Sailor Bob - nonduality - language is dualistic

It's that Bob is going to be speaking for anything between half an hour and an hour. Hopefully the longer the better. And then he opens it up for the group. So we ask questions, we interact, we share our own understanding, help each other out. And I hope there will be more than just me speaking, so jump in please. And we start from saying our names so we all know each other. I'm Katarina. Mark. Carl. Andre. Shana. Tony. Christy. Vivian. Adrian. Tess. Richard. Okay, we'll run through it all. Those of you who haven't been before, we can't teach you anything and we can't tell you anything.

Understand that right from the start. All we do is point to it and ask you to look to where we're pointing to to see for yourself. Because it's only you who can see for yourself. Nobody's going to tell you anything or teach you anything. And when you understand what we're talking about, you'll see why. There's nothing new we point to. We see it in all the ancient texts. It's the base of all the scriptures and all the ancient legends. Hinduism, for instance, they call it Advaita. Advaita translated means non-duality. They try to describe non-duality by saying it's one without a second. Not two. Only the one.

In Buddhism, they attended the same thing using different terms. So it's non-conceptual. Ever fresh. Presence awareness. Without just this, nothing else. Pointing out the same thing as Bruce said. That's this presence awareness. Just as it is without putting any concepts, ideas or images on it. Christianity will say it's omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience. Total presence. Total power. Total intelligence. Not three separate things. But the totality of the One. And the Jews will tell you, here are Israel, the Lord thy God is one God. There is nothing other. They all point out as the One. And obscured over the years through all the different concepts they put on for all the rest of it.

And people miss out on that. Take Hinduism again. Sat, Shiddha, Nanda, Nama, Rupa. The five factors. We'll have a look into that. Sat is existence. Shiddha is consciousness. It's loving to be. The other two factors. Nama, Rupa is the name and the forms. So, have a look at that one. Anyone who is not existing right now. Anyone who is not conscious or unaware. Well you know you're not unaware and you're conscious. Anyone who is not happy to be right now. So you're already that. Sat, Shiddha, Nanda. You don't have to look for the name that's been put on you by your parents or whoever told you you were so and so.

And the forms, the body which was treading through it. And it's saying the Nama, Rupa, the name and form are Maya. They're illusions, manifestations. And the definition of phenomena is that which appears to be. So all this name and form and realize you put name and form and everything out there is Maya. It's illusions. It's only seeing itself. So that's why we can't teach you anything or tell you anything. How is one illusion going to point out to another one? That's ridiculous isn't it? So when you go to this one and that one and read books and things we've got to find something or become something.

But now, so you don't have to become. But when you believe you are this separate entity and trying to become. The confusion comes on. The stress, the anxiety, the fear and misunderstanding. We take on board that we've got to become something. We've got to become enlightened or realized. We are already that. And isn't that the Mahavaki or the great mantra? I am that. Innately you already know that. Because they say that's the chair, that's the carpet, that's the tree, that's the flower, that's me, that's you. And what have we done? We put the name and form on it. We put the label on it and everything.

You are a person. Where did the word person come from? Doesn't it come from persona, the mask? An ancient language, Latin or something. The sign of the mask, that's what all these concepts are. So we've got this mask and we think this mask is going to become enlightened, realized, liberated. Conceptual image, that's all the mask is. Image made up of concepts. And all these concepts are words. Doesn't it tell you in the Bible, in the beginning was the word. The word was with God. The word was God. And that's all God is. There's another label we put on it. It's pure intelligence, energy or life or whatever.

They're all labels. All things were made by him, by the word. What was made was made without the word. Isn't that right? Aren't you putting up words or labels on everything you see, hear, related? And what words were you born with? Every word you've ever spoken or ever liked as a speaker has been learned. Look into that too and investigate. Because this is what we say. The false cannot stand up to investigation. You've got to look at all these things and see for yourself. Word, persona, the mask, that's what we put on ourselves. A mask of concepts. Not the things. Take the word water. Can you drink the word?

Can you swim in it? Can you wash in it? When you're drowning, you can't. The word fire. Does it burn your mouth when you speak it? Can you cook with it? Can you eat the salad? You can't. Now what's this word I or me? What are you talking about? Aren't you talking about this persona, this mask, this conceptual image you've got about yourself? You're dictionarying the word belief. Unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason. It means that say you haven't reasoned it out, you've taken it for granted. Acceptance of an alleged fact without positive knowledge or proof. When you put your belief to this test, they'll fall apart.

Conceptual image based upon words. But I say every word you've ever spoken has been picked up along the way. I ask it, when did you begin? When did the word begin? You tell it off when the capacity of reasoning develops in you. When did you begin? You'll say, I was born. You'll actually remember your birth. You can't actually remember your birth. Couldn't even be told that until you learnt words. You had no words. And you got along quite well without the word. So we can ask you a lot in feeding it. You were doing them properly. But you got along without the word. The livingness was there without the word.

That's what you don't understand. You can't say it began. You can't see where it began. Well go back as far as your father and your mother. Animating life essence. The pattern shaped and formed your father. Enabled him that pattern through the prana, the breath he was breathing. The food essence. You can't see it with the naked eye. But that sperm was suffused with an innate intelligence. It knew what to do. And the same animating life essence in your mother enabled him that pattern called your mother, a particle called an ovum or an egg to form in that pattern. That egg was suffused with intelligence. It wasn't floating around accidentally.

It attached itself to all the uterus. And the sperm knew what to do. It swam and penetrated that ovum. And when those two came together, the intelligence entity, the genes and everything in it doubled that cell. Which is what you are today. What were you doing about it then? Did you say I better grow an egg or an arm? Were you in the womb? Were you a bird? I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. You couldn't because you had no words for starter. But the life essence, which is actually what you are, the life itself. Life essence knew what to do. It's grown you and lived you ever since.

And about the age of two, two and a half, the capacity of reasoning developed. Which is a huge thing. And it's a big thing. It's a big thing. It's a big thing. It's a big thing. It's a big thing. It's a big thing. It's a big thing. It's a big thing. It's a big thing. It's a big thing. It's a big thing. It's a big thing. It's a big thing. It's a big thing. It's a big thing. But it has developed to a new capacity, a more well-used capacity than we humans have, which is much more developed than what it is in other animals birds and insects.

Well they have different capacities. Different to what we are. And they know what they're doing also. And the capacity we have, birds has a capacity of eyesight, that's much better than your eyes and mine will ever likely be but has the capacity of flying, capacity of reasoning, we've learned to build ourselves eyeglasses, if our eyes are failing, binoculars or telescopes which enable us to see better. and things, kites and things that enables to fly. The dog has a sense of smell, capacity of smelling, it's much more developed than what it is now. Chameleons can change colour, they can't do that. Grubs and caterpillars can form cocoons, and when they metamorphose in that cocoon and out of that grub which can't be, mightn't be the greatest looking thing in the world, they can come with a beautiful book, a beautiful book of code, with all those colours in it.

The innate intelligence knows exactly what to do. It's the same with us. We learn words. And I say we don't learn words to give out. And every word you've ever spoken, ever liked me to speak has been learned, it's picked up. And you've probably learned new words to this day, you've got a dictionary full of them now, Jim. I'm forgetting a lot of them, I'm getting tired of them. I'm forgetting to say the word's not the real. Just the same as the description is not the described. The map is not the territory. That's why we do it. All we can do is point these things out to you and look and see for yourself.

What we're describing now is not it, not the territory. You can get your road map out and look and see where Birkenwhite or Osh Road is, but it's not there. We're looking for the real world. We're looking at the map. You've got to go there. These pointers, follow these pointers along and they will take you to where you've got to go. In other words, the capacity of reasoning develops and that's a very useful capacity. But it's also very destructive. Because all the words are a vibration of energy. And have a look at that and see how your mind functions. Look at this line and see how it functions.

It's a dualistic vibration. It's always functioning in pairs or opposites. It's either in the past, which is memory, or in the future, which is anticipation, imagination. And in that range it's constantly vibrating dualistically. It's either good or bad, pleasant, painful, happy, sad, loving, hating, positive, living. Look at your mind and see if it functions any other way. It's a dualistic vibration. And we're talking about knowledgeability. When the child's capacity of reasoning develops, he starts to learn words of experience. Parents pass around to him, he learns a word. Tell him, you're a little Johnny, you're a good boy, you're not so good, you just do this and behave yourself, and you're angry and you're this and that.

Don't do this, don't do that, and all this. He learns all these words. And he learns the words I and me. Parents tell him, you are little Johnny. And they read through these words that I am little Johnny. Many have learned little Johnny, that I'm a good boy, or I'm not so good, or I'm fearful, or I'm unhappy, or I'm depressed, or I'm guilty. All these concepts have been put upon him. When he's misbehaved or done a little. This conceptual image we get about ourselves. And that conceptual image brings about the sense of separation. With that sense of separation comes insecurity and vulnerability. And that's when our search starts.

If they can become secure or whole. Because we've taken on the belief that we are separate. And that's when fear and anxiety and all these things take over. Shakespeare told you a few hundred years ago, he says, there's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. But thinking is the problem. And as Agadatta will tell you, nothing can trouble you except in your own imagination. When you investigate that, you'll see it's the truth. But break that word imagination down. To image in. Imagine. You realise that's all we're doing. Creating these mental images or concepts. Putting the energy into belief in them. Taking them to be real.

And suffer accordingly. Through the energy belief. And when little Johnny realises he's that separate entity. With that sense of separation comes vulnerability. And he's feeling very vulnerable. He looks out there and he says, that doesn't fit little Johnny. So that's not me. And when that comes upon him, he's not very insecure because he doesn't know what that is. So he can't be fearful of it. Worrying about it. Concerned about it. And all our psychological problems start from that point. Relationship. We're relating everything to this me. That me becomes a reference point. The self centre. Or the ego. There are different ways of explaining it. And that so-called ego.

They're told that ego is the problem. You've got to jump on it. Stab on it. Push it on the carpet. Carve it. Kill it. Get rid of it. Run there and on it. We say when you look into it and investigate it, you'll see it never existed in the first place. It's a total fiction. And who knew about the ego more than a couple of years ago? When I think it was Freud or something. Who invented the two, didn't he? We've taken a belief in it. And everything becomes relative to that. And relativity or relationship, not just the male-female relationship, but any relationship is duality.

And what we're pointing to is non-duality. One without a second. So duality is a fiction. We don't realise. We're going back to Liam again. You say you are this body, mind, person. Investigate that. Are you the body? And you realise you're not the body. You already know that. Because don't just say my body. Don't just say my house, my car, my coat, my hat. Are you the coat? Are you the hat? Are you the shirt? Are you the house? You're not. Well, maybe you're not the body either. Well, have a look at it. What's this body made up of? And you realise this body's made up of elements.

Air, earth, fire, water, space. Just like the elements around you. Try and separate yourself from those elements. Stop breathing. See how long you'd last without the air. Take the water out of your body. Your body's 80% water. See how long you'd last without it. Take the body temperature, the fire out. It's saying get hyperthermia or die. Get off the earth if you can. Get out of space. You realise you're not separate from those elements at all. And all those elements can be broken down to subatomic particles and pure energy. All this body is, is a body. It's a body. It's a body. It's a body.

It's a body. It's a body. It's a body. It's a body. It's a body. It's a body. It's a body. It's a body. It's a body. It's a body. It's a body. It's a body. It's a body. See now, you've got the soul you've got the true power really and so are you. And here we go again. You've got the heart, the beta, the energy. What do you call that? Is your suppressor the center? Your more creeping largest body? If you want to think religions like those. You don't just say you think religions but you're thinking religions, particularly for the little things you can be.

And your food thin together. Me? This is a vibrating pattern of energy. Just the same as the rest of them in it, what about this thing called mind? You say, my mind, who, show me a thing called the mind if you can. What do you call mind? There is no such thing as mind apart from thought. thought and if you were this thing called mind which particular thought would you be you don't realize the thought of the belief that i am you learn that word i am with the word you learn and you're taking that to be what you are but you can't do much with i am can you and what we've done to it we've got a new household the australian the good fellow or not so good i've had a bad childhood or i'm introverted or i'm extroverted people don't like me and i'm fearful and anxious we had all these things that i am to give it some substance and an independent nature that me is the cause of all your psychological suffering there's only one that can be unhappy only me that can be fearful and the only community to be anxious or petty or compassion or whatever it is me is the cause of all my psychological suffering the anxiety the stress and the fear are the effects of that cause now isn't that what so-called karma is cause and effect but what happens if i ask myself a simple question relating to a cause can there be an effect without a cause we don't have to re-arrange the scholars to work that out you're not related to cause there can't be an effect get rid of all the psychological suffering and karma when they recognize that but there's no separation in the process we all it's got to exist we can no longer give back to sin for a cause to live through there's no one edged stick it sticks got two inns got a good in and a baby but it's the same with all those things we like one part of it and not the other and he smitters it's all the one the same thing but they're so-called good and bad you know you take it as it is instead of trying to alter it modify it we don't like the bad we want a nice kick we like a little better than the bad time and another knife for helping in counter faktiskt or even like high pressure and a few inches on it so it does give you all that backfire and we always try to make it Excellent I want the good all the time.

And it doesn't happen. I just can't. It won't. The answer's in the mind. And you've been searching in the mind all these years, probably for years. Something might be just recently. I don't know. It's a long time. You've done all sorts of things. And you haven't worked it out in the mind. It might have just dawned on you. Or maybe the answer's not in the mind. I've been so long. I've never found the answer. I've meditated. I've read these books. I've gone to this, that, that. I've worshipped this guru. And whatever it is, I've never found the answer. Looking in the mind all these times, I've never found the answer.

Maybe I've been looking in the wrong direction. What way is there out of the mind? You realise that every way I've looked and all I've looked is always in the mind. The only way out of the mind is full stop. Period. Don't go there. Yourself lives. What is wrong with right now, if I don't think about it, I'll try and look at it. You've got to see what's there without a thought. And have you disappeared without the thought? You gladly give up the thought every night when you go to sleep. Just dawn on you. And that's what it's like. And sometimes it can be sudden, but sometimes it can be just like a dawning, like the sun rising over, coming up over the horizon or the earth rolling away from it, whatever it is.

And that dawning, that's what we need to do, investigate and see. And they tell you that the answer was not in the mind. They'll tell you you'll never ever get peace of mind. We look for peace. You'll never get peace of mind. And they say the peace is when the mind is not. That's why they call it the peace that passes all understanding. It can't be understood a grasp of the concept or a thought. When there's no thought, there is a natural sense of being well, well-being, a natural sense of compassion, of joyousness, of cognizing emptiness, as the Buddha told you a couple of thousand years ago.

He called it a cognizing emptiness. And we think we are cognizing the emptiness. But it's not. It is the emptiness itself that has that capacity. It's a fusion of that intelligence that has the capacity of cognizing. And he made the statement then that emptiness is form. Now that all this manifestation, shapes and forms, that's all they are. There's emptiness. Emptiness is form. And the form can, but nothing other than the emptiness. No. All you people in this room and everything else that's in it and outside it are emptiness. Vibrating into pattern and shapes. It's form. And that emptiness is infused with that intelligence energy. I don't use the term God here because you can get confused with that term.

Purely and simply all come from different traditions. Some of you might be agnostic. Some of you might be atheist. Some of you might be Christian. Some of you might be Hindu. Some of you might be Muslim. Some of you might be Buddhist. Some of you might be Jews. Or whatever. Start talking about God. You're merely related to what your traditional belief is. And so miss out on what we point to. I use the term intelligence energy and you've got to understand that's just a label tool. So that's not it. But I think it points to it much clearer. The intelligence is knowing. Another word for it.

Anybody who's not knowing right now? No, I'm not. An energy, the knowing, the I-energy on it gives us something, an activity, a movement. That's why I call it intelligence energy. The activity of knowing. The activity of being. The activity of seeing. All vibrating patterns of energy. What you are. You are that life essence. Not the body or not the mind. It's the entity which has been formed to express this and realise it and recognise it. We've taken it. There's an entity there. A me. Because when we learn words, one of the words we learn, they tell you, in all the scriptures, there's only one self.

One atman. One self. And as soon as we take the belief that we are this person, it's my self. My self. We think we are this self. We're not. That's what we need to look at and investigate and pull it apart. Because the false start can't stand up to investigation. How does it work? How do you pull it apart? How do you investigate? Look at it. Everybody is seeing right now and everybody is hearing right now. Isn't it a fact? When you open your eyes this morning and you say, now I'm going to start seeing. No, the seeing was there immediately. And the same with the hearing.

You look at this one, you say, now I'm going to start hearing. No, the hearing is there. There's a seeing. Well, ask yourself this. Does my eye tell me I see? Well, my eye's not saying, look at this bump. That's good or that's bad. This is... My eye can't say anything at the moment. Can yours? Yeah. Investigate. But it is the instrument through which the seeing is happening. And it's translated by the thought, I see. Now that thought, I see, is no longer a pure seeing. But what we've added to it, made Bob and the Australians with all his problems and all his troubles now think it has the capacity of seeing.

Same with the hearing. Why is it not saying, listen, this is Bob, that's a big chair, and that's a lot of rubbish, and that's a lot of crap. He's full of crap. Here you can't say anything at all, but it is the instrument again through which the hearing's happening. And it's translated by the thought a little bit further. Thought, I see, actually see. Your eyes, and look around the room, and see for yourself what you can see with the eyes closed in this room with a thought. You can't see anything at all. You can picture him seeing with your eyes closed, and you can't see anything at all.

Put your hands up. Put your hands over your ears, and shut this down enough, and see what you can hear. But look, the thought, I hear. So the thought, I see, cannot see. This ego, I see, can't see. The thought, I hear, can't hear. Are you unaware right now? No. The thought, I am aware, is not your awareness. The awareness is there when you're saying it or not. And the other one, the big one, the thought, I choose, we think we choose our thoughts. Why the hell would you have an unhappy, miserable, or angry, or fearful thought if you could choose them? Anyone choose to be that way?

You don't. So you see, there's an egoic concept you have with yourself. The ego can't see, can't hear, can't be aware, can't choose, can't do anything at all. The tasting, touching, smelling, the ing on it is going on all the time. And look at that. Thinking is happening. What's your next thought going to be? You can't tell me, can you? Because you don't know what it's going to be. And the thought comes up, I think. This conceptual image in my mind. I think that I'm thinking this thought. So what have you done? You've formed a subject with the thought, I think. Now I'm thinking this thought has become the object.

So thinking, which is the actual function, has been divided into subject, object. But investigate that. Can there be a thinker without thinking? Can there be a subject, I think, without thinking? There can't be. Can there be the thought, I think, conceptually, the same as the seeing? The thought, I see, comes up. A subject, me, Bob, thinks it's me. I see the chair, I see the table. That becomes the object. But can there be a seer without seeing? There'll be the seeing. There'll be the tasting. The taste. Without the taster. Can there be the tasting without tasting? So the I and G, the seeing, the hearing, the tasting, touching, smelling, thinking, concepts.

The thinking, the seeing, they're the actuality. But it's all divided into subject. Subject is a total fiction. The actuality is always the seeing, the hearing, the tasting, touching, smelling. Not I see, I think, I hear. Or I touch, or I feel. Not the me that's doing anything. It's a conceptual image we have. It's a conceptual image that we believe is me. Can't do anything at all. Another way of looking at it, take that life essence out of the body. What have you got? You've got a corpse. Now that corpse, before it starts to rot, it's got eyes, it's got ears, it's got heart, lung, kidneys, throat, all the organs there.

But what good are they to it without the life essence? So use those keys and run those mouths over it as much as you like. The eyes not turned on. What good is it to you? So what must you be? Are you the conceptual image you've got about yourself? Are you the life essence of self? And the truth? Why, in the life, it's that sense of presence that translates through the mind as the thought I am. It's the way. The sense of presence. They were the sense of presence. People thought he was talking about himself. He wasn't. He was talking about that sense of presence.

That's the way. That's the way. And everyone can say I am. They believe that I am to be the personal self, my self, but that's not. And that's what you're asked to look at, investigate and see for yourself. Not any questions or any doubts or any arguments around it. Bring it up. Tell us how you're going with it. Everybody's had a taste of it throughout your life. But we keep coming back. People come here and say, and I say, oh yeah, I saw through it in me. But a couple of days later it came back. Well, how the hell did it come back? Well, it's all something that doesn't exist come back.

That's why it needs to be recognized. Recognized. They call it cognizing emptiness. Emptiness is form and form is emptiness. So to recognize it, see it again. The scripture is saying that be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind. What's that mean? Just reminding yourself. Drop the old habits and remind yourself that you are already that essence. That'll bring about the transformation that's necessary. If you do sit down and relax naturally, but try to become something. Becoming, being will never be becoming. Being is the immediacy of this now. Becoming implies a future time. When you look into the concept of time, you'll see that's a fiction.

You ask yourself, is there a past if I don't think about it? You can't say there's a past or a future without a thought. But you'll say, I was in the past. I'll say, okay. Go back and try and live yesterday. Try and live the moment ago, the last week. You can't live, you can recall it. But you can recall it. And the only actuality of giving it is when you're recalling it right now, in this immediacy. The same in the future. You can't live a moment in the future. You can anticipate and imagine the future. But you can't live a moment in the future.

And when are you anticipating and imagining it? Only in this immediacy. So people tell you, you've got to try and stay in the now. I'll say, try and get out of it. And when you look at it, you've never been away from this immediacy. That's what needs to happen. A bit of investigation. See for yourself. Nobody's ever going to do it for you. And as I say, you have taste, but so, away you go. That's the part when we all talk. It is so blimingly obvious, and yet, somehow... Somehow. The conditioning belief comes up. But if you ask yourself, what conditioning is there right now if I don't think about it?

We could pull the story about it. Make the story to be real. And the doubts come back. Like the doubt comes, oh yeah, I've seen it, but I don't see it now. What is it really? It's just another thought pattern that is saying, oh, I don't see it anymore, or I'm not that yet. Or maybe I was deluding myself. Or any sort of doubt, any form it takes. It's just another thought. If it was spoken in another language, you wouldn't be bothered. But you think it's your thought, and you think it says the truth because it sits in your head. It doesn't really. It doesn't say the truth, and it doesn't sit in your head.

So if you address every thought, that question, your true nature, which is always there under the thought. Yeah. Yeah. We need a little machine that translates all thoughts into Russian. Russian here, Russian there. Russian into the future. Don't encourage him. Yeah. That future or past can only exist as a thought. Yes. It's a simple statement, but it's just very, I don't know, profound as well. Yeah, it's extremely profound when you really see the truth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The full depth of it. Help recognized... Help recognizable, take a look at nature.

That's what they call the natural state, looking for it, as in nature. This out there around the sunlight now. Tides are coming you now. Seasons are coming and going. Tsunamis, hikes, everything forming out there. Is there anything on this thing? Are you? No. No action on that. No action on that. No action on that. big daddy in the sky doing all that, or is that just a natural intelligence? It's probably running in a rally or in all ways. The mind is just a storehouse of blah blah blah of belief and everything else from the past and the future. I sometimes in my Sedona stuff when I'm not doing coaching with somebody or whatever, but what you had just mentioned about knowing that no matter what's in front, the truth of who we are is sometimes in the back and always it will be like when they talk about the screen of awareness, on which anything goes on top of it, but can never harm the truth of who we are.

Sometimes I use and you can get these online, but I got this on Amazon, but these are those 3D postcards. And no matter what is in front of here, when you surrender and relax your mind, there is something behind it. And the conditioned mind may say, Oh no no no, I only see this. I only see this on the screen. But behind it is that other image of which we are, which is that screen of awareness, on which all this other play, as Shakespeare and others talk about, goes on. Yeah, and once you know that, it's like in magic, I call it sometimes, the mind is like a trap.

It's a tragic thing. The mind loves to do slight mind. It loves to go, no, this is how it is and whatever. But when you actually know that in real magic, they're tricks, you have to sign in a non-disclosure for all these magicians that are out there because it's not real. And so when you finally see a trick done by one of these great magicians and all of a sudden you realize, no matter what they do, no matter what they say, it's not true. It helps you to understand the stories of the mind a little better and know that, sorry, that's not the truth of who I am.

So it helps. And only then, when you actually see the magician doing the tricks and you understand the tricks, only then you can fully appreciate the brilliance of the trick. Exactly. Because otherwise, if you get fooled, yeah, okay, that's the reality. You don't really see the full beauty. You don't see that, you don't enjoy it as it could be enjoyed. The way the dream is recognized and it's still so convincing and it's so juicy and it's so deep and it's so multidimensional and it's still a dream. And how wonderful is that? Only then you completely fall in love with your own true nature because it's that your true nature vibrating into that forms and shapes and patterns.

And it's almost like a movie. I think, I can't remember where it was, but somebody mentioned that, they spent millions of dollars with, remember Golub, the character in Lord of the Rings? They spent millions of dollars to make sure that the hair moved away so that you would see almost as if he was a character and you started to believe it. As you just said, the performance has to be so great for you to, because if anything were to go, that's not real. And you'd lose the story. That's right. Yeah. It's interesting. And that's interesting because actually what Mark is doing here is, he is managing the show Legends in Concept and the show we've seen it yesterday.

And it is so well done that I could say the fakes are better than the real artists. That's when you appreciate it fully. That's when you see the full glam of the performance. Yeah. And the interesting thing is when people first see that it's a tribute artist, you know, the critical mind, the conditioned mind will go, yeah, that's not Elvis or that's not, you know, Eldon John. But all of a sudden, it moves from the mind and you never mind it. That's one of the things that they never mind that mind. And you move into the heart where the music is and vibrationally. And all of a sudden, you don't think about it anymore.

Because you don't think about it. So you're there with the performance and you're enjoying it. And there's joy in there. Absolutely. Yeah. There's 700 people just laughing and jumping and really being in a state of being a child again. Yeah. And when they did the village people that I've done the show for a while, it's one of the most high energy and joyful, fun performances that I've seen in the years I've been doing it. Because really, when it comes to it, we're still in human form. But one of the needs we need is fun. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Because the mind will go into a serious state where it will, in an immediate way, can take you from a high, think about something for a while, it'll take you down and torture you down into something a lot less.

So where's this happening? Oh, at the Crown. At the Palms of Crown through the 26th. What's it called? Legends in Concert. One time when I said to Kat and Bob, you know, there are a bunch of fakes over there but they keep me real, which was the joke. But then Kat and Bob go, we're all fakes. Yeah. So yeah, it was cool. Yeah. It was fun. Yeah, it's like Bob started quoting Nisargadatta, we are dreaming the dream and we call it life. We are pretending to be sure. We are pretending to be human actors in that scenery. So then he said, dream is not your problem.

The problem is that you like one part and not the other. It's like really knowing that it is a dream, the seriousness goes, the sting goes out of it, the suffering. It just becomes, you know, like if we read the good book or we watch the good movie, there have to be day and night pleasure, pain, good characters, bad characters, all of it has to be there, sweet and bitter, and sadness and joy. But it isn't that overwhelming anymore because it is just what it is. Yeah. I think, but it's still occurring, right? I think the thing with me that I have trouble with, and forgive me for being potentially contrarian, but it's not being that we're talking about, it's being aware of being.

And there's a, so I'm a space that, all things seemingly register within. And it seems like there's, it seems like duality. Yeah. It seems like there's the relative happening within an all encompassing space. And so there is, there is two. There's two eyes. There's a small eye and a big eye it seems. And the, so the non-duality throws me, throws me into the non-duality. And I think that's the reason, because I feel like it. Wonderful question. We love questions like this. Yeah. Yeah. Go for it Bob. Well, not even one eye, it's a word, you see. Yeah. You see, if you're not translating it into words, it's an all appearance, see?

A whole manifestation, yeah. There's appearance that appears to be so. Seemingly so, but it's not so. It's just the one essence vibrating, pattern, shaping, and then it's just a matter of what it is. So it's all different patterns, shaping, forming, and appearing, expressing as everything. All different pattern, shapes, and forms. But it's still only the one energy that's vibrating and expressing through. Yeah. And it's an amazing energy the way it patterns. Well, do that cat, with all the stripes and things on it with different colours. Could anybody paint that? Do it, to that extent. Yeah. But nature knows what to do. A child, a little baby, you and me, and all the organs and nerves and everything in it, and everything, is there somebody else apart from one intelligence doing it?

Can you separate one iota from any of it? Nothing separate at all. It's all the totality appearing. I think the only thing that I, and here's my mind working, obviously, here's the doubt, the only thing I get concerned about is negating, the relative, negating the world of form, when it is also so beautiful. Does that make sense? So, there's this tendency for us to zoom out and to sort of be that all-encompassing I. But I suppose I worry about the world of, the relative world is, like the world of multiplicity is there. Yeah. And it is lovely. And it is, um, it's, I don't know, it's, I think I get concerned about negating the variety and colour of this experience we call existence.

It's not a matter of negating anything. Okay. You're saying, as I say, there's no one-ended stick. Each stick's got two ends of it. Yeah. So, there's no, all this thing is the one, but two, it seemingly divides into good and bad, but it's not, it's still one end, one thing. Yeah. Expressing it either way. Yeah. How could you differentiate it? Well, it wasn't good. Could you say there was anything bad? It wasn't bad. Could you say there was anything good? It just is. It just is. Yeah, it just is. It all is. And it all is as one essence. That thing's made me fall into the expression of everything.

Yeah. And what are you? You are the essence of self. I, I am the essence aware of this, there is, so if I'm. Of all the thoughts and the way they vibrate and going on in it, yeah, that essence. Yes. And I'm the essence. I'm the essence. I'm the essence. I'm the essence. I'm the essence. I'm the essence. I'm the essence. I'm the essence. I'm the essence. I'm the essence. All of it. You are. I am, I am that that's aware of me, it would seem. All of it? You are. You are. I, I am that that is aware of what you calling this buzzing in my body, this current.

I am that that's aware of that. But the buzzing too. Yeah, and that's what I mean by duality. No. That's what it, that's. Awareness is not separated from the buzzing. No. That's what it is. No. Yeah. That's what... So, I see it. I see it. Yeah. You are aware of what you are and then you are aware of what you are not. Yeah. And, are you aware of what I'm doing? that's what it is awareness is not separated from the buzzing if you remove the buzzing there's no awareness if you remove awareness there's no buzzing the one only in the language only in the language that's what bob was explaining before that everything is one is just one seeing happening one breathing happening one heartbeat happening and then the mind comes and say this is I seeing you so now we have three three three things the seeing the space of gaze and the eye here and the you there but if we take the eye there's no you and there's no seeing when you take the you there's no me and the seeing if we take the seeing away nothing happens so they are not separate they are inseparable they're just one thing same as emptiness and form because that was a brilliant question when you say sorry this is interesting yeah emptiness and form because it's it's so it's like it's such a paradox it feels like there is two or we could say that there is a space or awareness and the content of space and awareness and bob summarizes it in that beautiful one-liner one essence appearing shaping forming into everything we can't say that nothing is one thing and there's something is another thing because nothing is not a thing and it's still in the language when when we point it you can't avoid duality in point of view and it's still in the language when we point it you can't avoid duality in point of view and it's still in the language when we point it you can't avoid duality in point of view because language there is no words that doesn't have the opposite every word has the opposite even if we say okay this is just one stillness and vibration in the stillness the same stillness vibrates into movement so it is one still vibrating you still have two states of the one and this is because of the language because we can't really express it that's why they say the mind can't grasp it the understanding is completely when the mind is not and when the mind is not when there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no understanding there is no one home there is no question of zooming out and negating or zooming in and getting entangled or seeing duality only the mind divides it there is emptiness and then there is form there is nothing and there is a thing but nothing is it's not a thing it's not something that the mind makes it to an object that emptiness is an object but emptiness is not an object and it's not a thing the m is mind doesn't have description that would be appropriate for that what we say that everything else the nature of the appearance is also nothing that they are not they don't have any separate existence they're completely interdependent so there is the nothing is there is just that one nothing appearing as many other things but yeah a good illustration is like the ocean ever changing but never changed waves and marmots and god knows what but it's still only the ocean yeah the sea makes it changes but never changes yeah i suppose i'm like i'm dense like it's almost like i'm a clump of energy it's so the ocean's hard for me because the ocean's all the same thing you know the waves are it isn't it's not denser in one place than it is in another yeah and so when i when i the only conception of reality is that energy clumps and also is dispersed in in some places and and less in others yes like the tides in the ocean and the problem is only when we start to put it in words and we start analyze it and think about it because if you don't if you even perceive or experience yourself as the energy and the energy is contracted and sometimes not contracted that is still conceptualizing because if you stay in the moment and you take the concepts away that's just what it is moment to moment what is and if there is no comparison that oh yeah now the energy is more loose or more contracted than a moment ago that's already computing that's already mind and it's nothing wrong the mind is wonderful instrument and let it compute forever just don't really take much that take it very seriously because this is what the mind is saying it's not going to be ultimate truth it's just going to be relative sort of a bubbling rumbling blah blah blah and and that's okay let it be i mean the commentary it is going to be there or not well sometimes it is sometimes it isn't but it's it is the belief and again it seems like too the energy of belief no it's just the same life it's the same life that when when there is an investment in the thinking the belief in the thinking taking it seriously that's when it starts getting problematic when we think oh yeah look but can you can you not see this is this is not how it this is not this is the right this is all thinking when the thinking stops or it's just pushed aside for a moment all those problems disappear and it's just as it is and that just as it is moment to moment that's the natural state and thinking shows up on top and let it be there let it sing the song or comment on the traffic or do whatever it does but it's just an automatic function the same way the hearing is automatic function we think oh this is my thinking no the hearing is completely interdependent on everything else and so is thinking and so is digestion everything else it is part of functioning is not my the thoughts that come and comment and the doubts that come and comment they're not mine they're just like sweating of the skin or salivating of the mouth or growing the hair just let it be but the moment the belief goes into it they become serious language fails us exactly yeah the energy of belief is good situation makes it seemingly real but it's mark was saying before about something he said never mind well if you never mind or i don't mind you know people don't know can i do this and do that and say i don't mind you don't make any problem when you do and then a little bit further it doesn't matter and only able to consolidate or come back into seemingly solidified the matter spirit matter you see that divided them spirit possesses matter is a consolidated form of spirits and they're one and the same thing two different aspects just like steam water and ice or whatever you know your mind of the matter i don't mind it doesn't matter these conceptual images and the belief we put into them make them sit in their room it's really just as you said that is the language that fails us and the moment to moment recognition of not really falling for that trap of language that's it and the recognition it comes from the quiet mind it comes from the consciousness so just as because you seem to have really good recognition of all that already you're asking questions from the top shelf so i'm sure you're pretty familiar with that state of no mind where there is nothing really standing in the way yeah the only thing i stand in the way is that if i am very still it seems like all there is is matter the material is the only is all that matters is the matter but then the mind comes in and goes but there's something immaterial that is aware of the matter and so i've got immateriality and materiality yeah i see the paradox but it's very simple yeah you wanted to add something bob i wouldn't has the awareness changed at all has that become aware of something that wasn't aware of before any time that you are actually unaware i would say most of the time i would say most of the time i'm asleep uh that's the belief most of the time i walk a lot and a lot of the time i i don't know it's like when you're driving even you know you don't know where you may be you may be you may be unaware of something but are you really unconscious are you really like did you see a dead body or unconscious body someone in a coma i've never been unconscious so i don't know but it there's a distinct difference in my experience of life between achieving some stillness of mind and and clouds being caught up in just the world yeah and being caught up in the world does feel like a coma of sorts.

What is true though, what Bob said, well, it's like the mind, you're always in the present moment, you can't get out of it. People, there are workshops on, there are books saying how to get into the present moment. You can't get out of it, you're always in the present moment. That doesn't exclude that the mind can take you on donut runs, as they call them, to the past or the future, to other things of thought. And you're right, when you drive sometimes, you realize you've gone five miles and there's the sign to get off, but the mind might be thinking of other things. That's just the nature of that thought that comes in and out.

One of the things I've learned is practicing presence as you go on a journey, you can't just go somewhere, but the mind love to get you. It's just the nature of it, because without, the mind doesn't have a place in the present moment. If I never had another thought in that aspect, I'd move because I'm not the doer, I'd see, because I'm not the seer, and life would live me. I'd be done, so to speak, by that intelligence awareness. So. I know that I feel like I need blinders like a horse. Because I, yeah. I mean, constantly am. Distracted from the attention of the present moment.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've heard someone say that we assume we're not aware when we're sleeping, but that's not strictly true. We can't really confirm that. We just don't remember. And the functioning was still going on. You're breathing, your heart was waiting here and fingernails growing, food was being digested, cells being replaced. Thought had just, and the brain's out of the road. And so the thought, feeling, and emotion, it wasn't the same thing. Yeah, I know. Different aspects, like steam, water, and ice. The different aspects of H2O. And I'm sorry to do this, but it's, you know, you know, I'm sure what the adage is. It's something about if a tree fell in the forest, and if you weren't there to see it, did it happen?

Yeah. I feel like this a lot. Like, if my, you say my fingernails are growing and I'm sweating, but if I'm not aware of it, it's basically like it hasn't happened. It's just like if I'm looking over here and somebody's walked here. Yes, they've walked there, but they haven't been in my field of awareness. So it's like they might as well have not walked there. Whether they did or didn't walk, it's, and so it's, there's, There is a relationship going, relative to. It needs to happen within this space of sensation in order for it to be true, it would seem. It's a manifestation, it's transient, it's constantly changing.

You haven't got the same body you walked into this room with. There are thousands of cells going in it right now, not one or two, but hundreds of thousands, and being replaced. You're not aware of that, you don't even look at it. You don't know that it's changing until you look back five years ago or a couple of months ago, and you see the change, and it's changing right now. Why does that matter? It doesn't. It doesn't. It's just an illustration. Okay. Yeah. Because we habitually relate to, you know, we're not aware of it. Yeah. Yeah. It's not everything to the me. So if I see it, it exists.

If I don't see it, or if I believe it, you know, if I believe in God or angels, they exist. If I don't believe, they don't exist. Even if I believe I have a cancer and I believe in a cure, I may cure myself, that sort of relationship goes on. But from this perspective of consciousness or space, it doesn't really matter what the individual believes. It doesn't matter what the individual bubble, you know, the personalized world contains. Yeah. It still is in constant movement, dance, change, whether you know it or you don't know it. It's not that knowing, but I see a question, and that's an important and a beautiful way Bob is answering that, you know, the awareness of being.

Sometimes the awareness of being is obscured by imagination. Sure. Constantly in the head, imagining this, that, or the other future past, and Bob compares it to the clear sky, when the clarity is there, or the clouds, where there is almost, one could say, now there is no sun. I can't see it. It's just so far away. The radiance of being is completely obscured by the clouds. But it doesn't mean it disappeared. It is still there. Yeah, but it's not. Well, not for the person. Yeah. Not for the individual. But if you see that individual is just a narrative, that narrative started when you learned the language.

Before you had enough words, there was no reasoning capacity, there was no narrative. But then the narrative started two, two and a half, three, year old, and as you go further, you learn more words, you have more commentary, and learn the language is constant repetition. So suddenly that narrative started accompanying you all the time. So it felt like that's my voice. That's my inner, utmost inner self, that voice in the head that comments. But it is not. It's the commentary. It's just another capacity, another, it's a default mode network, some network in the brain that does it. It's not you. So if that narrative tells you, oh, there is a difference between form and emptiness, or I'm not seeing the sun right now, or it's clouded, or I'm gone in the mind, this is just a talking going on.

The awareness, the realization or the recognition is stepping back from that madness and seeing that madness without changing it, altering, modifying, quieting down, taming, let the mind do whatever it wants. Let it go crazy. You are not the mind. This is the recognition. But the mind can't get it. The mind is already there in the madness, in the content. The recognition is basically this identifying, or is the consciousness that suddenly looks from beyond, not from within the theater, but from beyond. So, and then whatever the mind does, doesn't really matter. And it's not fed anymore with attention. So the individual, the me can't do anything, but the potential of recognition exists moment to moment.

And sometimes being reminded, like having the pointers, like Bob is throwing pointers, it kind of anchors that recognition because it quietens the mind. The only message for the mind is just, yeah, don't try. Don't try and seek. Don't try to resolve it. Don't try to understand it. Surrender. Yeah, yeah, surrender or just do nothing. Just because you are nothing. You're just a bundle of commentary. It's just a habitual. It's just a mode of operation, which one could say faulty, but it's not faulty. If not for that, we probably wouldn't have the civilization like we do. For whatever reason, life expresses this way. So, and another aspect is if it didn't express this way, if it didn't identify with that limited form, the awakening wouldn't be on the menu.

This is the paradox. It is the paradox. This is why I put cordial, this is the side, yeah. Yeah. Because it's like, yeah, sorry. No, no. It's interesting. When Bob was talking about at age two and stuff, a child starts to get all these things, but a little later, the child's mind starts to ask one question that is consistently spinning around, and it's the question, why? Yes. Like, hey, well, I'm going to go here. Why? Well, because you're going to, but why? And I want to, but why? This is also a very powerful thing, though. It's the endless, but it's the endless. It's the endless loop of wanting to know, but eventually it takes on the conditioning of the mind that wants to know an answer, but the answer will never be found in that conditioned mind.

Yeah. And that's the thing. So I've gotten to the point where if something comes up, I just go, so what? I know, but then, but where do you, but your mind is a gift, and it's a beautiful tool. It is. It's so powerful. And it's hard not to, you don't want to demonize. No. It's like my friends who are Greek Orthodox. Yeah. And they're like, oh, I'm going to do this. Yeah. And they have priests in their family. And generally, the Orthodox community seem to be quite anti-intellectual, because it's all about their stillness prayer, their prayer of the heart. Wow. I didn't know that. But it's, but there is this, I'm a thinker.

I'm curious. I want to know things. I think a child asking why shouldn't be, this is beautiful. No, it's not negative in that, but that's how they, they are curious about life in a joyful way. Yeah. They're not suffering. Later on, that same mind to somebody who doesn't retain that wonderment and joy of what's that, and what's that, it wants to know an answer to be safe, to be okay, and to not suffer. And avoid feeling. And that's a different thing. Children are in joy with why. Yeah. You know, why? And it's totally later of, how do I know that? What can I do to, you know, to get rid of this worry or this concern?

Totally different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the, that's the thing. When the why's, the how's, what for, when come up, that's, instead of full stopping and seeing it as it is, we're looking for the answer in the mind. We think that it might open up an answer somewhere in our mind. Right? It's like this message, it's, it's not talking to anybody. It's not talking to any mind, is it? That's right. It's talking to that awareness, that spaciousness, and stirring that so it can start to sort of see through what you're not and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, you're not and that's the key point see through of what you're not yes they're beautiful consciousness does exist in different places and they are and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and but pure mind pure mind yeah which is they call no mind because there's no concept going on right which is the narrow mind yeah yes yes so when you see actually the effects that the mind has that is when the same what Mark was saying earlier about the seeing through the magician's trick make you appreciate the magic even more because it's so convincing the same happens the same happens with the mind mind is beautiful the capacity of imagination the capacity for art the capacity for for creating the whole world the stories every single story every moment is so potent with the stories this is gorgeous but when it binds you when it takes you for the ride when it takes you for the trip for self-pity and inferiority and that inner void that that makes you want to add and fix it and and therapy make therapy on yourself you're not good enough that's that's where you know it doesn't have to be this way it's like a tail wagging the dog yeah yes you can love the mind without having the the negative side effects yeah but there couldn't be any mind or anything at all that life isn't right patting through this room with all the nerves and scenarios and brain and all that they're not a bit of good on their own without life life is a pure intelligence energy whatever you like to call it it's really helpful when you always bring it back to that for me bob because i can somehow mostly get kind of lost in thinking about what you've said and comparing it to what you know you've said and then when you just bring it back to none of it would exist without the life force it just catapults me right back into what's happening right now relatedly it just seems what happens in dreams is that one's looking at well in sleep one's looking at the dream which is of objects then you drop into deep sleep and i think in deep sleep you've got awareness but it's it's the awareness of no thing there's no object it's nothingness actually it's a sleep shift to oscillate between somethingness and nothingness and spanned by awareness in both cases from that wonderful Zen book that you have where it said, I've been showing on this for days now that emptiness is not non-existence yes yeah and they often say and this is another paradox but it's a helpful paradox that there is the universe neither exists nor not exist it's not one or the other just like Bob is often showing the reflections in the mirror they're there but try and go and grab one they're not there so trying to solve the paradox that it is one way or the other is again coming back to the language to duality, to the mind and that's where the answer is not that's the one thing that is certain the answer is when the mind is not because mind is a vibration so vibration cannot grasp the stillness because obvious reason like the sound can't grasp the silence it is yeah I think that's the beautiful thing about paradox or contradiction is that everything comes to collapse exactly yes, I love that very crazy monk you know, iconoclastic Zen yes you know, where it's all you know, you have to show the black and the white and then smash them together and realize that there's no black or white that's right and it's also what happens at the crown at the end of the show this could collapse oh not like this not like this yeah and when you say, Andre when you say you are a thinker you love to think see, that's what actually got Bob on the path he is a thinker he's an intellectual and so am I and so it's probably half if not all of the group because that's the attraction of the pointing the pointers are so to be used by the mind because they defy the logic they actually the way he's presenting you know, look you can't be the body body is just responding and reacting environment is made of elements that can't be separated and so on and so forth for those type of personality pattern often the case is that you do have to wear the mind down you do have to get all your whys out yeah and you have to get them together yeah and you have to get all of them together I'm not saying that I'm immediately defeated and when the mind is completely tired and it's completely cornered by many many many ways that's when it surrenders I relate to this a lot it's just like going through and beyond yes you can't defer mhm a lot of us, I think we're trying to defer yeah we're trying, yeah to move away from mhm but it's almost like you need to go through and beyond yes I even notice this with materialism like, umm spiritualism spiritualism the more you realize that things don't make you full you can only realize this by by acquiring them yes and only by acquiring them and going oh shit this is done this doesn't make me any more complete beautiful only through that process it would seem can you start to let them go yes you have to go through and beyond it's fascinating the millionaire school of enlightenment not everyone has to go this way yeah they are people because yeah i've seen some state statements from the famous actors or whoever it was the people who were who were popular and were loved who had everything that they were grateful for having it because they know that the truth and the happiness and the joy doesn't lie there so they can actually just step go further but there's a lot of other patterns you know every single pattern of personality is uniquely different so we may need to go this way somebody else might just go through the whatever bhakti path surrender of the heart or yeah or relinquishing or asceticism who knows it's life playing out it's really having fun through every single pattern it's having a right and whether the right will be accomplished or not how does it matter life is accomplished already so it doesn't even matter if that realization that clouds get dispersed or not in some bodies do it's some bodies they don't and it doesn't make a difference for life and we are the life so that's that's how fair and uncompromising it is and that's why there is no prescription there is no path that oh if you follow if you do 10 plus thousand hours of meditation you will arrive becomes dogma no yeah exactly and there's no you to arrive and it doesn't matter what the you is doing it may do whatever it wants doesn't matter what the dream character does in their dream the dream character is not gonna wake up the consciousness the one that lies between the light and the darkness empire and there's just not the in the bed wakes up but then when this dream character comes into the play again it's not this that wakes up it's the consciousness it's the further away the life that wakes up so whatever the pattern is doing in the dream or in this dream let it do what it is drawn to do like mark is producing wonderful music wonderful show for people other people are painting or helping other whatever or stealing or the interesting thing too about the mind is uh i can't remember it was hail in the sedona method retreat once that we were at that you know the sedona method and releasing and all those things are really helpful because the goal of all this stuff basically is to end the suffering that's created and to end the suffering that's created and to end the suffering that's created and to by the stories of the mind.

In this play that we are all in, it would be nice to be a travel lighter, as they say, and not suffer. So whatever works, Hale talked about giving the mind a bone to chew on, because if not, it'll chew up our lives, that conditioned mind, and the stuff that torches, that makes us worry, that makes us concerned, that makes us suffer. They even say in one teaching in James Allen, all suffering comes in thought in the wrong direction. I'm more the thing of, take my thoughts, please, like Henny Youngman. Take my wife, please. Because really, thoughts will create a story from the conditioned mind that has the potential to cause suffering.

I'd rather live a much freer and joyful life in whatever way, even though I don't, you know, I would rather live a much freer and joyful life than live a much freer and joyful life. I will never know what the Tao is, because you can't know the Tao. So I just want to enjoy whatever this play is, and be in a comedy, musical, or romance, than Long Day's Journey into Night, or Death of a Salesman, if this is all a play. Beautiful. We have a comment from someone who is watching us, Raymond. The voice in the head is a cause for all the suffering. Spot on.

Exactly right. Yeah, if there is no commentary in the head, there will be a pain, but no resistance. There is no resistance to the pain, which is suffering. Well, I think you can still get plenty of thoughts, and if I'm not buying that there's a me there, I'm buying that there's, I believe in the story, then the thoughts are okay. You're free. Yes, absolutely. And they're not mine, because there's no one there thinking them. Exactly, yeah. No ownership, yeah. That's the freedom. All the arguments that have gone on about the mind, if anyone shows me, I think all mine. Everyone shows you silence. Yeah. What about the idea of choosing a big problem?

You're not doing it, life does it. Investors will sit back rather. You can't choose it. You only take credit. Sounds like you can't do anything. You can't do anything. You just have to observe it. Yeah. So it feels like you are choosing the problem, and it feels like it is a problem that is going to, you know, keep your mind busy, and you're going to be better off, and so on. But it's only the feeling, and it's only the commentary, and it tells you that you are the chooser. In fact, life inspires you with that story, just like life inspires musicians to create the music.

But the musician says, no, I did it. I created it. That starts early childhood also, when the little boy or a little girl paints a little drawing and shows it to the mommy, and mommy knows, the child knows, the drawing just happened. The child doesn't know how it happened. The hands were playing on the paper, and the mommy says, oh, wonderful. You did it. You did it. And gives all the appreciation, all the approval to the child. So the child very, very quickly learns how to earn approval, how to earn quality attention, and it starts taking credit. And then everything it does later on, I did it.

I made a mistake, or I did the right thing, or I got the right choice, or a big problem. I choose it. But the life, it's like you don't know what's your next thought going to be. That same way, that big problem that you choose to occupy the mind, it comes out of nowhere, out of the source, which is everything. But then again, it's probably important not to get the mind in the way and go out looking for that big problem and then pushing to find one. It's probably better to sit back and just have the intention and wait for it to come. Yeah. Fair game.

I sure wish I was the chooser because I sure would choose a, and this is all illusion, I sure would choose a different illusion. Why? You know? That I would, based on what my thoughts would be. But this is what it is. I'm not the chooser, I'm not the doer, I'm not the thinker, I'm not the feeler, I'm not the seer. But the mind, this conditioned mind thinks I'm ruling all of this stuff. And, you know, you get to the point where you're finding no me instead of finding Nemo. We have another comment from Nazar Gazi. Isn't it the belief, in the belief that I am separate being, that cause the suffering?

Without the belief, who suffers? Yeah, it is. It's the same thing. The me, the I, is the narrative self. So whether there is a narrative or there is, yeah. Nazar Gazi says there's only life, nobody who lives on life. And life lives on life. Because out of life, more life comes continually. The food you eat was life once. The breath you take, you take life. And what? And what is the point of that? Yeah, I think that's what Bob is pointing. Instead of questioning the whole world and then the reality of everything else, or the emptiness of everything else, questioning the I, the wrong assumption, that there is a little human there in the belly or in the heart or in the head or somewhere, who does the decision making, the choosing, the narrative, that does the thinking, that does the seeing, that does the heartbeat, to actually see that there is no one there, that is just life functioning.

That's the relief. And that's the ultimate realization. That there is no one home. Let go. Yet, everything happens. So it doesn't happen to me. It just happens to itself. The life happens. And if that's not personal, that's not heavy. And it doesn't mean it's not going to be happy, sad, pleasant, painful and so on. It's just not going to be personal. Much ado about nothing, right? Yes. Where does this place agency? Where does this place somebody's, or the Christians would say, free will? You know, like, how do we say that atrocities that happened, you know, who are causing this? you know the holocaust exactly yeah whole world whole universe everything's interdependent yeah yeah no free will there's no free will okay yeah and that's freedom that's freedom yes just wanted you to repeat that yeah that's a great the comical joke is that in we think that salvation is through coming to get control of the decision making and it seems then that that's the most terrifying thing that you've got no control to the mind it's like that is hell that must be purgatory and yet that is the freedom but we make choices every day but the choices happen yeah if you don't choose your thoughts yeah yeah a great exercise because i'm aware of my mind and in that awareness nothing comes up and this is beautiful but i still don't it doesn't negate the fact that i make choices it appears this way you feel like it does it feel like you're digesting your food also that's that's a good analogy really because it feels can you see how the animals are making choices every day also you know the deer is being chased by the lion and it chooses to run away but can it choose not to run away now the question is can you choose not to do what you do if your whole personality pattern is created by collaboration of the entire universe every tiniest minutest detail of the universe all your past your conditioning your teachers your parents your society your culture your religion all of it created the the map of responding the way the body is responding so it is it really you choosing or is it a consequence of the collaboration of the whole world moment to moment you don't even know what your next choice is going to be it's going to spontaneously arise yeah just like the thought of feelings yeah .

spontaneously arises and it comes with the with the feeling I did it with taking credit feeling I think it's right I think you know so I was that I walk a lot and I'm walking and before I make a decision to turn around the street there's an inclination just before it yeah I'm inclined to turn left just before I decide that's exactly right yes so I see I see what you're saying I suppose and I'm not I'm 27 so I look at the world I'm concerned because I feel like we're talking about no mind or not thinking. And I think that none of us are thinking enough.

We're not thinking. That's exactly what we're... I come from the country. I come from Mildura. And there'd be a significant proportion of the population that they are only concerned with, you know, that one step ahead. There is no forecasting. There is no forethought. There is no how is this going to affect seven generations. There seems to be no thought. Yeah. It frustrates me. Yeah, every pattern is different. Some people are obsessing about future and they become constructors and they become builders and some other people don't. And they live like animal day to day. And this is all fine. This is all how life is. It's not that...

Anything. Anything should change. And if you are drawn to inspire people to think more, that's again life. Pouring that life through you. Making that inspiration. You can go and teach or you can... Yes, you're right. Probably if you go to imagination, you could very easily envision how the society could work better than now. How they could be more resourceful, less damaging to the planet or whatever. But that's still imagination. And that's creative tool from the mind, from the life essence. Using the mind. Using the mind. Using the mind. You can have a beautiful vision. You can be inspired to introduce it, to talk to people.

It will still be life doing. It's not you. It won't be your choice. And if the question, who did it, never arises, then who's there to chop down the tree? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And also this one, you can read it, you can Google it. It's a very well researched experiment done by Benjamin Libet. That he actually put the helmets full of electrodes. Some people's heads. And put them in front of the clock. And when they decided to lift the hand, they were supposed to remember which hand of the clock was showing which second. And he has proven, and it has been repeated in many, many universities, beyond any doubt, that the action thought or the action impulse come about half a second before the commentary.

So the commentary is the afterwards. So whatever you think, you've taken decision as you noticed. You say the impulse to get up or go this way or that way comes before the narrative. Yeah. So the narrative gives us illusion of free will. Illusion that my decisions, they're my choices. But that is well proven that is not the case. Thinking can happen, but there's no thinking. Didn't Christ tell you that? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit to his stature? Can do what with a cubit? Ah, this. I did. I did. I did. Gloria. An inch or something would add a measurement of mine.

Is that a Rubik's cubit? No. And then, yeah. What is it, what else is he saying? No thought for your life. What you shall eat, what you shall drink, what you shall wear. Yeah, your father knoweth you have need of these. But you hear about taking thought can add. Look at the birds in the field. They don't sow crops and then reap and gather them into barn. Yeah. With all these in the field. Yeah. Yeah. They don't even sow and they're always buried. Wasn't a riot lot, was it? Yeah. Okay. You know, and even before Christ and all that, you know, really the Aramaic Bible is more of a mind treatise of the original Bible dealing with the mind.

But, you know, Marcus Aurelius in his meditations and stuff, I just remember that line and it was, confine yourself to the present. It's been around a long time that we all gathered to. Oh, boy. You know, how do we stop suffering and what's going on with the mind? Who are we? What are we doing here? All these questions of which, you know, people are trying to find the answer in a mind that doesn't know the answers. Or translate it. We can't. Yeah. It's all related to the believed in entity. Yeah. There isn't a separate entity or an individual. And if that's the case, because this is also something to highlight, the lack of free will thing.

If that's the case, that the life through the people creates the climate change and destruction of the planet and the Holocaust and all of that, then no one is to be blamed. It is, again, the whole universe collaborating. And if there is no one to be blamed, there is absolute innocence of everyone and everything. So I am good enough. Everyone is good enough. It's the God to be blamed for all the disasters. Yeah. And it's the God that brings the solution too. Because it's the God or that life essence or universe. Yeah. Or that life essence or intelligence that brings people together and inspire others.

That brings the movement for the climate change or the revolutions or whatever it is. Yeah. And then when we step out from the human realm, the same very same thing happens amongst the ants or bees or birds or parasites or bacterias or galaxies, planets, universes. We are just a tiny little spectrum of, through which and as we are. Yeah. Through which and as which the universal intelligence expresses. And it all runs effortlessly when that narrative is not taken seriously. It all sorts itself out. It resolves. It changes. Changing all the time. And that's innate. It's inevitable. Inevitable. Absolutely. Yeah. And I like when you introduce that, Kay, you broaden the perspective.

You just, there's no single figure. Yes. It's just part of the individual. Yeah. It's just part of the individual. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's important. Yeah. And I think that's important. Yeah. And I think that's important. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. That's part of the Studios. Mm. Yeah. And so, you know, duality seeks to blame. Mm. And, and non-duality, Embraces. Embraces. It's, yes. It's an example of the First World War. Mm. Sixty. Sixty million people were killed. Those left coming back from Europe, the main part of them went on. Took them a little thing called the, the Spanish flu.

Yeah, Spanish flu. That wiped out 80 million. Mm. Mm. Without even thinking. I agree. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. So we're fatalists. Fatalists? No, there's nothing wrong in dying. But so, in terms of faith, I mean like that it's just all fate. Ah, fate. We're fatalists. Fate, okay, yeah. You know, like it's just, open up the natural essence and see where that takes you. You won't be fatalism then, but your life, what you are doing, you're living it. Just try it on. I remember Tony used that way of saying that, you know, she first heard that there is no self, and she said, oh, let's see how that fits the experience.

And since then, she's just cruising along very, very beautifully. Yeah, you care whether it's there or not. Yeah. Yeah, just try it on. See how the life is leaving you. See how it all happens. See if that could possibly... be a better, better sort of, better matching explanation of whatever is happening. Rather than choosing and making wrong choices and wrong decisions and having people who are stupid or unconscious or less conscious or all that. If that's just how life unfolds. Like Bob is also giving these beautiful examples of the pine tree or pine cone having a potential to become a tree. Or sperm and ovum having a potential to become a separate person.

Or a pattern or whatever. That's brilliance of life. No, there is no one there. There is no one who moves the sun in the galaxies or planet around it. It's just, it's no one who blows the wind or grows the grass. It's still that intelligence that is running the whole show. It's doing it so well. Perhaps it applies here as well. Perhaps us above, so below. And all the... Yeah, so maybe the way you don't beat your heart and you don't pump your blood. You don't grow your hair. You also don't think the thoughts. Or you don't see the seeing. Or you don't make, you don't switch on the lights so that they see.

Maybe it all is part of the functioning. And then you will be surprised to see how easy the life and how smoothly it flows. If you are just on the back seat watching it unfold. Well, that's the thing to do. Well, it has that. Let the rest, as I say, in the sun control singularity. See what it does. Like it. And it can be completely trusted in a sense, can't it? If that life essence is the great perfection, it's all culminating in every little moment, then that can be completely... I know it's not the person they're trusting it, but it can be trusted. That that's all operating from there.

Whilst this claiming of ownership is so dangerous in that it creates the fictitious self, it sits in the grave. When I claim ownership for these thoughts or actions... If the planet blows up tomorrow, are you going to care that it has? That's the freedom. Time's gone up. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, everyone. That was great.