Sailor Bob, nonduality. No free will, no rationalisation 09 Feb'20

Well, you know what we talk about. So you'll hear it again. Because... And it's just the hearing. Not a good hearing or a bad hearing. There is hearing that's happening. Non-duality meaning that it's right to describe it by saying it's one without a second. That's not two. One without a second. Not one without the other. So there is nothing other than that. One. I am that. That's the Mahavekkha, the great mantra. You are that. Everything is that one. But if we hadn't learnt words, how would we be able to describe it? So we've acquired words and taken the word to be the real and put the words we've learned into the text.

So we've got this believed entity or person. Person coming from persona, a mask. And you know what a mask is. Cover your face with a mask, you've got a false pattern that's appearing. Mask is made up of concepts. When they say it's non-conceptual, ever-fresh, presence awareness, they're describing, or trying to describe, the indescribable. Because that description can never be the described. A map can never be the territory. A word can never be the real. So we're using words, ideas, images, concepts, to try and explain it. How can you explain the unexplainable? You can't. But there's the knowing. Anybody who is not knowing right now, a wearing, if you like to put that term on, anyone who is unaware, you can look at that and say no.

You can't say I'm not aware. If I wasn't aware, how could you say I wasn't? So awareness is there. Even if you put the term I'm unaware right now, you couldn't say you were without it. So awareness is all there is. If you like it is, but it's not something you can describe. What description can you put on awareness? What description can you put on consciousness? The words or labels that we use, we know what they mean to us. Something that we can say this is consciousness, or this is awareness. This is happiness. This is sadness. All different patterns, vibrations, movements of energy, pattern, shape and form, expressing as everything.

Everything from the minutest particle to the furthest and hugest galaxy. It's still only and ever the one. Separate yourself from it if you can. And yet, we've got this idea we are this separate entity. We are this individual. We are this person. Look around you, all you see is separation, or appearing separation. All a tree is is wood. And you might understand when they say you can't separate the wood from the trees. Can you? So everything is that one. And we've lost sight of that in the using of the words. And instead of investigation, investigating and seeing, if it's true enough, we've continued to focus into the words and believe the words are the thing.

And that's the same way the vision goes on more and more. And the further we go on and the more evolved we think we are, the bigger the division and the words come up. The prevesting now, the new concepts to fit it into. But look at it, go back starts from the fact you can't go back. You can't go back, you can't go forward. Time is a concept, everything is a mental concept. The words never the thing, never was, never will be, never could be. When did your words begin for you? When the capacity of reasoning developed in these bodies, at about two, two and a half, around that age.

Before that, have a look. Can you remember when you began? You say, I began at birth. We've taken that on, and believed it. But can you remember your birth? Can you remember the moment you came into this existence? And even at birth, you can't remember, because, simply because you didn't have any words at birth. How could you have words then, when the brain is just forming, the capacity of reasoning hasn't developed, the seeing and the hearing, the tasting, the touching, the smelling, the feeling are happening. But we've got no idea what's going on without the word. So just a natural, spontaneous functioning. Now look out there in nature, today, as it is right now.

There's a total appearance out there that, cognising emptiness, what we call cognising emptiness, every pattern, every shape, every feeling, every emotion, every thought, every idea, every concept, everything is appearing in that. What do they call appearance? Appearance is a phenomenal manifestation. The definition of phenomena is that which appears to be. So it's appearing to be as it is. It's only seemingly what it actually is. It seems to be so. And we don't bother to question that. We go along with our school society and our parents tell us, and what we start believing, believing ourselves and reinforcing it. And that will reveal what is being revealed.

We take it to continuity of that sense of separation. Look again. Try and separate yourself from this manifestation. See if you can. That's what we need to do, to investigate and have a look. Because they tell us in the ancient texts and scriptures that the false cannot stand up to investigation. So if you investigate, and if it's true, it'll be the fact that you can't get rid of it. But if it's false, it must fall away. If you're not putting the idea or concept on that this is so, you see it as false, the false can never be the truth. Because like everything else in this manifestation, it's always vibrating in the interrelated opposites.

And I say interrelated because they are the one. They are the actuality, but seemingly related, seemingly a dualistic emanation. Never was, never will be, never can be. Are you the body? We go over all these things again for the thing we've got to go on here. Are you the body? You all know these things, I've spoken about them before. And innately you already know you're not the body, because you say, my body. And when you say my house, my car, my coat, my hat, you know damn well you're not the car, the coat, the car, the hat, or the house. You are not those things.

They belong to this conceptual idea, or they are mine. You believe they are mine. So we believe this body is mine, when we say my body. But whose body is it? Whose mind is it? Who is this me that you take as the body-mind? Isn't it the label we put on me or mine? Put that word, me or mine, but what's me? Is there something there that you can say, this is me? This is what I am? I am this, or that is me. I am this, or that is me. I am this, or the knowingness, I am it. The presence of it. It doesn't need a label.

Does nature need a label to say that it's daylight, or dark, or it's winter, it's summer, or it's cold, or anything at all? It doesn't know any labels at all. It's just functioning naturally and spontaneously. And you see all that darkness is, of light and all that light is is the absence of darkness and those two come about because the radiance of the Sun when the earth rolls, the part of the earth we're on rolls away from it, faces away from it, there's no light going to the other side of it so it's darkness. What rolls around and faces the Sun is light. There's no darkness.

They appear to be so, they are not so. You and I and everything, these so-called human beings appear to be bodies with minds and if you haven't got capacity of reasoning you won't know you are a body or a mind. What did you know before you learnt words? Have a look at that. Or as they say what's wrong with right now if you don't think about it? Without a thought what can you say and what is thought? There's no such thing as a thought really when you look at it. It's just a vibrating energy. It vibrates as words, sound. Sound is a vibration, is a sound Sound is a pattern of energy.

Energy vibrating and there's myriads of different ways it can vibrate. A call of a bird, the voice of a human being, a sound of the waves crashing on the shore. The sound of the wind rustling the leaves. The wind is not making any sound, or the waves are not making any sound. That's what they do. They rustle against something or move something. What sound are you and I making? The sound of breath even is very subtle until we breathe loudly. All sound is, as I said before, is a vibration, a movement of energy. And what is energy? Being a vibration, isn't it an activity? If it was still, could it vibrate?

Could there be any activity? Well, the cicada makes a beautiful song, beautiful throbbing of a song. Just the rubbing of its wings together, like that. A musical note, like a guitar string, or I'll put it in here, it makes a sound. And each sound has a different, what would you call it, frequency to it, or whatever you like to call it, what do we call a sound, a call a note? So everything is that. That is all there is. And in the seeming separation from it, the seeming division, the different concepts we put upon it, we form words, images, ideas, concepts, and take the sounds of the words, and the sensations, the feelings, and the emotions, to be real, are real in a way.

They are actually there. They haven't got reality we seem to put into them, into the differentiation of the words and the sounds we put on them. When were you ever away from that presence, what we call presence? Presence meaning pre-sense, before the senses come into it and give it the label, give it the sound of the feeling. That pre-sense is knowing, it's hearing, it's seeing, it's tasting, touching, smelling. When we put that sensation, we put a label on it, as hearing, seeing, tasting. And to put a label on it, we've got to put a word on it, a concept. It tells you in the Bible, in the beginning was the word.

This manifestation, though it was still patting, shaping, forming and appearing, has never had any beginning. Can you find a static point anywhere? If you believe in the Big Bang or whatever you like to call it, when did it begin? We try and put a time frame on it, or a label on it, billions of light years. But don't you realise that anything that has a beginning must have an ending. So you can't say when it began, because none of us were around then. And you can't say it has an ending, because it seemingly began when the capacity of reasoning began in that pattern you call you.

And it'll seemingly have an ending when that final breath, which is the spontaneous functioning, you don't intake it anymore. Or all the heart stops or something like that. So if you don't remember your beginning, you can't say it again, do you think you'll remember your ending? And there's such a fear of this thing called death. But can you pinpoint a beginning on this manifestation, as I said before? We can say it's a billion light years, and can you recognise it? Oh, it's going to have global warming, and it's all going to end one day. The pattern, shape and form might break down like it does in the body, and the insects and the birds and everything else.

But do you think it'll be the end of the world? It might be the end of this pattern, shape and form as we know it, but it never began and can never end. There's been light ages before, there's been ice ages, global warming, all these things have been around. They've come and appeared, played around and disappeared, just in the seemingly continuity of the movement. But where does the sound come from? Doesn't it come from the silence? Where does the movement come from? Doesn't it come from the stillness, the emptiness? When there is no energy vibrating in it, there is still that silence and stillness. The formless, the emptiness from which forms emanate or appear from, the stillness, the silence from which sound comes from.

And the capacity of cognising or knowing develops in these so-called human patterns as it does in other patterns. But it's more developed in the human forms than what it is in the animals, birds and insects, viruses and whatever else comes into appearance. It's only more developed and it's only developing in two. What are they? They call it evolution. It's seemingly evolving into bigger and better and higher objects. But who to? Where's the reference point that it's being measured from? Like the little child, when the reasoning starts, it starts from a better vantage point than we did. We can work these iPhones and things like that at a very young age.

Because that capacity of reasoning has developed in us and has moved along from one pattern to the other and is seemingly much more real, much more easy to recognise these. Yeah. So going back to the body and the mind, you're not the body, the way of the mind, you're not the patterns, shapes and forms. You know that very well. You're not the planet, you're not the stars. You're not the water. You're not the words, you're not the sound. You've got a body, a family body, which is pattern shaped and forms, it's seemingly solid. It's formed out of the emptiness. And that's what the Buddha tells you, that emptiness is form.

The form can't be anything other than the emptiness. So we take the form to re-real. The form is nothing but the formless, appearing to be so. And that appears and breaks down, which we think is birth and death, beginning and ending. But always out of it, other forms appear and continue to appear. And there's still only the emptiness. The emptiness, the silence and the stillness is the basic screen. And we point out that the screen is never corrupted by anything that appears on it. You've got a movie with all the things going on on the screen and that, is the screen, when your movie stops, is the screen ever torn apart or blown apart or got big holes in it from the movie and the violence that went on?

That's not. That's not contaminated or corrupted by anything. And the essence that you are, that's the pattern thing you're speaking of, is that basic screen. The basic screen, the emptiness which formed us, nama rupa is the name and form. Nama is the name. When that form you call you, the personal body, your call gave it a name, or your parents gave it a name. And what do we do? We take the name to be what I am. And the form that came with that name is the pattern through which that life essence expresses. That's the one that's doing, the life essence is the one that's doing the thinking, the feeling, the labeling, putting the labels, the words, the concepts and ideas in.

And the body which is formed to express through. So everything is expressing through that. Are you the life? You're no, you're not, without Christ told you. I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life. He's not talking about himself. He's talking about how it expresses through that self. Seeming yourself. It expresses how do you know that you are? How can you tell me that you are? You've got to say, well I am. That's the primary thought, the primary concept, the first one, I am. So it's that thought, I am, which is a word, a concept. And if you hadn't learned any words, would you have been able to say that?

But see, animals, insects and birds are not saying I am. They're not using any concepts. But the knowing, that they are, the pure intelligence, the activity of knowing, the intelligence energy. Knowing is an activity. Anyone who is not knowing right now. And you must realise, to express what I am, I've got to say I know, or I am. If you didn't have those words, you'd be like the cat or the dog or the bird or the insect. The knowing would be there, but you wouldn't have the conceptual label on it, which then acts from that conceptual image. So we act as human beings. Yet the dog or the cat will act as a dog or a cat.

It doesn't act as a human being. It acts as a natural pattern that rises up in the label. But it's never moved away from its oneness. Take your stance there. The I am, the knowing. I am the knowing is what I am. And that's what Moses realised on the mountain. These are tales in the Bible and that's all they are. Stories which try and express or point out what is the truth. And he's on the mountain and he's got a lot of Jewish people to look after. He was a Jew himself and he was in charge of them. They were going in all directions. They were doing it all amongst themselves.

They couldn't live peaceably together. So we tried to find the answer. We went up on the mountain and started contemplating, what am I going to do about this? It's a big problem. And the intuitive voice, what they call the small voice, the innate intelligence, if we're allowed to give it expression, will come up and run out. And it came to him and said, tell them I am. I am sent here. Moses realised there and then. Well it's that same sense of presence that expresses through this pattern as I am. So he realised I am that I am. And what do they call that? Yahweh or something?

I am. And each one of us knows that I am. So how can one I am tell another I am that I am? And that's what Moses realised. He says I am that I am. What more needs to be known? Or understood? Or grasped? And that I am is ever fresh. It's ever new. It's not time bound. Because we've got the concept of time and we don't realise it's a concept. Because we think we began. And it tells you in the beginning was the word. And you realise you didn't have any beginning while you were in the womb for the first couple of years of your life.

You were there growing in the womb and you were there for the first couple of years of your life. But you don't know it. Have a look back and tell me about it if you do. The livingness was there but you hadn't any concepts to describe it. And there again we look in the word and see as I pointed out before the map's not the territory. The description's not described. So what we're trying to describe can never be described. There's accuracy in this truth. But it is truth. And knowing itself is truth. And they say know the truth. Recognise the truth. Realise the truth. And the truth will set you free.

What are you free from? You can only be free from the belief. My self. We believe there is a self. And they tell you in the scriptures there is a self. It's the one self. That is self shining. It's as the sun. It's self shining. It's ever fresh. It's self knowing. It is the intelligence. It's self aware. It's self life. Living. When we put my self on what have we done? We've taken away from its absolute, its totality, and embedded it in this conceptual image we have about ourselves. This body-mind entity. This is my self. My self. I am this self. No wonder we get into trouble.

No wonder we're fearful, anxious and depressed. We've taken our self away from the absolute, put it into a conceptual image that has no power of itself. Can't do anything. Can't see. Can't hear. Can't be aware. Can't choose. Can't think. But we've taken it. We're not able to do these things. No wonder we suffer. No wonder we're fearful. No wonder we're anxious. Full of self-pity, resentment, anger. Because we've got this self we take to be real personal. We take to be real self and try to gratify it. Like everything. Give it gratification. Make it seemingly whole and complete. And it doesn't happen. And so when it doesn't happen, what's happened?

What does happen? They're ignoring of it and that's what they say. That's their problem, is ignorance. Not that we're dull or stupid. We ignore our true nature. We ignore that reality that we are and we focus on the conceptual, my new little image. And in that ignorance we suffer. Do you need to continue to do that? You do it, why do you do it? And why do you continue? Because we've taken on the belief that it is so. And even in your dictionary, look up the word belief. It tells you that it's not so. Belief is not the actual. And the definition in the dictionary of belief is an unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason.

Now that capacity of reasoning is developed in us too. And it's a very useful capacity. And we've reasoned and questioned a lot of things out and worked well. But we've never questioned this. This belief we are. The belief that we are this entity has never been questioned. Until you start on the so-called spiritual search. Then you start maybe looking at it. If you're thinking, we don't even do that. Because then we take a, started on the spiritual search, so-called spiritual, we think there's this thing called God, which is the word. He's going to give it to us. He's going to grant it to us. Well if not God, he's offside of the guru.

He's going to do it for you. Or we're going to learn it from this word, or this book, or this scripture. Though the truth is in all of them. And it says in the scriptures, and take notice of it, for those that have eyes to see and ears to hear. You've got the eyes and you've got the ears. What way are you utilising? Are you utilising and trying to work this out? Or are you going to stay in the belief that I am this person, I am this separate entity, I am this individual, and if I do this and do that, I will become. You become.

Become something. I don't think you have to be a Rhodes Scholar to work that out. Because it's just a matter of dropping the old beliefs and ideas and questioning and having a look. Have a look for yourself. Don't take it on what you hear. You need to do it yourself. Because you'll say, I can point something out and you'll say, yes, I see that there's no me there. And you can mouth the words. But then something happens and you say the me came back again. Now what bullshit are you telling me? If you see there's no me there and it came back. If something is not there, how can it come back?

Can it? All it means is we've taken on the belief again and invested the energy in the belief, which is not the real. And if you're not going to take that belief on, not investing any energy into it, where are you going to leave it? You're going to leave it right here, right now, in this immediacy, without trying to describe it or giving it any description, just leaving it as it is. That's a word we've learnt, is. What's it mean? Does it mean was? Or will be? Or maybe? Or not? Or does it mean right in this actuality, right in this immediacy, it is? Is there anything that not is?

Is not is right in this moment? Point it out, grab it, if you can. But we take it to be when we think we've lost it. This is-ness. We've lost this concept. We lose the concept, of course you can, because the concept is not there. It came back, but the concept can come back. But the is-ness is always and ever with you. And it's always and ever fresh and new. Non-conceptual. Without the mental constructs on, ever fresh. Presence awareness. That's a description they put on it. Investigate that. If I'm not putting any concepts on what is right now, isn't it ever fresh? Can't- when do you say is, is beginning?

You can't put a beginning on it. You can't put an end on it. You know, it's not a static thing. It's a constantly ever fresh emanation. Fresh and new. Beginning-ness. Endless. Meaning timeless. Spaceless. Is there any space in it? The is-ness is the space itself. Before the space in which the space, even the space appears. The is-ness is a pure knowing. Or being. Non-conceptual. Timeless. Ever fresh. Beginning-less, endless. Subtle. Very, very subtle. And that pattern and pattern, this form, this has been formed for that is-ness to express through. We take to be real. Pattern, shape and form breaks down. The life essence disappears out of it.

What happens to the body? Doesn't it start to fall apart? What happens to the words? Can they express through an image? A dead image? A corpse? What happens to the feelings? Can they express through the corpse? So the body which is formed to express through, it can't express through it. The natural expressing continues. Continues in other seemingly pattern, shapes and forms. Without a pattern, shape and form to express through, it's still that pure, non-conceptual is-ness. Not was or will be. Ever fresh. Presence, awareness or knowing. Ever fresh unknowing awareness. Anybody who is not knowing. That body that is expressing through, is it still and empty right now or is it knowing?

Is it so-called aware-ing or knowing or being? Try and negate it right now. Say I am not. I can say I am not, I am not, I am not. Doesn't it prove in the very saying of it, that I am? That's the life itself. It's saying it. If life wasn't there, how many words or thoughts or concepts or ideas can a corpse have? It breaks down and out of that breaking down, enzymes or microbes will form, get life out of it for a while, it won't last very long, and the remains of it, ashes or dust will go into earth again, and there might need to be a seed in there that needs sustenance, and with a bit of light and heat onto it, and what's in that microbe or whatever it is, that seed will sprout, and more life will come.

So out of that silence, that stillness, that cognising emptiness, the absolute, it vibrates continually into ever-fresh and new life, essence or beingness. So what must you be? This pattern we've taken to believe is me, that's got it, that understands it, or it loses it, can't do any of those things because it is. That's what isness is, is, unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. What's all thinking and feeling and emotion? This is altering, modifying and correcting, that's all it does, dividing, dividing the indivisible, putting two and two together, there you go, it was four or five or whatever, then you can say like the Christ did, I am is the way.

I am is the truth. I am is the life. Not that thought, but the sense of presence which enables that thought to happen. That thought that happens through the body. But it's all a one essence, pairing, patterning, shaping and emulating. That's all it was, that's all it ever will be, and it's what ever and ever is. Right now. You are and I am and everything is that. That is all there is. Innately, don't you know that? Because you look around the room and you see that's the chair, that's the carpet, that's the tree outside, that's the flower, that's Bill, that's Harry. In your eyes everything is that, which were the discriminating words on the label.

Hair, chair, Bill, carpet, Harry, all labels. And the word again is not the real. The map is not the territory. The description is not to describe. Without the description sitting there right now, what can you say? Well you can say a lot of things, but what are you going to say? You're going to say, I am not absolute. In the absolute, if there's all the nots and the no things and everything are contained. In the absolute, what can you take away from absolute? Nothing. What can you add to it? Nothing. That is what you must be if you're going to put a label on it.

Must be that absolute. The great perfection is another way of putting it. I tell you that in the scriptures. The great perfection is non-conceptual awareness. Awareness without any labels. Non-conceptual concepts. I think that'll do me for now. You're forcing me to shout louder. So get your, tell us all about it. You should know it or realise it. Cheek and quarks? Yeah. What? Cheek and quarks? You didn't whisper. Thank you. Before all beginnings and after all endings, I am. That's all there is. I am. There's no concepts. There's no questions or anything. It just sort of is, isn't it? Verify it in yourself. That's all. Sorry?

Verify it in yourself. And take your stance there. Take your stance where nobody can throw you off your perch. We can all sit in this room and say, tell you, you are not. But you'll immediately know I am. When you've got that belief, I'm going, oh yes, I haven't got it yet. I'm not. Know for certain that you are. The majority of people out there will try and drag you off that perch. Who do you think you are? I've had a default mode network. I seem to be able to just shut it down very easily. The only thing is that, and I ran this actually by Paul, there's no real dividend to it.

It's, yes, I find that I get by. There's a sort of thinking that goes on, but it's actually not aware of it. In other words, there's a task network that's functioning, but no chatter. But there's no aliveness to it. It's still dead. And I said that to Paul. He said, the mind state is capturing it. And that's deadening it. He said, you need to be able to spot the heart. Spot the heist where the mind is capturing. Dead was going on. So I don't know. But it's kind of nice, but it's not really any big deal at all. Because of that, it's just as sort of dead as it was before.

Yes. So I don't know. What does the doctor prescribe? What do you say? The chatterbox. You see the chatterbox is there, and you're able to shut it down eventually. Yes. What's there before the chatterbox? You think it's dead, but is it? Well, you could say that minus the chatterbox, that I'm just as miserable as I was before. So, you know, what... There isn't much of a dividend there. It's kind of... It's sort of nice. The chatterbox is annoying. But... And it is interesting to see how everything goes on just as before. But, yeah, it's sort of dead, really. You wouldn't grasp it with a concept.

It's everything given at life. But isn't it life itself? Have a look what's going on. You're still breathing? Yes. It's all happening. But it's no pleasure? Not really, no. How do you know there's no pleasure? You're trying to grasp it with a concept. Compared. Yes. Well, I mean, I'm... There's nothing happening at all, actually. It's just silent. But so what? You know, big deal. It's not... There's no... There's no bells ringing. No. You'll stay with it. Nothing. There's clarity in it. It's just... It's just silence. But so what? You know, big deal. It's not... There's no... There's no bells ringing. No. You'll stay with it.

Nothing. There's clarity enough and then... Give it a chance to go out. But what are you trying to compare it with? What about the traffic noise outside? There's no bells ringing. The wind noise? Is there any dividend in that? And for who? I suppose it depends which tram. If it's what I'm waiting for. Yeah, but isn't that... So, isn't that the way it is? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. All those things. Some things, some things, yeah. If it's the tram we're waiting for, yeah, and if it's not, there's no bells, there's no bells in the wind and the birds singing. Oh, yeah. Not necessarily. But they were before. I guess I'm hearing them better. Yes, there's no… It's fascinating to the degree that… How everything functions as before, without the annoyance of that jabber-jabber. What is? No preference, no partiality, no comparison. Yes. Uncorrected. Just as it is. Immediately comparison is gone now. There's no happiness or no joy. No bells ringing. You've got a conceptual image of what you think it's going to be.

Yes, I guess I must have a concept there which I'm comparing it to. Though I'm not consciously comparing it, but still I must be doing so. There is a lot of confusion also. I've seen one of the talks, and I think you actually sent it to me, about a comparison of the amount of pleasure and fulfilment of satisfaction with pleasure. People who have whatever psychedelic experiences, and people who have intense sex life, and people who are in abiding non-dual state. And those are rated the highest in the amount of pleasure and fulfilment. But pleasure and fulfilment are two different things. Because if you actually come back to that sense of incompleteness, and sense of lacking, and sense of wanting to add and fix yourself, that, when that one is gone, by comparing it, you can call it ecstasy.

But without the comparison, it's just the same state that the planet is in. The planet doesn't experience it. It goes around the sun, and it doesn't experience bells ringing or anything, or the tree growing, or the cloud passing, or the cat lying in the sun. They call it natural state. Or they call it ordinary awareness. Because it's very natural, and it's very ordinary. And because we have all those concepts, and I totally get it, because I was waiting for the big sort of, you know, ecstatic experience that will not only get rid of all the potential possible future suffering, but of any sort of displeasure at all.

But as we were talking before the meeting starts, there is no one that ended stick. And even if you were, got rid, like, you know, if we compare the society with the situation a couple of hundred years ago, when only about 30% of children would make it, 30% of children would make it to adulthood, because they would be, you know, decimated by plagues, illnesses, and accidents. Suffering was relatively bigger. But if we compare the mental health situation today, it seems like it wasn't. Like, people were coping better with wars and loss of children and plagues, because the level of suicide was much lower. So it is really so relative that, you know, the moment you get rid of most of your pain, the scale will start from the lowest to the highest, and that will be your extremes, new defined extremes anyway.

So the pleasure is not a, the absence of, or presence of pleasure is not really, it's not a tool to diagnose. No, unless of course you've got the wrong end of the stick. Yeah. Is that because you have the end of it, you don't have the whole of it? Yes. You have the space in which the stick appears with all its ends, and all that comes with it. And the manifestation, as long as there is manifestation, it will be dualistic, it has to have both ends. You wouldn't experience pleasure if you didn't know the pain. And funny enough, people who experience extreme pains, and who conquer the diseases, they are capable of more of a bliss than people who just never touch the ground.

They kind of, you know, so it seems. Quickly, just this. Nothing else. Also another aspect, see there is, there are such subtleties. Like, you know, I switch off the default network, because subtly I believe that no thought is better than thought. So I force it. You didn't do it, of course life did it. But life did it through the vehicle of the idea of me. So that vehicle, what Paul told you, that there is still the mind state involved in even trying to suppress or trying to bypass all that mental chatter, there is still an idea involved there that that's better for me. So there is still a me that wants something better.

And that's perfectly normal, because every animal in nature wants good for themselves, they feed themselves, they clean themselves, it's beautiful. But to actually see that pattern as a tendency to still trying to get something for me, and just smile at it. Oh yeah, okay. That pattern is there, but I'm not that pattern, I'm the awareness of the pattern. And then this... Yeah. And the beauty of the learning that came out of it. I mean, I hope everyone will hear what you just said, that whether the chatter is there or the chatter is not there, it doesn't really make that much of a difference in the level of miserability or whatever.

I'm still kind of a pathetic limited human being, not this. I don't want it the way it is. So it doesn't really matter. The freedom is freedom in it. Whether there is a chatter or there is silence, there is a freedom, you know, there is a silence, there is a stillness that you are. And if that one is conscious, it experiences freedom. We were talking to a friend yesterday, the whole half a night, who was actually very, very intellectual, very intelligent, can explain every little minutest detail of non-duality, and it's logical, you know. It's so, yeah, I want it. I want to teach it. Well, but can you actually see how indulging in that explanation and logic is still just a mental entertainment, is still just giving yourself a pleasure of rationalizing and defending and convincing?

While I was trying to show her that, you know, that stuff, that addiction can be going on, and a part of attention may still be resting in silence, aware of that mental, that mental noise. Yes. So I guess when Paul said, this is not a philosophy, this is not a path, this is not a ladder. No. Yeah. What's there when the concept of deadness isn't? Okay, well, I'll keep taking the medicine. Yeah. I think Paul's just saying that the concept of deadness is also chatter, but a quiet one that pops up. I mean, you probably notice when it does, but... Well, I'm very glad it's happened.

Yeah, it's a beautiful learning. Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't dismiss it entirely. We get very dismissive. Oh, that's not it. It's just as much chatter as that's it. Yes. Yeah, spot on. Everything is that. Yes, I guess it's... One is both the space where the chatter happens and the space where the chatter doesn't happen. Yeah. You know, the person who says, give up the process of the thinking principle. The process... Process. Oh, the thinking principle. Quick question. Yeah, go for it. I'll probably be using a few labels here. It feels like sometimes different people get put in your path, like at work or different environments, and it triggers a lot of stuff, whatever you want to label it, whatever insecurities, fears, self-doubts, whatever.

Not that there's a person there to have the doubt, but that's just... Sure. ...the reactions happening. Yeah, totally. And that can sometimes be ongoing when you see that person a lot or work with them or whatever. So I don't know if it's really a question, it's just a comment about what that is. Yeah, that's what happens. And over time, I'm using time, but whether that dissipates perhaps over time or something. Yeah, you'll see. I guess we'll see. It's like... What's all that about? But would you like that to dissipate? See the subtle preference here coming up, like, I would prefer not to have these reactions than to have these reactions.

There is a subtle me again that has... Subtle, yeah. Yeah, and you can just notice that subtle me and smile at it because you are the space in which that preference happens. And leave it as it is, it's going to change. And especially, especially when you don't... When you find that peace, that state in which, oh, there is certain intensity going on, people are shooting at me or they're humiliating me or they do whatever they do to me, bullying me. And then find the freedom in that, ah, I see how intense it's that going to be next time. I'm curious, I'm open. Like Jesus going on the cross, being crucified, and then theoretically, people were believing that he could stop it, but why would he object the Father's will?

You know, if that's how life wants to express and that's what it wants to experience through this body, let it experience to the fullest with the curiosity. Like I remember Bob saying on the Ross River fever that he had for four years, every day dragging himself out of bed or not at all, not being able to even get out of bed, and thinking, okay, see how long that one lasts. See how long, how is that going to turn around. See how is this going to resolve itself. And he is having some sort of disturbances, pretty bad ones lately. And again, this is the attitude of holding space and seeing how life is going to play it out and having no preferences, not trying to do anything about it.

There was a humiliating comment on Facebook about him which I deleted. He actually had a go with me. Why are you deleting it? Just leave it, you know. Well, it was too late, but I'll leave it next time. You're what's humiliating when you're not thinking about it. Yeah, it's just not necessary. It was irrelevant. It wasn't really about non-duality. It was some bullshit, some, you know, it's probably his... I'm not going to say anything. I know that's perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just me being overprotective, that's all. But the truth is it's just a pattern and I don't mind that pattern to be there either.

But if you find that place in which you are okay with everything that is shot your way, pleasure, pain, happiness, sadness, and you don't have the preference and you don't wish it to go, that's where you're free. And when you even think of how many things throughout the history of that life expressing through patterns has been endured by people, then whatever is happening to you is actually a joke. Think of the coronavirus or think of the epidemics that took place or anything. Think of anything that anyone goes through. Life is so diverse and is so... I like to take, again, Bob's life as an example because he's been living over 90 years and he's been through everything, including the war, including the breakup of relationships, including the death of the spouse, including the sickness and weakness and threats and court cases, all of it.

And just seeing that whole beauty, seeing that whole beautiful story, just the beautiful ride, it would not be as beautiful if it didn't have the down points. In the points of pain or suffering or fear, you actually relate to everyone who ever suffered. You open your heart for compassion. That's also something that is beautiful in a broader scheme of things. That's the way life plays out. And if not for that, you wouldn't know pleasure. And I hope it will resolve for you. I sincerely do. Whatever triggers you, I hope it will just stop triggering because, of course, nobody wishes anyone anything difficult. I hope it's not too bad.

It feels like there's some growth, but there's some growth, however you want to put that, for me as well. Taking it less and less on board. Yes, it's like more of a surrender. I know these are all terms and labels, but it's like to move through that, you become more evolved, more powerful or something. Yes, and it is less and less personal because nothing is personal. People who do it to you, they don't even know you. Even you don't know you, let alone anyone else who is outside judging you or having a concept about you. Years ago, when the President... What was the first book?

What's wrong with writing now? Come on. A lot of comments on it. One was, avoid him like the plague. I said, what are you going to do about that? He said, if they want to avoid me, it's their loss, it's not mine. It sort of comes up to me now as when you're not conceptualising it, you're actually getting more sensation noticed, more things going on in that one moment. So, left alone, concepts left alone, it's actually more vibrant and felt. It might be a sharp pain or it might be whatever. It's more felt. To me, it seems an entirely good thing, got a bad side, but...

I'm enjoying it more. But that is because the concepts left aside, the resistances are less too. So, even though it might be more felt and it might not be the so-called nice, feelings that people want, or the nice empty gaps they want, very quickly they're just sensations and they're just overwhelmed with like, oh, that's too exciting or whatever. That's why I got ran away from before. Those friends got ran away from. But yeah, more feltness seems awesome. It feels awesome. Do you know, I think it's very... I don't know about anybody else, but let's see, you know. I've got a friend, she's a doctor, she has a liver disease, you know.

I've had some, you know, difficult times in life. I mean, you know, when I went into hospital and had a hip operation and that sort of thing, you know. But I wouldn't wipe that out of my experience for anything, you know. I mean, there was so much that happened then and, wow, this is life. This is what life gives you. It gives you all these wonderful, different experiences and we label them label them good and bad but i mean the labels actually don't mean anything they're part of the the richness of this experience you know yeah and even the labels change apparently the psychology says that people who endure the biggest difficulties later on in life value them as the most precious experiences like even you know even a childbirth and bringing up a child which cost people my gosh what a time and effort and and patience and money and all of it and then later on they say yeah that's the most valuable role they ever had or yeah any difficulties that in the moment may you may judge them as uncomfortable or you may even feel that god is speaking on you or whatever but in a broader scheme of things it's always nice to actually open everything up just open that consciousness include more and then see the bigger picture i mean who hasn't said terrible things about their parents and then sort of course once you're grown up and an adult you sort of see those as wonderful gifts i mean even even i got my ears pulled and all sorts of things but it didn't do any harm at all yeah i got beaten up a lot but it wasn't good or bad yeah i've not seen his gifts though well it makes you who you are darling you know yeah but i mean that's not good or bad it just is it's just no but it's it's just it's just so undeniably not could never been any other way and that's not bad or good in any way it could be appreciated there is a potential for appreciation i guess because it doesn't just sit in the first place the other things that i you know dis and the and then appreciate like, so I diss having a checklist in life and worrying about being comfortable later and then when that goes I appreciate it.

But I suppose if it's something I never dissed in the first place it's not good or bad but not in an empty way. Yeah, yeah. And ultimately you're right, everything is neutral as it is. Yeah, except the things you experience is not neutral until they are. Until they are. Experienced that way, yeah. The intelligence energy is just creating every little second anyway, isn't it? It's creating every, coming together for every little... It's all that, yeah. Look at that, I forget his name now, that's my bad memories. South African Prime Minister, 25 years in prison. Man, did I? Yeah. Out of that, he didn't even become a Prime Minister.

But then he'll probably just see this next round. Or a window. Or a window. He'll just see... Or a window. Or a window. Oh yeah, yeah. But then they'll probably just see it as the natural way, you know, the natural way was to do a sort of political thing on the planet, that was their thing, you know. So they wouldn't ever really see it as necessarily, oh I'll get to be Prime Minister or you know, have to go to jail. It's like I'm doing my thing. It's just normal. What about Ourobindo? Oh well Ourobindo, didn't he, didn't he, he came from England after doing... some university course or something.

He started leading a revolution against the British influence and he gets thrown into jail. And into sociology confinement. And that gave him sort of like, as it were, the understanding. And once he was released, he gave of that to... so many people. Wonderful. Yeah. Still got a place going down in India somewhere, hasn't he? Sorry John? He's still got a... Yeah. There is the Matrimandir, this big temple. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. He used to hide out in Pondicherry because that was French owned, so the British couldn't get him. The French probably thought it was good-o because he was making trouble for the British. Ha ha ha.

And it was neither and he wasn't a doer. Just life flowing through. Yes, of course. Yeah. Yeah, so we were not supposed to do the streaming today because we don't have a full house and we don't want people to not come anymore, but we have 12 people watching, so... And you've done exceptionally well, beautiful. I could hear you from the end of the room. Hey. Were you tired after yesterday or something? No, the voice was pretty... Oh. The voice was pretty loud. The voice was just loud? Yeah. Yeah, there are better days than worse days. You were real quiet last Sunday, wasn't you? Yes. I succeeded in watching the previous weeks.

Ah. Mm. I'm just drawn to live. Even on the tube it has to be live for some reason. Just never do anything that's not live. So stuff from the States live or here live. Mm-hmm. And Melbourne live. I don't know why. It's just how it is. Ha ha. It could be energy. I don't know. It's just... Yeah. ...being, turning out that way. Yeah, that's a good answer. Live, just the three facets that seem to show up here is live, inquiry, and transmission for awakening. Awaiting just seem to be the attraction. Mm. Yeah, I like the way, and I was actually telling Julia who's watching us too, telling her yesterday, you're good pointers, you know, because you have such a good point.

You're good pointers, you know, because you have such a brilliant way of pointing it. Not justifying or not defending or not bringing logic, not rationalizing. Just simply and plainly. That's what I'm attracted to. Yeah, that is. That's, yeah, that's what is. That's what I'm attracted to. Well, very often people need the story that justify, you know, I'm doing this because of that. I'm doing this because that is logical. That is, you know, like all sorts of intellectual overlay, a support, almost as if they needed to, you know, to... I mean, they needed to convince themselves as if there was important to have the, you know, they were defending in court.

And finding that comfort in saying, yeah, well, I don't know. Yeah, I find myself here. Oh, I prefer life. I don't know why. Yeah, that's what's what is. That's what... I don't need a story. I think it might be because I'm not experiencing free will. Mm. So, it's not meaning anything to me. So, I see that I'm just showing here, I'm showing there, I'm showing where it's not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. I, I don't know. I think I, I think I, in fact I'm showing that I'm showing that I'm not experiencing free will. I mean, just, I'm showing that I'm not experiencing free will.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, that's why those stories are so obviously irrelevant to me. You know, they're just, yeah, would be something I'd have to create and add on. And it would just seem like such a farce. Um... Yeah, that is a brilliant way to explain it also. See, that's why it's like that, because it's lucky to not have the free will happening. Yeah. That, that is a brilliant consequence. It almost feels like you are explaining or justifying, but no. what you did, you actually gave a brilliant pointer in how that sort of a behavior is a natural consequence of really taking on board the fact that there is no free will.

So now there is no me that needs to justify or explain why it finds itself here, because there really is no me. And if there was, they wouldn't have any free will anyway. So that's beautiful. I don't need to do that argument. It's just like when I look, it just happened. That's exactly right. So it's sort of the diving in the middle. What's there? Well, that happened. It's just not arising. Nothing else beyond that's arising about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a blessing. It is a big blessing. But then other things come out, like, because I get very triggered about being understood. And so, because just about everybody has the free will to the bitter end.

Oh, I see. And I don't. I'm the kind of person who's so confused. I don't know how that does in any of my conversations. That's amazing. Then it triggers the like, oh my God, they don't understand me again. Like so many times I've said I'm not experiencing the free will of someone who has an awake experience. So they don't know what that's not like too. But then they keep overlaying that I must be on top. And I go, but they must understand that what it's like not to have that, you know? Then they've said, oh, I must be thinking that and doing that. And I'm like, do you hear me?

And so that's my trigger. I mean, it's just a trigger. But I prefer it the way it is. But isn't it amazing? It's an amazing thing to know and be aware of. Because if you see and you're convinced you have no free will, and there is still an assumption that somebody else does, that's a good thing to watch. I don't think anyone's got free will. I just, people assume I have it in various ways. So the triggers around, I know there's no free will and I know that's the case everywhere. I assume that's not the experience for everyone because everyone tells me that's not their experience.

So I can sort of see what they're... What people have experienced after all, the different ways people describe it. Yeah, what I was saying is that people then assume I'm experiencing free will. I see. And I get triggered by that misunderstanding trigger, the big, big trigger that I've got. I see. There's something fearful here, resistant about not being, not being mutual in understanding. Yeah, and that's also normal because, you know, I never met anyone who would like to have unpleasant projections on them. You know, I had people projecting all sorts of nasty shit. That I had in themselves on me and accusing me of different things because of the projection.

It's never pleasant and if you were not triggered, you know, it's like ultimately the projection of a society that you are a witch will bring you to the stake and burn you a few hundred years ago. So the projections are triggering survival instinct and it's natural and normal that you don't feel very happy if people project stuff on you that is just so far out. For me, actually, that type of experience is not pleasant. And actually that type of a projection was a trigger to the point of devastation in which I found myself when I came to Bob and he pointed out who is devastated really.

Because my ex-partner constantly could not see me. He was projecting stuff that was so completely incompatible with my own image of myself that it just created suffering. So this is actually healthy to not own the projection. But you could still be free in it. Because when you know. Yeah. You know that they just telling you about them, not about you. That all their projections have only to do with them. Yeah, that's not really understood. It still arises because I guess it triggered. But I am lately able to sit more with the feelings and the truth in the moment instead of just hiding in the bushes.

So yeah, there's definitely a bit more availability of sitting with it. Yeah. So what do you do? You just let it come out? I watch Korean dramas on Netflix. And then every time stuff comes up that triggers me, which is about people hiding love from love, you know, closing down and running away. Whenever that happens or being submitting to aggression, maybe in the aggressive takeover. I just like notice I've jumped up from the couch and I like sit. Oh, hang on. What's all this about? Maybe stop a bit. Or, you know, there is a pause that takes place. I feel a little bit longer. And I may continue running off to do something else or I may sit down again.

And it's just a lot more staying with what does it feel or just any feelings, you know, any kind of like when I was watching Paul, for example, on Wednesday, because he's his main thrust is about, you know, relevant to a lot of people come here. And, you know, it's about looking at, I don't know, what was it looking at right now? My brain doesn't even want to bring it up. Yeah. What's he doing? He talks about looking at what's not going on. Yes. Yeah. Looking at that from what you are. Yeah. For me, it's the opposite. So when he just like maybe two or three times in each session, he mentions that with one that works for me, which is the opposite of that, which is pre thought.

What have you got? You know, what's the if you're not thinking about it, that's one way to me. And it just empties me out. And so the trigger was cut. The same page trigger is coming up. You know, like. Yeah. So I'm again, you know, this gets taken personally, but the message is totally not the one for me. And probably it's for everyone else in the room, except that's fine. But this time I sat with a bit more and I felt sadness about it. And a couple of other little feelings come up, which I probably got run from or got, you know, backed off from.

So, yeah, just sort of feeling some of the feelings that went along with it. I was noticing a lot of the sensation. Normally notice a lot of that sensation that goes on when, you know, anyone's delivering an opposite message. It doesn't suit me in the room, but it's Bob or any people here delivering the messages that just my one. And I'm like, I didn't even see that one, you know. And yeah, I noticed sensations and I noticed the head's gone off to escape for a while, thinking about something else. I noticed that. But you're getting down to feeling sad about it and those sort of things maybe were things that weren't really felt and noticed, a bit more vulnerable and stuff.

So, yeah, even in the middle of, you know, a foreign person, you know, you're feeling sad. And so, from person coming in and it's a more less familiar environment and my being a good listener coming in, that was able to disappear a bit and just sit with the feeling sad from not being on the same page. Wow. If I were you, I would be actually feeling happy because you see what he's... I'm happy at the level of noticing that's going on, absolutely. Yeah, I know. But see the thing, why is it not really resonating what he is saying is just because it's just too obvious for you.

Yeah. I mean, Bob has the same thing. He also says, look from where you... From what you are at what you are not. And you know it, you know, he says, you're not the body, body is the elements, you're not your thinking. You're not the muscular, you're just trying to get it. And all those things. You discard it, you have already discarded that stuff. Yeah, yeah. So that stuff does you nothing. Yeah. So it's not really that you are not the same page as him, you are. You're not the same page as the rest of the room who maybe didn't really get it quite yet.

Yeah, yeah. So for me, it's a fantastic idea. I'm not a big fan of that beforehand, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But then I get the triggered by the moon. Yeah. The other trigger, the message is not mine. So there's obviously some, you know, some trauma, some stuff somewhere in the universe that is playing out here and being reacted to, whatever, you know. Yeah. There's really a bunch of reactions. And it's more joyful as it gets more into the cold face and the cold face doesn't hurt so much. The cold face isn't so avoided. And the reactions are okay too. Is it okay to have a cold face?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just keep going like that. Do you have reactions or not? Yeah. Well, see that, that's the sort of meta levels that go first. First judging yourself for being a bad non-jewelry. That's where that stuff went after a year or so, yeah, your luck. And then, you know, there's just the meta levels of judging the stuff drop off earlier, I think. Mm-hmm. And then you get down to just feeling the nitty-gritty for longer, it stays there because you don't avoid it and then jump in on top of that, you know, that wasn't a good thing to experience.

I want to grow, you know, clearly launching myself into other difficult situations at that meta-meta thought level. Because I see a lot of people going, oh, but it's just a bit tough to feel that, you know, or, oh, I feel something nice if it's, you know, and I'm like, well, that's not the point. Or at least that's not what's happening here anyway, so that's not the point of the story. But it's just a story based on what's happening anyway. Yeah, yeah. And also assumptions that you know what happened in anyone else. Because you can never know, you know, that you feel something less than someone else.

You can never know that. Yes, that's where you're quite good. And what's going on for others when they use their language as well. You've got a great facility to see where people might be going parallel in terms of what's going on for them and how they're languaging, which I don't kind of have that whole area. Yeah, you can only imagine. You can only imagine what other people feel and then compare. And that's not it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it is. Thanks.