Nonduality on zoom with Sailor Bob, 18/08/2020

I realise by now what we're going to talk about. Talking about no thing. No one talking about no thing to no one. And yet, it's there. There it's appearing. It's appearing as some body talking to some other body or person. So it's an amazing appearance. A phenomenal appearance. And the definition of a phenomenon is that which appears to be. It's only seemingly so. And what's the base of it all? There is nobody sitting there who is unaware. There is awareness there. It's effusing every bad man. It's in shape and form. But you can't say what that awareness is. Give me a description of awareness if you can.

But you can't say it is not. But are you unaware? No. I am aware. That is what you actually are. That is all there is. Is that presence awareness. And we distorted that. And taken on the belief we are separate. We are separate entities. We are individuals. We are persons. So we seem to be separate. And there is an I and a you and a me and this or that. And it's still only the one essence. And that the basis of awareness is existence. In which consciousness appears. What could you say without consciousness? What could you do? Nothing. But the very life essence is that awareness itself.

And there is no one unaware. No one who is unconscious right now. So there is existence. Consciousness. And every seeming pattern, shape and form wants to be or loves to be. You don't want to be out of it right now, do you? So that's what they are telling us. They are telling us for years. Ever since these traditions were formed. Can be traced back to so-called thousands of years. But then again when you look at time, there is no such thing as time. So it's got to be, everything has to be immediate. Has to be right here, right now. Ever fresh. Ever new. And the new can never be old.

When does now begin? Well I'm going to grasp it right now. Right, I got it. But where is it? It's gone. And it's there again. The saying I have it or have not. It hasn't altered it one little bit. Or made any difference. And they tell us that it's ever fresh. Presence awareness. That awareness is present. Sitting in that room. Are you present? Or absent? Well now I'm present. And I'm not unaware. I'm not unconscious. So that's what they've been telling us for years and years and years. What it all is. And it's quite simple to recognise it. But what's made the difference? Well, isn't it the belief we are a person, an individual, a separate entity?

And isn't that belief, a thought, or a concept? It needs something or something to exceedingly express through. So these patterns, shapes and forms, these body, minds and every other pattern, shape and form in the manifestation are all things. It's things. And the screen they appear on is no thing. Put a shape or a form or an edge or a boundary onto space. Find a centre to it. It can't. Try and capture a sound. And hold onto it. So it's silent and still it's empty. But it has that capacity of cognising. Or knowing is another word you can use for that. It is a knowing emptiness.

And the Buddha told you that. When he said emptiness is form. These body, minds are shapes and forms, patterns. And we all, that emptiness, he said, because the form can be nothing other than emptiness. Though it's appearing. And there are many analogies in life pointing out that things are not what they appear to be. The blue sea, for instance, that appears to be blue. Get a bucket of water out of it, it's not blue. The sky appears to be blue. All the sky is, is a space. Sky is another name we put up with. And it appears to be blue in this. But it's not blue.

Space is not blue. The water in the mirror. There appears to be water down the road when the sun's shining on the bitumen and the heat's rising and shimmering. There appears to be a pool of water. Drive up to it. There's nothing there. And you see that. But when was there ever water there? It never ever was. But you drive along again and you might see it again. But actually, you don't have to do that a few times. It's like the horizon where the sea and the sky meets. It seems like the edge of the earth. And people would believe that years ago until it was investigated.

And that's what needs to happen. The false cannot stand up to investigation. So if you've got any false or erroneous beliefs, test them out. Investigate them. Go right into them. And if they're not the fact, they will fall apart. But while we believe in them, they're seemingly real. You see, hypnotists at work. You see, hypnotists at work. You can have people all sorts of things. Believing all sorts of things. And we can be hypnotized by the functioning of this intelligence energy, or nature, or life, whatever label you like to put on it. And to do that, we use words. Words, concepts, ideas, images. All vibrating energy.

And this seeming things, the emptiness, is fused with the innate intelligence. It's enabling to say, pattern, and form these appearances. Label them with different words and take them. And the vibration makes them seemingly real. Like that life in that pattern you call you right now. It's breathing you. You'll say, I'm breathing. But get yourself out of the road. And stop breathing. If you can. How long will you stop for? Sooner or later, you'll have to take a breath. Something that makes you take a breath. It's beating your heart. Are you beating your heart? Pouring fuel into it, what do you want to do with it?

To make sure the heart is pumping? No. The heart is pumping. The blood coursing around the veins. If it didn't have the heat and the energy to course around it, it would coagulate. It would be much good. The brain, it needs an energy to go through it. To bring thoughts, reason, capacity for reasoning, intelligence through it. What could it do without the life essence? When you look at it closely, it says life, what we call life, for awareness, for intelligence, for God, for whatever label you like to put on it, is doing it. It's all spontaneously happening by itself. There's no one out there. Where would he be?

Where would he be located if there was God in the sky? God's in heaven. Where's heaven? Isn't heaven space? Is there any particular point in space? So it is. Or is it suffusing everything? Diffusing everything and everything appearing, all the things that appear in that space. You, me and everything else. Is that one essence? Which I call, for want of a better name, intelligence energy. Not your intellects, when I say intelligence. There are different degrees of intellect. Some of you are smarter than they and smarter than others and some of you are not so smart. That's indeed intellectual. But the innate intelligence is doing that breathing.

It is beating your heart. It's replacing cells in your body. It's growing your hair and your fingernails. Doesn't that imply it's suffused with that intelligence to do those things? Can you take, as Christ says, can you add a cubic to a statue? I thought. Can you make yourself taller by thinking about it? You can't. There's something wrong with that. There's something wrong. That intelligence is life. That's another word for it. Another term for God is life. I am the way. I am the truth and the life. That's what the Christ said. People thought he was talking about himself and said he was mother of something superior or greater.

But it was him who was talking about the life, that sense of presence. Which is within each and every one of you now. There's a sense of presence there. An awareness of presence. Being right here right now. That is the life that he's talking about. Each and every one of you are life. And life can never know death. Pattern shapes and forms appear and play around and disappear. But the animating life that forms and shapes them and suffuses them. And that those patterns can break down because they're only appearance anyway. But that which enabled that appearance to happen has never changed. It is the one essence which is spontaneously, naturally appearing right here, right now.

It doesn't know any time. I tell you again in the scriptures. A thousand years of night sighted like yesterday when it sparked. And a watch in the night. It's gone. But we set it up by giving it a beginning and an end. It tells you in the Bible in the beginning was the word. The word was with God. The word was God. All things were made by him. By the word. There was nothing made that was made. So that's where our problems start when we learn words. What are words? Words are the essence of life. Words are the essence of life. What are words? Have a look.

Break it down. Words are thoughts. Sound. Vibration. Energy. That's all words are. Vibration of energy. Vibrates the sound. The sounds can always be, also be music. They can be all sorts of other things. Explosions. All things. Yeah. It expresses as everything. It's true everything. But it's the one essence always and ever. Realize, recognize, recognize that you've never ever been away from it. Never. It's always been there. But we haven't noticed it. Why? Because most of the population, 99.9% of the population, came to believe in that. And still believe in it. And then never gone any further. But others, like you sitting there, have realized there's got to be a bit more to it than this.

And started to look for something more. And some of you then get stuck into the religious patterns. And think, I've got to do all sorts of this, what do you call it, work to find, get my way out of it. To find the answer. And stay there for years. Meditating. Trying to work it out with the mind. But the answer is not in the mind. And that's what they all tell you. You can think for a thousand years. But you'll never find the answer. Because all my mind is, show me your mind for a start. Tell me what it is. And you'll say there's no such thing as mind.

You can't find anything solid there. That has any substance or any individual. You can say it's the brain. Or the eyes. The brain's not mind. It's the instrument for which the energy vibrates and forms through that energy vibrating, it forms into other vibrations, into thought, feelings and emotions. And the capacity of reasoning is that life itself is needing something to express through. And basically here and now. You are. You are life. Isn't that a fact? You are life. I know I am alive. But again, what have we conditioned ourselves into believing? I am this person that is alive. I am this separate entity. I am this individual.

I am this body-mind. But again, those that have understood it and recognised it in the past will say it's the one essence appearing in the mind. Appearing, patterning, shape and forming and expressing as everything. The one essence. And when we say I and me, we think we're separate entities. We're all just separate, different essence. But it's the one expressing, patterning through everything. And that's what's enlivening you right now. That's what's being you. But then the habit pattern we've taken on. Oh, I'm not good enough. I couldn't be that. I need to become that. I need to practice this. Because the way things are going on in this body, the unhappiness, the despair, the fear, the anxiety, they're not what I want.

They're not what I am. But they really are. Because it's a vibration of energy like everything else. And it vibrates in the opposite. Just like your body is. You know? The air in your lungs is coming in and out. It's vibrating. You're blinking your eyes. That's a movement of energy. You're hearing with your ears. The eardrums are vibrating. But it's never changed its oneness. Never can. Never will. And so this pattern, not only the brain's part, it helps the way you express through. If the body wasn't there, what could you express through? What could you speak? What could you say? What could you do? As the absolute intelligence energy itself, if it didn't break up into seeming patterns, which are only seemingly so, it's never broken up, if it broke up, it wouldn't be the absolute.

Never broken up. But it seemingly divides and breaks up into separate entities, into individuals and the person. And all these things are seeming separate. The trees, the flowers, the birds, the bees, the insects, the persons, the people, the things in it. All of them. all appear as separate. What are they separate from? Seemingly separate from one another. But when you know they are only seeming patterns, can you take any of them outside of space? Can you postulate or think of anything that could be outside of space? What could it be in? It'd have to be in something with it. Then you say it'd be in space.

Do you think you're forming another space? Well it's still only the one space. And that's what they call it. They tell us, give us that. If you look into some of these texts, they call it space like awareness. You know what space is like, you see it all around you. Well the awareness is like that space. Space is empty. It's unmoving. It's got no depth to it, no height to it, no boundaries to it. No beginning or end to it. Try and fly to the end of space or get out of it. You can't. And all this manifestation appears in it. Can't separate it. And you and me and everybody else we seem separate.

But are we? Isn't it the same air that's enlivening that pattern as it is here? Isn't it the same food? It might be different sorts of food but the same. Foods that like, whatever you eat, the vegetables, the fungi or the animals or the birds or whatever you eat, it's all the same essence. The water you drink, isn't it the same hydrogen, oxygen? The same breath you breathe, oxygen. It might be a bit polluted. But you reckon every one of us is all one. Yeah. It's all a different pattern. Yeah. And get the taste of what I'm pointing to. It's always and only and ever that.

And you've always and only and ever been that. And all these fears we carry around us, all the hate, all the envy, all the greediness, the unhappiness, the depression, the guilt, the shame, the remorse, all these conceptual images and the seeming love that doesn't seeming lasting, the joy. Instead of seeing it all in its totality, instead of dividing it up and be that total love and joy. Pause the thought for a while and see what happens then. Without the thoughts going on, it comes up as a spontaneous sense of being well. And that being well can be happiness or joyousness. Take another, put a label on it, leave it there for a little bit longer.

See what rises up. In that stillness, in that silence. But in trying to be still, you put a blockage on it. It stops it from happening. And see it's happening in moments when it's happening all the time. In between breaths, there's stillness. In between your heartbeat before it starts, before it goes on again. There's always little gaps there. And the reorganising of it and see, I'm not going to be the same. I'm not going to be the same. I'm not going to be the same. I'm not going to be the same. I'm not going to be the same. I'm not going to be the same.

In the silence. In the emptiness. In the stillness. Get the taste of it. The taste of it. See what's there. And realise that you've never ever been away from it. And taking on the belief that we are this persona, this body and mind, the thoughts have never ceased. They continue to go on. In stories. Every story has a beginning and end. And then to trying to put it out in the fairy tales where you're telling your children and we used to believe in a lot when we were kids and not so much around now days. Every one of them had a beginning and every one of them had an end.

They all start with once upon a time and then live happily ever after. So that's where it all begins, in time. Now ask yourself this, is there a past if I don't think about it? Ponder on that for a while and you go no, there's no thought I can't say there is a past. And if you think there's a past try and live yesterday, try and live a moment ago or last week. You can't. You can go back and recall what happened to a certain extent but you can't recall it all. And the only actuality you're giving is that is what you're recalling right now.

If there's no thought about the past right now there is no past, realise that. Do the same thing. same with the future. Anticipate and imagine what you're going to do when you leave here or when it goes away. You're going to anticipate and imagine it but you can't live a moment in the future. What's your next thought going to be? What's your next action going to be? Did you know you were going to blink your eyes when you did then? Or if they could. You can anticipate and imagine but you can't live a moment out of this presence awareness. Not a moment. It's always spontaneous and ever fresh presence awareness.

There are statements they use in some of the texts. It is ever fresh, it's ever spontaneous, ever fresh presence awareness. Ever fresh. Ever spontaneous. Not static or not old, not past or future. It's always a change. Remind yourself that whenever possible if you're stuck in the thoughts. Start in the story. This story had a beginning and if you're recalling it now it's something from the past. Something that might have happened 10 minutes ago or yesterday or something you might imagining and anticipating what you did. Something to somebody that they're going to retaliate and it's going to happen at some future time. We've lost ourselves in concept of time.

And we see these by the time we're going to leave. In our bodies they're aging. Seem to be aging. And we put time on that. But then again you have got to go vis a past event and imagine the future time of it, not realising they're aging right in this moment. It's going on so spontaneously that it's not noticed that there are thousands of cells dying in your body right now and being replaced. Through fresh thoughts, new thoughts coming up, ideas, images, concepts, feelings, tastes. Constantly transient but it's not time bound because it's spontaneous. Spontaneous means it's beginningless. When does now begin? Rasmussen said right now and even though he said that it's ending but it's beginning again and it's ending again.

No duration. It's all the time is a duration, the beginning and the end. So as Masagada says, realize you are the birthless and deathless one without a second. Always and ever be that. This body is just a shell which is in there. Which is in the earth. Which is in the earth. Which is in the earth. Which is a housing that intelligents energy, the life force which needs a pattern to express through. And so the epitaphs from way back. Loving friends when you be wise and dry. Straight away every weeping eye. What you see upon the bear is not worth a single tear. It is like a seashell, one out of which the pearl is gone.

The shell is nothing. It's just a nothing. Leave it there. The pearl, the all, the soul is here. Next time you see or somebody near you and needs his eyes, put that on. The essence or the pearl is here. Always and ever. Different patterns, different shores. But it's never been separated from the totality, the absolute. I am that absolute. And you can say that also. I am that sense of presence. Out of all, I can't stand anything. Yeah, I would not teach you how to do something you cannot do. I always said it to you are that process of love from which everything in the universe, something keep you alive for until our next birth.

Nothing right now comes to you at all. That's just, that's what we're, what we're taught here at The WordüTourINEChrist.net. Where is I ever and there have always been their presence. There those doubts again and see if they're true or not. The false can't stand up to investigation. Realize that. And if you are alive right now and relating to a false entity, investigate that and see if it's true or not. Because that false or individual entity that's causing all your problems. It's only me that can be fearful. Only me that can be unhappy. Only me that can be forced to have remorse or guilt. Me is the cause.

And the effects are this erroneous belief. So Bob. Yes. This me that says, I see. Yeah. If it is seen, can it be the one that sees? No. Yeah, the me that says I see is seen. It's a... It's a... Yeah, the see has become an object. It's not just the I see. It's me, the object that thinks it's seen. Yeah. It's on the table. But can the thought of I see actually see? No. So the seeing is the natural function. Yeah. It's so obvious when that I is seen. The I that says I see is seen. It's an object to the natural seeing. That is there.

It's really just a mistaken identity that the seeing identifies with that I that says I see. I hear. I do. I feel. Yeah. There's a story. Have you heard the story about the lady that lost a necklace? You know? The lady that loses a necklace and, you know, she goes to her friends and goes, terrible, I've lost my necklace. And her friends go, I've heard of this guy. And he's brilliant. He's famous at finding necklaces. You should go and see him, you know? And this lady wanders off and she finds this guy who's very famous for finding necklaces. And she meets with this fellow and he just says straight to her, she goes, I've lost my necklace.

Can you help me? And the fellow says to her, feel it, feel on your neck. And she feels her neck and she feels the necklace. And she feels this overwhelming sense of joy that she's found the necklace. This fellow has pointed it out and helped her find this necklace and she feels a sense of elation. But did she find the necklace or was the necklace was always there? You know, the fellow just pointed out just the natural, obvious facts. Just feel for your neck. Feel the necklace. It's there. You know, and there's an obvious and this sort of goes to the point where people are looking for an experience of what they are.

You know, when am I going to have an experience and know that this is what I am? And there can be a seeming sense of an experience when you feel the necklace. Wow, I found the necklace. The necklace was never lost. That's right. You know? All this fellow points out is, you know, is the necklace is there. But I think it's just a wonderful story that points out that what we're seeking is always a fact. And there may be a sense of elation when that fact is recognised. But it's not an experience, you know, like a... Yeah, anyway. I just thought I'd share that story.

That's beautiful. And what you're saying, an overwhelming sense of joy and elation. Yeah. You find it. Yeah. So it's that close in recognising what's already there. It was never lost. It was just overlooked or... Yeah. But an interesting twist or the aspect of that little story is if she has never lost the necklace, she wouldn't give a shit. She wouldn't give up. She wouldn't feel the elation. She wouldn't appreciate it. She wouldn't enjoy it. The whole... The twist of that recognition that, you know, awakening is only possible when you fall asleep first. And coming back to your true nature is only possible if you previously believed you moved away from it.

That's why the elation of the recognition, the losing that burden of that imaginary self, is so precious. Because we lost that seemingly lost that necklace first. Because if it was around all the time, who would be bothered even noticing? That's why the animals don't seem very enlightened or very blissful because of their enlightenments. Because they didn't develop narrative self. They didn't develop a world made of images in the head. The overlay of imagination and knowledge. Imagination and meaning making. Really, it all comes down. We as humans, we're wonderful storytellers. Yes. And that's what we excel at. We have an intellect and we have this intellect and this imagination that can take us to the moon and can create wonderful things.

But it can also turn on us when that story turns dark and we identify with the story as what we are. And so it's a double-edged sword. It's a wonderful gift, the intellect. But when it's brought into the story of what we are, and it's very simply put, what we are is not a story. When someone asks you, who are you? And you go, well, I'm Jamie and I was born, I grew up here and I did this and these are my interests. That's not what you are. As soon as you go into a story, you've moved away from it. Beautiful. And the stories become endless.

That's the problem. Yeah. And the story is wrong most of the time anyway. Like what, my story that I have about myself is, I guarantee it's vastly different to the story that you have about me or my other friends or my parents or whatever. Because we're very selective about the little bits of information that we add on to this story. That I see myself as, you know, a little bit shy and I like music and someone might see me as like, oh, he's stuck up and he's blah, blah, blah. It's all, none of it's true. It's all just very selected things that we take on board.

Most of it we forget. But it's, none of it has any relevance to what we are, which is the seeing of that story. And when the story is seen, it's quite funny because it's seen as, it's really a dreaming. The story of what we are is a dream. It's no different from our nighttime dreams. And when it is seen as an object to what we are, it's so relieving and humorous that we were so, so, so invested in something that was just really a dream. It's just a dreaming. It's not even a dream. It's just a dreaming process that goes on. And the dreaming process can go on.

But once it's seen as an object, it can never pull you back in. You're never going to go and try to get that bucket of blue water from the ocean again once it's seen. It's wonderful. And then life can go on and you can still, the story can go on. And it's wonderful. The story can still be relevant. You can still have your story and other people have their stories. But it no longer has that heaviness to it where it pulls you in. You know, it's a wonderful, that's the liberation. It's the liberation from the story of me. Because there is no me. It's just a mental process that's creating an ongoing narrative that's trying to pull you into a sense of belief.

But it's, There's no wordless story. No. And what we are is non-conceptual. And when that's recognised, the obvious fact of that is recognised. That's the peace that the seeker is looking for, but the seeker can never have. And that dreaming, you know, we're not dreaming. We're not dreaming. We're not the dreaming. It's dreaming. So it can be dreaming you as a seeker or it could be dreaming you as the next Hitler. So you never know how that dream's going to turn out. So that was something that was hard for me to grasp or to accept was that I'm not doing the dreaming either. No. You know, you're the awareness of it.

But you're not doing the dreaming either. So you could dream yourself awake and, you know, the dream can dream itself awake or it could keep dreaming it's asleep. Yeah. We can take that dream character out of the picture altogether. All together. It's only when the dreaming is related to a dreamer. The dreaming of itself is not an issue. It's the implication that there's a dreamer. There's an entity that's doing the dreaming. The dreaming is just happening. The dreaming is just the same as the seeing and the thinking. Yeah. It's verbing. It's just a happening. And it's amazing how all those stories that we have about ourselves are constantly changing.

Like if there was one me that finally discovered something solid, why would I have so many concepts even throughout the day? You know, like if you are not anymore, but I used to have a stories like I was unworthy because I broke glass or because I had a period and I was frustrated and angry. So I hated myself. But then five minutes later, well, I did something right. And it was and I was fine. I was average. I wasn't too bad. And then the concept of me having certain skills or having or not having any at all. And throughout the day, that very story would be a story about, you know, the dream.

Yeah. And then the story about, oh, my gosh, how many versions of one me or how many completely, completely fresh and new different stories that are almost like a costume in which that life presents itself. Right now, I am a woman. That's who I am. OK. Five minutes later, I'll be a mother. That will be who I am. Completely different identity. So this identity, you can't even say it's really yours. It's part of the dreaming. No. There's the me. There's the me. There's the me that in the evening says, tomorrow morning, I'm going to get up and I'm going to go for a run and I'm going to get up early and enjoy the day.

And then there's the me that wakes up at 8 o'clock in the morning and goes, bugger it, I'm going to stay in bed today. You know. There's no consistency. There's no consistency to it at all. And once it's got to be a dead giveaway that that me is just shifting and changing like the sands through the day. and day after day it's beliefs they all come and go and and there's no problem with that and but the problem is when there is believed to be an entity there that's identified with those thoughts then there's the guilt and the shame and the suffering that comes up because i didn't get out of bed and i'm so bloody weak and whatever rather than just the seeing of that it just sees that process that happening that verbing coming and going and then there's a peace with whatever's arising it can't ever it can't ever affect what you are there's no there's no um no buying into that that energy of belief can no longer go in into that so the guilt and the shame and all the psychological suffering that that arises because of the belief in that entity just goes and it it's uh it really is and that that me doesn't that story of me doesn't have to change but the energy of belief can no longer go into it and when that happens then there's it's just the end of that psychological guilt shame pride whatever that used to arise with that that belief in that buying into the story of me there's no me when my interest is not in myself itself there's no me seeing the me and the belief is not the actual nah the actual is this non-conceptual ever-fresh presence awareness when i was younger i was studying gurdjieff and he had a concept an idea or illustration of that whole process saying that the whole body-mind is like a house or legion in that house of different me's and one at a time goes in charge and then one me gets in charge and says okay I'm gonna quit smoking tomorrow and tomorrow there will be another me who is not gonna obey that promise and then another one comes and says oh look you had such a hard day have a glass of wine or have a chocolate and then an hour later after you had your glass of wine and a chocolate another me goes takes a charge and say yeah you fucking idiot why would you do that and you're gonna be fat and unhealthy and that is constantly changing that whichever thought comes in charge it presumes that there is an I in the thought and that presumption of an I and belief into an I brings the I into existence and the I seems real but not one I hundreds of them yeah and that doesn't have to change but if there's and that won't change because the thoughts are gonna arise and and depending on what day it is and what you had for breakfast and if you had a cup of coffee that that's all gonna just change you know and the thought the thought has no power to do anything there's no power to to create that it's only the belief in the entity it says that's me having those thoughts I'm the I'm the I I'm the I I'm the I'm the I am the I am the I am the I am the I am the I am the I am the thinker then you're invested in thought so you you feel the guilt because you had the cigarette and then you feel the pride because you haven't smoked for 10 days or whatever and you go i did that the eye you know and it's but all that can go on and it's it doesn't it doesn't matter it does it's just seen it's constantly seen and it can't generate that kind of uh the story can't can't get any traction if there's nobody there interested in it you know it's like a you you need that interest and attention in the story to generate the attraction to get the story get that wheel spinning you know but after a while the wheel just loses momentum and just uh comes to a stop you know yeah yeah and when you see everything you're like oh my gosh just the dead mechanical patterns like you know even though you see true and you know there is no me there is just the habitual thoughts 90 of yesterday thoughts are gonna reappear today because they kind of programmed this way and the thoughts of anger or the thoughts of disappointment or the thoughts of judgment but who cares if they're not yours who cares if they're impersonal they can be as ugly or as pretty and if there is no one to judge them as ugly or pretty they just basically they just don't get any fuel they don't they don't they don't they don't thrive they not not fueled with the attention of belief they just move on like clouds in that in that open space of what we are of awareness everything is allowed the the belief in the me this contraction that happens is like a laser light on these thoughts and and it's like everything's excluded except for this little generated story but once that's seen as false that the opening up which was always open anyway it's the contractions only ever an idea as well but that opening up everything everything's allowed you know the thoughts the feelings that come through the body the situations that are happening in your daily daily life you know all this there's a lot of stuff going on now and it's all free to come and go in that space of awareness this the sword sword can't cut it fire can't burn it water can't drown it the wind can't dry it the virus can't infect it yeah and we habitually attach to the idea that no you only you can't have judgmental thoughts you can't have negative thoughts and the society tells you precisely what's negative and you have to believe it you have to take it on board and obey well if you're having negative thoughts if you're having negative thoughts it's a problem but if negative thoughts are happening exactly yeah what is it a problem for that's right but that's the main thing to see the thought has no power got no power whatsoever make yourself an inch taller by taking your thoughts as christ told you to do push your view by taking thought can add one inch to his statue you can't right nothing good or bad with thinking likes and so yeah it's only the thought is we give singing power when we put the belief that they have some power the judgment is always in a relation it's always relative so if there is a thought or there is a feeling and the feeling gets label and the label get evaluated it is always compared to certain standards to actually be evaluated so it's always relative so if there is no relating it to anything nothing has any color nothing has any like plus or minus charge whatever it's everything is just as it is it's completely neutral it simply comes down to the fact that if you believe that you're the owner of the thoughts and the thoughts have the ability to own you ownership if you take uh you relate those thoughts to an entity that's thinking those thoughts then of course if thought comes up that i'm not good enough or i'm a bad person or whatever then if you think that you're the one thinking those thoughts as an eye thinking them then they have a lot of power they have that power but once they're once that once that hot iron is taken out of the fire it realizes that without and if there is a thought uh in it without the energy from the fire which is us yeah awareness that the thoughts taken out of the fire have none of the none of that power at all to to burn or to to to do anything it's only the belief which has taken from what we are that that those thoughts have any any power to burn if you believe you're the thinker then the the thoughts ownership over them then they'll hurt, they'll burn.

Once they've seen that they're just an arising in what you are, you're free of them for good. Yeah. And that Kat mentioned relating. Well that's where all the problems come from, the relationship, relativity is dualism. Yeah. We're relating to the me or this sort of thing, we're relating to something. And that's dualism. Leave it as it is, just in the one without a second. No clues to what to do. Relationship is duality. And we get locked in these male-female relationships too, not realising. That's the cause of all that problem. If you're not relating to them, if you're really loving them and going with them, merging together without relating, you're going to get rid of a lot of problems.

Oh yeah. You don't even get rid of the problems, the problems just no longer arise. That's right, yeah. You just notice one day, problems don't seem to be around anymore. Yeah, look at that creature there behind Bob. She doesn't have any concepts, any fears. She doesn't have any ideas around the future because she doesn't imagine the future. So she doesn't know whether her business is going to bankrupt or how long and how debilitating the lockdown is going to be because she doesn't have concepts. She's in non-conceptual awareness all the time. Same, she doesn't have concepts about how inferior or inadequate she is because she doesn't remember her past.

She doesn't have a collection of her failures to brood upon, or how much that happened. But she knows where she'll get a feed in the morning. Oh yeah, she is quite controlling. Oh, she knows how to put her under the thumb. She's got this very, very high-pitched squeak which completely steers the oxytocin when we do anything. That's why she's so overweight, it's so hard to refuse her anything. But that is such a demonstration of non-conceptual awareness because, as Jamie, as you said, the great gift that reasoning is, wonderful, wonderful gift of creativity and wonderful door to possibilities that the creative imagination and thinking and the poetry and art and civilization, all of it gives, yeah, it also backfires because it makes objects of everything.

And not only the symbolic language allows us to put symbols on things and operate them in the memory, but it also makes us think. But it also makes us to put a symbol on ourselves and make ourselves to an object. And rather than an unknown mystery, now we are a thing, a body or the mind or the ego, whatever it is. I mean, even the identification with the emotional self or the most precious values that are, of course, mine are better than yours and I'm ready to go on the street and kill for them because they're so mine. Those are all consequences of the symbolic language because those are the ways in which we are adding all that symbols to create the identity.

And I think it was the Beatles that sung that song, you know, Nothing you can sing can't be sung, nothing you can do can't be done. Every idea and concept and belief that we hold is being given to us. Yeah. You know, it's all given to us and it's all conditioning that we pick up when we read something, when nothing's really original. It's just regurgitated yet we hold those beliefs and take them to be so personal. You know, it's really my belief. I feel strongly about this. It's just something that's being given to us. It's just a... And you can... If you look back at your life and you think of things that maybe 10 or 20 years ago that were so important to you and beliefs that you held that are just not there anymore, that are just not there now, you know, like political beliefs and ideas about the world and that that you held that turned out to be wrong and they're just not there.

But at the time when you held them, they were like... They were the truth. This is the truth. And why can't everybody see this truth? And there is no truth in concepts. Whatever can be spoken as a concept, no concept is truth. The only truth there is is the fact of beingness, of that sense of I am. And that's... The only truth is that which doesn't change. And what we are doesn't change. But all those beliefs and those concepts through our life are just constantly being thrown out. And you want to take a new ones on board and getting rid of that. And... But we take them to be so personal.

These are my beliefs and I hold this to be true. And I'll fight to the death to defend this concept, you know. But they all come and go. But what we are doesn't come and go. And that's the distinction. That's the discrimination that needs to be looked at. Yeah. Yeah. So... So you're making me laugh, if I may. Today, my husband does a little bit of handiwork, you know, around the house. And he did this little piece of wood. And I happened to be in the room and I looked at this piece of wood that he did. And I'm a control freak. Or I was.

Or one of me is. Or one of the eyes is. You know, whatever. And I looked at this piece of wood and it's like, it's not perfect. You know, it's not painted. You know. And I looked at it and I went, oh, who cares? Doesn't matter. You know. That's not me anymore. I don't... It's not important. Let it go. And I let go. Like, it's not important. And I walk away. Fine, fine. My husband comes home. And I'm sitting there and I go, oh, by the way, that piece of wood's not done properly. So we get the torch. He says, we get the torch. And I go, oh, my God.

I'm going to go and get it. He says, we get the torch. We get the torch. Because at night, you can't see it from it. And we're looking. And in this light at night, it looks perfect. And I'm standing there with the torch thinking, what the fuck am I doing? He's standing here with a torch, criticising somebody else's work. I cuckoo. Yeah. It's good to laugh when you see all the patterns and you don't... I did. I did. You just laugh. So I love what you're saying. I love what you're saying. And the way you've said it, Jamie. It's beautiful. Beautiful. And that's all you do.

What I've begun now is I laugh at everything now. There you go. I do the craziest things. I'll chase my husband because he hasn't done this right or he hasn't done that or I don't know. I'll be chasing him and I'm in the middle of chasing to tell him off, you know, or something like that. And then I just stand and look at myself and go, God, you're an idiot. This is funny. You know, this is just funny. You know? It's so freeing. And I mean, don't give it up. And I mean, don't get me wrong. Tomorrow I might go back. I will. Or tomorrow morning I'll wake up in the morning and it'll be that controlling bitch again.

You know, she'll be at it, you know, whatever, in whatever way. Or the frustration or the voices. The voices will come, you know? And I might forget. And I'll be the voice of frustration, of anger, and I'll act it all out. And then hopefully one minute I might wake up and laugh while it's happening, you know? It's nice. It's just so freeing. Well, wait a little bit. Don't project. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Bob. You might be around. You might be very loving and joyful. Oh, that'd be nice. I'll live in hope. Ultimately, it doesn't matter which pattern shows up. If you are emptiness, the freedom which is laughing at the patterns, whether it's a positive pattern or it's a negative pattern, they know that you're there.

And I'm like, oh, I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm happy. I'm happy. Mommy loves you. Oh, and I do love that because the negative, I noticed it the other day again, that the voice of frustration. Sorry, judgment. The voice in my head. I saw this incredible judgment of something or someone. And normally the other voice comes in and says yes, you're really bad. Like, oh, you know, who do you think you are? Who are you. The judge, somebody, you know. Just the whips come out.

But this time the voice, you know, I heard judgment. Oh, that person. He's ugly or not wearing the right clothes. Or. or the voice came and I just went, oh yeah, thanks for sharing. Well, you know, I just, whatever. I didn't, I'm no more whipping. You know, hey, you shouldn't think that, you shouldn't do that. It's just, you know, it's not true. Exactly. There's something, it's just knowing it's not true. And it means nothing and not taking ownership. Like he said, it's just words. Yep. It's just words coming, coming in the head, you know? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Beautiful. Yeah, don't take anything personally, don't give anything and importance on, you're free.

That's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And then enjoy the show because this is a magnificent play. You know, you are in a fun park of the highest quality because everything is 3D or 4D completely convincing and fully engaging. You know, it's like, it's not, you're not an observer. the cinema watching somebody else's life you are participating fully at the same time and you will be awake to the play being the director and the actor and the observer and the viewer and everything yes yes we can't hear you yeah you are you okay thanks bob yeah um no i'm good thank you and uh just a question if i may uh where does the love come in um in in this realm if i may where white comes love love love is life life is love you love to be right right right um can you expand on that it's an affectionate awareness that's full of affection right right okay um i guess i'm looking for more here see you've got the concept of the opposite of love and hate no i i guess what i'm i'm getting at here is um in um sorry um for for those of us that are not awake um how does that change when it's particularly in regards to love here, how does that change when one does become awake?

Well, all the concepts you had about the other, you might see them in a different light. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to get at. What is this differentiation? Can I have a go at it, Bob? Yes. Please, Donna. All right. Okay. Well, it was very clear to me when there was a disappearing of the body, mind, and universe, and all that was left was awareness and this loving energy. And the best way to describe this loving energy that's expressing is everything, expressing is the universe, our bodies, our thoughts, is everything, the dreaming, the seeing. The best word I could find was unconditional, meaning no conditions.

So as body, minds, we have conditions, concepts, and definitions, shoulds and shouldn'ts, biases, concepts of what this love would look like. So we have rules and boundaries and limitations on that love, and it's very needy. So in the human realm, it's going to express conditionally, but because it's a dualistic world and our true nature is all, unconditional love, then anything can appear. There's not going to be the judgment that this is good or bad or right or wrong or this is Hitler and this is Mother Teresa. It's all inclusive. There's nothing exclusive. So our nature is unconditional love, meaning anything and everything is possible, is happening, any potential.

It's full potentiality and possibilities, no conditions, no restrictions whatsoever. So I love that. I like to use the word unconditional when I think of love, but as a human, our love is very conditional. If I may ask, Donna, that's quite a wonderful description. Does it have limits too? In the duality and the dreaming, it can because it can be anything. And in the non-duality realm? There's no conditions. And no limits? But that's your nature anyway. But yes. And ultimately, that's your condition anyway, but it's appearing as conditional. Yeah, yeah. But you are unconditional love, but you're looking for this bliss and joy and whatever your concepts are about that love.

It's usually there are humans' ideas of that love. The mind won't understand because it's looking for, it thinks it's looking for unconditional love, but it's very conditional. So what you are is beyond the mind. It's beyond this expression. Because you are that love expressing as everything. You are what you're looking for, but you're thinking it's somewhere else and it's something else. You have a concept about what it is, but you're already that. Can I just ask, did you have this experience yourself? Yes. Wow. Yes, and it's happening now, but our mind wants to say it's something else. The story wants to say it's something else.

Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you. Thank you. You also have that experience. You're having it, but you just don't see it because you expect love to be pleasure. That is our bias, that we think that love is something pleasurable, and bliss is something pleasurable. What Donna beautifully said right now, you know, the unconditionality of that love means that everything in that field of consciousness is allowed. And that includes the death of the babies, the cancer, the suffering, the poverty. All of it is unconditionally accepted. All is good. There is nothing. So this is love which doesn't differentiate between pleasure and pain. And as that consciousness, if you look around, you already see that.

You already see that suffering is being allowed unconditionally. Pleasure is being allowed unconditionally. You're experiencing it right now. This is the peace which underlies and allows everything to be just as it is. And look around. It is already happening. It is already there. It's only the overlay of the person or so-called person or identification of the person which comes on top and says, look, this is good, this is bad. This should happen. This shouldn't happen. But life as it is is already expressing that unconditional allowance, acceptance, love. And that's who you are. And that acceptance is part of the path forward for us. Yeah. People.

People say, look at the world. You know, this is it. This is it. What's happening? Is it? Well, what's happening in this world? Bombs, war, beauty, love. It's all here. You know, when you open your eyes and you look, you can't help but see that bomb go off. You can't help but see that beautiful act of kindness. So the seeing doesn't differentiate between good and bad. It's the story that we add to what's happening, to what we're seeing, to the dreaming. That's where the suffering comes in. And plus, when you add the I that is happening to me, that compounds it even more. But you're seeing everything as it is.

But then the mind comes in and divides it and categorizes it and labels it. So it's as Kat said so well, it's already happening. This is it. But we're saying, no, no, it's got to be beautiful all the time. But this is unconditional love expressing. Wow. Thank you. And the story, which is quite tragic, is that, no, this is not it yet. I'm not seeing through the eyes of love. I'm seeing through the eyes of a person. I am still a person. One day I will stop being a person. But right now I still am. That's a belief. You cannot possibly be a person. It is impossible.

Everything is that life expressing. And so are you. You can't be excluded. It's only a thought. It's like, you know, it's like we believe, what Jamie was saying, that our beliefs are changing throughout life. You know, you might have the beliefs around some dietary things, you know, that this food is good or not. Where are they now? The same applies to the belief of being somebody, being limited, confined, contracted, being inside the head or inside the body. The body is just a mouthpiece. It is just a vehicle of expression. Without the body, you wouldn't see because the body has the eyes. So you need the body.

You need the eyes. You need the lips to speak. But it doesn't mean you are the eyes or the lips. So you're not the body. You're not inside the body. The body is inside of you. You are the consciousness. And within yourself, you gave yourself that face with that hose for the looking, hose for hearing, and hose for seeing. . Great. Thanks, Kat. There's a beautiful quote, and I believe it was Nisargadatta. And I've heard Bob say it too, actually. Is that to love the dream, love all of it, or none of it at all? Yep. The rest will be done for you. Yep. Everybody loves to be.

So life is love itself. Thanks, Bob. Yeah. Nisargadatta. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's another quote that says, when you realize you are that living love, people will come to you and do. Yes. Be what's recognized there. If they're seeking for it, they'll come to you and find it. So it's got to be passed on. Thank you. Thank you. It's a beautiful concept, love. And it's just such a beautiful topic to explore. But you can actually see how many concepts grew around that topic. topic how dangerous that word is because people have such a strong expectation the sense of bliss or the heart experience exactly how true how many conditions we put on it has to be pleasurable it has to be good for humans doesn't need to be good for mosquitoes does it it's such an incredible concept but and I would say as a concept energy or that love expressing is everything I mean everything nothing's excluded and and that's what love is you know truly there's there's no nothing's excluded you know the sky doesn't differentiate between a bomb and a flock of geese going by it allows everything in the sky thank you and the self-evidence of that loving to be is the existence I mean you know everything that exists exists because it's been loved into existence it's been allowed to be and that you know it's been allowed to be and that you know if there was a loving-to-be there wouldn't be a being it's almost they call it like three aspects of the one such an anda being consciousness and bliss or longing to be they are three aspect this is just one or not even one because you can't even say whether it exists or it doesn't but it appears to be in in in the reality it is a pure empty space but it appears as myriads of forms and those myriads of force forms they exist because of the loving-to-be.

loving to be so that Bob's books he's called only that yet with only that so that must be love it's just another concept another concept that we use for that for the light for beingness for God it's just it's a it's another concept that we use what most of us generally think of when we say love is like what Bob said in a dualistic nature which is the opposite of hate yeah love I can love you now and then in years time that's an emotional that's like you said cat it's a it's a form of pleasure yes love in itself is just another expression for the limitless nature of love of what we are which is whole and I think as fellow asked is there any limit to love well is there any limit to limitlessness it's just it's another concept that we that we used to point to to to the reality what is is is only that you can call it that you can call it love and call being you can call it odd none of those are actually it yeah and Jesus gave you a good hint to the definition of description of love it doesn't judge it doesn't have boundaries it forgives and he also says to love your enemy like who in the same mind identified as the human pattern would love their enemies I mean who would love the coronavirus or rats or someone who is just shooting them in Auschwitz wouldn't wouldn't you say that that sort of love is like what that other lady is talking about it is the acceptance that arises it's it's it's allowed to arrive because whatever is arising he's just accepted it as arising in that love in that sense of beingness which is there there's no judgment of I want this but I don't want that and I'm taking this and pushing that away and I'm not going to do it again.

I'm not going to do it again. I'm not going to do it again. I'm not going to do it again. I'm not going to do it again. That's why sometimes I think about it in a way that it's all just allowed to be as it arises that unconditional acceptance of not wanting one over the other that all is that there is only that. Yeah yeah when you withdraw your identification from the personal self with the personal agenda personal dreams and personal games and you relax into that space what judgement does the space hold? space have it doesn't what preferences does the space have it doesn't have any we are the space we we don't even relax into it it's really yes that's that's all there is yeah you just relax you're thinking just on that if I may is there so there seems to be a correlation between space and consciousness does that correct yeah all pointing to the same thing God consciousness love space awareness emptiness illness silence source thousands of words thousand ordinary awareness supreme all of it they just because ultimately everything is one so we constantly the same one is it David yes yes that's it Jamie what do you see directly in front of your eyes what do you see directly in front of your eyes right now a computer screen and your image imprinted on that and and Bob and cats and everyone else is closer you say that what is what is actually directly in front of your eyes right now is emptiness is empty space exactly that that's right I was just thinking in that brief interlude that that the space is like the screen in which the whole joystick realm is is just duplicated upon if you will you know places is prior to the objects that are exactly yeah yeah yeah I'd agree I'd agree but is that like consciousness too is that like you know space is sort of a part of our dualistic realm but but consciousness can't can't be viewed but in a way is it like sorry it's space-like space like okay that's that's answering the question yeah thank you thank you John they call it sometimes sky like awareness also space like awareness yes but it it's a I mean space itself is something I'd contemplated a little bit on you know prior to this and and you know it's so necessary in the dualistic realm isn't it because without it you know nothing would be different you're insulated that there would be no separation between anything and therefore wouldn't exist you know so it's such a necessary element and yet you know it's so overlooked you know by people and you can see how the space is completely dependent on your senses close your eyes close your ears and there is no more space the space time the space depends on the senses of the body on functioning of the brain time depends on thinking when you stop thinking time disappears when you stop perceiving space disappears but see happens even in the dream when you sleep at night create space.

Yes. Out of your mind comes the whole new universe with its space, its time, its actions there, all happens out of thin air. True, true it does. How real is this? Exactly. And then it emerges back into ourselves when we wake up or so-called wake up. Exactly and the whole universe with that space that we are experiencing right now, falls itself out and disappears as you go to sleep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the mind, the time also disappears in the deep phase of the sleep, it's all gone. It does, it does. But there is something that never changes, reality is that which never changes. The reality is that in which the time and space come and go.

That's who you are because you are there prior to the time and space. Yeah. So you can't be limited to the body because the body is growing in that. It is, it is. It comes, it goes and drops off like a bud on a tree. Yeah. Or a flower or whatever. And constantly, you know, the bricks of that house are constantly being replaced and changed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's an aspect to what we are that is no different to when we were a child. We all innately recognise that. Even if you ask somebody that's not, has no interest in non-duality and you say to them, you know, isn't there a sense that there was a sense of what I am that was when I was a child that is there now that is unaltered?

You know, you can, you walk past and as you age, the body ages and sometimes you walk past a mirror and you forget that you see the... Tell me about it. You know, like all that's changing, but there's a sense of aspect of what we are that is unchanged, that doesn't feel that, that is ageless, birthless, deathless. You can, you can, you can point out to anybody that has no interest in this and they, everyone innately recognises that there is that aspect of ourself and that is, is continuous and unchanged. Even though this body isn't the same body that we had a couple of years, it isn't the same body that we had when this meeting started, but you know, you can go back seven years and it's, there's not one atom in this body that was there seven years ago, but there's the, there's a sense of what we are at our core, which is unchanged.

So how could that be connected to the body? You know, it has to be prior to the body and the body is an object appearing, coming and going. Just as the thought, you know, the body is an object appearing, coming and going, just as the thought, this sense of me with the beliefs is the same thing. It's coming and going, the body coming and going, it's young, it's getting older, it's aging, it's getting sick and eventually will die. But we all recognise innately that sense of what we are that is ageless, you know, and it becomes more apparent as we get older, as the body ages and we like, oh, cripes.

Thanks. Thanks, John. Thanks, John. Thanks, John. Thanks, John. Bob has a nice quick pointer to this one. I really like that. He would ask you, do you remember, let's say your first day at school? Oh, yeah. How do you remember? There's nothing from that day here as well that was back there. Nothing, not one cell, not one thought. Your self concept was different. Your ideas of yourself were different. Your body was different. But something was there to remember that it was the same. What was there to be? And back then, what was that? And why? And when you said that it was not something that I knew, what is that that was there back then when your first day at school?

And what is there now? Because that is the answer. That is the ultimate answer. That is that what was there was pure being, knowing. And that is just as true. When we were, just after we were born too, there was some element of consciousness, just, you know, still there. Yeah. That time of birth. That's right. But then you can't relate to it because you don't remember. remember it no and it's non-conceptional non-conceptional as well is that right yeah we don't form memories really until we start to develop language yeah but it's still still within us it's still there yeah the being now never changes the body changes in it so the being knowing the the awareness presence is still it doesn't con you know it doesn't contain it is not it is not that it was and it is it is timeless yeah it's not that it lasts long since we are since we were born it is still there the same thing because the time appears in it and equally true when our body so-called dies or does die you know but still our our essence goes on yeah the essence is not even ours it doesn't it's not even ours yeah that's that's right that's a mistake isn't it whether it whether it does or doesn't doesn't matter that the most important thing is that i am now that i am now is there all thinking about what happens after the death of the body or for this is really unimportant because the only peace can be experienced presently as that presence and as that presence in the immediacy is already whole complete full limitless that love whatever you want to call it and uh everything else beyond that beyond the death of the body whatever is just all conceptual it's not really important what's important is the presence for now yeah you can actually see how uh when the body drops dead how this is precisely what is not happening so how are you kind of conceptually leaving that present moment here now that only a life valid present moment and you engage with the imagination because that projection of the future what happens tomorrow what happens when i die is precisely what this what is not what is not happening it is yeah yeah yep it's amazing how attractive it is though how seductive it is yeah yeah sure it's funny to me that's afraid of dying that the sense of being an independent entity that's the only one that wants to know about dying because it's the one that's afraid of its own non-existence mm-hmm yep yep yep yep sure good point and also even the concept of ceasing to exist is unthinkable that's why it's scary but it's it's totally invalid this is just so ridiculously invalid that even engaging in trying to imagine it is just another way of engaging with the mind and conceptually leaving this moment of what's happening cat wouldn't you want you have to say to even to go there you have to create create a future yeah well you have to create time to even ask that question and once you've created time you're off into the story again and get back into the dream yeah that's that's precisely what being asleep is being awake is to break up from the daydream of future and past being asleep is to dream daydream or night dream about other time and other place than here now you know i think it's interesting that when you identify yourself as that which comes and goes then you have been born and will die but when you know yourself to be the eternal awareness and the energy and love when you actually have that recognition then the sense of the body coming and going isn't fearful at all it's kind of like are you afraid to go to sleep at night because you give up everything you willingly crawl into that bed knowing that you're going to forget everything that your body doesn't exist nothing exists it's just it's it appears it's it's not there it's just gone and you willingly give it up every night yeah and somebody asked me one time are you afraid to die and i'm like well are you afraid to go to sleep at night i'm like no i look forward to it to me it was i wake up refreshed and i feel like i've 30 getting used to the new feeling of exchanged thoughts just like i've been somewhere good and i want to go back there again you know and i find myself napping and sleeping often during the day but in that in that sleep there's not that memory you know and there's not that time so there's no story to tell so we're just missing out on the stories you know all that coming and going but you're that space and that peace that all this is happening in so to me that's death nice thank you yeah we arrived at nine um thank you very much bob thank you kat thank you thank you thank you thank you everyone thank you jamie thank you thank you