say it's good, bad, pleasant, painful, high, low? You can't. You can't say. What's wrong with right now, if you don't think about it, that pauses there. You can't, as I say, there's nothing wrong with right now.

But there's nothing you can say about it either. You can't say it is, and you can't say it is not. It appears to be, and that's what the feeling is. It's seemingly so. At all, this appearance is seemingly so. And that's a phenomenal manifestation. And the definition of the phenomenon is that which appears to be. So, it's all appearance. But see, we've taken for granted, when we learnt words, and appearance told you you're a little Billy or a little Laurie or whatever your name might have been, or whatever you think you are. That is me. That is I. Instead of being the I being the pure essence.

I am the absolute. Not I am the person. I am the body, mind. And when you say this I is me, that's my self. We've formed a separate self. And all the scriptures will tell you there's only one Atman, there's only one self. And it's self-aware, it's self-seeing, it's self-knowing, it's self-shining. Self-thinking, it's doing. One self expressing, appearing as everything. That's the pure awareness of self. It's vibrating into pattern, shapes and forms. And you are that. But why you take the self to be the person, you're not going to get anywhere. That's the mask of conceptual image. See it. That needs to be recognised. Recognise that.

I get the comment Tanya says, and I think you said that, but it's worthy of repeating. You say my body because you are prior to the body. This thought appeared when you were a child. And you said you know you are not this body because you say my body. Not sure if that thought is true. Yeah, you could say that, although prior is always kind of suggested there is a time and there is no time. But also, yes, when you say my body is the same way as you say my coat. And how, because Laurie was saying that she doesn't feel that. She doesn't feel she is not the body.

But how is it to actually feel the body? How do I feel the coat? I feel the texture. I feel the whatever. There is a feeling there. Same with the body. I don't feel the body unless there is a pain in it. So am I really the body? Or am I the pain or changing sensations that tell me that come from the leg or the arm or something? So the feeling is not who I am because feeling is changing. So if I feel the body here and there occasionally, that's just a passing phenomenon. If I don't feel the body, well, then there is no question of being it.

So this is a good and profound understanding and investigation that needs to be made to actually find the certainty. And the way Bob is illustrating it also, because you started on elements. But the one that really spoke to me when I first heard it was, your body is changing. When you were five year old, there is not one cell in that body that is here now. Not one. And you still feel that five year old was you. It was you. That was me. That was me coming to school on the first day. That was me going through traumatic experiences or events. But none of the cells of the body was present.

So what is that me? That had the small body, then had the bigger body, then there are bodies that are not there. That lose the limbs in the accidents. And the me is still there. That have that body or have that coat. And feels that coat or feels that body. It is not the matter, it is not the feeling or sensation that changes. The feeling of the body is going to be the same. Animals feel their body when they injure them or wound them. It's the understanding or the interpretation of that feeling. So I may still have, when there is a tension, I will feel that tension.

But this is the tension in the costume. It is not me. I am not tense. I am the awareness of tension. So I am not the body. I am the awareness in which the body appears. Because without it, how would I see, hear or even think that I am the body. You really... And that's the pure knowingness. Always and ever fresh being or knowing. The body is always changing also. You cannot be that which changes. That's also from Tanya. And I think we had... I don't know if we exhausted that question. Also Laurie, she was asking about the music with meditation. Yeah, this... Certain people are moved to do certain practices or certain meditations.

Taking credit and hope and hoping that that practice will take you somewhere else or will evoke the lightning is reinforcing the separate self and reinforcing the future. Well, ever it keeps you... Well, ever you... It doesn't keep you. Well, ever you're in the mind and believing the mind is something that is what you are. It's in the... It's pure mind or pure knowing. That's mind without any concepts on it. That's pure awareness. But when you're relating to this body-mind entity, the person, you're not going to get the answer in the mind because the nature of the mind is to vibrate. Vibrates dualistically always into the pairs of opposites.

It's always seemingly splitting, dividing. See the way it functions. Good, bad, high, low, pleasant, painful, this, that, whatever. Always vibrating. And the words or labels we put on it which discriminate it gives us that sense of separation. But it's still always and ever only the one essence, patterning, shaping, forming and experiencing. Experiencing and expressing it as everything. And that's all the manifestation is made up of, things. You and I are things. The tree or the carpet, the flower, the tree, the... the plant, they're all things. And the things are appearing in that space like awareness. Yes, so we have... Shishagiri says, my is ahamkara, identification, and mine is mamakara, attachment.

They're all mine. And then Michelle says, where is the sense of I coming from? Because it is everything... This everything is appearing in nothing, so why do we feel I? Sorry, why do we feel I? Well, it's a sense of vibration. It's the activity of intelligence energy. As I tell you, pointing out how it comes about in the universe, there's a certain sound called, as it expresses as a sort of a bone or a... a sigh or whatever you like to call it. Mm. Mm. Yeah, so if there was no sense of I am, no sense of presence, frankly, there would be nothing, no experiencing, no expression.

There has to be a sense of presence in which that experiencing and expressing appears. So the whole universe, the whole manifested world, the love, the hate, the sadness, the joy, the winter, the summer, the animals, the plants, the air, the sky, the stars, the suns, the... the cells, the thoughts, the feelings, all appear because of that basic screen of presence. And that presence, that open, spacious awareness, is translated by the mind as I. That's just translation. A subtle vibration, yeah. Mm. It's just a translation. This I is not limited to the location of the body. It is unlimited. But because we were conditioned to believe that, this is where the reasoning capacity has been hijacked by the survival instinct to preserve the body.

The narrative aligned with that survival of the body and started projecting that there is an entity, intellectual, conceptual entity, that is called I, that is here but not there. That is only a program, a software, an overlay of the interpretation. Without that interpretation, the I, the presence, doesn't have any limitations. It doesn't limit to this body. Although the defenses of the body and the survival instincts of the body will still look after this body, over the body somewhere in West Africa or on the moon. Or the body of mosquito, for example. Cut. Perfect. Individual mind makes it local. That's Shishagari. Thank you. And Michelle says thank you also.

We have another one, another question coming from Steve. And I have the screenshot of that question somewhere handy. Yes. So the question says, non-conceptual space above one's shoulders is very helpful pointer from Douglas Harding. The sense of separation is not so tight in the visual busted wide open seeing. See that space above the, where the whole window of seeing happens, the whole gaze, you know, that, if you don't conceptualize or make nothing of it, this is just a spacious space of your gaze. And it does, does it stop at the shoulders? No. No. It's everywhere and everywhere. But it moves with the... But that's why Douglas points out to see that there is no, you know, what's true is there.

True. And that's what you're saying is. Yes. So Steve relates to this one. And the question is, all the opposites arise in this seeing aware space. The appearance of any suffering that can arise, no body or mind craves for. Could you both share your experience on this transitory suffering moments? Well, suffering comes about when you're relating to this conceptual I, the believed in persona, the mask. It's only me that can suffer. It's only me that can be unhappy, depressed, guilty. Because it's the labels we put on that I or me. You can't do much with I or me when it's just a sound, a subtle sound, a vibration.

But we say, I'm Bob, the Australian, and I'm good, I'm bad, I'm pleasant, I'm painful. And I put all those concepts on it, and the energy of belief goes into those concepts. Now I've got a conceptual image. Not an empty form, a formless form anymore, but now a conceptual image. I believe the pattern of that image and patterns in the shape of this body, my identity. And that's what I believe I am. I am. And that's where all the suffering comes from. It's only me that suffers. If not relating to that me, to the pure, non-conceptual, ever-fresh presence awareness, when there's no other pattern, shape or form, it hasn't even got any pattern, shape or form, it's just that pure space-like awareness.

Who is there to suffer? And how can they suffer? And then the transitory calamities that come, they don't need to cause the suffering. Like if we look at the kingdom of animals, we look at our cats, occasionally, you know, someone may step on their tail, or they get frightened because of the tomcat from the neighborhood. That is a calamity, but it doesn't cause any conceptualization. It doesn't cause resistance. Oh, it shouldn't have happened. Oh, why did it happen to me? So the pain is there, but there is no suffering due to the pain. Because the suffering due to pain is only a narrative, only interpretation of what's happening, and the resistance to it.

Well, if it's physical pain, that's a sign that all is not well with the body. Do something about it. But if it's psychological pain, relating to the me, it's not necessary. Yeah. And even if the animals are in a situation where their territory is being threatened, they will stand and fight for the territory because of the instincts, but they will have no story about communism or nazism or whatever the story is that we tell ourselves, and we rise and fight for freedom for reasons that are more conceptual than practical. We believe in ideologies, and that's again translation. We do that because we have concepts, mental constructs, about everything.

And they have every form, mental constructs immediately. Instead of saying things, as they are, as that space like, thing that Douglas was talking about, where your head's supposed to be, instead of saying them as they are, we say them with a conceptual image. And that's caused a conflict. Yeah. There will always be conflict going on. Fear, anxiety, stress, guilt, all these things are all psychological suffering. Now if you've got a pain in, a bone in your arm that's broken or bruised, you can pinpoint that. But try and pinpoint this psychological suffering. You'll say it's there in my head. All right, well pinpoint the place you think it is in your head, the point you can see it.

Or it's in my throat, or it's in my heart, or it's in my stomach. When you look and try and pinpoint the thing that that mental suffering is, you won't be able to find a point anywhere. And then you ask yourself, where was I looking at it from? If I think it's in my head, I must be looking at it from someone else to say there. Look back and see to try and find where you're looking at it from. And go back and look at that and you realize there's no static point where you can look at it from psychologically. But again, the physical stuff, you can pinpoint that.

Yeah. Yeah, that is also, Steve is also giving his own thoughts on this one. My thought is be at ease with this. Yeah, beautiful. And I hear you say, leave everything as it is. Be with what is, which is appealing. Well, as you said, what's wrong with right now if you don't conceptualize. Yeah. And if you're leaving it as it is, you must be at ease with it. Yeah. Leave it unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. And see how it changes. Yeah. And I think that's the most important thing. Yeah. And see how it changes of its own because everything does. What was it, that song, Poetry and Best?

Summertime and the living is easy. Yeah. Yeah, so the only thing, what you can do with the, even a psychological suffering is to wake up to it, recognize it. Yeah. See that psychological suffering comes only from the belief in narration. This mechanical, mechanical yapping in the head that is telling you that it shouldn't be this way, that you want something else, or this should end, which is just a narrative. And recognizing that, oh, the attention went to fuel and believe and make real something that is just a narrative. That's awakening. Now you actually recognize that identification. So recognition happens from the point of non-identification. That's the freedom.

But before the pattern breaks, well, it may need a little bit of the recognition repeated in the moment. Yes, we form these habits and reinforce them day in and day out from the time we first started to read and going to school and up till the time we see through this, well, it's seemingly very real. And 99.9% of the population are forming those habits. And we're trying to get out of it. Well, first of all, you have little insights away from it, from the start. And then you look back at the population and the people around you and they suck you back in straight away.

But then you can stand on your own two feet and say instead of them sucking you in, you'll suck them out of it. Standing firm and absolutely certain that you're not the body or not the mind, you are that essence. There is a comment from Rohan, this is so tricky. As Bob says, the questioner is the question and both cancel each other out. Who is asking about where the sense of I comes from? Apart from a thought. We can pinpoint a location where that, can we pinpoint a location where that thought emerges? Yeah, beautiful. You're on the same wavelength as Bob is answering, Rohan is typing and that's so in tune.

Beautiful. A thin line separates a thought from int... or I guess it should be an intuition. Yeah, Shishagiri says, the thin line separates a thought from intuition. Well, intuition may also appear as a thought or it may be just a feeling. Whether it is conceptualized, it will be a thought. Whether it is an impulse to act. Are there any lines? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The real line is only in a conceptual definition, what's one and what's the other. But that's not even a real line, it's just a conceptual line. Jane, fish are jumping and the cotton is high. Daddy rich and your mama's good looking.

So, ghost pretty baby, don't you cry. That's the rest of it. That's the song. Beautiful. I don't understand it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're brilliant with the songs and lyrics and the poet. Hush, not gust. This is what she made the spelling error. Fish are jumping and the cotton is high. Daddy's rich and your mama's good looking. So, hush, not gust. This is what she made the spelling error. Fish are jumping and the cotton is high. Daddy's rich and your mama's good looking. So, hush, not gust. Hush, not gust. Hush, hush, be silent. Pretty baby, don't you cry. Hush. Otelin says hi, and my Polish friend Bogusia is watching, hi.

And are there multiple paths to understanding non-duality? Dino asking. If it's absolute, how many paths there can be? Can't have any absolute. And this is actually unlearning, so dropping all of the conceptual understanding that you have and you're there. You're it. But any path, any path you're on, if you really follow it, take you home. Yeah, even farming a potato and studying on insecticides or different soils or looking at the sun, bringing the life to that soil and sprouting seeds, all of it takes you home because all of it is it. I mean, there are hints in every single piece of the appearance because they're made of the same substance, of the same essence.

You can study astronomy or mathematics and you can arrive at the realization, oh gosh, this is the holographic universe. Everything is fractal, is one and the same. It's not a part of it, it's all of it. It's not a matter of arriving. You never left anywhere to arrive at. Yeah, you only arrive at the conclusion because you might have forgotten. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even though I've forgotten. Yeah, it's the recognition. Seemingly forgotten, yeah. Yeah. You're kind of not even forgotten, you're just buried under a conceptualizing. Yeah. It is always there, but it's just layers and layers of beliefs and ideas that cover it up so thick that the plain basic screen is like a mirror covered with reflections.

Nobody sees the mirror because it's covered with reflections, but it is there. It's always there. And Michelle, I bet you sing that song beautifully, Jane. Yeah. She does. Yeah, I'm sure. I didn't see her singing that particular song, but every other song that I heard her, she sings absolutely beautiful. Yes, I love singing that song. Oh my gosh, you've got to do it for us. You've got to bring a guitar and have a party and sing that song. Well, when the restrictions are down anyway. It's for now. That's it for now, isn't it? That's it for now, yeah. Going to return to the spiel, which you haven't started just yet.

Well, most of the spiel comes up, isn't it? Yes. I give you the audience. I'm listening. It's all what you would say, a natural, effortless, spontaneous happening or occurring, or seemingly happening. And if it's spontaneous, it's got no duration to it, so it's not time bound. It's got no static point. There's no static point in space. You can say this is it. It's everything and the no thing. Nothing can trouble you excepting your own imagination. While we are imaging in. And that's all. And that's all imagination is. Imaging in. Imagine. We image in. And create means we create a mental image, a concept, or a thought, an idea, and put the energy of belief into it and make it seemingly real.

Well, this is so and so. This is that. And this ego or persona, the mind, is the person. The persona, the mask, is a conceptual image we have about ourselves. And we think we are this pattern, shape, and form. This body, mind, entity. We function from that point in the belief that we are that. So that's what we call the self-center, the reference point, or the ego. We're talking about three different things. And all the same thing. That's just the same. It's all the one thing. But you'll see that this ego is a concept. It's only the conceptual image we've formed about it. It's just another concept then.

So we put the energy of belief in it. Now we've got a word that we think is what we are. We are this. And it's functioning through this pattern we call the body, mind, and form. And we're not just thinking about it. We call it the body, mind, entity. So I am this body. I am this mind. You are that in essence. It's real in its essence. There's only the one reality in it. But how it appears in the pattern, shape, and form is unreal. It's Maya. It's illusion. It's a dream. You go have a dream at night. You can be in the mountains. You can see some high hills and walking in these mountains.

When you wake up, where are the mountains? They're gone. Now, you hadn't moved off the bed. Now do you think the mountains were in your head? Think they were really mountains in your head? And you were travelling in them? Yeah, I've got a big head. The head is bigger than the whole universe. Oh, the other things you dream, you're in the ocean. You're somewhere else. Oceanus in me. Just have a look at this manifestation we're in now. Treat it that like it is. This world seems real. But if it's like a waking dream instead of a sleeping dream, where does it come from? When did it begin?

When can it end? When did it come into existence? Did it come into existence? Fresh in you when you woke up this morning, wouldn't it? There are residuals of it, memories of it, we relate to, and it's a seeming continuity. But if we weren't relating to those, it would be just like the dream dream. It disappears. You can remember very little of it in the morning. Don't remember that mountain you were climbing in the morning. It's not there. Don't remember that ship you were sailing on, or the car you were driving, or the woman or man you were with. It wasn't a dream, was it?

Or the things that went on, appearing. But it's the one essence that's patterning, shaping and forming, and appearing as everything. And that implies a wondrous innate intelligence to it all. It's able to pattern, shape and form. In all this marvellous ways it does. Spontaneously, naturally, effortlessly, as everything. And as we mentioned before, it's just as it is. Not what it was, not what it will be, not what we would like it to be, not what we would have it otherwise, or anything at all. It's always as is. And in the words we speak, this is is just another part of the verb to be. So it's the pure being.

In this immediacy, in this spontaneity. When does now begin? Try and grasp it. I'm going to grasp now. Alright, I've got it. It didn't last very long. It disappeared without trying to hold onto it. It was like very slippery. Slipped away and disappeared. And then there's another now immediately there. No duration. Now we see that time is a mental concept. Got a question? No, I've got a comment. I just read the comments. This is from Shishagiri. Pan Chaddasi says, Intuition is non-sensory. It is called a direct experience. Though eventually all dependent realities that which is expressed as conceptualization. Without conceptualizing we cannot communicate. Exactly. Yeah.

Without conceptualizing you can't communicate. I mean you can still do the sign language, or you can still kind of, you know, scream like animals when you are fearful, or wink like animals. Wink when you want to flirt. But yes, conceptualizing. Yeah. But you look around the room and look at everything in the room without putting the concept on it, or the label, and you realize everything is registered. Just as it is. In the immediacy. It's not one homogenous mass you see. Yeah. It's able to register it in different pattern shapes and forms. Yeah. Same as animals. They don't conceptualize or label things. They don't have any names for anything.

And they still don't bump into the wall. They can still see, register everything. And that computer is going to make a calculations how to move, how to move the body about. Yeah. Registering is one thing, and conceptualizing is yet another thing. The labeling, naming, and claiming. So it's the same life essence, it's in every, every sentient thing. It's that same livingness, same life. And when you look at yourself, what are you? Are you the body? Are you the mind? Or are you the life that animates, expresses through it? And to realize you are that life, because you can, if that body goes out, that life goes out of that body, you've got a corpse.

It's going to break down and rot without the animating. And that's the way of the imagination, keeping it going, the sentient. And that's, that's a brilliant pointer. That's a beautiful pointer. But it still doesn't mean that the, the corpse is not made of life. It is. But it is just a really good pointer. And we have a comment from Michael. Oh, it's a question. What makes the waking dream seem like it continues each day? If just memories, can I wake up tomorrow for a world of love, no suffering? Much love to that. Well, from the start of, Michael, there's no tomorrow. Good one. Wake up right now.

Yes, to the world of love. And the world of no suffering. And life, that life, that we just said disappears, that is love. And that's what I tell you in the scriptures, they say, God is love, or love is God. We've taken love as another word or label we put onto something separate, personal love, which has an opposite to it, hate. But life, which is love, just, always just produces more life. Out of life, more life comes. There's no room for death in it whatsoever. The death only seemingly happens in the pattern, shapes and forms it expresses through. The patterns break down. But what breaks down, what's left of them, goes back into that life essence again.

And it's not reincarnation, there's not a person that was ever incarnated in the first place. It's just the spontaneous animation, functioning. Life itself is incarnating in every shape and every form and every pattern. Ever fresh and ever new. It's always fresh and new because it's spontaneous. Michel, is the thinking, like another sense that attributes a label and a value to what is first registered by other senses? Sorry, I meant is the conceptual thinking. Just like another sense. Yeah, in Buddhism they say we have six senses, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, thinking. Yeah, see, all the other senses, the seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, create the world, the sense of space.

But the thinking, the interpreting, placing it somewhere in the time, it creates the time. So the world without thinking is the world without time. It's a timeless moment now, but the space to exist. And the world without senses, like when you're unconscious, there is no world, there is no space, there is no time. So for the time-space to exist, you need five bodily senses to create space and the thinking to create time. And now it gives it a context. Now it places the world under some sense, the world under some seeming scale. It gives it a story. The conceptual thinking that interprets the sensory information is our whole experience of time-space.

And those five senses are functioning, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, thinking. But when we bring the eye into it, the conceptual eye, I think, we form the thinker. And what's your next thought going to be right now? I don't really know. Thoughts arise, they come up. And you say, I think. You've formed a thinker, a subject. Now any subject has to have an object. That's how it vibrates. I think this thought. And the thought that's happening in thinking becomes this... The I think becomes the subject and the thought itself becomes the object. The other sense I'm seeing is seeing right now, I see. I see becomes the subject and what's seen becomes the object.

But there's pure seeing. Pure seeing and registering everything right in the moment. Tasting, touching, smelling, breathing, heart beating. Yes, even if there is a big context or the story. Like, you know, Bob also remembers there is past memories available. There are... The world is as it appears to you. It's only the overlay of translating or relating, interpreting as something relevant to the me. That one is questioned. So now all the intellectual capacities, reasoning capacities, thinking, problem solving, everything. I mean, how many functions did you have on this neuropsych test? He's got top average or above average functioning. All above average because... Because they stopped testing people over 90.

All that superior, supreme activities, brain activities are available without having the I related to. So it is conceptual thinking creates the world of meaning and the world of future and past and the world of context and all those beautiful, beautiful worlds. And you can see them, you can marvel at them, you can enjoy them, but you don't believe them real. Because there is no relating that gives it a heaviness. There is no me here versus the world out there that are in conflict. So it is just one flow. That makes it incredible. Now we have the question from Alvaro. What is depression? What is depression?

Depression. Depression? Yeah. Someone is depressed. I assume this is the depression, the psychological, not the geographical depression. The sense of acute resistance to what is. The sadness? Yeah. The... Yeah, almost a sense of despair. The resistance to the point of... Yeah, it's intense suffering. It's heartbreaking. Just another sensation. Yeah. But it comes with the story because the physical component of depression will be a vibration. It will be probably a closed, contracted chest. Maybe a lump in the throat. Maybe a tearing eyes. Depression often have the pattern, you know, the crazy eight, the pattern of anger and the pattern of sadness that are interchanging. But those are labels.

On this level of sensation, on the physical component... The heaviness of heart. Yeah. Heaviness, contraction, and all sorts of different vibrations that we label. We give it a label which we actualize them, give them seriousness and meaning and belief when we label, name them. But what is another component of that? Without it, the depression wouldn't really be possible. It's the story. I'm not good enough and I'm worthy. It's... Like, life is not worth living or... All sorts of different, will be individual sort of stories that we attach meaning and validity. We believe in the story and we label the vibration in the body and that is causing that acute suffering, horrible suffering.

Yeah. Everything vibrates in the opposite. So the good or the pleasant's there, then it vibrates into, vibrates into opposite, which could be depression, fear, anxiety, stress. How do you know? Because we've had the sensation before. That's all feeling is, is a sensation. We had the sensation before and we labeled it with depression or fear or anger, with the words we learned from our parents and the... So every time that's seemingly same, even though it's fresh and new, sensation comes up. We load ourselves down with all the previous sensations. Instead of not as it was in the first place, now it becomes overloaded. That's right. And it can seemingly be worse every time.

And if it's worse, it's heavy, like a heavy cloud, it'll hang around for a while. But realize that leaving it as it is, it's free to move along. And when we're talking about four to five senses, that was one of the sayings in the script, some of the scriptures, but it's not. Be utterly awake with the five senses wide open. That means when you're totally alert to the seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, thinking, you're awake to them all. And be utterly open because when we... As it is with those senses, when we've got one, we fixate on it to the exclusion of the other, not realizing those five senses, they're ever changing and ever open to change and move around.

Leave them open and they've got a chance to flip from one to the other. While we fixate it on, we keep it there. Be utterly awake with the five senses wide open and be utterly open with unfixated awareness. So now if you're seeing something and you're loading the old label on, if you're open to it, it might be something else going on, a feeling or a tasting or something. It'll open you up even more. But you're totally with life then. When you're staying in the one, you're missing out on what's going on around you because there's always constant change. Everything is transient, constantly changing. But if you're wide open to it all, all those senses are there, they're open, instead of being blocked off by the one you're fixating on, they're open to be utilized.

And while you're thinking this, you might be seeing something else and say, oh, that's joyful. That other one was sad. You know, you might, you'll flip to that one then. Beauty. That'll help get you out of the old one. That is so beautiful. Yeah, I didn't hear you say it this way before. What a way out of suffering. To just have the senses wide open. And then there is inevitably, when you see the darkness, you will see the light because all of it is available. It's just a story that filters out the light and keeps the darkness. And also, just a disclaimer, when Bob says, leave it as it is, it doesn't mean not to go and seek help because leaving it as it is means you are utterly open.

And if the idea comes to investigate biological reasons for depression, leave it as it is. Follow the idea. You see the body going to the computer, learning about the fermented stuff that causes the serotonin level to grow in the stomach. Wonderful. Leave it as it is and see how the body looks after itself. Yes. When we don't leave it as it is, we say, well, we want to try to change it. Oh, I'll do this and do that and blah, blah, blah. You're not given a chance to move on that. That's right. It's exciting on that. Sometimes, leaving everything as it is and being utterly open means actually hearing the invitation for the help or for therapy or for whatever.

It's just being completely open and following that movement rather than shutting everything down with the narrative and sticking to that terrible darkness, which, again, is nobody's doer of even that. It's just to remind that there are possibilities to really stay open, not locked down in one of the senses which is usually thinking, but just relax out of that confinement. And there is a comment from Shishagari. It is mentioned in the Brahma Sutra that the only thing that separates sleeping and waking, so waking is more of a mirage than a dream. Yeah? And now, Bill, a thought or idea or a memory cannot be applied to this immediacy.

The immediacy has no duration. Try and apply a thought or idea to this obvious and ever-present immediacy. It evaporates instantly. The actual resting in this results in non-conceptual awareness. The very act of knowing this is the essence of freedom. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, that's good, Bill. Beautiful, yeah. And if thought or image or memory appears in that non-conceptual awareness, it's not excluded. Everything. And who can try to change it, anyway? No, no. Everything appears in the immediacy. It's hard to apply thought to it because nobody applies thoughts. But thoughts are rising and subsiding just like everything else, just like sounds and sights and smells and tastes, all of it.

Michel, it can be from wanting something that is not, which stems from a separate sense of me. Beautiful. I think that was regarding the depression, that depression is a resistance or it's wanting something that is not. Yeah. Yes, that's it, which stems from separate sense of me. Absolutely. Me that is always knows better than God, knows better than life. What should be, how should be. Yeah. Amazing arrogance of that imagined entity. Now, Joe. I love it. Thank you, Bob and Kat. And Alvaro says, thank you. It was helpful. Thank you. I hope it's not your case, but yeah, be open for any help that may come from within and without because relaxing out of any fixed position, it's the freedom, it's increasing freedom.

And Caroline, love that wide open. Yeah. Yeah. That's so lovable, the wide open. Yeah, that's right. Not the narrow opening, but open up. Yeah, complete boundaryless, space-like. And Michel, so much wisdom. It's incredible. Beautiful. Yeah. See how much comes from you, through you. It is all innate, it is everywhere. It is in farming a potato, really, in everything. Can't be too far away, is it for now? I'm adding all the time. Thank you, darling. I add on this, depression is quite often, from what I've gathered being here around Bob for a few years, it's a good prerequisite to questioning, to start questioning. when suffering gets so acute that you just so sick of it that you can't take anymore and you lose all your hope that is a point where it even there was even described by one of the scientists I was listening to you a scientist who was actually explaining the amygdalas and the overload of the of the suffering that causes the almost a spark going to the other chemistry of the brain and and inducing absolute bliss so I don't really you know science is another belief system just like everything else in the whole manifested world is just all what we agreed to believe and therefore create as reality but yeah I've seen quite a few situations my own included when the point of a deep devastation was the point when when there was an opening just that that close so there's nothing either good or bad from this point now when I'm looking back at that situation five years ago when I was on the point of devastation I can't be grateful enough it's just a story because it's only this moment now five years ago it's just a story but it's a beautiful story I love every bit of that story and I love the depression that was included and I love the devastation and the pain and how this pain came about and and all of it and this is very often a perspective of of people who went through the calamities and somehow the resilience were present within them and because of that resilience they look back at life and that which was hardest is the most valuable the tallest mountains they climb the highest mountains they climbed the more joy and and I don't know even a sense of pride which is probably not the best but it's a judgment anyway the childbirth painful childbirth or emerging from the abusive relationship and taking the lessons out of it life is in the magnificent play everything is beautiful the good and the bad the pleasant and the painful viewed from the perspective from that absolute perspective in which nothing is absolute and the pain is the most beautiful and the pain is the most beautiful and the pain is the most beautiful and the pain is the most beautiful and the pain is the most beautiful absolute the the momentary suffering the passing suffering is not absolute because even depression even a long dark depression is changing there is a change within the depression depressive pattern and I don't know that much about depression I didn't have that much of it in my life I had a different survival strategy but I did have enough and I lost my dearest friend to it who committed suicide so watching the video I was very very happy and I was very very happy to be able to share with you but watching the depression pattern is also being vigilant and being alert to the changes within as I mentioned before even the crazy eight the the anger sadness you know when you're sick of being sad and self-pity you get rage towards the life and everything that's a surge of energy when you just wanna and then again you exhaust yourself with that outburst and the sadness and shame and guilt and all that keeps in but they're constantly changing and they are all changing and they're changing and they're changing and they're constantly changing and they're constantly changing and they're constantly changing and they're all changing and they're all changing stories.

They are all stories of love calling out, come on, I do want, I need to be seen, I need to be acknowledged, I have so low self-esteem that someone else has to show me who I am, how beautiful I am. I need the reflection. And this reflection is available. The lower you are, the ego that is self-destructive, conceptual image, well, that is not even real. If you see through it, the reflection of who you really are is all the world outside you, all the seemingly outside you, because nothing's outside. Like Bob was mentioning, Douglas Harding, with dreaming, do you have the mountains and the oceans inside your head?

Hmm. Everything's inside of you. And this is not to, you know, I'm deeply, deeply sore and moved for anyone that suffers, particularly a depression which can go suicidal. And, oh, I lost one dear girlfriend to it, but two others I nearly lost. They were suicidal for years, and that was heart-wrecking. The amount of studies I did to help them, before I woke up to the fact that I can't fix anyone. Oh, my God. Yeah, that's, oh, we got some more comments. Mukti, how can this thinking think a thinker into existence? Beautiful question. Well, not only the thinking it can't think a thinker into existence, but the belief that there's a thinker in existence.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The thinking, well, thinking is not the doer, it's just pure functioning. But yes, the arise, the split through the interpreting services, that biocomputer, it goes with the language. When the language is introduced in the language, that's split already, and that presumption of the doer of the deeds, the thinker of the thought, is completely ingrained. As far as we know, the language of birds, which is a beautiful language, does not contain that presumptuous idea of the say are, at least they don't have that neural networks in the brain. The thinking going on without questioning it and repeating the words, and that, we believe there is a thinker.

Yeah. That word belief is coming to it again. Look at that, an unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason. We haven't questioned the belief that we are this entity. When you do it, it'll fall apart. Is there a person there? Is there an entity or an individual there? Is there anything separate? Look out there in nature. As is the earth separate from the sky. Heaven and earth are set infinitely apart by thinking. But heaven can space the earth. Can the earth ever get outside of space? Which space is the heavens? What they call the heavens. They're not apart. Shakespeare said nothing is either good or bad.

Shakespeare's not going to tell you nothing can trouble you except your own imagination. It's concepts or thought that divide us all. And that's the nature of thinking. It's constantly dividing. Good, bad, pleasant, painful, happy, sad, loving, hating. Subtitles by the Amara.org community positive, negative, experiencing, experience. Vibrating dualistically. That's what any movement is, a vibration. Somewhat of a movement. Chah, if everything is a dream, then we must be reality even though we don't know what we are. That's a nice insight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the dream happens in the reality of the being that you are, which even though you can't know what you are because you are it.

Yeah. Beautiful. It's recognizing true nature. Yeah. You are. Darren, Vajra in Sanskrit means both hard like diamond and fleetingly impermanent like a lightning flash. What? Vajra in Sanskrit means both hard like a diamond and fleetingly impermanent like a lightning flash when i try to hold on to the diamond moment which is no more i may become depressed oh that's gorgeous that's beautiful yeah holding to impermanence that that is a great cause of suffering it may cause depression or any other form of suffering now god so much violence inside with obsession to get pleasure versus suffering might be yeah that's uh yeah that's true that's also a conditioning the violence obsession to get pleasure versus suffering yeah always wanting what is not that idea that there is a me who is in charge and can change the course of things and and it has to strive for pleasure striving for pleasure or striving for survival is part of the functioning but the narrative that overlays that create you know nazism communism inquisition all of it and just multiply the suffering yeah it's all because we're taking on the belief again that we're separate that's right just having the fact you are the absolute the absolute isn't though it's appearing as the very many there's never to be divided never separated at all only seemingly so and having got this concept about yourself and a concept about others who can ever be superior to you without the concept yeah who can ever be inferior to you without the concept and what would you want the other person people if it would live from that point of view then there would be no need for wars or anything at all but then we'd probably become overpopulated or older they are and so things but there are doubters working out as it should yes but so when you not recognize that and take a point of view from the individual standpoint i think you're going to change the world you're going to suffer be open to it and see where it takes you it falls into place You've got another comment from Nicholas.

I just see myself lost so deep in thoughts. But thank you Bob and Kat. Just by listening you give me more strength to let things be their own way. Good. Yeah, let things be their own way. Everything resolves itself. Life is like a river. It always finds the least resistance one could say. Yes. Yes, it does. Yeah, I was actually writing about this beautiful analogy that Bob uses on the life. Life and the taking a bucket of water out of the river and putting it on the bank and relating to it. So that stinky bucket of water which is dead after a few days it will just keep going.

And life, the river, flows merrily along. Through the sandy banks, through the cliffs and the rapids. Sometimes it's very, very slow, almost stagnant. But then it goes through the waterfalls and it is alive. And a bucket of water far away there, how can it catch up with life? How can that conceptual image, the me that lives in the past, made of the past, made of past memories, how can it keep up with life? Whilst when the water, the river, the water is free. It's alive. It's alive. It's free. The life is free. The bodies, the thinking, all of it joins that flow. And everything is fresh and new and easy.

Like Nicholas says, let things be their own way. Sally, it is incredible that what I think I am, I am not. And how the belief is so experienced, so completely and reflected back by the way I am. And how the belief is so experienced, so completely and reflected back by the way I am. And how the belief is so experienced, so completely and reflected back by the way I am. So I am not the only one. There's so many things that I can do that are going to change the world. Yeah. It is amazing. Exactly. It is amazing. The world around you reinforces it. Yes.

And me. Yeah, the same thing happened, you know, with the belief of flat earth. A few hundred years ago, there was no question about it and the whole world made that flat earth to be experienced. Well, we can still kind of say we experienced the earth flat. And that was a belief that was, yeah. Well, I still know people who believe in the flat earth, and they say, well, it's not going to change. who believe in different beings, you know, angels or reptilians or others, and they don't say this is a belief. No, it's true, it's reality, that's what it is. That's the power of belief, unquestioned acceptance.

It has been accepted as fact. So now we accepted that there is a little human there as fact. Of course there is a little human, of course I'm not the body, that human owns the body, but this human is me. And it's beautiful what you say, Sally, what I think I am, I am not. See, this is really a really great pointer and a great help to see what you think you are, you are, you are not. What were you thinking you were when you were seven year old? A good little girl or not very good little girl? Perhaps you don't think you're a little girl anymore.

So that has proven wrong. And especially I love when Bob uses that analogy from his own past of the addiction. The mind was telling him what he believed to be true, can't live without the alcohol, he can't live without the cigarette. That's proven wrong too. And it was so believed. So whatever you think you are today, whatever you thought you were a week ago, whatever you thought, you know, like how much you think what we are. What somebody thought when he was 18. Mobile phone number like, I have a completely different self image than I was driving a ship on the bridge. I was something else than, when I was fighting with my ex husband, and then I was dealing with my father.

That was completely different self image, the different role that I was playing. I thought I was this, I was the woman or I was the officer, I was the wife, and none of it is who I am. That was just a temporary costume. So what, I'm not. No, I'm not any of my roles, I'm not any of my costumes, because they are all changing. What I am never changes. So what I am is the space in which that seven-year-old, that officer, that wife, that whatever appears and disappears. All the roles are playing out in the awareness that I am. Otherwise, how would I even know, switching from one role to another, that I was in the front one?

There has to be something prior to those costumes, so I can say they are all mine, they are all my memories. That's again only a pointer, because they are also just a story. And Monica says, so good to see you. And now, Nasr. Yeah, it's good to see you. He says it's good to see you too. Who is it? Nasr. Ah. And Rohan. In the Gita, Krishna, Krishna says, detach from the attachment to suffering. We keep our suffering going with thought after thought. If only we full stop, like Bob always says, the suffering can fall away. Yeah, attachment to suffering, how much identity we draw from our suffering.

And something, suffering means it's going on. Right now, yeah. Yeah. But even the story of the abuse, or story of trauma, or story of abandonment, or it always happens to me, or this happened when I was a child. Now this becomes the costume that I'm wearing and not letting go and keeping it in the memory, this is me. Ah, the identification takes so much energy to hold onto. Yes. But of course, because it's habitual, we don't even know that energy is being invested. It is only clear and apparent when it's, when the identification is not sustained and drops off and now you don't know who you are.

The past is not really yours, it's just like a past life of somebody else. It's there, but it's not really, it has nothing to do with what you are. It's just the, it's the images. Hmm. Story ends. Story ends. And at the story end there's no... Hmm. Yeah, but I like this, it's beautiful what you say, Rohan, attachment to suffering. Yeah, why don't you let go and, not that there is you who can. Would you like a glass of water? I might have to. Yeah, okay. Oh, yeah. The ING on it means it's going on right now. What's wrong with right now if you don't think about it?

Full stop. Finished. Yeah. Thank you, it was great. Carolyn, that analogy of stale water in a bucket, not the flowing river, reminds me of depression, trying to hold onto all those thoughts and feelings, exhausting the very depleting. Yeah, that is actually in my... And recognizing what's going on yourself, you're able to do something about it. Yeah. Hmm. And we don't realize what's going on and we don't realize what's happening. Yeah. And Monica says, thank you, you're so helpful. And Jane, when we have fixed idea about any person, place, or things, that is resistance. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Any fixed idea is just a story. And if that idea is believed, well, that's already a bucket of water taken out of the river.

And resistance to what is. Yeah. Yeah. Even when it's resistance to what is, you're not allowing the is-ness. Hmm. Unimpeded. Yeah, and also this brilliant computer is so magnificent, always open to update the image of reality, moment to moment, how quickly you update your image. Today, you may think that someone loves you and after a moment, they stab you a couple of times in the back and your image gets updated, updated, updated, updated. But when we have fixed idea, we're able to do that. Yeah. And it's not necessarily outdated. But when we hold onto the old idea without bringing or getting that updates, the survival instinct can't work properly, which is a shame.

And Monica says, the energy is so heavy. Good point. Yeah. That's it for now. Yep. I think I've gone through all. Yeah. We can't hear them. Have they got any input in? No. No. No. No. Yeah, we can see it and it's quiet. It's easy to drop into the no-thingness. Yes. Where before it was hard to even get a glimpse of it. That's true, yeah. Now sometimes you've got to kick yourself to start up again. And we basically relax into the being, into the is-ness. That's it, relaxing out of the fixed ideas, out of all the conceptual overlay, out of the inner talk that is in the head, and the relating.

Those all are superimposed on that open, wide open space of being. So relaxing out of that superimposition coming from the narratives, from interpretation, from beliefs, relaxing back out of the thinking into just plain being. That creates the glimpses. And eventually that, that's just... Each time you get a glimpse of it, the easier it is to see it again. That's it, yeah. Because you know where to go, where the silence and stillness is. And it's harder to believe in the actuality of the story. And you recognise you don't, there's no need, no one to try, and sort of no need for any trying. Yeah. It's just happening spontaneously.

Like Laurie was saying in the beginning, she can't think herself out of it. Yeah. No. The thinking is not the way. The think... Out of the thinking is the way. Like what was the... Xin Xin Min saying, the way is beyond language. Yeah. Out of thinking. So to think oneself out of the... out of the identification is just more of the thinking. More of the thinking. Like Bob is saying, what way is out of the mind. Every direction you always look is in thinking. Yeah. Out of the mindful, stop. End of story. When you are already home, when you are already on the North Pole or South Pole, you can't go any further north.

Every direction you move, you move away from the truth, from home. So stop. Charlie. Ever perfect, ever true. Both of you love you. Oh, beautiful. Even a little rim. Charlie. Yes. And Monica says, five years of therapy doesn't work. And Dee says, someone mentioned violence before in relation to our thoughts and feelings. It seems an apt word to assist in nothing that normal thinking is often a harsh response to what is. Hmm. As Bob says, no one to be, nowhere to go, and nothing to see. Hmm. Yeah. I like what Dee also says. There is the thoughts, the interpretation is so often violent, which means judgmental.

There is a harsh judgment involved because there is a me involved that wants something else. So that is resistance to the reality. There is very little appreciation when that resistance comes. And Tanya says, exactly Rohan. Not yet. As Bob says, no one to be, nowhere to go, and nothing to see. Nothing to do, nothing to say. Yeah. I guess we nearly, we nearly at the time, that is because, yeah, we don't really have much of a input anymore. Mm-hmm. Getting pretty close to finish. Hmm. Yeah. So we have a few more questions. Yeah. Okay. Yes, so if anyone has any question or sharing or last word to say then I'll read it.

Remind yourself. That's all. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Renew your mind by reminding yourself, I am that already. Yeah, reminding to go out of the mind. And from that space of reminding the no mind, mind can operate and function. And it's a wondrous machinery, it's fantastic. But then when the violent like this says, the violent judgmental thoughts that argue with the reality, when they show up on that space which is already recognized and which is already found to be home, that's not a problem. We have judgmental thoughts coming in. When they come up we usually express them and laugh. They're funny. Yeah, the violence is conflict, resistance, conflict and disease.

Yeah. When you don't believe, everything's light. If I was expressing the judgmental thoughts and I was a believer of them, they would induce all sorts of emotions and feelings and actions. But if the thoughts come but they're not being taken seriously, they just... Yes, you don't believe the sky is blue anymore. Yeah. That would appear to be so. And you would go out and acknowledge that. Look at the beautiful blue sky. Same with the blue sea. Water in a mirage. All these metaphors they use to point it out or analogies. What we, you know, see everything just as it is. Unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. Tanya says to Caroline, the thought of needing to fix it seemingly keeps it there.

Yeah. Yeah, if you needed to fix it, you already made it real. You already made it a problem. That's kind of reassuring it. Rohan says, thanks, Bob and Katz. And Sha, I am that. You are that. We are that. Exactly. That is. That is. That is that. Much appreciation, beautiful pointers. Love you from Costa Rica. That's Alvaro. Thank you. And Theodore, best love and wishes from Orlando. Thank you. And Tanya, no questions, but lots of gratitude and lots of love for Bob and Katz and everyone here. Love you all. Thank you for another beautiful meeting. You are on fire as always, Bob and Katz, and some great sharing from all.

Yes. Yes, yeah, that's, yeah, beautiful. That's beautiful you said. That's... It's there in each and every one of you. It is there in everyone. That's right. It's nowhere that it is not. Okay, I'll have to go then too. Okay, so thank you everyone. Lots of love. Love you.