Zoom meeting 22 Sept 2020, Sailor Bob and friends

Only aware, only this. And that's another word people are always asking about love. Love is light. What light is, life is. Not all about love. Love is light. Light is love. Love is love. Love is life. Everything is that life and it's self-shining. So that light shines of itself like the sun is ever fresh and self-shining. And the warmth of the radiation of the sun warms the earth and everything on it. Kill it also. That love of God. That love of God. That love of being radiates and expresses through each and every one of you is what you really are, what you actually are. And thought has come into it.

Thought has come into it and we take the word or the thought to be real. But even as I say, it's expressed in many words. They can call it God, they can call it life, call it love, call it being, call it bliss. All different labels pointing to the same thing. And you know what, everything's a little bit different. There's an instruction every day in the Bible. you and I and everything, as I say, is all that. That is all there is. That radiance, that light, that love. And does the light know darkness? The real life can't know darkness. The thing that's singly rescued we call mind, I thought.

And we try to find the answer in the mind. And we look in the mind. But do you look in the darkness for light? You won't find it there until the light is recognized that it is your natural state. And that's what they tell you in the scriptures, let your light so shine before men that they may see the good works and glorify the Father, which is the light of being. Glorify your Father which is in heaven. You get these, some of these scriptural statements take on a different meaning instead of the whole thing we've labeled on with and believe in when you look into them.

And Christ says, I am the light of the world. He wasn't talking about himself. He's talking about that sense of presence, the light of beingness, the light of life. And light, another name for light is energy. You've got electricity in the room there with all sorts of different lights in the room. And each light has its own purpose. And that's what we're talking about. And that's why there's probably different globes of different strengths in it. And it's all that one energy coming from the one generator that's expressing through everything. And that's another word for it, light, energy. That's why I don't use the term God.

I use the term intelligence energy. That light, that radiance is intelligence, pure intelligence, not your intellects. The intelligence is able to pattern, express, and form and shape all this manifestation. And that manifestation is appearance only. And it's all appearing in that light. Can it appear in the darkness? It can't. Darkness obscures. And what have we taken on? We've taken on the darkness of belief, believing in the word, the concept, which you know that the light, you know there is energy in that pattern they call you. It's a fusion of energy. And that energy is intelligence. It's energy, light or life that's breathing you. It's breathing your heart.

It's growing your hair and your fingernails, digesting your food. It's put this, it's expressing through this pattern we call our body. Can we like that, treat that like a globe? Only a certain amount of what is in it. Rampage, whatever you like to call it. Too much and you'll blow it out. Not enough and you'll feel weak and miserable. And you're not stopping it from happening. There's a blockage somewhere. A blockage in the beliefs we've taken on. We've taken on the concepts or words. And let's stop blocking it. Light is energy. Vibration. And isn't your breath a vibration? Isn't your heart beating a vibration? Growing, digesting food.

It's all that vibrating intelligence energy. And we talk about intellect. We take the words. We take the words. We take the words. We take the words. We've learned and thinking, use it as intellect instead of seeing the natural innate intelligence of the. Intelligence is not the intellect. You and I have different intellects. Some of you have got better intellects than I have. Some of you are not so good. And so there can be seeming indifference in it. The same light of intelligence or knowing is suffusing us from the smallest minutest particle to the greatest particle. a galaxy or sky or whatever further part of the manifestation of the universe and shining through it all a soft shining ever fresh presence awareness or as they put another way they put it in wasn't non-conceptual ever fresh presence without any concepts it shines in its fullness and without any concepts they call it no mind pure mind not that the mind has disappeared but that which we call is pure it's no mind it's not something it's the innate intelligence of awareness in which everything appears patterned expresses itself shining through the mind and shines into different pattern shapes and forms words labels concepts images and forms images everything is that what do we do when we take believe that we are this person is separate in me we have seemingly separated ourselves separated ourselves from the silk not inseparable divided ourselves from the indivisible that's what they call it in all the scriptures is indivisible it's inseparable it's one without a second it's non-dual and then we get locked into the arguments for duality and non-jewish and all these other things not realizing what's pointing to it's all the one essence that's never changed and it's no thing no thing whatsoever all this manifestation is made of things patterns shapes and forms are things but no thing appearing or vibrating like a wave is a vibration on the ocean is it anything ever other than the ocean or water is it ever separate from the ocean or the water if the water if the ocean is made up of water and water is the wave and the ocean can separate itself can you separate water from water you can't still only the water so everything is that that includes you me and everything else that's what we need to recognize that's what we need to recognize we need to recognize the facets of clicked itself is would be 투 The same sages, saviours and seers are the ones that have understood this and pointed it out in these traditions.

What they were pointing to was the truth because they knew the truth and were free of the belief in seeing separately. They pointed out, have a listen to what they're saying and recognise what they're saying. And still saying to this day in different patterns, shapes and forms. They call it a cognising, not that we don't recognise it, we're cognising it, but the emptiness itself, that intelligence energy has the capacity of knowing or cognising. The innate intelligence energy, a vibrating pattern of knowing and cognising. And they made the statement then, the Buddha made the statement then that emptiness is a swarm. You and I are patterns, shapes and forms.

So all we are is that emptiness appearing as different. And look at these. These patterns, shapes and forms. They are the lights, that light of life is expressing through each and every pattern. Light's expressing through the stars, the moon and everything else. And that emptiness is form and the form can be nothing other than the emptiness. And these, those forms are like the bowls, got different wattages, different powers in them. And through that shining light, it can express some thoughts, feelings, emotions, emotions, and feelings. And through that shining light, it can express some thoughts, feelings, emotions, emotions, and feelings. And look at the form it's expressing through the body.

And body made up of amazing intelligence energy. It's got the eyes, the ears, the heart, the lungs, the throat, the voice box, kidneys, liver, all these organs. The life's diffusing through it, brain, and the labelling it to express in all these different words, shapes and forms. Without the body, it's not a form. It's a form. It's a form. It's a form. It's a form. Without that life, without that light of life in it, what is it? It's a course. It expresses its words, the energy. And light itself is energy. So what's the intelligence energy? The activity of knowing. It's still the light of love, of being.

Being, knowing, loving to be. Anyone doesn't love to be? Of course you love to be. Well, you're using that word love, and then you say you don't know what it means. You take it to be a personal love, or a male feel-no-love. A female connection. Of course all these are coming together, recognizing everything is that oneness, there's an actual spontaneous lovingness there, isn't it? But we don't recognize it. We take the other to be, everything else to be other than what I am. It appears, the pattern, shape, and form appears different to what I am. Do you think the life essence is any different? Life goes.

Life hasn't scarped me. And that's all it is, an essence. And I call an essence, it's like you've got a scent of lavender, for instance, the flower. That's the essence of the flower. The scent, the smell, the beauty that comes through it. And it's the essence that's expressing through these patterns, as you, me, and everything else. It's not recognized. Because we've taken on the belief that we are the persona. Coming from the Latin word, persona, the mask. We're using words. We've learnt words. In that intricate pattern we call the body, mind, the brain, and everything, we're able to express it in sounds. Sounds being vibration.

And vibration forms into words. And the primary sound of this so-called universe. What is it? One sound comes up and says, it's all I am. Translated, you can try and answer that all into I am. And we take on the word I am. But instead of translating it as the absolute, we've translated it as this person, this separate entity, this individual. I or me. As we come, I am. And they tell you again, in Saint Sages, I am that. I am that absolute. There is only that. Innately we know that because we're saying that's the chair, that's the table, that's the flower, that's the tree.

That is everything. We put words on. Now, have a look. When did you begin? You'll say I began at birth. But can you remember your birth? And you're going to know. When you look into it, you'll say you really can't remember your birth. You can form some conceptual idea. When you think it was. Or when you're living. One of some seeming experience like it. But you can't go back and relive that moment of birth. And you can't say what it was because you had no words. What could you say about it without the word? What can you say about anything without the word? So we've learnt words.

Acquired words. Picked up words. And every word you've ever spoken or picked up has been learnt. There is no word. Which you were born with. Every word has been acquired or picked up. And look into the word. Investigate and have a look and see the word. Is the word the actual? Well, take the word water. Can you drink that word? Can you swim in that word? Can you wash in it? Can you drown in it? You can't. Does the word fire? Does it burn your mouth? Can you cook with it? Can you heat yourself with it? You can't. So may this word, I, or me, when you look at it, is not what it appears to be.

We've taken it to be this substantial entity. This person. This separate entity. This individual, this person. All words we put on it. Am I the word? I say I am is the word. It is I am what I am. Or as I am, that sense of presence. That's what Mase has realised that on the mountain. When he said I am that I am. Not the word. Not the concept. Not what it represents. And so I've got to tell you, just stay with the I am-ness. And people think that is what I am. Stay with that word. They repeat it as a mantra. But it's not that at all.

The I am-ness is the sense of presence. That sense of presence is with you right now. How would you express it? Somebody asks you who you are, you say I am. And then you put it on the silence. Bob, Bill, Harry, or whatever. Instead of saying what you actually are. I am the absolute. I am the talent. Tell it. I am the great perfection. Or whatever. I am God. As it says in Isaiah. Be still and know that I am God. Tell it. Just get me there. That sense of presence is the godliness. God is just another label or a word. In the beginning was the word.

That's what it tells you tomorrow. The word was with God. The word was God. That's all God is, is the word. All things were made by him. And then as a matter of fact, everything you see, all the things you see out there, you put labels on them. Words. And that's what it is. That's what it is. That's what it is. That's what it is. That's what it is. That's what it is. That's what it is. That's what it is. That's what it is. There's nothing made without, nothing made that was made without the word. And you see all this thing, word was a god and the label we put on that infinite absolute intelligence energy, which are all words but not it, presence awareness, put words on time to describe the wordlessness.

swivel. Try and negate it. Take that I am away and say I am not. You disappear. Is it the end of you? That's not. So you still are without the word. And if you pause the thought and ask yourself what is wrong with right now, if I don't think about it, to try and get beyond that word without thought, it will be a thought if you go about it. Without that word, without the thought, do you fall apart? Do you stop breathing? Heart stop beating? Do you hear anything else? Is it the end of you? It's not. And you gladly give up the word every night when you go to sleep.

If you were the word, you'd be frightened to lose sight of it. You'd be awake all night hanging on to it. But you know, you give it up gladly. We're glad to give it up. Yet it comes back in the morning again, seemingly fresh and new. We latch onto it again. With all the other concepts we've had, we've added to it. All the sensations, all the feelings and all the beliefs and conceptual images. We load it down instead of pure sense of presence. And it's become a personal I am. The I am belonging to this mask. Persona of a mask, this conceptual image that I've taken the lead to be me without investigating.

Instead of seeing oneself as the absolute, the one reality, I've now become to a small, minute, unbounded, unbounded. human being and how many times we put that label on ourselves and something something exactly said well and you didn't you couldn't do anything you say well after all I'm only you with the limitations and boundaries on ourselves we bound the infinite the absolute into a cage of conceptual images like the caterpillar that's built a cocoon around itself we built a cocoon of words around ourselves and locked our souls into it now that butterfly will rest that caterpillar will rest in that cocoon for a while but the little chrysalis was going is what do they call it growing inside it bit of moissifying or whatever the word is I don't know but it's growing and growing and will bust out of that cocoon and when it busts out it's not no longer the ugly grub it was it's become a beautiful butterfly all different patterns and colors on it and it's flying free of the cocoon it's no longer the lowly grub and living on wings and flying around everywhere in the same air when you are free of the belief that you are the separate entity know the truth and the truth will set you free in that freedom is the joy is the happiness is the sense of well-being not being well and is the lightness in them the energy shiner itself shining ever-fresh presence winds the light addiction shines through it and shines out of your eyes that needs light needs an aperture to shine out of it was covered over everywhere where's it going to shine out honey cracks in the coverings there's a tip there if your head is not the Ini différents polished sustainable Well, where does the shine out of this in these human forms?

Doesn't it shine out through your eyes? How could you see if the light is in your eye? And people have said it in poems and things and recognise the love light in your eyes. It's the light of life. And where does that light come into that pattern of body? Doesn't it come into the umbilical cord through your mother when that little fetus is growing in your body in your mother's womb? Where's the food coming into it? Through the umbilical cord, into your belly button or the umbilical cord there. Into that chakra, that life chakra there. That's when the light comes in. And that light of life comes into it.

And when you're born, it comes out. They cut that cord. And the light continues to shine out through your life. And then it comes in through the breath of the third view. The light of life. And you are that light. And like Christ, you'll say, I am the light of the world. Because the world appears in that light. If that light wasn't there or life wasn't there, what would you know of the world or anything in it? What would you know of yourself or anything in it? Nothing whatsoever. And we ignore it. We ignore it. We take ourselves to be the persona. The one who has this intelligence.

Instead of being the intelligence energy is what the livingness is, we take ourselves to be intelligence and that light. Twisted it around. And we take ourselves to be this persona, this mask turned as well. So instead of being the absolute, we're down to a minimal little creature, creature. And the creature needs a creator. Or a creation to form it. They're already there with the light of life and love and joy. All pattern, shapes and forms. All a phenomenal manifestation. Definition of phenomenon is that which appears to be. It's all appearance. And it's all spontaneous. Time is a mental concept. Time is duration. What duration in this present moment?

How long does it last? It's spontaneous. Has its beginning, its ending. It appears to have duration when we fix the concepts on it. The boundaries on. Take the boundaries off. And see that that pattern and shape and form that you are is transient. It is changing right now. You haven't got the same body you walk into the room with and turn on your Zoom with. There are thousands of cells. Not one or two. If you have one or two, it might be hard to find out. But there are thousands of cells dying in your body right now. When they've looked into it and they've seen it.

It's constantly transient. It's constantly changing. And each cell is suffused with that light of intelligence, of knowing. And it knows what to do. A heart cell is not going to become a skin cell or a liver cell. A liver cell is not going to become a brain cell. Each cell is replaced by that same intelligence in the form of the cell that died, that broke down before it. With a fresh and new one. Spontaneously ever fresh and new. And this body is transient. Constantly changing. I wish the cells in my knee had changed. They are. They're wearing out and falling away. They may be replaced.

They may not be. But whatever life does. Is what life does. Put the proper energy into it. The proper food and air and things like that. Might bring about a change. Which I'm trying to do. But life as we know it. Has a beginning and an end. But. They say this manifestation is appearing. We say it has a beginning and an end. And say the beginning was a big bang. Who was there to say there was a big bang? Any one of you there? Was going to say it was a big bang? Anyone you know of? No. It's begun billions of so-called light years away.

It hasn't. It was beginning ever fresh and ever new. And the pattern is just constantly changing. It couldn't be the same pattern. Because it's got to change. So it's got to seemingly age. It's not the same pattern you had when you began to form. That pattern was the sperm and joined with the ovum. And doubled and redoubled. And that sperm and ovum, the pattern of how's the intelligence entity, that's gone and gone into the energy that's in this pattern right now. And all this is changing constantly. All transient. All spontaneous. No life. But while we believe we are this separate individual, it brings about all the fear, the suffering, the anguish, the stress, the guilt, the shame and remorse, jealousy, envy.

All our psychological suffering comes about because of that belief in the separation. If you're not relating it to a separate entity and see it all as one, no belief going into it, it's going to express in its fullness. But the belief with energy of belief going into the idea of belief is stopping it from changing, stopping it from growing in the mind. So-called mind. But is there such a thing as mind? Have a look and see. You say my mind, all right. You think there's a mind there? Show me your mind. Can you grasp a thing there called mind? I've tried for many years and couldn't.

And I still can't. And I know today there is no such thing as what we call mind. There is such a thing as thoughts. And thought is not what it appears to be. It's a vibration. And the vibrations in the concepts, ideas and images we recall mind. So there's no mind, there's no thought either. They're just words. Thoughts are just words. Words are vibration. Vibrations, they come out as sounds. Sounds are vibration. A vibration is a movement of energy. So the words are sound, energy, vibration. Thoughts are a subtle vibration. They're a subtle form of thought. From that subtle form of thought comes up sensations or feelings.

Thoughts come about, feelings come about next after the thought. Sensations in the body, sensations in the so-called mind, in the thinking. Sensations become feelings. And the words go on the feelings like anger, guilt, shame, remorse, fear. They're all labels we put on feelings, sensations. So the seeing of ever fresh new sensations. We've got the belief that this was fear years ago when we learnt words, the parents told us, or anger. And that sensation comes up today. Instead of realising it's long since changed, it's gone, it's dead, we relate it to the old feeling. Oh, this one's fear that helped me when I was a child and blah, blah, blah.

So we take it on board and get lost in the dead image. The image is dead. The imaging that's going on now is dead. The image is fresh and new and it's spontaneous. It only lasts, we can't even say a moment because that's time. It's spontaneous. It's ever changing. It's ever fresh. That's what they tell you. Ever changing. Like the ocean is ever changing. Yet it's never changing. It's ever changing with waves, ripples and tides and coming and going, but it's never changing as the ocean. It's still water. So we've taken on all these concepts and locked into the concepts. And so we've separated ourselves and standing as a separate entity, an individual, a person, a mask, a conceptual image.

This persona is the mask, the conceptual. I am this person. Oh, the Australian, the good fellow or the unhappy fellow or the sad fellow, the fellow's health is not so good, getting old. All these concepts are put on it. They're taken to be believed. A conceptual image is added to the livingness. And it's blocking the images from being there in its fullness. The livingness is ever fresh and ever free in its fullness, not blocked by the images. It'll be totally different. The unconcerned about what is going on, let that float free. The concern and the worry and the concern and unhappiness. See what happens. See where it brings you.

See what it does to you. See that light that's shining in you will shine out of your eyes and change your expression, change your health. Instead of living for a dead image, try to keep up with the past, which can't happen because there's no such thing as time. And the dead can't keep up with the past. It's spontaneous and only lasts a moment. And we're relating to the old dead image. And that's not life. And I say one of the things in the Buddha will tell you, be utterly awake with the five senses wide open. You're awake right now, we're aware. Open up the five senses.

I mean by seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, thinking. They're the five senses. But we're not open to the five senses. We're either in the seeing, we're focusing on the seeing, or the hearing. And what you are, the tasting, touching, smelling, the feeling, and seeing. So we left the others behind, lost sight of them. So he says, be utterly awake with the five senses wide open, and be utterly open with unfixated awareness. We're not fixating on the fear or the thinking or the watching, whatever's going on, or the hearing. You're just with them. But you're not fixated on them totally. So you're aware with the other feelings and feelings.

And the feelings or sensations come into it as well. So you can jump from one to the other quite easily and necessarily as possible. So you're living fully. But you're living attached to the one and isolating yourself in the one sense. You've left the rest. Life has left you behind because life is transient. It's constantly changing. And you're not with it wide open and going with each and every one. You're getting left behind. And that's been most of our life. We're living from the dead image, trying to keep up with life. So we're never fully there. We're never fully happy or contented. We have taste.

But at times we drop the other and catch up. And it's been good. But it doesn't last. Because we go back. We don't go back. We forget about it and relax back into the old habit patterns. And lose sight of it. I saw it and it was great, but I lost it. How could you actually lose it? Who's to lose it? Only you're going back into the old way. You're going back into the old belief that there's an I or a me here that is separate and apart from it. But I as life, I am that living. I am totally with it. Any I that's taken on the sense of the body, mind, the conceptual image must be with life.

And you can say like Christ, I am the way. I am the truth. I am that life. I am that absolute. And what do you need apart from that? You get yourself out of the road as that that thinks it knows all and does all. And you are that and that will take you where you've got to go. And that is expressing, brought you into existence. You don't realise it. We forget that. And it's lived you every moment since then. And you try to think, even though you've seemingly lost sight of it. You think it's going to let you down now? It's taken you through all the thick, the thin, the good, the bad, the ugly, and everything else.

And you've taken on the belief instead of moving on with life, it's taken you there. It won't let you down. It'll bring things to you that you never thought was possible if you open and aware of it. And you're not unaware right now, so you must be aware. What concepts, have a look and see what concepts, ideas, or images are blocking it. And you're saying this is all bull, or I don't believe it, it's not true, I can't do that. Put it all on. But you see you're shutting yourself off from the sunlight of the spirit. That's what they tell you in the big book of AA when they call it spiritual.

They say we shut ourselves off from the sunlight of the spirit and the insanity of alcohol returns and we drink again. And for us to drink is to die. The sunlight of the spirit. Call it spiritual. And what's spirit? Essence. Spirit is essence. And what spirit, the opposite of spirit is matter. Matter is material. All these body, mind, and patterns are matter. They're material. Now can spirit ever know matter? It can't. Because all there ever is is spirit. But it seems to pattern, shape, and form into matter, into material. And that's our problem again. We take the matter or the material, seemingly solid, to be real.

Matter is just congealed spirit, like blood when it's running and congeals and seemingly sets. Or water when it cools. Water when it cools, all it sends is ice. It seemingly sets. And when spirit becomes material, it's seemingly set. But don't they tell you you are spiritual beings? You are the essence. And the pattern, shape, and form is seemingly solid or material. And they tell you again it's transient. It's constantly changing. And it's phenomena, the definition of phenomena, it's appearance only. It's not real. What you are is essentially spirit. And spirit is not separate. It's one essence. And you are that. So that'll do. I've raved on long enough.

Take the raving and do what you like. Put Kat on and she'll add to it. She always does. But put something new to it because it's coming through fresh and new in her mind. And growing more and more each time she speaks it like it does in everybody. And a lot of you out there know it and understand it and can contribute to it. You don't have to be listeners all the time. You can contribute to it. And those of you that don't fully understand it can ask questions, might cut something up. But some of you don't need any more questions. Instead of going keep questioning for the sake of questions.

Go on. Keep coming out. How is it resonating for you? How is it echoing or resonating or energising through that vibrating energy through that body? How much light of intelligence is shining through? How much love or warmth or compassion which is that light? Recognise it and let it shine. So get you out. Hi everyone. For those who don't know me, I'm Kat. I live here with Bob since the last five years or so. And yes, as he says, the more you put attention on it, the more you express it, the more it renews itself. It is like Bob is using that saying that you can't put anything to the full cup.

So pour it out. And that's the safe space to do it here where we are because nobody's going to judge you. So if there is anything that comes up for you, anything that you heard strongly, please share it. And if you heard something that was said or heard strongly in what he was saying, or perhaps heard somewhere else that kind of moves you or maybe even worries you or maybe even triggers you that you disagree with, this is the safe place to actually look into it, to speak it up or perhaps ask questions or maybe share a little bit of, yeah, whatever works. Because, yeah, I can keep talking.

That's not a problem. I love talking to people. I love talking about it as much as Bob loves talking about it. And many, many people who actually understands or feels that the essence of it, it is impossible to speak directly about it because it is non-dual. It is not to be described in language, which by its nature is duality. Language is duality. Every word is a symbol and every symbol has its opposite. So we are doing an impossible task here. Pointing into something that's beyond the words, beyond the mind. But don't we love it? I mean, it's like poetry, speaking unspeakable. But I don't really need to repeat all the whole thing.

I would rather invite people to open up and share, ask questions. And well, if there will be too much silence, we'll kick into a game. But just for now, if you would like to unmute yourself and just speak. Can you get the customers on? Yes, they are. Everyone's on. Yeah. Much better. So please just unmute your speaker. And if anything comes up, I see you, David. Hello, Kat. Wonderful satsang, Bob. Thank you very, very much. Thank you, David. You shouldn't have any questions left. I don't at the moment. You've taken them all away. Well, what's going on instead of the question? Sorry, I missed that.

What's going through instead of the question? What have you understood or grasped or can point to? I was just, I don't have any words for it, Bob. Seriously. Just to throw it away, there's no words for it. Exactly. There's no words to express. Exactly. Yeah. But there might be a few coming in later. So we'll see. No, great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Great. Thanks. Thanks, guys. If there are any questions that perhaps you would like to repeat, maybe, because every time you look into it, the insight comes fresh and new.

I mean, we answered the same questions for years and years, and they always find answers. I don't know how to do it. It's always kind of, it flies with the mood, with resonance, with all of it. This is all universe. I guess I can find a question actually now that I'm on the spot. Yeah. Yes. Very good. I'm going to put that in just a little bit. That being that for most of us, we're not going to be able to ... Sorry. I'm just trying to get my thoughts together here. But for those that have become awake or ... Well, sorry, for those here that have become awake.

I'd like to address this question and that is the transition from the illusion or the sleeping aspect that most of us feel we're in to the awake and stage. Does that happen sort of very gradually and the so-called individual, in inverted commas, do they slip into that in a gradual way or does it suddenly just happen? Or again, is it different for every one of us? Yeah, well, you want to answer that, Bob? Well, it's always immediate. Immediate, immediate. It won't be any other way. So there's no gradual, you know, sort of an emergence from one or transition from one to the other? We've all probably practised it a long time before it happened.

What if we can't say it didn't help, but you can't say it did help? The final answer is when all of a sudden you see the... There was a sort of a high-agency. You say, there was no thought there. And it was just... Like you just sort of dropped into it. So is it something like a sunrise, a sun bursting on the horizon? That's what I call the dawn. The dawn. The sun doesn't come in the darkness until the light shines over the horizon. Yeah. And that's just like, you know, you can be racing around going to work on the morning or something like that and you race out the door, slam the door, get down the road to get on the tram and you realise you left the keys behind.

Yeah. Yeah. keys behind them. Yeah, yeah. Something like that. Okay. Very good. And that you can actually call some sort of a shift, you know, the perception shifts from the identification with the form to kind of more spacious, relaxed sort of seated feeling. And the thing is for a lot of people that were coming here for those last years that I could watch, those sort of shifts would happen every now and then. And every next shift would kind of make it a little bit more familiar. Almost as like reconditioning. The moment you know, they are daydreaming, daydreaming, daydreaming, fantasizing, getting engaged in the drama. And then suddenly, oh, right.

Yeah, that's just horrible. So every moment of seeing through would make the narrative shorter for the next time. Almost as if you would have the, like a doll made of the salt, feeding into the ocean. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. But that was for some of the people. For others, it would be an opening in which, you know, like this was the way for Bob. I see there is a question about Bob and Nisa Gaddafa you'll answer in a second, I hope. And the same way for me, it was just the moment of the little insights that were kind of accumulated over the years. They still didn't kind of, they didn't dissolve completely the sense of self.

It used to reestablish itself. The identification would reestablish itself and would be believed, habitually believed again and again. And then in one sort of a really, really deep moment of shift, that identification was seen through. And it, there was really no believing in it again, because there was no one left to believe in it again. So sometimes it happens in one instantaneous moment after which narrative may come back. The thoughts, the dramas, they may come back, but there is no one who actually believes them to be me. There is no me in the narrative anymore. But according to my feeling, there is more of a people who have the moment of opening and then reestablishing of the self until the point comes where it's not even a point, because you can't really pinpoint it.

But there is, there is a sort of a recognition that even the reestablished sense of self or sense of location comes, it is not to be believed. It is just part of the illusion, just the way you see the blue ocean, or blue sea, even though you know it is not blue. You still see it, so you still kind of see there is a me, but you don't believe in that me. There is no belief in it. And it's not you, this is not me believing it. It's just the consciousness doesn't buy into it. But the ultimate truth is overlooking the whole process as something happening in time is erroneous.

We answer those questions because I know this is the mind's curiosity. It can't, mind can't help it. But put everything in the context of time. But the ultimate truth is there is no time in it. You either see through it right now, or you don't. That's it. I mean, there is a seeing always. And you either see it clearly, or you see it through a filter of identification with the me. There is no third option. Like over time it will lessen. You know, it seems this way. It seems like we are aging over time, or we are learning a new skill over time, and we are getting clearer over time.

But the reality is only this moment. So fundamental it's black and white. It's either one or the other. But it's a wonderful description as well. Well, it's not really. It's not even black and white. It's really, you either see it exactly... Well that's what I mean. Exactly. You see it through the thin layer of clouds. Yeah, yeah. Thick layer of clouds. Yeah, right. But it's overcast. So seeing always happen. You either see it through the eye or you don't. Or you see it an eyes of pure consciousness and David is the belief in conditioning and belief in filters but the sink is always there it's just how how thick layer of the clouds feel thank you very much guys and then can I add to that a little bit of course absolutely always welcome Donna hi I was just thinking of a nice analogy for this imagined journey through time and I'm a little out of breath I was walking up some steps oh my gosh anyway there's I like the analogy of dreaming oh yeah and what you are is the dreaming that awareness or consciousness is dreaming and you are the dreamer and you are the dreamer and you are the dreamer and you are the that it's David going through a process called awakening that David's asleep and doesn't know that this dreaming thinks that it's David that doesn't know and is searching for itself so you're the dreamt you're you're not the dreamer you're actually the dreamt character you can dream whatever you want I mean you can dream about journaling you can dream about awakening you can you know you you you can be the the hitler you can be a saint you can be whatever you want but it doesn't change the fact that the dreaming is not the character so nothing actually happened to the dreaming let's say you're that consciousness is the dreaming nothing ever happens to it nothing happens to you when you're dreaming right so you wake up and you know it's like it never happened it never happened so yeah so another analogy would be energy a big huge field of energy where there's seeing and hearing and tasting and touching and all these experiences but then it takes the form of david that is now can see and hear and taste and touch and then there's a seer and a scene and but you're that empty space that huge field so nothing ever happens to you but a lot a lot can happen in the dream exactly so it could be in a parent it can be an apparent journey uh it can seem that way but it's actually not so when in that dream let's say the dream character the dreaming has the dream character say oh my gosh i'm being dreamt i'm not the real yeah so yeah and then some people stay awake or asleep in the dream the characters continued play out as as dreaming or asleep through the whole dream and never have that opportunity again to say, hey, I'm being dreamt.

So, and nobody has dibs on that. Nobody can say how that dreaming's going to transpire for each individual character that's being dreamt. So it's different for each one of us in a way, the experience, the so-called awakening or that period where we recognize that we are being dreamt. Is that right? Correct. Yes, and each snowflake is unique. Everything's fresh and new and spontaneous. Nothing's repeated. So, you know, I could follow Bob's footsteps my whole entire life and my life and do everything Bob does, hear everything Bob does, see everything Bob does. But because of our instruments, these body-mind instruments, it's so unique. I mean, imagine the infinite possibilities just in the instrument's creation and how it's going to perceive.

So yeah, absolutely, Dave. Lovely. Thank you, Donna. Thank you. Also, Donna, I can't give you permission to record. I don't know why. It's just... You know what? I'm on my phone. It won't let me record. I am so sorry. My computer's dead. I couldn't get on it. So I forgot to plug it in. Yeah, I'll send it to you. Sorry. That's okay. David, I would also wanted to ask one thing. It is actually quite helpful because it is a question that is a genuine question. I used to have that question. I used to want the generalized answer. What to expect? How long am I going to wait?

And all that stuff. But it's really, there is no answer to it. But it's helpful to look where is that question coming from? Because when you see what is the source of a question, you will see that it really is that me. I want it to happen for me. So I should be looking at the source of where that question is coming from more than getting the answer to the question itself. Yes. Yes. Yes. Exactly. This is a very, very good answer in spirituality, which I don't usually like to throw at people. But it is really to be posed lovingly. Like who is there? Who wants to know?

Who is so curious? Because I get where you're coming from. It is the loving care. You know, you care about that little dream figure, that dream character called David. And you want good for him. You want the enlightenment for him. You love him. That's love. That's beautiful. But who is it? That one thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely. Great. Great thought. Thank you. Thank you, Kat. Thank you, Bob. And Donna, thank you. And there was a question, Bob, on the screen. Let me get it up again. It says, and this is from Ben. Hi. Can you please talk about meeting Srini Sargadatta Maharaj and what helped clear things up the most?

What questions did you ask about the I Am? Well, I heard about him. I didn't want to even go and see him. I didn't know anything about him. Circumstances got me there. I read the book. And I'd done a lot of seeking beforehand. And he told me that it wasn't the body and mind, or the mind, like I'd heard many, many times. At this time, something about the man, I don't know what it was. But you couldn't help but love him. People say he was an angry man, but he wasn't angry. I never said he was angry. He'd wave his arm about and say, thanks, and get earnest in his, by the way he was speaking.

He was loving. You couldn't help but love the man. And I saw what he was saying. It wasn't all in the mind. And I said, good. I'll never get caught in the mind again. But I walked out the door and I was. But the difference was I'd seen through it. And it could never be the same. Once you see something is false, you can never believe it again. Now, I go there after. All that discipline I was doing at the Ashman, because it is Ashman, of course. I'd done all sorts of discipline. I'd done it for a couple of years. It all dropped off. And I was very sincere and earnest about it.

And then it was. And left me with nothing to do, nothing to be, nowhere to go, nothing to see. I thought, well, I'll be here for the rest of my life. And that was a bit of a shock. I didn't know. . But then things turned around and took me away from Newham for a while. But every time I'd go and see him after that, you know, he'd get me out on the floor and hammer the hell out of me. There weren't many Westerners there when I went along. They didn't start coming to after. I left a while then, you know. And for every question I had, even though I thought it was the most wonderful and beautiful or insight, he'd knock it to the floor.

Left me with nothing all the time. Zilch. Fear of nothing. Fear of nothing. And he wouldn't let... He wouldn't let me focus or fasten on anything at all. And that became the awareness, you know. And it just grew from there on. And it continues to grow. The seeing is immediate. I think, like, you know, clearing away the rubbish is great. But that takes a bit of time. You've got to see it again and again. You can never go back and say you lost it. How could you lose something that was never ever there? You know? That you were never ever there. Never had it in two lives.

Who was there to get it or what? When you see there's no one, no person who has it or can lose it. We believe we are this personal separate animal. It's got to find it. But you already are that. That's all there is. It's the person. It's the fiction. Not the message or the... The message is, you are that. Everything is that. It's absolute. It's the way. I don't know. It's worked for me anyway ever since then. And that's over 40 years ago. Yeah, 45 years. 1975, 1975, when you sent it out. 1976 when you were leaving. Early in the 70s. 76 maybe. Yeah. Oh.

75 when we went over there. Went over there to the Nisargadatta. That's where we were at the Lhoktana. Mm-hmm. Lhoktana. Yeah. Right. About March 76. I left in March 77. And when you left, when he left, Nisargadatta called out the party and made a dinner. And they both cried. They over that 12 months when they were meeting each other. I wasn't there. I was just born. But yeah, I squeezed out all those beautiful memories of Bob. So, not only he wasn't an angry man. He was a loving friend, dear loving friend. Yeah, he was serene and loving. We just found the picture we were asked to speak on the conference and I found that picture really a week ago that is there behind us.

And I put it down to show Kaslan, who spoke with us last time, and it just stayed there. So we have Mr. Galata with us on the meeting just in case he'll go up on the wall, as he sees, overlook the house. Although, of course, just the image, everything's an image. Thank you, Miriam. Is there? Oh, and there is a yes from Joe. I have a question. When you're ready, Bob, who or what is that identifies? What identifies? Who identifies? Beautiful question. The conceptual image, me, my. But what identifies with the image? What identifies with the image? What is it that identifies as me? There's only one.

There's just life. There's nothing else. Well, that's life and then there's me. There's me, but it's not, you know, it's not that you point it out, but there's no image. It's just a natural cognoscente. Yeah. It identifies you. It identifies as me. It's me is a conceptual image that forms. Yeah. Yeah, it's like a costume. It's like the... When you're born, you learn the first words you learn, I or me. You don't quite know. And I, you know, when you start to reason, there's no reasoning until you're about two, two and a half or three. The capacity of reasoning starts to build. When you start to reason, you can't do much with I or me.

Just say I or me. So you add on it, I am Bob or I am this or I am that. It's added onto it and you form a conceptual image of that which you believe is you. And from there on, there after that image, which is a reference point or self-centred or the ego, that's a separate, it's a separate entity or individual. But it's not. It's just a concept. A thought, thought of an idea. And that belief that is separate is the problem. Belief's never the actual. That's an unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason. We haven't reasoned it out, we've accepted it that I am this person from then on.

And reinforcing it daily. Whether by our schools, parents, society and everybody else. I reinforce it, everybody around. We start reinforcing it ourselves. Until we've got this seemingly solid idea that I am Bob the Australian, this person, I am this person. And you are that and everything else is some other person. All images, which the energy of belief has gone into. And all those thoughts or words are images. Nothing controlling you as a saga don't suit you except for your own image. Your own imagination. Break it down to image in. And imagine. And you see we are making these mental images and believing them to be real.

And that makes trouble for these images. But look in the mirror. And what do you see in the mirror? You see nothing but reflections or images in the mirror. You can't say they're not there. But go up and try and grab an image out of the mirror. And you can't. So you can't say they are there. Because you can't grab them. You can't say they're not there. Because they still appear to be there. But this image we have about ourselves. You can't say it's not there. You can't say it is there. But when you question it and look into it, you see all of it is a group of concepts, thoughts and ideas.

What were you for the first two years of your life when you had no words, when you had no image about yourself? You were living quite well right then from your parents and all this. But you had no concepts about yourself or words. You had no thoughts. There was pleasure or pain or whatever was going on. You couldn't even say it was pleasure or pain. If you were hungry, you'd cry. And you wouldn't even know it was crying. It was just another sensation. You were concerned until you learnt words to discriminate. And everything from then on is discriminated by the word. It's good, bad, pleasant, painful.

And again, back in the beginning was the word. They say it's all words we've acquired or learnt. There'd be no identifying with a separate entity or a separate soul without that conceptualising and thinking coming upon us, reasoning coming upon us at the age of two. When that sense of reasoning, the capacity of reasoning comes on, we start saying I am this body, I am this mind. Yes, so we have another question here, the clarification from Ben. So you identify with our awareness and not the I am, thinking this or doing this. You are the awareness behind the thinking and doing not the illusory self? Yes.

Behind you. Awareness is knowing or a light of intelligence. That's awareness first. You can't say what it is because you can't describe awareness now. It's just another thing. But on that awareness then comes the consciousness. And the consciousness is thoughts and words and feelings and sensations which we label. Yes. And everything appears are expressions of that awareness. Pattern, shape and form. And awareness needs something to express for it. So it fashion, shapes and forms this body with all the organs and all the things in. This life essence punching through this body, you know, and it's able to express as other patterns, see other patterns, shapes and forms.

It's the light of knowing or seeing through it. In that light of intelligence, everything else appears. And that awareness is light, if you like, or energy. It's just a pure energy, the light. Energy of light. Life is. Light is life. It's life itself. And you are the life. Take the life out of that body, you've got a corpse. What good is that corpse to you? No good. It's got the eyes, it's got the ears, the heart, the first, the voice box, all the organs and all the lungs are there. You're not a bit of good without that life, strangely. When the life stops going in, you're not a bit of good.

So what must you be? You must be a good person. You must be a good person. You must be a good person. You must be a good person. You must be a good person. You must be a good person. You must be a good person for the good of all things. You must be a good person if you just don't have a story to tell about that. You must be a good person without that life, strangely. When the life stops going in, you're not a bit of good. So what must you be? You must be that life itself. And that life is ever-fresh, ever-new and spontaneous.

And change in forms and body utilizes while it's necessary. Then it discards it like a dirty rag, throws it away. It's not a bit of good. The life continues. The awareness or the life, the wakefulness, the awareness supplies the energy to the body. It's not a bit of good. You are the way. If you don't have a life, you're not a good person. Then the life stops going in. necessary then it discards it like a dirty rag it throws it away it's not a bit of good the life continues or the awareness of the life the wakefulness or awareness has never been spontaneous it never begins or never ends continuously there it's the light like it's coming the light can go through many different bulbs in the house and some different powers and something if the full light of intelligence energy was functioning through you to blow you apart so you need to transform yourself by giving the else those transforms look at it what it does to they can implode galaxies and full volcanoes and form tsunamis and everything like that and through this little body it needs to transform it needs the body mind to express through to break it down there's still one energy expressing through everything you can only be that that is what you are and when we put the limitations of ourselves in the belief we are separate and take on this idea we have a personal life or a separate life no wonder we suffer and one of those excited psychological suffering going on we totally broke all down into the belief why and the body i am the mind i am this person i am alive and christ said i am the way i am the truth my life people thought he was saying that i am was himself the person he's talking to.

I am is a sense of presence. That sense of presence is going through you. Now how would you express it with someone? You say I am Bob or I am Bill or I am David or Chris. So that sense of presence has been broken down into a concept or a word. But it's still the sense of presence. Now that's spontaneous. That's eternal. You think eternity has a beginning and an end. So we've broken down to some imagined or conceptualised Big Bang. Anyone around when the Big Bang happened could say it was right, it was true. So anything that has a beginning must have an ending to it.

This person believed in birth has a beginning. It will have an end to it. But you as the life that's expressing through it has no beginning and no end. Eternity is beginningless and endless. And when you say you're beginning right now, it's spontaneous. When are you ending? Grab hold of now if you can. What's your ration of now? As you're saying now, it's already ending. And it's beginning and it's ending. It's not the beginning and no ending. It's just spontaneous emanating, expressing. And you can't be anything other than that. Yes, so you used a few words. The presence, the awareness, the sense of presence, the awareness, the life.

The I am, the being, they all signify the same thing. There's no separate. There's being, life, they all the same. And that's why we miss the other. There are so many things, which we put different words on. You know, I am. There's another one. Awareness, stillness, touchy, dhananda, being, omnipresence, omnipotence, silence, stillness, Brahman, Atman, Tathagatagarbha. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. There's just so many ways they try to point. And the moment we put word on it, it kind of stopped being subjectivity, which is wrong. It is subjectivity. The sense of presence, the I am, it's here now. It is what I am. It is not it.

It is I. It's impossible. I have a little joke that I posted on my Facebook page. It said, if God is invisible and we are made in God's image, then why aren't we invisible? There you go. I thought, and so, you know, I think that's, what's that? You are invisible as the essence of the awareness. Show me awareness. You are invisible. Yeah. You can't, I mean, that's the whole point. You can't see love and you can't see, your breath and you can't see energy and you can't see this awareness. With these eyes, you'll never see them physically because you are those things. So you can't, you can't see it because you are it and it's animating through this body.

So whatever is perceived is not the perceiving. Yeah. A lot, Shawnee. So yes, in a sense we are invisible. It's quality-less. It's not a thing. You know, love, that feeling of love is not a thing. Yeah. You can't grasp it. You can't hold onto it. You can't say it's mine. It comes and, you know, I mean, the person wants to claim it so badly, but it's, it's, you can't deny it's there though. Just like the air, you know, you could see it by its expressions. Yeah. You know, blowing through the trees and you could feel it on your skin, but you can't see it with the eyes, but you can't say it's not there either.

So just wanted to add that. Yeah. One more. That's all. So you can't say it is. You can't say it is. Invisible, in the dark. It is no thing. So it's the two ends of the one stick, I suppose, either. Is or is not. You can't say it is. You can't say it's not. Yeah. And as Bob said beautifully, it needs a pattern to express through. So it gives itself that pattern of the body. It creates itself. It dreams itself. The body, the face, the eyes, the ears, because otherwise it is blind and deaf. Dumb. It's just, it needs the form. It needs the instruments to play the music.

It needs the instrument that gives it an illusion of a possibility to grasp its own reflection, to be able to see that reflection, because everything is it, which is I. Everything is what I am. So this screen, Bob, this world around is a reflection of my infinite creative capacity as its Color, as its Light, as its Light and its Light, and its Light and its Light and its that power as that light which creates and expresses itself as the forms which are all empty. The nature of it is all empty, none of it can be separated from the environment, not one thing can stand on its own.

Donna was saying the same thing, you're saying the same thing, I'm saying the same thing, we're using different words. That's it, yeah. Thousand pointers, we can talk for hours and hours, it's always pointing to the same. And it's always pointing at it, it can't really touch it with words. Singularity and subjectivity, this is a subject, subject of experiencing, it is experiencing, it is expressing. Right here, right now, it is not it doing it through something, because it does express us, the body, also. So it, which is me, is me. It's the body as well. It's on one hand, it can't be what it sees, so it is not the body because it sees the body, but really it is, because it is everything.

So the body is included, nothing is excluded. Everything which is no thing, nothing can stand on its own, nature of everything is empty, everything is empty. So that emptiness is form, it expresses as form, nothing is not it. I think it's funny. I'm going to use some thoughts and words because thoughts and words are just pointers, they're not really the truth. They're just a futile attempt to explain what is, because it would be like if all there was was this body, my body, mine instrument, and somebody said, who are you? And I pointed here. That's just a tiny, tiny piece of the whole. Yeah. And it's just, is that me right here?

Or is this me? Or is this me? Or is this finger me? Or is it, so words are just pointers because you're already, the finger that's pointing is you too. That is the wholeness. So we're trying to use words which are an expression of the wholeness to explain the wholeness when you're that. So it's like, you know, trying to step away from yourself, okay? I want somebody to just take one step away from who you are, and it's impossible because you're already everything. So you can't step outside of yourself. You can't point to yourself because the pointing is yourself too. And it's only pointing to, you know, just the tiniest little piece that seems to be appearing.

So nobody's actually able to tell the whole truth because all concepts are just pointers. They're not the actuals. And they're not something that you can say, got it, this is it. But what they're pointing to, you know, they're contained in everything. It's part of that expression. So it's impossible to really talk about it. But you can point to it. Can I just add perhaps one of the greatest English shenanigans of our last 500 years was William Shakespeare. He attempted to put pointers in plays all the way through his works. And one that comes to mind in particular is the role of bottoms. He was a weaver in Midsummer Night's Dream.

The bottom was a weaver by trade. And his head was turned into a donkey on frequent occasions by puck. And the weaver, in a sense, is a metaphor for the discursive activity of mind. And the role that puck plays is the role of the deluding power of atman. The deluding power of this. The supreme self. It plays in its own creation. And Shakespeare does this rather nicely in the role that he gives to bottom. He turns his head into that of an ass. So when puck turns bottom's head into that of an ass, he's really showing that his true power lies outside the realm of bottom's capacity to handle or understand it.

And it's a bit like that with the rest of the world. It's a bit like that with the creation that the supreme absolute plays with it. And it's just its deluding power. It's game. It's the one in executive charge of the whole game. And it behoves us to wake up and become aware of what's going on so we can enjoy the play at large. And that's all it is, just a play. Yeah, lila they call it. Divine game. Divine game. Mm. Yeah. I have another quote that I like. It's God is not playing with you. God is playing as you. As you, yeah. Yeah. We're all characters in the great play.

But we're all the one essence, the one in corporal essence appearing as many. Yeah. Just when you dream, you dream at night. And then the dream is furnished with all sorts of situations, places, people. And all those appear out of the thin air of the flashing neurons somewhere in the brain. And they come into existence. And they engage. And they argue. And they whatever, fly. They make love, whatever they do. And then shift happens. And the dream ends and it disappears. And then this dream comes about. And it's expressed in mirrors and mirrors of different lines. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah, as you said, Bob, we're not creating anything.

We're just rediscovering what we already are. And because it's already everything, you can't create it. And my sense is that it's simply understanding, a misunderstanding, that we're creating. And it's just understanding, a misunderstanding that we're something that we're not. So in a sense, it's just deconstructing this thought process that we have about who we are and reconstructing it. And then like Ramana said, take both concepts, the ones of what you thought you were and the ones that are pointing to what you are, and then throw them both away. And then there's just what you are. Don't need the concepts anymore. Thank you. And for me, that's all we can really do in these talks is just try and deconstruct the ideas of what we think we are.

That's the process of renunciation, isn't it? It's a step by tiyaga, as it's known in Sanskrit, process of deconstructing attachment, one by one, recognizing what is false. And the truth sets us free. Yeah. Yeah. And then the seriousness goes out of it. And life becomes light. And now you can really enjoy the play because you know there is nothing, what you are can't be touched, can't be harmed. The body can be destroyed, but you are not the body. And it doesn't mean you're not going to be defending and protecting. The body is equipped in that mechanism, survival strategies, and it will look after itself. But when you're not attached, you're not going to be crying over the fact of aging.

It is all light. It is all kind of humorous in a way because, yeah, somewhat everything changes. And everything has its own beauty. Every age, every wrinkle, every adversity has its own beauty. And it is going to change. Nothing is going to last. So nothing is serious. Nothing is really threatening. One thing that Ramana Maharshi counsels is that when we have these understandings that set us free, we are not going to be afraid. Right. We are going to be afraid of the things that set us free. We need to abide in the realizations that we've had. So this abidance is achieved through, according to Ramana Maharshi, and it's easily found in experience, to just connect with stillness and silence.

Because that is the substrate behind all activity and movement in the creation. Behind all vibrations. Behind all things. Behind all things. Behind all things. And that is the substrate of silence. Yeah. And it's connecting with that silence on an ongoing basis as best as we can through practice that we come to stand alone and not be dependent on the whiles and the ways of the activities in the creation so that we're not affected by pleasure and misery alike. We stand aloof from it. Because we are not that. We are, in fact, stillness. And it's easy to connect with by, as Bob mentioned earlier in the talk, just being still.

Be still and know that I am. Yeah. And you also said, Ramana Maharshi, you asked the question, who am I? And when you ask that question, ask yourself, whose question is it? And you'll realize I am. That I am the questioner. And the question is the thought I am. When you ask, who's asking the question, that's the questioner's thought. And thought are one and the same thing. Questioner is the question. They cancel each other out. Where does that leave you? Stillness. Yourself. Yeah. Yeah. In other words, putting it perhaps is that whatever you see or whatever can be seen, you can't be that. Yeah. So if you're watching the mind, for example, the comings and the goings of concepts, thoughts, words, whatever happens to be present in mind.

And we so mind is perhaps a concept itself. It's a collection or a set of thoughts. So using that as a definition, if we observe whatever takes place in the mind, vis-a-vis all these concepts and thoughts, then we can't be that. So we just keep going back and back and back, watching and looking. And if we, whilst we can see something, we know that we are not that. And that is not who we are. Eventually, we come to see the observer, not in a sense of having a form or a shape or a name, but in terms of the source of the process of observation.

Yeah. And behind that is the observer. And behind that again, we then see the light of the observer. Observing. Observing, yes. So there is no object, no subject. And that's all. Thinking, seeing, tasting, touching. So the I-N-G is touching. It's just in. In the medium. Yes. And I said it as that. I think you've formed a subject. And that's the subject is this conceptual image you have about yourself. Yes. Yes. That's the object. The thought has become the object. Can there be a thinker without thinking? There can't be. Can there be the thought without thinking? There can't be. Can there be a seer without seeing?

Or an experiencer without experiencing? Or the observer without observing? So they're all. The I-N-G on it, there's something that gives them a life. This is the functioning. All appearing on that screen, which for want of a better term, we use awareness. Yeah. Awareness is like the basic screen. And the first thing that appears on it is consciousness. And consciousness. And they said all consciousness is existence. Utterly or totally aware that it exists. So without the awareness, there couldn't be the consciousness. They went on the same thing. The same thing broken down and everything is broken down from here. One essence, patterning, shaping, forming, experiencing, shifting as everything and as another thing.

You know, Bob, my experience is that the emptiness that Ramana was pointing to is not empty. It's no thing. It's not a thing. Because there's always going to be the empty space of awareness, but there's always that energy, that life moving and vibrating. So they're not separate from each other. But they're not things either. They appear as apparent things, but they're not things. That's true. That's true. They are things, but they're not. There's no thing. Because I don't feel that emptiness is empty at all. It's just not a thing. There's no thing. And all this manifestation is made up of things. Thanks for the point.

Things before you put the label, the discriminating label on. Everything. Everything is the no thing. No thing is the everything. Emptiness is form. The form is nothing other than the emptiness. And I think a lot of what Ramana says is more of a description than the prescription, because it is everything. Everything is the emptiness. Right. he's stating what is so it's not that you have to be silent because basically what's happening is is silent listening or stillness moving it's basically a description of what what is and that recognition will also arise of what is but not by your doing so all the effort in the world that I did I mean by merit alone with all the books I've read and the meditations and satsangs and traveling and just the thousands and thousands of hours I've put into searching by merit alone I should have you know that recognition years ago just just just by my desire and and everything but it wasn't me that was doing it it was just a way that it was expressing and through this body-mind instrument and then these these clarity started coming these understanding started arising but the the point is that there wasn't a person doing it it's basically a person doing it and it's a person doing it and it's basically a person doing it and it's basically energy and that life essence is expressing as this body-mind that was having these understandings but there was no me doing it because if it was me doing it I would have awakened years ago I would have gone through all that suffering it's like what was I waiting for you know oh you have to suffer some more you know you're not worthy but that wasn't the case the recognition is that it rises and expresses as you and you're not doing it when you said what is that's exactly it is nothing other than the isn't right what they do I feel you know all those people who actually point that Amana is inspiring to focus on the silence Nisargadatta is inspiring to focus on the sense of I am Bob is inspiring in thousands of ways always bringing back to relax out of the destruction relax out of that mental drama, that chatter in the head, back into the natural state, as in nature, that what is, without believing any of the illusory, crazy stories about future and past and context and all that situations that we entertain ourselves.

Go back to, and this is not an instruction. This is not what you have to do. You have to focus on silence, oh I am. No, there's no you to do anything. It really is only the one, it's always that self to self or awareness to awareness. It's always the one that life playing hide and seek and inspiring itself. Bob speaking only to itself, he says, I'm not speaking to any body or any mind, but to the I am which I am, that same I am, which is in everyone. So it inspires itself, it plays with itself, it winks at itself, it kisses itself through the inside.

It's through the pointers. It's all fun, ultimately, if it wouldn't lose itself in the dream of identification, it couldn't find itself. And then there would be no awakening possible. So it is all brilliantly played out. It is a brilliant stage in which the suffering is necessary. The pain is necessary to understand pleasure. The day is necessary to see the night. The happiness is necessary. All of it has its place. Do you want to say something? No? No, I'm trying to... Mm-hmm. Really? Oh no, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, yeah. You always... If I see he wants to say something, I kind of want to stop everyone because we want to...

Yeah. No, that's a fair one, I think. Said enough anyway, didn't you? I kind of feel that you were taking a breath, so. Mm-hmm. So... Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Good to hear from you. Beautiful stuff. Yeah, we have David Kamonzynya in the chat box, there's wonderful. Thank you, Dave. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, so be inspired. Be inspired by any point there that resonates. Any word, be it silent, being awareness, any of the words that touches your heart, it is that one life, that one energy, one essence touching itself in the heart to just dance, to play to find itself to to sprinkle us as that lightness and the light in in a form of a of a brightness and in the form of weightlessness both brightness and weightlessness that's the enlightenment we endarken ourselves and then heavy ourselves with the burden of concepts and distractions and wrong beliefs which we just build the of those uh conceptual beliefs and load ourselves down with with ideas and life goes on and it's just so close and it's always available it's always here it's always to be acknowledged in a way recognized in a way because that energy is is a source and an essence of absolutely everything so everything literally could point you out to the source of it which is that emptiness playing through and vibrating into forms here on time scored evidence good to hear you tonight james very good stuff yeah beautiful and you're all on fire tonight well fire is another term for energy or light where you're full of that whole fire and light good well it's there's no one here no it's all consciousness speaking to consciousness about consciousness exactly yeah there's nothing else or the dreaming and i would still like to appreciate and acknowledge everyone who is with us because if you were not with us we would probably you know wouldn't be talking about it is yeah joyous Thank you.

Thank you, Bob. Thank you, everyone. Bye. Thanks, Bob. Thanks, Donna, Kat. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Thank you. Love you all. Bye.