This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
Okay, so you can say welcome everyone. And I'll just say a few words because we had a comment on last Facebook video which were showing that people who watch us later don't really know what is going on there and they get annoyed because they hear a voice in the background and they don't realize. So for people who watch later, Americans or Europeans, the format of the meeting is just as it always is. Bob is going to be speaking for about hopefully 45 minutes, maybe an hour. And we encourage everyone who is with us to ask questions. And necessarily for the way it actually is set up, I will have to be reading those questions as loud as I can so Bob can hear them and everyone can hear them.
And then hopefully Bob is going to be answering them and I may answer some of them. Bob always encourages me. And expects me to do that. So if anyone is annoyed by that, that's unfortunate because quite a few times since the heap operation, he told me if I step down, he will step down too. So that's the way it is. There you go. So you can start. Hi. Most of you have heard it all before. Don't know what it's all about. Non-duality. One without. A second. Banky, a Zen monk from Japanese, 16th century or some time or other. Who cares? Made the statement, everything is perfect resolved in the unborn Buddha mind.
Why exchange the unborn for thought? That's very quite simple if you understand what he's saying. If the mind is unborn, what's the point? What's the point of searching for it? You won't find it. And when you look into this thing you call mind, show me your mind right now. You can't say, this is mind. You can say this is mind, but is it? Mind is nothing but thought. We put, again, when the labels come in, we put a different label on it. We call it mind. What's thought? Thought is a vibration. And the vibration is just a movement of energy. So it's the same pattern that's functioning in this universe.
Vibrating energy or movement, seeming movement, disturbing the stillness, the silence, the emptiness. And so when it says, when you see that you can't ever find a thing called mind, but we keep referring to it, my mind, my mind, my mind. And there again that points it out too, doesn't it? If you're pointing out my mind, whose mind is it? Must mean there's something other than the mind itself. The mind itself is not saying, I mind, I mind, I mind. It's my mind. So this thing that's causing all the problems is what we call mind. Which are just broken down as just a vibration of energy or thoughts, fear, concepts.
And they tell you that too. In Buddhism they mention it, the great perfection is non-conceptual. Non-conceptual is, it means that pure awareness. If there's, the mind is unborn, what is there? Anybody, there's another term we put onto it, is awareness. Anybody unaware right now? And you'll say, when you realise, if you ask yourself that, am I unaware? You'll say, no, I'm not unaware. So if you're not unaware, you must be aware, isn't that? Yeah. Proper reasoning. And if you, can you label that or describe that, that awareness? Without putting a concept on it or an image on it, you can't say. But you can't say, ever say, you are unaware.
That's all the natural spontaneous functioning of this universe, if you like, or this cosmos. That's all appearing in that cognising, what is called the cognising, emptiness. We think we are, got a cognising in there, so we have to cognise the emptiness. But who's the we or the why that's going to do it? Realise that the cognising, like the seeing, the hearing, anything in the I-N-G, happening right in its immediacy. The cognising is going on right now and it is the emptiness itself that's vibrating as that cognising. And he made the statement then that, emptiness is form. And that's how it vibrates, into patterns, shapes and forms, doesn't it?
Everything has a pattern, shape and form on it. And we put a label on everything when we learn words. Emptiness is form. And he says the form can be nothing other than the emptiness. Pointing out that it hasn't changed at all. It's still the emptiness. It's the same thing he tells you. Emptiness here, emptiness there, yet the infinite universe stands ever before your eyes. Doesn't mean to say it disappears, but it is emptiness appearing. And the change of that also, appearing it seems to be so, through the vibration. So when they point out it's one essence appearing, pattern, shape and forming, everything, that's actually as it is.
So you and I, and everything else in this manifestation, are just patterns of that appearing in that emptiness. Just like in the space, a wind stirs and starts moving the branches of a tree, or causing waves to appear on the water. But can you ever catch the wind? Or give it any substance? Can you say it's something here or it? It's just that empty space moving. And the call to... calls the seeming movement, whatever it is in the air or wherever it is. So you see, when we go on the search, trying to become something, and some of us go on for years and years, and seemingly never ever get it, and wonder why I can't get it.
I'm very serious, I'm very earnest. Well, doesn't it dawn on you, you can't get it, because if it's something, it's something that's going to happen. And that's the thing, because if it's all there is, which has been pointed out in so many different scriptures, you must already be it. And so, start from that fact. Whether I realise it at this moment or not, I am already that. And that might give you a chance to realise or recognise, recognise it. But when we are trying to become something, or looking for it, we look here, there and everywhere, and meditate, do all sorts of things. But they tell you clearly that you'll never find the answer in the mind.
As I just pointed out, there is no such thing as mind. The mind is unborn. It's a cognising emptiness. You'll never find the answer in the mind, but it mightn't have just dawned on you then, well, I've been looking all these times, and I think I'm going to come in, all the practice and everything I'm doing, where have I been doing it? It's been happening in the mind. I've been looking in the mind for the answer and never ever found it. And then the capacity of reasoning which is there, and naturally there, and has been with you for quite, as far back, by the time you were about two years old or something, when the capacity of reasoning developed, maybe I've been looking in the wrong direction all this time.
I've been looking in the mind, or trying to find an answer there all this time, and haven't. Because when you look at the mind, you look at that and try to investigate, and you see every direction, everywhere you've ever looked, has always been in the mind. And so how are you going to get out of it? If you're looking in the wrong direction, maybe you're looking in the wrong direction, what way is there outside of the mind? And you don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to work that out either. As you see, there's no way out of the mind. The only way out of the mind is full stop.
Don't go on anymore. Give it up. Just relax. Let it go. Any trying, you'll be trying to become something. And becoming is not being. And that's the way they put it in Hinduism, in Satyajit Ananda, Existence Consciousness List. Another way of putting that is being, knowing, loving to be. It's the same thing, but using different words. And can you negate the beingness right now? And you can't. Just to say you can't negate the awareness right now, you can't negate the beingness. And are you not knowing right now? No, you are knowing. And you are happy to be right now. So just the same as you are existing now.
You are conscious right now. And you are happy to be. So you see, you are already and ever that. And already and ever, not now. It means there's no such thing as now even. It's a timeless immediacy. Because grasp now if you can. You know, you see, everything is beginning right now. As soon as you say that, isn't it ending? Before you finish saying it. And as it's ending, is it a static end? No, it's starting again. So it's spontaneous. It's a spontaneous occurrence. It's going on spontaneously, always and ever. No duration to it whatsoever. And with the seeming changes in it, we give it duration.
We see this body changing, we call it aging. And we say it has a beginning, and it'll have an end. Well, anything that has a beginning, it will always have an ending. And that's why we call it now. Because it's beginningless. So you look at this world, and the physicists and scientists will tell you it had a beginning billions of light years ago, or whatever it was, whatever label they put on it. So anything that has a beginning will have an ending. But does the beginningless, or endless, it has no beginning or ending. Can you say it never was? And can you say it never will be?
If it never was and never will be, what must it be? It always is, as it is in this spontaneous moment. No label or concept that you can fit to it. No static point where it starts. No end. Constant, transient. Transient is change. And they tell you that again too. And all these things are there before your very eyes. If you like to read a few of the scriptures, and look a bit further into whatever you might be steeped in, your Christianity or your Buddhism or your Hinduism or Muslim or whatever, stuck in a cage of concepts. Concepts all around them. And every one of them will tell you the same thing.
There's only one. It's all one essence. Even though they're not in the religion or form they put on it, they're not practising it themselves. But that's what they point to. That's what anybody that's ever realised or recognised or understood have seen. That it is the one essence. It's no mind. No mind. No mind. No mind in which patterns, shapes and forms appear and disappear. And that's what they call Maya or illusion. A phenomenal manifestation. And your definition of phenomena is that which appears to be. So it's vibrating and appearing to be. So, put a lot of iron filings around a magnet. And what will they do?
They'll form into a pattern. But is that pattern actually solid or substantial or real? Let's not shift the magnet and the pattern will change. So there's nothing static about any of it also. So all these pattern shapes and forms are coming about, causing all these seeming problems we have, and all the appearances. But ultimately, nothing has ever happened. Nothing. Nothing has ever happened. It's a cognising emptiness. The emptiness is cognising or knowing. Seemingly knowing. What do you call knowing? Awareing or being. It's a being and a knowing. Again, that being knowing. All vibrating. Like the ocean. They call the ocean ever changing. Which it is.
There's always something appearing in the ocean. A current, a movement, a stillness, a wave, a ripple. Ever changing but never changing. All the pattern shapes and forms that change are appearing on it. Still, always, never and only. The ocean. Water. And it takes a lot of the hassle out of it all. When we've got this idea there is a me, a separate entity, an individual, a person, they're all labels we put upon ourselves, it's got to become something. Yeah. But they've got the wrong outlook on it and that's why it doesn't happen. There's nothing separate from it at all. And try and separate it. It's all interdependent on everything else.
Get this body. Isn't it dependent on the air, the earth, the space, the fire and everything else? And what are they? Isn't every one of those things dependent on something else? You can break them down and it's constant and ever transient. Ever changing. So when they tell you just to relax, settle down and let it rest in its uncontrived singularity, it's still that singularity. And allowing it to relax or rest in it, not continuing to stir the pot, what happens when you're not stirring the pot or not stirring the water? Doesn't it become still, clean? And that stillness is a lot more clarity because all the sediment settles down and everything like that.
Look at this. Look at the sky with the clouds in the sky cover the sun, obscure the sun. You can't see the sun. You think the sun's not in the sky. You don't think that anymore because you've seen through it. You've seen the falseness of it. And that's another thing that needs to happen. We say investigate and see the false. Investigate the false. Because the false cannot stand up to investigation. When it's investigated, it'll fall apart. It's not the truth. And you must be lived with the fact or the truth. And what's the fact that you have about yourself? It's the fact of your own being, which you can't negate.
That beingness is there, the fact that you're not unaware. You are aware. They're facts. You can't pull them apart anymore. But to say this, I'm this person, I am this body, I am this unhappiness, I am this depression, I am this anger, I am this guilt. Energy of belief goes into that. Which it grasps at the concepts and makes it seemingly worse. And that's what's been going on. When you were born, which you can't remember your birth. That's interdependent too on other things. Dependent on your father and your mother for a start off. Dependent on the essence of the food that they ate and the air they breathed that's formed the sperm and the ovum.
The sperm and the ovum is that essence of the food. The food was dependent on something else. And goes on and goes on. There's nothing separate in it whatsoever. Though there appears to be all sorts of separation. And with that separation, what do we cause? Problems, concepts, wars, anger, jealousy, envy, all psychological problems which are dependent on that natural intelligence and they couldn't be there either. So it's all interconnected. But nothing has ever happened. When you know that no-thingness, nothing is no-thing, not a vacuum or a void. It is no-thing. It has no shape, no form. And Saga at a point set out beautifully when he says, when I know that I am nothing, that is wisdom.
That puts you on the right track. It's wisdom. And when I know that I am everything, because the nothing and the everything are two ends of the one stick. It's both the same thing. When I know that I am everything, that is love. And isn't the love of being there? The love, the wisdom is that loving to be. Wisdom and love. And it manifests and expresses as that. So never get away from the fact that you are already that. No matter what the mind is telling you, no matter what you believe, and no matter what you're seeing in the manifestation, how it's expressing, and see that also.
Terrible ways, if you like to put that label on, in this world today. Terrible things going on. But it's all, it's two ends of the one stick. It's all the one essence that's appearing in its opposite. Look at your mind, the so-called mind, that you can't find or anything, and see how it functions. It vibrates and functions in the opposite. And what's your thinking? See how you're thinking. You'll see that. It's either good, or it's bad, it's pleasant, or it's painful, happy, unhappy. Sad, or glad, depressed, or at peace. It's always vibrating in the interrelated opposites. That's vibrating from one end to the other. And the words we put on, the labels we put on, are the concepts which bind us.
It goes from one end to the other. Clink, clink. That's the boundary. Put it, the word. And it tells you in the Bible, in the beginning was the word. None of this began until the word. Though it was all fashioning, shape and form, which you couldn't put any label on it, so you couldn't give it any beginning, any middle, or any ending. In the beginning was the word. The word was with God. This thing we call God is only a word. We've got idea or concepts of God, and all things were made by Him, by this word, God. Nothing was made that was made. There wasn't anything at all made that wasn't made without the word.
You can see that. We've got this idea of God, and we think it's some higher power. And it tells you again in the Bible, God made man in His image and likeness. So why do we take that to mean? Instead of saying, mine is just a vibrating pattern of energy, then the image and likeness are the same as the oneness. It's no different from that image and likeness, but again, we think that God is like man. He's some big, big thing. He's some big bloke on a big high apparel, a big daddy up in the sky, which is all depicted. You'll see the artists and everything like that.
He's rolling clouds of thunder and lightning around and doing all sorts of things. But man's not in the image. God is not in the image of man at all. It's the other way around. All man is is a vibrating pattern of intelligence energy. And God is that same, if you like to talk about it, same. It's the same intelligence energy. But we've taken it to be a higher power. Again, it's not that you've got the idea of a higher power or a greater power. What have you done? You've separated yourself from it. Separate yourself from anything. It's the power greater than ourselves, greater than everything.
Instead of separating it and saying, we're a lesser man, there's no ourselves. It's only the one self. Atman, the one self, not personal self, personal self means coming from the persona. And where does that word persona come from? That's Latin, I think it was. Persona of the mask. We've got a mask of concepts. A mask of words. And we've closed ourselves in the conceptual cage of concepts. Caged ourselves in. And you put a bird in the cage for 10, 12 years or something like that, and open the door, it won't fly out straight away. Because it's been going around for so long, it doesn't see anywhere.
It might, after a while, it will find its way out. But some might neither bother doing that. So go on forever. And we do. If we keep searching in the concepts to find a way out, you never will. That's why we say the answer is not in the mind. Take the concepts off. And the Buddhists tell you that also. The great perfection is non-conceptual awareness. Awareness without any concepts. Just that natural... You can't say what awareness is, you're not unaware. Realise that not unawareness without trying to grasp it as a concept. And see it's going on right now. And always has. Then concepts appear on it.
Thoughts, feelings, emotions, everything appear. Everything in this manifestation appears. A phenomenal manifestation. That which appears to be. It's only seemingly so. Just like a dream at night. It appears to be so. It appears to be real. When you wake up in the morning, can you grasp any of it? After a little while, you won't even remember any of it. It's disappeared and disappeared for good. But we wake up, what we don't realise, we wake up to this waking dream. And the only difference between this dream and the dream at night, starts and finishes at night. It might only last a little while, it might last a long...
But this waking dream seems to continue every morning from where it left off the night before. And it seemingly goes on, has some duration, concept of time, keeps it going for ages, years. And then we can put a billion light years on it or something like that. Some huge number on it. But it's momentary. It only lasts a moment. It doesn't even last. It hasn't got any beginning. It's spontaneous. It's all spontaneous. Have a look at those things. Have a go. Test them out. That's the ascetic of everything. Does it work? Test them out and see for yourself. If it doesn't, well, throw it away.
Go back to your old way of thinking. If it does, you'll recognise it and know the changes. Another way of putting it, let it rest. Relax into it. Not without trying to become something or anything. Let it rest in its uncontrived. What does uncontrived mean? Contriving means you put some shape or form on it. Uncontrived presence awareness. Let it rest in its uncontrived singularity. It's a singularity. Singularity means not to. Not to means non-dual. And there's no count that ever starts off with two. It all starts with one. And they tell you about non-duality, it's one without a second. The count doesn't go on. Leave it at full stop at one.
I am this. I am that in this immediate. That's the Mahavikya. I am that. Innately, don't you know that? Because you say, that's the chair, that's the carpet, that's the sky, that's the tree, that's you, that's me. Everything is that which we put the word on. And we didn't put the word on it and it didn't begin until you put the word on it. When did the word begin with you? And you go back and you'll say, you can't remember your birth because you had no words then. And you can't remember, so you say it didn't begin at birth because, but I was born, seemingly born, I'm around and around for a couple of years before I learnt any words.
And that's, they're the first things I remember when I learnt words. And that was around about two, two and a half, or it might be before or a bit later than that, doesn't, no exact time because there's no such thing as time anyway. Where it all began for you and it began for me in the same way. So, in recognising that and understanding that, if I live on this earth for a couple of years without using any words, I must have been prior to that. Prior to the thoughts and prior to the concepts and ideas. I was before them. And so, what I'm believing in the word now can't be the real.
And have a look at the word. Is the word the real? Take the word water. Drink it, if you think it's real. We believe this is water, or that's fire, or this is so and so. Drink the word if you think it's, see if it'll quench your thirst. Wash in it. Can't. Can't do anything. The word fire, does it burn your mouth? Can you cook with it? Go and cook yourself a nice steak with the word. Fire, fire, fire, fire. See if you can. The word I or me, by the same token, is that what you are? Show me this I, or me. Yeah, I'm not meaning your physical I.
You're seeing through the physical I. But then the I will tell you, the I says, believe we are, I see. We believe that the I, the thought, is seeing. I am. The sense of presence, translates as the thought I am. And you think I am the reality. I am the actuality. But it's the sense of presence, the knowing that you are, that expresses as the thought I am. And that's the I. And that thought I am is the beginning of all our problems, because that thought I am is what we call the self-centre, the reference point, or the ego. And that word ego didn't come into the old vocabulary, into the language, until a couple of hundred years ago, when it was Freud, I think it was.
140. 140 years. Yeah, well, 140. Cat tells me, and he would let me coin that word. But it's been other words since, similar to it, it would have been coined before that, you know. Id, or something like that, or Soma, or Soma, or what is it? Different other words. Self. Yeah. But the last one we put upon it is self, and take it to be personal self, persona, mask, a conceptual image. When you put a mask on, what do you do? Doesn't it block the sun, the seeing a bit? Doesn't it obscure the view a bit? Doesn't it dim the light a bit? There are all those sorts of things.
The clarity is not there when the mask is on. We put this mask on, and go and get the take of our true nature. Drop the concepts. If they say that the great perfection is non-conceptual awareness, pause the thought. Pause the thought and see what you can say with the thought paused. Or be still and know. That's the scripture saying, be still and know that I am is God. It tells you clearly there. If you're not, no movement, no concept, no thoughts going on, and that stillness is there, translating as a sense of presence as I am. It's not the I am or the sense of presence, it's the stillness of self, the emptiness, the cognising emptiness, that is the godliness of you.
And they call God omnipresent, omnipotence, omnipotence, total presence, total power, omniscience, total intelligence. They're expressing it as the three things as one. Three aspects of the one. Just like steam, water and ice, the three aspects of H2O. Just like thought, feeling and emotion, the three aspects of the thinking, really. All the one. You can describe it, pairing and different, pulled apart, trying to describe it or give it some reality. You can describe it and give you a good description of it, but it doesn't give you the reality of it. The reality is what you actually are. It is one essence or pairing, patterning, shelving, experiencing, expressing as everything.
And you can't be anything other than that. And that's when that mantra comes alive then. I am that. That is what I am. The sense of presence, the knowing, the reality, the unborn mind. Bodiless, mindless, spaceless, beyond shape or form, no when, no where, no how, just as it is. Isness is another label. What is? It means unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected, left as it is. It is perfectly resolved in the unborn, as Banke tells you. And resolved. It resolves itself. And it does. Leave it as it is. Leave everything as it is and what happens. It's transient. It'll change. It'll come about, it'll change, without you trying to interfere with it and make it happen.
And it does. Do you want some questions? Pardon? Do you want some questions? Yeah, if that's okay. Yeah, there was some, yeah, there was a lot of good morning messages and love messages for the two of us or for just you. And there is Tanya saying, I don't know why you would be annoyed at how the meetings are being run at the moment. I love these meetings. Oh, of course they are not creating their thoughts and there is no actual annoyance. Love you all, she says. No actual? Annoyance. Ah. Yeah, it's only a label put on the, on the life. So there was some. And Julia says, I'm grateful that Bob has allowed for the perceptions of apparent others.
This is one of the qualities that I have always been grateful for with Bob because sometimes someone else can say the exact same thing he was trying to express but for whatever reason, the same thing said in the same way in a different way got through to the heart. I'm grateful that Bob doesn't have the attitude that the, that only he should communicate understanding. I love to hear, I love it when I hear Katharina, Jane, Robin, Tony and others in the room contribute and add clarity to the discussion. I love that Bob is inclusive. Thank you, Bob. I love you. Yes, well how could it be any other way?
If everybody and everything is that and everybody innately knows it but because we've struck in the conceptual attitude that people have put on it over the years and being honest, you can't be that like God, you can't be that good, and people that don't like others to speak but when they start opening up themselves, they find that they can say it. And people know it. Yes. And they're hearing it and they can add to it. And isn't it the same message that's been passed down from whenever words began, been expressed in millions of different ways and there's lots of recognition in it. There's lots of it, getting the false beliefs in it and add the false concepts in it.
And if people say they don't like to hear Cat talk, well I ask her to speak. I can see she has the potential and I've noticed over the time she's been talking the changes that's coming about in there, the clarity that's coming about and the ease in which it's coming out. And if somebody doesn't want to hear it, well they don't have to. They don't have to listen to me either. Nobody has to listen to me either as far as that's concerned. Each one has the capacity and potential to speak themselves if they want to. Instead of putting it onto somebody else, I'm not going to do this or I don't like to do that, I don't want this one, I don't want that one.
Speak it out themselves. And if they know it, people will come to them. And then see how they like it when somebody says, oh I don't want to hear him. If they can take it, which they put on other people. Now if somebody doesn't want to listen to it because Cat's speaking, there's not going to be any skin off mouth on my nose if they don't. I'm not asking anybody to hear it or take it on board. I don't express it that clearly myself when it comes to that. No, you express it perfectly. But there it is, it's there for each and every one of you.
And I see when people start questioning and talking themselves, there's some beautiful stuff comes out of them. When they're sitting there silent, who's to know that? And as it says, as Christ told you, don't hide your light under a bushel. Let your light so shine before men. Express it and let it come out. That they may see your good works and glorify that essence, the Father, or that essence, where it's coming from. That's all it will do. It will glorify that innate intelligence in it where it can be more readily, naturally recognized in the so-called boundaries we've put upon ourselves and help loosen the bonds, bondage of belief that we've got around ourselves.
We have some more comments. Tanya says, wonderful word, Julia. I totally agree. And a few more hi messages. You have love for your step-granddaughter who is having a peculiar way of expressing it again. Sally says she loves to talk here. She's hearing me talk. Thank you, Sally. Rachel says that she loves it too. Thank you, Rachel. And Tanya says, do you need to surrender the thoughts, apparent resistance and negative sensations for the imaginary separate self to completely drop? You don't have to. Who's to surrender them? They'll fall away of themselves. If you can't, if you don't believe something, isn't going to stick around. And you don't have to.
You can't do so many things. Do you believe that the Earth's flat anymore? You don't. Do you believe the sea's blue anymore? You know it is. It'll continue to be blue. But you don't have to rob it or believe it. You know the truth about it. You're not bound in it. Do you believe in Santa Claus anymore? You don't. But it doesn't stop you from putting up Santa Claus every year because you know you've got some, when you were little children, you got some pleasure out of it. And you see your little kids can get some pleasure out of it today. But you know there's no, there's no old guy that's going to come down a million, well, millions of chimneys every night at a certain time and drop presents and things or all that.
It's impossible. Tania says she loves hearing me speak as well. I'm just going to add a word. It wasn't really to be about me. It's like, you know, ridiculous comments sometimes, like Bob's stepdaughter, she doesn't like my eyes, or his stepson, he doesn't like my teeth. Ridiculous nonsense that really says more about the person who speaks it than about me at all. Because if the recognition is there, the filters may be annoying, or the way, the accent, whatever, the movement, the mimics can be annoying. And that is just the pure energy that shows up. But behind that is life. It's always the same life. Even people who swear at each other, they're still alive, expressing a thunderstorm or any weather.
So it doesn't really touch me. It doesn't touch Bob either. He just kind of mentioned, because I mentioned when the, when the world was changing, the woman was lost last week. So that was it. Thank you for all the messages, who does actually, it is, it is really, it was really sweet for you saying it. Thank you, all of you. And Mukti says, this week I was in conversation and suddenly there was no thought or words forming. Absolutely zip. Joy bubbled up. Wonderment. The words came without me knowing what was going on. In an all in less than a minute. I've had that once before.
The mind just vaporized. Hopefully that's not Alzheimer's. No, I wouldn't say that's the way it expresses. Give it a chance. And then let it come spontaneously comes up in the immediacy. And we take over, as we drop back into the seeming me again and take, try to try and make it happen. But leave it, get out, so keep out of the road. It'll happen by itself effortlessly, naturally, spontaneously. Yes. There is, Helen is saying, if there are no others, then what are the people we form bonds with? I don't understand. You form bonds with yourself. It's one self. Take away this constant, this concept of division, of separation.
Then there's a natural bondage there, isn't it? And don't you resonate, somebody that you bond with, isn't there a resonation with them? You don't, you don't resonate with, somebody you don't resonate, you don't form bonds with, you don't like them. That's that inner knowing. And Tanya says, this is free to express any way it does. Exactly. That's the answer. Tanya also says, yes, thanks for the reminder. Who would surrender? A thought? No thought cannot do anything. Right. Hey man, it is not possible for Kat and Bob to be annoyed by any type of comment because they don't identify with their bodies and speakings and thoughts.
That's not only so true, but it also almost makes us laugh. Like if someone has the, the only thing they have against me is my teeth, I say, wow, what a wonderful compliment. I would find more faults in that body-mind. Nothing wrong with your teeth, Bob. I'll take them out and show you. See, words drop off after a while. And there comes nothing to say, nothing to do, nothing to be, nowhere to go. Now there's a beautiful comment here. Even the thing that waits for imaginary self to drop is also imaginary, is it not? Yeah. That's the most imaginary thing. Yeah. Kat, I never noticed your teeth under this moment.
Oh, thank you. It means they're not that bad. Not that I really care. Who said something about your teeth? Sean. Sean. You remember he sent voice messages? Oh. Good compliment. Don't carry that around. Oh, of course not. I'm laughing. Yeah. Most of what these people do is just laughable, isn't it? Poor, poor souls. Julia says, I sometimes have difficulty applying the idea of leaving things unaltered, unmodified, and uncorrected. Even asking a question is attempt to modify understanding. I have been, I have been attacked by someone, and I'm tempted to take legal actions, but that is a lot of modifying. If that's what you do, that'll happen spontaneously also.
Yes. Julia, if the life is moving you to take legal actions for whatever reason, don't go into a story about it, and you are resisting it, that's also modifying. So the best thing is to just wipe off the slate, to just have a clean mind and see what naturally happens, what movement naturally happens, without going into any explanations, justifications, because that is what is actually modifying, altering, and correcting. The thought, the story that is supposed to make meaning or make sense of whatever is happening. And Tanya says, I love sitting in as a silence with you, Kat and Bob. And Julia says a lot of thoughts about it is happening.
See, it must vibrate in the opposites. It's always going on in the opposites. When we're taking them to be opposite, we're wanting one, as the Sarcadet says, we want one side and not the other. That's the problem. But see that it's two ends of the one stick. The wisdom and the love. When I know that I am not, that is nothing, that is wisdom. When I know that I am everything, that is love. The wisdom, the nothing, and the everything are the two ends of the stick, one stick. And the wisdom and the love are the two ends. And also, the way you say it, Julia, is beautiful.
A lot of thoughts are happening. They are just happening. They're just the waves in space. They're happening to no one. They're just flowing through. They're just flowing through, like the little showers or the little sunny spots or clouds passing through the sky. They're just happening. If you don't give them any importance, they will just pass on. They move on. They'll change as everything else. Just, you know, you can also use them. Not only take importance away, but those type of thoughts, if they're really kind of obsessive, like people have obsessive thoughts or obsessive emotions, like panic attacks or thoughts about a broken heart or love who rejected them or whatever it is, it can be actually used as a reminder.
Every time that obsessive thought comes up, it could be a reminder for stepping back and seeing how that thought is completely impersonal. It's just a movement of energy in the space. You are the awareness of it. You are the consciousness in which that obsessive pattern, like an algorithm, like a really like a broken record, playing out in space. I've got nothing to say at the moment. Yeah, and there are no questions. But what Tanya was saying before, she actually really enjoys sitting in silence and as silence with us. Yes. And it naturally comes about. It's the beauty of it. It's the base, the screen in which everything appears, the silence and the stillness, the emptiness.
Sally is saying, my mind is regularly giving me pointers from Bob's talk. So then I am selecting to believe in my mind when I like the things it says. When she hears her mind is giving her pointers from your spiel, the reminders comes up. At this point she believes the mind. And again, Sally, it's not really you believing in it because there is no you. It is a natural revelation. It is a natural resonance or recognition. It's like the pointer drops down to the heart and it feels true. It sounds true. There is no little human or little monkey there who says, yes, that is true.
I choose to believe this. See, this is an absence of that sort of commentary or that sort of a controlling entity that makes it completely penetrate and ring through and just, yeah, relax into the stillness. That at least was how the pointers used to be. That's how the pointers used to work for me when I used to really listen a lot to Bob when I was still seeking. And then the pointer would come and open up and it will either show up in a beautiful new set, like a new imagery, or it will just completely silence all the inner dialogue. Julia says, I'm trying to substitute obsession about the issue for an obsession about leaving us nothing.
Quit trying. Yes, what's the point of trying to be nothing all along? Yeah. No. You see, we take nothing, again, the word, we take it to be a vacuum or a void, a complete... But it's no thing. When you break it down to no thing and see everything around you is nothing but things, all these manifestations in the... The chair's a thing, the mirror's a thing, the tree's a thing, the flower's a thing. The tree's a thing, the flower's a thing, you and I are things. Everything is coming from that no thing, the cognising emptiness, the space, like awareness, the stillness. Can something really come from nothing?
It can't. So it is no thing appearing as something. And we take the appearance to be real. So it's the no thing here that's speaking. It's an appearance. If that appearance wasn't there, where could the words come from? Could space itself speak as one separate voice anywhere if it didn't have a pattern to express through? Could the tree be a tree, one tree, if it didn't have a pattern to express through? So to get all this manifestation in its pattern, shapes and forms, divide up into seeming separate entities or things. But each thing is no thing. So it has no beginning, no end, no substance, no self-nature, but it can't...
It's naturally and ever expressing. Expressing momentarily. Not in time, not in space, just momentarily. But Julia, this is really a great idea. I would just word it a little bit differently. Instead of giving attention to the obsession and identify as that person in that little story needing to do one thing or the other and being torn and being obsessed, you actually shift out of it and recognize yourself as that knowing space because you know about that obsession pattern coming up, coming and going, appearing and disappearing. So you're not in the pattern or you're not the pattern because you would be disappearing with it. So instead of changing the obsession into leaving as nothing, you actually step down from the obsession into the nothingness which is always there.
With or without obsession, the knowing space, the consciousness is already there and you are that consciousness. Just seeing things come and go on it. So just, yeah, great idea. Just kind of one word rather than changing and finding equal options, you just step down from the illusion and rest in the truth. And I know you probably meant it this way just to clarify for maybe others. And Heyman says, be fully aware of your own being and you will be in bliss consciously because you take your mind off yourself and make it dwell on what you are not. You lose your sense of well-being, of being well, of true happiness, of being spontaneous and effortless.
Beautiful. Yeah, very good. Ah, he was quoting Kni Sargadatta. Alisson says, resting in silence of everything. Mukti says, I love that cut. That pointer drops to the heart as resonance. Which one? Probably the one I was just saying. Rohan says, what Bob said about renewing of your mind is so useful. When something comes up, it is like the pointer just comes to mind. Exactly what you just said now, cut. I guess this is grace. And Heyman says, your own self-realization is the greatest service you can render the world. You are the world. Yes, it is that romantic idea, the Bodhisattva who wants to save the world or help the world.
If you don't help yourself, how can you serve others? If you don't realize the truth yourself, how can you help anyone? This is the only way to help, is to take people beyond the need for help. But exactly as Bob says, you are the world. There's nothing wrong with the world. World doesn't need fixing and it doesn't really need even to be rendered a service. I mean, I understand the way analogy is used. But the other side of the coin, because the truth is never in the words, the other side of the coin is also true. Adrian says, there is just awareness with the odd psychotic episode.
Sorry, go ahead. There is just awareness with the odd psychotic episode. The psychotic... There's an awareness of the psychotic episode, also. Yes. Yes, just having a dream, dreaming. Michel is wishing every mother a happy Mother's Day. And Sally, I like when you said, Kat, about when the obsession disappears, you don't. So you must not be it. Yes. A little bit of investigation, the reasoning, you see that. And Taz is saying to Adrian, good title for your autobiography. The awareness with the psychotic episode. And says, there is nothing wrong with the world. There is nothing right with the world. Beautiful. There is nothing neutral about the world.
In fact, there is no world until we believe it is a world. Brilliant. Yes. Tanya says, I wonder why thoughts are so busy when I wake up in the morning. There is no me. So what's with all the thoughts, playing and trying to control the life, body, mind, etc. Yes, now, that's how it happens. It's hard to start up, but just lie there and look around the room without putting a label on anything you see in the room for a start off. Getting the habit of thinking about the world, thinking about the world, thinking about the world, thinking about the world, thinking about the world, thinking about the world, thinking about the world, thinking about the world, getting the habit of having a little bit more rest in the pure awareness before the thoughts start racing.
Also, just look at them as clouds, you know, like I have a soft spot for the sky. Bob knows about it. Every time we go for a walk, I have a camera and every little cirrus cloud on the sky, I'll just take a panoramic picture of it because if that's the way it's going to be, I'll just take a picture of it. So, if there was no thought, if there was just plain ground of nothing, something would appear anyway, something would come out anyway because that is how the Shakti dances. So, whether it is a thought or it is a sound or it is an object, it doesn't really matter what it is.
The problem is when we have a problem with that because if there is no problem, if the sky, if there are clouds in the sky, this beautiful pattern of, let's say, little cirrus dots on them, they are not really up, but they are too far to get entangled. They are not like clouds, which are just heavy rainy clouds that completely make you disappear in the fog. If you see them from the distance, they are actually quite profound and quite sweet and not a problem anymore. And Rohan says, if you can perceive it, it cannot be you. Absolutely. Heyman says, that which is concerned about thoughts is just another thought which contains more energy compared to other thoughts.
Yes, beautiful, brilliant, totally. Yeah. Concern is another thought. And Heyman got some hearts for it. And Tanya says, wow, so wonderfully expressed, Bob and Kat, what a great way to look at thoughts. And Julia says, when I drive or wake up in the morning, the head doesn't typically label tree, car or stuff in front of me. The head goes to labels describing stories and strategizing solutions for stuff that is not in current experience. Yes, that's the problem. We move away from the present into some conceptual idea of the future and think it'll be, we're going to become that or fix it at a future time.
Yes. And the very fact, Julia, that you can observe it and you can notice it, I think it was Rohan that says it. If you can observe it, you can perceive it, that's not it. So you actually are aware that not only where the attention is moving, not only to what the attention is attracted, so how could you be any of that? You can just see that movement of attention from one thing to another, from one story or thought to another, and enjoy the show just the way you watch the movie on the TV. Just see where it goes, what it does, and smile. And if you don't enjoy watching it, see who is it, what is it that doesn't enjoy it, that wants to change it or fix it.
Maybe that's just another thought. So include it in the observation until you land in a space that is completely neutral and completely okay with whatever is. If there is a thought and there is resistance to a thought and there is resistance to the resistance, they are all part of the dance and you are the space in which that dance happens. And that space is always neutral, always okay, nothing wrong anymore, like Nisargadatta used to say. Didn't he? Now Lily is asking, what does that mean or point to? If you can perceive it, it cannot be you. Would you like to elaborate? Well, there is perceiving, seeing, and the thought I see comes up.
Now, I see has become the subject, a seer. Me, Bob, this guy, and a good fellow, whatever concept I've got about myself, become the seer or the perceiver and that's become, what I'm seeing has become the perceived. So can there be a perceiver if perceiving was not there? And can there be the received if the perceiving was not there? So they're both contained in the perceiving. There's only the perceiving and when it becomes, without the, believed in subject-object, the same with the seeing. Seeing is happening, I see, I become the subject and the seeing becomes the object. So seeing is seemingly divided into subject-object, but there can't be a seer without seeing.
Can't be the seen without seeing. So what's the actual? The seeing, the perceiving, the hearing, the experiencing, the I-N-G is what's actually going on. But I see, I hear, I think, I perceive, that's become conceptual. So you see, it's natural spontaneous functioning is seeing, hearing, just the same as you're not unaware right now, so awareing is there, if you like to call it that, or awareness is there, but you can't say, there's an aware-er there, that's awareness of, just awareness of consciousness. There's also a very practical aspect to that pointer, like you see the sky, you're not the sky, you see the body, you're not the body, you see the chair, you're not the chair.
And ultimately, as the totality, you are all of those things as well, because they all, the nature of all of them, is emptiness, so they all empty. But you are not exclusively one thing or the other, so you are not only the body, or only the chair, or only the sky. That's where the pointer gets useful. If you can observe it, it means it has the beginning and an end. It came into the space of field of awareness, and it came out of it. So you must have been prior to it, because if it enters the dream, and it leaves the dream, and the dream goes on, you don't disappear when the chair disappears, so you're not the chair.
The same with, well the body is actually changing all the time, you're not the same body you were ten years ago, not even one cell is the same in it. So the actual functioning is going on, but it's not divided into subject-object. That will seemingly, spontaneously, seemingly be divided that way, but knowing the truth about it, again, you're going to believe it. You know though it seems to be so, or appears to be so, it's not as it appears. Like the water in the mirage, there's no water in the mirage, but it appears to be so. There's no blueness in the sea, though it appears to be so.
Also, Sharna is saying, I'm struck at how the whole trying to silence the mind is impossible. As the feeling you need to change the condition of anything, this is impossible. That is the very thing that keeps the mind busy. It seems only when you know that reality doesn't really require your mind's judgement, and that the future doesn't require any strategy, then a certain silence arises. And to say, the seeing or the moving, doesn't, happening spontaneously. There's no mover, or seer, or taster. There's all the spontaneous, emanation, vibration. Exactly. Yeah, I love when, I love what you say, Sharna, that actually silencing the mind is the very own mind that is trying to silence.
So it's like Bob is sometimes quoting Banke, is the ego trying to kill the ego? Or it's like washing blood with blood. It's never going to happen. It's ridiculous. Only recognizing, and that was also beautifully worded, that your mind's judgement is just completely irrelevant. It's unnecessary. It's ridiculous. Let it be. It doesn't matter. Just don't touch it. Silence arises when this is recognized. The mind is just a weather. And Heyman says, in fact, neutrality is not a state of mind. It is a consequence of being on the body-mind. Yeah, neutrality is a state. It is beyond the mind, before the mind. Yeah. Julia says, strategizing happened the other day during business call.
And I could see during the call that we were attempting to forecast the future based on past event. Being prepared often considered wise. Please comment on planning and strategy sessions. And Julia says also thank you to Sharna. Lily says thank you. Sally says thank you. Sally says how does this recognition fully happen that Sharna talks of? Silencing the mind with the mind is like catching a fire with petrol. Yes, I just add, Julia, that if you look, if you observe the nature and you see how planning and strategizing naturally happens in the nature, how the eagle is planning or strategizing, checking the territory, is preparing or hiding if it gets a kill, it leaves for a few days, and then the nature is directing.
Or even, you know, the bears, they're getting fat for the winter to fall asleep. Or the squirrels, they're collecting nuts and grains. The planning and strategizing is part of functioning. There's nothing wrong about exercising that natural functioning. What is painful is obsessing about it, is having a story about it. Oh, I shouldn't because I'm in the past. No, there's no you. If it naturally happens, that you find yourself booking an airplane ticket or packing your stuff to move to Australia finally, that is just natural functioning. That is what happens. When the commentary goes over it and in that commentary there is an I that has the problem with the situation, that's where the problem exists, in the commentary, not on the level of body doing its thing.
So relax. Keep planning what is happening and keep having no story about it if you can. Sally is asking, how does this recognition fully happen that Sharna was talking about? How does it happen, the recognition, that the mind's judgment is redundant? Well, isn't the cognizing emptiness happening now and things appear on it? Yeah. Spontaneously. There's no how to it. Happening is happening. Thinking is thinking. Seeing is seeing. Yes. And Julia planning something, strategy from some time back. There's so many things brought that together in the first place. That's what I say. It's not interdependent. It's all dependent on something else to bring it about. So in the innate intelligence, it's already forming the problem.
If it's going to be a problem, it's already forming the answer. And the words are spontanelistic. Have a look at the thinker again. Who's the thinker that's going to think up an answer? Or does the thinking happen naturally? And could it happen if all that information wasn't there for it to utilize? And I just highlight what you just answered to Sally because that's important. This recognition is fully available all the time. It is the silence in which all the thinking happens. So when the thinking falls for a moment, when the mind's judgment and the commentary quietens for the moment, that recognition, there is nothing wrong, is already fully present.
You see, the way Sharna was saying it, when you see the mind's judgment as redundant, if you suspend that judgment for a moment and see you're still breathing, your heart is beating, the world is as it was, and there is nothing missing because of that judgment or that story. That is the recognition already. Oh my gosh, yeah, it's not that necessary. I can very well function without it. Then when that judgment comes up again, oh yeah, okay, it's just a natural, it's just a mechanical pattern algorithm that just kicked in. But as I know, I can function without it. It's not that important. It's redundant.
Bob has a version of that. I mean, he's got the original. That was a version. What's wrong with right now if you don't think about it? The moment you stop thinking, you're fine. If you stop thinking, there's obviously no judgment. You're fine. Life is fine. World is fine. Everything's fine. So that's a proof that thinking is secondary, is redundant. That knowing, it may happen as a sudden recognition or a multitude of little recognitions throughout the day. Or it may be just a basic knowing without any fireworks or any breakthrough sort of ideas or sensations. Just the knowing. Oh yeah, right. Of course. I mean, of course.
Yeah, sure. That's it. It's natural state. Animals don't comment, don't narrate anything to themselves. They function perfectly well. So they can do it. That's another proof. Knowing that deeply down in your guts when you get a couple of experiments and see that you're fine without the thought or without judgment. Or even if you contemplate and look back at your life and see when your judgments were completely, ridiculously wrong. Or when your opinions or situations changed completely and your map of reality wasn't really that great. That's, that's a proof. That's, that's again proofs. It is something to know, something to understand. And recognize moment to moment.
And Rohan says, love your insight, Kat. Who cares what anyone says? Absolutely. My mind is blank. Enjoying it? Watch out. Your stepchildren might be hearing it. Yeah. Yeah, Sally says thank you, Kat. Another way of looking at things is, simple way, is seeing when they say, in the mind, no mind. And in thought, no thought. If you're saying, something comes up saying, no mind, no thought. You're going to carry on with the story then? Yes, that's a good one. In the mind, something starts up, it starts minding it. And say, say to yourself, in the mind, no mind. Like a mantra meditation. Yeah. In the thought, no thought.
No mind, no thought. Yes. But you realize then without conceptualizing, without adding more to it than that, you're still seeing, hearing, knowing, tasting, the function is still going on. Yes. Breathing, heartbeat, life, living on life, it's moving. And you are the life. Mm. Heyman is saying, for silencing the mind, you need something other than mind, which is the power source of the mind, which is the I stay as I am. Until you start noticing the mind start weakening and fade away. As Ramana Maharshi in his book also suggested, at the beginning, it might require some effort to reject thoughts in that respect. The one can occupy the mind with holding onto the mind, holding onto one thought until other thoughts stop coming.
And then after that, the one can go back as I am and stay as I am. Julia says, the mind goes blank when I listen to you. Rohan says, stand up tall. Do not be afraid any longer. Wait, there's more. There is nothing that can hurt you. There is nothing in this world that can actually do anything to you. You are free. You are the substratum of all existence. Everything is an image on consciousness. That's from Robert Adams. Two letters different from you. Yeah. And Mukti says, so enjoying being here. So grateful for you, Bob, Kat and everyone. Thank you. I'll just comment on what, when it is just, just a little bit of a clarification what you said, Heyman, about the effort that initially may be required.
It may seem this way, but if you see that there is no one, and of course I know you see it. I'm clarifying it for others. If you see there is no one to take credit for that effort, because the way the decision of putting effort happened is completely, completely impersonal. Like the strong desire or strong thought, which I didn't manufacture in my head. It just came up. If that strong desire or strong thought came to put an effort, the effort will be put, but there will be no effort maker in it. That will be just the body mind responding to that strong idea. And I also see why would Ramana Maharshi say it this way, because it definitely does appear this way.
And for many people like Bob, who was 16 years of seeking, different regimes of different meditations. I did some of it myself too, probably similar time. But yeah, it appears this way. But it doesn't mean it is a rule, and it doesn't mean it is necessary. It doesn't mean in every case it is required. And if it is required, that was Nisargadatta's quote. If effort is required, effort will appear. Thanks for clarification, Heyman says. You don't seem to need it, Heyman. It's just in general. In case someone... Yeah, thank everyone for the input. It's been very useful. Pointing out it again, it's not a one-way street.
There's always two sides of the coin, two ends of the same stick. So what's given out can be absorbed and taken in also. Yeah. And used. Yeah. Thank you. And also what Julia was saying, this is the non-duality spiel and discussions. This is not a Guru worship. That's why Julia was thanking you for having it inclusive and making it open for people to share their understanding and hear from each other, whatever is going to resonate. That is what makes it so effective. And there are pearls that come from the same in each so-called people that don't know anything yeah yeah because they are now people that's just the same life expressing through every single mouthpiece and also you are the planting those pearls that's another thing is somehow of course there is no you somehow the seed is dropped and when it sprouts you want to see it you want to share it because it can work wonders okay yes so we have thank you messages from everyone I think that's a good way to wrap it up we have thank you yes so everyone's saying thank you and I guess we all see you next time and join us on zoom if you can yeah love you all Julia say I think teachers who allow others to put them on pedestal separate the student from them you yeah and they are not the doers either and Tanya says there is no difference between us no us just this beautiful Judith says thank you Heyman says the one should be concerning that he or she must find their own way to connect with the source and stay as it because it is true way this is true we all are same beings but don't forget we are so different as body minds yeah thanks everyone it cannot be shared thank you Thank You we have pictures Rohan says I love what Terry says the only difference between you and me is that you think there is a difference that's not he's saying that's quite a famous saying but it's yes it's a good one I love you all love you Bob and yes well that was a great debate that was a great one in fact and that's true for us lots of love thank you everyone