This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
Anybody there? Yeah, you're just on, so people will be calling in. Yes, you just start talking, people come in as you start. Now we have four people and then more will come. Well, good morning everybody! And every mind. And every... Everyone that seemingly believes they are the body and the mind. Yes, Simon says good morning lovely sailors. Cynthia says good morning. And we have ten people now, so in two minutes you'll have thirty. Yeah, that's the same old story. It's the same thing we call the mind that divides everything. Could there be a world if it didn't appear in the mind? Could there be a mind if it didn't appear in the world?
So, both the one and the same thing. And every other thing in this manifestation is the content of that which we call no-thing. Not the emptiness, not the vacuum, not the void, but no-thing. All the patterns, shapes and forms will still be appearing in it, but they are made of... just vibrating patterns form, moving around, forming different shapes as they move around. Seemingly real, seemingly solid, seemingly insubstantial. Just like this body, we call a body, and worst off, we call it my body. Must be a me or a my that has the... owns the body then. But whether it's me or my, or me or mine, or whatever thought you put it, if there wasn't a body to express through, how could it express?
And what could it express? So, just like that thing I just said about the universe and the mind, and the mind and the universe, there's nothing you can separate at all. But we do. We conceptually separate it. That's the way it appears, or seems to be. And that's the phenomenal manifestation. All made up... manifestation is made up of phenomena. All these things are phenomena. And the definition of phenomena is that which appears to be. So this voice is coming out of this seeming mouth. There's no substance to it whatsoever. Bang! I'm just speaking a thought. I can't grasp it. Can't see it. Can't touch it.
And a thing I call mind. But I can't show anybody that I'm not the body or mind. Yet, while it was believed in, it was my mind. Today, it's no longer believed in. Because it's been seen through. So many other things have been seen through. And what needs to happen. But that's the most important thing. Seeing that I am not the body, that I am not the mind. All these appearances. I am, in essence, no thing. Nothing whatsoever. Seeing that and knowing that. Well, there's not too much being caught up in the phenomena. There's a little bit of old residual habit arising now and again.
But where before it was fixated on and clung to and was seemingly real and caused a lot of problems, there's just a joyousness in the expression of it. How it's expressing it. It can't be discriminated as my expression or me seeing it or me that's knowing it. It's just a pure knowing. Being and loving it. Joyful. Joyousness of it. And that's a description of sat-shet-ananda. What the Hindus call sat-shet-ananda. Sat-shet-ananda. Or the non-duality. The one without a second. Existence, consciousness, bliss. Three of the five factors. The other two factors are nama-rupa. And they tell you there clearly. Nama-rupa. Nama is the name. We put on these bodies and the form is the body.
And we've taken ourselves to be the body-mind. Nama-rupa. They tell you, it's my, it's illusion. And, some of the languages we call it instead of saying it. I. I am. Is the sense of presence. How it's expressed as the thought. I am. We take that I am to me. Me. Bob. The Australian. The good fella. This body-mind entity. And they're all concepts that I have about it. Other people have different concepts about it. Say he's an arsehole. He's this, that or the other. And just the same as I form concepts about them. And everybody forms concepts about everybody else. And everybody has a concept about themselves.
Taking their concept to be different from other concepts. But what's a concept? When you see a concept, there's nothing but a mental construct. A thought up, label, it's being put on. It's functioning. Presence, awareness. And taken to be real. And it says, and you see that concept being a mental construct. There's no concept that's real. So, if all these concepts that people have about you, aren't real, and all the concepts you have about people are not real, who's superior to you? If, neither side has a concept, can you judge one as better than the other? Or worse than the other? No one's superior to you, no one's inferior to you.
And, we think they've got this and I need that, or I want what they've got, or, the wants and needs come up. But, if you see there's no one that's superior to you, no one inferior to you, it's all an equilibrium. What would you want of the other persons? Because even though they seemingly have something that you haven't got, it's equally a very different concept. And, if you haven't got it, it's equally available to you, and to me, and to everybody else. But, the problem is there's no me, who thinks it hasn't got it, can get it. Even though we try. And the very trying, comes up of itself.
And, with no relating going on, everything's seen in this non-dual, presence awareness state, of the great perfection. And, it's realised as that. And you start to relax or rest, in the non-conceptual images, shape, no transfer, no shape, no form, natural state. A lot of the conceptual fears, which are all concepts, anger, depression, unhappiness, joyless, and, fearfulness. When all these things happen. And, what are you going to relate to them? What are they going to attach to? Well, naturally, it's happening to me. Happening to me. Me, Bob, the Australian, the good fella. So, we really formulate this I again. Take it to be real. Get locked into it.
And, the suffering naturally goes on. Because there's a vision. There's a vision. There's a vision. There's a vision. Because there's a vision, to vibrant, seeming division will constantly be going on. But not realizing that change is natural. That's a natural, there's a constant transience about everything. And, this body you walked into the room with, or sat down with, is not what you walked into the room with. It might have only been a few moments ago, or an hour ago, or five hours ago, or whatever. has changed and it's changing right now, right in this immediacy. It's constantly transient. There is nothing static about it. So in the seeming world we live in, or this universe we live in, it's constantly in flux or changing.
No static point anywhere. So what does anyone or anything have to be concerned about or need to be concerned? If you know that change is constantly there. And this coronavirus and all of this, you see here that people are seemingly dying all around us. Whether you knew that or not, there'd be a couple hundred people die every night in this city. Melbourne. We don't take much notice of that. When the virus comes up and seemingly takes a few more, we focus into that and start fearing it and all the rest of it. But there lies viruses, plagues and all sorts of things. Ice ages and tsunamis, imploding volcanoes, exploding volcanoes.
Stars, planets, imploding. And we're not concerned about that. We're concerned about the fact that we're not evolving, forming, breaking down, constantly in flux, constantly changing. Is that going to continue to stop? We think that this pattern, shape and form which is transient is going to stay forever. Or we know it's going to end and we're fearful of a day. But did you know anything about its beginning? Try and go back and see if you can remember your birth. You cannot remember your birth, even. So you didn't start thinking about it. So you have to think about which is the beginning. Which is the beginning, start at birth as this body-mind entity.
You started at the birth of this pattern, shape and form was the start of that pattern, shape and form before the sets of separation started on it. It's form, pattern, shape and form, the livingness was going on, the transit, the change was going on, but it learnt language, got a vocabulary, learnt words and the word was taken to be real. Now to find your way out of this maze of contamination and corruption, you've got to investigate it. There's no one that's got to do anything of course, but I use the words, the investigation will come about when the realisation or the recognition comes about. If it does, it might come about.
There's a lot more to this than what it appears to be. When we think it's what we are in this pattern, shape and form and we see people all around us dying, we know there's going to be a seeming end to it. But as I say, none of you can remember your birth. So do you think you'll remember that end? Will there be anybody there to say this is the last time? The last breath? Or this is the end of me? Who won't? It'll happen, it'll come about, the pattern, shapes and forms. What happens? Do they stick around for a long? Cemeteries are full of carcasses.
All is left, even the skeletons and the bones die down, rot away, decay, form into nothingness. So there's constant transient going on there even. So, you know, it's a long way to go. What is it now? The knowingness is there that I am. This sense of presence. It's a sense of presence that translates through this thing we call mind as the thought. I am. It's just a sense, one of the sensations, a sense of presence. Can any way say I'm not present right now? You can't. That sense of presence is right now. And to reach this or recognise this, what Nisargadatta says, is to stay in the I am-ness, he's saying.
And to recognise, that I had to recognise and investigate this I am-ness, took me three years, he said, of investigating and recognising it until it solidified and became a natural state, which was always there all the time. But he was locked into this idea of a separate entity too, like all of us are. And people think, well, that's the way. I've got to look at this I am. When he says stay in the I am-ness, I've got to repeat this I am, I am, I am. But he's not saying that at all. He's saying, find out what that sense of presence is. There is a sense of being present and aware right now, isn't there?
Well, it's just a sense, which we've labelled I am. And we've all labelled it I am. We take that sense of presence, the thought, I am to be real. But you couldn't say that when you had no words, could you? So you didn't have any words when you were born. So you couldn't say it. But you were alive, then you were living then. And that presence awareness was there, that sense was there, but it wasn't recognised. Because it needs words or a vocabulary or language to recognise it. And what's that word Re-Cognise mean? Cognising means another, for me, I don't know if it's true or not, it's another label for knowing.
Cognising. And the Buddha told us that too. He called it a Cognising emptiness. A knowing emptiness. Not an emptiness that's dead or static. It's just a pure knowing. And that's another way of expressing Satya Kanananda. Being, knowing and loving to be. Sat is existence, consciousness, bliss. Being, knowing and loving to be. Awareness of being is bliss. Or an affectionate awareness. There are all different ways of describing the same thing. With the word. If we didn't have those words, how could we describe it? Couldn't say. So stay with the sense of presence. That's the important thing. The I Am-ness or the sense of presence. I know.
There is a knowing there. A constant knowing. Or a wearing. Anybody unaware right now, at this moment, you say no. You realise, the realisation is no, I'm not unaware. I must be aware if I'm not unaware because there's either awareness or unawareness. Mm. But if I'm not unaware, I must be aware. And if the awareness is seemingly lost for a moment, when you don't recognise it anymore, you say, oh I lost, I moved away from awareness. If the awareness is being, could you move away from it? Did the being stop when you thought you were unaware? No. The being and knowing were still there. And the loving to be was still there.
So though the word awareness or whatever, even if it was awareness, disappeared, you weren't unaware. So the word, the label we put on it, is not the thing. And that's what words do. We put concepts, labels on everything. You go into a shop with all sorts of gear in it, and most of it will have a label on it, with the price tag. You don't buy the label when you go into the shop. You look at the price, if you like the shirt or the coat or whatever it is, you'll walk out with that. And it might have a label still on it. But you'll know that the label is not a bit of good.
The only good it does is it discriminates one thing from another, if you're unsure of it. Mm. So, while you're unsure that you are the totality, you are the absolute, you need the labels and need the words. But it's all absolute. Totality. Everything is absolute. And the Mahavacaya, the great mantra is, I am that. That sense of presence, that I am-ness, we put the that on it. And realize that's how it is. Because everything is that. That's the tree, that's the flower, that's the sky, that's the space. That's the concepts you create. That's the concepts you got about it. That's the godliness of it. Everything is that, which we put words on to discriminate it.
And what does Italian Ninh Sing mean? When no discriminating thoughts arise, the old mind ceases to be. And the old mind ceases to be, that means that belief in some of the old concepts ceases to be. What happens is that's a fresher new conceptualizing or being. And you are that. I am that. Know the truth. The truth will set you free. What is there the need to be free from? If you believe you're not free, you must be bound. Because that's how it functions in the Pairs of Elisir. Now if you're bound, what do you bound up in? Concepts, ideas, words, images, thoughts. Without the thought, you can't say it's good, bad, pleasant, positive, good.
No limitations on it. It's just fresher new and immediate. That's the truth. You're free of the belief. And see that as so, because belief is a word. Look in your dictionary. You've got all these words which have been learnt over the years. And put meanings put to them and they can make dictionaries out of defining the words. And the definition of phenomena or belief, the definition of belief I should say, is that which appears to be. No. Well that's one way of putting it. The definition of belief is unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason. Unquestioned. Means we haven't investigated, haven't looked at it.
We've taken it for granted. An unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason, acceptance of an alleged, without positive knowledge or proof. Because when you put this question, am I this body? Innately you know you're not the body because you call it my body. My shirt, my house, my car, my partner, my husband, my wife. They're all concepts. They all belong to the believed in me or mine. We think they do. But that's what discriminates. But when no discriminating thought arises, when you're not discriminating, the oh my ceases to be because what happens then? Without any discrimination. It goes back into its non-dual one essence.
The great perfection. There's a way. Look into your thoughts, feelings and emotions. Question them and see if they're real or not. When you innately know you're not those concepts, because if you were, you wouldn't go to sleep overnight. Because when you go to sleep the thoughts disappear. They're gone. Thoughts are gone. And if the thoughts were gone, it would be the end of you. But you realise they don't end in sleep because you wake up in the morning, if you're lucky. You wake up in the morning. But the discrimination, the words, the concepts are stopped. The capacity of reasoning is still there. But we never look at that much, you see.
This has been going on in our lives. All we've been interested in is learning new concepts, new words, new ideas, taking on new beliefs. Some of the beliefs we question. But then we can't go, seemingly standard, go without a belief, without something substantial. So we formulate another. Science, physics and all the rest of it. Put beliefs on and go into all this, discriminate, all these different things, set-ups. Take it to be real. Not realising. And then we can go on. We can go on. But it never changed from its natural, ever fresh presence, awareness, which is another way of putting being. Being and knowing is presence.
And we never moved away from that. And they say, realising. What do we do when you realise? You recognise, investigate and see something is not false anymore. If it's not false, it must be true. Another truth is it must be true. If it's true, it must be real. A lot of things that are not the truth, we see as false, like the dream. You can dream all sorts of things. It's not true. It's not real. And a lot of these things that we take on, these words, like fear, anger, depression, guilt, shame, remorse, are they true? Aren't they just words, concepts? Love, joy. What's a few others of the good ones?
Happiness. Pleasure, yeah. All those words, are they true? Not while we're living. They don't last. They don't last. Some will last. We'll keep them there. We'll keep going back into the false and believer. And seeing the truth of them and realising the whole manifestation is transient, it's constantly changing. Bound up in some of these concepts and things. That's what's causing our problems. What are you going to do? Stop them. Yeah, let them go. Yeah. The great way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. So that's what we do. We prefer one thought or concept over another. And we want the good ones and we don't want the bad ones.
So we're going into, instead of seeing it as it is, leaving it, just allowing it to change by itself, we want to bring it about now. We want to change it all right now. But we're going the wrong way by grasping onto a concept. See through the concept and then you see it as false. What must you be left with? Naturally, the truth. So it's not a matter of trying to gain or acquire or accumulate or add to something when you see through it's going to make you whole. It's a matter of seeing it as the burden, as the problem, and relieving yourself of it, by letting it go.
Just relieve yourself of it and let it go. And then, when it's gone, what are you left with? A clean slate. When all the obscurations are taken out of it, all the rubbish is rubbed off the slate, what is it? It's clean. So that's the enlightenment. You've taken off the burdens. It's not that we've gone to the bottom and we're going to acquire some amazing or wondrous sensation. Oh, what do you call it? State. State. That's better than every other state. We're going to find a God and become someone with this God who we believe is in the image and likeness of a man, which it's not.
And that'll be real. See, it's not. That is just the one absolute right here, right now, ever before your eyes, ever in your mind and your thoughts and everything like that, because there's nothing that could take place out of it. And realize, well, why didn't I see this before? It's always been there. Why wasn't it ever noticed? Purely and simply because it never looked. We never questioned our reality. We took what our parents taught us in the first place. Something, you know, some sensation would come up and they would say to you, you're angry, little Johnny. Or that is fear, little Johnny. Or you're just, you know, you're nasty, little Johnny.
Put all these labels on us and we've taken them to be real without investigating themselves. And we've learned all these words. And look and see that the word's not the thing. You go to school, your parents teach you words in the first place. Then you go to school and you learn more words. And you take the word to be real and keep reinforcing it. And words bring about other words and so it goes on and on. What have you become the wordless? The silence and the stillness. And recognise that words arise out of that stillness because words are sound. And when stillness or silence is disturbed, it's disturbed by noise or sound.
And when it vibrates into patterns, shapes and forms, like a musical note or a loud noise or a song, or then the words will make the sounds into, vibrations that form words. And we take these words to be real. But when you investigate the word and see the word's not real, it's not the thing. Take the word water. Drink the word if you can. If you're thirsty, go and quench yourself with the word. Word fire. If you want a hot meal, go and cook yourself a meal with the word fire. So don't you see, for the same token, this word we've taken on, when the reasoning started that I am, this is I, this is me, little Johnny, little Billy.
I've taken that to be real too. Is the word the real? Like Abraham was, I think, when he parted with the Jewish people, or at least were the Jewish people at the time, on the mountain, you're looking after a group of people and you know what people can get like. They become monsters or self-centered and try, want this and want that for themselves. But we put the words and discriminate it. And so he said, and he's pondering over this, but the intuitive, the spontaneous answer came up in that mind. And that's what it's useful for, intuition and spontaneity. These tablets came up, which are the so-called Ten Commandments, came up in his mind, which he wrote out on tablets.
Stone tablets. Now he said, I've got to sell this to the mob, to the people. How am I going to do that? They'll want to know where do they come from. I'll tell them that I am, sent them to me. Name is I am. And I am sent me, or gave me the knowledge of these tablets. And Moses is pondering over this. And he says, well, I am sent me. And he says, I am already that I am. I don't have to search for anything. How many of us have read that statement? And say, yeah, that's a good one. But I already am that I am, that sense of presence.
And he went back and sold that to the Jewish people and led them for 40 odd years or more. And that's what paid off. And that's translated as, I am is, I forget what some Jewish translation of it. Yahveh. I am that I am. Letter. Four letters. And I say, I tell you the same thing. Be still and know that I am God. They've taken out the is-ness. That's how it should be. I am is, that I am-ness that you are is the godliness of you. Then you can break that down. Be still and know that, know I am. Is. Be still and know that I am.
Be still and know. Be still. Be. Coming back to the pure being. Negate that. Say, try and negate the being-ness. Buddha said it's a cognising emptiness. Another word I use for cognising is knowing. Anybody who is not knowing right now, being, knowing, in that knowingness there's a cognising. That's what cognising is. Your cognising-ness or that or knowingness. And it's the emptiness that's knowing. Not you or I is cognising. You or I are the shapes and names and forms we put on the knowingness. They're not the knowingness itself. They're labours. Like they put on the shirt in the shop. Not the shirt. So he said that when you're working that out, it's the emptiness itself that's cognising.
But he made the statement, then about that cognising-ness, he made the statement that emptiness is form. Pointing out that that cognising-ness is patterning, shaping and forming. It's manifestation. And again, that the form can be nothing other than emptiness. Emptiness is form. So, that's all that's happening. We don't really, we're cognising emptiness. The emptiness is doing the cognising. But we relate it into the forms, apparent forms and shapes, and take the sorts and things to be real. See, it's the knowingness that is the reality. Is there anybody who is not knowing right now? And you can't say, I don't know. You can say it. But when you say, I don't know, who or what is saying it?
You say, it's me saying it. But there's no me. If you realise it's me that's saying it, there's no me. How can you say it? But it's still coming up. Who's saying it? Well, it must be the cognising emptiness itself that's saying it, putting a label on it, and vibrating it into the shapes and forms, with the forms which are nothing but the emptiness, and the emptiness is nothing but the form. Again, duality and non-duality. Can there be duality without non-duality? Can there be non-duality without duality? Can there be good and bad without the labels good and bad? Everything out there is not all bad, bad, bad, bad.
How could you label it bad if it didn't have an opposite? All the dualistic manifestation is because of this labelling, and because of this word we put on it. See how it vibrates or functions? There's a question, Bob, from Sam. Existence ends after death, so is I am-ness and knowingness? Existence ends after death, so is I am-ness and knowingness? No. It's all purely, always existence. There's existence, no non-existence. There's death, no life. It's just a being or knowing. Anyone who is not knowing right now, there's birth and death, life and death, it all appears in the pure being. Pattern shapes and forms in this particular pattern, and that particular pattern is seemingly the life essence disappears out of.
They will disappear, but does the manifestation dissolve or disappear? Or is there existence there? Ever fresh and ever new, because the existence itself is not time-bound, it's spontaneous. And only that which is born can seemingly die. And that which seemingly dies can be born. But the birthless, deathless, timeless, spaceless, bodiless, mindless, fresh, here-ness and now-ness has never began, can never end. It's spontaneous. There's no time, no beginning and no end to it. It must be spontaneous. What does that mean? Beginning-ness and endless. And that's eternity. Eternity. We believe eternity is a billion light years, starting with the Big Bang, and this eternity's going to end sometime, because anything with a beginning must end.
No matter how many billion light years or whatever you add to it. But when does eternity begin? Try and grasp now, or this for me, do you see? And you'll say, well here it is, I'll grab it right now. Grab it, and even as you're saying that, you know it's disappeared. And as you're looking for the disappearance of it, it's beginning again. And looking for the beginning of it again, it's disappeared. So what does that mean? Beginning is an end, it's spontaneous. Ever fresh, ever new. I have a good comment to that question on death from John. Clear pointer to the question of death. Does space or emptiness die?
Emptiness or space? Can you postulate anything outside of space? And the space of space, does space begin or end? If it's no thing, if it's empty, it's beginningless and endless. Now that's eternity, isn't it? I'll just add something, the question on the knowingness, whether the I am-ness or knowingness die, I think you explained it pretty well, that the knowingness is not the sensory knowing. Because the sensory knowing, like a consciousness, obviously when the eyes are dead, there is no seeing, hearing, understanding, thinking the way the consciousness does it. But it doesn't mean that the cognising emptiness is gone. The emptiness doesn't go anywhere, because it is not there in the first place.
Yeah. Anyway, that'll do for a while. Might be a few questions there to keep it going. Tell us. Megan says, nothing was ever born, nor ever dies. No thing. No thing. Julia has questions. What is love? I think that allowing something to be exactly as it is, with no need to control it, or make anything different, including the thought to be different, unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected, is love. Can you talk more about love? Love is all there is. Being, knowing, and loving to be. Being is loving to be. Knowing is loving to be. And you can't not be. When I know I am nothing, says Nisargadatta, that is wisdom.
But when I know I am everything, that is love. Love is everything, and the no-thing. Always and ever, fresh and new. The joy of being. A sense of wellbeing. Being well. Nothing wrong. I would only add that I think every conversation or every question should start, for the sake of clarity, from agreeing on the terms. Because love is so largely misunderstood. This is the term which may represent romantic feelings, or may represent attachment, or desire, or even possession, being possessive about something. But the way Bob explains love as everything, I love that aspect of love. Because when he says that love is everything, it means the everything, which is the nothing, the cognising emptiness.
It allows everything. It allows displeasure. It allows the viruses, the holocaust, the everything. Like nothing is excluded. It's something that envelopes, and as you said, Julia, unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. Love doesn't, it's like one could almost say that God doesn't care. But it is, of course, it's a wrong wording. Because it is the ultimate care. To care equally for the virus, as for the parasites, as for the one who is feeding the virus, as for absolutely everything equally. So it's nothing that, you know, like Bob sometimes says during the war, Germans were saying that God is on their sides, and Alliance were saying God is on their sides.
God is on their side. But in Buddhism nobody is sides. If God is love and love is everything, it doesn't take sides. It's totally enveloped, embraces, and accepts everything as is. Nobody was on God's side. When love and hate are both absent, the two ends of the one stick. I love to hate. Could there be hate there if I didn't, someone didn't love to hate? We've got a question from Tanya. How do you talk to people without agreeing with all the stories? You know it is not real, but they seem convinced it is. It is helpful to talk to them as if their so-called problems are real?
How do you relate to others? I relate to others with whatever comes up in the moment. Yeah. They'll go on with their stories, and I'll say a few words. They might, if they're open, and want to get out of the trap, they might hear them, and they might put their very words, and they might put their version on it, which you can turn a little bit and look at it in another direction. But how, there's no how as far as I'm concerned. If I've got, that's a preconceived idea, and it's not going to work anyway. Whatever comes up spontaneously might be some angry retort, it might be a smack in the mouth, it could be, who knows?
John says, just to see Bob is to be reminded of the entire teachings. He is a living word. Thank you, Bob. Love ya. Yeah. Yeah, we're done. John, we spoke of him last week. Yeah, I'll just add what's obvious. I'm sure, Tania, you know that, what Bob was saying, whatever comes up spontaneously, the more clean of yourself you are, the more empty of your own self you are, the more open you are to hear people as they are, without needing to change them or fix them. If they believe their problem is real, that problem may actually open your heart and the beautiful, compassionate love may flow.
And that compassionate love may be the changing agent. And after a moment, at least this was my experience many, many times, and still is, when I cry with someone who is heartbroken, after a moment, for some reason, energy shifts, because everything always changes. And the miracle of this changes. After a moment, they don't see their own seriousness. The veil lifts, the light shines. That's the way. I mean, it's not something that you can adopt or learn, but it is something that you are learning, whether you want it or not. Because by interacting with people, the computer there updates its database and see what's effective and successful.
And you have reward for the action that causes or creates more responsibility. And you have the sense of the love and gratitude. You have the reward in your own system because it is more pleasant. So, yeah, just follow your gut instinct. But it's good to ask those questions because sometimes the reminder can inspire. It tells you in the Heng Sing Ming, when love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised. So instead of dividing them into love and hate, just see it as it is. Express it as it is. And the very words love and hate, we take them to be two separate things.
But if they're both the one stick, one and a stick, does it really matter what end you're at? You know it's the one and a stick. They're not separate. You won't be so hard on them, or you might be more compassionate. Who knows what it'll do, but it happens by itself. And nobody can say what you're going to do or how you're going to do it. It's just a matter of knowing. Yeah, the main thing is not want to fix them. Love them as they are. Accept them as they are. What is? Because if you want to fix it, it's the you in the picture.
Exactly. And this is here, Heyman quoting Rumi, be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself. Paula Davis says, yes, I cried with my 90-year-old mom who was feeling sad, and can't see or hear and say it's okay to feel anything. And I will just cry with you and hold you. Beautiful. Tanya says, thank you, Bob. It makes so much sense for whatever, whatever spontaneously comes up as I am not creating what comes up. Thank you, God. Also, there is so much love and compassion. And Julia letting something to be as it is. To me is love. Yeah. Yeah, I like your definition, Julia. I would even say, but that's kind of, again, it's not a choice, but I would even say appreciating something as it is.
It's even kind of more, yeah, well, accepting as it is is great, but appreciating, seeing the uniqueness, the beauty, the mystery, you know, seeing the God behind it. Appreciating as it is. Everything is as it is, what is. It means it's what is, unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. Just as it is in itself right now. Julia says, yeah, acceptance is weak. Yep. Don't even take a stance there, an acceptance or a rejection. That's not what is. No. Neither acceptance, no rejection, no appreciation can, none of it can come of any doing, because that's just what shows up. It's non-doing, always and ever. My beard is shining. John says, can Bob talk on that quote from Nisargadatta about the dream and loving all of it or none of it?
Hmm. Yeah, I can give you the quote. He says, realize you are dreaming a dream you call the world. And he says, stop looking for ways out. Your problem is, The dream is not your problem. The dream is not your problem. Your problem is you love one part of the dream and not the other. So you're discriminated if you don't do that. He says, either love all of it or none of it. And this is the beautiful part of it. And everything will be done for you. In other words, the right words or the proper activities or whatever intuition comes up, it'll come up by itself.
And take you out of it, you know. Let it rest in its uncontrived singularity. Yes. Relax. The realization is there is you can never get the answer in the mind. What you gonna do? You're gonna give up and relax. See what unfolds. And it says, be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind. How will you renew your mind? Just keep reminding yourself if you get lost in it again. The mind's coming up with something that's not happening. Remind yourself, is this so? Is this true? Look again. See what's there. Right, isn't it? Tanya is saying, any thought to do with identifying with the body is just a thought, isn't it?
It's not true that I am the body. I am the body is a persistent idea, but I am aware of the body. So it can't be me, right? Yeah. Mm, really. Yes, I'll elaborate on this one. It is, that's correct. Whatever is an object in consciousness cannot be the pure subjectivity. Pure subjectivity is the knowing, the cognizing emptiness, the knowingness. If the body can be known as an object, it cannot be the knower, the knowing principle. But ultimately, the nature of body is empty, just like nature of everything else is empty. It cannot stand on its own. Body is made of elements. Body is also exchanging the elements by breathing, taking water, taking matter, existing in space.
So the body is just, even if you put it under the microscope, is just a buzzing, buzzing energy formulating atoms and particles and whatever. So the nature of body is empty. The nature of everything is also empty. So there is no difference between the body and nobody. So ultimately, the knowing principle includes the objects as well, but not exclusive objects. Like you could say you are not the body because you know the body as an object. But ultimately, you are every single body in every single form because they only a projection. Like if you dream about some people in the dream, those people are you.
They are made of the same matter, of the dreaming matter, the imagination that comes up in the dream. They are no different and not separate. But at the same time, you know them as an object. So the ultimate answer here is in between, is the paradox, is between the extremes somewhere. Both extremes are rejected and the mystery stays out. But for the purpose of investigation, totally you know the body because you know the body. You can chop, don't do it, you can cut your hands and legs and you still are. You can, you know, your body shrinks or your body is the size of a baby and you still are.
The body is a vehicle. It's like the radio is transmitted receiver of the waves, electromagnetic waves or the radio waves. And you are in a way, the body is transmitted receiver of the life waves. But again, it's not separated from the waves. It is just a different frequency of the same waving, the same energy. As all these things appear, what are they bound in? Can you find a centre of space? Can you find a circumference to it? Is there anywhere that space ends? Can you postulate or think of anything that could be outside of space? How could it be if space has got no boundaries?
So everything is the content of space. And space is no thing. It's empty of any shape, any pattern, any form, even though they appear in it. And the body is no thing. But if the body wasn't there, how many words could come out? Where would they come from? What would they be encased in? So there is a comment from Haman, when we are going to sleep and start dreaming, a scary and horrible dream, we suddenly wake up. And start saying, thanks God, it was just a dream. So therefore, can we conclude this separate self is still functioning in the dream as well? Well, when you wake up, where did it exist?
Did it ever exist? So when you talk about the separate self, when did that ever exist? It only appears to be so. And we postulate ourselves. So now we have a starting point. A beginning and an end. All with the words we have learnt in the conflict. John says, for my family in the teaching, wherever you may be, those two quotes from our tradition have helped me immensely. Maybe that's which one, those you were using. And now David says, popping in and out, love to all and God bless. And Sally, I have had a strong habit of pushing my feelings away and this association, this connection from my body and experiences.
I notice that I'm using the teachings to continue to do this. Is there another way? I get confused. Let everything go. I would actually say, is it really this association from the feeling when you give it a space? This association very often works as a distraction. Now, this is not my feeling, it's happening in the body. But if you really give it a space and let it fully, whatever it is, be it fear or anxiety or joy, you are the space for that feeling to make it dance as much as it wants. With. Full intensity without any avoidance. Like really, this is the allowing, this is the non-doing again.
But in a way, almost encouraging that feeling because it's so opposite to the way we usually treat the feelings. Whatever comes up, give it a space fully. This association often comes after you label the feeling. Without labeling the feeling, there is just being present for that volcano, or for that. Whatever the weather is coming up. So, I don't know how else you understand this association. The way I understand it is just kind of seeing it from far and diminishing it. If you don't diminish the feeling, you are not your feeling. The feeling is just a wave on the ocean. But if you are the ocean for that feeling to wave, you're not disassociating.
You're not running away from anything. You're standing still for it to wash over through you. And that is the liberation because being capable of doing it and not fearing it and not responding to it. Then you don't mind what happens. Then it just, life surprises you and for a moment the reaction is to the surprise. But in the next moment, there is a fresh and new moment. Now Rohan says, someone blind from birth would have a completely different life. Completely different concept of the body and the world. Good point. And now we have quotes from David. All doubts can be cleared in one statement. You are not that imagination in which duality appears.
This is dashboard 7543.2. The sign of the correct type of imagination is that it... It... Imagines itself as attribute-less. This type of imaginations help one not to forget one's self-nature. Dashboard 7533. Hmm. Yeah, even using a word imagination is really opening it up. Because it kind of closes down the issue of what's real or what's believed. It's all imagined. Image. Mental conceptual image. Yes. Tanya says, wow, such great pointers, Kat and Bob. I had never considered some of that. These pointers make it so clear I am that knowing principle and seeing the emptiness of everything. Thank you. Turn around the other way. Nope. Yeah, I can turn it the other way.
Have a sip of a nice drink. Vitamin C. Thank you. Zinc and everything. Minerals. Tass is replying to Sally. I like Kat's response to your comment, Sally. It is the process of what I'm opening into. The allowing of the weather patterns. It's like being a godparent to the inner child. Beautiful. I'll just add. You can learn, or actually life will teach you how this completely doesn't need to be a problem. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process.
It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. It's a process. completely unconditional way with almost a little bit of an encouragement kind of because of course There's no one who is encouraging anything, but With the curio, okay. Let's show me teach me Tell me what is it?
Completely not turning away from it, but turning towards it like Bob sometimes you use this Go straight into the fear or go straight into whatever happened or make it worse Whatever the feeling is that of course those are only Inspiration because there is no you to make it or to go to make it worse or to go anywhere but sometimes the words can inspire and And and somehow life responds to it. Hmm. You know comment on that and only look Look and see if you can find a steady point to it. Yeah Go back into it When you realize there's nothing static there I Think about what the hell's all this about There's all the songs But the belief is the solid and substantial.
I think especially and expressing in worries and mirrored you've different ways all interconnected Like that doctrine dent documentary watch the other night about the turtles. I used to tell one about these honey badger and dung beetle. But this one's a similar thing, shows that nature's functioning always in the same way. There's a specific night in the season of the year on some of these South Sea Island beaches. A little stirring in the sand, turtle comes up. And then there's more stirring and more and more beetles. And up they come, they're struggling. They're down about a couple of feet deep. They've got to get up on the sand, out of the sand, and then struggle towards the sea.
And they seem to know where the direction is. It's just sunlight, moonlight shining on the water. Gives them a thing to go to. And they all head off to get to the seashore. There's hundreds of them there. And away they're going. Some of them are going to the shore. Some fall down in between the rocks and get stuck. And then some will be grabbed by a crab or something like that. And then the seagulls will come in and pick them off, little things. And then they make the water. And some of them only a short length, just in the water. They probably think they're safe, if they can realise at all or think at that time.
But bang, the seagull will come in and grab them. They're not going to come in and grab them there even, other sea birds. And then the sharks will come and eat them. And there's very, very few who will make it. One of a thousand makes it to adulthood. Yeah. And then those that get in there have got to make it to adulthood. And then 30 years later, if it's a female, it'll turn up on that same beach and do the same process again. Made for 40 or 50 eggs. And even when those eggs are buried, some of the native population will come along and dig them up or cook them and eat them.
So everybody's having a go at it. But life is living on life, constantly. No static point anywhere. Just the same as I was saying, the pine cones on the tree outside here are full of seeds. The birds will come along and pick those seed, pine cones apart. And eat the seed. But others will fall to the ground. Some will sprout. Some will get run over by the traffic going by. But it's always, nature's very prolific. And like the sperm and the ovum come together. How many sperm don't make it? And yet the innate intelligence and all those things can form them into the pattern, shapes and forms that they exist as.
The tortoise, the turtles, sea turtles, the dung beetles, what else? The pine trees. There's enough seeds in that tree to cover the earth in trees. Each seed, which has the potential to produce more, don't cover the earth in trees. And human forms cover the earth in human forms. But we don't make it all. But each one plays our respective part. What innate intelligence is diffusing these patterns enable it to do. A lot will succumb to this coronavirus. Like they have the plagues and other things that are at the end. Some will become ill. Some will be killed in car crashes, motor cars, all sorts of accidents.
Some will be murdered. But life is constantly living on life. So what would be the most important thing to do? We've got this capacity of reasoning, which we believe to be. Wouldn't it be important to try and recognize your true nature? The animals and birds and insects can't do that. You've got to take it as a game. We can. Self-will or self-effort. That innate intelligence. It's pointing to it all the time. How many of us take notice of it? Something might move us in the direction of going there. The alcoholism that I was into was destroying me. The cigarettes and alcohol were destroying me rapidly.
But something moved me, turned me around to look in a different direction. And it was a few words I heard somewhere. After going into the rock bottom, getting to the rock bottom, and going in it, and there was nowhere else to go. I didn't give up trying to work it out in the mine. But it started me looking in another direction. And the more I went up to that, the more it took me into that. It brought things to orbit, or took me to things where it would be exposed more. Until the seeing through it happened. And things were falling into place from that day to this.
And they're not always all pleasant either. They can happen in a bad way. But the thing is, the psychological suffering that was a big problem, a very big problem, causes us to think of ending a life and doing all sorts of things, had eased. And it just became a matter of living, spontaneous living. And letting live, letting life live on life, letting life form. And it's doing that now. And it's still going toward the ending of it. That ending might be more rapid, getting closer to it. Or it might last longer, which it has done, last a lot longer than what I was expecting it to be.
And if it hadn't have been turned around, I wouldn't have been here. My trying to work it out is pretty pointless. I tried that, or I thought I was trying it, but it was never me that was doing anything. It was only the erroneous belief. And you start to see now, when they say, the only problem they tell you in the Scriptures is ignorance. And what does that mean? Do we think it means that I'm dull or stupid? Don't know. But don't take it as ordinary and ever straightforward, Manny. It means we're ignorant. Ignoring our true nature. And focusing to this believed in conceptual nature we've taken on board, this body-mind idea which we think we can work it out ourselves.
But ignoring that true nature and focusing on that, well, that's self-destructive. Because this so-called believed in self doesn't exist. I have the comment from Sally. She says, I've been noticing and focusing on the awareness, what is aware of the feelings, knowing that I am knowing. So this is how she disassociates. Want to say something? Knowing that you are knowing is the pure knowing, isn't it? You don't have to add anything to it. I'm knowing this, I'm knowing that. And you can't take away that I don't know from it. So that's spontaneous. Natural knowing. Which is being, also being, the being the knowing, and the loving to be.
Satyaginanda. And you're discarding the name and form. The Sally is the pattern, the body-mind entity. Discarding that and you're living. That knowingness is doing the living. Yes, and also the I am. Like who is? Who is that knowing I am? Is there really anyone there? Because if there is someone there, who knows about that someone? So if you are focusing on the awareness, like who is knowing? Let's say there is a feeling. Let's say there is anxiety. And there is me knowing about the anxiety. But who knows about that me? Is there some other place from which the me is known? And where is that place?
Maybe it is just a vague sense of space and nothing in particular. Because I can see what you meant when you say that you disassociate. Of course, if there is a feeling and you shift the attention to who is feeling the feeling, oh, there is me feeling the feeling and I'm staying with the me rather than with the feeling, you're right, that's the disassociation. But the me is imagined. There is no one there. It feels like there is. But how do you know? You know it because it is known from somewhere. It is known in the space. So the me watching anxiety, it is also appearance.
It is not the ultimate me. The ultimate me cannot be found. The knowing is there, but the me cannot be found. The one that knows cannot be found. So in the absence of the subject, there is only knowing, emptiness and the feeling. In this way you can't move away from the feeling because that's all there is in the conscious awareness in the moment. There is no middle man somewhere who does the knowing of the feeling. If that middle man is gone, there is no disassociation. So just keep looking. When the knowing I am comes, where do you know it from? How do you know the knowing I am is there?
Maybe that knowing is kind of a vague sort of a sense or maybe it is a belief or maybe it is just nothing at all. Maybe it is just a way to disassociate because we were trained all our lives to deal with this. To deal with the raw emotion by how you call it, by running away from it and going to the head, to the description of the emotion instead. Because the description of the fear doesn't have that physical component, that strong physical component. So it is much easier on the body. That's what we think. But as every virus, the thought is once it infects you, it sits in the system.
It thinks you've got a fundamental solution to it. Yeah. And what is the word? Like you kind of change one thing to the other. So you change the raw feeling into the story about the feeling. That is, I am feeling the feeling. But the raw feeling, even without the label, is what is, what is. This is what the nature provides. This is what animals feel at first. No story about it. No explanation or interpretation. But just what is. That there is no room for disassociation because there is no one to disassociate. Yeah, simple. That's very well explained. Simple way, if you ask yourself, who is this happening to?
Well, the natural answer must be, I. It's happening to me. And then you say, well, who is this me? And you realise that me is a sense of presence. Now, does that sense of presence need a label on it? I, or me, it doesn't. It's a pure sense of presence or beingness. And so if you realise there's nothing there to put a label on, it's just presence awareness, which translates as I thought I am, without any translation. That awareness going to be the past awareness, going to be a future awareness? Or is it always and ever fresh and new and just present? And you're not relating it to anyone.
No. No relating to any separation. It's just the one. You were talking about death, and Heyman says death is just a mental conception. And Jane is adding 60 years of bonus life, Bob, in three days or four days. And Sherry is saying, I'm enjoying it so much. Thank you, and Bob, both beautiful souls, thank you, Jane, for letting me know of today, and about today. And Taz saying further to Sally's earlier comment on this association, I'm recognising that there is no particular me being present to anything that arises. In fact, if it is this so-called me, then the experience is filtered through its programming. So with true presence, strength of love, of encouragement, as Kat spoke of earlier, there is, is there to liberate any of resistance that keeps the relationship of the me and the named feeling alive?
Glimpses of being are shining through. Excellent. Excellent. Tasso. Tasso. No particular, what did he say, no particular sense of presence there at all. No particular one. So with true presence, strength of love, of encouragement, as Kat spoke of earlier, there is, is there to liberate any of the resistance that keeps the relationship of me and the named feeling alive? Glimpses of being are shining through. And Jane says, there is only being, knowing, loving. And Heyman, inquire to that which concerns anxiety and depression rather than anxiety and depression itself. That's, yeah, good point. Who cares? Yeah. Good. Simplicity is when the mind is not, Heyman says.
And John, so happy to spend my Saturday night with my family. Thanks to all for their beautiful thoughts and questions. True presence is totally tasteless, says Heyman. Good, good, good, good. I must be thinking, there's nothing good or bad in this when I think of it. Thinking happens. Yeah. That's the main thing. Keep it in its simplicity. Tass says, Bob just called me Tasso. That is what I was called as a child. Loved hearing it. Just came up. Yeah. Taking you back to your childhood, that couldn't have been too bad anyway, wouldn't it? Very close to it then. Be as a little children to enter the kingdom.
Yeah. Beautiful. Tanya said, so lovely to see you smile and laugh, Bob. And lovely to see you also, Kat. Thank you. I won't tell you what I'm doing to make him laugh. Rough. Truth is simple. Complexity is for twisted minds, Julia says. Children are more truthful than adults in many ways, says Heyman. Yeah. Well, I haven't learned all the concepts. Especially babies. Yeah. Because when they grow up, they behave more like animals. They can be quite cruel and bullying. Yeah. Caroline, how Bob long time to now see. Great to hear you clear, direct and simple pointers again. Tanya laughing, whatever you're doing is okay. Yes, he enjoys that.
Hmm. Had enough? Okay. Well, thank you all. Thank you, everyone. And good to hear the inquiry, how it's going. Yeah. And the resonance and recognition that's taking place there. Once it started, keep going that way and it's got you. It's got you. Yeah. Like Nsakadata says, putting a match in a bale of cotton. The bale of cotton is very tightly pressed together. And you put a match in the cotton. And it'll start to smolder. And you can't put it out until it's all burned up. So that's what's a little burned. All your doubts and your fears and your anxiety and stress away. Keep coming back and recognizing.
Recognizing. Cognizing emptiness. Recognizing again and again and again. Reminding. I am already that essence. Yeah. I am the absolute. I'm not the poor miserable human being I thought I was. Suffers accordingly. And that suffering is unnecessary. Though it still comes along. Jane says, you are joy personified, Bob. And then, you know, what I'm doing to make him laugh is one thing. But what you're doing, keep doing it. Keep expressing. Keep pouring out. Yeah. Asking questions. That really makes him happy. That really makes him fulfilled. Because, yeah, what else? There is no other, no greater joy than seeing someone coming home. Exactly. That's why it works both ways.
Thank you all. Yeah. We got some thank you messages and love messages from many people. Thank you everyone for everything.