Sailor Bob and Kats on nonduality, 26.07.2020

Hi everyone, hope you're okay. Can't see you from here. I can see, yeah, I can see Kat on the other side. Well, it's the same thing we point to all the time and you might get bored with the way it expresses but when it's only the one essence, it's only all we can talk about, what they call non-duality. Non-duality meaning one without a second, not two. So if it's not two, it's only the one. We keep pointing to the one. It needs to be recognized as that is the base of all the seeming things that appear in it. And it never changes. And the pattern, shapes and forms in which it vibrates, that's the essence.

And as they come and go, they're not the real. Like, you know, saying you go outside of the morning, it is the morning over here, you see clouds in the sky. They're not the same clouds that were there yesterday. The sky's not the same. Not the same clouds that were half an hour ago or an hour ago. There can be birds flying across them also, planes flying over, wind. Moving across them, moving the trees and everything else. Basically, it's always the same screen. Like every movie you've ever watched appears on the same screen. The screen's never contaminated or corrupted by anything that appears on it.

Okay, well, then, the basic sky is space. Now, you can't even grasp space. The screen, movie screen, or a mirror's got a back on it, or a movie screen, is seemingly something that appears on it. But space is no thing. It never was anything. You see a bird flying across space. But can you grasp the tracks of the bird in space? Or a ship sailing across the ocean? Can you follow where it is after it's passed and leaves no trail? So, nothing can touch or contaminate or corrupt that space like awareness. And everything that appears, all things that appear in it, there's nothing you can conceptualise or postulate or think of or imagine which would be outside of space.

What would it be in? Anything outside? It would have to be in something else. There's only space we can postulate and say it would be in. Space is no thing. And you and I and everything that appears in it are things. The cats are things. The chairs are things. The birds are things. The flowers are things. The trees are things. I'm a thing. You're a thing. What we call things. That's a label or word we put on that discriminates it. Can some thing... Space itself is no thing. You can't say what it is at all. You can't grasp it. Can some thing come from no thing?

It can't. We say nothing. When we say nothing, we think it's a vacuum or a void. But it's really no thing. So, some thing cannot come from no thing. So, you and I which are appearing as things, the trees, the flowers, are all no thing in the actuality of it all. But they appear to be real. They seem to have some shape, pattern or form. But the pattern, shape and form they're appearing as can be all broken down, can't it? Like this body we think is solid and substantial. It can be broken down into elements. Elements can be broken down into energy. Energy can be broken down into a vibration, somewhat of a movement.

Which hasn't got any beginning or end. It's just a spontaneous throb or pulsation. When that ceases or when it stops seemingly vibrating, what's happening? The no thing remains. So, you can't say it has a beginning. Because a beginning implies time, a start. A beginning, a middle and an end. But when you look at time, when does now begin? When does time begin? Can you grasp time as something solid and substantial? You can't. It's seemingly had a beginning and an end. And where's all the problems coming from? Isn't it from imagination? That's how God says, nothing can trouble you except to your own imagination. Break imagination down to imaging.

Imagine or image in. And that's what imagining is. We are creating mental images or conceptual images that seemingly appear separate and apart from us. But they are only images. And as I say, they seem separate and apart because they need something to appear in. So they appear in the basic space. So images, look in a mirror and you see the mirror is full of images. Absolutely full of images. No room for anything else but images and reflections. But it's all empty in reality. Because you can't grab an image or a reflection out of the mirror. So you can't say it's not there. There it is in front of you, very high.

But go up and try and grab one. You can't say it is there. That's where we say that the false cannot stand up to investigation here. When we investigate ourselves, our true nature, we see that this body, mind, I call I or me, is really no thing. Am I the body? And I know innately that I'm not the body. Because I say my body. Meaning the body as appearing to something I call me. Or I. Or myself. But none of the great traditions, none of us, will say that there is anything other than the one self. In Christianity they call it God. A lot of people, a lot of traditions call it God.

The creator. And, others have other labels for it. But, if we haven't formed that conceptual image of a creator, it tells you in the right being greater. There is no creator, no creation, or no creature. And all these things are creatures. Or creatures. But really in essence, the one essence. When I say no thing, there's no God or no anything else, doesn't mean to say it's a vacuum or a void. It's a fewer, innate, intelligence, or knowing. It's pattern shaping, forming, expressing and experiencing as everything. And it needs, it is absolute. Absolute reality. But the reality, is that which never changes. And when you see that, what does it mean?

It's not talking about just, you know, it's not talking about you or me, or some conceptual image of a higher power or a greater power. That's all changing. What doesn't change? The cognising emptiness. The emptiness itself doesn't change. Or the no mind. What they call in Buddhism, no mind. No mind is that pure functioning, without any imaginings or conceptualisations, going on in it. Well not any patterns, shapes or forms. Or pictures or images going on. But it's still no mind, whether they appear in it or not. But we take it too, then we give it a name. Well mind, this is mind. And something we make out that says something in there.

But it is, to try and describe it, it's a wondrous intelligence. Or knowing. The way it patterns, forms, implies, what this word intelligence, the meaning of that intelligence is. It's a wonderful seeming creation. A seeming creature and a seeming creation. And in wondrous ways it can, shape or form. It's amazing and wondrous. But it's all that one essence, just like the artist, creates some beautiful pictures, or drawings, or whatever the like of it. Huh. But where do they come from? Seeming through that pattern, you call the artist. Now what could that pattern, the artist do, without that life energy in it? And without that life, what could anything do with that pattern that's formed, that life energy that's formed that pattern?

Didn't have the nerves, the sinews, the heart, the lungs, the breathing, and the brain, through which these wondrous images can come to. So all those things are there, but cut up a brain, what can you find in it? Nothing. You know. And can you find a mind when you cut up this body? You can't. So where's that innate intelligence? It hasn't, it's still the spaciousness, it's still the emptiness. And when there's nothing, in the saga it says, nothing can trouble you except your own imagination. You see, when there's no imagining going on, there's no thing there, what's the problem? But it's pretty ordinary, pretty everyday boring, I don't know.

But when it becomes, that seeming life is expressing through it, and forms all these wondrous patterns, that's our problem. We take the pattern, the shape and form, to be real. And things real, then it becomes a problem to it. Because with the mind, and the reasoning, and the thinking going on, expressing through this body, which is the mind, which is just nothing but vibrating energy, we take it to be good, or bad, pleasant or painful, happy, sad, loving, hating. Put all these different concepts on it. But, it's still the one vibration, it's not vibrating as two. As I say, it's all, I use the term, no one ended stick.

It's all a one stick. And the two ends are on that same stick. So, the vibration, has never moved, or separated those things in reality. It's going, just going from one end to the other. Like it's a, you'll see it in the universe, the North Pole and the South Pole, we put two labels on them. But once you get to the South Pole, you can't go any further south. Once you get to the North Pole, you can't go any further north. So you must turn back from the south to the north, and you must turn from the north to the south. Where would they meet?

And they meet, which they've, intelligence has put the label on, the equator. What's the equator mean? It means where the equilibrium is. Where the natural thing is. Where it's neither, as Shakespeare said, either good or bad. Where you're on a seesaw, when you see saw you're up and down, we're in the middle. Again, in the fulcrum. So though it's appearing duly, it never has been dualistic, or never can be, or never will be. It never has been anything substantial or real in the appearance. And if we didn't have these minds or brains, didn't formulate, where could the imaginings or the appearance take place? They don't take place in the absolute.

They take, the screen can't recognise itself. It's just a screen. It's just a screen. It's just a screen. It's just a screen. It doesn't recognise itself, and there's something seemingly outside it to appear in it. So it forms these patterns and these vibrations. And when it's all up by, boiled down, you and I and everything else are that. And then get that, all these words that are coming out now, are that. And the words are not the real. Words are something that's been acquired by these patterns picked up, have a look at it. Can you remember your birth? You were so-called being born. But you can't remember your birth.

Why can't you? You can remember a lot of other things in your life and the many things you want, but you can't remember your birth. You can't remember it because you had no words. And for the first couple of years of your life, you had no words. So it's the learning of the words which enable us to discriminate this. Discrimination comes up as thoughts, feelings, emotions. And that's what Shakespeare taught you. Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. The words are not the thing. Take the word water. Can you drink the word? Can you swim in it? The fire doesn't burn your mouth.

The word fire. The word, you know. All these words, the meaning we put them on, are not the thing. They're not the actual. They're a label. With a label, we put them to discriminate it because you can't keep going on and saying, oh, it's all that. That is all there is. We haven't got any other words or labels to put on it. We don't have to say it. It is that. And that is a chair. That's the carpet. That's the tree. That's the flower. That's you. That's me. So it's already that. But to discriminate it further, to separate it, we put words. That's the tree.

That's the flower. That's you. That's me. That's this. That's that. Everything is that. That's the Mahavaka, the great mantra. And we know that innately because we say that. But we discriminate it because we're utilizing these words to reason, the capacity of reasoning in a valid sense. And to work things out with reasoning, which we work many things out with reasoning, it's very useful in evolving and that. But you've never worked out the answers. You've never worked out the answers of life. And you won't. Because try to grasp it with a concept. We've put many concepts on it, in many ways what we think it is.

But you can't because it's non-conceptual, ever fresh, presence awareness. It is this presence right now. And presence is not past or future. It's just a label we put on it. It's just immediacy. And even that is another label. None of those labels fit it. But it's just isn't us. And even that doesn't fit it because you can't say it is or it is not. So there's no word can grasp it. We use words to discriminate it. So it's everything is real in its essence. But not as it appears. In its essence it's real. As it shapes and forms. And the essence of it all, is real.

By pure light or energy. Or intelligence, I call intelligence energy. Real as that. That is its reality. When you say I am that, you're putting a label on the reality, which is that. So when I say I am that, who is saying it? It's vibrating as that, which then I, it is discriminated with the words. I or me. Now when you were born you didn't have that word I. But it was one of the first words you learnt. Your parents fussing you around, you tell your son you're little Johnny or you're little Billy. And that sense of presence translates as a thought. You learnt I and me.

That sense of presence, the knowing that you are right now, the beingness, the knowingness, the lovingness, translates as the thought I am. Now you can't do much with I am. So we've added onto it I am Bob, the Australian or a good fella or not so good. Or I am this or I am that. Just the same as we put the, it's all I am that. Again that sense of presence is I am, I am that. And just the same as everything else is that. And we put the discriminated to change it, make it different from us. We say it's the tree, it's the flower, it's the room, it's the house.

Or we say it's the house, it's the house. We say it's the house, it's the house. Or we say it's me, this body, or that body, or this mind, or that mind. It's still all the one essence. Now when it's dividing, when it's dualistic, it's causing all our problems. Because as soon as there's I or me, the vibration of that would be other than me, or not I. So it vibrates in the opposite to give it some seeming reality or some meaning. If it's in this oneness, you can't divide it or separate it. So it seemingly needs to be divided or separated to give it some reality whatsoever.

But as soon as we're doing that, we're in trouble. Because naturally, when a little child sees something that's really, reasons that's not me, or that's not my I, because he hasn't been pointed to the non-duality of it all, he feels fearful. And unhappy and insecure and depressed. And all our suffering comes upon that. Because if you're feeling unhappy or depressed or jealous about it or envious about it, you've got all these sensations or feelings now, which being reinforced become real. And they cause constricts in the body, all sorts of sensations in the body. And that body, constricts around them or around them, it tries to escape from the mind.

And all our psychological suffering comes about because of that. So we say it's not necessary. As it's explained beautifully in all the great traditions, they're all different explanations, whether you're Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, Jewish, or whatever, Califampian, or atheist, or agnostic. They're all different labels we put on it. And the more discrimination, thoughts and feelings, and more labels we put on it, the more senses of seeming separation it comes about. And with the sense of separation, there's something you believe is not you, or not my, me or I. And you don't understand it, or they've got different concepts or ideas, and you don't like it, and you want to protect this self-centre, this image.

But you see, it's all mental constructs. Thoughts are mental constructs. They're nothing but a movement of energy, actually, but they're vibrating into separate mental constructs. Concepts. And we have concepts about everything, all mental constructs. We have a concept about ourselves. We have a concept about everybody we see, everything that you see. You form a mental concept, something, and you think about that. And you have concepts about this and that. But when you recognise they're all concepts, and concept is a mental construct, a thought, a vibration, without a concept, not holding this concept, who can be superior to you? Without a concept, there's nothing to evaluate with, nothing to relate it to, nothing to be superior to.

And who can be inferior to you? No, you don't. So you're not going to discriminate into superior and inferior. You've got this concept about them, you've got a concept about yourself, and no concept's right. Nobody can be superior to you. Nobody can be inferior to you. So what would you want of the others? If you don't believe they're superior to you, and you want something, well, you want to be like them, and you don't want to be what you are, you've got this inferior attitude, or superior attitude. So no one can be superior to you, no one can be inferior to you. And what would you want of the other person then?

If you know it's absolute, and you are the absolute, and the same that's available to them is available to you, if you're open to it and let it be, then you don't want anything. Then you're going to let everything be as it is. Everything being as it is, and you're out of the road, like the sun and the clouds obscuring it. When the clouds obscure the sun, there's not that much clarity in the space, in the emptiness, seemingly obscured. But when the clouds, which are not fixated on the sky, and are free to move, when there's more clarity there, and the same with, we realise there's no thoughts or concepts fixated in your head, and let them be, there'll be much more clarity there.

And that clarity will be the spontaneous awareness that functions as the consciousness and as everything that's in the consciousness. Awareness is just another label, which we think of as something that is awareness, and we think there's something that is consciousness. They're both labels. But consciousness is existence. You know you are existing right now, you can't negate it. And that existence is utterly aware, it's totally aware that it exists. So awareness is primary, that's how the consciousness comes upon it. And then the personal thoughts and ideas and images come upon into that consciousness. And the sense of separation and belief and it all goes on. And the world goes on as it is.

Now it doesn't mean to say we have to abandon thinking. Thinking can be very useful. As you've worked out so many things in the mind. But the answer to life, you can't. The answer to that reality, the actuality, you can't. Because it's mind trying to find out what mind is. And it can't happen. It's like blood trying to wash away blood. It won't happen. So, and it's like the cloud trying to get rid of the cloud itself. But it can't. But it's the radiance of the sun shining through the cloud that's trying to get rid of the cloud itself. And it's the radiance of the sun shining through the cloud that forms the cloud in the first place, evaporates water.

And will cool the water down. And it'll drop back into water again. And the clarity will be there. Now that impure intelligence, which you always are, comes about of itself. So start with the fact that you are that instead of starting... That's our problem. We start from the fact we've taken on this belief we're separate entities, we're human beings. We're individuals, which we're not. And trying to get to the reality from there, it can't happen. Because you're trying to become something that is nothing but the pure being. And that's why they express Sat Chit Ananda, Nama Rupa, the five factors of Hinduism. Sat is existence, Chit is consciousness, Ananda is loving to be.

Nama Rupa, name and form are Maya, they're an illusionary part of it. So are you existing right now? Never mind about what you're thinking, but are you existing? Can you negate that existence or being? There's another term for it, you can't. Are you consciousness? Are you conscious or knowing? Or are you unaware? You're not unaware, so you must be aware. You're not not knowing, you are knowing. And you are conscious. And are you happy in this life? You're not with all the thinking going on, but would you be dead? Would you be out of it? Evil one. Would you be away from it? No, you don't want to be dead.

But you don't want to be in this misery either. And you don't have to be. That's all we ever point out to you. And we put all these so-called spiritual terms on it and different religions, different traditions, but they're all dust labels we put on them. It's all the one. All the absolute. So take a stance there. I am the absolute. I am the totality. I am not my self. As soon as you say my self, you're relating it to a me, a separate entity, an individual. That one self has now become the many self, because everybody says my self. So the one self is seemingly divided, and you can't get to it from that division.

Go back to the totality. You can't go back to it, but realise it's constantly in the background. The changeless and whichever change is appearing in it. And let that reveal itself to you. And that will reveal itself in concepts, in words. But no, which is, you know, you'll see in some of the writings that's been written about and things that's revealing of it. But to recognise it yourself and stay with it yourself, that's the important thing. Because nobody, they can tell you it a million times, billions of times if you like, not a bit of good to you. Until it's recognised and realised by that one self that you are.

That not the personal self. And realise that the very idea of the person is the problem. The very idea of the personal self is the problem. It's not the totality. So that's what we point out and ask you to look at. So you got any questions, ask them. Those of you that are recognising it, having a taste of it, even if you don't fully understand it yet, some of the little revelations and realisations, put it in mature words, might be said in a different way to what is being said here. Where someone else, so-called someone else, who's opening to it will recognise it. But each one has to recognise it themselves.

It's a cognising emptiness. It's that emptiness, that screen again we go back to, that is empty. And it's cognising or knowing. In other words, the knowing is the intelligence. It's the fused. And the Buddha told you that when he said emptiness is form. It's not that we are cognising emptiness, but the emptiness of self has that capacity of cognising or knowing or intelligence or vibrating essence, whatever you like to call it, or godliness, whatever you like to call it. And emptiness is forming all this manifestation, that vibration. It's forming in that body. And the form that was appearing solid, substantial, real, is nothing other than the emptiness.

So that basic emptiness we started with is still there. It hasn't changed. You are that. So go ahead. Anyone there? Yes, some questions and comments. Kat's going to now give a talk. So there was a question first. The question was on the beginning. And it is a good and important question that people often ask. Who? That was from Gad Potter. The question, in deep sleep, where is I am? To say I exist, I must be there. For witnessing it, in waking state, I can say I am. But in deep sleep, where is the I am? The I am is done. I am is a concept, it's a thought.

But you haven't disappeared in deep sleep. Have you stopped breathing? Has your heart stopped beating? Have your hair and fingernails stopped growing? Food stopped being used? All the functioning is going on, but the thinking. And when you wake up in the morning, you say, I slept well. How would you know if that awareness wasn't there? There's an awareness then of your unawareness. You were unaware in deep sleep. There was an unawareness there. But the unawareness is just the other end of awareness. So it's the same essence. But we call it awareness. And there's no such thing as awareness. It's the same as there's no such thing as consciousness.

You can't tell me what awareness is. You can't tell me what consciousness is. Wakefulness or awareness or knowing. It's pure knowing or being. Pure being, knowing and loving to be. And you are that. Yes, so thank you for the question. And hello everyone. This question I would also like to point a couple of aspects on. Because it's quite often asked. And it's a genuine curiosity that makes people ask this question. Of course, where is the I am when I'm dead? Or where is the I am when I'm in coma? Or where is the I am when I'm sleeping? Where was it before you were born?

Yeah, where was it before you were born? Yeah, and then again, it begs for the definition. What do you mean by I am? Is that a concept, a thought? Is that a sense of presence? Because if it is the basic sense of presence, then it's a concept. The basic sense of presence. Can you say the presence, the sense of presence is not there when you are in sleep or coma? You can't say. Because you don't remember. And the fact that you don't remember only signifies that some, you know, languaging network is off, is sleeping. So you can't say that when the computer is off that the power is not available there.

Or, yeah, well, you can say the power is not there but the potentiality of the power is there. And another aspect which is probably the most important and I don't want you or anyone to feel brushed over by hearing it, but it may resonate deeper. Asking that question, how is it relevant right now? Because we always go to the mind and ask, but what if? What when? What when I am dead? Or what, you know, it is not a present reality. Non-duality deals with that present reality. Every attempt to solve the puzzle of what will happen when or if in some other time than present moment is beautiful, genuine curiosity, but it takes you right to the thinking, right to the working things out in the mind.

It's just worthy of noticing. How much we want to resolve theoretically and find the logical answer to. Nothing wrong. But is it really relevant? Is it really important to know? When you are in a sleep, ask the question then. But when you are in a sleep, you don't have any questions. So you don't have any problems. So the idea of where is the I am doesn't show up. There is no need for the answer. The need for the answer is when there is a theoretical, detached from life and from the present moment situation now brought up here. And it is not to say that you should not ask questions.

If the questions come up, please. Ask them. It's just another aspect. The fact that you don't remember, it doesn't mean that it wasn't there. And again, as Bob pointed out, the power was on. The heart was beating. And even that we project in this moment onto the past that is only existing conceptually. Because last night is not the reality of the moment. I can now believe it into existence. Oh yes, it happened. And by the assertion, by the expression of it happening, I project it right now into the past. So that's a good question. Bring them up when they come up. But yeah, just see what they do to the presence.

How they obscure the livingness of this moment and take you back to the head, to the conceptualizing. Because there was another one. Yes, another from Gutt Potter. Beingness as I am is in waking state. And what about non-beingness? Is it in deep sleep? What about non-beingness? Still the same stick. Yeah. Beingness is to believe there's something there. The non-being, I don't know, I think there's no thing there. Yeah. It's kind of, is there such a thing as non-being? Again, yeah. How would he move from life and, and theoreticalities? That's just good to notice. The non-beingness is a concept that is even hard to imagine. Less alone experience.

Because who would be experiencing that? Yeah. Even to say non-being, you must be there to be able to say it. That's right. Yes. And now we have Tanya. There is no how to parent my child, is there? No. No, there is no, no question of how to parent my child. There is the idea that she needs to learn certain things about life, and I need to teach her them. But that is a story. That is obvious. Daughter has helped it be seen that there is no control or controller. Laughing. I see how thought is making it seem like this is a problem to solve. This will happen exactly as it does, and can't be solved.

And doesn't need to be any different. Beautiful. There also is a subtle idea that there is more to be seen. There is no Tanya. No inside, outside. No body or mind. There has never been any separation. Thank you. Yes, beautiful. Yeah, that's it. Apply it to life. To parenting. I can't teach you anything, and I can't tell you anything. All I can do is point toward. And ask you to look and see for yourself. When you look and see for yourself, you know, a natural recognition of it will come about, and you'll know it's the truth. Recognize the truth. If it's not, you'll see it's not the truth.

And then it's yours. Yes. But I think you've got to learn something and say, that's what I'm doing. We learn and believe we are the separate entity. Look at the trouble that's got us in. Laughing. We learn, there's a lot of things you can learn. There's a lot of things you can, but what you resonate with mainly, and that's the innate intelligence you can recognize. Like, Einstein says, I pondered on this problem for weeks and weeks and weeks. One night I went to sleep, and next morning it was there. And all the pondering, he might have seemingly got close to it, but he never found the answer.

And lots of others have said the same thing. It's when the mind is not, the spontaneous mind is not, that the reality, comes about. It comes up and is recognized. And in different words probably than what you have said, you know. Yes. So it reveals itself constantly. Let life, which you are, is life. Let that live you and express, and experience through you as you. And now Heyman says, when we see unreality of reality, we are happy beings. Laughing. And Rohan says, Ramana Maharshi said, don't become bored with peace. Somehow we still put the label boredom on the experience and try and seek something else.

How can there be boredom when there is no one to be bored? Beautiful. Yeah, this is delicious. Indeed, Heyman says. And Jesse says, you look younger after your birthday, Bob. Thank you, Jessie. Love you. Heyman says, I cannot discriminate Bob and flowers. Those who taught me words made me miserable. Heyman said. And John David says, words were also used to point the reality. Yeah. Words are neutral. And goes Paul, mind is perception of yourself. That's all. Mind perceiving mind. Look for that which witnesses mind. Look for that who is looking at the one who witnesses mind. You will ultimately land in the no location location.

In a place where you can't locate who is looking, where from is looking, because it is an emptiness that is cognizing. It is the pure field of consciousness cognizing in which things are known, but there is no nowhere. And that's what I know. That's what he meant. Yes. Brad says, just wanting to thank you for all your work. I'm not free because there is no one to imprison. I'm not free because there is no one to imprison. Beautiful. That's right. Heyman says, I think therefore I am miserable. You know, you know, enjoy it Heyman. Rohan says, Heyman versus the characters, the characters. Had it, no, well, the characters had it wrong, the wrong way around.

It should be, I am therefore I think. In fact, he could have just stopped with I am. Who said that? That was Rohan. Okay, good. That's right. Very good. Tanya, seeing that there is no one, it seems like there is nothing more to find. What had been looked for is found. It was never lost. Thoughts appear, but they are seen for what they are. Just thoughts. There was the expectation that there would be no thoughts, but there is not the case here. Yeah. Who had the expectation? If there is no one home, who cares whether there are thoughts or no thoughts? And who has the thoughts now?

Yeah. What's your next thought going to be? Thinking happens. Comes to be as we saw. Whatever purifies you is the correct road that is Heyman quoting Rumi. And now, what kind of flowers are those? Is asking John David. You mean the tulips here or you mean these ones? Those are native. Those are native Australian flowers. Bob got them from Ainslie on his birthday. And those are tulips from Taos. Jessica, how do I approach work without becoming attached? Well, who is approaching work? Is it Jessie? Yeah. Yeah, the easiest thing is to just open up and find out how this body-mind of yours is doing it.

If it is attached, just see how the attachment forms as a pattern, how it's strengthened and weakened. Everything is just a dance of... Yeah. Does he call singing work? He sings a lot, I think. That's the spontaneous joyousness that's coming. How do I approach work without becoming attached? Well, the unfortunate first question is, first answer that comes, you're not the doer. So you can't really do much. Although it doesn't really mean that you are completely powerless because the resonating happens and the inspiration happens. And it is life in you that is responding to the life that is, yeah, singing. If it can't be detached from us, it's not work, just happening.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The best thing is just to reconnect with the deepest part of yourself, which is already neutral, which is already at peace and silence. It's like, you know, on the surface of the ocean, there may be storm, there might be ripples, there might be some things going on, the movement going on, but deep down, the current, it turns a little bit and it stops. Do you have to become attached to chopping wood, carrying water? Yeah. Just find that part of you, the part of you that is kind of a surface, may be attached, but that's not who you are. That's the personality pattern.

That's the habit that comes. But there is something deeper that is aware of that habit pattern of the attachment. And this is more of who you are. This is more that neutral space of that cognizing emptiness that is aware and it's allowing everything indiscriminately. Attachment, detachment, pain, pleasure, day, night, everything. That is your ultimate true nature. Just go back to that. There is, yes, you'll... It just, it just dawns on you. Just find the moments and acknowledge the moments in which it is already so, in which there is that peace, regardless of the attachment or detachment. And this will show up more. And we are, we have quite a few.

Deep sleep is not an absence of awareness. It is awareness of absence, Heyman says. Well, that's what I said. Yes. Your destiny is not death, but the disappearance of I am. That's Heyman quoting Nisargadatta. And Michael, Bob, can you talk about, about now, fresh and new? Does the past exist? Einstein and relativity, every moment is as real as any other. Past exists, present exists, future exists. The distinction between past, present and future is only an illusion, however persistent. Can you comment on that? Well, this isn't right. So-called now, this is the actuality. But then it's spontaneous, and there's a spontaneous movement all the time. It's always spontaneous and constantly transient, constantly changing.

Now, have a look, what you call past, yesterday, can you go back and live a moment ago? You realise you can't go back and live it. You can't go back and live yesterday. But you can recall it. And you think you've gone, but the actuality you're giving it is what you're recalling it right in this moment. If you're not recalling it in this moment, it's not there. The same in the future. You can anticipate and imagine what you're going to do when this session ends, or this afternoon, or tomorrow, but you can't live a moment in the future. The actuality and the beingness is in this breath and hearing and seeing, tasting, touching and smelling that's going on right in this immediate here right now, before any concepts discriminate it into past, future, pleasant, painful, happy, sad or happy.

Or whatever. It's just life. Life is ever fresh. It's spontaneous. It's got no time. Past and future are time. But if there's no past, you can't live a moment ago, you can't live a moment in the future. It's spontaneous activity that's going on right now. So, we have never left this what we call now moment. Yeah. Time is duration. Spontaneously. Spontaneously. It comes and goes. When does now begin? I try and grasp now right now, but as soon as I said that, it's gone. And it's now again. It's now again. So, I don't have to think about it. I wait for it to be spontaneous.

It's happening by itself. Always now. Put the K on it and it's knowing. Now is not knowing, it's knowing. And are you not knowing right now? No, you are knowing. So, you are knowing. Yeah, I would add to this Einstein idea of distinguishing between past, present and future is only an illusion and everything exists. Yeah, we can say everything exists. We can also say nothing exists. Past, future, any concept, any idea, any model, any mathematical equation, all of it exists when you think about it. It exists, it is experienced. Yeah, that's the trouble. We separate it into everything and the nothing. Everything is nothing, nothing is everything.

Don't put the discrimination or separation in it. When no discriminating thoughts arise, as it says in the Hing Sing Ming, the old mind ceases to be. Everything in a different light. Yeah. Yes, all those beautiful concepts that you actually have to stretch your brain to grasp and understand. Yeah, they're exciting. Exciting ideas, exciting theories. When you decide to believe in one and discard the others, you are a believer. And we were believers as humanity in the flat Earth and it worked. Now we are believers in the round or globe Earth and it works. One day we may be believers of other ideas, but still I would put on the primary focus the present experience without little concepts.

To discriminate and label and describe as possible because the moment you start using too much of that computing capacity, the seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling gets less attention. And the life is not lived as fully as when all the senses are wide open. There is no such thing as if. There is only is. That's Heiman. And Jessica, oh, we've been here. How do I approach work without work becoming attached? We've been here. It's mixing the game. This one works in as well. And John David, Kat, can you and Bob speak about the conviction of this understanding? It seems to have been an important aspect of this teaching for me.

I have had to come back to the idea that I have to be a part of this teaching. I have to be a part of this teaching. I have to be a part of this teaching. I have to come back. I have had to come back time and again for the message to sink in. What Bob and you speak every week is my food. Thank you. Well, do you know that you are? Or do you believe that you are? Or do you know that you are? You know that you are. That's an absolute certainty. Even if you say, I am not, there's a knowing there that you are.

You are convinced of conviction. You're convinced, instead of trying to believe it or work it out, you are convinced that I already am. Yeah. I'm not unaware, so I must be aware. I'm not unconscious, so I must be conscious. I'm not there, so I must be here. Yeah, and I see what you say with this. That's what's necessary is the conviction. Yes, the stabilization, because often we kind of lose sight of the fact that you always are. You can't not be. I mean, it's always there. The obviousness of it is staring you at the eyes. But we often kind of tend to think, wait, wait, was it something I was supposed to remember?

Was it something that I forgot? And we just dig through the pointers, which one is going to shift that inner anxiety and leave us, and say, yeah, that was it. There seemed to be a period of that. And I remember myself having that, having to come to Bob's meeting quite often and just get reminder and just have my eyes above the shit that I was sinking in. And yes, coming back to the obviousness of being, that's where you want the ultimate conviction. Am I not? No, I am. Okay, that's it. Because then there's nothing that needs to be remembered. No pointers need to be reinvestigated.

Chhatrav. Awareness is still aware. In deep sleep, the mind is gone, but the body is sleeping. But if the body wakes during the night, the awareness will notice. That is how you know if you had a good night's sleep or not. Awareness is always aware externally. The body sleeps, the mind disappears, awareness remains the same. Awareness is just a label. You can't know what awareness is really, but you can't negate it. It is the life. It's the very life of you. Recognizing oneself in all beings and all beings in oneself. Be happy, free from the sense of responsibility and free from preoccupation with me. That's a beautiful wish.

Thank you. Yes. Amarna, what is the experience of Jnani during sleep? Sleep, disease and death. Just a source of which all are superimpositions? Can you comment on that? What's the experience of Jnani during sleep, disease and death? Just a source on which all are superimpositions? Well, if you can find a Jnani, ask him, let him tell you. No such thing. It's just the same experience as everyone else has. Pure experiencing. When you say I experience, form the conceptual image, I experience this or that, you've divided the experiencing. And the experiencing, like the seeing, the hearing, the tasting, is happening right now in this isness. Whether you're asleep or awake, it's just what is.

Yeah, that's right. But what Amarna suggests, it is a possibility that Jnani would experience everything the same way the source does. Everything is superimposed. Like you are the awareness or you are the space. And the sickness is superimposed on the pattern. Or the death is superimposed on the pattern. You can call it this way, I guess. I mean, why not? If that resonates. Tanya, no one has the thoughts. No one cares what the thoughts are. Laughing out loud. Yeah. Yeah, no one cares whether thoughts are there or not. Thank you, Taz, for flowers. Oh, Pestos, thank you too. Thank you too. And Atul, what is wrong?

Is that you consider yourself a person? That you consider yourself to be limited to this body and shape? I'll move it a little bit. I'd be happy to only knock you over. He's a playful little boy. Pesto. Yes, so there is a question here or comment. What is wrong is that you consider yourself to be limited to the body and shape. The knowledge I try to give is given to the knowledge I am in each of you. Which is the same. If you try to get the knowledge as individual, you'll never get it. That's Nisargadatta Maharaj. Darling. Yeah, if he hooks onto that and pulls it over.

Yes, that is beautiful. Bob often starts the talk from, I'm not talking to anybody. I'm not talking to bodies. I'm not talking to minds. I'm talking to the sense of presence that translate as I am. That's basically what the message there, quote from Nisargadatta Maharaj. And Heyman. A disciple asked his monk teacher, is it okay if I use email and the teacher said as long as there are no attachments, it's okay. That's a joke. He was okay with those flowers for a week. He just craves attention. Bill Laughlin. Work is just part of story. Another label has been used all part of the fun. Yeah.

Yeah. Work is an aspect of the whole dance code called life. And it's, yeah, we call it work. And Jessica says, thank you. Very beautiful. And Taz, morning Bob and Kat just struck me there that there is a me in mental illness. There is me who identifies with the world. There is me who identifies, wants, rejects, hides, achieves, hopes, but never is. Taz has mental illness. Thank you for pointing to anti-Taz medication, Bob. That's a good way to look at it. Every self-center you could actually view as a self-obsession, as the mental illness. Mm-hmm. And it's totally not necessary for functioning. Like animals do very well without it.

And it does create suffering. It does cause all the imbalances in the body, emotional, hormonal, all the, yeah, so. What's the way out of it? Pause the thought. Yes. And investigate the sense of self. See if there is any body or any entity there or here or here. Yeah. And now, Jessica, should I use mantra I am or I am that? Whichever works. If you even need to use the mantra because it is more about focusing on that sense of presence, on that existence that cannot be denied. Well, if your mind's troubling you too much, you can use a mantra. Of course, yeah. But so ham is the natural mantra that comes with the breathing.

So I breathe in. So I breathe in sa, breathe out ha. Or the other way around, hamsa. Mm-hmm. That's the sound of, the breath makes us, it's going out very subtle. Mm-hmm. So that's going on all the time if you focus on it. And where do the words come from? There's no thoughts, no thoughts in you that thoughts come to you. Mm-hmm. What's your next thought going to be? You don't know. And it means you know. You're not thinking any thoughts. are happening. So when you inspire, that inspiration you're bringing in the thought and if you let the thought that's trouble you ride out on the breath.

Just not fixate on it but breathe it out. You rid of that thought when you say we can't get rid of this thought it's troubling. Just breathe it out. John David, joy is founded on something too profound to be understood and communicated. To be joyous is to be madman in the world of a sad ghost. Ghosts Henry Miller. Joyous is spontaneously arriving in. Madman in the world of sad ghosts. Atul Monga, past and future comes from present and present comes from the present. Beautiful! Yes that's a nice one. Heymann, we don't believe in In the existence of reality, reality exists simply because we believe it is so.

There you go. And reality is all there is. There is no me to either believe or disbelieve. Yeah. Get back to that. Nothing can be grasped. What a relief. That's Tanya. Yeah. Jesse loves Henry Miller. I never heard of him. Heyman. Yes. And no one also to grasp it. Beautiful. And Atul, if you remain in the source, the self, you can easily catch each thought as it rises. If you don't catch the thoughts as they rise, they sprout, become plants, and if you still neglect them, they grow into great trees. Anamali Swami. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful images, beautiful analogies. Letting go of concepts is sadhana.

That's ghost pole. Heyman. Before you believe that you are, you know that you are. Knowledge I am is inevitably prior to the whole thoughts and beliefs and emotions and the body and existence. There you go. Yeah. Knowledge that you are is actually the existence and is prior to the whole existence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And if you are connected to all the thoughts and beliefs and emotions. Yes. Ghost poles, letting go of concepts is sadhana. I would even say, you know, recognizing how the concepts are letting go are gone by itself. You know, it's because you're not really doing it. You just see it done.

You see it resolve. You just need that that space held for the concepts to drop. Sadhana is a nice idea, too. idea too. Let it rest in its uncontrived singularity, just as it is. Is-ness. It's not was-ness or what will be. It just is. Megan, regarding work, Nisargadatta said, by all means, attend to your duties. Action in which you are not emotionally involved and which is beneficial and does not cause suffering will not bind you. You may be engaged in several directions and work with enormous zest, yet remain inwardly free and quiet, with a mirror-like mind which reflects all without being affected. Beautiful. Heyman says, pesto is considered cut.

Yeah, he's very loving and he really likes attention. Pesto's gone for a trip to the river shortly. Jesse, the person I imagined myself to be was just another thought, one that was changeable at all, at that. All is unfolded by intelligence energy. No person exists to direct anything. Beautiful. Beautiful. Good on you, Jesse. And Heyman answering, the person I imagined myself to be was just another thought, one that was changeable at all, at that. And Heyman answering, the person I imagined myself to be was just another thought, one that was changeable at all, at that. And Heyman answering, the person I imagined myself to be was just another thought, one that was changeable at all, at that.

And Heyman answering, the person I imagined myself to be was just another thought, one that was changeable at all, at that. And Heyman answering, the person I imagined myself to be was just another thought, one that was changeable at all, at that. myself to be was just and Heyman says yes and Ramana Maharishi refers to it as I thought and the one should attend to it till it dissolved Catherine says thank you and sends love for herself and James and they were much more love messages and I just I just highlighted again thank you we really appreciate every good morning and every every heart this is really heartwarming and beautiful I just don't read it here because we want to focus on non-duality pointing but I assure you that after the lunch Bob is gonna go through it and see who was with us and who exactly pointed and sent which greeting so it is not forgotten it is fully fully appreciated thank you hmm I'm not an entity I am totality says Heyman that's right and Julia I had a recent experience in a loony bean some identifying happened and was delighted with the effectiveness of noticing that there is no me to be special cool pesto cannot grasp flowers trying to eat them yeah it's funny because he was okay with them for a week at all like the appearance of silver in a mother of pearl the world seems real until the self the underlying reality is realized that's Adi Shankara Julia when I was in college I majored in psychology and one of my professors said that a good definition of mental illness is thinking that there is nothing wrong with me but something wrong with everyone else especially someone who thinks there is something wrong with me I think it may be more clear to say that mental illness is believing that there is a me and a non-man I'll just I'll just scroll through it in case they kind of jump all over I think there is one message one new message coming there is no pesto doing it who is the doer here is the life is always life life does everything if there was no life in pesto there would be no activity there would be no action yes give credit where credit is due it's all that life is that's all there is this life yeah oh if it's God if you like and everything else and as the saga says there is only life there is nobody who lives a life and life lives on life Yeah.

For out of life, more life continually emerges. And life needs a pattern. Oh, it doesn't, but it actually creates the pattern. Yeah. To express through. It creates the little, it created the parents of Pesto, and then it created the little fetus, and it created the little kitten. And it keeps... And the pattern is life also. This body is made of trillions of cells. And each cell is suffused with intelligence energy, or knowing, actually, full of life. Take the life out of the body, and it's a corpse. It's nothing but life. Life is the only doer, the ultimate doer. And even the doing is just an appearance.

It's just a manifestation. It's just the nothingness vibrating into thinkness. The form... The emptiness vibrating into forms. The silence vibrating into sounds. But they're not separate. There's still one. There's only appearance of the two. Because if there was no appearance of the two, there would be no appearance at all. Oh, it's quarter past. We already have the good lunch wishes. Have a nice lunch wishes and the love messages. So I think if there is no messages, we are off the hook. I'll see if there is anything that I missed or skipped. Oh, I'm sorry. I skipped. Nothing to be grasped. What a relief, says Tanya.

Doesn't show me anymore, but... There is a quote from Muji, from Atul. It is attention, not you, that moves about, that goes in and out. You are not the attention, but if you identify yourself with attention, you feel that you go in and out. I like that. Yeah, very nice. See you. Bye. Michael love it love it love it so special this sharing Thank You Bob and Kat Thank You Michael hmm and Tanya says love you Bob and Kat thank you for pointing to the peace that passes all understanding have a yummy lunch we will I think that's thank you all for input some beautiful questions there and there's none in no person that's asked one of them it's the life energy throbbing and pulsating and expressing through each and every swimming pattern it's the label those questions come up and it will have the answers for you also that'll come up to you yeah resting in its uncontrived singularity and let what experiences or what what happens happen the isn't everything is perfectly resolved in the unborn mind and the unborn mind is the mind it's not fixated on any of the thoughts arise and disappear and more when it's seemingly born and taken delivery of and become something real and becomes problematic because sinners anything other than that essence is born as jewels and jewelers have never won and never will be it's only seemingly apparent and we've taken on board when the birth came about never questioned it because we didn't know any different when we learnt words so it seemingly had to appear had to play around but those of you looking into this stuff it's taking you down a few paths at all sorts of practices and things you've got to do looking in the mind but you were you are before the mind and what the mind comes up with is not you so you won't find the answer there but leave it in its natural state as in nature see how nature's functioning earth rolling around the Sun season coming ago tides coming in and out it's not asking any questions or it's not concerned about this or that it just takes everything as it is and it's transient constantly changing and you realize the thinking is constantly changing and your body is constantly changing that you are nature itself just let it rest in its uncontrived singularity where it's a singularity not divided just things expressing continually as it is and it is unconcerned about the poor so-called human being that believes is a human being it's brought it into existence in a and its existence its reality has never been anything other than that and this seemly mentation or thinking or concepts we put onto the levels we put on and seemingly divided separated and the different meanings we put into these concepts and ideas fear happiness sadness lost depression love hatred all these beliefs or concepts we put on them the words are discriminating and it tells you in the finish of the Hing Sing Ming which is a beautiful thing that brings it back to the one that's continually through each verse the last verse says words the way is beyond language for there's no yesterday no tomorrow and no today so you see it's taken pointing out that language is the problem and without the word is you can't divide it up into the other yesterday today tomorrow or anything at all and bring us back to isness and isness is just a verb to be anyway we can usually point to be so it's already that that is a primary labour we put an I am, that sense of presence, which translates through the mind as a thought, I am, we put on the end of it, that.

Innately, I mean in a way innately, that already you know that. That is known. And realise everything is that. All these things out there in the massification, the house, the tree, the flower, everything is that, which we've discriminated by putting the labels or the words on it. And the label or the word is not the real. Labels and words are still that, because they're a vibration of energy also. But we put meaning into them. Meaning is word also. Yes, there is a couple of comments still. Tass says that, Bob just added to Julia's comment regarding, regarding, mental illness being a belief in the me. He added the belief there is, the belief in there isn't a me.

Can you expand on this please, Bob? You said the belief that there is a me or there isn't a me. Any belief? Yeah. No belief is the actual. Because the definition of belief is an unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason. Meaning we haven't worked it out, we haven't questioned it, worked it out, and reasoned it out and see whether it's true or not. We've just taken it on face value. Acceptance of an alleged fact, we've alleging that this is real, without positive knowledge or proof. Now have a look in your life and see how many beliefs have you looked into and seen through them.

Like I say, the blue sea, the water's not blue, it appears to be blue, blue sky, the rainbow, snake. I've taken a rope, child of a maroon ruminant. All these analogies I point out, when you look into them, they're not real. The belief that I am this person. We believe we are a person. And person comes with a persona, the mask. So the persona or the mask is a mask of concept. And what are concepts? They're thoughts. And what are thoughts? Thoughts are words. What are words? Words are sounds. Sounds are vibrations. So how can the word ever be real if it's only a vibration of energy?

How can there be any meaning into it? So without the word, as we pointed out before, we're in deep sleep, we haven't got the word. But are you unaware? You can't say you're aware or unaware, but when you wake up in the morning and you say, I slept well, that implies that there was an awareness of your unawareness. Well how could you say anything about the deep sleep? I say I don't know. But isn't there a knowing that you don't know? So the knowing is always there, whether it's knowing or not knowing. There is another quote here. It is from Papaji. Atul is quoting. For duality to be there, there must be a substratum of non-duality.

For duality to be recognised as duality, there must be non-duality that is aware of the duality. Papaji. So there can't be one without the other. There can't be duality without non-duality. There can't be non-duality without duality. There can't be good without bad. There can't be bad without good. There can't be pleasant without pain. So it's all one stick. I like it. All one-sided coin. There's no one-sided coin. Each coin has got two sides to it. It holds naturally. No hurry. Yeah. Beautiful isness, says Jane. I am the I behind all I's, says Chhatrav. Tass says, thank you, Bob. I believe in you, though. You might be making a big mistake.

OK. Ready for lunch? Yep. OK, thank you. Peace. Peace. Thank you, people. Thank you for your great input. Thank you, everyone. See you next time. Or see you on Zoom on the . And each and every one who really, really know it. So don't forget that either. Love you all, because that is all there is. There's only love. Now you have two cards on the chair. And you are that love. Love you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.